1 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: Today, I'm joined by a man that may have forgotten 2 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: more about wild turkeys than I may ever know. Mike Chamberlain. 3 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: He's a wildlife researcher at the University of Georgia's Wild 4 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 1: Turkey Lab. Since writing his dissertation on turkeys and Predation, 5 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: Chamberlain has studied the birds for almost thirty years. Well, 6 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: he has learned about turkeys has made him a better hunter. 7 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: We're hoping by having him on the show today it 8 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: will help you out as well. Thanks for joining me, Mike, 9 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: not a problem. Good to be here, Yeah, thanks, thanks. 10 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: You have any big plans for the spring? Yeah? I do. Actually, Um, 11 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:51,919 Speaker 1: I'm I'm making the kind of annual swing. I'll go 12 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: to Florida lighter in March, and um hit Texas for 13 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: a week and and then Buddy and our making a 14 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: swing out with us. I think we're gonna do South 15 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: Dakota and Montana and Wyoming and um then I'll I'll 16 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 1: probably be divorced at that point, so I'll have to 17 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 1: have to come home. Yeah. Yeah, you have a pretty 18 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: full plate there for spring. Um. You know, similar to 19 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:18,199 Speaker 1: our falls, you you guys load up in the spring 20 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: to chase turkeys and and uh, I can't wait to 21 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 1: get out there and chase turkeys. I think I'm only 22 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:24,680 Speaker 1: gonna go to two states. We're gonna go back to Kansas, 23 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: and then I'm gonna hunt kind of the area I 24 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 1: cut my teeth on here in northeastern Washington. That'll be 25 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: my two trips. So yeah, we're gonna start this podcast 26 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: off with a few questions um from the listeners. The 27 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: first question, how much should I call to a gobbler 28 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: on the roost. I'm gonna give you my answer, and 29 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: then Michael go ahead and give you the right answer. Um. 30 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: In my opinion, getting closer to that tree is maybe 31 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: even more important than the calling. But the question was 32 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: about the calling. So what I will typically do is 33 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: I want to to get that bird to recognize me 34 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: or acknowledge you know, that that he's heard me. And 35 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: that's typically you know, done by a gobble that follows 36 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: my soft tree. ELPs, I know he's responded to me. 37 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: And then as the morning continues on, some of the 38 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: other hims start to wake up and talk to the turkey. 39 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:12,799 Speaker 1: He starts to get more excited. I tend to let 40 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 1: him know where my presence is, but ideally I would 41 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: like to call as little as possible, but enough to 42 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 1: still be recognized by the tom um. I've I believe 43 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 1: I've had the worst luck ever hunting turkeys out of 44 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 1: the roost. Um. It never seems to go to plan. 45 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: But what do you typically do, Mike, as far as 46 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: like how much should you call to the gobbler, why 47 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,639 Speaker 1: they're on the roost and maybe why you know why 48 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: you do that? Yeah, I don't call much, man. I 49 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: I usually if I know he can hear me, which 50 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 1: you know, if you're within a few hundred yards of 51 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: the bird, he knows exactly where you are. I'll usually 52 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: only call once, um maybe twice, and then I even 53 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: if he doesn't respond, I don't continue to call because 54 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: I know he's heard me. Uh. If I get a 55 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: response like your and like you know, if he cuts 56 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: me off one time, that's it, you know, I don't. 57 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 1: I don't. I'm done for that until he until he 58 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: hits the ground. And sometimes I won't call until they 59 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: fly down. It just it just depends do you do 60 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: you change based on if you've been able to pattern 61 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: those birds are kind of seeing what they've did the 62 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: last couple of mornings, or will you just wait until 63 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: they hit the ground to deer calling or is it 64 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: because you know they're typically gonna you're set up in 65 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: a good spot and they're gonna come your direction. Mostly 66 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: usually when I don't call when he's in the tree. 67 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: It you know, I've got some some knowledge that Okay, 68 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: when birds are in this location and they fly down, 69 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: they typically will do this or that. Um. But I've 70 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: also hunted some birds before that. You know, you you 71 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: called to him in the tree, and they they shut 72 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: up and they fly down and head away from you 73 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: and gobble, and they expect you to come to them, 74 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: which is in their world is supposed to happen anyway. 75 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: So um, sometimes I'll just if I think I've got 76 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: everything on my side, there's no hens around him, he's 77 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: by himself. Sometimes I'll let him hit the ground and 78 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: then give him a call, and um, and I think 79 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: sometimes it almost elicits elicits a responsible waite a minute. 80 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: I didn't hear her over there, and now she's on 81 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 1: the ground, and and uh, I've even you know, done 82 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: flat ounds and take you know, my hat or the 83 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: wing that's in my in my jacket. And really, you know, 84 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: once he hits around really makes some racket. And I've 85 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 1: had some birds responding pretty favorably to that too. Gotcha, 86 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: that's what you're saying, is in the tree, I should 87 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 1: resist the urge to keep calling that bird, keep getting 88 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:38,920 Speaker 1: him the gobble to me, and just he knows I'm there. 89 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: I've already established that, and then just be quiet. Yeah, okay, perfect, 90 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: I'm gonna add that. Yeah, yeah, And I agree. Like 91 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: I said, I like to call as little as possible, 92 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: but sometimes it's tough, like, well, he's gobbling on all 93 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: these other hens. I want him to acknowledge me or 94 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 1: re acknowledge me, um as the morning goes on. So 95 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 1: all right, the second question from our listeners is one 96 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:03,039 Speaker 1: of turkey gobbles but heads directly away from us. What 97 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: should we do? Or or directly away from your setup 98 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: that initial setup or you know, if you're I guess, 99 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: if you're locating early in the morning, you get a 100 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 1: turkey to gobble, but he continues to head away from you. 101 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: What should you do? And so I always it makes 102 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: my decision tree a little better. I always assume that 103 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:21,280 Speaker 1: that bird's in toe is something. You know, he's got 104 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: some hands, he's in toe, and so I'm just assuming 105 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: that he's got hands. He may just be wandering, he 106 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 1: may just want to go to a different direction. But 107 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 1: I always try to just think that he's got hands, 108 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:32,919 Speaker 1: he's going in a different direction. I always want to 109 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: know are there other birds around? Are there other good 110 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: options for us to go hunt that morning? Or is 111 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: that your only play? Is that the only bird in town? 112 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 1: And you have to make a play? Um, I've had 113 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,279 Speaker 1: very very little success, way better success, you know, trailing 114 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: elk than I have turkeys. Um, If I'm going to 115 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:49,720 Speaker 1: try to make a plan that turkey, it's got to 116 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: be a big loop. It's got to be you need 117 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 1: to take the time, put in the effort, get way 118 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: out in front of that bird, and then also understand 119 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: the risk of doing that is you know what what 120 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: speed did he travel as you had to make your loop? 121 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: Are you still on pace? Are you gonna you know? 122 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 1: And there's a there's a pretty good likelihood that I 123 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 1: may bump that bird if that's the play I'm gonna make. Um, 124 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: So ideally I'm gonna go hunt a different bird. If 125 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: he continues to gobble as he heads away from me. Um, 126 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: you know, the second of all, if that's the only 127 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: bird I've got to hunt. I'm gonna make a big loop, 128 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: try to get in front of him and then either 129 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: ambush or or some light calling out in front. Do 130 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: you have anything to add to that, microor just a 131 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: completely different strategy. Yeah, well no, I I usually, Um, 132 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: it really depends on the bird and where I'm at. 133 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: You know, like if I'm in Merriam's country and they 134 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: start heading away from me, I'm doing what you're you 135 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: know what you just described. I'm getting up and trying 136 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: to figure out where they're headed. Same with rios. Sometimes 137 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 1: you know, they can they can they can book it 138 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 1: and head to a different county. It seems if I'm 139 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: over here in my neck of the woods, um, where 140 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: it's really thick and and these you know, these Easterns 141 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 1: can be a little bit different birds to hunt. I 142 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: will often just sit tight, believe it or not, because, um, 143 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,919 Speaker 1: if I know that he knows where I'm at. We 144 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 1: have a lot of data showing that sometimes these birds 145 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,679 Speaker 1: will circle back to these places from which they've heard 146 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: calling two or three or four hours later. And I 147 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: know nobody wants to sit there listening to a bird 148 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 1: gobble and walk away from you. But sometimes that is 149 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: the right play. Um. I think if if I know 150 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: that he's got hands with him, then that's one thing. 151 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: But if I think he's alone and I'm just not 152 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: on his agenda when he hits the ground, I will 153 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: often just sit tight and see if I become on, 154 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: you know, part of his agenda later in the morning, 155 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: or I will maybe try to track, you know, trail him, track, 156 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 1: follow him a little bit and just kind of keep 157 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: the location I started from in my back pocket, and 158 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: if I need, if he just veils completely and he 159 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: shuts up, I'll a lot of times I'll go back 160 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: to where I started and sit tight and call blindly. 161 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: And I've had birds, but I don't know if it 162 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: was the same bird, but I've had birds that showed 163 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: up doing that. Yeah, Yeah, for sure. That's a great 164 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: segue into into the discussion and some of the questions 165 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you, Mike, is I believe I 166 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: was on the Meter podcast and and I think we 167 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: had a phone call with you and some of your answers, 168 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: and it was one of the most fascinating. You know, 169 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: that's why science is kind of cool, is is you 170 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: there's no you can think things, but once we've got 171 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: the data from you. One of the things that I 172 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 1: was kind of amazed by is that the research that 173 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: you have, um, like you said, you call from an 174 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: area maybe early in the morning, and you guys have 175 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:48,199 Speaker 1: got you know, caller or tract birds that will come 176 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 1: back to that exact point two to three hours, you know, 177 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: four hours later to to you know, once the hens 178 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: go to nest to come back and and look for 179 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: that that hin that was calling to him earlier in 180 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: the morning. Can you can you go into some of 181 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 1: that data and some of the you know, whether you know, 182 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: percentages and whatnot, and kind of dig into that information 183 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: a little bit more for the listeners. Yeah, sure, sure, yes. 184 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: So what we've done on some study sites is we've actually, 185 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: you know, we captured Tom's and in the winter and 186 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: we put GPS units on them. But we also asked 187 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: cooperating hunters to carry a GPS unit in their pocket. 188 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:24,679 Speaker 1: And it's just you know, like a garment e treks 189 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: or something, just something simple. We turn it on, it 190 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: gets a location every minute, stick it in their jacket 191 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:33,199 Speaker 1: and and when they're done with their morning hunt, they 192 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: drop it off with us. And and what we've seen 193 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: pretty clearly is situations where a hunter knew he was 194 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: on a bird. He or she was on a bird, 195 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: the bird was in the tree gobbling, and for whatever reason, 196 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: the hunter was not on the agenda when he flew down, 197 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 1: and that that's real common with turkeys. They had they 198 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: know where they're headed, and sometimes you're not where they're 199 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: planning to head when they fly down. But then they 200 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: get curious, and if you think about it, it makes 201 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: it makes sense from their perspective that, um, hey, I 202 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: know she's over there, but my first agenda item is 203 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: this place where I interacted with some hinge yesterday, and 204 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: I know they're going to be there, so I'll go 205 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: there first. And then as the morning wears on, he recalls, hey, 206 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: I remember hearing something there. I'm going to go check 207 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: her out now and see if she's still in the area. 208 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: And we have seen numerous instances where a hunter will 209 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: will sit in a spot, presumably just by you know, 210 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 1: calling to the bird. The bird flies down, cuts their track, 211 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 1: goes behind them, walks off whatever. A few hours later, 212 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: their GPS coordinates are the same. The hunter is back 213 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: at the truck and gone, and that bird is standing 214 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: exactly where he or she was sitting. Uh, And it 215 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: just speaks to being patient. And that's to your point, 216 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: that's exactly why I I'm one of the most impatient 217 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: pe fold that's ever walked this planet. Yeah, I'm right 218 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: there with you. Yeah, I just can't. I'm busy body 219 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 1: and answer my pants, you know. And and the more 220 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: I've gotten, the older I've gotten in the more data 221 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: I've seen, the more patient I've become, because I do 222 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: realize that sometimes it is going to pay off that 223 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: that bird is going to come back, not every time 224 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: to your question, And you know, percentage wise, it's not 225 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: a high percentage, but there's a percentage, and that to 226 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 1: me is relevant because sometimes it will work out for you. Yeah, 227 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: there's a strong enough correlation that sometime later in the 228 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: day that that bird is likely to show back up 229 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:41,319 Speaker 1: at that spot that it's it's worth the play than 230 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 1: than going to find other birds. Is maybe to hold 231 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: tight and you know he will come back. And now 232 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: with that said, Mike, is there is there any varying data? 233 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:51,959 Speaker 1: Does it? Is it different earlier in the year where 234 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 1: not as many you know hens, or maybe going to 235 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: nest versus later in the year that this is likely 236 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 1: to happen sooner or more often or is there any difference, 237 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: But mean, like you know, earlier in the spring till 238 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 1: later in the spring, not that, yeah, not that we've 239 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: not that we've been able to see it. You know, 240 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:14,599 Speaker 1: I ultimately think it boils down to his options that 241 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 1: that day, and you know, you know as well as 242 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: I do. And these birds know where they're likely to 243 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: interact with hens, and that those are the places that 244 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: if they don't have hens with them or they're not 245 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: following hens, that's what they're going to do. That they're 246 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: either going to fly down and go to a call 247 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: that they think as a bird, or they're headed somewhere, 248 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: often quietly or even gobbling while they're walking, heading to 249 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 1: a place where they they think they're likely to see 250 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:47,439 Speaker 1: some hens um. So sometimes that just doesn't include us. 251 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: You know, that spot is not what we're sitting, and 252 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 1: that's why they seemingly ignore you. And you know common 253 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: you know, logic dictates we call louder and we get 254 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: up and track them, and we do. And in reality, 255 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: if you called, it's as loud as a whisper from 256 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: several hundred yards away, he knows exactly where you are, 257 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: they're they're hearing is a cute. They know exactly where 258 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: you were calling from and are capable at any point 259 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: of walking to that expect to that spot. So times 260 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: just sitting tight is is a good play, as hard 261 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: as it is to do it. Yeah, for sure. Right 262 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: hunt in eastern Washington, very very steep canyon country, and 263 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 1: we did kind of the impossible the one day, working 264 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 1: a burden a couple of hens, and they pitched off 265 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 1: of the adjacent mountain and they landed, you know, ten 266 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: yards from where we were calling. You know, they flew 267 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: all the way across the canyon and hit and landed, 268 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: and it's like their ability to know exactly where you 269 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: were was was demonstrated that day and I couldn't believe it, Like, 270 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:50,679 Speaker 1: you know, they could have landed dirty yards off, but 271 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: they literally landed no decoys right where we were, you 272 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 1: know that the two callers were calling from and just crazy. 273 00:13:57,760 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 1: So yeah, that's that's a great tip. And like I say, 274 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 1: it was something I didn't know as a turkey hunter. 275 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: Um and then your guys data kind of showed it 276 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: is that those birds they know where you were at, 277 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: they remember where you were at, and there is a 278 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: a you know, better than than random chance that they're 279 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: going to come back and visit that location sometime throughout 280 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: the day. Um, which, which, like I said, being being 281 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: the busy body, you know, the guy that can hunt 282 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: from a tree stand because I will go nuts. Um, 283 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: it's something I definitely want to add kind of to 284 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: my um you know, tree stand for deer. But you 285 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: know something I want to add to my my turkey 286 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: hunting arsenals, Maybe a little more patient and if I'm 287 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: gonna go back to camp and take a nap, might 288 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: as well just take a nap under that tree and 289 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: you know see if something shows back up? Yeah yeah, 290 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: what better way? Doesn't I mean enjoy the spring, would 291 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 1: you know? Sit there and yep, yep, yep for sure. 292 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: So this next question kind of comes from once again 293 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: my own, my own question. UM, as I grew up 294 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: hunting Easterns here in western Washington, which you know some 295 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 1: say like those South Carolina birds or maybe the toughest 296 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: birds to hunt, like our Easterns here in Western Washington. 297 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: Maybe the toughest bird I've ever had to chase, just 298 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: because of the low densities. I always say, if you 299 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: can find one bird Um, you're doing good for the year, 300 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: let alone trying to kill it. Um. You know, we 301 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: may find one to three birds, max um, and then 302 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: we go over to eastern Washington and get to chase 303 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: Miriams and Rio's around and me not me growing up, 304 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: you know, as a high schooler that would jump in 305 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: my Honda Accord and drive across the state just so 306 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: I could go hunt a different bird and hunt higher 307 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: density of birds. I was. I felt like I was 308 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 1: hunting different different, a different creature. You know, they were 309 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: both turkeys, but they acted completely different. And I wanted 310 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: to just go into you know, whether I'm hunting Easterns 311 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: in Kansas, whether we're hunting Merriam's and Idaho or Eastern 312 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: Washington and and every other bird, Like, what are the 313 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 1: stark differences between let's say the Easterns, the Miriams and 314 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: Rio's um, and how you would use some of their 315 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 1: their distinct differences to maybe hunt them different because you 316 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: know the first day I showed up Miriam's, I sat 317 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: into the tree watched him, you know, go away from me, gobbling, 318 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: and and I didn't get up and chase him. I 319 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: just I kind of sat there like, oh, this is 320 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: like an Eastern, He'll he'll be around, He's gonna hang 321 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: out for a while. Um, not have a big you know, 322 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: not have a big loop. And then I might as 323 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: well laced up my running shoes that morning and just 324 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: took off after him. It was, it was a completely 325 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: different setup. So kind of with that question, Um, you know, 326 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: how do you hunt you know, Miriam's and Easterns differently 327 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: kind of some of their habits and how you can 328 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: kind of use some of that against them. Yeah. Yeah, 329 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: Eastern's you know that I'm hunting over here. You know, 330 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: their home range size is only let's just say, on average, 331 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: you know, during a spring week, maybe a few hundred 332 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: to a thousand acres or so, so they're not going 333 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: far from you. Um. I tend not to move a lot, 334 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: you know. I'm not one of these running gun scoot 335 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: and shoot whatever you wanna call it. I tend to 336 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: just uh try to figure out where the bird is 337 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: headed and what's his daily agenda, what are the options, 338 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 1: and then try to to be as patient as I 339 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: possibly can. Um, And that I think has worked for 340 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 1: me there. Yeah, there have been some scenarios where I 341 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: got lucky and just called bird up and boom it 342 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 1: was over with. But a lot of the time I've 343 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: had to work and um, and realized that maybe just 344 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:30,400 Speaker 1: sitting tight and kind of you know, being really really quiet, 345 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: calling subtly not often has worked. Um. When I go 346 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: out west, I'm like, what you just said has exactly 347 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 1: been my observation with Miriam's. Yeah. Hell, if he flies down, 348 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: he's in the opposite direction I'm running. I mean, they 349 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: cover some ground. And Rio's can do the same thing too, 350 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: you know, they fly down and they get the booking it, 351 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: and UM, yeah, I'll never forget. And I was hunting 352 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: in Kansas one time and and we followed these words. 353 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: We I mean we had to get in a truck 354 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 1: to to find them. I mean they just literally it 355 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 1: was like they left the county and come and find out. 356 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 1: That was their routine. Each day. They flew down across 357 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 1: the road, went across two pastors, and before you knew it, 358 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 1: they were three farms away and they were interacting with hens. 359 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 1: And that's just what they did every day. And UM, 360 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,880 Speaker 1: so that's kind of the mindset I use. It really 361 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: doesn't matter which subspecies I hunt. I try to scout 362 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:31,880 Speaker 1: a lot. I try to get as much intel as 363 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: I can about where they want to be anyway, because 364 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: calling a bird to a place he already wants to go, 365 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: or near a place he wants to go, in my opinion, 366 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: is a lot easier than calling him somewhere he doesn't go. Um. 367 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: And I'm not the world's best caller, so so uh, 368 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 1: I try to I try to be where birds won't 369 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 1: want to be already. Yeah, and is is the old 370 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:58,880 Speaker 1: hunting guy? Um, you know that loves the turkey hunt? 371 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 1: We knew something very very similar where if you can 372 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 1: let that elk do exactly what he wants to do 373 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 1: without you being involved, you've made your life a million 374 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:10,639 Speaker 1: times easier trying to call that that bowling or that 375 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: elkin than trying to reverse or pull him three under 376 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: yards in the direction he doesn't want to go. Um. 377 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 1: So yeah, very very similar. If you can, if you 378 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 1: can intercept that bird in his daily routine, it's gonna 379 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: make your life a lot easier, you know, trying to 380 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: call that birden versus you know, doing what he doesn't 381 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: want to do. Yeah, no question, absolutely no question. Okay, 382 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: I'm gonna dive into something and uh, I don't have 383 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:34,719 Speaker 1: a great grasp and I was able to hunt uh 384 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 1: eastern Kansas last year and got to hunt with Chris Parrish, 385 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 1: who you know, I was really picking his brain because 386 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: I've always wanted to know, you know, about nesting and 387 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: more specifically, like you know, when a hand laser first 388 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 1: egg to their last, Like what's that process? Like when 389 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: does a hand lay on the nest? You know all 390 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 1: day the majority of the day, do they ever lay 391 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,239 Speaker 1: on it? There's a lot of you know, misinformation out there, 392 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: and I wanted to hear directly from you and then 393 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,959 Speaker 1: how that old mentally affects the hunting. You know, I 394 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: know that April fifteenth in Washington, which is our opener, 395 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: is not a good time to hunt one because everybody 396 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:09,920 Speaker 1: has taken that same time off to hunt. And number two, 397 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: I cannot get those ding hands to ever you know, 398 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: go away. I'm I'm dealing with, you know, what seems 399 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: like a hand up gobbler the majority of the time. 400 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 1: But when I go hunt that same piece of public 401 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: ground or same area, say May five, May tenth, my 402 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 1: job just became a lot easier and a lot of 403 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: times later in that morning, if I can you know, 404 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 1: find a bird or get one to to light up. Um, 405 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 1: it's my job is a lot easier trying to call 406 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: that bird in so and my understanding it all comes 407 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 1: back to nesting. And if you can do kind of 408 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: a nesting one on one here, um, i'd I'd love 409 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: to hear it. Yeah. So, So basically, what what these 410 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,919 Speaker 1: birds do is they the tom's become receptive before the 411 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,959 Speaker 1: hands do. And that's why you see them gobbling and 412 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 1: displaying and doing their thing before nesting ever starts. The 413 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: hands become receptive. Uh. And the way it's supposed to 414 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:05,360 Speaker 1: work is everybody breathes pretty much at the same time. Uh, 415 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 1: and then everyone should go to nest at the same time. Now, 416 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: that doesn't always function. Uh. We see, particularly in heavily 417 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: hunted populations, that doesn't always occur. It may be more prolonged. 418 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: But the bottom line is the hen you know, she 419 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: she starts laying, she lays about one egg per day. UM. 420 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: Early in the laying sequence, they will go to the 421 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 1: nest once a day, they'll lay an egg and they'll leave. 422 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: As they get closer to the day they're going to 423 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: start incubating, they will spend more time at the nest. Uh. 424 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: During the laying process. So in other words, she may 425 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:46,440 Speaker 1: go on day eight and lay an egg and stay 426 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,919 Speaker 1: there for an hour and then she'll leave. And what 427 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 1: she's doing is she's she's incubating eggs and she's synchronizing everybody. 428 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: So the day that she starts incubating the last you know, 429 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 1: the last eggs she lays, she'll start continuous incubation. And 430 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 1: at that point, you know they're on the nest seven. Uh, 431 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: they'll leave, as I think we're gonna talk about, but um, 432 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:18,640 Speaker 1: they'll leave and um take a break, defecate, eat, come 433 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: back to the nest. Their clutch sizes really depends on 434 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: the population, but it averages about ten to twelve in 435 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 1: that range. So if you think about it takes them 436 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:34,120 Speaker 1: about two weeks to lay a clutch, and it takes 437 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: them about a month to incubate you know, the hatch. 438 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: So so they're really tethered to that nest site for 439 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: about forty five days. UM. So she spends a lot 440 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: of her life within a fairly small area. And from 441 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 1: the standpoint of of um of hunting, what you see 442 00:22:55,880 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: is that that tom's really ramp up compa titian amongst 443 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: each other during the laying sequence. And that if you 444 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 1: think about it makes sense because these birds can perceive. Um, 445 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:16,199 Speaker 1: there's research and mallards showing that they can perceive when 446 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:20,400 Speaker 1: females have eggs in the overduct. Drake's can when they're 447 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: flying around in these courtship flights, they can. They can sense, 448 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: they can tell that she's in her laying sequence, and 449 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: if they breathe with with a female during the laying sequence, 450 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 1: they have a very high probability of being represented in 451 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: that clutch. So if you think about it from a 452 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,880 Speaker 1: turkey's perspective, all of his lady friends start laying eggs 453 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: and his time is running out because she's about to 454 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: be unavailable to him. She's going to be incubating the 455 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,120 Speaker 1: clutch and at that point she's not receptive to him anymore. 456 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: So what we see in our research populations is gobbling 457 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,439 Speaker 1: activity really increases during the laying sequence. So when a 458 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: lot of your hens are laying, you'll see a lot 459 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: of gobbling activity because competitions really high during that time. 460 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,640 Speaker 1: So from the standpoint of planning a hunt, just like 461 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: you just said, um, you know it's April fifteenth, that's 462 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: in Washington, it's super early. They're still in these big flocks. 463 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: It's hard to get that bird away from those hens. 464 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: A few weeks later, most of those hens are incubating 465 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 1: or they're laying eggs. At that time, they're in much 466 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:29,360 Speaker 1: smaller groups. They're dispersed across the landscape. He's super, super 467 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: wound up, and you know, competitions high. It literally can 468 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: act like a different bird, an entirely different bird, because 469 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 1: he's he is different during that period. That's what I've seen, 470 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 1: and I actually try to. I try to time my 471 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 1: hunts if I can, if I'm going somewhere that I 472 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 1: don't know, I try to time my hunts if possible. 473 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: It's not always possible, but if I can close to 474 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,120 Speaker 1: the laying period, because I know that competition is going 475 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: to be high, and that means birds are I want 476 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 1: to be gobbling and all things being equal, that's what 477 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: makes me go out there. I want to hear bird's 478 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: talk and I want to be receptive. I'm gonna wind 479 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 1: back and ask a couple more questions on some stuff 480 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,959 Speaker 1: you said there. So when you say, once the clutch 481 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: is completely laid, she will lay on that seven so 482 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 1: she she no longer those hens will no longer go 483 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: to rust. They're sitting on those night and day except 484 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 1: for to go feed and do the stuff you said, correct, Yeah, 485 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: that's right. We see a few instances of hens that 486 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 1: maybe the first day she incubates, she may leave the 487 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 1: nest that night and roost nearby. But within a day 488 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: or two they're they're continuously incubating all day, all night, 489 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:59,439 Speaker 1: and they'll take a break. Usually we've seen from about 490 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 1: eleven a m. To about four pm they'll take a break. 491 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 1: It averages about an hour um. They will usually travel 492 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,120 Speaker 1: a hundred two hundred yards away from the nest and 493 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,400 Speaker 1: then they go back. And that's typically that lone hen 494 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: that you see. She won't go join up with the 495 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: flock or go find it tom that that hen will 496 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,119 Speaker 1: usually just leave her nest, go feed, localize, and then 497 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: come right back to it. Yep, yep. And they they are. 498 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 1: They are very secretive during their nesting period. Uh Turkeys, 499 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: you know, they're very gregarious and they hang out and 500 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 1: their social with each other year round, but when they're incubating, 501 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: they don't. They don't want to be around other hens. 502 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: And part of the reason for that is they parasitize 503 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: each other. They will lay eggs and other hens clutches um. 504 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 1: So not only is she trying to avoid predation, but 505 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 1: she's trying to stay away from other birds. And that's 506 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: why you often will see those lone hens kind of 507 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: you know, shaking bake. She You see her and she's 508 00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: going to the same area every day and she's only 509 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: there for fifteen or any minutes and then she's gone. 510 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: That that's what she's doing. She's she's got a routine 511 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,199 Speaker 1: and she's back to the nest. That makes sense. And 512 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,239 Speaker 1: then she gets bread daily or one time to make 513 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 1: her whole clutch. And this might be a really dumb 514 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 1: question because I don't know you know birds that well, 515 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 1: but does she need to get bread every day for 516 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 1: that egg or is it basically one time up front 517 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: and then that the fifteen eggs you're created from that 518 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 1: that breeding. They can breed once and produce a clutch. 519 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,880 Speaker 1: They're they're not designed to they're designed to breed multiple 520 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: times to produce a clutch. And there's there's several reasons 521 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,399 Speaker 1: for that. They don't have to breed every day. But 522 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: in an ideal situation, so turkey store sperm, so they 523 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: will breathe, they'll copulate, and they store sperm and these 524 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 1: tubules in their body, and then their body releases the 525 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: sperm from those tubules, and when it does, that creates 526 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: competition at the sperm level. The best, the most motile 527 00:27:55,720 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: sperm wins, so the um the viability of that sperm 528 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: decreases as it ages. So if you think about it 529 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 1: from her perspective, in an ideal world, she'd breed multiple 530 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 1: times across a number of days and store up the 531 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 1: sperm because the best sperm is going to win. And 532 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: she's not sure who that is, what tom it is. 533 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,640 Speaker 1: Usually it's dominant birds, but not always, so that's kind 534 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,920 Speaker 1: of how that works. They they should breed multiple times 535 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: and what that results in if you look at clutches, um, 536 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: the research has been done thus far shows that a 537 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: number of clutches have multiple tom's represented in them. UM. 538 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: So she's not only breeding with the same TOM over 539 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 1: and over, she's breeding with multiple times. Gotcha, That makes 540 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: that makes more sense. It wasn't a straightforward answers, so 541 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 1: it's kind of a mix of you know, one time 542 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: or multiple and then the the strongest wins out. My 543 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: next question for you, and and this is more of 544 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 1: you know during that that laying time. When laying one egg, 545 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: you know, for whatever it is, fifteen days or or 546 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: you know, maybe you know it could be a difference. 547 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 1: But let's just say they lay one egg for fifteen days. 548 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 1: How far are they going to travel from from their 549 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: roost tree to where they're nesting? And I know the hints, 550 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 1: you know, the hens prepare all their nests differently. Um, 551 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 1: Yet they're all typically roosting next to each other. And 552 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 1: I've always kind of attributed to why you know, the 553 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: hens may walk the tom in a certain direction towards 554 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 1: their nest or towards where they're all nesting. But how 555 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: far are they typically gonna move? And I know it's 556 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: gonna we already talked about it the subspecies, and it's 557 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: it's different. But um, you know, do we have any 558 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: data on how far they travel from you know, roost 559 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: to nest typically? Um? Yes we do. I've I've got 560 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: a student that's actually looking at this right now. UM, 561 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: and I don't. I don't have an average for you. 562 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: What we do see is that, uh, these birds appear 563 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: to have different strategies. In other words, there appear to 564 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: be some hens that have quite a few rush locations 565 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 1: in there and their home ranges while they're laying, and 566 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: others do not. Um if you think about it, it 567 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: makes sense to not spend time at that nest while 568 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 1: you're laying because you're not there to protect the nest, 569 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 1: so it's unguarded, so you really need to stay away 570 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: from there as much as you can. Um. So, we 571 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: we typically see that birds spend a lot of their 572 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 1: time elsewhere in their home range and then they run 573 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 1: over to their nest, not literally, but they moved to 574 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: their nest, they lay an egg, and they're gone. Um 575 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 1: So there. I don't think there is a distance per 576 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 1: se and average. I think it's it ultimately depends on 577 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: when she's laying, you know, what time of day her 578 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: body tells her, Hey, it's it's time. You know, you 579 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: need to be moving in that direction. I think that 580 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: dictates where she's adding her home range relative to that 581 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: nest site and how far she is from it. But 582 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: they do tend to stay away from that nest until 583 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: the hour they're going to lay, and then they're then 584 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: they're gone again. So that's that typical morning where you know, 585 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: they all fly down together, they do their thing for 586 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: that morning, and then you'll start to see that hen 587 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: kind of break off, go lay that higg and then 588 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: she comes and joins back up. Yeah, you see that 589 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: a lot. You know, you've got five hands that are together. 590 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: And then at eight o'clock there's four, At ten o'clock, 591 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 1: there's three. At eleven o'clock, they're gone, and where are 592 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: they at. You know, they're off doing their own things, 593 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: staying away from each other. And you know, from a 594 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: Thomas perspective, that's when I've had I've had a lot 595 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 1: of luck at that time of morning. If if you 596 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: can get those get those birds away from those hands, 597 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: they become receptive. So one thing for me, we used 598 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 1: to scout a ton, especially growing up here with very 599 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: few birds. We would spend you know, every weekend in 600 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: March trying to find birds. And then I was able 601 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: as I started to hunt northeast Washington, made the drive 602 00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: over the past, started to scout birds and figure them out. 603 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 1: But the only trouble I was running into is I 604 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: was scouting them in mid March, late March, and I 605 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: would get there and the birds seem to have dispersed um, 606 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 1: you know, whether they were more comfortable early in the 607 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: spring in the location and then they seem to have moved. Um, 608 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: can you tell me a little bit. I know you've 609 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 1: you've worked on this and and you've you've had some 610 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 1: schematics on how birds move and and disperse and talking 611 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: with my buddy, my good buddy Randy who owned some 612 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: property in Kansas, like his his properties are loaded early 613 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 1: in the season, and then his season gets late, like 614 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: he loses his density of birds very quickly. Um, going 615 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: to neighboring you know, so it's obviously I want to 616 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: be there earlier in spring, but leave. Can you tell 617 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: us a little bit about like that natural cycle of 618 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: you know, maybe white turkeys are loaded up in a place, 619 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 1: you know in marches, is they're kind of you know elk. 620 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: We would kind of say they're staging and kind of 621 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 1: figuring things out, and then they slowly dispersed into smaller 622 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 1: flocks and smaller groups. Um, and kind of what's going through? 623 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,479 Speaker 1: Are they just trying to go? Are the hens finding 624 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: like they're their annual nesting spot? Like, what's the reason 625 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: for that dispersement and how does how does that kind 626 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: of play out? Yes, So what turkeys do is you know, 627 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 1: what you're seeing in early March and some of these 628 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: areas are just winter flocks. Those are flocks that they've 629 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: been together, you know, since the fall, and you've got 630 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 1: a lot of birds there there, and they're about that 631 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 1: that flock is going to blow up, um, and it's 632 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 1: going to become a handful of smaller groups that are 633 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: more social groups than anything, and that will often cause 634 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: a scenario you just discussed. Um, they're here in March 635 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 1: and then April they're gone, or two thirds of them 636 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 1: are gone. Um. What what they're doing is they're shifting 637 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: their home range at that point, and they're moving from 638 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: more of a wintering area to a spring reproductive area. 639 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,720 Speaker 1: Sometimes that's not very far, and sometimes it's it's a 640 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: long way. Uh So, for instance, in our easterns we 641 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 1: see that, and you know, in some areas it's not 642 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 1: they may go to the next farm, or they may 643 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,239 Speaker 1: I mean they're very close by, and other populations, like 644 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 1: our pine dominated landscapes down in the southeast, they may move, 645 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: you know, a couple of miles from their wintering range 646 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: to their spring range, and that causes them to literally 647 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,719 Speaker 1: disappear from private properties. You know, if somebody says, Mike, 648 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: I had birds until February and then they left and 649 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 1: then they had they don't come back until the summer. 650 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 1: When you go to the western subspecies, you often see, 651 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: like the research has shown with Miriam's, they will move 652 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:42,319 Speaker 1: a dramatic distance from winter to spring thirty miles you know. Um, 653 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 1: and you see that, you know, I think less common 654 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 1: in some of the prairie landscapes than you do in 655 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,720 Speaker 1: other places where they're moving, you know, to some degree 656 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: based on elevation, but um, but yeah, they they can 657 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 1: cover some ground between winter and spring. And that's a 658 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,839 Speaker 1: common scenario in all of the subspecies that shift from 659 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,359 Speaker 1: winter to spring. Got you that that makes a lot 660 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: of sense because some places in you know, we're hunting 661 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 1: Miriam's in eastern Washington, you know, real mountainous. You might 662 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 1: as well just put your backpack on, and you know, 663 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: because you're five six miles from a road where they're 664 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,320 Speaker 1: wintering down in that agg and then as the snow melts, 665 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,840 Speaker 1: they're almost following you know, that snow line kind of 666 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 1: back up the mountain and they just end up where 667 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 1: they're at. I guess as long as they have enough 668 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 1: food and water and security, and that's where they want 669 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 1: to nest and and you know, do their breeding then 670 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,280 Speaker 1: that they'll move up there. But I just always wondered, 671 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: you know, like that dispersement, like why wouldn't they hang 672 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 1: out on the agg um. I don't know if it's 673 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 1: you know, concentration of predators or what their reasoning was 674 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,280 Speaker 1: from from leaving where you know, it kind of feels 675 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 1: like they got that that gravy life with a bunch 676 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:47,800 Speaker 1: of agg and a ton of bugging and kind of 677 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: everything they need and they almost make life harder on 678 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,799 Speaker 1: themselves by going up into the mountains and and you 679 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 1: know doing it that way. Yeah, Well, they're looking for 680 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 1: you know, they're looking for habitat that they think they 681 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,399 Speaker 1: could hode in and they can take a brood too, 682 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 1: and the brood is going to have you know, more success. 683 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,800 Speaker 1: And in those in areas where you see elevation chains 684 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: like that, Um, what you just said is is spot on. 685 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 1: Sometimes they literally almost looks like they're following snow melt. Well, 686 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 1: what they're actually doing is they're moving up and down 687 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:24,360 Speaker 1: elevation based on resource availability. So as things are greening 688 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 1: up and becoming more succulent, insect communities are thriving, they're 689 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,680 Speaker 1: they're going to shift around and use that. Um. And 690 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 1: you don't see that is that shift is pronounced obviously 691 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 1: saying Eastern's where you know, in most areas they're not living. 692 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:45,400 Speaker 1: Elevation is not a really big thing for them. Um 693 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 1: it can be, you know, Appalachians in some areas it 694 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 1: can be, but usually it's more pronounced than Miriam's. All right, 695 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 1: So that just kind of covering that we talked about 696 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,439 Speaker 1: scouting turkeys so much that you know, if you are 697 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 1: in you know, the western area is where these birds 698 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 1: are going to maybe disperse. You know, the the Miriam's 699 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,320 Speaker 1: and the Rio's are gonna move a little bit farther. 700 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:07,760 Speaker 1: You know, just keep that in mind while you're scouting 701 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 1: that there are birds there now, but they may not 702 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 1: necessarily be there when you come back, or you know, 703 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: when it comes time for season to actually open, you 704 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 1: may need to go. You know, they'll hire a little 705 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: farther to find them. Um. Okay. And then this this, 706 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 1: this question isn't gonna necessarily fit in, but it's something 707 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:24,399 Speaker 1: I've always kind of wondered about. I've read a few 708 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 1: articles on it. When I was growing up turkey hunting 709 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 1: and getting really into it, you know, in the late 710 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,400 Speaker 1: nineties early two thousands. I was doing a bunch of 711 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:36,320 Speaker 1: reading because nobody in western Washington, you know, huntred turkeys. 712 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: The the idiots around here. The only thing we had 713 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 1: any interaction we had with weld turkeys, with somebody shooting 714 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:42,400 Speaker 1: him out of a field with a rifle when they 715 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,759 Speaker 1: seen him. And you know, nobody hunted these things. It 716 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:47,319 Speaker 1: was a bird they shot with a rifle. And so 717 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:49,000 Speaker 1: I was trying to learn, like how do we find him? 718 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,840 Speaker 1: How do we call them? In? Um? And you know, 719 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 1: I can remember reading back when Missouri was like it, 720 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 1: and I might be off by a few years, but 721 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,359 Speaker 1: you know, Missouri was in there heydays. You know, some 722 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:00,880 Speaker 1: of these states back in the Midwest where just you 723 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 1: know loaded, and then now you fast forward one and 724 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 1: some of the numbers that are coming out, like Missouri's 725 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:09,880 Speaker 1: in bad trouble. You know, As I was hunting turkeys 726 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,279 Speaker 1: in Kansas at the gas station, you know, you'd hear 727 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,359 Speaker 1: comments to to Randy and and Chris Parrish like, hey, 728 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 1: you know, turkey seemed to be way down this year, 729 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 1: almost like they're they're at extinction levels almost, you know, 730 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 1: compared to what they were twenty years ago. Um. You know, 731 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 1: some of the articles we read are really putting a 732 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 1: lot of pressure on the youth seasons, and you know 733 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 1: some of the reasons why they feel youth seasons may 734 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: have a bigger effect on the birds even though the 735 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 1: numbers aren't that different. Can you maybe shed some light 736 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:37,920 Speaker 1: onto what your opinion is, whether it is youth seasons, 737 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,440 Speaker 1: whether it's maybe is predation like a lot bigger issue. 738 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 1: You know, we've we've talked before about you know, the 739 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,880 Speaker 1: price of raccoons. Um, you know, there there is no market, 740 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,760 Speaker 1: so nobody wants to go out and trap raccoons anymore, 741 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 1: you know, and bobcats, coyotes. You know, it seems like possums. 742 00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:57,759 Speaker 1: Everything's after after a turkey. But, um, do we have 743 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 1: a good idea yet on maybe what's what's hurting these numbers. 744 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 1: Are youth seasons to blame, is over harvest to blame? 745 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,440 Speaker 1: Is it predators or is it I mean we all 746 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 1: kind of know it's probably a combination. But what's your 747 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,759 Speaker 1: what's your feeling on the biggest impact? Um, it really 748 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: depends on where you are, and and I'll just say 749 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 1: it depends although I know that's a cop out answer, 750 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:25,280 Speaker 1: but the bottom line is Uh, all of these things 751 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 1: that occur on the landscape, habitat issues, predation issues, harvest issues, 752 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:35,480 Speaker 1: weather disease, all these things impact turkeys at at a 753 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 1: local level. The contribution of each one of those things varies. 754 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:44,960 Speaker 1: So saying it's predation, no, it's not just predation, it's predation, 755 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:49,760 Speaker 1: and X y Z saying it's hunting, No, it's not hunting, 756 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:54,400 Speaker 1: it's hunting, and x y z, UH and PDQ and ABC. 757 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,400 Speaker 1: I mean, it just depends on where you are. The 758 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,839 Speaker 1: bottom line is from a turkey's pers effective if you 759 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:04,359 Speaker 1: look big picture, kind of use the coach's view of 760 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,480 Speaker 1: the of the US and the areas where turkeys live. 761 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:12,200 Speaker 1: You know, the big picture. You see that. UM. All 762 00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:14,280 Speaker 1: you have to do is drive across the United States 763 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:16,800 Speaker 1: and look out your window and you will see compared 764 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:23,520 Speaker 1: to twenty years ago, habitat loss. You'll see, uh, habitat degradation, 765 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:26,799 Speaker 1: the existing habitats that we have left or not as 766 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:32,319 Speaker 1: the quality they were. You'll see fragmentation off the charts. UM. 767 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:37,240 Speaker 1: Things that interest you know that split habitat, roads, power lines, 768 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: rights of way, you know, you name it. UM. That 769 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:45,080 Speaker 1: doesn't benefit turkeys, it benefits things that eat turkeys. You 770 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:50,120 Speaker 1: see um, you see a lack of management of properties. 771 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:52,880 Speaker 1: In the South, it could be lack of fire. In 772 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 1: the West, it could be lack of prescribed fire or 773 00:40:55,239 --> 00:41:01,279 Speaker 1: timber harvest. Things that increase early successional habitats. You you 774 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 1: see predator communities are off. You know, they're they're more diverse, 775 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,440 Speaker 1: and they're more abundant than they were historically. There are 776 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:12,200 Speaker 1: more of these things out there period. And if you 777 00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:14,440 Speaker 1: think about it from a turkey's perspective, if you have 778 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:18,960 Speaker 1: less habitat and what is there is has more predators 779 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,600 Speaker 1: in it. That it's math. It's basic math. So we've 780 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,279 Speaker 1: seen that successes is quite a bit lower than it 781 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 1: was historically. We have disease issues that are popping up 782 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,959 Speaker 1: all over the country that we really don't understand. We've 783 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 1: we've known that some diseases affect turkeys and half for 784 00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:38,560 Speaker 1: years and years, and there are some new things that 785 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 1: are emerging that we don't have a good grasp of, 786 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,040 Speaker 1: and we just it's hard to answer questions about disease 787 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:47,600 Speaker 1: because sick birds get eaten and we never know they're there. 788 00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,320 Speaker 1: And you factor in man, we like to hunt this bird, 789 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:57,840 Speaker 1: and you have a bird that is the only bird 790 00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,880 Speaker 1: in the conterminous United States that's unted during their reproductive season. 791 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:06,200 Speaker 1: So we are hunting turkeys, you know, we're hunting the 792 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:09,640 Speaker 1: fall in some places, but by and large, we hunt 793 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,400 Speaker 1: this bird in the spring when they're breeding. And you 794 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 1: throw all that in a blender and and it what 795 00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 1: you end up getting is is the recognition that you 796 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:22,960 Speaker 1: have all these complex issues that are facing this bird, 797 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:27,040 Speaker 1: and managers are trying to manage harvest, and they're trying 798 00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:28,840 Speaker 1: to do that in a way where you and I 799 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:31,360 Speaker 1: can go out and hear birds and and the resource 800 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:38,000 Speaker 1: is sustainable and all that to say that, yeah, populations 801 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,840 Speaker 1: are struggling in some places, and it's got management agencies 802 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:44,920 Speaker 1: really really looking at, Okay, what can we do to 803 00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,520 Speaker 1: change the playing field here? Because people like you and 804 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,600 Speaker 1: I complain because and we have every right too, because 805 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:54,880 Speaker 1: we we cherish this bird and we want to be 806 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:56,440 Speaker 1: able to hunt it. We want to be able to 807 00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,120 Speaker 1: hear it and enjoy it with our families and our friends, 808 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:03,040 Speaker 1: and and we realize that we can't do that. It's 809 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:06,480 Speaker 1: frustrating to us. And and a lot of people are 810 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,799 Speaker 1: frustrated right now because populations are in many areas are declining. 811 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,759 Speaker 1: Not everywhere, but in many areas they are and and 812 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:17,279 Speaker 1: it really has agencies, um has agencies scratching their head 813 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:21,400 Speaker 1: as to what to do. Got you so to paraphrase 814 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,759 Speaker 1: that and hopefully not answer it wrong, is that youth 815 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,600 Speaker 1: seasons may have an impact, which is, we know for 816 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:29,960 Speaker 1: sure they do have an impact, but it might not 817 00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:32,960 Speaker 1: be the you know, the major impact that some of 818 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:36,319 Speaker 1: these articles are seeing. You know, it's a combination of 819 00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:38,319 Speaker 1: of all of these. I don't buy the argument that 820 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,839 Speaker 1: youth seasons are impacting Turkey populations, and the reason being 821 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:45,880 Speaker 1: if you look across if you look across the subspecies 822 00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:49,160 Speaker 1: ranges and you look at what percentage of the total 823 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,520 Speaker 1: harvest is taken by youth hunters, it is a very 824 00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:57,920 Speaker 1: small percentage. Um. Yes, it's typically early, it's typically before 825 00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:02,279 Speaker 1: you know, the general season opens. It ultimately depends on 826 00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:06,040 Speaker 1: the rate of harvest. In other words, if youth hunters 827 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:12,200 Speaker 1: are killing two thousand birds and that is three of 828 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:15,919 Speaker 1: the times and the population, then it's irrelevant. If they're 829 00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,200 Speaker 1: killing of the times, well then that's more relevant. So 830 00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:24,840 Speaker 1: it it these broad sweeping statements about hey, this is it, 831 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:27,319 Speaker 1: it's it's us seasons or its predation, or it's this, 832 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,160 Speaker 1: or it's that. I don't I don't lend a lot 833 00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:34,880 Speaker 1: of credence in those because they there's not information showing 834 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:37,399 Speaker 1: that is the cause. And like we were just talking about, 835 00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,799 Speaker 1: there is no single cause. It's a complex series of 836 00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:45,000 Speaker 1: things that ultimately hinge on how many birds you have, 837 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,439 Speaker 1: how many you're harvesting, what you know, what the net 838 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:51,279 Speaker 1: success rates are. And that's why we do the research, honestly, man, 839 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:53,040 Speaker 1: you know, I mean we do the research because we 840 00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:56,759 Speaker 1: tried to. We're trying to understand these these questions and 841 00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,479 Speaker 1: and give people answers because we know, as human beings 842 00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:12,560 Speaker 1: we want to answer you know. Yeah, Yeah, I'm gonna 843 00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,920 Speaker 1: close up with the question I've been asking everybody if 844 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,320 Speaker 1: you could give one or two small pieces of advice 845 00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:20,600 Speaker 1: that you think would make a turkey hunter more successful? 846 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,560 Speaker 1: What would those what would those two things be? Um 847 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,360 Speaker 1: going into the spring, say, say you're struggling, you know, 848 00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:28,960 Speaker 1: what are those like two little keys that you kind 849 00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:38,520 Speaker 1: of you have? I tell myself every day, be more patient, um, 850 00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:42,920 Speaker 1: be more thoughtful. In other words, don't be so reactive 851 00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:47,680 Speaker 1: to the situation you're in. Sometimes you have to slow 852 00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:50,440 Speaker 1: down to go fast. I don't know if you're well. 853 00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,200 Speaker 1: I'm an old NASCAR fan. I don't watch Nascar anymore, 854 00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:55,719 Speaker 1: but they'll Earnhardt used to say, sometimes you have to 855 00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:59,400 Speaker 1: slow down and go fast. And in turkey hunting and 856 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,560 Speaker 1: in life in general, I think sometimes if you slow down, 857 00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:07,680 Speaker 1: you end up being more successful. Analyze the situation, be patient, 858 00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:11,080 Speaker 1: be willing to sit longer. And that kind of dovetails 859 00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:13,200 Speaker 1: into my second piece of advice. And I tell people 860 00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:15,080 Speaker 1: this every spring, and I do that. I try to 861 00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:17,719 Speaker 1: do this myself. I don't. I'm not always successful. I 862 00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,640 Speaker 1: do it with my deer hunting well. I love fanatical 863 00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:26,600 Speaker 1: deer hunter. Sit longer, stay out there, fifteen minutes longer, 864 00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:30,240 Speaker 1: thirty minutes longer. You know, I get out of stand 865 00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:31,880 Speaker 1: at ten o'clock. I'm like hot hell with him. I 866 00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,200 Speaker 1: ain't seen a deer in three hours. And I'm like, Okay, nope, 867 00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,320 Speaker 1: I'm gonna sit until ten fifteen. I'll sit utill ten thirty. 868 00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,400 Speaker 1: And by doing that, the worst thing that's going to 869 00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:44,360 Speaker 1: happen is you're going to have an extra half hour 870 00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:48,960 Speaker 1: in his creation, enjoying what's around you. That's the worst 871 00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:51,319 Speaker 1: possible outcome of that, well, I'll say that. I mean, 872 00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:53,200 Speaker 1: you could get run over by a truck or whatever 873 00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:55,440 Speaker 1: it is. But the bottom line is you're going to 874 00:46:55,520 --> 00:47:00,000 Speaker 1: spend more time in a place you cherish, and sometimes 875 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,160 Speaker 1: times that's successful for you. Be more patient, to be 876 00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:06,200 Speaker 1: willing to sit longer, spend more time in the in 877 00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:09,640 Speaker 1: the spring woods, and if nothing else you're going to 878 00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:14,560 Speaker 1: you're going to be enriched by the experiences that you have. Yeah, 879 00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:16,719 Speaker 1: for sure, I completely agree with that. And you know, 880 00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:20,080 Speaker 1: everything that we're chasing, whether it's you know, elk predators, 881 00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:22,800 Speaker 1: you know, dear whatever we're calling to, I think that 882 00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,000 Speaker 1: that advice can can you know underlie all of that that, Yeah, 883 00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:28,160 Speaker 1: you spend a little more time and and you know, 884 00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,279 Speaker 1: good things are probably gonna happen, you know, during that 885 00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:34,160 Speaker 1: extra time. So well, thank you very much, Mike. Like 886 00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:35,880 Speaker 1: I said, you know, you're a wealth of knowledge. We 887 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:38,840 Speaker 1: could have talked about anything to do is uh spring Turkey, 888 00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:40,640 Speaker 1: but I picked out a few of my my own 889 00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:42,799 Speaker 1: personal questions I wanted to ask you, and I really 890 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,560 Speaker 1: appreciate you taking your time, and uh, yeah, I really 891 00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:47,080 Speaker 1: enjoy the spring this year. It looks like you have 892 00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:49,080 Speaker 1: a full plate and I wish you the best and 893 00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:52,520 Speaker 1: good luck to Spring. Yeah you too, Jayson, best luck 894 00:47:52,560 --> 00:48:01,520 Speaker 1: to you. Ou