1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning. 2 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's 3 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: episode is going to be a longer one part of 4 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: the series where I interview fascinating people about how they 5 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 1: take their days from great to awesome and their advice 6 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 1: for the rest of us. So today I am delighted 7 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: to welcome Charles Duhig to the show. Charles is the 8 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: author of several books, including the Power of Habit and 9 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 1: his latest Super Communicators, which is about how to unlock 10 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 1: the secret language of connection. So, Charles, welcome to the show. 11 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me on. 12 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, so, tell our listeners a little bit about yourself. 13 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. So, I live in Santa Cruz, California. I have 14 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 2: two kids, both of them teenagers, both boys, And I'm 15 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 2: a writer at the New Yorker magazine And as you mentioned, 16 00:00:57,400 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 2: the author of a couple of books, and Super Communicators, 17 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 2: the one that came out earlier. 18 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: This year Awesome. And do you consider yourself a good communicator? 19 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: Are you learning better at it now? 20 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 2: You know, this book actually started because I fell into 21 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 2: this bad pattern with my wife, which I'm imagining many 22 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 2: people listening can relate to which is I would come 23 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 2: home after a long day at work and I would 24 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 2: sart complaining about my day, and you know, my boss 25 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 2: doesn't appreciate me, and my coworkers don't understand what a 26 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 2: genius I am. And my wife would offer this really 27 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:27,479 Speaker 2: good advice. This is something like, why don't you take 28 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 2: your boss out to lunch and you guys can get 29 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 2: to know each other a little bit more, And instead 30 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 2: of being able to hear her advice, I would get 31 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 2: even more upset and say, like, you're supposed to be 32 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 2: supporting me, why aren't you outraged on my behalf? And 33 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 2: then she'd get upset because I was attacking her for 34 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 2: giving me good advice. And so that's kind of how 35 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,320 Speaker 2: the book began, is me calling researchers and saying, I'm 36 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 2: theoretically a professional communicator, right, I'm a journalist. Why do 37 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 2: I keep falling into this pattern again and again and 38 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 2: again of miscommunicating? 39 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, because we all have different ways of communicating, it 40 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: turns out, and one of the interests things about super 41 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: communicators is you talk about how there are three kinds 42 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 1: of conversations, and most of us don't necessarily think about 43 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: what kind of conversation we are having sounds like you 44 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 1: and your wife were having two entirely separate conversations. 45 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 2: In that case, that's exactly right. Yeah. So what researchers 46 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 2: have found, and we're actually living through this golden age 47 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 2: of understanding communication for really the first time because of 48 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 2: advances in neural imaging and data collection, And what they 49 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 2: found is that when we have a discussion, we tend 50 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 2: to think of it as being about one thing, right, 51 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:31,959 Speaker 2: We're talking about my day, where to go on vacation, 52 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 2: or the kids' grades. But actually every discussion is made 53 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 2: up of different kinds of conversations, and those conversations they 54 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 2: tend to fall into one of three buckets. As you 55 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 2: just mentioned. There's these practical conversations where we're talking about 56 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 2: making plans or solving problems together. But then there's also 57 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 2: emotional conversations where I tell you what I'm feeling and 58 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 2: I don't want you to solve my feelings. I want 59 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 2: you to empathize and relate. And then there's social conversations, 60 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 2: which is about how we relate to each other in 61 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 2: society and the identities that are important to us. And 62 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 2: what researchers have found is that if you're having different 63 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 2: kinds of conversations at the same moment, it's very, very 64 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 2: difficult to completely hear each other and it's almost impossible 65 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,359 Speaker 2: to connect. And you're exactly right, that's what was happening 66 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 2: with me and my wife. I was having an emotional conversation, 67 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 2: she was having a practical conversation, and they're both equally 68 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 2: legitimate conversations, but because we weren't having the same kinds 69 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 2: of conversation, we couldn't really hear each other. It's within 70 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 2: psychology this has become known as the matching principle. The 71 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 2: successful communication requires having the same kind of conversation at 72 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 2: the same moment, and then you can move from conversation 73 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 2: to conversation together as long as you're aligned. 74 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: Well, it sounds like then, in order to kind of 75 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: be a better listener, which I'm sure many people would 76 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: like to be, one of the first things you need 77 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: to do is figure out what kind of conversation. Yeah, 78 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: the person you're talking with is hoping to have. 79 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 2: That's exactly right, and one of the best ways to 80 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 2: do that, well, so I'll tell you how how to 81 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 2: do it. With kids. They actually teach this in schools, 82 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 2: is that when someone comes up to you, a student 83 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 2: or one of your kids with a problem, you say, look, 84 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 2: do you want for this thing that you're talking to 85 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 2: me about? Or not even about a problem, just about 86 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 2: anything they want to talk about. 87 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: You say, do you. 88 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 2: Want me to help you? Do you want me to 89 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 2: hug you? Or do you want me to hear you? 90 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:20,719 Speaker 2: Which are the three kinds of conversations, right, the practical, emotional, 91 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 2: and the social. And what you'll find is kids can 92 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 2: tell you right away like no, no I don't. I 93 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 2: don't I just need you, like I don't need your help, 94 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,600 Speaker 2: I just need a hug, right or or no, no, 95 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 2: I don't need a hug. I just need you to 96 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 2: hear what's going on and listen to me, because it's 97 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 2: important that I get this across. Now. For adults, you know, 98 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 2: in the business world, for instance, it's hard to say 99 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 2: do you want to be helped, hugged or heard because 100 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 2: they might go to HR so. 101 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: The hug might not work so well exactly exactly. 102 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 2: So the better way to do this is to ask questions, 103 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 2: and in particular to ask a kind of question that's 104 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 2: own as a deep question, which asks about our values 105 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 2: or beliefs or experiences, which can sound a little intimidating, 106 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 2: But it's as simple as like, if you meet someone 107 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:06,720 Speaker 2: who's a doctor, instead of saying, oh, you know what 108 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 2: hospital do you work at, asking them, oh, what made 109 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,280 Speaker 2: you decide to go to medical school? That invites them 110 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 2: to tell you something about who they are. 111 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 1: Well, it sounds like, you know, you're asking deeper questions. 112 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: It's kind of the opposite of small talk. I mean, 113 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: I know you have a section in the book about 114 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 1: taking some shallow questions and making them deeper. I wonder 115 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: if you could give some examples of them. 116 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's anything that basically asks people, instead of 117 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 2: the facts of their life, asking them about how they 118 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 2: feel about their life. Right, So let small talk questions 119 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 2: just shallow questions would be like, you know, and these 120 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 2: are the easiest things to do. Oh you meet someone 121 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 2: at a party and you're like, oh, you know, what 122 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 2: part of town do you live in? You know, do 123 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 2: you know my friend Jim he lives up in the 124 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:52,919 Speaker 2: heights too. A better question would be like, oh, you 125 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:54,600 Speaker 2: live in the heights, Like what do you like about 126 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 2: the heights? Like is there a real sense of community there? 127 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 2: What drew you to that? Or were you find out, 128 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,840 Speaker 2: you know, you bump into someone who's from your hometown, 129 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 2: and an inevitable, shallow question is you know, where'd you 130 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 2: go to high school? But then the next question, if 131 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 2: it's a deep question, could be what was high school 132 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 2: like for you? Like did you enjoy it high school? 133 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 2: I was at a meeting where I was sitting next 134 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 2: to a guy and we were like just making conversation 135 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 2: before the meeting started, and he mentioned that his I 136 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 2: asked him when he did that weekend and he said, oh, 137 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 2: I went to my kids graduation, and he was like 138 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 2: it was fantastic. Now the easiest thing to do and say, oh, congratulations, 139 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 2: that's great, But instead I asked him a deep question, 140 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 2: I said, and it doesn't seem like a deep question, 141 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 2: but it just seems like an interesting, interested question, which is, oh, 142 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 2: that's amazing. What did it feel like to watch your 143 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 2: kid walk across that stage? Like like were you proud 144 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 2: or like sad? That's the kind of question that invites 145 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 2: someone to share who they are. And more importantly, when 146 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 2: someone talks about their kid going to graduate, going to 147 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 2: their kids graduation, that's probably a somewhat emotional topic for them, 148 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,599 Speaker 2: and instead of simply saying graduate. I matched him and 149 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 2: I said, oh, tell me about that. What how did 150 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 2: it feel to watch your kid walk across that stage? 151 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 2: And we had a great conversation for just like five minutes, 152 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:11,679 Speaker 2: and then we went on and we did the meeting, 153 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 2: but we felt more connected to each other because we 154 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 2: had become aligned. 155 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. I mean I think it's it's partly. You know, 156 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: small talk gets this reputation as being incredibly dull, and 157 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: it often is, but that's because the questions don't invite 158 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: further conversation. Whereas you know you're passing the time talking 159 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: about a deep emotional issue, it going to make the 160 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: time go a lot faster. Yeah, we're going to take 161 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: a quick ad break and then we'll be back with 162 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: some more tips on being a better communicator. Well, I 163 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: am back with Charles Douhig, who is the author of 164 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: the book Super Communicators and also the book The Power 165 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: of Habit. He's been sharing some tips on having better conversations. 166 00:07:58,000 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: Although I think one of the issues a lot of 167 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: us have with having good conversations, and you could tell 168 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: me if this is you know something a lot of 169 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: people do. We're always thinking about what we should be 170 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: saying next, which means that your brain isn't necessarily on 171 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: what the person is. 172 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, No, absolutely. And in the book, we have a 173 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 2: bunch of stories, right the Supercommunicators is really built. There's 174 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 2: a story about a guy who's a CIA officer as 175 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 2: to recruit overseas spies that is just terrible at the 176 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 2: job until he learns how to how to genuinely listen 177 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 2: to other people. There's another story about the making of 178 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 2: The Big Bang Theory, the TV show, where they think 179 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 2: the show was not a hit at first. It was 180 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 2: a total flop until they figured out how to show 181 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 2: that the characters were listening to each other. And one 182 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 2: of the things that we know about listening is that 183 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 2: you're exactly right. Oftentimes in a conversation, we get a 184 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 2: little focused on what we're going to say next, because 185 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 2: we want to sound smart, right, We want to we 186 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 2: want to sound clever, and we want to sort of 187 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 2: share something about ourselves. But the the more we listen, 188 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 2: the more we automatically sound clever and share with ourselves, 189 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 2: even if it's not premeditated. And there's a trick to 190 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 2: getting yourself to listen closely to another person, and it's 191 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 2: called looping for understanding the goal of looping for understanding 192 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 2: is not only to listen closely, it's to prove to 193 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:18,959 Speaker 2: the other person that you've been listening to them. And 194 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 2: there's three steps to it. Step one is to ask 195 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 2: a question, preferably a deep question. Step two is to 196 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 2: repeat back in your own words which you heard them say. 197 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,199 Speaker 2: Don't mimic them, but like really try and prove to them, Oh, 198 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 2: I hear what you're saying. I think what you're saying 199 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 2: is this. And then step three, and this is the 200 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 2: step I always forget, ask if you got it right? 201 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 2: Because when you ask if you got it right, what 202 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 2: you're actually asking is can I have your permission to 203 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 2: acknowledge that I've been listening to you. Now, think about 204 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 2: what you have to do in that conversation instead of 205 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 2: thinking about what you're going to say. You have to 206 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,719 Speaker 2: pay enough attention to the other person that you can 207 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 2: repeat back what they're going to tell you in your 208 00:09:57,520 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 2: own words, and you're hopefully going to get it right 209 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 2: when we put. 210 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 1: Ourselves because if they tell you you're wrong, what do 211 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: you do? 212 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 2: Then? Well, then you say, okay, I'm sorry, they explain 213 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 2: it to me again. I missed something right, And the 214 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 2: goal here is like, how do we how do we 215 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 2: how do we get ourselves to listen more closely? We 216 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 2: get ourselves to listen more closely by paying closer attention. 217 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, so lots of different tips here for being a 218 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 1: good listener. But part of this is about treating conversations seriously. 219 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:34,479 Speaker 1: And one of the things you suggest in super communicators 220 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:39,439 Speaker 1: is actually doing some preparation for a conversation, and not 221 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: just difficult conversations, because we're going to talk about difficult 222 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: conversations in a minute, but even just like, let's say 223 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:49,199 Speaker 1: I'm going out to lunch with a friend of mine 224 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,559 Speaker 1: I haven't seen in six months, so obviously I'm probably 225 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:54,559 Speaker 1: looking forward to it. You know, it's a thing I've 226 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: gotten on my calendar, probably had it there for at 227 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: least a week or two, so I'm excited about it. 228 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: How we should I prepare for that in order to 229 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: make it more meaningful for both of us? 230 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's a great question, right because and you 231 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 2: probably already do. Some of this is that as you're 232 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 2: anticipating seeing your friend, you're thinking to yourself, I'm really 233 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 2: curious I'm going to ask her about this or I'm 234 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 2: going to ask her about that. I wonder what's going 235 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 2: on with her kids. Last time we talked, she was 236 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 2: having some middle school problems, and I wonder if they've 237 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 2: resolved that. You're already preparing for that conversation, and so 238 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 2: the question is is how can we do that all 239 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 2: the time? How can we make that a habit? Well, 240 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 2: there was a study that was done by Harvard Business 241 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 2: School where they brought in a bunch of students, Harvard 242 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 2: Business School students, this was like in their first month 243 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 2: of school, and they told them, Okay, in a couple 244 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,319 Speaker 2: of minutes, you're going to have a conversation with a stranger. Now, 245 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 2: having a conversation with a stranger is like one of 246 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 2: the most anxiety producing things you can ask someone to do, 247 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 2: right like always, because we don't know what we're going 248 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 2: to ask about, we don't know if we have anything 249 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 2: in common. And they said, before you have this conversation, 250 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 2: what we want you to do is we want you 251 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,439 Speaker 2: to do this just ten second exercise. Take out a 252 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 2: piece of paper and write down three things you might 253 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 2: want to talk about, or three questions you might want 254 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 2: to ask, or just three topics that are interesting to you. 255 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 2: They can be stupid, right, like, you know, are you 256 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 2: going to the party this weekend? Did you catch last 257 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 2: night's game? And they said, okay, take ten seconds, write 258 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 2: down those three questions and then put them in your 259 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 2: pocket and go have the conversation. So students did this, 260 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 2: They wrote down their three things, they went and they 261 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 2: had the conversations, and afterwards they pulled the students and 262 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 2: they asked them, did you guys talk about the things 263 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 2: you wrote down? And most of the students said no, like, 264 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 2: actually it never came up. But on the other hand, like, 265 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 2: the conversation was so much less anxiety producing for me 266 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 2: and went so much better than I anticipated, because I 267 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 2: knew that if we hit like an awkward silence, I 268 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 2: had those questions in my back pocket, and the fact 269 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 2: that they were in my back pocket meant that I 270 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 2: didn't even have to I didn't even have to ask them. Oftentimes, 271 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,439 Speaker 2: when we're going to have a conversation with someone, particularly 272 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 2: an important, meaningful conversation, one of the best things we 273 00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 2: can do is just sit down and ask ourselves, what 274 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 2: is one thing that I want to tell this person about, Like, 275 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 2: what's one thing that's important to me that I want 276 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 2: to share with them, and equally, what is one question 277 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 2: that you absolutely want to ask that person And you 278 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 2: might get to that topic and that question in your conversation. 279 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 2: But the fact that you've thought a little bit about 280 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:19,959 Speaker 2: what what your goals are for the conversations, that you've 281 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 2: tried to envision what the other person's goals are for 282 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 2: the conversations, that's going to make it so much more 283 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,439 Speaker 2: natural to find the things you actually care about. 284 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: Wonderful a good idea for better conversation there. But you know, 285 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: some conversations, you know, probably if you're just having a 286 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: random conversation with another student at Harvard Business School, it 287 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 1: might be just casual, you know, not particularly fraught. I 288 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 1: know a lot of people, especially you know, charged political environments, 289 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: lots of topics that are heeded for people these days. 290 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: As you know, this will air after the election, but 291 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: I know a lot of people are going to be 292 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: visiting extended family, maybe people who have different political opinions 293 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 1: than them. I mean, without getting into the politics itself, 294 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 1: how do we have conversations with people that we know 295 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: disagree with us on a lot. Yeah, if we're also 296 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: trying to maintain the relationship. So maybe picture Thanksgiving dinner, 297 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: aunts or uncle who disagrees with you vehemently on everything. 298 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 2: How does that work well? So the first thing I 299 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 2: would say is, it's not that this is unusual, right, 300 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 2: There's lots of things that we disagree with our best 301 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 2: friends on or our family members. In fact, if you 302 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 2: think about like America, like what's made us strong, it's 303 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 2: that we are really good at disagreeing with each other 304 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 2: and then working together. The Constitutional Convention was basically a 305 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 2: bunch of people coming together who hated each other, and 306 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 2: all they did was yell at each other for three 307 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 2: months straight, and then they wrote a constitution together. Having 308 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 2: conversations with people who don't agree with us, that's an 309 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 2: important part of conversation, and that's one of the nice 310 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 2: things about communication. And so the question is how do 311 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 2: we do it right? So the first thing I would 312 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 2: say is that oftentimes when people go into that conversation 313 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 2: they are feeling really anxious. They're not anxious necessarily about 314 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 2: the topic of the conversation, They're anxious about what the 315 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 2: conversation is going to be, Like, you know, is Jim 316 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 2: going to say something that offends me so much that 317 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 2: like it's really hard for me to continue having dinner 318 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 2: with him. Am I going to say the wrong thing? 319 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 2: And am I gonna set Susie off by saying something 320 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 2: that offends her that I didn't even realize was offensive. 321 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 2: And so one of the best things we can do 322 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 2: for those conversations is we can start them by saying, 323 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 2: I want to have a discussion about something, and I 324 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 2: want I know that it's going to be awkward, and 325 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 2: that's okay, Like it's okay for this conversation to be awkward. 326 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 2: It should kind of be awkward, and I might say 327 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 2: the wrong thing because in the space between my brain 328 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 2: and my lips what I'm trying to get across sometimes 329 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 2: it gets garbled. And I hope you'll forgive me if 330 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 2: I say if I say things wrong, and I want 331 00:15:58,240 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 2: you to know that if you say the wrong thing, 332 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 2: I will absolutely forgive you. But talking about this and 333 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 2: understanding how you see this situation it's important to me, 334 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 2: and so if you're willing, I'd love to have a 335 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 2: conversation with you about it. What study of the study 336 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 2: shows is if you start a conversation by acknowledging that 337 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 2: it might be hard, that it might be awkward, by 338 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 2: apologizing and saying I go into this with the best 339 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 2: of intentions, and I hope you do too. It can 340 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 2: transform how difficult that conversation is. That doesn't mean everyone's 341 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 2: going to agree with each other, but it does mean 342 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 2: that it's going to go much easier. 343 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: And it seems that partly it's just about being polite, right, 344 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: that use remembering our manners even when it is a 345 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: heated conversation can go a long way. And that was 346 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: one of the more fascinating studies you referenced in this 347 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: book is that when people well you can describe it, 348 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: and people use their manners online, they even manage to 349 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: turn down the temperatural absolutely. 350 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 2: It turns out that online if you say please and 351 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 2: thank you, it can transform the tenor of the discussion. 352 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 2: And I think the reason why is because you know, 353 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:12,959 Speaker 2: when you think about it, in these conversations that are 354 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,919 Speaker 2: tough conversations, what's the goal. If your goal is I 355 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 2: want to give that person a peace in my mind, 356 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 2: or I want to prove to them that I'm right 357 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,360 Speaker 2: and there wrong, it's not that surprising that the conversation 358 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 2: is not going to go very well, right, But the 359 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 2: goal of a conversation shouldn't be to prove to make 360 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 2: the other person agree with you. It shouldn't even be 361 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:34,719 Speaker 2: to impress them that you're smarter get them to like you. 362 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 2: The goal of a conversation is just to understand what 363 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 2: the other person is trying to say and to speak 364 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 2: in such a way that they understand you. And when 365 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 2: we set that as our goal, when we go into 366 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 2: a conversation, we say, look, I might disagree with you, 367 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 2: but I genuinely want to understand why you see the 368 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 2: world this way. All of a sudden, that conversation becomes 369 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:57,159 Speaker 2: much easier, and that politeness that you mentioned, that's a 370 00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:59,640 Speaker 2: signal that we want to do that when I say 371 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 2: please and thank you, when I say, you know, that's 372 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 2: a really really good point. I disagree with you, but 373 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,440 Speaker 2: I think you made that point really really well. What 374 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 2: we're really saying is it is my goal to understand 375 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 2: you as my primary objective. Everything else is secondary to that. 376 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 2: And when we feel like someone is listening to us, 377 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 2: we become much more likely to listen to them in response. 378 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: And I think partly it's just that when we're communicating, 379 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 1: we were seeing each other, or we're using our voices. 380 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,439 Speaker 1: I mean, you can hear more of that, that it's calm, 381 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: that it's respectful versus online, when you're just seeing print, 382 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 1: it's probably easy to take the worst possible explanation for 383 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:45,919 Speaker 1: somebody's sayings. So they say give me your evidence, you 384 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: imagine them shouting over you give me your evidence, as 385 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: opposed to genuinely life. I'd like to see what you're 386 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 1: basing this on. 387 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, And think about sarcasm, right, Like, if I 388 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 2: said something sarcastic, you know immediately that I mean sarcastic 389 00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 2: because you can hear it my voice. But when I 390 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 2: type something stark, you have no idea. You think of 391 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 2: just being a jerk. And I think that that's really 392 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 2: really important, is that different channels of communication have different 393 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 2: strengths and weaknesses. And when we get into trouble, it's 394 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 2: when we forget that there's different rules, different rules for 395 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 2: different channels. Right that when I'm talking to you, I 396 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:21,360 Speaker 2: can say something sarcastic, but when I'm online, I shouldn't 397 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:23,360 Speaker 2: be sarcastic because you're not going to hear the sarcasm 398 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 2: in my voice. It's not that these different channels of 399 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 2: communication are better or worse, or that some of them 400 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 2: are terrible it's that they each have a different set 401 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 2: of rules, and we get into trouble when we forget 402 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 2: those rules. But if we just remind ourselves and we 403 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 2: all know this, right, we know that there's a difference 404 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 2: between making a phone call and seeing someone face to 405 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 2: face and sending them a text versus sending them an emoji. 406 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:48,719 Speaker 2: We know that these different forms of communication require slightly 407 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 2: different approaches. When we remember that we remind ourselves, it 408 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 2: goes much much better. 409 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,360 Speaker 1: Absolutely, Well, We're going to take one more quick ad 410 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: break and then we'll be back with some of Charles's 411 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:09,159 Speaker 1: personal productivity tips. Well, I am back. This is one 412 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,679 Speaker 1: of the longer episodes of Before Breakfast. I am interviewing 413 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 1: Charles Duhig about how to be a better communicator. He's 414 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 1: also written about productivity topics in the past. We have 415 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: a lot of people who love productivity tips listening to 416 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: this show, So Charles, maybe you can tell us a 417 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: little bit about how you personally make to do lists. 418 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, and a lot of this came from when I 419 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 2: was writing The Power of Habit right about how to 420 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:34,959 Speaker 2: build the right habits that make you more productive. So 421 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 2: one of the things that research has shown is that Oftentimes, 422 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 2: when someone comes up with a to do list, when 423 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 2: we write it to do list, and I used to 424 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 2: do this myself, we're making a critical mistake. The goal 425 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 2: of a to do list should be to help you 426 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 2: figure out what your priorities are. The goals of a 427 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 2: memory list are to write down all those things that 428 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 2: it's hard to carry around in your brain. So I 429 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 2: have a memory list that has twenty or thirty different 430 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 2: tasks on it, all these things that like, over time, 431 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:05,400 Speaker 2: I want to get done, because if I don't write 432 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 2: them down, I'm going to forget them. But that's not 433 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:09,439 Speaker 2: my to do list, and that shouldn't be my to 434 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 2: do list because what will happen is when I look 435 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 2: at that list, that memory list, the thing that I'm 436 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 2: gonna do is I'm going to look for the easiest 437 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 2: task to complete because it feels so good. It gives 438 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 2: you what's known as a cognitive sense of closure to 439 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 2: get to be able to cross that thing off. In fact, 440 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 2: studies show that something like thirty percent of people when 441 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 2: they write a to do list, they'll actually include on 442 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 2: this to do list something they've already completed so that 443 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 2: they can cross it off and feel good. 444 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: About that, So that's your I've never done that, Charles, never, never, 445 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: never done. 446 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:41,640 Speaker 2: So it's important to have a memory list. You should 447 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 2: definitely have a memory list, but you should not make 448 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,239 Speaker 2: that your to do list. Your to do list is 449 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,479 Speaker 2: something that you come up with every morning. And what 450 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 2: you do is you look at your memory list and 451 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 2: you say, what is the number one most important thing 452 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 2: for me to get done today? Okay, that's the first 453 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,120 Speaker 2: item on my to do list. If I get that done. 454 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 2: What's the second most important thing to get done today? Okay, 455 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 2: that's number two. Now, odds are you're only going to 456 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 2: get those two things done, right, Maybe you'll only get 457 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,120 Speaker 2: one of them done. But just in case, just in case, 458 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 2: what's the third most important? And the next day, when 459 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:16,959 Speaker 2: you wake up and you got one done and two done, 460 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 2: number three might become number one on your to do 461 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 2: list for the next day. What studies show us is 462 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 2: that you should never have more than three things on 463 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 2: your to do list, but those three things should be 464 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,719 Speaker 2: the most important things. And in fact, in some ways, 465 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 2: having just one thing on your to do list is 466 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 2: really really valuable if it's the most important thing, because oftentimes, 467 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 2: if we have too many things on our to do list, 468 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 2: we'll skip the most important thing. We'll skip the thing 469 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 2: that we put number one in order to do the 470 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 2: other things that are easier. So a to do list 471 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 2: should be what is the most important priority for today? 472 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 2: What will move the ball farthest today? What do I 473 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 2: have to get done? And the memory list is where 474 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 2: I dump everything I need to remember and I use 475 00:22:58,119 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 2: those to figure out what goes number one, two and 476 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 2: three on my to do list for today. 477 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, we have a saying around here that to do 478 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: means today. Yeah that if you're putting it on the 479 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: to do list, it means that you are doing it today. 480 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,159 Speaker 1: And there's a contract with yourself, so exactly. 481 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:14,719 Speaker 2: And there's some stuff that you can do today, right 482 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 2: that like you really want to get done, but you 483 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 2: know it's you're not going to get a chance to 484 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:19,639 Speaker 2: do it till next week. That's the thing that should 485 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 2: go on the memory list to remind yourself next week 486 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,199 Speaker 2: that you want to do this, but that to do 487 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 2: list should be today. 488 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely good advice. So, Charles, what is something that 489 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 1: you have done recently to take a day from great 490 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 1: to awesome? That is our tagline around here. We're always 491 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: looking for ways to take our days from great to awesome. 492 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: So what's something you've done recently that has made a 493 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: day extra special? 494 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 2: You know? So I'll tell you this quick story that 495 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,959 Speaker 2: comes from supercommunicators. There's this this study that's known as 496 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 2: the Adult or the Harvard Study of Adult Development, where 497 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 2: what they've done is for eighty years now that researchers 498 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 2: have fall around thousands and thousands of people to try 499 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 2: and figure out what are the things that make people 500 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:06,160 Speaker 2: most successful, make them healthiest, and make them live longest. 501 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 2: And when this project started back in the nineteen twenties 502 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 2: and thirties, they had all kinds of crazy theories. Right. 503 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:12,879 Speaker 2: It was being done at Harvard, so they were like, well, 504 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 2: if you go to Harvard, you're probably going to be 505 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 2: much happier in life than everyone else, which turns out 506 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 2: not to be true, you know. And they said things like, well, 507 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,400 Speaker 2: if you come from a good family, if you get 508 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 2: married early, if you have kids but not too many kids. 509 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 2: And it turns out none of those things actually impact 510 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 2: our health and our happiness and our success. There is 511 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,919 Speaker 2: one thing that does, though. You will be happy, healthy 512 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,679 Speaker 2: and successful at age sixty five if you have at 513 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 2: least a handful of close relationships at age forty five, 514 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:43,719 Speaker 2: because of course you're just you're not just having those 515 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 2: relationships age forty five, right, these are people that you 516 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 2: can keep in touch with. What we know is that lonely. 517 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 2: Being lonely is the equivalent of smoking fifteen cigarettes a day. 518 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 2: It's terrible for you. And the cure for loneliness isn't 519 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 2: having a thousand friends. It's having just a handful of 520 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 2: friends that you actually keep in touch with that person 521 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 2: that you haven't talked to and in a month and 522 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 2: a half giving them a call and saying, hey, let's 523 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 2: just catch up for fifteen or twenty minutes. So the 524 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 2: way that I make my day from good to great, 525 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 2: from good to awesome is I set aside some time 526 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 2: to have a conversation with someone that I haven't talked 527 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 2: to in a while. Because that feeling of connection, that 528 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 2: feeling of hearing each other and being heard and learning 529 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 2: something new about the world and renewing that connection that 530 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 2: makes you feel amazing. And I think it's really really important. 531 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 2: It makes us healthier and happier and ultimately makes us 532 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 2: live longer. 533 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, excellent, Well, I am personally forty five years old. 534 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 1: So I will take that to heart and looking around 535 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: making sure I have good connections. Hopefully these people are 536 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: sticking around for the next twenty years. But we'll see, 537 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 1: we'll see. They mostly seem like they're good people in 538 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 1: willbild you know, you never know, but this is a 539 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,880 Speaker 1: great stuff, Charles. So, where can our listeners find you these? 540 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,120 Speaker 2: Yeah? So my website is Charlesdohig dot com. Or if 541 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 2: you google Power of Habit or Super Communicators, I'll definitely 542 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 2: come up on Twitter and LinkedIn and Instagram. And the 543 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 2: book Super Communicators. You can buy it at any bookstore 544 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,199 Speaker 2: right It's on Amazon. Your local booksellers are fantastic. The 545 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 2: audiobook is really popular on audible dot com. I actually 546 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,880 Speaker 2: read it myself, but yeah, I would love to hear 547 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 2: from folks and I'm easy to find excellent. 548 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: So yeah, if you want to hear more of Charles voice, 549 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,439 Speaker 1: go check out the audiobook and Charles, thank you so 550 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: much for joining us. Everyone could go check out his 551 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: book and to our listeners. If you have feedback about 552 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: this episode or suggestions for future topics, you can let 553 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 1: me know at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. In 554 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: the meantime, this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's 555 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: to making the most of our time. Thanks for listening 556 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, 557 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: you can reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. 558 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 1: Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts 559 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: from iHeartMedia, please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 560 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.