1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: M. 2 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 2: Billy really believes, and he'll go to his grave believing 3 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 2: that he did not get any inside information from anybody 4 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 2: from Tom Davis at Dean Foods. And certainly he did 5 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 2: not pass information inside information to Phil Mickelson in exchange 6 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:21,479 Speaker 2: to write off to make a million dollars plus to 7 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 2: pay off a gaming debt. That's just ludicrous in Bill's mind. 8 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 2: That got thoughts in my head. 9 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 3: Can't get him, joh And not the. 10 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 2: Thing what I'm thinking about. 11 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 3: Thoughts in my head can't get him, John, Not the 12 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 3: thing what I'm thinking about. 13 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 4: Hello, this is Alan Schipnook back for another Fire Drill podcast. 14 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 4: I am delighted to be joined by Armand Kataian, Emmy 15 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 4: Award winning Investigade reporter, best selling author, the co writer 16 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 4: of Billy Walter's Gambler, the book that everybody's been talking about, 17 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 4: including here at the Firepeit Collective, where we've had not 18 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 4: one but two excerpts that have moved the needle. As 19 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 4: they say, Arvin, thank you so much for doing this. 20 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 2: That's my pleasure. Alan, good to talk to you. 21 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:22,960 Speaker 4: So this has been one heck of a project. You know, 22 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 4: we talked early on, we had a little text Volley 23 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 4: when I heard you'd been attached to it, that was 24 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 4: years ago, of how would you describe your role as 25 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 4: a wrangler fact checker, and just having to Billy is 26 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 4: such a colorful guy. His stories are so outland just like, 27 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 4: how did you get this book done? It must have 28 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 4: been a challenge. 29 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 2: Well, it was probably the most unique journalism journalistic experience 30 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 2: I've ever had. It started in the summer of twenty 31 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 2: twenty when Billy and I talked on the phone a 32 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 2: couple of different times, and then I wrote a couple 33 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 2: of sample chapters based on our conversation and some work 34 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 2: that had previously been done on his life, and then 35 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 2: we got serious in September of twenty and it's been 36 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 2: basically a three year project. I probably interviewed him I 37 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 2: don't even know how many times, hundreds of times, and 38 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 2: then I interviewed sixty other people outside of Billie's life 39 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 2: or inside Billy's life, depending upon how you look at it. 40 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 2: And I did the math today before we talked, and 41 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 2: I think if I multiplied fifty weeks times fifty hours 42 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:37,079 Speaker 2: a week times three years, it's over seven thousand hours 43 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 2: that I've put into this book. In some way, shape 44 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 2: or form. So he is the most interesting. You know, 45 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 2: you've done a lot of interviews in your life, and 46 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,239 Speaker 2: I've done a lot, both in sports and in news. 47 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 2: Billy is the most interesting person I've ever met in 48 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 2: my entire life for a lot of different reasons. You know, 49 00:02:55,880 --> 00:03:02,959 Speaker 2: he's complicated, he's controversial, he's obsessive, he's a perfectionate. He 50 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 2: immersed himself amongst all the other stuff he has going 51 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 2: on in his life. I had done collaborations with Mike 52 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 2: Singletary Catfish Hunter and George Lopez, the actor comedian, and 53 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 2: I can tell you and those guys took what we 54 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,359 Speaker 2: did seriously. But all the hours that those three put 55 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 2: in together into those books, I think Billy probably doubled 56 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 2: it in the amount of time that he put into 57 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 2: our book together to make it the exact as close 58 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 2: as he could possibly be to the story that he 59 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 2: wanted to tell. 60 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 4: That's really cool. I mean, the average reader probably thinks 61 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 4: that a ghostwriter a co writer is like a stenographer. 62 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 4: They just tell you their story and you put it 63 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 4: in the book. But the level of fact checking and verifying, 64 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 4: because there's so many tall tales in Billy's life and 65 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 4: from my experience, he has a terrific recall trills, but. 66 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 2: The castodies go ahead. I'm sorry. 67 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 4: I just to say so, when Billy would tell you 68 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 4: something amazing, how would instead of just slamming it right 69 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 4: in the book? What was your methodology? 70 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 2: Then its interesting because he would tell me something. The 71 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 2: first thing I would do is like research that person. 72 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 2: You know, if he talked about Benny Binyon, you know, 73 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 2: who was this legendary gambling figure in Las Vegas who 74 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 2: started the Horseshoe and he's he's another one that straight 75 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 2: out of like a Larry McMurtry novel, that kind of 76 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 2: a guy. I just went back and looked at Benny 77 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 2: Binyon just to make sure that little things that Benny 78 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 2: was in Vegas at the time Billy was there, and 79 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 2: that you know that yes, he was the owner of 80 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 2: the Horseshoe, and what his backstory was. And then you know, 81 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 2: I talked to his son, Jack Benyon to learn more 82 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 2: about the family and Jack's relationship with Billy, Who's Jack 83 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 2: was the one who just last weekend inducted Billy into 84 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 2: the Sports Gambling Hall of Fame. So they've been close 85 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 2: for the better part of god. I don't know, fifty 86 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 2: years probably by this point in time. So it was rigorous, 87 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 2: you know, And I think that's one of the reasons 88 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 2: Billy wanted me on the book was my reputation as 89 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 2: a you know, as a reporter, being vigilant about the reporting, 90 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,720 Speaker 2: and the fact that I know my way around documents 91 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 2: and I know my way around court records, and I 92 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 2: understand the importance of having that as the backup for 93 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 2: the stories. You know, As I said when I wrote 94 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 2: that post for you guys at fire Pit, a lot 95 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 2: of people sometimes think that I'm just a funnel, right, 96 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 2: and that you're just a funnel. Somebody tells you something 97 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 2: and it automatically goes into the soup, and it doesn't. 98 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 2: It goes from Billy's mouth to my ear and then 99 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 2: to my journalism background. To make sure that whatever was 100 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 2: going in this book could be was factual and could 101 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 2: be defended and could be fact checked. And we I 102 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,840 Speaker 2: had a great researcher, Caroline Keenan, and she put in 103 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 2: hundreds of hours on her own in this book just 104 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 2: to make sure even the littlest things, dates and times 105 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 2: and sequences all lined up the right way. So but 106 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 2: you're right when some of this stuff is coming out 107 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 2: of Billy's mouth. I'm thinking, you got to be kidding me. 108 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 2: I mean, Jimmy Chagra, Billy Baxter, Bobby Baldwin, Jean McCarley, 109 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 2: all the gambling stories alone, the golf scambling stories were hysterical, 110 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 2: and you just want to make sure that you know. Then. 111 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 2: That's one of the reasons I went back. I talked 112 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:29,359 Speaker 2: to Gene, I talked to Bobby Baldwin, I talked to 113 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 2: Billy Baxter, I talked to Doyle Brunson, all those people, 114 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 2: Gene McCarley, just to make sure that the scenes as 115 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 2: Billy was setting them were the way that those other 116 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 2: people remembered him, and sometimes they were slightly different. So 117 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:44,119 Speaker 2: I would go back to Bill and I would say, Billy, 118 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 2: this is how Gene remembers it, and he'd go, you 119 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 2: know what, You're right, or he'd say, now this is 120 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 2: the way I think, I really I want to say it. 121 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 2: So it was this high wire act. But I got 122 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,720 Speaker 2: to tell you, you know, I'm really really happy with 123 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 2: what we produced. I think Billy's got an amazing story. 124 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 2: He's actually got three stories in one. As you know, 125 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 2: there's obviously the phil story, which is wild and interesting, 126 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 2: and not only the gambling, but they're fractured friendship. And 127 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,559 Speaker 2: then there's this whole secrets of sports gambling that Billy 128 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 2: wanted to get out for the first time in his life, 129 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 2: which is fifty pages in the book, and it's literally, 130 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 2: as we call it, it's a masterclass. And then to me, 131 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 2: the most interesting part of the book is just Billy's wild, 132 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 2: entertaining life story. I've I've never seen anything like it, 133 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 2: frankly in my life, and I won't go off on 134 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 2: it now, but we can talk a little bit about 135 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 2: it if you want to. But to me, it was like, 136 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 2: you know, rags to riches, rags to riches, rags to riches, 137 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 2: rags to riches, Horatio Alger. The fact that he's still 138 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 2: alive at this point in his life at seventy seven 139 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 2: is a little bit of a miracle. Of my favorite 140 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 2: lines in the book, and then I'll shut up, is 141 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 2: you know, he goes to Vegas when he thirty six 142 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 2: years old. He's a gambling addict and with a capital A, 143 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 2: and he's an alcoholic. And the one city that he 144 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 2: goes to, as we say, is the one that eats addicts. 145 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 2: For lunch and dreams for dinner. I mean, he goes 146 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 2: to Las Vegas, of all places to try to make 147 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 2: a new life. And what are the odds that somebody 148 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 2: with all of Billy's faults at that point in time 149 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 2: would not only survive, but he would thrive and he'd 150 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 2: become a multi multimillionaire in Vegas on as a golfer, 151 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 2: as a gambler, as a businessman. You're just like that 152 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 2: just doesn't happen. The odds are probably what, I don't 153 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,959 Speaker 2: even know, ten million to one at that point. 154 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 4: Billy could probably quote you the odds, but yeah, he could. Yeah, 155 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 4: it is an amazing American story, right, I mean it does. 156 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 4: It reads like fiction in places the arc of his life, 157 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 4: and I think that'll be one of the fun things 158 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 4: for people who do buy this book is, Yeah, there's 159 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:07,319 Speaker 4: two chapters about Phil Nicholson, and they're riveting if that's 160 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 4: your point of entry as a golf fan. But to 161 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 4: learn about this journey is it is really remarkable, and 162 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 4: I have. 163 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:16,959 Speaker 2: To give credit just an all change the subject. I 164 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 2: have to give credit where credit is due, and he's 165 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 2: acknowledged in the acknowledgment. Steve Saderfield who is a former 166 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 2: business editor of the Miami Herald was the managing editor 167 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 2: of the San Jose Mercury News. He really worked. I 168 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 2: wrote the template for the gambling chapters, but Dave really 169 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 2: spent I can't tell you how many hours with Billy 170 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 2: and some of Billy's brain trust. I mean the graphs 171 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 2: and the charts and all that stuff that's embedded into 172 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 2: that those two chapters. You know, I wrote the war 173 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 2: stories chapter where Billy's just reminiscing on bets that he's done. 174 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 2: But really the guts of those two chapters was Dave, 175 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 2: because I was overwhelmed with all the other stuff that 176 00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 2: I had to do because of the deadlines we were 177 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 2: dealing with. And I mean, Dave deserves all the credit 178 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 2: in the world. But to go back to the story. 179 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 2: For those that don't know, you know, Billy was born 180 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 2: into poverty in Mumfordville, Kentucky. His dad, who is gambling 181 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 2: in his blood. He dies at the age of forty one. 182 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 2: Billy is eighteen months old. His mom high tails it 183 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 2: to Louisville, leaves the family, leaves three young children in 184 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 2: the hands of relatives. Thank goodness, Billy's placed with his 185 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 2: grandmother who is. The book is dedicated to his grandmother 186 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 2: and to Susan Billy's wife of now going on forty 187 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 2: seven years. But at that point in time, you know, 188 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 2: he's it's just the odds of him being a successor 189 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 2: probably less than zero at that point. But his grandmother 190 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 2: teaches them all these you know, discipline and respect and 191 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 2: honor and hard work. Well, he's cutting lawns, and he's 192 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:57,319 Speaker 2: delivering papers and he's shining shoes. By the time he's 193 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 2: seven or eight years old, he's being babysat by his 194 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 2: uncle Harry at the Q and R Pool Hall. It 195 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 2: becomes a pool hustler at nine or ten years old. 196 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:10,199 Speaker 2: Who does that? Straight out of central casting. And then 197 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 2: you know, going forward, by the time he's seventeen, he's 198 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,119 Speaker 2: married with a child. The first girl he ever dates, 199 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 2: you know, gets pregnant. They have to get married. By 200 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 2: the time he's nineteen, he graduates from high school. By 201 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 2: the time he's nineteen, he's the most successful used car 202 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 2: salesman in the history of the state of Kentucky. Imagine 203 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 2: that he's making fifty six thousand dollars a year in 204 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty six, at the age of nineteen which is 205 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 2: the equivalent of about half a million dollars in today's dollars. 206 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 2: And he's spending every last dollar and then some gambling 207 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 2: and drinking and carousing, but not carousing so much, but 208 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 2: just out every night. And that's just you know, that's 209 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 2: the first fifth of Billy's life, and you feel like 210 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 2: this guy's lived like five or six lives. So that's 211 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 2: for me as a writer and a collaborator. I mean, 212 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 2: as you well know, some stories are kind of they 213 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 2: have one or two notes to them, and you're just 214 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 2: trying to, you know, write the music in a way 215 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 2: that it's going to be interesting for people. This was 216 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 2: like an orchestra. You know, there's a million different pieces 217 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 2: of music floating around here, and I'm just trying to 218 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 2: stitch them all together so they come out in a 219 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,719 Speaker 2: coherent fashion in the end. And to Billy's credit, as 220 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 2: I said, he really was hands on in this, to 221 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 2: the point a couple of times where I was just 222 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 2: literally banging my head on the desk in front of 223 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 2: me when he would tell me, well, let me tell 224 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 2: you the backstory, and I'm like, Bill, we don't have 225 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 2: any more room for backstories. There's no more backstories. Well, 226 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 2: let me just tell it to you anyways, So I 227 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 2: listened to me tell it to me. But we did 228 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 2: have some of those conversations, because you can't be with 229 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 2: somebody for three years and not you know, raise your 230 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 2: voice at times, you know. But it was in the 231 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 2: end we came out of other side in a really 232 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 2: good place. 233 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 4: I love it. That's great. Well, as you said, one 234 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 4: of the foundational parts of this book is the story 235 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 4: of his his friendship and his relationship with Phil Mickelson. 236 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 4: And and the first excerpt we ran last week, it 237 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 4: really it's sort of the beginning of their their friendship 238 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 4: and uh, the success and some of the ups and 239 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 4: downs I had as betting partners and as friends, and 240 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 4: Billy as as Phil's mentor, and and then this new 241 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:33,680 Speaker 4: excerpt kind of charts the disillusion of that relationship. And 242 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 4: of course it's it centers around this insider trading case 243 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 4: that you know, Phil was adjacent to, and Billy's contention 244 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 4: is that if Phil had testified that he got no 245 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,839 Speaker 4: insider tips from from Billy, that would have gone a 246 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 4: long way towards exonerating him in a court of law. 247 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,199 Speaker 4: Phil refused to testify, you know, I was going to 248 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 4: invoke his Fifth Amendment rights and that was that was 249 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 4: the end of their their friendship. And you know, Billy 250 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 4: went to jail and Phil skated, which is one of 251 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 4: the themes of his of his life and his golf careers. 252 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,079 Speaker 4: He just always kind of googles out of these gems. 253 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 2: You know that better than most, that's for sure. 254 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's remarkable, and it's like the through line in 255 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 4: the Phil Nicholson story. 256 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: Is, you know, it's always always there when you're dealing 257 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: with I mean, really, if I had two, you know, 258 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:30,119 Speaker 1: foundational pillars of the book that I was most concerned 259 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: and focused on, where one obviously the Phil story, Billy's relationship, the. 260 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 2: Staggering numbers that Phil was betting that you guys at 261 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 2: fire Pit had in that first excerpt, which to me 262 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 2: are mind modeling in a lot of ways, but more 263 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 2: importantly that when you're dealing with the Southern District of 264 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 2: New York, the sovereign District is as it's known in 265 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 2: pre Bahara, and the FBI and the Justice Department and 266 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 2: the SEC and all the major the federal agencies, you 267 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 2: just there is just a wire. You're so high up 268 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 2: on that wire and so we were very, very careful. 269 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 2: We decided rather early on to just stick with the 270 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 2: facts that were defensible, so court documents. You know, I 271 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 2: think one of the most interesting, fascinating parts of this 272 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 2: book is, you know, Billy really believes, and he'll go 273 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 2: to his grave believing that he did not get any 274 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 2: inside information from anybody from Tom Davis at Dean Foods. 275 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 2: And certainly he did not pass information inside information to 276 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 2: Phil Mickelson in exchange to write off to make a 277 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 2: million dollars plus to pay off a gaming debt. That's 278 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 2: just ludicrous in Bill's mind. But more interestingly, when you 279 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 2: get into the massinations of what the US government did, 280 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 2: and I think it's important to remember that when the 281 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 2: Computer Group went on trial in nineteen ninety and Bill 282 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 2: was a part of the Computer Group, it was a 283 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 2: major FBI investigation, and basically the defense kicked the FBI's 284 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 2: ass in that case. The jury came back there were 285 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty some counts sixty something if I'm 286 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 2: remember right, were not guilty. The other ones were dropped. 287 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 2: It was a complete whitewash of the case. They were 288 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 2: just annihilated the federal government. That was the beginning of 289 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 2: a twenty seven year hunt for Billy Walters, and I 290 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 2: think it's fair to say that. And then when it 291 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 2: got into the Southern District of New York, what the 292 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 2: government did, the links that the government went to which 293 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 2: are documented in the book, and the government admits to 294 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 2: in this exparty letter that Prey Bahara sent to the judge. 295 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 2: They admitted that the FBI agent, the senior FBI agent 296 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 2: in charge of the White Crimes Division in the New 297 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 2: York Office, repeatedly and I believe the number was thirteen 298 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 2: different times, but certainly repeatedly leaked secret grand jury testimony 299 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:08,679 Speaker 2: to reporters for the Wall Street Journal in the New 300 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 2: York Times in order to set up the articles that 301 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 2: set up Billy's indictment and the links that the government 302 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 2: went to, and I won't go into it a nauseum here, 303 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 2: but to me that was one of the most powerful 304 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 2: and interesting parts of the book is that's how bad 305 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 2: the government wanted Billy Walters. They wanted to take that 306 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 2: trophy and put it on the wall for any number 307 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 2: of reasons. And the links that they go to, to me, 308 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 2: is a fascinating part of the book. And then when 309 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 2: you add fill into the mix on two occasions, and 310 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 2: I saw the reports. Phil told the FBI flat out 311 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 2: that Billy Walters never provided him any material non public 312 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 2: information and sessionally essentially inside information. Billy believes till he 313 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,080 Speaker 2: goes to his grave that if Phil had testified or 314 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 2: at least made a public statement, given his celebrity and 315 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 2: the power of his personality, that it would turn the 316 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 2: tide in the case. That's his story, and believe me, 317 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 2: he's sticking to it, and he will stick to it 318 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 2: till the end of his days. And I don't fault 319 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 2: him for it for one second, because I think what 320 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 2: the government did was outrageous in order to get Bill 321 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 2: the rules, I mean, to leak secret grand jury testimony 322 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:33,400 Speaker 2: is basically a cardinal sin of law enforcement. And so 323 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 2: all of that mixed in, and then you have Phil 324 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 2: in the middle of this money wandering investigation, and then 325 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 2: his relationships with a guy named Greg Silvera, and what 326 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 2: Silvera did, and how that all mixes into it. It's 327 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 2: got all these different elements of like a Martin Scorsese film, 328 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 2: you know, it has a real richness to it. And 329 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 2: when you put Bill in the middle of it, hopefully 330 00:18:57,359 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 2: the reader will go, oh my god, I can't believe 331 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 2: what was happening in Bill's life at that period of time. 332 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 2: And then, just to top it off, you know, he's 333 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:08,880 Speaker 2: seventy one years old when he gets convicted on these 334 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 2: ten counts of insider trading. To me, the thought of 335 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 2: going to prison, I'm seventy years old. The thought of 336 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,640 Speaker 2: me going to prison at seventy years old, seventy one 337 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 2: years old into Pensacola. I found those to be the 338 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 2: most interesting and fun chapters to write because they were 339 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 2: so rich with the characters and the scene and the surroundings, 340 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 2: and so you know, you think the last half of 341 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 2: somebody's life would be a little bit boring. Well not 342 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 2: with Billy Waltzers, and you know that's for sure. 343 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 3: Yeah. 344 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 4: And one of the things you take away from reading 345 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 4: this latest excerpt is Phil's tone deafness. So Billy's been convicted, 346 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 4: He's wearing an electronic anklet, He's going to be going 347 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:59,959 Speaker 4: to the pokey suit. Phil drops by. He has to settle, 348 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 4: you know, he owes Billy a lot of money. But 349 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 4: tell the listeners what happens to them, because this is 350 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 4: the ultimate faceball. 351 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 2: I gotta tell you. We went back and forth a 352 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 2: few times, and I guess I'm telling some state secrets here. 353 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 2: But I wanted to open the book with that scene 354 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 2: because it's so you know, coming from SI and God 355 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 2: knows you great writer. You're looking for these moments that 356 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 2: really will draw the reader in and go, Holy moly, 357 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 2: this is interesting, this is different. So it is Billy 358 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 2: has just been convicted on these ten counts. He's wearing 359 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 2: an ankle bracelet. I've been to the house. It was 360 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 2: in Carlsbad. Billy now lives in a different place in 361 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 2: San Diego and Rancho Santa Fe. But it's a panoramic 362 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 2: view of the Pacific Ocean and there's surfers out there, 363 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,360 Speaker 2: and it's a sparkly, gorgeous San Diego day. And here 364 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 2: Phil pulls up and Billy thinks it's going to be 365 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 2: a mea culpa. It's going to be Bill. I'm so 366 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 2: sorry that I didn't do what I had promised that 367 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 2: I would do, which was to make a public statement. Instead, 368 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 2: it's Phil in film mode, you know, thinking about himself. 369 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 2: Oh I lost my k PMG, my Exxon mobile sponsorship. 370 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 2: You love this because I know in your book you 371 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,479 Speaker 2: talked about his private plane and how important that was 372 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 2: to Phil, whether depreciation on my private plane, and Billy 373 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 2: in his mind, I'm like, Billy, what are you thinking? 374 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:31,160 Speaker 2: And he's like, I can't believe what I'm hearing. I'm thinking, 375 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,120 Speaker 2: this guy's going to apologize to me, and lo and behold, 376 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 2: he's given me this sob story about what's going on 377 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 2: in his life. And that's what that line where he goes, 378 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 2: if I could, you know, my relationship with him, if 379 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 2: I could pay X amount of dollars to get out 380 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 2: of this relationship with this guy, I would do it 381 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 2: right now. And you know, you juxtaposed that against Phil's, 382 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 2: as you well know, his public persona, which is so 383 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 2: powerful and it's so captivating in so many ways. But 384 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 2: when you're in those intimate moments with him, as Bill was, 385 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 2: there's a different side of Phil. And then he tops 386 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 2: it off by saying, Hey, do you want to play 387 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:16,639 Speaker 2: some golf, which is just absolutely tone deaf to the 388 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,439 Speaker 2: situation in itself. And so I always found that to 389 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 2: be to me so captivating and so but I like 390 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 2: the way the book opens now too, when he's you know, 391 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 2: the first eighties in federal prison in Pensacola. So there 392 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 2: was an embarrassment of riches, so to speak, when you're 393 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 2: trying to pick and choose and we both I know 394 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 2: in your book. In our book, we had a tremendous editor, 395 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 2: Jofie Ferrari Adler, who's just one of the best editors 396 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 2: in the business, and he, you know, he was so 397 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 2: captivated by what we were doing. I didn't have the 398 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 2: heart to tell him at the time, you know, I 399 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,159 Speaker 2: really wanted to open up with this other thing, because 400 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,880 Speaker 2: he just was so taken with the book. I was like, Okay, 401 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,360 Speaker 2: I'll just shut up here and gonna you know, I'm 402 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 2: not going to make any ways. 403 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 4: It's a podcaster for Arman. Now you can tell all 404 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 4: your secrets. You yourself. 405 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 2: Unburdened myself. 406 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:16,479 Speaker 4: Yeah, no, it is. It is amazing. Like Billy Walters 407 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 4: is about to go to jail and he's so bitter 408 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:20,879 Speaker 4: at Phil. It feels like, hey, you want to go 409 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 4: play some golf like that to me is it's wild. 410 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 2: It's just and the fact that they didn't talk to 411 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 2: each other, I mean Billy when Billy was in prison 412 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 2: and for those thirty one months, according to that Bop, 413 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 2: he had more visitors in prison than anybody in the 414 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 2: history of the Bureau of Prisons. I mean, everybody from 415 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,880 Speaker 2: Bernard Carrick, you know, former police commissioner in New York, 416 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:55,360 Speaker 2: to Jim Colbert came down, you know, the legendary Golfer, 417 00:23:56,119 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 2: certainly senior tour, all these people that came down. Phil 418 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 2: never once in the entire five years from the time 419 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 2: that Billy was convicted. And then the excerpt ends with 420 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,680 Speaker 2: another big scene at Rancho Santa Fe country Club where 421 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 2: they're both members, where they see each other for the 422 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 2: really and talk for the first time in five years. 423 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 2: And you know, Phil starts in with the apologies and 424 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 2: starts to make a nothing more than an excuse for 425 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 2: why he didn't testify and didn't speak out publicly, and Billy, 426 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 2: in pure Billy Walter's fashion, just puts a stop to it, 427 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 2: you know, and says, you know, cut the bullshit. You know, 428 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,679 Speaker 2: I know I know what you did, and I know 429 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 2: why he did it, but don't don't try to sell 430 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 2: me a story that you know that was something else, 431 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 2: because it wasn't. So, you know, I think I think 432 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 2: Billy is he's really torn. He had a great respect 433 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 2: for Phil, certainly as a golfer, and I think he 434 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 2: acted as a mentor for Phil, understanding Phil's self admitted 435 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 2: addiction to gambling for a long period of time, and 436 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 2: Billy's was a counselor to him. And I think he 437 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:07,919 Speaker 2: saw him as like a you know, a son in 438 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 2: a lot of ways. And I think how that relationship fractures, 439 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 2: and in the way that you have in this new 440 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 2: excerpt and a little bit more in the book, really 441 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 2: is it's been very hurtful to Bill because he does 442 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,679 Speaker 2: pour his heart and soul into his relationships with people. 443 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 2: And I think how it ended with Phil was probably 444 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 2: as painful as anything he's experienced, other than the loss 445 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 2: of his daughter, Tanya, who commits suicide while Billy's in prison, 446 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 2: which is a whole other story. 447 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, that's that's that's heavy to think about, to 448 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 4: be so far away and so powerless. And I mean 449 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 4: with with Phil, you understand, like, Okay, if he testifies 450 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 4: in the trial, he opened himself up to some some jeopardy. Right, 451 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 4: anytime you get on the stands, things could go sideway. 452 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 4: But I hadn't really thought about it until reading this 453 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 4: excerpt again, is that he could have just put out 454 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 4: a public statement, which he would have full control over 455 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 4: and would have laid out the facts in a way 456 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 4: that would have been helpful to Billy and probably would 457 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 4: have been helpful to Phil. I mean, because I think 458 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 4: the perception is that you know, Fiel did something wrong 459 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 4: and he skated, and if you had said publicly, you know, 460 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 4: I never had an inside information, yeah, it would have 461 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 4: held both of them. 462 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,439 Speaker 2: I think I think it would have been And you know, 463 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 2: you talk about public statements at the memorial. Shortly after 464 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,439 Speaker 2: Billy's convicted, Phil has a press conference, I think it 465 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 2: was on June first, twenty seventeen, and he's asked about 466 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,120 Speaker 2: what happened in New York with Billy, and Phil makes 467 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:53,679 Speaker 2: a statement, you know, have to learn how to do 468 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,160 Speaker 2: a better job of the people that I associate with. 469 00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 2: And it was sort of a character assass nation of 470 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 2: Bill when he didn't have to say anything that way, 471 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:08,159 Speaker 2: but he took advantage of a situation to make himself 472 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 2: look better at Bill's expense. And that was another thing 473 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,400 Speaker 2: that Bill pointed out ensure as you know, sure a shit. 474 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 2: I looked it up and I got the exact wording 475 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 2: from the press conference, and we put it in the book. 476 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,239 Speaker 2: And it says something, you know, it says something. And 477 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,919 Speaker 2: I think that Billy is a man of his word. 478 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 2: And that's the one of the things I really like 479 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,120 Speaker 2: about Bill is is that when he says something, he 480 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,879 Speaker 2: lives up to it. And you know, going back to 481 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 2: what happened to him in prison, some of the most 482 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 2: powerful scenes when Billy is in Pennsylcola is when he 483 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 2: becomes a mentor to a lot of the inmates in 484 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,879 Speaker 2: there who were just born on the wrong side of 485 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 2: the street and end up in prison on drug charges 486 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 2: or most of them were drug charges. And there's a guy, 487 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 2: Little Joe Ramirez who it's such a powerful scene. And 488 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,439 Speaker 2: I talked to Little Joe. I called him up and 489 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 2: I said, tell me about what happened. You know, he 490 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 2: had a daughter that he never saw. His girlfriend was 491 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 2: pregnant when he went on drug charges. I think it 492 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 2: was twenty seven years he got and he had never 493 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 2: even met his daughter, Jordan Elisa, who was seventeen years 494 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,160 Speaker 2: old when Billy found out about it, and Billy made 495 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,879 Speaker 2: some calls and had some things done, and he brought 496 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 2: the mother and Jordan Elisa to the visitor center at 497 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 2: FPC Federal prison Camp Pensacola on a Friday night for 498 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 2: so little Joe could see his daughter for the first time. 499 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 2: Imagine that scene that there wasn't a dry eye in 500 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 2: the house when they were hugging each other, and Billy 501 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 2: didn't have to do that. And so for those that 502 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:51,719 Speaker 2: have this one sided opinion, oh, he's just a gambler, 503 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 2: He's just a guy that got indicted and convicted, he's 504 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 2: a felon. Billy's the first to admit he's still a felon. 505 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 2: He's he'll fight it till the days die, but he dies, 506 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 2: but he's he understands that that's the tag on him now. 507 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 2: But I think what this book does beautifully in many ways, 508 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 2: and it's not just because of me, certainly, it's because 509 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 2: of Bill and how he sees life. It's really inspirational 510 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 2: a lot of ways. And one of the things that's 511 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 2: been most gratifying to me is that people that have 512 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 2: read this book that don't care one wit about sports, 513 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 2: gambling or golf or sports or anything like that, they've 514 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 2: really been taken. They've been taken with Billy's life story 515 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,479 Speaker 2: and how inspiring it is. And that to me, you know, 516 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 2: did I really want to write another sports book. No, 517 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 2: this isn't a sports book. It's got sports in it, 518 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 2: but this is a one of a kind, an American original. 519 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 2: Some have called him an American outlaw. But it's an 520 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 2: inspiring story about a one of a kind kind of 521 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 2: a person. And to me, as a writer, when you're 522 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 2: drawn to something like that, you're like, Okay, just don't 523 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 2: don't screw this one up, because you know you want 524 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 2: to give You want to give the guy that journalistically 525 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 2: and literary wise and writing and storytelling, you know what 526 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 2: he deserves. And I think we did. 527 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 4: Oh definitely, Yeah, kudos to you. It is a sensational read. 528 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 4: And I've been on a couple of projects where I 529 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 4: was the co writer and uh, you're you're sort of 530 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 4: an unsung part of the process. The other the other 531 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 4: person has their name on the book, understands it. But 532 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 4: there's there is there is a magic to it and 533 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 4: how you present the material, how you sift through it, 534 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 4: how you organize the chapters, and it is an interesting challenge. 535 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 4: And so I I was just going to bring him up. Yeah, yeah, I. 536 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 2: Mean I read the New Yorker piece that he wrote 537 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 2: about being the collaborative with Andre and Phil Knight and 538 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 2: Prince Harry. I mean, that's like the holy trinity of 539 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 2: you know, people that you know are very powerful and 540 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 2: very well known. And it was comforting to me to 541 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 2: really understand what Jr. Was going through because he's considered 542 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 2: right now, I think, to be the you know, the 543 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 2: top of the mountain in the collaboration business, and he's done. 544 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 2: I mean, I read open, I read Phil's book, and 545 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 2: I read parts of Prince Harry, and you can see 546 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 2: where he's just immersed himself in their lives and the 547 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 2: questions that he asked in order to get to the 548 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 2: level of storytelling and reporting. And sometimes those are uncomfortable questions. 549 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 2: Why did you do this? How did you feel about 550 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 2: the fact, you know that you that you weren't a 551 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 2: great father. You know, I had those conversations with Bill 552 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 2: early on about you know, your priorities were you you 553 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 2: felt like if you were contributing financially, that was being 554 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 2: a good father. Not understanding that time, not money, was 555 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 2: the most important thing that you can provide to your 556 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 2: kids and build to his credit went there. You know, 557 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 2: it took some time, but he eventually got to the 558 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 2: point where he was really open about his faults in 559 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 2: that part of his life. And that's what you know, 560 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 2: you've done and I've done in other books, and it's 561 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 2: there's an art form here. You know. It's not just 562 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 2: turn on the faucet, you know, grab the water and 563 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 2: throw it into the pot and watch it boil. There's 564 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 2: a lot of work that goes into it to get 565 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 2: to a level where you're writing like you feel like 566 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 2: you're inside that person's head and you're writing in their voice. 567 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 2: It's one of the reasons I transcribed every single word 568 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 2: of this book, every tape. No one else had touched it, 569 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 2: because I wanted to hear Billy's voice in my head 570 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 2: as much as possible. And I wanted to make sure, 571 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 2: because I knew we were on a high wire in 572 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 2: certain places, that there were no mistakes in the transcription. 573 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 2: If push came to shove, I could say, I transcribed 574 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 2: it in those are my you know, those are my notes, 575 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 2: not someone else's notes. So it's a you know, it's 576 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 2: it's different than writing what we did Jeff and I 577 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 2: did Benedict and I did with Tiger, and what I 578 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 2: did with Jeff in the system. But it's a different 579 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 2: kind of you're using different muscles, and I like that 580 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 2: now to be able to go back and forth between 581 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 2: you know, a really hardcore investigative nonfiction book and trying 582 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 2: to bring somebody like Billy's life. 583 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 4: You know, to life well and for people who don't 584 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 4: do this for a living, if you have an hour 585 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 4: long interview to transcribe that, it takes four hours, you know, 586 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 4: and so something like that. So when you think about it, thus. 587 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 2: My seven thousand hours. 588 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 4: You know, I was going to say how. 589 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 2: Much I did, because for every hour of writing, there's 590 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 2: god knows, you know what it's like. And I'm working 591 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 2: on another book right now in college football, and I'm 592 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 2: I'm like staring at my tape recorder like he's my 593 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 2: worst friend. You know, I don't want to see you again. 594 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 2: You know, if I got to deal with today, kill myself. 595 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's an abusive relationship, that relationship. Yes, he gives 596 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 4: you a little, but the recorder gives you a little, 597 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 4: but it takes a lot of You may not even 598 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 4: know this that JR. Moringer was supposed to be the 599 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 4: co writer on Tiger Woods's autobiography. Did you ever hear that? 600 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 4: I know, and I heard it would have been it 601 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 4: would have been. It would have been an epic, but 602 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 4: Tiger wouldn't go there, and the whole project fell apart. 603 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 2: That would just because I knew I had heard JR. 604 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 2: Was attached, and I was like, oh, this is going 605 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 2: to be interesting because you and I both know the 606 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,359 Speaker 2: Tiger Woods that we know. When you start to get 607 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 2: down to the real psychological profile, I don't know, you know, 608 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 2: I can just see him go, well, what do you want? 609 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 2: I'm not going to talk about that. You know, what 610 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,040 Speaker 2: would you asking me that for? And yeah, you know 611 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,800 Speaker 2: you get to those answers, you're just like, I don't think. 612 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 4: So, Yeah, No, that's that That book is the Tigers 613 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 4: had a deal to write his life story for a 614 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:21,280 Speaker 4: decade and if not longer, But it's just languishing because 615 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,359 Speaker 4: he doesn't want to open himself up to that kind 616 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:28,359 Speaker 4: of self analysis, that kind of scrutiny, that kind of vulnerability, 617 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 4: which is what it takes if you're really gonna well 618 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 4: to tell your story authentically. 619 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, at this point, if I was Tiger, I would say, well, 620 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 2: I don't need the ten million dollars they're going to 621 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,479 Speaker 2: pay me to to do it. You know, why would 622 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,359 Speaker 2: I want to put myself through this. And you know, 623 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 2: as I said, you and I both know he's not. 624 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 2: He's never been big on self reflection, you know, and 625 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 2: more so now I think than ever, but not not 626 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 2: to the level that certainly Billy was and other people 627 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 2: that I you know, I work with George Lopez as 628 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,880 Speaker 2: was you know, a life so sad it had to 629 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,880 Speaker 2: be funny kind of a thing. He talked a lot about, 630 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:10,399 Speaker 2: you know, his upbringing and stuff and so, and that's 631 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,719 Speaker 2: I think is a really was. It was one of 632 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,720 Speaker 2: the things in the beginning with Bill I was really 633 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 2: conscious of is because I had read some previous work 634 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 2: that had been done by Jack Shehan on a manuscript 635 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 2: that really ended in two thousand and six, and so 636 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 2: by the time I picked it up in twenty twenty, 637 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 2: it was fourteen years old. But it had a lot 638 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 2: of good information in it because some of the people 639 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,239 Speaker 2: that Jack had interviewed had now passed away. So there 640 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 2: were scenes in there that were great scenes that I 641 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 2: could use in the book. But I had to go 642 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:51,759 Speaker 2: back to Bill to see how willing he was to 643 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 2: you know, dig back into that part of his life. 644 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,319 Speaker 2: And when I found out that he was willing and 645 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 2: more important. He was willing to spend the time necessary. 646 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:08,720 Speaker 2: I mean a couple things twice, all both times in California, 647 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:14,760 Speaker 2: at Billy's homes. We went over every single word, every 648 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,239 Speaker 2: single line in the book, and he was like, look 649 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 2: at it, and he go, okay, this page is good. 650 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 2: And now, okay, this page is good. And then he'd 651 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 2: stop and he'd go, no, this isn't right, and the 652 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,400 Speaker 2: voice isn't right or the scene isn't right. And I mean, 653 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,239 Speaker 2: if I showed you my laptop on some of those 654 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 2: chapters were probably written and rewritten twenty times, you know, 655 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:44,719 Speaker 2: to get to the point where I felt, and Bill 656 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 2: more importantly, Bill felt that it was reflective of that 657 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 2: period of his life. I mean, the phil stuff went through. 658 00:37:53,760 --> 00:38:00,480 Speaker 2: I can't tell you how many revisions and just weeks 659 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:05,240 Speaker 2: to make it sharper and clearer and get the clutter 660 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 2: out and remove, you know, to a certain degree, any 661 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 2: kind of score settling that we didn't want to be involved. 662 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,160 Speaker 2: When we just kept going. Bill, to his credit, kept going, 663 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 2: let's stick to the facts. Let's stick to the facts. 664 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 2: And that was music to my ears because those facts 665 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 2: are defensible, and we didn't want to get into a 666 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 2: name calling thing. I didn't find it to be productive. 667 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,960 Speaker 2: And Jophie, our editor, also, to his credit, in a 668 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 2: few places where it got a little overdone, it got 669 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,360 Speaker 2: edited out. And I think that's why the book reads 670 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,600 Speaker 2: the way it reads is because it went through a 671 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,480 Speaker 2: real process to get to the point where I just 672 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,200 Speaker 2: kept saying to Bill, Bill, we want people to turn pages. 673 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 2: We're in the page turning business. You know, your life 674 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,719 Speaker 2: is so powerful and so big and so interesting. Let's 675 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,880 Speaker 2: not bog down in places where you know, we mentioned 676 00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 2: somebody's name one time, and then we have to tell 677 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 2: a backstory, and somebody's going, why why am I reading this? 678 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 2: This isn't important to me. So to his credit, into 679 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:08,960 Speaker 2: I think the group of people that were involved in 680 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,719 Speaker 2: this project, that was our number one focus was to 681 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:14,879 Speaker 2: make the book as fast and as clean and as 682 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 2: interesting as we possibly could. And you know, when someone 683 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:19,920 Speaker 2: like you Ellen, who knows how to tell a story, 684 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,360 Speaker 2: really likes it, that means a lot to us. Because 685 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:26,839 Speaker 2: you know, I mean Ian O'Connor, who I'm good friends with, 686 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,800 Speaker 2: you know, well, he read it, he really liked it. It's 687 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:35,600 Speaker 2: people that I really respect in the business. You know, 688 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:37,840 Speaker 2: when they say good things about something that means a 689 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,239 Speaker 2: lot to me because it's a you know, the last 690 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:41,719 Speaker 2: thing you want to do is spend three years of 691 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 2: your life and end up, you know, people going well, 692 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:44,879 Speaker 2: that wasn't worth it. 693 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, that I relate to that. But it is interesting 694 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,440 Speaker 4: because the field defenders, and there's still a lot of 695 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:56,919 Speaker 4: them out there on social media and elsewhere, have said 696 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:01,800 Speaker 4: well this. They've been some in some vein of criticism 697 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:04,880 Speaker 4: to the material that's come out has been to dismiss it, 698 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 4: say Billy's a felon and or he's just he just 699 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:12,160 Speaker 4: has a score to settle. And I was very impressed 700 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 4: by how measured the tone was when he was talking 701 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:19,399 Speaker 4: about Phil, and it was he didn't really condemn him. 702 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 4: He didn't take any shots. As he says in the book, 703 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:25,120 Speaker 4: you know, I know a lot about Phil's personal life. 704 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,680 Speaker 4: I'm not going to go there. It's there was not 705 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,520 Speaker 4: even that. It didn't come through his bitterness in those chapters. 706 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:36,000 Speaker 4: It was more like, yeah, I mean, the tone was, 707 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 4: this was my experience. 708 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 2: You know, what's the side of doing that, of getting 709 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 2: personal in a way that it doesn't do anybody any good. 710 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:52,600 Speaker 2: And I think there were times and that Bill wanted 711 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,399 Speaker 2: to get personal, and there were things in the book 712 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,319 Speaker 2: that we took out because we felt like it was 713 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 2: a little bit too score set, and I think, but 714 00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:04,520 Speaker 2: that's just part of that process. You're just trying to 715 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 2: find an equilibrium where like you say, it was measured 716 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:11,279 Speaker 2: and it wasn't didn't sound bitter in it. You know. 717 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:15,759 Speaker 2: The beauty of Bill's relationship with Phil is so much 718 00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:19,960 Speaker 2: of it is documented, and the scenes and where they're talking. 719 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,759 Speaker 2: The one scene in the book where I don't think 720 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:27,560 Speaker 2: it's in the excerpt, but you know, they there's another 721 00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:31,440 Speaker 2: meeting they have and the first thing Phil tells Billy 722 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,200 Speaker 2: to do is to put away a cell phone, give 723 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:36,120 Speaker 2: me your cell phone and leave it because they're going 724 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,760 Speaker 2: to go in the locker room and talk. And Phil's 725 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 2: concerned about some things, and Billy's thinking, this is an 726 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:44,880 Speaker 2: episode out of the Sopranos, right, He's like, what the 727 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,319 Speaker 2: hell's going on here? But it was done in a 728 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:52,840 Speaker 2: way where you know, it's that's what happened. That was 729 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,520 Speaker 2: the moment. You don't have to say anything else because 730 00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,359 Speaker 2: it kind of speaks for itself. And look, there's going 731 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:03,560 Speaker 2: to be criticis God knows, you know, the way social 732 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,279 Speaker 2: media is these days, we were aware of it. 733 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:07,879 Speaker 1: I just. 734 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:11,239 Speaker 2: One of the reasons I wrote that blog post for 735 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,920 Speaker 2: you was is I wanted to put a stop to 736 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:20,440 Speaker 2: the misconstruction of what Bill was saying, you know, particularly 737 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:24,839 Speaker 2: involving the Ryder Cup, which was the big blockbuster sort 738 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:29,040 Speaker 2: of news that came out early on you know, and 739 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:32,160 Speaker 2: Phil's non denial denial I never bet on the Ryder Cup. Well, 740 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:34,040 Speaker 2: Billy never said you bet on the Ryder Cup. What 741 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,719 Speaker 2: he said was you called him up in September of 742 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:41,440 Speaker 2: twenty twelve and wanted to bet four hundred thousand dollars 743 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:45,080 Speaker 2: on the American team to win against the Europeans at Madonna, 744 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,160 Speaker 2: and Bill told him basically, you're out of your mind. 745 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:51,160 Speaker 2: I'm not going to get within a million miles of 746 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,680 Speaker 2: anything like that. But some of the and they were prominent, 747 00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,719 Speaker 2: they were prominent national news sources that just got that 748 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,560 Speaker 2: were wrong, and we had to I didn't do it, 749 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,520 Speaker 2: but people that represent Bill on the PR side, they 750 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,439 Speaker 2: had to call up three major publications ago you didn't 751 00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:11,439 Speaker 2: get this right, you need to change it, and they did, 752 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:13,840 Speaker 2: to their credit, they changed it because it was a 753 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,560 Speaker 2: nuance and you know, sometimes people don't don't do nuance 754 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:21,319 Speaker 2: all that well. But when you're making these kinds of 755 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:25,279 Speaker 2: allegations that are you know, about as high up on 756 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:28,880 Speaker 2: the wire as I want to go, the reporting that 757 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,759 Speaker 2: comes out of those allegations has to be correct or 758 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:35,080 Speaker 2: it's going to get corrected. And people can say whatever 759 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,799 Speaker 2: they want, Billy's a felon, always out to do this, 760 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,319 Speaker 2: that or the other thing. That's their prerogative. But I'm 761 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,319 Speaker 2: going to and I think it's fair to say, we're 762 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:46,480 Speaker 2: going to stand on what's in the book and and 763 00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:48,520 Speaker 2: we're going to leave it at that, and if push 764 00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:50,560 Speaker 2: comes to shove, as I said when I wrote for 765 00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:54,120 Speaker 2: you guys, my reporting standard has always been can we 766 00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:58,680 Speaker 2: defend this in a court of law? And absolutely every word, 767 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:04,239 Speaker 2: every number, every anecdote. You know, we're all prepared to 768 00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,200 Speaker 2: go to the man if necessary, which I don't think 769 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,760 Speaker 2: we will because as you well know, as you well noted, 770 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,720 Speaker 2: Phil denied the Ryder Cup. He didn't say boohoo about 771 00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:19,360 Speaker 2: the numbers and those numbers were astonishing, and he didn't 772 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:23,400 Speaker 2: draw a line through any of that stuff, which is 773 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:27,920 Speaker 2: a credit to Phil in a lot of ways, because 774 00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:30,600 Speaker 2: that's I don't think that's a road he wants to 775 00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:31,000 Speaker 2: go down. 776 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,200 Speaker 4: No, I don't think Phil wants any discovery in a 777 00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,839 Speaker 4: court case about his betting or his relationship with Billy 778 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:41,640 Speaker 4: or anything else. Like he's uh. And people said that 779 00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:44,680 Speaker 4: to me, like, you know, you're surprised that Phil didn't 780 00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,200 Speaker 4: didn't challenge any of these assertions in my book and 781 00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:48,919 Speaker 4: a courtlize that, first of all, there are one hundred 782 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,719 Speaker 4: percent solid he'd be foolish to do so. The First 783 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,560 Speaker 4: Amendment is a powerful tool. But secondly, the last thing 784 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,320 Speaker 4: he wants is cross examination. You know, it's it's a 785 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,239 Speaker 4: two way street. If you comes at you, then you 786 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,919 Speaker 4: get to go at him. And that I exactly, you know. 787 00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:05,759 Speaker 2: And I think in the end, that's why Phil didn't 788 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,440 Speaker 2: testify in New York or even make a public statement. 789 00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:12,280 Speaker 2: He mean, look, when you hire when you hire greg Craig, 790 00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:16,480 Speaker 2: when you hire Obama's chief White House counsel to represent 791 00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:22,279 Speaker 2: you in in cases involving the Southern District of New 792 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:26,080 Speaker 2: York and the FBI and the Justice Department, there's not 793 00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:28,520 Speaker 2: too many lawyers in the country that had more juice 794 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,920 Speaker 2: than Gregory Craig. And I think that, you know, to 795 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:34,919 Speaker 2: Phil's credit, he went to the top of the food 796 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:40,839 Speaker 2: chain and they cut a sweetheart deal for Phil. That's 797 00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:45,640 Speaker 2: Phil protecting Phil on the personal level, like you said, 798 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:50,040 Speaker 2: I think Billy said and wanted a public statement that 799 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:54,720 Speaker 2: would have I think altered the dynamic or the DNA 800 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:59,000 Speaker 2: of that trial. And you know, we'll never know because 801 00:45:59,080 --> 00:45:59,880 Speaker 2: it never happened. 802 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's a fascinating saga in both of their lives. 803 00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:09,399 Speaker 4: But well, the book is gambler Arman. You you did 804 00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:11,960 Speaker 4: a hell of a job wrangling this this story. Kudos 805 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,759 Speaker 4: to you. And I will say, just on a personal level, 806 00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,600 Speaker 4: it's inspiring that you're seventy years old and you're out 807 00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:21,200 Speaker 4: here still doing it. You know, a lot of my 808 00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:23,440 Speaker 4: a lot of my heroes in life are the people 809 00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:26,360 Speaker 4: who just keep going. It's the Philip Ross, the Bob Dylan, 810 00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:30,160 Speaker 4: who they were doing great work fifty years after they started. 811 00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:33,920 Speaker 4: You know that That's that inspires me to keep trying. 812 00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:36,840 Speaker 4: So what's cool to see it. 813 00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:39,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know what I would do. I've never 814 00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:43,879 Speaker 2: really I never really felt like I had a job. 815 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,880 Speaker 2: You know, I've always loved I fell in love with 816 00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,160 Speaker 2: journalism at an early age. I was a big reader, 817 00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:54,200 Speaker 2: I played a lot of sports. Reading led to a 818 00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:57,879 Speaker 2: life of wanting to write. I got hired by SI. 819 00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:00,839 Speaker 2: I still talk to Mark mole Way, you know, our 820 00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:02,440 Speaker 2: managing editor at the magazine. 821 00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:03,640 Speaker 4: In fact, I talked to him. 822 00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:05,560 Speaker 2: He's got a book, he's got gambled with him in 823 00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:08,399 Speaker 2: Europe right now, he's in Ireland. We talked. Not too bad. 824 00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:11,799 Speaker 2: I like last week, I'm you know, I worked for 825 00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:15,560 Speaker 2: Ruin Oledge at World News tonight, Peter Jennings, I was 826 00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:19,200 Speaker 2: at Real Sports in sixty minutes. I've had a very 827 00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:25,600 Speaker 2: gratifying career and you know the books with Jeff and 828 00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:31,360 Speaker 2: other people, Alex Wolf, myself, it's just it's kind of 829 00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:34,080 Speaker 2: a it's a life force for me. You know. It 830 00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:36,880 Speaker 2: gives me energy and it gets me up in the morning. 831 00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:39,799 Speaker 2: And I'm doing things now that I want to do. 832 00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:41,920 Speaker 2: I don't have to do anything that I don't want 833 00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:44,719 Speaker 2: to do. And that's a pretty gratifying place to be 834 00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:46,040 Speaker 2: at this point in my life. 835 00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,399 Speaker 4: That's cool. Well, it's aspirational. So thank you for making 836 00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:55,040 Speaker 4: the time for this podcast. I think it's time really important. Yeah, 837 00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:57,760 Speaker 4: it's important context for people when they read this book. 838 00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:00,360 Speaker 4: You know how it came to be and how regrets 839 00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:04,200 Speaker 4: that the process was so anyway, all right, well this 840 00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:07,960 Speaker 4: was another fire Drill podcast that was Armin Kataean. This 841 00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:10,560 Speaker 4: is Alan Chipnak. Thank you for listening. We'll be back 842 00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:13,160 Speaker 4: at it again soon. And uh this is the end. 843 00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:18,080 Speaker 4: I'm en big again. 844 00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:22,359 Speaker 3: I played the wind, made a fortune when my ship 845 00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:26,600 Speaker 3: came in. I ran the table. Never thought I could 846 00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:27,680 Speaker 3: fall down. 847 00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:28,520 Speaker 4: In the winter time. 848 00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:30,160 Speaker 3: Hit me like a cannon. 849 00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:30,960 Speaker 2: The ball. 850 00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:36,520 Speaker 4: And now I can't shake this losing stream. 851 00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:42,560 Speaker 3: Every road I take is a dead end stream. I 852 00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:47,520 Speaker 3: got thoughts in my head, can't get him trying not 853 00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:49,840 Speaker 3: to think what I'm thinking about. 854 00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:52,000 Speaker 2: I got thoughts in my head. 855 00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:56,200 Speaker 3: I can't get him out, trying not to think what 856 00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:57,440 Speaker 3: I'm thinking about.