WEBVTT - Break Free From Daily Burnout 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:04.400 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:07.280 Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stanobek. We're here every day bringing 0:00:07.280 --> 0:00:09.799 you the latest news from the world of business and finance, 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:13.600 plus technology, politics, economics, all harnessing the power of Business 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:17.119 Week reporters and editors, not to mention our journalists and 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:19.600 analyst in more than one and twenty countries. You can 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:23.200 download Bloomberg Business Week and iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot Com. 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:25.120 You can also listen to our radio show at two 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:27.840 pm Eastern Time on Bloomberg Radio or watch us on 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:31.560 YouTube search Bloomberg Global News. Well, we love to do 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:34.320 regular check ins when it comes to crypto. It's certainly 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:36.879 something that we talk about each and every day on 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:40.120 Quick take Stock. Katie Greidfeld, who's joining me right now, 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:43.360 We concre that each day at noon Eastern time. You 0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:46.080 can watch that at Bloomberg dot com slash qt. Someone 0:00:46.120 --> 0:00:48.200 who joins us all the time on Quick take Stock 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:51.920 is Judika Chow. She's head of OTC options trading at Kraken. 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:54.880 She joins us on Bloomberg Business Week Radio this afternoon 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:58.920 from New York City. Ju Think, how are you hey? Guys, good, 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:01.000 how are you We're doing getting ready for this three 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:02.800 day weekend, But before we get there, we got to 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:05.399 do a deep dive into bitcoin and what's been happening 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:09.360 with crypto Bitcoin down about one point five really testing 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:12.600 that mark up. We ask you all the time, do 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:15.280 you think to explain the volatility here? Why are we 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:17.479 seeing this recent sell off when we are testing forty 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:22.560 four dollars recently? Well, I think the crypto markets, in 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:26.039 bitcoin in particular, have been seeing a little bit of 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:30.000 a lack of conviction as it relates to UM to bitcoin. 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:33.240 You know, a lot of the longholders are already long UM, 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:36.360 and I think the some of the bears have paired 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:38.200 their positions, and so a lot of people are on 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:41.600 the sidelines, and that's kind of resulting in Bitcoin just 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:45.960 moving with the broader markets UM but sort of following 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:49.160 the trends of the NAZAC and what's going on globally 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:53.800 UM without some of the more Bitcoin specific factors at play. 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:55.320 And so I think that's kind of what's driving it 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:58.720 right now. We're definitely seeing more interest in other kinds 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:01.360 of trading like options and relatives and yield plates, but 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:03.480 I would say, in terms of the spot flows that 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:05.800 we're seeing on the OTC desk, it's actually more money 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:07.640 on the sidelines and not a lot of conviction in 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:09.960 the spot stays right now. Well, Jessicau, that's what I 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:11.760 want to talk about, is that you know you are 0:02:11.800 --> 0:02:14.480 seeing a lot of interest in trading. I mean, if 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:16.160 you look at the NASZAC one hundred, like you said, 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:18.480 if you look at options and derivatives, there's a lot 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:21.680 of activity there. Not a ton when it comes to 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:24.480 crypto though. I mean, if you look across exchanges right now, 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:28.480 crypto exchanges that ends, you have seen trading volumes drop. 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:31.080 And I'm curious. So if this is this sort of 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:33.799 malaise is to continue where you know we're sort of 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:37.400 range bound, sort of trading sideways, is that ultimately bad 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:39.600 news for crypto because I mean, at least when it 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:42.799 comes to uh some of the people I follow on Twitter, 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:45.360 it seems like the volatility is part of the fun. 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:51.480 I mean, there's no question that volumes are inversely proportional 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:54.320 to volatility. So if you looked at when we have 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:57.120 the bull run, it wasn't just the fact that bigoin 0:02:57.240 --> 0:03:00.560 was going up, but the volatility was realized was north 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:03.160 of a hundred, and that was sustained for months at 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:06.120 a time, and that was definitely good for volumes and 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:09.200 activity and kind of building momentum. And I think, like 0:03:09.320 --> 0:03:13.120 real economic momentum, um and momentum goes both ways, kind 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:15.880 of like inertia, so things sort of stop moving and 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:19.160 people stop talking about it, and I think that definitely 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:21.639 comes into plan. We're seeing that with bitcoin sitting at 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:25.120 a sixties seventy ball um. The other aspect is that 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:28.760 it usually is relative to what the other opportunities are 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:32.240 and so to the extent there is UH volatility or 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:35.840 relative volatility in the stock market, then capital might be 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:38.680 deployed there instead. The one thing I will say is 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:42.240 that on the option side, we do see um. We're 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:44.880 seeing very healthy flows and activity, and I think part 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:48.600 of the reason there is because with options there's a 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:52.880 wider range of more nuanced positions and bets that people 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:55.360 can put on different kinds of yield place so it's 0:03:55.400 --> 0:03:57.840 not as simple as just buying or selling. But yeah, 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:00.960 there's no question that overall, all, you know, as we 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:03.720 want damp and volatility as a sign of maturity um 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:06.800 when it comes to trading, volume and activity, it has 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:10.120 the sort of quieting effect. And something I think about 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:12.600 a lot is that there seems like there's no shortage 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:16.560 of enthusiasm in the broadbrush crypto space if you think 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:20.640 about all the enthusiasm around Web three, around Defy, around 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:25.039 the metaverse, but it seems like that isn't translating into 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:28.240 the price of bitcoin at all. So I'd love to 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:31.200 hear your thoughts on whether we're sort of seeing I 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:33.719 don't know, maybe a bifurcation in the space, maybe something 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:35.640 not as strong as that. But again, it just seems 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:38.080 like there is a lot of enthusiasm and things to 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:41.760 get excited about in the broader cryptocurrency universe, but not 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:46.560 necessarily when it comes to the prices of the coins. Definitely, 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:49.680 and this is something we've seen over the years. The 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:53.440 price of the coins is often driven by whales um 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:58.320 by very large healthy accumulation, unhealthy accumulation um It's really 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:02.560 the price action can deviate sometimes from what we're seeing 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:04.960 in terms of like the fundamentals on the ground. And 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:09.200 I think if I look back to like that happened 0:05:09.240 --> 0:05:11.400 in maybe more of a negative way, which is that 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:16.120 price was appreciating extremely rapidly, much more than some of 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:18.840 the actual progress that we were making in terms of 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:22.839 building out use cases and protocol development. Now one could 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:25.640 argue it's perhaps the opposite. There's prices a little bit 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:29.359 of lackluster given some inflation concerns, but there's more going 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:33.000 on in terms of building, investment in space, hiring in 0:05:33.000 --> 0:05:36.400 the space UM from traditional finance and tech, and so 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:38.479 I think a lot of these things will see play 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:41.880 out over the course of years as UM companies are 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:44.360 built in use cases are built, and it's not necessarily 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:47.360 reflected in price because those dynamics are a little bit different. 0:05:47.800 --> 0:05:49.960 Do you think that we only have about forty seconds 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:53.040 left with you? But I'm wondering, when you think about 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:55.920 the crypto universe, what is it we should be focused on. 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:58.360 What's it our that our investor audience should be focused 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:03.120 on in terms of catalysts move forward? Well, I think 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:06.719 right now there's definitely a pay attention to the macro environment, 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:09.960 mostly in terms of UM, in terms of volatility, but 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:12.320 also in terms of inflation. You know, I think with 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:14.039 the three of us have talked a lot about whether 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:16.280 or not crypto is an inflation hedge, and at some 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:19.279 point the tides will turn in. It actually will become 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:21.720 an inflation hedge, and I think being positioned right at 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:25.400 that time. The question is when the question is when. 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:28.520 I mean, we've had plenty of hot inflation, Prince haven't 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:31.000 really seen too much of it into crypto lately. But 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:33.680 to Jessica's point, it seems like a tech sock. Juso, 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:36.160 head of OTC Options trading at crack and joining us 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:38.599 on the phone from New York City. I want to 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:41.640 bring in James Army, who's an arts columnist for Bloomberg 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:43.440 business Week. James joins us on the phone from New 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:47.400 York City. James, I saw this story crossed this morning, 0:06:47.440 --> 0:06:50.360 and I immediately said we have to get James Tarmy 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:54.919 on Bloomberg business Week radio to explain what exactly is 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:58.400 happening and talk about it. Um DuPont Airis is sued 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:02.520 by museum that alleges she took antiques. What's going on here? 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:06.919 It's quite a story, and the long and short of 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:11.360 it is that, uh, this woman named Sabrina DuPont Wangenegger, 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:18.640 whose father was William K. DuPont Um, was uh gifted, 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:23.720 she says, um a serious of objects in twenty nineteen. Well, 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:28.080 her father died uh in, and it turned out that 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:31.080 there was a coddessil to his will that said that 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:35.679 some of these objects were supposed to go to, uh 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:37.800 this museum called Winter Okay, wait, I just want to 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:44.160 I just want to jump in yes. So, so basically 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:46.080 just think of it as like a little amendment to 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:48.680 his will that says, by the way, I want X 0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:52.320 number of objects to go to this museum. And the 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:54.840 museum is actually a museum that was founded by a 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:59.080 member of the DuPont family. This is a sprawling, very wealthy, 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:04.080 very old family um and they had a long history 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:09.400 of giving um objects to Winter churchs UM, an independent institution, 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:12.320 but the family had been very involved in it. Long 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:16.640 story short. Uh, She realizes, oh, wait, you know I 0:08:16.640 --> 0:08:21.840 should back up. If the objects in the will are 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:25.840 sold or given or gifted, great, no one is under 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:28.400 any obligation to give them back. It's just if these 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:30.560 things are still part of my estate, they can go 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:36.000 to the museum. So father dies, she informs the museum 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:38.920 that there's one thing less um in the will. It 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:41.320 rather in the estate that was in this kind of 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:45.400 coddissol and the museum says, great, thank you, takes the thing, 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:49.840 takes the objects. That's that until there's a major auction 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:54.959 um of this guy's estate and the daughter had included 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:58.280 some of the objects she'd been gifted. The museum says, 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:01.360 wait a second, youth, that these weren't part of the estate. 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:04.360 Now you're selling them, we want them back. It's there's 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:06.439 a lot of twists and turns, but what the real 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:12.360 takeaway is get your affairs in order, because there's no 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:17.599 way for the daughter to really prove that she received 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:20.240 the gifts to his father to a daughter. Yeah, it's 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:23.920 it's sorry, I'm I'm I'm talking a lot about It's well, 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:26.200 you need to because it's a really complicated story that 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:30.560 involves cottils and wills and antiques. That's a new word 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:33.079 for me. I love to reading this. And there's a 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:34.680 you know, there's a whole part about the codicil in 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:36.920 the story. And I mean, James, do we know what 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:40.080 objects that we're arguing over? Because okay, so the lawsuit 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:43.319 says that you know, she attempted to sell five antiques 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:47.080 valued at roughly two d thousand dollars. What what what 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:50.760 are these antiques? Do we know? So? Yeah, you know, 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:56.240 they're they're pieces of kind of American decorative arts. So 0:09:56.720 --> 0:10:01.319 there are various pieces of nature, but then there's also 0:10:01.400 --> 0:10:05.640 some documents that had historical significance. The thing to remember 0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:11.800 about this, though, is that it represents a very small 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:19.240 fraction of the overall estate. So the option of this 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:25.160 man's belongings brought in close to seven million dollars. What 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:29.240 they're arguing about represents maybe three of the overall estate. 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:32.760 And I spoke with her um after we kind of 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:38.520 discovered this suite, and she said that the entire process 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:43.800 was utterly absurd because it represented such a tiny part 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:47.800 of the estate. That and she told the museum about 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:50.800 the existence of the will. She didn't really have to 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:52.880 tell them if she was trying to defraud them. So 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:55.920 she's sort of outraged about this, and rather than settled 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:59.480 with them, she is actually fighting because she feels like 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:01.920 this is a sort of slap in the face given 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:04.240 her family has given many millions of dollars to the 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:08.720 museum over over the years. So that's what I wanted 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:11.439 to talk to you about, because you know, she told 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:13.800 you in an interview that she's very saddened by this 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:17.960 whole situation. Quote, I will absolutely defend my integrity, which 0:11:17.960 --> 0:11:19.640 I feel has been called into question, and I will 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:23.760 absolutely defend my father's wishes. So it's not about the 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:29.680 actual stuff for her, right, quite quite right, actually, But 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:32.360 is it about that for the museum? Sorry, go ahead, James, 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:37.200 you know this, I have, so I don't. The short 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:40.080 answer is for the museum, I don't know. They issued 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:43.480 a statement and wouldn't comment on the record. But there 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:46.400 are court documents that you have you can go through 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:49.240 that are part of this suit at the museum filed 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:54.040 in Delaware court UM. And in that these documents you 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:57.880 can actually see correspondence from them, and they are very 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:01.320 very careful in their correspondent with the estate and with 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:08.959 the daughter to say, listen, we're not calling your integrity 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:12.560 into question. We are not calling you a liar. We're 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:16.319 not saying that you sold these things. However, we as 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:21.160 an institution have a fiduciary duty to ensure that we 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:26.000 are UM following up on this because this was gifted 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:28.800 to us and we can't just walk away from it 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:33.640 because you say it's yours. So it's actually UM in 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:38.080 a certain respects not really about the money from an 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:40.240 outside of perspective, It doesn't seem like it's about the 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:43.160 money from either side, because of course Winter Term Museum 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:48.200 has around nineties thousand objects in this exquisite hundred and 0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:51.559 seventy five room mansion on a thousand acres of manager 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:54.520 of gardens. It's really exquisite. This is in this is 0:12:54.559 --> 0:13:00.240 in Delaware. Um. But but I think neither party is 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:06.559 particularly avaricious from the and this is from an outside perspective, 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:11.760 neither seems desperate for the money. Instead, they both seem 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:15.160 to be at least on the outside looking me and 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:19.800 pursuing it. On principle, James, what is your best guess 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:22.120 about how this ends? I mean, is this museum going 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:23.960 to end up with these objects at the end of 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:28.800 the day. You know, I really can't say, Um, what 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:31.240 I could can say, you know, I mean, I'm I'm 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:34.000 I'm not a legal expert on the street law. What 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:38.880 what I what I can say is that, um, both 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:47.240 sides appear to have equally compelling claimed Um. You know, 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:53.880 in the sense that, uh, there there is ample documentation 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:58.240 on the daughter's side to demonstrate that these were a gift. 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:02.040 But it's not rock salt a documentation, So it's not 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:03.880 like she has a smoking gun. And if she did 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:06.719 have a smoking gun where she could produce it, the 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:08.959 museum wouldn't have brought the lawsuit in the first place. 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:13.079 So you you have, on the daughter's side a long 0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:16.360 history of the father giving her gifts, and you have 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:19.400 the father actually having revised. And this is where it 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:23.520 gets even thorn here. The father then revised um what 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:26.320 he wanted to give to the museum three years later, 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:29.880 and then entered into a separate promised gift contract where 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:31.640 he included some of the stuff he was going to 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:35.000 give but not other stuff, which the daughter says demonstrates 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:36.840 that he had changed his mind and wanted to give 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:38.920 her these gifts in the first place. But there are 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:41.640 a lot of twists and turns, as I said earlier, 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:45.840 but I think that it actually has um much broader 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:48.600 resonance for those of us who are not members of 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:51.320 a sprawling billionaire family, and those of us who do 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:56.120 not run museums, which is that um. You know, oftentimes 0:14:56.840 --> 0:15:04.280 there can be informal interact some transactions between family members, 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:08.680 but if family members have obligations to other institutions, when 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:11.960 that dies, you have to issue some level of accounting 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:14.760 for the things that you have. And this is not 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:17.640 just a question that is facing the very wealthy or 0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:21.760 even the moderately wealthy. Um. This is something that faces 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:25.440 or that that many people who will be receiving things 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:30.440 in their parents or spouses. UM. States. Um, you need 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:33.040 to actually keep in mind. And that's why I think 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:35.360 that this is such a kind of compelling case, even 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:38.560 though the actual states in terms of dollar amounts are 0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:41.040 actually quite small. Yeah. That's a really good point, James, 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:43.720 because that's something that we hear a lot about, especially 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:47.080 with the wealth transfer that's happening between generations and the 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:50.280 historic wealth transfer that that's set to happen. Um. As 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:53.680 you know, the greatest generation ages out, and indeed baby 0:15:53.680 --> 0:15:58.040 boomers do as well. Uh, James, before we go, forgive 0:15:58.040 --> 0:15:59.720 me because I know that you're the arts columnist, and 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:04.160 I'm wondering how often you cover stories like this, Um, 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:07.640 just in the context of of Katie asked, what's you know, 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:10.240 what's next? How it ends? I want to know how 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:12.840 long it could take, because these things can be tied 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:17.560 up for a long time, right. Oh. Absolutely, unless there's 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:22.360 some settlements, this could easily take years. And UM, it's 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:29.960 it's it really depends on how um malleable or or 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:34.400 how willing to reach a compromise either party is. And UM, 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:37.560 I think at least you know, again, I didn't actually 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:39.280 speak to the museum on the records, so I can't 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:41.920 I can't actually speak to this. But from the daughter's side, 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:44.520 she's in budging because she feels like she is in 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:50.000 the moral and legal right. UM. And so there's a 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:52.480 strong possibility that this ends up is going to do court. 0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:56.240 So James, UM, what what comes next in the process here? 0:16:56.400 --> 0:16:57.720 What are you going to be looking out for you 0:16:57.720 --> 0:17:00.960 continue to follow the story? Well, is going to be discovery. 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:04.960 So they will actually both sides will actually keep adding 0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:08.600 documentation to the case. There will be UM, yet another 0:17:08.640 --> 0:17:13.600 affidavit from the UM from the daughter, the museum will 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:16.840 continue to add UM. The museum will continue to add 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:21.920 documentation in what's in a kind of process of exploration, 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:26.360 and then UM, if necessary, will go to trial. UM. 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:30.879 And that's that's sort of what I'm waiting on and 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:34.800 what we'll be watched. And James, the the woman at 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:39.120 the center of the Sabrina DuPont lnon Egger, UM, can 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:41.320 you talk a little bit about the way that her 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:44.480 dad's estate kind of change from being overseen by his 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:46.800 family office earlier in his life, but then towards the 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:52.320 end of his life he didn't have that same infrastructure. Yeah, so, UM, 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:55.879 I can't speak too much to it, but I what 0:17:56.040 --> 0:17:59.119 I what I can't say is that she basically talked 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:04.720 about him kind of scaling back his business activities and um, 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:06.760 as a result, he had less of a need for 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:11.280 a very kind of a large office to manage his affairs. 0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:15.679 So they had family advisors still, including a family lawyer 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:18.000 and a family accountant, but not people who were kind 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:22.040 of permanently on the pay roll. UM. And so you know, 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:26.520 he was a person her father was a person who 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:32.560 fought and sold and traded antiques as a hobby constantly. UM. 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:35.480 And you know, he collected one of the pre eminent 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:38.960 collections of Chippendale furniture and then sold it all in 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:42.560 the nineties when he um sold most of it in 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:46.679 the nineties when he became interested by something else. And 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:50.400 she told me that, you know, he had a very 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:55.000 fluid idea of collecting, which is that he didn't just 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:57.560 want to buy it and hold it. He was always 0:18:57.600 --> 0:18:59.959 on the lookout for something better. Than what he had 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:02.280 ad and when he found that he wouldn't keep the 0:19:02.320 --> 0:19:05.040 old thing, he would sell it, he would move on UM. 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:08.600 And so you know that is he was a man 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:13.880 of substantial means UM and that was totally possible. But 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:18.760 it meant that when he died, because he didn't have 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:21.800 this family office infrastructure in place anymore, it meant that 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:26.639 she was in charge of dealing with this pretty vast 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:30.320 amount of objects that she told me that there were 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:33.320 at least fifteen hundred maybe more. He had a gentleman's 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:40.320 farm in Delaware, UM, and it was a monumental undertaking 0:19:40.359 --> 0:19:44.320 because she was basically UM, she told me, doing it 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:47.800 on her own. And this again once again gets back 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:52.840 to this idea UM, that this has resonance for a 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:57.680 broader audience because it's really about UM trying to make 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:03.080 sure that there is some level of uh, not only documentation, 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:08.040 but accounting of of objects. And you know, frankly, I 0:20:08.040 --> 0:20:11.760 don't think I know a single person who has inventory 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:15.200 lists of their belongings. It's just not how most people 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:18.560 I know, even people who have lots of stuff or 0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:21.960 lots of questables, are at works really work. And I 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:24.360 think that it can be a weak up call when 0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:27.680 you actually hear about this. Well, James, it's it's it's 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:29.840 not just kind of you know, you don't want to 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:31.679 make that call get in touch with a lawyer, but 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:33.520 you'd also people I don't think want to think about 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:37.439 mortality right and how things yea, how things go at 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:40.960 the end, Um, James, this was a really fantastic deep 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:43.600 dive into a story I had no idea about. We 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:46.159 really appreciate you taking the time and giving us all 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:48.240 the details on it. James Tommy is arts calumnist for 0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:50.320 Bloomberg Business Week. You got to check this story out. 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:53.880 It's available online and on the Bloomberg terminal. Well, I've 0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:56.680 been really looking forward this week to speaking to our 0:20:56.760 --> 0:21:00.399 next guest. She's got a really, really interesting back ground. 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:03.639 She's an entrepreneur, she's a best selling author, she's a 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:07.680 keynote speaker. But before this, she was a refugee UH 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:10.760 from the former Soviet Union, coming to the United States 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:13.879 at just the age of thirteen. She's also worked at 0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:18.080 places like McKinsey and Company and Microsoft, UH and more. 0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:22.840 Her new book is called The Awesome Human Project. Break 0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:26.119 Free from Daily Burnout, struggle Less and Thrive more in 0:21:26.240 --> 0:21:29.280 work and life. Natalie Cogan joins us now she's the 0:21:29.280 --> 0:21:31.320 founder of Happier Inc. As well. She joins us on 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:35.359 the phone from Boston. Natalie, how are you so thrilled 0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:37.440 to be here? Thank you, Well, we're thrilled to have you. 0:21:37.600 --> 0:21:40.040 Before we talked about the book, I just want you 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:42.440 to take us back to that moment that you realized 0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:45.320 you wanted to sort of make this change in your life, 0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:48.560 because you have these experiences that I think, uh, a 0:21:48.600 --> 0:21:52.280 lot of our audience has working for large firms, working 0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:55.239 in the consulting business. Uh, what was happening in your 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:58.280 life at that point. Yeah, it's a great question, you know, 0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:00.880 coming here as a refugee, I have the American dream. 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:03.639 You know my parents and I my parents sacrificed everything 0:22:03.680 --> 0:22:05.600 to bring me here. So I had the American dream. 0:22:05.640 --> 0:22:07.960 And here I was. I didn't speak English when we came, 0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:10.359 and here I was at mckensey and I was in 0:22:10.480 --> 0:22:12.919 venture capital at the age of five. There's fewer than 0:22:12.960 --> 0:22:16.520 six percent women in VC. I was, you know, doing uh, 0:22:16.800 --> 0:22:22.520 really meaningful work, but uh, always at the expense of myself. 0:22:22.800 --> 0:22:26.600 I really believe that emotions have nothing to do with work. 0:22:26.640 --> 0:22:29.200 I kind of followed that old school, a dodge of 0:22:29.280 --> 0:22:31.720 leave emotions at the door. Um. No one ever talked 0:22:31.720 --> 0:22:34.280 to me about that, and so UM I had achieved 0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:38.000 a tremendous amount of success, but inside I was really struggling. 0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:43.119 UM just overwhelmed and exhausted. And as a leader I 0:22:43.359 --> 0:22:45.560 in all these companies, I always thought my job was 0:22:45.600 --> 0:22:48.080 to pretend that everything was amazing, no matter how I 0:22:48.480 --> 0:22:51.119 how I felt. And it got to a point where 0:22:51.240 --> 0:22:53.800 I couldn't. I couldn't hold it all in anymore. And 0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:56.680 I several years ago, went through a really severe burnout, 0:22:56.760 --> 0:22:58.520 which is something I know a lot of folks relate 0:22:58.600 --> 0:23:01.879 to right now. And that got me to a place 0:23:01.920 --> 0:23:04.719 where I couldn't just will myself through anymore. I couldn't 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:07.560