1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio. 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:08,559 Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both, 3 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:11,560 Speaker 1: where I get to talk to people I admire about 4 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: topics that are important to us. And today we're talking 5 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:20,080 Speaker 1: about books. You know, books have been a part of 6 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: my life for as long as I can remember. I 7 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: adore reading. It's truly one of my favorite things to do. 8 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: I do it every chance I get. All kinds of 9 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: books have kept me company, of educated and inspired me. 10 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 1: And I thought, as we're moving in toward the holidays, 11 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 1: we should all be thinking about how we're going to 12 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: slow down and read books that will transport us out 13 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 1: of where we are from our quarantine situations. So today 14 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: I'll be talking to Marley Dias. Marley, when she was 15 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: just ten years old, started one thousand Black Girl Books. 16 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: That was her campaign to collect and donate children's books 17 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:07,639 Speaker 1: that featured black girls because she just wasn't seeing books 18 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: like that in her classes or in her school library. 19 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: I will also be talking to Stacy Abrams. Now you've 20 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: heard from Stacy before on this podcast, but this time 21 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: we're talking about something very different than politics. We're going 22 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 1: to talk about the romance novels she writes under her 23 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: pen name Selena Montgomery. But first I'm talking with award 24 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: winning crime novelist Louise Penny. Louise has written sixteen books 25 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: in her Inspector Gamash series. They're set in the fictional 26 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: town of Three Pines, which is a place that she 27 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: invented across the border from Vermont in eastern Quebec, and 28 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: she has populated it with some of the most interesting 29 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: characters in action. I love her books. I've read every 30 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: single one of them. And if you haven't read any 31 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,519 Speaker 1: of Louise Penny's books, or you haven't heard Louise, Wow, 32 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: you have a real treat coming. I want to start 33 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: by saying that I knew of Louise's work before I 34 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 1: knew Louise, and the reason I knew about her and 35 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: started reading her with the very first book in her 36 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: series years ago, is because my dear dear friend Betsy Evelyn, 37 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: was a big fan. And one of the things that 38 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 1: Betsy and I did throughout all the decades of our 39 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: friendship was to exchange ideas about books to read and 40 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: books that could just literally lift you out of the 41 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: day to day. So Louise is one of those writers 42 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 1: who we both mutually fell in love with and then, 43 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: as fate would have it, Betsy got to meet Louise 44 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,919 Speaker 1: in summer of sixteen, and then I got to meet Louise, 45 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: and then we got to be great friends. So I 46 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: just can't tell you how pleased I am to be 47 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 1: talking with you today, Louise, And are you Hillary? This 48 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: is fantastic home know, well, today we want to talk 49 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: about and explore the idea of escaping through what we read. 50 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 1: And I think that's particularly important right now given what's 51 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 1: happening around the world. And so let me start by 52 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: asking you, Louise, when did you fall in love with mysteries? Well, 53 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: I didn't start reading mysteries until I was probably in 54 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: my early teens because I never read Nancy Drew. I 55 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: don't know how I missed Nancy Drew, but you fell 56 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: told you that's how you started. Absolutely yes, and and 57 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: the Hardy Boys, but they were, you know, a distant 58 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: second to Nancy Drew. Right, exactly how I could have 59 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: missed Nancy Drew. I was reading and Green Gables and 60 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: all of the Oh yes, But I remember clearly the 61 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: first time because I was a voracious reader as a child, 62 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: but never crime novels. And I remember coming up the stairs. 63 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: We had a cottage north of Montreal in the Laurentians, 64 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: and we were there for the summer, and I came 65 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: upstairs and my mother came out of the bedroom and 66 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: it was mid afternoon or so, and she was holding 67 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: a book and she said, you know, I just finished 68 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: this book, and I think you'd like it. And she 69 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: handed it to me and it was still warm from 70 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 1: her hands, and it was an Agatha Christie and it 71 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 1: was the first time that my mother and I shared 72 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 1: a book. It's become magic since then, and I've had 73 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: such a soft spot for Christie since then as well, 74 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: and and for crime novels. One of the questions I'd 75 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: love to find out from you is how did you 76 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 1: come to Nancy Drew. I think Nancy Drew was recommended 77 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: by the librarian in my public library. And I used 78 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: to go with my mother when I was too young 79 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:04,799 Speaker 1: to go by myself, to our local, very small public library, 80 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: and the librarian said, oh, I think you'd like this. 81 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: It's about a girl who has adventures and solves mysteries. 82 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: So that's how I started reading Nancy Drew. And it 83 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 1: was a kind of absurd story that the sixteen year 84 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 1: old girl her father was a widower and she literally 85 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: could go anywhere and drive her own roadster. Uh out 86 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: to solve mysteries, but it just took me. And then 87 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: I discovered Agatha Christie like you did, and fell in 88 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:34,799 Speaker 1: love with how economic her stories were and how clever 89 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 1: they were. But I want to get back to you 90 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: because you're the one who's actually producing these extraordinary stories 91 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: that give me a lot of delight and escapism. So 92 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:50,479 Speaker 1: tell us how you got started writing mysteries. I wasn't 93 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 1: actually going to write a mystery. I was a journalist 94 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: at the CBC and I was tired, and I'd covered 95 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: one too many Quebec sovereignty referendum. Quebec has quite stressful politics, 96 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: and I had frankly burned out. It is a little 97 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: embarrassing to say to you, Hillary Clinton, that I burned 98 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: out on Canadian politics. But I I Michael, my husband. 99 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:17,479 Speaker 1: I came home one day and he said, look, I 100 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 1: know you've always wanted to write. If if you want 101 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 1: to quit work in order to write your book, I 102 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 1: will support you. So I quit work and then suffered 103 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: five years of writer's block. I got to the stage, Hillary, 104 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: where Michael, You're going to work every day? By bye, honey, 105 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: good Luck had come home and he stopped asking how 106 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: the book was going. It was right up there with 107 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 1: when I turned thirty five and my mother stopped asking 108 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: if I'd met any nice man lately. And then I 109 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 1: moved Michael and I moved out of Montreal down south, 110 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 1: quite close to the Vermont border, and I fell in 111 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:54,799 Speaker 1: with a group of women, all of whom were creative, 112 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,359 Speaker 1: and they taught me something that should have been self evident, 113 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: but I realized is that I was just riddled with 114 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: fear and insecurity and something that has been um a 115 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 1: challenge for me most of my life, and that is 116 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: the need for the approval of others, or the really 117 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: more the fear of disapproval. So what would happen if 118 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: I tried and failed and they taught me? And I 119 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: saw it in what they did and their courage to 120 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 1: create and put it out there, was that the trying 121 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: and the failing and the judgment of others wouldn't kill me. 122 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: What was killing me, quietly was the not trying. So 123 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: I decided I would write a crime novel, and I 124 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: would write it just for myself, just write it for 125 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: the joy of it. This happened actually shortly after nine eleven. 126 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: I realized that no place is safe, that anything can 127 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: happen at any time, and there's no no safety, physical safety. 128 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: So I started writing. I wrote for two or three years, 129 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: and then I finally I'd finished the book. And do 130 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: you want me to go on? Because I feel like 131 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: I'm just doing a monologue here, Ghilary. I hate to, 132 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: but your eyes are still open. My eyes are open, 133 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: My ears are, you know, very open, despite having headphones on. 134 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: I think this is such a it's it's not only 135 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: a great story about what you did overcoming fear of failure, 136 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: overcoming the perfectionist gene that unfortunately afflicts a lot of women, 137 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: being willing to do something for yourself that, as you say, 138 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: gave joy to you. And then you finished. You know, 139 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 1: I love the characters that you have created, and I've 140 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: often heard you say that you created characters that you 141 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:40,599 Speaker 1: would want to spend time with. Take us inside your process, 142 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: because it's really the characters that I think drive your 143 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: plot and drive the success of your series, because people 144 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: want to know what's happening to them. Yeah, there was 145 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 1: conscious partly because I didn't think the books would be published, 146 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 1: so I had to enjoy the process that might be 147 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: the only reward I would get. But that whole sense 148 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 1: of the village was done deliberately because of again nine eleven, 149 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: and that understanding and profound appreciation that anything can happen 150 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 1: at any time, and that our as I said before, 151 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: our physical bodies are never going to be safe. There's 152 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: no way. Eventually we'll all die and we don't know how, 153 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: we don't know when there's there's no guarantee of physical safety. 154 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:27,559 Speaker 1: There is, however, a way to guarantee emotional and spiritual safety. 155 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: And the way to do that and the only way 156 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: I can figure out to do that is through a 157 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: sense of belonging of community. And that's what I wanted 158 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: Three Pines to be, was that safe place for our souls, 159 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:44,959 Speaker 1: for our emotions. Where there are flawed people, there are 160 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: kind people. There are people who are occasionally cruel, but 161 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: there is beyond all else acceptance, where people are genuinely friends, 162 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 1: where goodness exists. The books are about terror, but at 163 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 1: the end of the day, they're an l get to 164 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: goodness and that goodness exists and will triumph I believe 165 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: that I've seen it in my life, and it's something 166 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: I cling to in these days, that goodness will triumph. 167 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: We're taking a quick break. Stay with us. But of course, 168 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,199 Speaker 1: just as in life, there is no such thing as 169 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 1: absolute safety, and so the community keeps being interrupted by murder. 170 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: For a very small little place, you know, kind of 171 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: north of the Vermont border and east turn back, there 172 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: are a lot of dead bodies that are there. And 173 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: how the different characters, of course react to that and 174 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: what they know or what they shouldn't know but don't 175 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 1: realize they do, And and it truly is a joy 176 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:59,319 Speaker 1: to read because you're discovering as you go this underlying 177 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: tension between good and evil, between cruelty and kindness. And 178 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: I want to sort of circle back to why people 179 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: read for escape, especially mysteries. Why is it that the mystery, 180 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: the crime story has just sustained itself. I guess from 181 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 1: probably the Greeks to the Romans? Right, do you know, Hillary? 182 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:24,959 Speaker 1: I wish I knew. I think a lot of people 183 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 1: like puzzles, and mysteries are often puzzles, and so you 184 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: can escape into who did it? And where the clues 185 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: and so you can leave your own troubles behind. I 186 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: think with crime novels mysteries, often you know it's going 187 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 1: to be solved, that there will be an end and 188 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: an answer, and in this life so rarely are there 189 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 1: actually clear answers to all of our troubles. I think 190 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: for my books there's also, as you put your finger on, 191 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: there's also the sense of community and belonging that I 192 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: think also adds a layer of comfort that the books, 193 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: while clearly and happily novels, are actually about other things. 194 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: What do you think, like, why do you read crime novels? Well, 195 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 1: I will tell you I read a certain kind of 196 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: crime novel because a lot of what's called crime or 197 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: thriller novels to me are so formulaic and filled with 198 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:26,439 Speaker 1: bloody violence and without much depth of character development, and 199 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 1: so I don't particularly respond to those. I find them 200 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: like just an anvil hitting me in the head as 201 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: one more horrible dismemberment of some young woman happens. So 202 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 1: I'm interested in character development along with the mystery, and 203 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: we need a setting that is different. You know. One 204 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: of the things I love about your books and why 205 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,719 Speaker 1: I find that escape in them, is yes, you may 206 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: be in the same place in Eastern Quebec, in Three Pine, 207 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 1: in Montreal, you know, in Quebec City. Those are the 208 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:07,680 Speaker 1: places that you have populated. But you feel as though 209 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 1: you're learning something, You're expanding your understanding of a place, 210 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: like for example, I personally did not know that people 211 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: loyal to the British crown helped to settle eastern Quebec 212 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:23,319 Speaker 1: until I started reading your books. So little things like that, 213 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: which are you know, worth noting to, you know, larger 214 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: questions about corruption inside police forces, something that you know 215 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: we're clearly dealing with right now in our own country. 216 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: So I read for plot and character and place and 217 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 1: learning something. And yes, I also like the outcomes of 218 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: mysteries because in the vast majority of the ones that 219 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:51,599 Speaker 1: I like, the bad guy gets has come up. And 220 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: you know, so I read and I learn, and I escape, 221 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 1: and I can go deeper and I can feel a 222 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: connection to your characters. That's what keeps me, you know, 223 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,959 Speaker 1: coming back time and again. And I guess I want 224 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 1: to ask in reverse, do you think you started writing 225 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:16,839 Speaker 1: and continue writing as a form of escape. I've never 226 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: been asked that before. I didn't realize I did until 227 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: Michael got sick, as you know, with dementia, particularly near 228 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: the end, and I thought I wouldn't be able to 229 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: write through it, but it turned out to be the opposite. 230 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: So I would look after Michael and get into bed, 231 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: and then I'd come out and I would be able 232 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: to escape into this world I had created oddly enough 233 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: so that other people could be comforted. Never occurred to 234 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: me that I would be the main beneficiary, not only 235 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: because I could control it, and I think there was 236 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: part of that, but it was so comfortable being with 237 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: these friends, and I could write and write and write, 238 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: and I could feel all my fear, all the terror 239 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: slipping a way. So yeah, yeah, you're right, I do 240 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: and through this the pandemic. For the first little while, 241 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: I was so distracted and kind of distraught, I found 242 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 1: it difficult to focus. But after that I found it 243 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: such a comfort to be able to right and write 244 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: what it is I write. I don't write about a 245 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: world that's worse than the one I actually live in. 246 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: You know that is so meaningful to me to hear 247 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: you say that. I think what you have given as 248 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: a gift to your millions and millions of readers is 249 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: that ability to breathe, to just exhale, to find that 250 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: moment of release and some separation of the day to 251 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: day pressures and stresses and craziness that we are living through. 252 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: So for a million reasons, I am grateful for you 253 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: and the characters you have created. And I just can't 254 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: wait to see where these characters of yours take us 255 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: next time, because there's always going to be a huge 256 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: need for escape. Well what you just said, I mean, 257 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: I can feel my eyes burning. Thank you. Louise's latest book, 258 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 1: All the Devils Are Here, is on shelves now and 259 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: it's terrific. In it, she takes Inspector Gamash and his 260 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: family out of Quebec for the first time and transports 261 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: them to Paris. You will feel like you're right in Paris, 262 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: as yes, crimes are committed and Gamash has to once 263 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: again come to the forefront. Look for it now at 264 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: your local bookstore. Our next guest needs no introduction. I 265 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: know you've heard of Stacy Abrahams, and I hope you've 266 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: heard her speaking on this podcast about her work protecting 267 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: the vote in Georgia and across our country. But you 268 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: might not know that Stacy also writes romantic suspense novels 269 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: under the pen name Selena Montgomery. Selena has written eight books, 270 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:15,959 Speaker 1: including two parts of a trilogy that got put on 271 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: hold after Stacy was elected to the Georgia House of 272 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 1: Representatives in two thousand and seven. I'm delighted to be 273 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 1: talking to Stacy Abrahams again. I am going to start 274 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: by asking Stacy, this extraordinary person whom I have come 275 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: to not only admire but have great affection for, how 276 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:46,640 Speaker 1: in the world did you ever start writing romance novels 277 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: set the stage for us? Where were you, what were 278 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: you doing? And why? So? I have always loved romance novels. 279 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:58,959 Speaker 1: My mom and my great aunt Jeanette actually collected them. 280 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 1: My mom was librarian who kept every book she ever had, 281 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: and my great aunt Janette loved them, and so my 282 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: sisters and I really grew up loving romance novels. We 283 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 1: graduated from Barbara Cartland to Harlequin and finally into the 284 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 1: Silhouette universe, which was spicier. We also watched soap operas religiously, 285 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: so we watched ABC, so you know Bryant's Hope all 286 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: my children, but General Hospital was where it was at. 287 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 1: I was an angst written teenager who was not allowed 288 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 1: to date till I was sixteen. So I wrote my 289 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,199 Speaker 1: first romance novel, which I think was all of like 290 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: fifteen pages, when I was in junior high school. But 291 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 1: it was in law school actually at our mutual alma mater, 292 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: when I decided to write a novel. It actually wanted 293 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: to write a spye novel. My plan was to write 294 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 1: this espionage novel based on my ex boyfriends dissertation. He 295 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 1: was a chemical physicist and he did his dissertation on 296 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 1: this thing called micro zeolite technology. It was an interesting dissertation, 297 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 1: but the concepts were amazing, and so I'm calling him, 298 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 1: having been one of five people to read his dissertation, saying, 299 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: oh my god, you could do these things with it. 300 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: And he was like, you can't do any of that, 301 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: Like this is why we broke up. You have no imagination. 302 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:10,399 Speaker 1: So I got ready to write the book. Talked to 303 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: a few friends who were in law school who've been publishing, 304 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: and they said, you're never going to sell a spy novel. 305 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: It's and they said, look, publishers don't buy spine novels 306 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: by or about women. They said, are you planning for 307 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: your characters? To look like you and like, well yeah, 308 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 1: and they said, well, then then you're definitely not going 309 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: to sell it because at that point, African American main 310 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 1: characters in suspense just didn't really exist. And so I 311 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: thought about it and being a problem solver, I decided, like, 312 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: I know, I've read novels about women spies, not anyone black, 313 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 1: but I've I've seen it before and I was like, wait, 314 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: it was romance. And so I killed the same number 315 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 1: of people. I wrote the exact same story. I just 316 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: made my spies fall in up. So you decide you're 317 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: going to do this, and when you started thinking about it, 318 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:03,880 Speaker 1: you knew you wanted your character's, particularly your lead character, 319 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,479 Speaker 1: to be an African American woman. Absolutely, And is that 320 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,239 Speaker 1: because you had not really seen very many characters who 321 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: look like you in these books that you love to 322 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,919 Speaker 1: read growing up. That was a huge part of it, 323 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:21,360 Speaker 1: particularly in the romance space. I think by when I 324 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 1: was really working on it, there had been perhaps two 325 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 1: to five women. So Beverly Jenkins, who's sort of the 326 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:34,199 Speaker 1: godmother of black romance, Brenda Jackson, had broken through, but 327 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 1: most black women who were writing in romantic veins were 328 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 1: either relegated to historical fiction, which is what Beverly just 329 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: does so extraordinarily well. And then you had on the 330 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: other side what was called urban fiction. And what I 331 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: wanted to do was I wanted to write about a 332 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 1: chemical physicist. I at one point thought I would be 333 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,199 Speaker 1: a physicist. I was, you know, very sad that the 334 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: CIA never recruited me to be a spat And so 335 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: for me, it was as much about writing stories that 336 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: I was never given to read, but it was also 337 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,360 Speaker 1: I wanted to write a story where I could live 338 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: out my alternate universe fantasy. And it was a multi 339 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:20,199 Speaker 1: racial coalition of spies and my boyfriend is still languishing 340 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: in prison in the in the novel, it was a 341 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,360 Speaker 1: bad came back for lack of imagining. It did, and 342 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 1: you know, we we we didn't have the nicest breakup 343 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: at the time. We got over it, but it was 344 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:35,399 Speaker 1: it was it was about situating myself and situating my 345 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 1: community in this space that we were able to tell, 346 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,239 Speaker 1: you know, a range of stories, and I wanted to 347 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: be able to see myself, see my siblings, see our 348 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,919 Speaker 1: our world included in this broader narrative about what it 349 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,880 Speaker 1: meant to be in fiction. I think that first book 350 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: was that Rules of Engagement was at your first one? 351 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: That was it? And so when did you finish that? 352 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 1: So I finished it during law school. I was on 353 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: an intensive semester, which is this program at Yale where 354 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 1: you get to go anywhere and study. I in contrast 355 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 1: to my very exotic selection of books, I went home 356 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: to Mississippi to write about the charity tax credit that 357 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,640 Speaker 1: had been passed under the Clinton administration. And I really 358 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 1: want to think about how the charity tax credit worked 359 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: for religious organizations. And my parents were both ministers, so 360 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 1: I was examining that. So I'm writing this very detailed 361 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: treatise on tax policy at the exact same time I 362 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: started writing my novel. And one of the moments that 363 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: I remember so clearly, I had sent off the first 364 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,479 Speaker 1: three chapters. Because if you read all the publishers weekly 365 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 1: tropes about how to sell a novel, I sent the 366 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: first three chapters off and it said you you'll expect 367 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 1: a response in twelve to twenty four weeks. I got 368 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: a response back in six I did not have a book, 369 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 1: and so I'm in the car with my mom and 370 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 1: I hand her the letter because I'm driving, and she 371 00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: reads it to me, and then she says, and there 372 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: are looking forward to receiving the whole novel. And I 373 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: nearly crashed the car on the highway because I'm like, 374 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 1: oh god, there is no book. So I learned I'm 375 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: a very fast writer. You had to be. I did. So. 376 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,719 Speaker 1: I finished the book in about seven weeks that was published. 377 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: And how did because I know what you've published? What seven? 378 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: Is that? Right? Eight? One thing that strikes me about 379 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 1: your novels and about the reasons why you do it, 380 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: I mean romance and as you rightly said, thrillers spine 381 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 1: novels have been historically very white, so you're venturing into 382 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: this genre. Do you have any idea of the tens 383 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: of thousands of your books that you've sold, you know, 384 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: do you have white readers? Have you met people who say, Hey, 385 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,679 Speaker 1: I love your character, or I really related to it, 386 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 1: or I didn't know what to expect, but I'm glad 387 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: I picked it up. I do. I I have two 388 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: sets of readers that I think we're contrary to what 389 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 1: was expected, because part of the way romance sells is 390 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: the covers exactly and the minute a black person, a 391 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: person of colors on the cover, You're not only pulled 392 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: out of the romance genre and put on your own 393 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: special shelf. That shelf is usually out of the way. 394 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: You've got to go look for black romance. You have 395 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,199 Speaker 1: to go look for Latino romance or A A p I. 396 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 1: And so by declaring my character race, I was removed 397 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: from the general space where I could sell my books. 398 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 1: What benefited me actually was two sets of readers, so 399 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: white women who would write me and tell me I 400 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 1: don't usually read black romance. And I'm like, there's no 401 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: such thing as black romance. There's romance, and the characters 402 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 1: happened to be black. Look, I mean, the romance in 403 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: your books is kind of steamy, that kinds across every 404 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 1: possible category. Although I acknowledge that for those who were 405 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 1: thinking they were going to get steamy your My parents 406 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 1: are ministers and my mom's church used to read my books, 407 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,439 Speaker 1: so you know, in the current universe of steamy, I 408 00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: am tea kettle, I am not volcano. So but the 409 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 1: second group that read my book there was a I 410 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 1: got this amazing letter, this guy who called himself that 411 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 1: he was the head of the paper bag gang, and 412 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 1: I'm like, what is this? And This is this white 413 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 1: construction worker who was sick and his wife gave him 414 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: a copy of my book and he was like, I 415 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 1: don't read this stuff. And he was like, she's like, 416 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: just shut up and read the book. And he liked 417 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,439 Speaker 1: it so much he took it with him, but he 418 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 1: wanted to rip off the cover and his wife was like, no, 419 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: he's hot, you can't take the cover off. And so 420 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,159 Speaker 1: he put it in a brown paper bag and he 421 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: took it to work and he shared it with his 422 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,199 Speaker 1: friends at the construction site and they started reading my books. 423 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 1: And so I know I have cut across you know, 424 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:51,639 Speaker 1: demographics with my writing. That's so great. And you know, 425 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: part of what I've read that you know you've said 426 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,399 Speaker 1: is that you you wanted to show that black women 427 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: were just as adventurous, uh and a active as any 428 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: white woman. And the same for the men. I mean, 429 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 1: you know, the men you write about are equally compelling 430 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: and sexy and interesting and all the rest. And I 431 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 1: want to be clear, I do not intend to diminish 432 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: culturally specific writing at all. I think it is important, 433 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: it is relevant, it is necessary, but it should be 434 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: the choice of the author, not the assumption of the 435 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 1: publisher or of the bookstore and bookseller to say that 436 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: the only people who would read this are people who 437 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: share your phenotype, because I've read everything. I read James Joyce, 438 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: and I read Nora Roberts, and i read Walter Mosley 439 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: and Beverly Jenkins, and there is no expectation in my 440 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,159 Speaker 1: mind that I'm not permitted to read James Joyce because 441 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: I'm not a white Irish guy. Exactly why would there 442 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 1: be the presumption that you could not read my books 443 00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: simply because I described the characters with mocha and chocolates 444 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 1: in as opposed to pale ivory. Exactly how did you 445 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: come up with your pen name? Is there a story 446 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 1: behind Montgomery? So? As I said, I started writing in 447 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 1: law school, and as you know, there are two papers 448 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: you have to write. My second paper was on the 449 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: operational dissonance of the unrelated business income tax exemption. I 450 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 1: finished that paper during the end of law school. I 451 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 1: submitted it to the Yale Law and Policy Review and 452 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: they they picked it up. So I was going to 453 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: be published my my first publication and tax policy at 454 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,239 Speaker 1: the exact same time that my romance novel was going 455 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,919 Speaker 1: to come to the marketplace. And this is all at 456 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:43,159 Speaker 1: the time that Google was having its debut. If Google 457 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 1: was going to be this real thing, if you looked 458 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 1: up my name trying to buy my romance novel, you 459 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: would likely pick up my tax policy. And I didn't 460 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,400 Speaker 1: think anyone was interested in reading Romance by Alan Greenspan, 461 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,920 Speaker 1: and so I like, well, I'll come up in the 462 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: new name. I was watching an A and E biography 463 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,199 Speaker 1: of Elizabeth Montgomery, who played Samantha on Bewitched, and I 464 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: was like, I like Montgomery, and I thought about her 465 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: her evil cousin, Serena, and I was like, I don't 466 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: like Serena, but Selena. And so I became Selena Montgomery. 467 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: It was about two thirty in the morning, so the 468 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: story was much more interesting at night than it is 469 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: in the daytime. But that's how I became Selena Montgomery. 470 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: And I assumed Google has figured that out, so people 471 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 1: now google you. Stacy Abrahams saw her on TV. Love 472 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: what she said, Selena may pop up. So there's a 473 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 1: little cognitive dissonance going on there. But I was never 474 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: ashamed of it because part of the reason I loved 475 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 1: writing these stories is that there's a humanity to romance. 476 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: There's a humanity to talking about as you said, you know, flawed, intelligent, 477 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: interesting people. And in the process of writing, I was 478 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: connected even more deeply to the people I wanted to serve, 479 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: to the people I lived with and around, and for 480 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: me was ever a moment of shame. I mean, it's 481 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,479 Speaker 1: fantastic writing, but think about it. I mean, when you 482 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 1: strip it all away, people's relationships, obviously their love relationships, 483 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: but also their family relationships. You have a great character 484 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: in Reckless Um who's a criminal defense lawyer who had 485 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: been orphaned, her relationship with the woman who took her in. 486 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: I mean, building relationships and then centering the love interest 487 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: in the broader relational situation. I mean, that's how we live, 488 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: that's who we are. But your last Selena Montgomery novel 489 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: came out in two thousand and nine. So for all 490 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 1: those readers out there, for the paperbag guys, for everybody else, 491 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: have you retired from writing romantic novels or should we 492 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: expect to come back? So here's what happened. The next novel, 493 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: the third in the trilogy, was going to be written 494 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,479 Speaker 1: in but that was the year I got elected as 495 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: Leader of the House Democrats. I started a new financial 496 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: services company, and I kind of ran out a little 497 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 1: bit of time because they wanted me not just to 498 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: commit to that book until multi year contract or multi 499 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 1: book contract, and I try to be thoughtful. What I 500 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: did that was thoughtless was that I did not tell 501 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: the story of the final character in the trilogy. So 502 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: I promise I'll get it done. And so Selina will 503 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 1: make her final bow sometime soon, as soon as I 504 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: find some time to get it done. But Stacy will 505 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: be writing under her multiple personalities for as long as 506 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 1: I have breath. Sounds like a plan to me, my friend. 507 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Stacy, and keep going, stay well. 508 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: It has been a delight. Thank you so much to 509 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: Madame Secretary. You can find Stacy's romance novels under her 510 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: pen name Selina Montgomery, and they make great holiday gifts 511 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: and I love this. She reads only joined a group 512 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: of her fellow romance novelists in fundraising for Georgia Democrats. 513 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 1: The effort is called Romancing the Runoff. My last guest 514 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 1: today is only fifteen years old, but boy has she 515 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: accomplished a lot in those fifteen years. Right after graduating 516 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: from fifth grade, Marley Das pointed out to her parents 517 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 1: that none of the characters and the books that she 518 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: read at school looked like her, so she started the 519 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 1: one Thousand Black Girl Books campaign to fill school libraries 520 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 1: and curriculums with children's books that feature black girls as 521 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: the lead protagonists. Since then, she's written her own book 522 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: called Marley Days, Gets It Done and so can You. 523 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: And in addition to all of that, she has a 524 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: fantastic show on Netflix called book Marks that's all about 525 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: books and reading. And I also loved seeing her featured 526 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: at the Democratic National Convention this summer, Marley, I could 527 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: not be happier to talk with you again. I loved 528 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: seeing you featured at the Democratic Convention. That was really 529 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: fun to watch. I hope it was fun for you. 530 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 1: It was. I was definitely nervous and I was apprehensive 531 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: about it, but it was so cool to see that 532 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 1: like I represented New Jersey, I represented young people, and 533 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: I represented girls, So it was a lot of fun. 534 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: That is so great. Well, I want to talk with 535 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: you about a lot of different things, but I'm going 536 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 1: to start with one of my favorite subjects and yours, 537 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: and that is reading. And I love that. Ever since 538 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: you were a little girl, reading has been important to you. 539 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: Do you remember the first character in a book that 540 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: you saw yourself in? So I had a lot of 541 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: opportunities as a little kid to see myself, and I 542 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: think for me, presentation was never an issue in my home, 543 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 1: but it was an issue in my school. So whenever 544 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 1: I would go to my local bookstore, my parents, whatever 545 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 1: age I was, I would get that many books. So 546 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 1: when I was too they would buy two books. But 547 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: I remember that I kind of started to get hooked 548 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 1: when my dad would only take me because it was 549 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: at ten, and my mom was like, I'm not paying 550 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: for ten books now, I'm not doing that. So I 551 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 1: think I always had a love for reading, and my 552 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: parents had really like fostered that within me by you know, 553 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 1: making it a gift rather than a punishment. Um. But 554 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: then when I got to school, everything was assigned. We 555 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 1: didn't have a say. I couldn't choose how many or 556 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: when I wanted to read. I just had to do 557 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: it when I was told to. And that can definitely 558 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 1: stifle and limit some students, especially if their parents can't 559 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: afford or don't have access to books in their home. 560 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: So for me, it was like then when I had 561 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 1: the opportunity to kind of have those rigid lines and rules, 562 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: they didn't allow for me to see myself. I felt 563 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 1: like the rules were kind of misrepresenting the student body, 564 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 1: who I was and what I believed in. Well, and 565 00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: then you decided to do something about it. Yeah, Well, 566 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: my mom and pushed me to which is what I 567 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 1: really admired and how I first heard about you. What 568 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 1: started your campaign that led to one thousand you know, 569 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:14,280 Speaker 1: black girl books, hashtag and program and and and books 570 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,360 Speaker 1: and everything else that you've been doing. Yeah, the campaign 571 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 1: has evolved so much from the beginning, but it was 572 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,720 Speaker 1: essentially that, you know, I had to go to school. 573 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: Reading became a heavy push, especially towards the endevelopmentary school. 574 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 1: But the books never had black girls as the main character. 575 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: And if I wanted to change my library, my parents 576 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: could do that easily. But when I complained to my mom, 577 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: she kind of explained to me that this issue can 578 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 1: affect you, but also think about the kids that don't 579 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: have that access, and she encouraged me to do something 580 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 1: about it because she doesn't like to hear me complain. 581 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 1: It's just a simple parent wanting to solve a problem. 582 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,879 Speaker 1: That she was tired of me complaining, so we thought 583 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 1: about it more. We did research, and we learned that 584 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: both with the publishing houses, curriculums that are made and teachers, 585 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: books are not being pushed that have diverse characters, and 586 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: we need to push all types of stories, not stories 587 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 1: of black girls. So I wanted to collect one thousand 588 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,439 Speaker 1: books where black girls were the main characters to solve 589 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: the issue in my school, but then also to help 590 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 1: kids in Jamaica and then all across the world and 591 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 1: the country to see themselves and to see people that 592 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: are not like them. We'll be right back, we'll explain 593 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:21,879 Speaker 1: exactly what you have accomplished. So one thousand black girl 594 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 1: books has now kind of stemmed off into so many 595 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 1: other things. But first the first goal is to collect 596 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 1: and donate books where black girls in the main characters. 597 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: Then we extended which we as me and my mom 598 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,320 Speaker 1: because she helps me do everything and I don't know everything. 599 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:36,800 Speaker 1: Then she helped me with coming up with the resource 600 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 1: guide that has a list of a thousand books that 601 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 1: we have collected, so the titles, the author, the age level, 602 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 1: so that teachers and educators can find these books and 603 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: they don't have the excuse that there are none out there, 604 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 1: because you know, through my work, I realized there are 605 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 1: a ton out there, they're just not in schools. And 606 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,240 Speaker 1: now it's kind of transformed into me writing my own book, 607 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:57,880 Speaker 1: which was to encourage people my age to believe that 608 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 1: they like to play basketball, they like to saying if 609 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 1: they like to draw all these interests and my love 610 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 1: of reading can be used to help other people, and 611 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 1: they're not limited to. Social activism is completely separate from 612 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,359 Speaker 1: liking things and having fun things to do in your 613 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 1: hobbies and activities. That's a really important point Marley, that 614 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 1: you know sometimes people feel like, well, social activism, you know, 615 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:25,840 Speaker 1: civic change, political campaigns, everything that goes on somewhere else 616 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: is not really relevant to your life. But in fact, 617 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 1: whatever you care about, you can find a way of 618 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,799 Speaker 1: expressing that and helping other people to care as well. 619 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: I think that's part of what you have proved with 620 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,800 Speaker 1: your campaign. In fact, I need to congratulate you because 621 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 1: you're the host of a new show on Netflix. Yes, 622 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 1: I have a big deal called Bookmarks. Tell us about that. 623 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: Where did the idea come from? And who are some 624 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 1: of the cool interesting people that you've got to meet 625 00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,319 Speaker 1: through this. So it's been a crazy experience because I've 626 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,320 Speaker 1: always had opportunities and sometimes, you know, I get stuff 627 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 1: on my my emails are like, oh, we want you 628 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 1: to be an actor and a model, and I'm like, 629 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 1: I don't do those things. This is not what Riley 630 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: dies tres me yourself. But I like being a host 631 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 1: and I like bringing other ideas to the table, and 632 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,520 Speaker 1: that's kind of what I've had to do over the 633 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 1: past couple of years. So when it came for an 634 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,279 Speaker 1: opportunity to do something with Netflix, I knew it had 635 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,440 Speaker 1: to be surrounded by books. I knew it had to 636 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 1: be there. Either had to be about social change or books. 637 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 1: And a book show came onto our desk, and it 638 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,600 Speaker 1: was really important for me to focus on making sure 639 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 1: that we had black celebrities reading books about black kids 640 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: two families all over the world, and some of the 641 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,760 Speaker 1: books talk specifically about being anti racist and the civil 642 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,359 Speaker 1: rights movement, but other books are about loving who you 643 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: are and appreciating all of your imperfections. So um, they're 644 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,439 Speaker 1: experiences that can relate to everybody, and experiences that can 645 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,799 Speaker 1: inform you know, young kids and are three to eight 646 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 1: and with really fun pictures and animations and funky outfits 647 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,840 Speaker 1: and music. Another cool thing about it is that we 648 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:04,560 Speaker 1: also have the episodes available on YouTube, so that teachers 649 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 1: don't have to use their personal Netflix accounts to show 650 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 1: it to their students. So I pushed, you know, I 651 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: have an executive producer credit as well, and I wanted 652 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 1: to make sure that it was accessible to all the 653 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 1: kids out there. That is terrific. Well, you know, one 654 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 1: of the reasons that I wanted to talk with you 655 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:21,759 Speaker 1: is because we're all socially distancing. There's a lot of 656 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 1: remote learning going on, and I think not only I, 657 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: but our listeners would really like some book recommendations. So 658 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 1: what have you been reading these days and what would 659 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 1: you recommend to not only the adults listening, but younger 660 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,360 Speaker 1: people and even kids. So to all the parents listening. 661 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 1: The first picture book that I want to recommend, Grace 662 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 1: for President by Katie de Puccio, is such a good book. 663 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 1: It's about a young girl who's running for president in 664 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,719 Speaker 1: her class and can hopefully encourage, you know, talk about leadership, 665 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,239 Speaker 1: talk about education. So I love that book for young kids, 666 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,160 Speaker 1: and I know you're a grandma, so it's a great, 667 00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 1: great book. Well, I'm definitely getting that one. That's a 668 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 1: subject of very near and dear to uh to my heart. 669 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:09,480 Speaker 1: Give me some other recommendations for you know, older kids, teenagers, adults, 670 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,799 Speaker 1: and particularly in light of everything going on right now 671 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:17,360 Speaker 1: in the world. There's so many challenges from obviously the pandemic, 672 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 1: to the you know, the racial reckoning that we've got 673 00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 1: to finally as a country be willing to address and 674 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:28,239 Speaker 1: deal with, to the economic crisis that has you know, 675 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 1: ripped away a lot of people's jobs and livelihoods. Do 676 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,759 Speaker 1: you have any recommendations for books that you think are 677 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 1: particularly of this moment for different age readers. So I 678 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: think a book that for me is of this moment 679 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: because my mom she made me read it a couple 680 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 1: of months ago, and I think it helped me a 681 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 1: lot is the Autobiography of Malcolm X. It's not a 682 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:48,880 Speaker 1: black girl book, but it is a book about a 683 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:51,240 Speaker 1: black man, and it's as told to by Alex Haley, 684 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 1: and I think it does two things for me personally. 685 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,719 Speaker 1: It took a really close look at how lonely leadership 686 00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:59,319 Speaker 1: can be, and I think it took into consideration how 687 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,439 Speaker 1: some of us sometimes have to make tough decisions under 688 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 1: a lot of pressure and are judged heavily for who 689 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,440 Speaker 1: we are and how we deal with that and the 690 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 1: pains of sometimes and we don't even think about the 691 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 1: people that you know lead our world in small ways, 692 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,560 Speaker 1: you know, our church group leader, our best friends, the 693 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,440 Speaker 1: people that we look up to, um, how they suffer 694 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,000 Speaker 1: a lot and trying to give back to others. Um. 695 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:22,359 Speaker 1: And it also takes a look at how, in many 696 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:24,880 Speaker 1: eyes Malcolm X was seen as a radical, but you know, 697 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 1: the public perception versus reality, and who he was as 698 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,800 Speaker 1: a sensitive man who cared for his wife and was 699 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:34,359 Speaker 1: scared for his children and their protection. So I love 700 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,880 Speaker 1: that book because I think even though I couldn't relate 701 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 1: to Malcolm X's struggles, I felt like I understood the 702 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,400 Speaker 1: point of where leadership can really take a toll on 703 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,560 Speaker 1: the body and and make time feel like it's longer 704 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 1: than it is so for teenagers and adults and basically 705 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 1: all kids, but not little kids. Well, but look, I 706 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,800 Speaker 1: am a big reader of biography because I do find 707 00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:04,880 Speaker 1: a lot of lessons in how other people have faced challenges, setbacks, disappointments, 708 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,560 Speaker 1: all the you know, really difficult moments in life. You know, 709 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,959 Speaker 1: Nelson Mandela is somebody who I was privileged to meet 710 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:16,840 Speaker 1: and learn a great deal from his long walk to freedom. Uh, 711 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:19,240 Speaker 1: you know as a book that you know talks about 712 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:23,720 Speaker 1: how this little kid grew up to have the capacity, 713 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:28,919 Speaker 1: the strength, the principles to withstand, you know, all those 714 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,680 Speaker 1: years in jail and then to lead what was indeed 715 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:36,560 Speaker 1: a peaceful revolution. So there's lots of that, and I 716 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:38,960 Speaker 1: think you're right to say, look, what can we learn 717 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 1: about the struggles that individuals go through, black, white, every background, 718 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:49,040 Speaker 1: but particularly as you understood at a very young age, 719 00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,600 Speaker 1: you know, you can't be which you can't see, and 720 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:57,520 Speaker 1: so representation in the arts, in obviously books, but way 721 00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:01,080 Speaker 1: beyond books is so critical. You know. In your book, 722 00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:05,399 Speaker 1: in your introduction, which I really love you basically as 723 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:09,000 Speaker 1: an author, say what you need to read this book is, 724 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:13,720 Speaker 1: and then you list any dream worth following, a strong 725 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:18,480 Speaker 1: belief in something, preferably yourself and your community, a right 726 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:25,760 Speaker 1: sized ego, no room for divas when it comes to activism, patience, curiosity, 727 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,880 Speaker 1: people who love you, and trusted adults who want to 728 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:33,160 Speaker 1: help you succeed. I thought that was a pretty good 729 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:37,799 Speaker 1: summary for not just activism but for life, how did 730 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,879 Speaker 1: you pull all that together? So I have all these 731 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,200 Speaker 1: kind of checklists in my mind about things that I 732 00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:45,040 Speaker 1: need and you know, same thing you read out of 733 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,200 Speaker 1: the door, you're like while it keys phone for me. 734 00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,520 Speaker 1: My mom always tries to prepare me with you know, calm, confident, 735 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:52,239 Speaker 1: you know, you know what you're talking about. She never 736 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,000 Speaker 1: leaves me in a space where I'm unprepared, and I think, 737 00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:57,000 Speaker 1: you know, although I'm not a parent, I feel like 738 00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:58,680 Speaker 1: one thing I could do and I tried to do 739 00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:01,560 Speaker 1: throughout the whole book, is to equip kids with tools. 740 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:03,880 Speaker 1: I think my favorite one in there is is about 741 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,360 Speaker 1: the ego and the right side to ego, because I 742 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:08,600 Speaker 1: have to believe in myself, and you really do have 743 00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:10,920 Speaker 1: to you know, know what you're talking about and feel 744 00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:13,680 Speaker 1: like it's not not just an inflation of self. Rather 745 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,000 Speaker 1: you're filling yourself up with what you need to succeed. 746 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:18,840 Speaker 1: So I never give myself too much credit, and sometimes 747 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,360 Speaker 1: I don't give myself enough credit, but I try my 748 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,200 Speaker 1: best to always know that, especially in faces of someone 749 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:26,240 Speaker 1: where they you can tell that they're not as confident 750 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,080 Speaker 1: in what I'm saying, They're not necessarily as interested that 751 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,040 Speaker 1: I'm interested and I know what I want to say, 752 00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:34,320 Speaker 1: so it's enough for me to continue forward. Well, I 753 00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,640 Speaker 1: can only say amen to that, Marley, and I just 754 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 1: love the chance to talk to you again. And I 755 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:44,000 Speaker 1: want to not only encourage all of our listeners to 756 00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:48,120 Speaker 1: tune into Netflix or YouTube to see bookmarks and understand 757 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:50,920 Speaker 1: you know what you're trying to do, to give a 758 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:55,239 Speaker 1: platform for books that you know really are not just 759 00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:59,280 Speaker 1: representative or diverse, but good books, good books with great 760 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:03,600 Speaker 1: stories and great characters that can change lives. And I 761 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,960 Speaker 1: want to commend you for this book. Marley Das gets 762 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:09,399 Speaker 1: it done, and so can you. If you have young 763 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,759 Speaker 1: people in your life, please find out about the one 764 00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:17,560 Speaker 1: Thousand Black Girls books, and also about Marley's commitment, her 765 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:22,239 Speaker 1: mission to try to really lift up reading and the 766 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:26,320 Speaker 1: joy the experience in in life that you can get 767 00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:28,719 Speaker 1: through reading, that you don't have to necessarily go off 768 00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:31,640 Speaker 1: and do yourself, because you can live it through somebody else. 769 00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:33,840 Speaker 1: So I just can't thank you enough for talking to 770 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:40,719 Speaker 1: me today, Marley. Thank you so much. Well, thanks for 771 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:44,800 Speaker 1: joining me and listening to my conversations with these three 772 00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:49,920 Speaker 1: amazing writers. I hope that you're reading something that is 773 00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:54,400 Speaker 1: occupying your time and entertaining and informing you. I have 774 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:58,040 Speaker 1: a whole nightstand filled with books that I'm trying to 775 00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:02,520 Speaker 1: get through during the this winter when we're still all 776 00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:06,759 Speaker 1: inside trying to avoid the virus. I know that I've 777 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:11,200 Speaker 1: really read probably more this past eight months than I 778 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,800 Speaker 1: have in the prior eight years, because I had the time, 779 00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:19,280 Speaker 1: and I hope you two will have the time to read, 780 00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:23,120 Speaker 1: and if you've got little kids around, read to them. 781 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,920 Speaker 1: I've done a lot of reading with my grandchildren, kind 782 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:30,160 Speaker 1: of pulling every children's book off of my shelf. Because 783 00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,560 Speaker 1: it's gonna be a long winter. And this is the 784 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:37,000 Speaker 1: last episode of our first season of our podcast, You 785 00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:40,400 Speaker 1: and Me Both. We'll be back though. We're kicking off 786 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:45,360 Speaker 1: season two on February sixteen with more inspiring guests, no 787 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:51,239 Speaker 1: holds barred conversations, and yes, even a few surprises. Until then, 788 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:54,920 Speaker 1: I hope that you stay safe and healthy, catch up 789 00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:59,200 Speaker 1: on any of the podcast episodes you missed, and of course, 790 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:04,120 Speaker 1: you know, lose yourself in a book or two. You 791 00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:07,080 Speaker 1: and Me Both is brought to you by I Heart Radio. 792 00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:12,160 Speaker 1: We're produced by Julie Subran and Kathleen Russo with help 793 00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:17,600 Speaker 1: from Juma Aberdeen, Nikki e Tour, Oscar Flores, Brianna Johnson, 794 00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:23,560 Speaker 1: Nick Merrill, Lauren Peterson, Rob Russo, and Lona Velmorrow. Our 795 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:27,719 Speaker 1: engineer is Zach mcneiks and the original music is by 796 00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:31,000 Speaker 1: Forest Gray. If you like you and me both, share 797 00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:33,920 Speaker 1: it with your friends. Let them know they can subscribe 798 00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:36,640 Speaker 1: to you and me both on the I Heart Radio app, 799 00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:41,040 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if 800 00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:43,920 Speaker 1: you really want to help us out write a review. 801 00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,960 Speaker 1: That's a big help in bringing this podcast to new listeners, 802 00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:52,239 Speaker 1: and we would love to hear from you. Send your questions, comments, 803 00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,919 Speaker 1: or book recommendations to you and me both pod at 804 00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:59,600 Speaker 1: gmail dot com. I loved getting your emails and was 805 00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,719 Speaker 1: a sp actually moved by the stories that so many 806 00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:07,760 Speaker 1: listeners shared after our episode on mental health. Thanks for listening, 807 00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:09,080 Speaker 1: See you next year.