WEBVTT - Become a supercommunicator, with Charles Duhigg 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:09.320 Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning. 0:00:10.440 --> 0:00:15.720 This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:18.520 episode is going to be a longer one part of 0:00:18.520 --> 0:00:21.680 the series where I interview fascinating people about how they 0:00:21.720 --> 0:00:25.599 take their days from great to awesome and their advice 0:00:25.640 --> 0:00:27.640 for the rest of us. So today I am delighted 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:30.720 to welcome Charles Duhig to the show. Charles is the 0:00:30.760 --> 0:00:34.400 author of several books, including the Power of Habit and 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:38.560 his latest Super Communicators, which is about how to unlock 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:41.839 the secret language of connection. So, Charles, welcome to the show. 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:42.800 Thank you for having me on. 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:46.639 Yeah, so, tell our listeners a little bit about yourself. 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:50.440 Yeah. So, I live in Santa Cruz, California. I have 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:55.000 two kids, both of them teenagers, both boys, And I'm 0:00:55.040 --> 0:00:57.320 a writer at the New Yorker magazine And as you mentioned, 0:00:57.400 --> 0:00:59.880 the author of a couple of books, and Super Communicators, 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:01.480 the one that came out earlier. 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:06.120 This year Awesome. And do you consider yourself a good communicator? 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:08.560 Are you learning better at it now? 0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:10.840 You know, this book actually started because I fell into 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:13.240 this bad pattern with my wife, which I'm imagining many 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:16.240 people listening can relate to which is I would come 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:17.880 home after a long day at work and I would 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:20.720 sart complaining about my day, and you know, my boss 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:23.280 doesn't appreciate me, and my coworkers don't understand what a 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:25.800 genius I am. And my wife would offer this really 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:27.479 good advice. This is something like, why don't you take 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:28.880 your boss out to lunch and you guys can get 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:31.039 to know each other a little bit more, And instead 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:32.840 of being able to hear her advice, I would get 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:35.160 even more upset and say, like, you're supposed to be 0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:37.319 supporting me, why aren't you outraged on my behalf? And 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:39.160 then she'd get upset because I was attacking her for 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:42.160 giving me good advice. And so that's kind of how 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:45.320 the book began, is me calling researchers and saying, I'm 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:48.840 theoretically a professional communicator, right, I'm a journalist. Why do 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:51.400 I keep falling into this pattern again and again and 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:53.600 again of miscommunicating? 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:57.880 Yeah, because we all have different ways of communicating, it 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:01.480 turns out, and one of the interests things about super 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:04.640 communicators is you talk about how there are three kinds 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:08.520 of conversations, and most of us don't necessarily think about 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:11.320 what kind of conversation we are having sounds like you 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:14.680 and your wife were having two entirely separate conversations. 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:17.360 In that case, that's exactly right. Yeah. So what researchers 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:19.720 have found, and we're actually living through this golden age 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:22.960 of understanding communication for really the first time because of 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:25.920 advances in neural imaging and data collection, And what they 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:27.960 found is that when we have a discussion, we tend 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:29.640 to think of it as being about one thing, right, 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:31.959 We're talking about my day, where to go on vacation, 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:35.400 or the kids' grades. But actually every discussion is made 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:38.880 up of different kinds of conversations, and those conversations they 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:40.520 tend to fall into one of three buckets. As you 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:44.000 just mentioned. There's these practical conversations where we're talking about 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:47.600 making plans or solving problems together. But then there's also 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:50.480 emotional conversations where I tell you what I'm feeling and 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:52.919 I don't want you to solve my feelings. I want 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:57.400 you to empathize and relate. And then there's social conversations, 0:02:57.400 --> 0:02:59.080 which is about how we relate to each other in 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:02.600 society and the identities that are important to us. And 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:05.360 what researchers have found is that if you're having different 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:08.800 kinds of conversations at the same moment, it's very, very 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:12.160 difficult to completely hear each other and it's almost impossible 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:14.359 to connect. And you're exactly right, that's what was happening 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:16.920 with me and my wife. I was having an emotional conversation, 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:20.480 she was having a practical conversation, and they're both equally 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:23.680 legitimate conversations, but because we weren't having the same kinds 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:27.320 of conversation, we couldn't really hear each other. It's within 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:30.080 psychology this has become known as the matching principle. The 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:34.360 successful communication requires having the same kind of conversation at 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:37.440 the same moment, and then you can move from conversation 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:40.360 to conversation together as long as you're aligned. 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:44.400 Well, it sounds like then, in order to kind of 0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:47.160 be a better listener, which I'm sure many people would 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:49.040 like to be, one of the first things you need 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:52.280 to do is figure out what kind of conversation. Yeah, 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:54.480 the person you're talking with is hoping to have. 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:56.680 That's exactly right, and one of the best ways to 0:03:56.720 --> 0:03:58.600 do that, well, so I'll tell you how how to 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:00.840 do it. With kids. They actually teach this in schools, 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:04.960 is that when someone comes up to you, a student 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:07.800 or one of your kids with a problem, you say, look, 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:09.520 do you want for this thing that you're talking to 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:11.200 me about? Or not even about a problem, just about 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:12.120 anything they want to talk about. 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:13.120 You say, do you. 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:15.080 Want me to help you? Do you want me to 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:17.360 hug you? Or do you want me to hear you? 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:20.719 Which are the three kinds of conversations, right, the practical, emotional, 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:23.360 and the social. And what you'll find is kids can 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:25.800 tell you right away like no, no I don't. I 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:28.000 don't I just need you, like I don't need your help, 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:30.600 I just need a hug, right or or no, no, 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:32.120 I don't need a hug. I just need you to 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:34.400 hear what's going on and listen to me, because it's 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:38.520 important that I get this across. Now. For adults, you know, 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:41.400 in the business world, for instance, it's hard to say 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:43.640 do you want to be helped, hugged or heard because 0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:45.640 they might go to HR so. 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:48.440 The hug might not work so well exactly exactly. 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:52.200 So the better way to do this is to ask questions, 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:54.880 and in particular to ask a kind of question that's 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:57.880 own as a deep question, which asks about our values 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:02.120 or beliefs or experiences, which can sound a little intimidating, 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:03.880 But it's as simple as like, if you meet someone 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:06.720 who's a doctor, instead of saying, oh, you know what 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:09.320 hospital do you work at, asking them, oh, what made 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:12.280 you decide to go to medical school? That invites them 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:13.800 to tell you something about who they are. 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:19.480 Well, it sounds like, you know, you're asking deeper questions. 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:22.080 It's kind of the opposite of small talk. I mean, 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:24.200 I know you have a section in the book about 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:28.280 taking some shallow questions and making them deeper. I wonder 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:29.760 if you could give some examples of them. 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:33.960 Yeah. Yeah, it's anything that basically asks people, instead of 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:37.160 the facts of their life, asking them about how they 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:40.880 feel about their life. Right, So let small talk questions 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:43.120 just shallow questions would be like, you know, and these 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:44.640 are the easiest things to do. Oh you meet someone 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:46.040 at a party and you're like, oh, you know, what 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:48.560 part of town do you live in? You know, do 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:50.279 you know my friend Jim he lives up in the 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:52.919 heights too. A better question would be like, oh, you 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:54.600 live in the heights, Like what do you like about 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:56.880 the heights? Like is there a real sense of community there? 0:05:57.200 --> 0:06:00.440 What drew you to that? Or were you find out, 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:02.840 you know, you bump into someone who's from your hometown, 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:05.160 and an inevitable, shallow question is you know, where'd you 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:08.280 go to high school? But then the next question, if 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:10.480 it's a deep question, could be what was high school 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:12.279 like for you? Like did you enjoy it high school? 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:16.040 I was at a meeting where I was sitting next 0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:17.880 to a guy and we were like just making conversation 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:22.040 before the meeting started, and he mentioned that his I 0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:23.800 asked him when he did that weekend and he said, oh, 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:26.240 I went to my kids graduation, and he was like 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:30.080 it was fantastic. Now the easiest thing to do and say, oh, congratulations, 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:32.839 that's great, But instead I asked him a deep question, 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:34.760 I said, and it doesn't seem like a deep question, 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:38.000 but it just seems like an interesting, interested question, which is, oh, 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:39.680 that's amazing. What did it feel like to watch your 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:42.760 kid walk across that stage? Like like were you proud 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:46.680 or like sad? That's the kind of question that invites 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:50.680 someone to share who they are. And more importantly, when 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:53.080 someone talks about their kid going to graduate, going to 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:57.159 their kids graduation, that's probably a somewhat emotional topic for them, 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:01.599 and instead of simply saying graduate. I matched him and 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:03.920 I said, oh, tell me about that. What how did 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:06.480 it feel to watch your kid walk across that stage? 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:09.320 And we had a great conversation for just like five minutes, 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:11.679 and then we went on and we did the meeting, 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:14.000 but we felt more connected to each other because we 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:14.960 had become aligned. 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:20.800 Yeah, exactly. I mean I think it's it's partly. You know, 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:24.200 small talk gets this reputation as being incredibly dull, and 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:27.360 it often is, but that's because the questions don't invite 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:30.960 further conversation. Whereas you know you're passing the time talking 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:33.720 about a deep emotional issue, it going to make the 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:36.000 time go a lot faster. Yeah, we're going to take 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:37.880 a quick ad break and then we'll be back with 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:48.280 some more tips on being a better communicator. Well, I 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:50.840 am back with Charles Douhig, who is the author of 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:53.800 the book Super Communicators and also the book The Power 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:57.720 of Habit. He's been sharing some tips on having better conversations. 0:07:58.000 --> 0:07:59.680 Although I think one of the issues a lot of 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:02.280 us have with having good conversations, and you could tell 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:04.120 me if this is you know something a lot of 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:06.480 people do. We're always thinking about what we should be 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:12.520 saying next, which means that your brain isn't necessarily on 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:13.600 what the person is. 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:16.280 Yeah, No, absolutely. And in the book, we have a 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:19.600 bunch of stories, right the Supercommunicators is really built. There's 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:22.960 a story about a guy who's a CIA officer as 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:25.840 to recruit overseas spies that is just terrible at the 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:29.040 job until he learns how to how to genuinely listen 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:32.440 to other people. There's another story about the making of 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:36.360 The Big Bang Theory, the TV show, where they think 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:38.480 the show was not a hit at first. It was 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:41.280 a total flop until they figured out how to show 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:44.520 that the characters were listening to each other. And one 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:46.600 of the things that we know about listening is that 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:50.160 you're exactly right. Oftentimes in a conversation, we get a 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:52.520 little focused on what we're going to say next, because 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:54.600 we want to sound smart, right, We want to we 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:56.760 want to sound clever, and we want to sort of 0:08:56.800 --> 0:09:00.960 share something about ourselves. But the the more we listen, 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:05.640 the more we automatically sound clever and share with ourselves, 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:08.440 even if it's not premeditated. And there's a trick to 0:09:08.480 --> 0:09:11.640 getting yourself to listen closely to another person, and it's 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:15.480 called looping for understanding the goal of looping for understanding 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:17.280 is not only to listen closely, it's to prove to 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:18.959 the other person that you've been listening to them. And 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:21.600 there's three steps to it. Step one is to ask 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:25.040 a question, preferably a deep question. Step two is to 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:28.440 repeat back in your own words which you heard them say. 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:32.199 Don't mimic them, but like really try and prove to them, Oh, 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:34.040 I hear what you're saying. I think what you're saying 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:36.679 is this. And then step three, and this is the 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:39.440 step I always forget, ask if you got it right? 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:42.000 Because when you ask if you got it right, what 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:45.000 you're actually asking is can I have your permission to 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:48.760 acknowledge that I've been listening to you. Now, think about 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:50.920 what you have to do in that conversation instead of 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:52.640 thinking about what you're going to say. You have to 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:55.719 pay enough attention to the other person that you can 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:57.480 repeat back what they're going to tell you in your 0:09:57.520 --> 0:09:59.920 own words, and you're hopefully going to get it right 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:01.280 when we put. 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:03.080 Ourselves because if they tell you you're wrong, what do 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:03.360 you do? 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:05.800 Then? Well, then you say, okay, I'm sorry, they explain 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:09.040 it to me again. I missed something right, And the 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:11.120 goal here is like, how do we how do we 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:14.600 how do we get ourselves to listen more closely? We 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:16.920 get ourselves to listen more closely by paying closer attention. 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:22.840 Yeah, so lots of different tips here for being a 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:28.400 good listener. But part of this is about treating conversations seriously. 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:34.479 And one of the things you suggest in super communicators 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:39.439 is actually doing some preparation for a conversation, and not 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:41.880 just difficult conversations, because we're going to talk about difficult 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:45.480 conversations in a minute, but even just like, let's say 0:10:45.520 --> 0:10:49.199 I'm going out to lunch with a friend of mine 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:52.559 I haven't seen in six months, so obviously I'm probably 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:54.559 looking forward to it. You know, it's a thing I've 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:56.640 gotten on my calendar, probably had it there for at 0:10:56.679 --> 0:10:58.800 least a week or two, so I'm excited about it. 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:02.880 How we should I prepare for that in order to 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:05.160 make it more meaningful for both of us? 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:07.680 Yeah, So it's a great question, right because and you 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:10.480 probably already do. Some of this is that as you're 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:13.480 anticipating seeing your friend, you're thinking to yourself, I'm really 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:15.200 curious I'm going to ask her about this or I'm 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:16.960 going to ask her about that. I wonder what's going 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:19.040 on with her kids. Last time we talked, she was 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:21.040 having some middle school problems, and I wonder if they've 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:24.640 resolved that. You're already preparing for that conversation, and so 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:27.520 the question is is how can we do that all 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:29.800 the time? How can we make that a habit? Well, 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:31.800 there was a study that was done by Harvard Business 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:34.640 School where they brought in a bunch of students, Harvard 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:36.480 Business School students, this was like in their first month 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:39.840 of school, and they told them, Okay, in a couple 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:43.319 of minutes, you're going to have a conversation with a stranger. Now, 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:45.120 having a conversation with a stranger is like one of 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:48.400 the most anxiety producing things you can ask someone to do, 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:50.960 right like always, because we don't know what we're going 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:52.400 to ask about, we don't know if we have anything 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:54.920 in common. And they said, before you have this conversation, 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:56.200 what we want you to do is we want you 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:59.439 to do this just ten second exercise. Take out a 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:02.560 piece of paper and write down three things you might 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:05.160 want to talk about, or three questions you might want 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:07.560 to ask, or just three topics that are interesting to you. 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:09.840 They can be stupid, right, like, you know, are you 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:12.280 going to the party this weekend? Did you catch last 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:15.880 night's game? And they said, okay, take ten seconds, write 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:18.360 down those three questions and then put them in your 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:21.360 pocket and go have the conversation. So students did this, 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:22.920 They wrote down their three things, they went and they 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:25.760 had the conversations, and afterwards they pulled the students and 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:27.400 they asked them, did you guys talk about the things 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:29.880 you wrote down? And most of the students said no, like, 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:33.320 actually it never came up. But on the other hand, like, 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:37.920 the conversation was so much less anxiety producing for me 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:40.800 and went so much better than I anticipated, because I 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:42.960 knew that if we hit like an awkward silence, I 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:45.880 had those questions in my back pocket, and the fact 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:47.520 that they were in my back pocket meant that I 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:51.920 didn't even have to I didn't even have to ask them. Oftentimes, 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:54.439 when we're going to have a conversation with someone, particularly 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:57.120 an important, meaningful conversation, one of the best things we 0:12:57.160 --> 0:12:59.839 can do is just sit down and ask ourselves, what 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:02.600 is one thing that I want to tell this person about, Like, 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:04.600 what's one thing that's important to me that I want 0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:07.520 to share with them, and equally, what is one question 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:11.480 that you absolutely want to ask that person And you 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:14.440 might get to that topic and that question in your conversation. 0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:17.040 But the fact that you've thought a little bit about 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:19.959 what what your goals are for the conversations, that you've 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:22.040 tried to envision what the other person's goals are for 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:24.600 the conversations, that's going to make it so much more 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:27.439 natural to find the things you actually care about. 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:33.000 Wonderful a good idea for better conversation there. But you know, 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:35.800 some conversations, you know, probably if you're just having a 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:39.400 random conversation with another student at Harvard Business School, it 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:44.240 might be just casual, you know, not particularly fraught. I 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:48.960 know a lot of people, especially you know, charged political environments, 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:53.400 lots of topics that are heeded for people these days. 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:56.000 As you know, this will air after the election, but 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:58.480 I know a lot of people are going to be 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:02.400 visiting extended family, maybe people who have different political opinions 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:05.600 than them. I mean, without getting into the politics itself, 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:09.680 how do we have conversations with people that we know 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:14.000 disagree with us on a lot. Yeah, if we're also 0:14:14.200 --> 0:14:19.160 trying to maintain the relationship. So maybe picture Thanksgiving dinner, 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:23.160 aunts or uncle who disagrees with you vehemently on everything. 0:14:24.000 --> 0:14:26.440 How does that work well? So the first thing I 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:29.800 would say is, it's not that this is unusual, right, 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:32.920 There's lots of things that we disagree with our best 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:36.600 friends on or our family members. In fact, if you 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:40.200 think about like America, like what's made us strong, it's 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:43.640 that we are really good at disagreeing with each other 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:47.680 and then working together. The Constitutional Convention was basically a 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:50.280 bunch of people coming together who hated each other, and 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:52.040 all they did was yell at each other for three 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:56.240 months straight, and then they wrote a constitution together. Having 0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:59.600 conversations with people who don't agree with us, that's an 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:03.840 important part of conversation, and that's one of the nice 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:06.120 things about communication. And so the question is how do 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:08.160 we do it right? So the first thing I would 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:10.360 say is that oftentimes when people go into that conversation 0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:13.280 they are feeling really anxious. They're not anxious necessarily about 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:15.880 the topic of the conversation, They're anxious about what the 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:18.640 conversation is going to be, Like, you know, is Jim 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:21.120 going to say something that offends me so much that 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:23.240 like it's really hard for me to continue having dinner 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:25.080 with him. Am I going to say the wrong thing? 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:28.800 And am I gonna set Susie off by saying something 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:31.440 that offends her that I didn't even realize was offensive. 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:33.320 And so one of the best things we can do 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:36.640 for those conversations is we can start them by saying, 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:40.760 I want to have a discussion about something, and I 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:43.080 want I know that it's going to be awkward, and 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:45.960 that's okay, Like it's okay for this conversation to be awkward. 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:49.240 It should kind of be awkward, and I might say 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:51.480 the wrong thing because in the space between my brain 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:54.000 and my lips what I'm trying to get across sometimes 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:55.920 it gets garbled. And I hope you'll forgive me if 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:58.200 I say if I say things wrong, and I want 0:15:58.240 --> 0:15:59.640 you to know that if you say the wrong thing, 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:03.800 I will absolutely forgive you. But talking about this and 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:08.040 understanding how you see this situation it's important to me, 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:10.480 and so if you're willing, I'd love to have a 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:13.640 conversation with you about it. What study of the study 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:16.960 shows is if you start a conversation by acknowledging that 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:19.080 it might be hard, that it might be awkward, by 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:21.560 apologizing and saying I go into this with the best 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:24.240 of intentions, and I hope you do too. It can 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:28.080 transform how difficult that conversation is. That doesn't mean everyone's 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:30.520 going to agree with each other, but it does mean 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:32.160 that it's going to go much easier. 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:39.040 And it seems that partly it's just about being polite, right, 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:43.560 that use remembering our manners even when it is a 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:47.600 heated conversation can go a long way. And that was 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:51.960 one of the more fascinating studies you referenced in this 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:55.480 book is that when people well you can describe it, 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:58.520 and people use their manners online, they even manage to 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:01.080 turn down the temperatural absolutely. 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:03.160 It turns out that online if you say please and 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:07.520 thank you, it can transform the tenor of the discussion. 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:11.000 And I think the reason why is because you know, 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:12.959 when you think about it, in these conversations that are 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:16.919 tough conversations, what's the goal. If your goal is I 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:18.720 want to give that person a peace in my mind, 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:21.200 or I want to prove to them that I'm right 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:24.360 and there wrong, it's not that surprising that the conversation 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:27.399 is not going to go very well, right, But the 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:30.080 goal of a conversation shouldn't be to prove to make 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:32.080 the other person agree with you. It shouldn't even be 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:34.719 to impress them that you're smarter get them to like you. 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:38.080 The goal of a conversation is just to understand what 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:40.600 the other person is trying to say and to speak 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:43.920 in such a way that they understand you. And when 0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:45.320 we set that as our goal, when we go into 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:47.520 a conversation, we say, look, I might disagree with you, 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:49.960 but I genuinely want to understand why you see the 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:53.560 world this way. All of a sudden, that conversation becomes 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:57.159 much easier, and that politeness that you mentioned, that's a 0:17:57.200 --> 0:17:59.640 signal that we want to do that when I say 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:02.040 please and thank you, when I say, you know, that's 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:03.879 a really really good point. I disagree with you, but 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:06.440 I think you made that point really really well. What 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:11.320 we're really saying is it is my goal to understand 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:15.600 you as my primary objective. Everything else is secondary to that. 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:18.440 And when we feel like someone is listening to us, 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:21.800 we become much more likely to listen to them in response. 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:27.000 And I think partly it's just that when we're communicating, 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:30.160 we were seeing each other, or we're using our voices. 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:33.439 I mean, you can hear more of that, that it's calm, 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:38.960 that it's respectful versus online, when you're just seeing print, 0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:43.240 it's probably easy to take the worst possible explanation for 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:45.919 somebody's sayings. So they say give me your evidence, you 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:48.280 imagine them shouting over you give me your evidence, as 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:50.760 opposed to genuinely life. I'd like to see what you're 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:51.359 basing this on. 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:54.320 Yeah, no, And think about sarcasm, right, Like, if I 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:57.160 said something sarcastic, you know immediately that I mean sarcastic 0:18:57.200 --> 0:18:59.159 because you can hear it my voice. But when I 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:02.240 type something stark, you have no idea. You think of 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:04.920 just being a jerk. And I think that that's really 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:08.840 really important, is that different channels of communication have different 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:11.840 strengths and weaknesses. And when we get into trouble, it's 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:15.280 when we forget that there's different rules, different rules for 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:18.119 different channels. Right that when I'm talking to you, I 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:21.360 can say something sarcastic, but when I'm online, I shouldn't 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:23.360 be sarcastic because you're not going to hear the sarcasm 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:26.359 in my voice. It's not that these different channels of 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:29.520 communication are better or worse, or that some of them 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:33.520 are terrible it's that they each have a different set 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:35.760