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Speaker 1: Today on The David Rutherford Show, I welcome Joseph Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 1: head of Forensics at Jackson State University, as well as

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Speaker 1: a normal appearance on Nancy Grace and also has his

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Speaker 1: own podcast, the body Bags Podcast.

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Speaker 2: Don't miss this one.

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Speaker 1: We talk Zoro Ranch, a missing UFO general, and what

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Speaker 1: it means to brush up and deal with.

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Speaker 2: Death on a daily basis.

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Speaker 1: Today on The David Rutherford Show, Joseph, welcome to the

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Speaker 1: show again. Let me just I just really want to

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Speaker 1: emphasize your your background. You're an MFS FAB m d I,

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Speaker 1: and you're a Distinguished Scholar of Applied Forensics at Jackson

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Speaker 1: State University, and you hold a faculty rank of a

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Speaker 1: social see a Professor of Applied Forensics. You also hold

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Speaker 1: a Master's of Forensic Sciences degree from National University, and

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Speaker 1: your board Certified Fellow at of the American Board of

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Speaker 1: Medical Legal Death Investigators. And from what we chatted before,

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Speaker 1: you've also had extensive experience in New Orleans and in

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Speaker 1: the Corner's office as well as in Georgia and greater

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Speaker 1: Greater Atlanta area too. So I guess I think the

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Speaker 1: biggest thing that you know, we'll get into eventually is

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Speaker 1: just what it's like to how this job restructures your

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Speaker 1: perceptions of death and as you watch how other human

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Speaker 1: beings have to deal with it as it goes. But

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Speaker 1: before we jump into that, you recently did a fantastic

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Speaker 1: show on the Zoro Ranch with Epstein, and I would

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Speaker 1: just love to get your you know, your ideas behind

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Speaker 1: this and why it could be kind of the next

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Speaker 1: big break in the case. I guess it seems like

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Speaker 1: you know, it's difficult to say, there aren't many active

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Speaker 1: cases going on right now, so I'd love to hear

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Speaker 1: your impression of what this might mean for the greater

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Speaker 1: context of the Epstein Files.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Well, first off, thank you, thank you for having me.

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Speaker 4: It's it's an honor and a privilege. Thank you so much. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: as far as Epstein, I've kind of got a history

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Speaker 4: going back, you know, I started literally just kind of

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Speaker 4: back up a little bit the I think it was

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Speaker 4: the morning after he was found dead. I'd heard, you know,

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Speaker 4: heard about him, you know, forever and ever, you know,

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Speaker 4: in the news and whatnot in the news cycle. But

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Speaker 4: when when he died, of course, I was on the

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Speaker 4: air almost immediately, had people call him from all over

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Speaker 4: and from just from that beginning, that's when my my

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Speaker 4: appetite from a forensic standpoint kind of got uh, kind

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Speaker 4: of wetted my appetite, if you will. And so I

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Speaker 4: began follow it very closely and follow that thread because

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Speaker 4: there's all as you know, it's there's so many roads

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Speaker 4: you can go down with it. So I really try

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Speaker 4: to stay I hate to use the term to stay, well,

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Speaker 4: I'll stay within my guardrails instead of saying within my lane,

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Speaker 4: because I think that there's interconnectivity with a lot of stuff.

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Speaker 4: And so been following for a while, and I'd had

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Speaker 4: a lot of conversations with people, particularly in forensics about

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Speaker 4: the findings, you know, from the jail and what there

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Speaker 4: was and what there wasn't. And then I guess it

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Speaker 4: was probably three years ago. I was chatting with a

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Speaker 4: buddy of mine and he's he's an old home saw detective,

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Speaker 4: and we were we were talking about if you, if you,

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Speaker 4: if you had access to to a young young women

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Speaker 4: and they're say Eastern or even Western European, I can't

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Speaker 4: speak the language, and you come dragging them to the US,

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Speaker 4: they're essentially disposable. And so that was our supposition and

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Speaker 4: the idea was what would you do with them? Well,

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Speaker 4: some people had said on Little Saint James, you know,

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Speaker 4: surrounded by sharks, you know, you take them out there?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, alpha, alpha predator.

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Speaker 4: But then I got to thinking about the ranch, and

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Speaker 4: I'm thinking, you know, first off, what the hell do

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Speaker 4: you need with this? Because you boy ain't no rancher,

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Speaker 4: that's for sure, you know. And so I'm thinking, why

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Speaker 4: would you need this? Well, purpose is isolation if you

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Speaker 4: want to get rid of somebody, And I know that

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Speaker 4: you probably spent time out there in the deserts and

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Speaker 4: it goes on forever and ever, you know, and it's

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Speaker 4: like a sea, a sea of sand and khalis as

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Speaker 4: far as you can see.

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Speaker 3: You know what you're gonna do. And then this this.

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Speaker 4: Story popped and we had had this discussion I would say,

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Speaker 4: probably about three or four years ago, and then you know,

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Speaker 4: just leaked email. And again I don't know how much

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Speaker 4: veracity to assign any stuff, you know, because I can't

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Speaker 4: necessarily validate it, even though it's in a dump. You

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Speaker 4: just never know, because there's any number of people that

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Speaker 4: are involved with it. But if I take that bit

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Speaker 4: of knowledge and I began to think about it. It's

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Speaker 4: one of the reasons that I wanted to cover it

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Speaker 4: on my podcast Body Backs, you know, because what would

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Speaker 4: you do?

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Speaker 3: How could you facilitate it?

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Speaker 4: Well, the fact that it's a so called ranch, which

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Speaker 4: you know, equates to for many people what they refer

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Speaker 4: to as a cultural welfare. You know, a rich guy

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Speaker 4: will buy a ranch or a farm just to write

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Speaker 4: this thing off. Well, they have to maintain it. And

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Speaker 4: it's my understanding they even have fire apartment on this thing.

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Speaker 4: And you know, he's got equipment out there because you

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Speaker 4: can't go into that soil out there like that calichi

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Speaker 4: that i'magine to old good two good old boys with

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Speaker 4: a couple of shovels and dig a hole pick axe.

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Speaker 3: Yeah it doesn't yeah, yeah, it just that don't rock.

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Speaker 4: And so anyway, I knew that if you're going to

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Speaker 4: do this, you're going to show up with some kind

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Speaker 4: of heavy equipment. The problem with this is that you're

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Speaker 4: talking about This is what I do. If somebody tells

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Speaker 4: me there's a body located somewhere, I will try to

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Speaker 4: expand that area in my mind. Because generally memories are

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Speaker 4: very poor. I'm going to at least double that area,

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Speaker 4: and you're going to need to kind of target that

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Speaker 4: area and begin to look at it. They've got all

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Speaker 4: the time in the world. It's not like they're going anywhere.

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Speaker 4: The place is locked down, it's secured, So you need

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Speaker 4: to go back as far as you can. And I

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Speaker 4: was had a discussion with my son, you know, because

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Speaker 4: he's the GIS guy. He does the geospatial stuff, and

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Speaker 4: it's like, Son, how would you you know, if you

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Speaker 4: were trying to target an area, you know, what would

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Speaker 4: you do? You know as far as looking for changes,

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Speaker 4: Because you know there's people that do all that. Their

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Speaker 4: brain works in differ way that those are. Those are

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Speaker 4: my favorite people at the agency.

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Speaker 2: I worked with him.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they're just operating on a different level. He said, well, Dad,

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Speaker 1: the first.

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Speaker 4: Thing you need to do is go back and you know,

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Speaker 4: they need to pull all the old satellite imagery and

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Speaker 4: they'll just walk their way through this thing. And then

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Speaker 4: he goes into the kind of more complex complex issues

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Speaker 4: like geo changes, hydrology and all these sorts of things

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Speaker 4: and what's going to impact that area the most. Looking

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Speaker 4: at the rise and fall the contour of land, you know,

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Speaker 4: how much rainfall do you get in a particular area

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Speaker 4: over a particular time, and then you kind of tighten

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Speaker 4: it down, and he said, and from that you can

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Speaker 4: build out, and you can begin to use things like

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Speaker 4: light are beneath, beneath drones and even you know, certain

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Speaker 4: aerial platforms other than drones where they can kind of

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Speaker 4: sweep the area and go back and forth. You look

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Speaker 4: for those those little changes. You might be using infrared

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Speaker 4: or you know, you never know what kind of spectral

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Speaker 4: analysis they're going to do, and you're just looking for

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Speaker 4: changes in the soil. And it's a two edged sword

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Speaker 4: because out there things do change. They don't change a lot, though,

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Speaker 4: not like down here in the South now, you know,

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Speaker 4: because it's baked in out there, so if you see

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Speaker 4: any kind of abnormality, you can kind of hone in

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Speaker 4: on that. My biggest fear, I think moving forward this

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Speaker 4: is that the state's handling it. And I don't know

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Speaker 4: what kind of resources they have, But if it was

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Speaker 4: me putting teams together, I'm not going to go out

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Speaker 4: and grab a bunch of and I'm not disparaging them,

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Speaker 4: but I'm just saying I'm not going to be looking

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Speaker 4: for a group of crime scene investigators to go work

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Speaker 4: a particular area. I'm going to break this thing down

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Speaker 4: into teams, and the team lead will always be a

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Speaker 4: forensic anthropologist, and now I'll probably have a geologist at

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Speaker 4: my disposal as well. And you populate each one of

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Speaker 4: those teams with crime scene investigators, photographer, and those are

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Speaker 4: things that will do the bidding of the forensic anthropologists

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Speaker 4: because they can read the soil. You know, people hear

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Speaker 4: about places like the Body Farm at UT the Maple

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Speaker 4: Center down in Florida, University of Florida, which is a

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Speaker 4: fantastic place, and they've got human desiccation labs in a

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Speaker 4: lot of different places where we study burials and all that.

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Speaker 4: So you want those people to be you know, to

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Speaker 4: use military term to tip of the spear. So they're

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Speaker 4: not they're looking at this from a scientific perspective. They're

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Speaker 4: not looking at this necessarily from a proscyctorial perspective. They're

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Speaker 4: looking what does the science reveal to us, and they

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Speaker 4: need to take their time. The only problem is is

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Speaker 4: that we see this with the Guthrie case right now,

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Speaker 4: is that the media are the clockwatchers and they control

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Speaker 4: the pace and there's always stuff going on in the background.

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Speaker 4: That public doesn't need to know, you know. No, if

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Speaker 4: you're not inside the investigative bubble, you don't need that data.

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Speaker 4: You just don't, you know. And so there's always something

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Speaker 4: that's working. It all depends on, you know, it's generally

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Speaker 4: not the technology is operator error.

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Speaker 2: You knowing that, you love that you just said that

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Speaker 2: always yeah.

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Speaker 4: You know, And I'm chief among centers. I felled multiple

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Speaker 4: times throughout my career in Atlanta and New Orleans, you know,

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Speaker 4: and screwed up cases.

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Speaker 3: We all do. No one's perfect at all, and.

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Speaker 4: So you you have to take your time and work

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Speaker 4: these cases. I think the biggest question people will ask, well, Morgan,

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Speaker 4: if we if they do discover something, will there be

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Speaker 4: anything left? Well, that all depends on. It all depends

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Speaker 4: on and I call it memorialization of the dead. It

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Speaker 4: all depends on how the bodies were memorialized. And what

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Speaker 4: I mean by that that's kind of a broad statement.

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Speaker 4: Did they cocon the bodies in anything? And what were

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Speaker 4: they cocooned in if they used to tarp or did

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Speaker 4: they just throw remains into into bare earth where the

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Speaker 4: bodies clothed in any way? Did they strip them of

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Speaker 4: any clothing?

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Speaker 3: Uh?

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Speaker 4: Did they entune them, because just you know, you got heavy,

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Speaker 4: heavy equipment. Uh, if you've got somebody that goes and

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Speaker 4: digs a hole and they they pour concrete on top,

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Speaker 4: well that works to our benefit. I got all, I

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Speaker 4: got all the time in the world, go out there

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Speaker 4: and bust up concrete. I'll take my sweet time. I'll

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Speaker 4: sit out the sun, have have cold drink while I'm

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Speaker 4: doing it, and go back to work. I'm not in

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Speaker 4: any rush, I'm not running from anybody. So what's inside

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Speaker 4: of this area is going to be dependent upon how

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Speaker 4: the bodies were treated during that period of time, you know,

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Speaker 4: because what you're looking for are going to be any

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Speaker 4: kind of traumatic artifacts that are left behind. I think

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Speaker 4: in the messaging here we had heard that at least

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Speaker 4: this was an asphixial kind of death. So if if

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Speaker 4: you're you know, if you're talking.

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Speaker 2: Can you go over that real quick in terms of

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Speaker 2: that mass.

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Speaker 1: And I think there, you know, because one of the

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Speaker 1: things I learned on your show, it was this this

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Speaker 1: anonymous tip that had come into a local news reporter.

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Speaker 1: But it was I think it was seventeen right, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And can you just talk about that.

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Speaker 4: Seventeen or nineteen. It was in that time period. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: it's like a twenty four month period, yep. And this

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Speaker 4: person had formerly worked there, apparently had dropped the dime

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Speaker 4: on this and said that, and it called into a

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Speaker 4: radio show and I can't remember if it was if

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Speaker 4: it was a local show and like Albuquerque or Santa

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Speaker 4: Fe or one of these places. I was a conservative

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Speaker 4: radio talk hold host host of one of these shows,

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Speaker 4: and said, yeah, you got there's two girls that were

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Speaker 4: that were strangled or asphyxiated during rough sex or rough

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Speaker 4: sex play. And you know, the first thing I thought

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Speaker 4: about is that, Okay, if it happens once and it's

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Speaker 4: rough sex, it's not excusable. But you kind of kind

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Speaker 4: of think, okay, it got out of hand. And how

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Speaker 4: many times have I heard that over my career got

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Speaker 4: out of hand?

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Speaker 2: I can't even imagine.

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Speaker 3: But now we're talking about that's right.

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Speaker 4: You're starting to develop a pattern here, and that goes

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Speaker 4: to psychopathy at that point in time, because if there's two,

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Speaker 4: if you've got somebody saying there's two, guess what I think.

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Speaker 4: I think there's more. Yeah, there's more than two. This

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Speaker 4: way my mind works as an investigator, you know, as

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Speaker 4: a forensic scientist. I'm not going to buy the first

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Speaker 4: thing down the pike. If you're saying too, I'm gonna

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Speaker 4: think four or six or whatever it is, whatever multiple

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Speaker 4: of two you want to work out.

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Speaker 1: So you can also even if now like just as

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Speaker 1: to extrapolate on what you're talking about, the psychopathy of it, right,

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Speaker 1: we even if you just look at a bunch of

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Speaker 1: the emails and just the connotation of that type of

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Speaker 1: what integrated play to them, because that's what it seemed like.

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Speaker 1: It's playful. This is playful language of how they're just

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Speaker 1: talking about you know, oh I hope, I hope she's

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Speaker 1: all right, or you know, you know, and it's just

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Speaker 1: like it's almost this afterthought of you know, there's no

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Speaker 1: there's no humanization of these girls that they're with in

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Speaker 1: any concept, right, It's just about their own.

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Speaker 2: Whatever type of pleasure they're into it.

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Speaker 1: And apparently it has this this undertone of of of

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Speaker 1: rough sex or in many cases if you look go

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Speaker 1: back to the two thousand and eight or the two

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Speaker 1: thousand and five six stuff out of Palm Beach, there's

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Speaker 1: some physicality in all of this as well too.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there is, and and you know, being a medical

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Speaker 4: legal death investigator.

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Speaker 3: And two, arguably.

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Speaker 4: Atlanta, New Orleans used to be one of the biggest

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Speaker 4: cities in South prior to Katrina, but in two of

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Speaker 4: the largest metropolitan areas in the South. I've worked several

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Speaker 4: series of serial homicides over the course of my career.

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Speaker 4: And you know, with that said, there was always an

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Speaker 4: element of dehumanization, you know, and you hear that's kind

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Speaker 4: of wrote, you know, you hear it in movies and

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Speaker 4: whatnot and all that sort of stuff. But there's a

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Speaker 4: grain of truth in that where people, individuals are used

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Speaker 4: as playthings essentially to satisfy whatever kind of primal lust

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Speaker 4: or sat you know, they're trying to satisfy a need,

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Speaker 4: whatever it is, and they get off on the horror

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Speaker 4: and the terror of it. And you can only imagine,

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Speaker 4: You've got this young, young lady that can't speak can't

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Speaker 4: speak English, she has no family around, She's been taken

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Speaker 4: away out in the middle of the deserts somewhere, and

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Speaker 4: all hope is lost at that point in time. And

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Speaker 4: you can imagine what kind of pleasure, uh, some psychopath

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Speaker 4: would derive from that, because they truly they become God

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Speaker 4: out there. You know in the midst of that they

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Speaker 4: have this individual's life in their hands, and that goes

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Speaker 4: to you know, uh, you know, you begin to think

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Speaker 4: about the pardon me, you go you go to think

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Speaker 4: about you know, we think about killing right and homicides

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Speaker 4: and whatnot, and there's very kind of, uh, there's kind

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Speaker 4: of a this mild change that takes place when you

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Speaker 4: think about modalities of homicide. You know, you've got somebody

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Speaker 4: that you know shows up and they're going to shoot somebody,

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Speaker 4: all right, right, well as you well know, you can

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Speaker 4: do that from a great distance, you can do it

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Speaker 4: close up. But when you start to get into things

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Speaker 4: like bludgeoning, when you're beating somebody to death, or you're

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Speaker 4: utilizing sharp force weapons to stab them, which has its

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Speaker 4: actual connotation all and of itself because of the thrusting

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Speaker 4: of the knife. We saw that, I think I saw

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Speaker 4: that in Idaho. I think that was completely sexually motivated.

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Speaker 3: With a k bar.

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Speaker 4: And probably at the top of the list is going

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Speaker 4: to be suffocation, because you can when when you're applying

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Speaker 4: force to somebody's neck, you can you can sense their

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Speaker 4: breath on your skin, you can feel feel the texture

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Speaker 4: of their skin, perspiration, you can feel the rise and

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Speaker 4: follow their chest. You can feel fear to a certain degree.

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Speaker 4: You can feel the rapid nature of their pulse. And

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Speaker 4: then when they get into that perimortive state or pulse

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Speaker 4: against Wayne goes away. So you tie that back to

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Speaker 4: whatever this bug is that they have in their brain,

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Speaker 4: that's that needs to be fed. And it gets really

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Speaker 4: really dark in a hurry. And I've been, you know,

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Speaker 4: in my career, I've been in dark spots where I've

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Speaker 4: had to win the aftermath of a lot of these things.

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Speaker 4: And for me, you know, they Epstein, I think has

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Speaker 4: been elevated up to on this perch that he somehow

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Speaker 4: this super criminal. He's as much of a scumbag as

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Speaker 4: anybody else. I've worked cases that individuals died, died at

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Speaker 4: their hand. If in fact he did do this, he's

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Speaker 4: no different. He's no different, uh than any other kind

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Speaker 4: of serialized perpetrator that's out there. It's just that, you know,

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Speaker 4: Ted Bundy, he wasn't connected and I didn't working into

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Speaker 4: Ted Bunny case. I'm just using it as an example.

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Speaker 4: Ted Bundy, you know, didn't have political influencers all around him,

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Speaker 4: and people.

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Speaker 1: Had a billion dollars right and access to anything you wanted, anything.

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Speaker 4: You wanted at any point in time, which makes you

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Speaker 4: uber dangerous, you know, I don't, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I mean, he's he's right up there with Caligula. You know.

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Speaker 1: When I begin to think brillan, that's a brilliant correlation.

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Speaker 2: That's a brilliant where there's no boundaries none. Right, So

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Speaker 2: it's a.

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Speaker 1: Power that you you it's almost it, and I think

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Speaker 1: it correlates to the transhumanism uh uh. Emails going back

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Speaker 1: and forth with different people, Peter Field and some of

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Speaker 1: these other people, and talking about research conducting at the

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Speaker 1: ranch as well too.

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Speaker 2: So you I mean, I would imagine as an.

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Speaker 1: Investigator you you certainly are looking for those correlations in

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Speaker 1: conjunction with, you know, an area that would suffice for

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Speaker 1: this type of activity. So if let's say you were

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden called by New Mexico and whoever's

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Speaker 1: doing the investigations, how would you approach it?

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Speaker 3: Very methodically? I would.

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Speaker 4: I would put together a plan before before I ever

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Speaker 4: set foot on that ridge line. And there some people

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Speaker 4: refer to it as a ridge line. I've heard other

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Speaker 4: people say this's a cattle raising area, and they might

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Speaker 4: very well be adjacent. I can tell you this we're

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Speaker 4: talking about just to put this into focus for folks,

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Speaker 4: we're talking about an area that is I think that

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Speaker 4: it's in excess of eight thousand acres. In addition to

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Speaker 4: that it is buffered by state land, which you know,

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Speaker 4: like if you've got like BLM, I'm referring to Bureau

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Speaker 4: of Land Management where you've got this kind of so

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Speaker 4: you're you're truly isolated. I mean, you're out in the wilderness.

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Speaker 4: You know, I would before we ever, we would look

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Speaker 4: at aerial surveillance. I mean, be very very careful about

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Speaker 4: this whole thing. We're gonna have a plan when we

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Speaker 4: go in. We're gonna have points of of of ingress,

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Speaker 4: you know, and thinking about keeping it as secure as

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Speaker 4: possible and having accountability because I don't want anybody looking

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Speaker 4: over my shoulder while I'm working. I don't work for free.

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Speaker 4: This is in you know, this is in a side show.

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Speaker 4: I want to go out there. There's only specific people

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Speaker 4: that will be allowed to access out there, because this

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Speaker 4: is going to be painstaking work. You cannot go in

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Speaker 4: half cocked on any level. You have to go in

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Speaker 4: and really understand what your objective is here, and it's

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Speaker 4: at this point in time.

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Speaker 3: You're not going.

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Speaker 4: There to seek justice or to arrest people and all

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Speaker 4: that embroidered stuff that you hear about you going out

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Speaker 4: there to see if you can discover human remains and

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Speaker 4: what's the most effective way to do that and look

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Speaker 4: for all I know, you might get out there and

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Speaker 4: you might find human remains and they might not be

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Speaker 4: connected to anything, And that has happened. I've worked cases

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Speaker 4: like that, you know, where we knew that there was

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Speaker 4: a dumping ground for somebody, we went out there and

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Speaker 4: we found another human remain that was not related to

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Speaker 4: the case that we had initially showed up, or we

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Speaker 4: have found the initial case that we showed up, and oh,

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Speaker 4: by the way, there was another body out there. So

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Speaker 4: that does happen. But that's in a more densely populated area.

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Speaker 4: So if I go out there and we find any

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Speaker 4: kind of human remainance there, I'm going to begin to think, Okay,

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Speaker 4: well it's just tied back to him.

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Speaker 3: And then.

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Speaker 4: Then you have to begin to think about, well, does

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Speaker 4: the physical findings that I'm looking at from an anthropological

397
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Speaker 4: standpoint do they marry up with the timeline in which

398
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Speaker 4: he had possession of this property, you know, because I

399
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Speaker 4: think that he probably gained possession of it, like in

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Speaker 4: ninety three. It was disposed of I think in twenty

401
00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,360
Speaker 4: three by the estate. You know, I'm sure that Mark Epstein,

402
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Speaker 4: his brother, was involved in that to some degree or

403
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Speaker 4: somebody associated with that group. You know, however that was handled.

404
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Speaker 4: That's not down to the holl to the left. That's

405
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Speaker 4: not my department. So you know, but you think about

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Speaker 4: that twenty year period and when did he last visit

407
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Speaker 4: that location, and how does that marry up with the

408
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Speaker 4: story that this source is given on which, by the way,

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Speaker 4: that individual's name was redacted of course, out at the documents.

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Speaker 4: And I'm hoping that the Feds. I'm hoping that the

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Speaker 4: FEDS are pressing that they found that individual, and they're

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Speaker 4: pressing them right now for more detail, because more detail

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Speaker 4: you have, I'd want to be armed with that before

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Speaker 4: I would go out there. I would also hope that

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Speaker 4: the FEDS would have the foresight to say, look, well,

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Speaker 4: we'll offer resources. And I'm not just talking about like

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Speaker 4: the e RT from FBI.

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Speaker 1: Wearing their FBI jackets doing a FOD walk down.

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Speaker 3: In the grounds.

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Speaker 4: Well, I want to say, can you can you let me?

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Speaker 4: Can can you please ask folks at the Smithsonians. They'll

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Speaker 4: come out because Smithsonian has some of the best friends

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Speaker 4: of anthropologists in the world.

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Speaker 3: And oh yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 4: And so that's why that little clip in Silence of

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Speaker 4: Lambs when Thomas what's his name, I can't the guy

427
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Speaker 4: that wrote the book, but when they show up, she

428
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 4: shows up at the and you know they've got the

429
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,640
Speaker 4: entomologists that's there may pull the well. You have anthropologists

430
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Speaker 4: that are there too, some of the best in the world.

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Speaker 4: I'd want to have the best on my team out there,

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Speaker 4: and not just you know, I'm not disparaging, but I

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Speaker 4: just I don't want merely the RT. I want I

434
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 4: want PhD level anthropologists that are out there that can

435
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:27,639
Speaker 4: kind of read the ground. There's a lot riding on

436
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 4: this because if you're talking about if you're talking about

437
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 4: human trafficking, which everybody always goes around beating the drum about,

438
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:35,399
Speaker 4: let's see, let's see if you want to put your

439
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 4: money where your mouth is and invest the time and the

440
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 4: resources to pull these people out, send them out there

441
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 4: and get these teams together. And I'm talking about full bore.

442
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 4: You know again, I'm I wasn't. I'm not making a

443
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,159
Speaker 4: joke When I say I want a geologist out there,

444
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 4: I want them to and I want I don't want

445
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 4: a geologist that's up in an ivory tower at some

446
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 4: other location. I want somebody that understands the geology of

447
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 4: this specific location period.

448
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:02,919
Speaker 3: End of paragraph.

449
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 4: So all this stuff has to be be organized and facilitated.

450
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,120
Speaker 3: That's gonna be the most important thing, all right.

451
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 1: Before we get into the next aspect, I just really

452
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 1: want to talk about how blessed we are to be

453
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 1: sponsored by Black Rifle Coffee. I've been a Black Rifle

454
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Speaker 1: fan and supporter since the beginning, since Evan came up

455
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Speaker 1: with the idea.

456
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Speaker 2: Years and years and years ago.

457
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458
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462
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463
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464
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465
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466
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467
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468
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469
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470
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471
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472
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473
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474
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475
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Speaker 1: Who Yah, love you guys, you know, I just it's

476
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: I think I love the comment about the press, you know,

477
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,920
Speaker 1: and what that does to you know, your chief of police,

478
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 1: your local mayor, your your congressman, whoever it is up

479
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,199
Speaker 1: the food chain that starts thinking about polling numbers as

480
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 1: opposed to running a sophisticated operation, right, And I think

481
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 1: you're seeing that again. You mentioned the Guthree case. There's

482
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: this other case that's fascinating me right now. It's about

483
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: this and it's in the same area. This general who

484
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 1: was part of the UFO program and at the Air Force,

485
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 1: and he's been missing fourteen days now, and and it's

486
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,239
Speaker 1: it's really starting to pick up steam and in the

487
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,479
Speaker 1: news cycle as well too. What's that like for those

488
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 1: people who are running the investigations, who are getting pressure

489
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 1: from the press, from the families, from the you know,

490
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 1: the political people that.

491
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 2: Need to win right?

492
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 1: How How what kind of role does that play on

493
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 1: a lead investigator and then everybody beneath them in terms

494
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: of you know, because it is I mean, it's science.

495
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 1: I mean, you guys are in the midst and it's

496
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 1: it's you know, and a lot of the stuff that

497
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 1: you're collecting is microscopic even, and that's I mean, that's

498
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: a whole nother level that when you allow your mind

499
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 1: to to go to a microscopic level, what is it?

500
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 1: It amplifies the space of the relevant space of analysis,

501
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 1: you know.

502
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 2: Times x times whatever it is.

503
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: So how does how does that pressure work in the

504
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 1: in the food chain of or in the hierarchy of

505
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 1: of of jobs? And then how do you guys push

506
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 1: back on it in a way that kind of comports

507
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,199
Speaker 1: with you know, giving you the space and time you

508
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 1: need to do it right.

509
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 4: I'm gonna tell you a real quick story that kind

510
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 4: of sums us up awesome.

511
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 2: That's all I was asked I just want I just want.

512
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 4: To no, No, it's completely salient. We had a mass

513
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 4: shooting that happened many, many years ago in one of

514
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 4: the jurisdictions I worked in, and we had in excess

515
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,479
Speaker 4: of thirteen people that were dead, all right, and there

516
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 4: were other people that were dead in other locations that

517
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 4: were not in our jurisdiction but yet that were still

518
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 4: part of the case. The same trader to kill them

519
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 4: as well. And the individual that had done the killing

520
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 4: had gone into an office park and just smoked everybody

521
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 4: that was in this location. I'm talking about people just

522
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 4: sitting at their computer terminals, you know. And I probably

523
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 4: in that moment, Tom saw one of the best examples

524
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 4: of leadership I've ever seen in my life and from

525
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 4: in my little world, all right, as a medical legal

526
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 4: death investigator. Our boss at the Tom that was the

527
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 4: chief chief investigator. Do you know he never walked onto

528
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 4: the scene with us. He stayed right at the tape

529
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 4: and he would come to the door of the building

530
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 4: and ask us what do we need? He handled all

531
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 4: the questions, wow, everything we never dealt with the press

532
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 4: and the thing about when you have a multiple event

533
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 4: like this, you know, I talked about teams. Just a

534
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 4: second ago relative to thing of New Mexico. We had

535
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 4: to break up into teams because you don't just you

536
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 4: don't have one guy that's going to go through and

537
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 4: work all the bodies. So you break up into teams

538
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 4: and you process one body individual or two bodies individually.

539
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 4: And it's very labor intensive work. You talked about. You know,

540
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 4: you're working on a micro level because you know the

541
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 4: old I use old adage with my students at Jacksonville

542
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 4: State where I say, you know, if you once you

543
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 4: walk across the threshold for the first time, you can

544
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 4: never walk across it for the first time again.

545
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 3: It's there. You know.

546
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 4: Lawyers like to say, you can't unring the bell. That

547
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 4: sound goes forward. And so if I can have somebody

548
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 4: that is managing the outside and they should be trained

549
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 4: to do this, they're keeping a monkey off our backs

550
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 4: while we're doing the detailed heavy lifting stuff that's there.

551
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 4: Now they're doing their own heavy lifting. All right, I'm

552
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 4: not diminishing what they're doing, and keep them off of

553
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 4: our back and let us weave together this tapestry of

554
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 4: evidence that we have because and that was years and

555
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 4: years ago. Rut can you imagine nowadays the environment that

556
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 4: we walk into. Now, I equate it to let's see,

557
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 4: like walking into a surgical suite. You have to be

558
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 4: prepped when you walk in. You have to know what

559
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 4: you're going to be doing, and that's going to change,

560
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 4: just like surgery changes. But you walk into this environment,

561
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 4: you have to be in your total gear when you

562
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 4: walk in. You have to be geared up in your

563
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 4: brain and you have to act like anything I tell

564
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 4: my kids that I teach now, I give them two examples.

565
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 4: Either pretend that there are buried land mines everywhere in

566
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 4: that space that you're going to be stepping, or cold rattlesnakes,

567
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 4: that anything that you can that you do, you're going

568
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 4: to impact the outcome of this case because your stupidity

569
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 4: or your lack or your your use of wisdom. You

570
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 4: can you can change the flow anyway. And you know,

571
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 4: if you really want to lay it on thick, you

572
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 4: tell them, well, look, you know, if you don't do

573
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 4: your job, there might be somebody walking the streets that

574
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 4: could kill somebody else or do whatever horrible thing they

575
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 4: might be about. So you have to break this thing

576
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 4: down and talking about the general that's missing, that individual

577
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 4: those individuals that are currently working that case. My hope

578
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 4: is is that they've got people keeping money monkeys off

579
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 4: of their back and they're able to focus like a

580
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 4: laser on every little breadcrumb. And I'm talking about things

581
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 4: like digital bread crumbs, because that's a world that we

582
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 4: exist in today because these damn things. We carry a

583
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 4: crime scene in our pocket everywhere we go, now.

584
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 3: We do.

585
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 4: I mean, that's the reality of it. I tell my

586
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 4: kids all the time that I teach. It's like you're

587
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 4: going to behold things and see things in your career

588
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 4: that I could not have it even fat Yeah, I

589
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 4: couldn't plumb the depths of And that's just in the

590
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 4: digital world.

591
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 3: You get more into my world.

592
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 4: And now you're seeing the utility of DNA, and that

593
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 4: goes to being again in this world. That's almost like

594
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 4: a surgical suite because if you walk into an environment.

595
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 4: There's an old adage in forensics. It's rather the statement

596
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 4: I'm going to make is more lengthy than this, but

597
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 4: justifies It's called the cards exchange principle or the cards

598
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 4: principle of exchange, and over one hundred years ago, well

599
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 4: in excess of one hundred years ago a guy named

600
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 4: ed Mond lecard who founded the world's first crime lab

601
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 4: actually in Leon, France. He came up with a statement,

602
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 4: it's brilliant mind and it still applies today even in

603
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 4: digital not just physical evidence, but in digital evidence. His

604
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 4: comment was, every contact pleads a trace, and so that

605
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 4: means that the environment you entered into, you're introducing yourself

606
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 4: even as a processor of the scene. So anything you

607
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 4: dragging from your unit on your shoes, any dog here,

608
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 4: you've brought from home, and you're walking into this environment,

609
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:10,879
Speaker 4: and I think thats.

610
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 1: A sneeze, right, anything that anything ad a snotball, a

611
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,319
Speaker 1: drip of sweat, right, your perfume, you know, anything, it

612
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: seems like it because that's I mean, well.

613
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 4: Even even more profound than that, I think is that.

614
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 4: And Lecarde, I don't know if he went to this

615
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 4: or not. If you've got personal shit going on a home,

616
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 4: you're bringing that.

617
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:35,760
Speaker 3: With you too, dude.

618
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:36,359
Speaker 2: I love that.

619
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 4: And that's going to impact the way you handle the case,

620
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 4: how you view people you're interviewing. And that that's the rub,

621
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:48,760
Speaker 4: isn't it. The our flesh, our humanity, Because you cannot

622
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 4: check your humanity at the door. You want to think

623
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 4: that you can, and you build up a callous relative

624
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 4: to you know, the thou like me, the thousands and

625
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 4: thousands of bodies that I worked over the course of

626
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 4: my career over twenty years. You think you've developed a

627
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 4: callous to it where you can flip it and you're

628
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 4: but you're still impacted, even even at a microscopic level.

629
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 4: How you know what you're doing, what your attitude is

630
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 4: when you show up the workload that you're dealing with,

631
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,280
Speaker 4: and everybody pisses and moans about workload. But if you're

632
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 4: in my world, if you're and in my in my

633
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 4: in the MDI world, medical legal death investigation world, there's

634
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 4: not as many of us as there are homicide detectives

635
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 4: because we handle all deaths. You know, it's not just

636
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:47,760
Speaker 4: merely homicides. It's there's five manners of death. You've got natural,

637
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 4: undetermined suicide, accidental, and homicide. So we're not merely just

638
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 4: interested in homicide. So if you're an md I and

639
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 4: you got and you work suicide, you might catch a

640
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 4: motor vehicle accident and then you've got an elderly person

641
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 4: that's died at home. You're going to roll on that oh,

642
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 4: and by the way, we've got a double homicide. You

643
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,359
Speaker 4: have to go on and that's all in the course

644
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 4: of one shift, So you literally move from case to case.

645
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,959
Speaker 4: When I started out when dinosaurs were on the earth,

646
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 4: when I was working in New Orleans and I was

647
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 4: a young man, I was the youngest MDI in the

648
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 4: country at that point in time.

649
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 3: I was only how I was.

650
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 4: I probably was in the morgue for the first time

651
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 4: when I was twenty and I was working on bodies

652
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 4: and working as an investigator at the same time. When

653
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 4: I was twenty one, there were three investigators and we

654
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 4: handled all the little jurisdictions in there, and then I

655
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 4: was doing autopsies during the day. So your mind has

656
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 4: to be right. You have to get into this point

657
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,839
Speaker 4: where you can walk in and observe make the notes

658
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 4: because unlike you said on television, where you've got some

659
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 4: hot looking forensic pathologists that Hollywood sets up and they

660
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:01,320
Speaker 4: send out to the scene and happen. Friends and scholars

661
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 4: don't go to crime scenes, not at two o'clock in

662
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 4: the morning. They don't crawl in their houses with maggot

663
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 4: infestive bodies. That's the MDI that does that we're their

664
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 4: eyes and ears in the field, and so we're making

665
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 4: notes and we're collecting data like that to bring that

666
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 4: back into them so that they can do the autopsy.

667
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 4: So you have to be on your game, is what

668
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:23,399
Speaker 4: I'm saying in that world, you know, trying to make

669
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 4: your way through it. And so if you're not right

670
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 4: in your mind, if you're not physically squared away, which

671
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 4: many times I was not showing up, you know, just

672
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 4: dog tired, just trying to be a human outside of work.

673
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 4: You know, that's that's a hard thing to do because

674
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,359
Speaker 4: you're not a robot. You know, You're you're still going

675
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 4: to go in and bear witness and nobody, nobody.

676
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 3: In your outside world, like you got to party.

677
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 4: And you know, some guys like I don't know, he

678
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 4: manages a seven eleven, or he owns a seven eleven,

679
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 4: or owns a couple of fast food places, or a gym,

680
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:00,840
Speaker 4: or he's sales insurance.

681
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 3: What kind of conversation I'm going to have all that guy?

682
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 4: You can't, you know, can't. They're going to ask me

683
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,479
Speaker 4: to entertain them. Yeah, what's the worst thing you've ever seen?

684
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: Man?

685
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 3: Look?

686
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 4: And then after you tell them that, they'll they'll say, Wow,

687
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 4: that's really messed up. So are we going to get

688
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 4: to go for golf tomorrow?

689
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:17,479
Speaker 1: Yeah?

690
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and that's that's kind.

691
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 2: Of well, this goes back to what.

692
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 1: Really when we first chatted earlier in the week. You know,

693
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 1: this was the thing that struck me, I mean pretty

694
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 1: quickly into our conversation, and you call that's and it's

695
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 1: the mindset, but the mindset of of of dealing with

696
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,319
Speaker 1: death or the culture of death. And I shared with

697
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 1: you a little bit about, you know, working with a

698
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: therapist that had extensive, you know background working with special

699
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: operations guys. You know, we come from a culture of

700
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:55,800
Speaker 1: death as well too. Right, everything we're doing is essentially

701
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 1: a component of of of killing bad guys, right, you know,

702
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 1: and you're on the other side of that end, but

703
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 1: in a much more comprehensive reality because you're dealing with

704
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 1: all five of those those deaths. So if you could,

705
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: because I think one of the things and I was

706
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 1: trying to figure out how to ask you this and

707
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 1: and the best way to launch into this because it

708
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 1: is so there's a theological component, there's a there's a

709
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 1: metaphysical component to it. There's a philosophy, philosophical component, all

710
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 1: these things right.

711
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 2: Death is is right. There's two certainties in your life.

712
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 2: You're going to be born and you're going to die.

713
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 1: And but yet it I believe death is the most

714
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: under assessed thing within whatever the regular aspect of civilian

715
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 1: modern civilian existence is. You and and and that's why

716
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:52,879
Speaker 1: I think we see this fascination.

717
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 2: And you talked to them, maybe you could tell the

718
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 2: story you told me.

719
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 1: We talked about how infatuated people have come with true

720
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: crime series or true crime what podcasts or whatever it is,

721
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 1: and it is a booming. I mean, just last night

722
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 1: we watched my wife and I watched the documentary about

723
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 1: Andrea Yates who murdered her five kids.

724
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:13,479
Speaker 2: But it was a result of the influence of that.

725
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:19,360
Speaker 1: Cult leader, you know, and just and how that twisted

726
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,319
Speaker 1: her mind enough to go through with the most atrocious

727
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 1: thing there is on the planet with is the gilling

728
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,279
Speaker 1: of children. But people like to touch it or taste it,

729
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 1: but they really don't understand it. So let's let's let's

730
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 1: start with maybe the process of what you went from

731
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 1: that twenty twenty one year old kid to who you

732
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: are now, what you learned about the proximity to death.

733
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 1: And then maybe once you've gone down that those rabbit

734
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 1: holes in any way you want to take it, maybe

735
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 1: we we we kind of come back to a place

736
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,919
Speaker 1: of why do you think people are so in fact

737
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 1: stuated with grazing up against it, but are still petrified

738
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 1: of the reality They.

739
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 3: Are they truly are.

740
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 2: And I was huge questions.

741
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 4: No, no, no, that's okay, I'll try to break it down. Yeah,

742
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:18,240
Speaker 4: so I was. I mean because I believe, I truly

743
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 4: believe in my heart of hearts, there's this primal being

744
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 4: within us that has fear and indwelling fear of death.

745
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 4: And look, you can church it up any way you

746
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 4: want to. People say, ah, I can do that, Okay,

747
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:36,719
Speaker 4: go ahead. And most people, most people think they can

748
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 4: do it. Maybe they can do it for a little while.

749
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 4: Maybe they're smarter than I than I was because I

750
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 4: paid the price for it, because I stayed. I did

751
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 4: it a lot longer than I should have. I was

752
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,919
Speaker 4: almost like an infant when you know, my wife wound

753
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 4: up having to take care of me.

754
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 3: Oh wow.

755
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 4: And so but going back in time for me, you

756
00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 4: know kind of how I got into it. Everybody, everybody

757
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 4: has a you know, somebody done somebody wrong song. You

758
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 4: know everybody has that and I do too. And but

759
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 4: you know, for me, came up pretty rough family background

760
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 4: and was always told I would never amount to anything,

761
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,359
Speaker 4: that I was going to be a failure that and

762
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,760
Speaker 4: I would turn out just like my father had. Okay,

763
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 4: and my father was a Vietnam that that tried to

764
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 4: kill our family, you know when I was a very

765
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 4: young man, and you know, he disappeared out of our life,

766
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:40,320
Speaker 4: and he was always held up, primarily by my stepfather

767
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:42,879
Speaker 4: or somebody that I'm gonna wind up just lik him.

768
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:45,799
Speaker 4: And for anybody that I didn't realize I was doing it,

769
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 4: but for anybody that ever watched Seinfeld, Uh, I would

770
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 4: I would take Georgia's attitude and I didn't know I

771
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 4: was doing it. I was going to do the opposite

772
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 4: of that. And you'll hear a lot of people that

773
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 4: go through trauma in their life. I was not going

774
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 4: to be like that. I was going to be a

775
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 4: good family man, which I've striven to be. It's gonna

776
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,799
Speaker 4: be a good friend, it's gonna be a good husband. Uh,

777
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 4: And I was gonna be I was going to excel

778
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:11,360
Speaker 4: at whatever I did. I was not gonna be sorry.

779
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:14,840
Speaker 4: I was not gonna be late for work. I was

780
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 4: going to maintain a job, and I was gonna do

781
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:21,800
Speaker 4: something that nobody else could do. Wow, And I wanted

782
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 4: something that I could do like that. I tried, I

783
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 4: say tried the military. I was in the Guard signed

784
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 4: up in high school. UH went to and I saw

785
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 4: that as maybe a potential escape from me. But got

786
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 4: into forensics, and forensics took and h and it was

787
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 4: something that when when I started working, I had no education.

788
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:53,240
Speaker 4: I came into this backwards. So I started literally working

789
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 4: pushing a mop and a morgue while I was going

790
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:59,240
Speaker 4: to college. And it just so happened that the morgue

791
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,240
Speaker 4: that I was, the hospital I was working at, became

792
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 4: the morgue for the parish. They don't have counties in Louisiana,

793
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 4: became the morgue for the parish. Because the morgue for

794
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 4: the parish was so run down. It was actually sat

795
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 4: on the side of the old gallows, solid it was,

796
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 4: and the morgue was actually contained inside of the parish prison.

797
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 4: We had to walk into the prison every day to

798
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 4: do autopsies, and we did one thousand per year in

799
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 4: that little morgue, and so it was being repaired, and

800
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 4: so I became friends with the guy that was essentially

801
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 4: became my mentor, that was probably the finest forensic scientist

802
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,240
Speaker 4: I've ever known in my life. And I just started

803
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 4: showing up at autopsies, not getting paid for it. I'd

804
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 4: go to school full time, work at the hospital as

805
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 4: an orly, and then show up and go to autopsies.

806
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:51,840
Speaker 4: And I had a pathologist said, well, this guy's crazy

807
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 4: enough to hang around here with flies lighting on him,

808
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 4: and I'll just make him my scribe. And he made

809
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 4: me his scribe. I would sit there, he didn't have

810
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:02,240
Speaker 4: to come out of his clothes, and I would just write.

811
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,360
Speaker 4: And finally one day he says, you want to close?

812
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:08,360
Speaker 4: And I was like, what do you mean. I've been closing.

813
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 4: I've been mopping up. And he said, no, do you

814
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 4: want to close? And he handed me the needle and

815
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 4: he showed me how to sew a body up, and

816
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 4: then finally that evolved into do you want to open?

817
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:22,799
Speaker 4: You know, and I'll never forget the first time how

818
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:24,840
Speaker 4: terrified it was because I didn't know how much pressure

819
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:28,280
Speaker 4: to apply to do to do to do a standard

820
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:33,880
Speaker 4: why incision? And I did and found out that, you know, retrospectively,

821
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 4: the Morgue is the best classroom I ever sat in.

822
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 4: Still to this day, and I still I tell my

823
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:42,840
Speaker 4: students that at Jack State. You know, I'll say, you

824
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 4: know this is all find and good. You hear some

825
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 4: white haired old man, you know, pontificate every day to you.

826
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 4: The best classroom you'll ever go to is the Morgue

827
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 4: if you want to become an effective death investigator, because you.

828
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 3: Learn more there.

829
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 2: You learn more.

830
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 3: You know.

831
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:00,120
Speaker 4: It's it's like what you do in the military. There's

832
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 4: kind of a there's kind of a recipe, you know,

833
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 4: see one, do one, teach one, and medicine does that.

834
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 4: Medicine is not a lot different than the military. You know,

835
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 4: like procedurally, you you have to go through these steps.

836
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 4: It's the same thing in the Morgue. You see this

837
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 4: thing before you. There's a way to work the problem.

838
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 4: We're not sitting in a classroom, and by god, you

839
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 4: better do it right. And so I began to kind

840
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 4: of absorb, and so I just go to I'd go

841
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 4: to autopsies all the time. Then I started going scenes

842
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:36,320
Speaker 4: and I had two guys apply and quit within six

843
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:42,240
Speaker 4: months for an investigative position. I took the job and

844
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 4: they finally gave me the job to young kid who

845
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:50,720
Speaker 4: had no business doing it and stayed there for seven years.

846
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, and then that's incredible.

847
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 1: What was the visceral's shift between the Morgue and onseen

848
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:02,839
Speaker 1: Because you can still feel the energy on unseenes right

849
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:04,279
Speaker 1: that are relatively new.

850
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 3: Right.

851
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 1: Families, Yeah, family families, That's what I would.

852
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 4: Have made, families because you know, there's nothing like like

853
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 4: when I came in. When I came in, they they

854
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 4: it was at the height of crack hitting the street,

855
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:23,479
Speaker 4: so we had like there were a lot of dry

856
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 4: by shootings back then, more so than you hear about today.

857
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:29,920
Speaker 4: So it was nothing that I would go out and

858
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 4: I would do an examination on body and I do

859
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:33,760
Speaker 4: it in front of an audience about two hundred people

860
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 4: and they're all angry and and the dynamic of dealing

861
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 4: with families because the other part to the job of

862
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 4: the MDI is also notifying the families. And I've done

863
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 4: like two thousand of those in person over the course

864
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 4: of my career.

865
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 1: I've done one and it was the worst experience I've

866
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 1: ever had.

867
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, the first one I did. I still remember the

868
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 4: last one I did, and none of them were they

869
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 4: It's it's not like they get any better. There's no

870
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 4: flashes of joy you don't bring, you know, And I've

871
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 4: always said, it's like pulling a pin on grenade, throwing

872
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 4: the room, closing the door behind you. Just listen for

873
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 4: the boom and the screams, and that's It's like you

874
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 4: walk into somebody's family and there there's everything that was

875
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 4: before you and there's everything that's after you. And that

876
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 4: sounds horribly egocentric to say that, but that's that's. You're

877
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 4: a marker in time for these people. They might not

878
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 4: remember you, but that moment time. And I would submit

879
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 4: to anybody that's this listening to us right now, reflect

880
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 4: just for a moment when you were a little kid

881
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 4: and the first time someone that you loved or that

882
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 4: you knew died. And I tell you this, most people

883
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 4: and I find this very interesting. It goes to human psychology.

884
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 4: I think a great degree who we are as people.

885
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 4: I have people that can recall sound sites, they can

886
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:58,799
Speaker 4: remember the clothing they were wearing, they remember who told them,

887
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:03,760
Speaker 4: they remember what the response was. However, this is something

888
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:08,400
Speaker 4: interesting that I found out when you go to notify

889
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 4: somebody and you know, you knock at the door, you

890
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 4: badge them, they let you in. Of course, the question

891
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 4: is what's wrong? Have a seat? You inform them that

892
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 4: the loved one is dead? Did you know that? After

893
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 4: you have told them that that Most people, and this

894
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 4: is kind of obvious, but there's been a couple of

895
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 4: studies about it. Most people don't remember anything you say

896
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 4: after the first ten minutes. Yea, and to a person,

897
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 4: to a person, I would get a phone call the

898
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 4: next day. That's why I always had to leave a

899
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 4: phone number so that they contact me because I could.

900
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 4: They might ask questions about, you know, what happened. They

901
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:52,120
Speaker 4: always want to know where they are, where the body is,

902
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 4: and they want to know who did it. If it's

903
00:49:56,080 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 4: a homicide, If it's a suicide, they always believe it's homicide,

904
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 4: and we wind up. You know, in our world, we work,

905
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 4: we work all of the homicides, but we work more

906
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 4: suicides than we do homicides because police are not invested

907
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 4: in homicides, and many times suicides are. They're more challenging

908
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,600
Speaker 4: to investigate than even homicides.

909
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:23,440
Speaker 1: Well, usually there's no note, there's no nothing, there's no reason.

910
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: There's and you know, and and and what most people

911
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:31,000
Speaker 1: don't understand with annual gundaths, it's like sixty percent or

912
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:34,360
Speaker 1: more of annual gundaths are self inflicted gunshot wounds.

913
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:37,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a massive amount of people.

914
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it is.

915
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 4: And you don't unless somebody's famous, you know, unless the media, right,

916
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:49,399
Speaker 4: unless the media deems that this person has value, You're

917
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 4: never going to hear about it. That's why I always

918
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 4: look kind of give them the side eye anytime I

919
00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 4: see some media personality saying, we must address the we

920
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 4: must addressed the tragedy.

921
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:05,280
Speaker 3: Of suicide in our in our world. You're an asshole.

922
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're an asshole because if if you really wanted

923
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 4: to address that, you would truly have a conversation about

924
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:12,839
Speaker 4: it and talk about the numbers that are out there,

925
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 4: and not just when Robin Williams hangs itself or Philip

926
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 4: Seymour Hoffmann dies either of a drug od or it took.

927
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:21,879
Speaker 3: I don't know.

928
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 4: It's not going to change my life one way or another.

929
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:27,760
Speaker 4: But I know what does because I've stood over the bodies.

930
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 4: I've cut people down, you know, that have suspended themselves,

931
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:35,839
Speaker 4: and I've had to go out and tell families. And

932
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 4: you know, the media can bang that drum all they

933
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:42,359
Speaker 4: want to all day long, but it's a real it's

934
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 4: a and I you know, and and people do it

935
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 4: for all kinds of reasons.

936
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:50,400
Speaker 3: It's not just one thing, you know, and.

937
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 4: You it's a it's a real it's a real sadness

938
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:59,359
Speaker 4: that you bear witness to you because as an investigator,

939
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 4: you walk into environment and many times you're the only

940
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:04,879
Speaker 4: person in the room with the deceased that has taken

941
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 4: their own life. You know, people are all over homicides.

942
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:09,840
Speaker 4: You know, everybody wants to know. And yeah, it requires

943
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:11,279
Speaker 4: because things is going to go to court and all

944
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 4: that sort of stuff. But you're really, as an MDI,

945
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 4: you're the person that's bearing witness to the fact that

946
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:20,240
Speaker 4: this person ever even existed.

947
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:22,400
Speaker 3: Wow, that's heavy.

948
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:27,799
Speaker 4: And yeah, that's why I tell my kids. First off,

949
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 4: our working assumption is that all deaths are homicides until

950
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 4: proven otherwise. And we've heard that for years and years.

951
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 4: But I also tell them this, if you will step

952
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 4: back and take yourself out of this idea that about

953
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 4: forensic science and understand now almost in going back to antiquity,

954
00:52:56,200 --> 00:53:00,720
Speaker 4: you're a historian, because you're making note of a life

955
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 4: that has been lived that no one else will ever

956
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:06,359
Speaker 4: make note of. I've seen over the course of my career,

957
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:08,799
Speaker 4: I've seen some of them, as you know, being on

958
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 4: cold case squads and things like that. Over the years,

959
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 4: I've seen some of the most disrespectful narratives that you

960
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 4: can where people just kind of passively wrote things down.

961
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:21,759
Speaker 4: They didn't pay attention to detail, and it's like, if

962
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 4: I read this thing from thirty years ago, it's like,

963
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 4: I don't know anything about this person. I'm not saying

964
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:31,400
Speaker 4: I need to know the granular detail of their comings

965
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 4: and goings as a person, but just the fact that

966
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 4: they occupied the space, what was their life like, what

967
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:38,440
Speaker 4: was the environment like in that environment.

968
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:41,319
Speaker 3: I tell my kids that.

969
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:44,160
Speaker 4: Not only are your potential forensic scientists, you're going to

970
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:46,840
Speaker 4: be a historian, because literally, nowadays the world that we

971
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:51,480
Speaker 4: exist in with the digital world, you know, five hundred

972
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 4: years from now, somebody's actually going to be reading your report,

973
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 4: whether they're doing genealogy or whether they're working on a case.

974
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:00,840
Speaker 4: You're the only marker in time for that.

975
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:04,359
Speaker 1: That that I never thought about it like that. It's

976
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 1: such an awesome way to think about it, A tragic

977
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:13,760
Speaker 1: situation is that you're the generator of the final history

978
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:14,759
Speaker 1: of that individual.

979
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:17,760
Speaker 4: And listen, so many, so many times, Man, I failed.

980
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:20,719
Speaker 4: It took me a long time to learn that it

981
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:25,279
Speaker 4: really did. I failed miserably many times in documenting the

982
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:30,320
Speaker 4: life that had been lived. And you know, I wrestle

983
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:32,759
Speaker 4: with that many times. You know, I did I show

984
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 4: the due care that I should have showed at that moment, Tom,

985
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 4: Or was I worried about something else in my life

986
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 4: that was very temporal at that moment, Tom, Because you know,

987
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 4: you're you're on this when you brush up against death

988
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 4: and you inhabit this world, you're you're literally doing God's work.

989
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:56,879
Speaker 4: I mean, you're you're there from the perspective of you're

990
00:54:56,920 --> 00:55:03,240
Speaker 4: seeing things, and you're given the privilege of making note

991
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:07,280
Speaker 4: of a life that this person that may have taken

992
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:09,880
Speaker 4: their life, for instance, thought was no longer worth living.

993
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 4: They didn't feel like they had any value. Maybe their

994
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:16,200
Speaker 4: family even had transmitted that information to them that they

995
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:20,200
Speaker 4: that they didn't have any value. You know, But how

996
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 4: much value can you show? That's That's that's what you're

997
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:26,759
Speaker 4: going to be judged on at some point, Tom In

998
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:30,120
Speaker 4: my field. You know, if you did you honor that

999
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:32,440
Speaker 4: person with words that you wrote and the things that

1000
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:35,399
Speaker 4: that you said relative to their death, did there did

1001
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:38,120
Speaker 4: their death mean enough to you that you would conduct

1002
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:40,160
Speaker 4: conduct a thorough investigation.

1003
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:45,120
Speaker 1: You start counterintuitive though, too, because it's like there's an

1004
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 1: aspect of it that you want to keep it scientific.

1005
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:53,359
Speaker 1: But what you're saying, what you're saying, after what four

1006
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:59,000
Speaker 1: decades of doing this, you're you're looking at it as like,

1007
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:05,400
Speaker 1: there's this there's this deeper responsibility. There is that that

1008
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:11,320
Speaker 1: that is affiliated with this this this job, it's it's

1009
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:13,719
Speaker 1: it's more than a job, right, any anything I think

1010
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:17,000
Speaker 1: that's relative to death, there's more than it's more than

1011
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:20,600
Speaker 1: a job, right, because there's something, there's something sacred in

1012
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:22,880
Speaker 1: it in and of itself, Like you're saying, there's a

1013
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:26,319
Speaker 1: there's a connection to the individual in the days that

1014
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:30,080
Speaker 1: they led pretty leading up to whatever the thing that

1015
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:34,120
Speaker 1: that brought them to their demise, and there's something there's

1016
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:37,960
Speaker 1: a spiritual aspect in that as well too. So as

1017
00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:41,319
Speaker 1: you went through these transitions and you got to that

1018
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:44,040
Speaker 1: place where you you described that your wife had to

1019
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:47,560
Speaker 1: almost take care of you in an adolescent capacity, how

1020
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:49,759
Speaker 1: did you come back out of that and begin to

1021
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 1: restructure the way you engaged.

1022
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 2: In this this? What is it?

1023
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:00,640
Speaker 1: There's a there's a there's a there's got to be

1024
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 1: some ethereal term for what it is like you're you're

1025
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:10,560
Speaker 1: carrying the You're you're co mingling the tragic nature of

1026
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:14,040
Speaker 1: its of the soul's ending, but you're also preserving it.

1027
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:17,880
Speaker 1: Like you said in the document, of the historical record

1028
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:21,960
Speaker 1: of that person existed and they were relevant in what

1029
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:24,120
Speaker 1: in some capacity.

1030
00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:26,480
Speaker 3: Uh it was.

1031
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:30,080
Speaker 4: It was a very long road for me, and still,

1032
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:33,440
Speaker 4: you know, I'll have I'll have those moments, you know

1033
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 4: where the last time I left the Emmy's office. I've

1034
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 4: told the story many times, but the last time I

1035
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 4: left the Emmy's office was in an ambulance and that

1036
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:45,000
Speaker 4: was in Atlanta. I was talking to one of my

1037
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:49,200
Speaker 4: childhood friends that was a homicide detective in in Atlanta.

1038
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:53,240
Speaker 4: We'd gone out to eat lunch together and I'd had

1039
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 4: been having the same heart attack for about six months,

1040
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:58,480
Speaker 4: and I'd go to the emergency room They'd say, you're okay,

1041
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:03,600
Speaker 4: and every single day I felt like the walls were

1042
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:05,560
Speaker 4: closing only and it had been happening for a while,

1043
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:12,200
Speaker 4: I had tremors. I couldn't focus at all. It had

1044
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 4: affected my speech to a certain degree. I found myself

1045
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:19,520
Speaker 4: stumbling over my words. Lightheadedness and dizziness. I'd gotten I'd

1046
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:25,800
Speaker 4: run a jog, and still there was no alleviating it.

1047
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:29,040
Speaker 4: And here's the thing. I should have known, well, I

1048
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:34,880
Speaker 4: would have, should have, could have. But the days that

1049
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:38,400
Speaker 4: when I would get off work for the week, you know,

1050
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 4: when I would be done. When I went to get

1051
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 4: in my car, the only thing I could think about

1052
00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:46,280
Speaker 4: was I got to be back here in forty eight hours.

1053
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:48,640
Speaker 4: And I would spend the entire time that I was

1054
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:50,600
Speaker 4: off when I should have been thinking about my wife

1055
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:51,560
Speaker 4: and my children.

1056
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:53,320
Speaker 3: I've got to go back. I've got to go back.

1057
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 4: I could take a two week vacation and there would

1058
00:58:56,600 --> 00:58:58,880
Speaker 4: not be a single day that I would not sit

1059
00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:03,320
Speaker 4: there and utter dress of going back to work. And

1060
00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:08,560
Speaker 4: I was a senior investigator, I was a supervisor. I

1061
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:12,400
Speaker 4: had the chief medical examiner who's dead and gone now.

1062
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:14,320
Speaker 4: But he walked up to me and said, we understand

1063
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:16,800
Speaker 4: you're having trouble, but you have to understand everybody here

1064
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:18,960
Speaker 4: looks up to you. You got to suck it. Up

1065
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:23,440
Speaker 4: and deal with it, and so you feel himmed in.

1066
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:26,040
Speaker 4: And I've done all this stuff and this is my

1067
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:29,240
Speaker 4: own vanity. I've done all this stuff nationally, like i'd

1068
00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:35,160
Speaker 4: help help design the national standards for medical legal death investigators.

1069
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:35,520
Speaker 3: I was on.

1070
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:39,880
Speaker 4: A federal task force called the Milwaukee Task Force, and

1071
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:42,959
Speaker 4: there was twelve of us from like La, Seattle, New York,

1072
00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:47,160
Speaker 4: d C, Atlanta, New Orleans, Dallas. I could go through

1073
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:49,160
Speaker 4: the Chicago, I go through the whole list, and we

1074
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:54,800
Speaker 4: came together with the seminal document through NIJ that said

1075
00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:57,240
Speaker 4: this is what you need need to have in order

1076
00:59:57,360 --> 00:59:59,920
Speaker 4: to be an effective medical legal death investigator, because no

1077
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:02,840
Speaker 4: nobody had ever codified it before. I was very proud

1078
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:07,160
Speaker 4: of that, you know, and so people in that sense

1079
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:11,120
Speaker 4: did look up to me. But you know, that stuff,

1080
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:14,560
Speaker 4: when compared to the price that you pay physically and

1081
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:19,120
Speaker 4: mentally and also spiritually and from a familial standpoint, ain't

1082
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:23,800
Speaker 4: worth gunpowder to blow at hell. It's really not. And

1083
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:25,640
Speaker 4: it's easy for an old man to sit back and

1084
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 4: say that to some young hungry investigator that wants to

1085
01:00:29,120 --> 01:00:31,040
Speaker 4: prove themselves and do all this stuff in the field,

1086
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:34,040
Speaker 4: and say that they're resolute and they don't mind being

1087
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:36,640
Speaker 4: around the horror. They don't mind bearing witness those things

1088
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:39,760
Speaker 4: that other people would flee from. You can say that

1089
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:43,000
Speaker 4: to your blue in the face, brother, it ain't gonna work.

1090
01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 4: It's just not because I was that person. And so

1091
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:51,440
Speaker 4: when my wife finally got that remnant of what was

1092
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:55,280
Speaker 4: left of me, I was a babbling idiot. I really was.

1093
01:00:56,240 --> 01:01:00,840
Speaker 4: The psychiatrist that saw me would have been in five,

1094
01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:04,320
Speaker 4: I think four or five, two, four or five. She

1095
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:09,880
Speaker 4: had done her residency at the VA in Seattle with

1096
01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:12,120
Speaker 4: Vietnam vests. And she had told me at that point

1097
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:13,840
Speaker 4: in time, and this is before you heard a lot

1098
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:16,840
Speaker 4: about PTSD, before it really hit, you know, the big

1099
01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:18,720
Speaker 4: splash with it, and she said, you're the worst case

1100
01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:22,000
Speaker 4: of PTSD i've seen since Vietnam. Now, now all I

1101
01:01:22,080 --> 01:01:25,080
Speaker 4: could form out of my mouth, and this is really pathetic,

1102
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:30,200
Speaker 4: was work work. You know, I want to go back

1103
01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:34,400
Speaker 4: to work, that thing that had been burrowing under my

1104
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:37,080
Speaker 4: skin for all this period of time. And she finally

1105
01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:38,960
Speaker 4: looked at me and her name was doctor Row. I'll

1106
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:42,600
Speaker 4: never forget her. It's a little Indian lady. And she said,

1107
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:46,160
Speaker 4: mister Morgan, she said, if if you attempt to go

1108
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:49,040
Speaker 4: back to work. I will have you judicially committed. And

1109
01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:53,919
Speaker 4: it was at that moment time that I had this

1110
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:58,800
Speaker 4: that that that identity that I had, and my identity

1111
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:01,800
Speaker 4: was a death investigation or that was it. Isn't that pathetic?

1112
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:05,560
Speaker 4: You know that's pathetic. That was that was my identity.

1113
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:07,440
Speaker 2: I've seen it.

1114
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:11,560
Speaker 1: We experienced the same thing in our world, right, Guys

1115
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:15,760
Speaker 1: go in, they get involved, they get hooked on that whatever.

1116
01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:18,439
Speaker 1: You know, it's not adrenaline, it's deeper than that. It's

1117
01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:22,360
Speaker 1: it's you feel you're serving something that's at a higher order.

1118
01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:29,600
Speaker 1: And regardless of how it's physiologically destroying you as well

1119
01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:33,360
Speaker 1: as emotionally and spiritually, you you can't pull out. You

1120
01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:35,760
Speaker 1: just keep going and going and going, and tell you're

1121
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:40,320
Speaker 1: like where you hit. You're nonverbal in most cases, and

1122
01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:46,080
Speaker 1: your emotional construct is relative to the job itself and

1123
01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:50,560
Speaker 1: only itself. And I you know the the the I

1124
01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:56,120
Speaker 1: I think like the number one greatest challenge with all

1125
01:02:56,120 --> 01:02:59,960
Speaker 1: of that is is it destroys that send the genuine

1126
01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:04,160
Speaker 1: sensation of what intimacy is, right, because there's there's an

1127
01:03:04,200 --> 01:03:10,160
Speaker 1: intimacy and death and that seems to override the natural

1128
01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:13,880
Speaker 1: intimacy that is the most fulfilling, which is in your relationships.

1129
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:18,120
Speaker 4: And so yeah, yeah, I got to tell you so

1130
01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:21,040
Speaker 4: just kind of a little slice of life from my world,

1131
01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:26,040
Speaker 4: and people might be really, have you ever seen have

1132
01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:29,120
Speaker 4: you ever seen great apes that you know, like they

1133
01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:32,360
Speaker 4: do the where they're in the jungle and they're they're

1134
01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:34,680
Speaker 4: filming these apes, you know, and they're taking care of

1135
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:37,880
Speaker 4: one another and and they're sitting there and they're picking

1136
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:42,160
Speaker 4: knits out of each other. Yeah, we do that in

1137
01:03:42,240 --> 01:03:45,560
Speaker 4: medical legal death investigation only. I'll give you an example.

1138
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:48,720
Speaker 4: It's like, because we're a very small group of people,

1139
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:52,240
Speaker 4: we're not like cops where our world is completely different,

1140
01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:55,160
Speaker 4: all right, because we're around literally death. We're not getting

1141
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 4: kitty cats out of trees, we're not finding lost children,

1142
01:03:57,880 --> 01:03:59,480
Speaker 4: and we're not having.

1143
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:01,800
Speaker 2: Right now the winds.

1144
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:06,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, so we would if we were going to go somewhere,

1145
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:11,280
Speaker 4: we would ask one of our colleagues smell my hair,

1146
01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:16,640
Speaker 4: and because we'd been out on a dcomp and we

1147
01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:20,200
Speaker 4: would if we had to go with regular people. Yeah,

1148
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:22,640
Speaker 4: we didn't want to be offensive any way, and we

1149
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:26,360
Speaker 4: would smell each other. And that's a real weird behavior.

1150
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:31,120
Speaker 4: When I used to get home from work. God bless

1151
01:04:31,160 --> 01:04:31,600
Speaker 4: my wife.

1152
01:04:31,640 --> 01:04:32,400
Speaker 3: I love that woman.

1153
01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:38,440
Speaker 2: I swear, yeah, God bless your wife for helping you.

1154
01:04:38,560 --> 01:04:41,200
Speaker 4: She would show up at the back door of our

1155
01:04:41,240 --> 01:04:45,800
Speaker 4: house and she would hold me on stoop and she'd say,

1156
01:04:45,920 --> 01:04:49,720
Speaker 4: did you have d COOMP today? And she's got kids

1157
01:04:49,720 --> 01:04:54,120
Speaker 4: in the house, my kids, yeah, And I'd say no,

1158
01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:57,240
Speaker 4: and she'd say, come here, let me smell you. Because

1159
01:04:57,280 --> 01:04:59,400
Speaker 4: it's not just the fact that you had gone that

1160
01:04:59,480 --> 01:04:59,920
Speaker 4: you had.

1161
01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:02,320
Speaker 3: Not gone out of one. You're around the environment.

1162
01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:05,240
Speaker 4: And so she's the one that's you know, and she'd

1163
01:05:05,240 --> 01:05:07,880
Speaker 4: say take them off, and I'd have to take my

1164
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:10,560
Speaker 4: clothes off the door. And and most, you know, most

1165
01:05:10,560 --> 01:05:14,919
Speaker 4: other married couples don't. They don't have that stripping down.

1166
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:17,120
Speaker 2: You're not You're not it. You know, you're not going through.

1167
01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:19,360
Speaker 3: This is not stripping down.

1168
01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:23,320
Speaker 2: You're going through your dcon process.

1169
01:05:23,960 --> 01:05:28,240
Speaker 4: And that's that's something that regularly happened, you know, and

1170
01:05:28,240 --> 01:05:32,320
Speaker 4: and it affects you in every and everything. And a

1171
01:05:32,320 --> 01:05:34,280
Speaker 4: lot of this is the PTSD that comes through too,

1172
01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:35,200
Speaker 4: because it's like.

1173
01:05:35,120 --> 01:05:37,320
Speaker 3: When you.

1174
01:05:37,520 --> 01:05:40,520
Speaker 4: Like, if if my wife and I were to and

1175
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:43,400
Speaker 4: I avoided Atlanta, that was my last stop in my career.

1176
01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:45,280
Speaker 4: I never still to this day, I don't like to

1177
01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:48,120
Speaker 4: go to Atlanta because when I go to Atlanta, I

1178
01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:52,920
Speaker 4: don't I don't see Atlanta from the perspective that everybody

1179
01:05:52,920 --> 01:05:55,480
Speaker 4: else does, Like we'll be going down the road and uh,

1180
01:05:55,800 --> 01:05:58,120
Speaker 4: you know, and just spontaneously it'll spark me.

1181
01:05:58,120 --> 01:06:01,120
Speaker 2: I had that case here, I had that case exactly.

1182
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:01,880
Speaker 3: Wow.

1183
01:06:02,120 --> 01:06:05,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, on this corner, I had a homeless guy over here,

1184
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:08,760
Speaker 4: I had someone you know that a motor vehicle accent,

1185
01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:11,400
Speaker 4: or I had suicide here, or we didn't find this

1186
01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:13,720
Speaker 4: person for three months. They were in that house. I

1187
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:17,200
Speaker 4: crawled under that house. Everywhere you go, it's populated by that.

1188
01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:18,200
Speaker 3: Wow.

1189
01:06:18,520 --> 01:06:21,920
Speaker 4: And people, you know, people will always ask me because

1190
01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:24,080
Speaker 4: I'm around the dead. And this gets back into this

1191
01:06:24,160 --> 01:06:28,040
Speaker 4: kind of weird world that people had this perception of

1192
01:06:28,080 --> 01:06:31,360
Speaker 4: with dead. And it's like they always one of the

1193
01:06:31,360 --> 01:06:33,520
Speaker 4: big questions, you know that people that have never been

1194
01:06:33,560 --> 01:06:35,360
Speaker 4: around death, they always want to ask, you know, have

1195
01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:39,760
Speaker 4: you ever seen ghost? And it's like, no, now, I've

1196
01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:44,520
Speaker 4: never seen ghost. You know, I'm haunted by events. I'm

1197
01:06:44,520 --> 01:06:49,160
Speaker 4: haunted by the living, you know. I'm haunted by the

1198
01:06:49,280 --> 01:06:55,000
Speaker 4: daughter who I was talking to outside of her dad's house.

1199
01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:59,480
Speaker 4: The last time they talked was three months earlier, and

1200
01:06:59,520 --> 01:07:03,240
Speaker 4: they fall but she came over the house and his

1201
01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:05,480
Speaker 4: body looked like it was moving across the floor because

1202
01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:07,760
Speaker 4: he had maggots all over him. And she fell on

1203
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:10,800
Speaker 4: the floor, hugged his body. And as I'm interviewing her,

1204
01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:12,880
Speaker 4: she's got maggots crawling in her hair and she's got

1205
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:16,280
Speaker 4: deep hop fluid on her face. That's that's the kind

1206
01:07:16,320 --> 01:07:19,760
Speaker 4: of thing I'm haunted by, you know, and all of us,

1207
01:07:19,800 --> 01:07:22,160
Speaker 4: all of us, you know, we all have those little stories,

1208
01:07:22,280 --> 01:07:25,120
Speaker 4: you know, that are that are part and parcel of

1209
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:28,440
Speaker 4: you know, kind of documenting this this journey that we're on.

1210
01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:31,760
Speaker 4: There's really and I know that you guys in your

1211
01:07:31,760 --> 01:07:36,960
Speaker 4: community you have the same the same feeling with this

1212
01:07:37,160 --> 01:07:40,920
Speaker 4: in since that who else you going to talk to

1213
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:44,840
Speaker 4: about this that can identify with it? Because nobody can

1214
01:07:45,120 --> 01:07:47,880
Speaker 4: understand the depth and breadth of it. Most of the time.

1215
01:07:49,080 --> 01:07:51,240
Speaker 4: You might catch a spark from a couple of people,

1216
01:07:51,400 --> 01:07:53,760
Speaker 4: but nobody wants to hear you whin about it either.

1217
01:07:53,920 --> 01:07:55,600
Speaker 4: And that's the other thing you have to fight about,

1218
01:07:55,720 --> 01:07:58,200
Speaker 4: particularly as a man. You know, you sit here and say, well,

1219
01:07:58,200 --> 01:08:00,560
Speaker 4: nobody wants to hear me, bitch about this, there's hearing

1220
01:08:00,600 --> 01:08:03,360
Speaker 4: about it? And how much of a man am I

1221
01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:06,280
Speaker 4: that I can't just deal with it? And Sally forth,

1222
01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:08,360
Speaker 4: you know, set my face like flint and going into

1223
01:08:08,440 --> 01:08:10,400
Speaker 4: the storm. Well, brother, I've been setting my face like

1224
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:13,040
Speaker 4: flint my entire life. Yeah, you know, at some point

1225
01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:14,800
Speaker 4: in time, you got to back off on the throttle.

1226
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:19,200
Speaker 4: I went through three therapists before I came to one

1227
01:08:19,360 --> 01:08:21,680
Speaker 4: that happened to be an old Vietnam Vet that had

1228
01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:25,040
Speaker 4: got in PhD in psychology first, who had no idea.

1229
01:08:25,439 --> 01:08:29,240
Speaker 4: I started telling them the nightmares. I was having recurrent

1230
01:08:29,320 --> 01:08:34,759
Speaker 4: nightmare being surrounded by decomposing bodies floating on a barge

1231
01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:36,840
Speaker 4: that had cut loose on the Mississippi River and I

1232
01:08:36,880 --> 01:08:38,880
Speaker 4: was stuck to the barge and the bodies were all

1233
01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:42,040
Speaker 4: over me, and you know, the therapist would sit there,

1234
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:44,479
Speaker 4: you know, like this. And finally I wound up with

1235
01:08:44,520 --> 01:08:47,360
Speaker 4: a guy that and what he taught me to do,

1236
01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:49,640
Speaker 4: and it's something I hated to do when I was

1237
01:08:49,680 --> 01:08:50,360
Speaker 4: in high school.

1238
01:08:50,479 --> 01:08:52,599
Speaker 3: I hated that teacher that would say, okay, guys, we're

1239
01:08:52,600 --> 01:08:53,360
Speaker 3: going to journal.

1240
01:08:54,000 --> 01:08:55,520
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.

1241
01:08:55,600 --> 01:08:58,040
Speaker 4: Well I started writing and it turned into a memoir

1242
01:08:58,240 --> 01:09:00,280
Speaker 4: because I was going to burn it. I was gonna

1243
01:09:00,280 --> 01:09:04,360
Speaker 4: burn it. And uh I wrote that thing. I guess

1244
01:09:04,439 --> 01:09:07,080
Speaker 4: back in twelve, I sat in a cabin up in

1245
01:09:07,080 --> 01:09:09,559
Speaker 4: the mountains and while I was working as a as

1246
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:14,960
Speaker 4: a teacher and as a college professor instructor, and I just, uh,

1247
01:09:16,080 --> 01:09:19,160
Speaker 4: I bled on the keyboard and it was a big

1248
01:09:19,240 --> 01:09:24,479
Speaker 4: purgative kind of event for me. And you know, it

1249
01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:28,080
Speaker 4: helped me, I think to a great degree. There was

1250
01:09:28,080 --> 01:09:30,640
Speaker 4: still see you still don't you know. I'd still I

1251
01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:33,559
Speaker 4: still couldn't go to Walmart, you know, and be surrounded

1252
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:35,760
Speaker 4: by people I don't know. I didn't want to go

1253
01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:38,840
Speaker 4: to restaurants because I'd be out of control. I feel like,

1254
01:09:38,920 --> 01:09:40,639
Speaker 4: you know, I was going to be murdered there anywhere

1255
01:09:40,640 --> 01:09:44,000
Speaker 4: I went I had. I liked teaching because I could

1256
01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:45,840
Speaker 4: be up to the lectern and I had a view

1257
01:09:46,160 --> 01:09:48,280
Speaker 4: all over the classroom. I could leave and run back

1258
01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:50,200
Speaker 4: to my office and lock the door and sit there.

1259
01:09:52,600 --> 01:09:54,840
Speaker 4: I could live in that kind of isolated environment. But

1260
01:09:54,920 --> 01:09:57,600
Speaker 4: you know what's really weird is that some of the

1261
01:09:57,600 --> 01:09:59,680
Speaker 4: best therapy sessions I ever had was just talking to

1262
01:09:59,680 --> 01:10:01,160
Speaker 4: myself in front of my classes.

1263
01:10:01,920 --> 01:10:03,400
Speaker 3: I bet you know that.

1264
01:10:03,640 --> 01:10:06,120
Speaker 4: And just teaching them the basics of forensics, and I

1265
01:10:06,160 --> 01:10:09,000
Speaker 4: found that I was kind of purging myself along the way.

1266
01:10:09,479 --> 01:10:12,560
Speaker 1: That's I feel the same way when I when I

1267
01:10:12,880 --> 01:10:16,640
Speaker 1: got a client that I'm coaching for performing stuff and

1268
01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:19,720
Speaker 1: it's you know, there's there's some type of emotional hang up,

1269
01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:22,679
Speaker 1: or there's some trauma that they're trying to process or whatever.

1270
01:10:23,240 --> 01:10:26,800
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's I'm I'm talking through you know,

1271
01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:30,840
Speaker 1: the greatest references. Well, I had a really difficult time

1272
01:10:30,960 --> 01:10:33,240
Speaker 1: with this thing. This is what I kind of thought about,

1273
01:10:33,320 --> 01:10:35,800
Speaker 1: are you thinking, you know, and you can you work

1274
01:10:35,960 --> 01:10:40,040
Speaker 1: through it as you're you know, integrating the techniques that

1275
01:10:40,080 --> 01:10:42,320
Speaker 1: got you in the situation in the first place, right,

1276
01:10:42,360 --> 01:10:45,560
Speaker 1: And and it puts it drops that layer of humanity

1277
01:10:46,040 --> 01:10:49,559
Speaker 1: on what otherwise seems to be this sterile, kind of

1278
01:10:51,479 --> 01:10:56,599
Speaker 1: lifeless uh existence, right and and and and I just

1279
01:10:56,640 --> 01:11:00,320
Speaker 1: think that's that's it's such a uh like you said,

1280
01:11:00,320 --> 01:11:03,519
Speaker 1: it's it's so cathartic in so many days and and

1281
01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:04,880
Speaker 1: that's what you're looking for.

1282
01:11:06,080 --> 01:11:07,559
Speaker 2: Let's just pivot real quick.

1283
01:11:07,760 --> 01:11:11,880
Speaker 1: And I just really want to get your perspective on this,

1284
01:11:12,479 --> 01:11:17,080
Speaker 1: you know, phenomenal you know, I don't know, maybe phenomenological

1285
01:11:17,120 --> 01:11:22,080
Speaker 1: obsession with crime stories, death shows, psych you know, psychopathic killers,

1286
01:11:22,680 --> 01:11:29,000
Speaker 1: and in the consciousness of a society that now is

1287
01:11:29,360 --> 01:11:34,920
Speaker 1: somehow holding this form of entertainment as well as because

1288
01:11:34,920 --> 01:11:37,880
Speaker 1: I as we started out with Epstein, there's almost like

1289
01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:44,200
Speaker 1: a voyeurism with the the the magnitude of destruction that

1290
01:11:44,280 --> 01:11:48,200
Speaker 1: he left in his wake, Like we're the humans are

1291
01:11:48,439 --> 01:11:52,600
Speaker 1: enticed by this? Why do you think that is the

1292
01:11:52,640 --> 01:11:55,840
Speaker 1: way it is within the human consciousness? And then what

1293
01:11:55,880 --> 01:12:00,280
Speaker 1: are what are the negative aspects that can really uh

1294
01:12:01,080 --> 01:12:04,400
Speaker 1: kind of what it's almost it'll be a residue that

1295
01:12:04,600 --> 01:12:05,920
Speaker 1: exists within your soul.

1296
01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:14,040
Speaker 4: First off, I've always people have asked me about true

1297
01:12:14,120 --> 01:12:16,439
Speaker 4: crime and you know what I feel like as a

1298
01:12:16,720 --> 01:12:22,880
Speaker 4: forensic scientist being involved in it. Part of me, the

1299
01:12:22,920 --> 01:12:25,800
Speaker 4: little boy in me, has always felt as though that

1300
01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:30,599
Speaker 4: the true crime genre that's out there right now, those

1301
01:12:30,640 --> 01:12:33,439
Speaker 4: are our modern ghost stories, you know, from when we

1302
01:12:33,439 --> 01:12:36,880
Speaker 4: were kids and we'd sit around a campfire and we

1303
01:12:36,920 --> 01:12:40,680
Speaker 4: want wanted to be scared. There's always something within humans

1304
01:12:41,320 --> 01:12:43,799
Speaker 4: where we want to be be scared.

1305
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:47,120
Speaker 3: And it's not just true crime.

1306
01:12:49,960 --> 01:12:52,120
Speaker 4: It's a story of heroes that are overcoming you know,

1307
01:12:52,120 --> 01:12:53,639
Speaker 4: they're coming face to face with death.

1308
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:56,760
Speaker 2: I was just thinking that for me it was war stories.

1309
01:12:56,360 --> 01:12:57,200
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, me too.

1310
01:12:58,240 --> 01:13:02,559
Speaker 4: My family distantly is related to Audie Murphy and so

1311
01:13:02,720 --> 01:13:06,560
Speaker 4: like I don't know many Yeah, I think my grandmother

1312
01:13:06,760 --> 01:13:09,640
Speaker 4: and his mother were both Killians, okay, and so that

1313
01:13:09,760 --> 01:13:17,200
Speaker 4: was their last name. And I was always fascinated by

1314
01:13:17,320 --> 01:13:22,160
Speaker 4: Audie and any number of the other people, particularly in

1315
01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:25,320
Speaker 4: the military world, you know, because I got enough little

1316
01:13:25,360 --> 01:13:27,840
Speaker 4: boy in me. I'm still fascinated by him to this day.

1317
01:13:29,360 --> 01:13:32,040
Speaker 4: I love to hear his stories and overcoming those things.

1318
01:13:35,200 --> 01:13:38,599
Speaker 4: There's a part of us that I have found and

1319
01:13:40,240 --> 01:13:46,559
Speaker 4: that is quite quite telling. I think about unsolved things

1320
01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:52,400
Speaker 4: where I was never good at jigsaw puzzles. I hated

1321
01:13:52,439 --> 01:13:55,240
Speaker 4: jigsaw puzzles. I didn't have the patient for them. Patients

1322
01:13:55,240 --> 01:13:57,080
Speaker 4: for him. There are a lot of people that love them.

1323
01:13:58,160 --> 01:14:01,200
Speaker 4: The puzzles that I always put together were a real

1324
01:14:01,240 --> 01:14:03,960
Speaker 4: broad tapestry, and I think that some people see that

1325
01:14:04,840 --> 01:14:07,120
Speaker 4: is there something, is there some thread that's been left

1326
01:14:07,200 --> 01:14:10,400
Speaker 4: unpulled out there that maybe they're going to be the

1327
01:14:10,439 --> 01:14:12,400
Speaker 4: person that's going to have the lottery tickets that's going

1328
01:14:12,479 --> 01:14:15,200
Speaker 4: to pull that thread and there will be a reveal

1329
01:14:15,280 --> 01:14:18,160
Speaker 4: to it. There's that element, but then you've got the

1330
01:14:18,240 --> 01:14:21,759
Speaker 4: other the other elements out there. I mentioned Ted Bundy

1331
01:14:21,880 --> 01:14:24,880
Speaker 4: a few months ago. Well, how many more damn times

1332
01:14:24,880 --> 01:14:29,400
Speaker 4: can we talk about Ted Bundy? I don't know, I

1333
01:14:29,439 --> 01:14:29,800
Speaker 4: don't know.

1334
01:14:29,880 --> 01:14:33,160
Speaker 2: I mean each and each generation, each new generation.

1335
01:14:32,840 --> 01:14:34,400
Speaker 3: Each new generation. You're right.

1336
01:14:34,479 --> 01:14:38,200
Speaker 4: And ed Gean, you know, I mean ed Gean the

1337
01:14:38,200 --> 01:14:41,760
Speaker 4: butcher Plainfield. They just had to big splash with a

1338
01:14:41,840 --> 01:14:45,360
Speaker 4: television show you know about him that was back in

1339
01:14:45,400 --> 01:14:48,240
Speaker 4: the fifties. Dude, you know, I mean again, you know,

1340
01:14:48,280 --> 01:14:50,640
Speaker 4: you go Jack the Ripper. You know, I did an

1341
01:14:50,640 --> 01:14:53,920
Speaker 4: episode on Jack the Ripper because they found the shawl

1342
01:14:54,080 --> 01:14:58,400
Speaker 4: that allegedly had seminal deposition on it that was connected

1343
01:14:58,439 --> 01:14:59,920
Speaker 4: to this guy that had always been on the lif

1344
01:15:01,600 --> 01:15:04,720
Speaker 4: Uh that was Polish Polish yew Uh. That was a

1345
01:15:04,760 --> 01:15:06,479
Speaker 4: barber or something in London, right.

1346
01:15:07,200 --> 01:15:07,439
Speaker 1: Uh.

1347
01:15:07,479 --> 01:15:10,200
Speaker 4: People are always fascinated by that. That is an unknown

1348
01:15:10,360 --> 01:15:15,880
Speaker 4: but it's you know, it's very very salacious. I don't know.

1349
01:15:16,200 --> 01:15:18,760
Speaker 4: But here's kind of the curious thing. I go to

1350
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:21,519
Speaker 4: Crime Con every year and I which is the big

1351
01:15:23,240 --> 01:15:25,120
Speaker 4: you know people hear of comic Con. You know that

1352
01:15:25,160 --> 01:15:27,200
Speaker 4: happens down in San Diego. That was like the first

1353
01:15:27,200 --> 01:15:34,600
Speaker 4: of these con kind of shows, and I've spoken extensively

1354
01:15:34,720 --> 01:15:35,000
Speaker 4: these things.

1355
01:15:35,040 --> 01:15:35,920
Speaker 3: I'm going back this year.

1356
01:15:37,880 --> 01:15:42,280
Speaker 4: The thing that kind of separates crime con apart from

1357
01:15:42,320 --> 01:15:45,920
Speaker 4: everything else that I've done. When I first started going,

1358
01:15:47,479 --> 01:15:49,080
Speaker 4: I didn't go the first year. The first year was

1359
01:15:49,080 --> 01:15:52,360
Speaker 4: in Indianapolis. I think I can't remember where the second

1360
01:15:52,439 --> 01:15:54,920
Speaker 4: year was. Anyway, we oh Nashville. We were in Nashville,

1361
01:15:55,600 --> 01:15:59,679
Speaker 4: and I saw something right that I didn't expect to see.

1362
01:16:02,720 --> 01:16:05,599
Speaker 4: Nancy Grace had a table you know where she set up.

1363
01:16:05,640 --> 01:16:07,160
Speaker 4: If you've never been to one of these things, they

1364
01:16:07,200 --> 01:16:09,879
Speaker 4: set up, you know, the stars of the thing, set.

1365
01:16:09,720 --> 01:16:10,719
Speaker 3: Up tables, booze.

1366
01:16:10,760 --> 01:16:12,559
Speaker 4: If you will, you can go by and get a

1367
01:16:12,560 --> 01:16:20,000
Speaker 4: picture made, get an autograph. And I agreed because I'd

1368
01:16:20,040 --> 01:16:21,840
Speaker 4: known Nancy for a long time. She was a prosecutor

1369
01:16:21,840 --> 01:16:23,880
Speaker 4: in Atlanta and I was death investigator with the Emmy

1370
01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:27,040
Speaker 4: there and I would appear on her show when she

1371
01:16:27,200 --> 01:16:30,280
Speaker 4: was still back on HLN, and I was going to

1372
01:16:30,320 --> 01:16:34,040
Speaker 4: be on a couple of her panels. We went to

1373
01:16:34,160 --> 01:16:36,360
Speaker 4: the first time that she was going to be at

1374
01:16:36,360 --> 01:16:42,120
Speaker 4: her table, which she had fans showing up, and I

1375
01:16:42,120 --> 01:16:47,920
Speaker 4: saw something that broke my heart. And it's hard to

1376
01:16:47,920 --> 01:16:52,400
Speaker 4: break my heart. There were people there that wanted to

1377
01:16:52,439 --> 01:16:57,439
Speaker 4: meet her, but because of the celebrity part of it,

1378
01:16:57,479 --> 01:17:00,360
Speaker 4: But there were equal amounts of people that were there.

1379
01:17:00,400 --> 01:17:04,040
Speaker 4: And this this line went forever. There were people that

1380
01:17:04,080 --> 01:17:06,960
Speaker 4: had paid thousands of dollars to travel to Nashville. One

1381
01:17:07,640 --> 01:17:10,680
Speaker 4: lady came with her daughters, drove all the way from

1382
01:17:10,720 --> 01:17:16,040
Speaker 4: Seattle to Nashville. WHOA And what I was seeing were

1383
01:17:16,120 --> 01:17:20,040
Speaker 4: these people that had stacks of files that were this thick.

1384
01:17:20,520 --> 01:17:22,120
Speaker 4: And I had a lady. I was just kind of

1385
01:17:22,120 --> 01:17:24,479
Speaker 4: standing outside the line. They knew my voice because they

1386
01:17:24,479 --> 01:17:26,760
Speaker 4: would hear me on her show. You're Joe Scott And

1387
01:17:26,800 --> 01:17:29,080
Speaker 4: I was like, yes, ma'am, I am. How are you today?

1388
01:17:29,240 --> 01:17:31,599
Speaker 4: You know where are you from? My wife was working

1389
01:17:31,600 --> 01:17:37,840
Speaker 4: the line with me, and she said, in tears, can

1390
01:17:37,880 --> 01:17:40,120
Speaker 4: you please give this to Nancy?

1391
01:17:40,560 --> 01:17:44,200
Speaker 3: And I was like, what the hell? What is this?

1392
01:17:44,360 --> 01:17:44,559
Speaker 3: You know?

1393
01:17:44,720 --> 01:17:48,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, my sister was raped and murdered in nineteen seventy

1394
01:17:48,320 --> 01:17:50,200
Speaker 4: four in Dallas and the cops that never helped us,

1395
01:17:50,240 --> 01:17:52,200
Speaker 4: can you please help us? And the next thing I

1396
01:17:52,240 --> 01:17:54,680
Speaker 4: knew I looked down the line. It was like a

1397
01:17:54,840 --> 01:17:57,800
Speaker 4: freaking scene out of a movie. It's like every third

1398
01:17:57,840 --> 01:18:01,080
Speaker 4: person had a stack of files in their hand. I

1399
01:18:01,120 --> 01:18:03,920
Speaker 4: was like, you got to be kidding me. And there

1400
01:18:03,920 --> 01:18:07,800
Speaker 4: were these people that just wanted hope and you're not

1401
01:18:07,840 --> 01:18:11,760
Speaker 4: going to get that where you're dressing up like you know,

1402
01:18:11,880 --> 01:18:15,080
Speaker 4: bugs Bunny and going to crimp to comic Con. You

1403
01:18:15,120 --> 01:18:18,439
Speaker 4: show up there and there are people that actually have there.

1404
01:18:18,800 --> 01:18:24,240
Speaker 4: They have no hope, no hope. So you've got the

1405
01:18:24,280 --> 01:18:31,320
Speaker 4: people that show up for the stories, but then you

1406
01:18:31,320 --> 01:18:34,479
Speaker 4: have the people that show up because the system has

1407
01:18:34,520 --> 01:18:41,200
Speaker 4: failed them and you're the last last ditch effort. And

1408
01:18:41,280 --> 01:18:43,719
Speaker 4: now because of some of the stuff that's been done,

1409
01:18:44,000 --> 01:18:47,320
Speaker 4: there's been crime crowd solving efforts that have been put

1410
01:18:47,360 --> 01:18:52,080
Speaker 4: forth where you get a collection of brains together and

1411
01:18:52,120 --> 01:18:55,840
Speaker 4: you all look at these these cases and I've seen

1412
01:18:55,920 --> 01:19:01,400
Speaker 4: it work. So that's it's a two edged sword. It's

1413
01:19:01,479 --> 01:19:08,160
Speaker 4: also put more emphasis on holding people accountable that are

1414
01:19:08,160 --> 01:19:12,840
Speaker 4: doing things doing things in the view like when I

1415
01:19:13,320 --> 01:19:16,599
Speaker 4: started covering the Idaho cases, the massacre what they referred

1416
01:19:16,600 --> 01:19:21,599
Speaker 4: to as the Idaho masacer Again, I was it happened

1417
01:19:21,600 --> 01:19:28,519
Speaker 4: those bodies were discovered at about thirteen hundred hours on

1418
01:19:28,840 --> 01:19:33,320
Speaker 4: Sunday afternoon. I had my first media call at six

1419
01:19:33,400 --> 01:19:37,200
Speaker 4: that evening, wanted me to make comment. Didn't stop for

1420
01:19:37,439 --> 01:19:42,000
Speaker 4: two years. It's like every every at least every other week,

1421
01:19:42,040 --> 01:19:44,840
Speaker 4: I would give an interview about it. There's only so

1422
01:19:44,920 --> 01:19:47,120
Speaker 4: much I can say. I wasn't inside the Tate, but

1423
01:19:50,160 --> 01:19:54,360
Speaker 4: every single day that case was scrutinized about why are

1424
01:19:54,360 --> 01:19:57,519
Speaker 4: they handling it this way? What we've seen this done

1425
01:19:57,600 --> 01:20:00,640
Speaker 4: other ways? You know, we we even in people in

1426
01:20:00,680 --> 01:20:03,320
Speaker 4: the public civilians would say, even we know not to

1427
01:20:03,360 --> 01:20:06,720
Speaker 4: do this, and of course I'd have to back them

1428
01:20:06,720 --> 01:20:08,360
Speaker 4: off and say, you don't know what's going on on

1429
01:20:08,360 --> 01:20:11,080
Speaker 4: the inside. You cannot just make it a simple judgment

1430
01:20:11,240 --> 01:20:13,400
Speaker 4: by virtue of what you're seeing coming in and out

1431
01:20:13,400 --> 01:20:17,040
Speaker 4: of the house. And I started seeing things. I'm thinking, well,

1432
01:20:17,080 --> 01:20:19,080
Speaker 4: that's kind of interesting. And then they got to the

1433
01:20:19,120 --> 01:20:22,400
Speaker 4: point where we're going to tear down the house, and

1434
01:20:22,439 --> 01:20:26,479
Speaker 4: thing hadn't gone a trial yet, and so, you know,

1435
01:20:26,520 --> 01:20:28,519
Speaker 4: and I'm starting to think, well, maybe some people have

1436
01:20:28,920 --> 01:20:33,160
Speaker 4: a point here, you know. And so now the spotlight

1437
01:20:33,800 --> 01:20:38,240
Speaker 4: has kind of shifted where, you know, those that work

1438
01:20:38,280 --> 01:20:41,800
Speaker 4: in public service and those that handle cases, they're held

1439
01:20:41,840 --> 01:20:45,080
Speaker 4: to a different standard, you know, because public's watching and

1440
01:20:45,120 --> 01:20:47,920
Speaker 4: his brother it is twenty four to seven don't think,

1441
01:20:48,320 --> 01:20:50,880
Speaker 4: don't think for two seconds that people aren't watching what's

1442
01:20:50,920 --> 01:20:55,400
Speaker 4: going on out there. They're making notes every day. You

1443
01:20:55,439 --> 01:20:56,840
Speaker 4: see it in Guphery right now.

1444
01:20:57,160 --> 01:21:00,559
Speaker 1: Well, the guys, significant one in the last few years

1445
01:21:00,560 --> 01:21:01,960
Speaker 1: is Charlie Kirk's death.

1446
01:21:01,840 --> 01:21:07,360
Speaker 4: Right, Charlie's Charlie's death. I was actually on I think

1447
01:21:08,000 --> 01:21:14,000
Speaker 4: I was on with Pierce Morgan, Rob O'Neill, and.

1448
01:21:13,920 --> 01:21:15,799
Speaker 2: That's where I saw you first with yeah.

1449
01:21:15,800 --> 01:21:21,800
Speaker 4: And Mike Cee I Mike, I can't remember his name.

1450
01:21:22,920 --> 01:21:25,559
Speaker 2: He's on Rogue and a Bunch, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1451
01:21:25,439 --> 01:21:27,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, he was on there, and they were just trying

1452
01:21:27,240 --> 01:21:30,120
Speaker 4: to get my assessment of just from a forensic standpoint

1453
01:21:30,120 --> 01:21:32,360
Speaker 4: of what I thought, you know, at that moment time,

1454
01:21:32,439 --> 01:21:37,360
Speaker 4: and you know, just having that discussion and so you know,

1455
01:21:37,400 --> 01:21:39,760
Speaker 4: and that that has evolved over time, and everybody has

1456
01:21:39,840 --> 01:21:43,559
Speaker 4: opinions about it, you know, everybody. Everybody's a ballistics expert,

1457
01:21:44,439 --> 01:21:47,959
Speaker 4: you know, and uh, and everybody's a medical, legal expert

1458
01:21:48,040 --> 01:21:50,559
Speaker 4: and all these sorts of things, and you kind of

1459
01:21:50,600 --> 01:21:52,479
Speaker 4: have to you take the good with the bad, and

1460
01:21:52,680 --> 01:21:56,400
Speaker 4: you understand procedurally how things are gone, how things are done.

1461
01:21:57,280 --> 01:22:00,479
Speaker 4: But then you know, you start hearing you know, there's

1462
01:22:00,479 --> 01:22:03,439
Speaker 4: all these conspiratorial pieces that come in, but you know,

1463
01:22:03,760 --> 01:22:07,200
Speaker 4: there's always been conspiratorial pieces about everything, and so you

1464
01:22:07,880 --> 01:22:10,080
Speaker 4: I try to look at it through an investigator's eyes

1465
01:22:10,120 --> 01:22:12,880
Speaker 4: and try to say, what do I know scientifically? What

1466
01:22:12,920 --> 01:22:15,519
Speaker 4: can I verify scientifically? And some stuff I just I

1467
01:22:15,560 --> 01:22:17,640
Speaker 4: can't because I don't have the data in front of me.

1468
01:22:18,080 --> 01:22:20,439
Speaker 4: I can kind of address how it should be handled

1469
01:22:20,720 --> 01:22:24,919
Speaker 4: and hopefully, hopefully it meets the standard that we expect

1470
01:22:24,920 --> 01:22:27,840
Speaker 4: of of everybody as an investigator and how these things

1471
01:22:27,840 --> 01:22:31,400
Speaker 4: are handled and processed, and you know, move forward on

1472
01:22:31,479 --> 01:22:33,559
Speaker 4: because you at the end of the day, you want,

1473
01:22:34,160 --> 01:22:36,320
Speaker 4: well with Charlie's case, you know, you want somebody held

1474
01:22:36,320 --> 01:22:39,559
Speaker 4: accountable for that. You know, you want somebody's feet put

1475
01:22:39,600 --> 01:22:41,840
Speaker 4: to the fire, and you want to understand what their

1476
01:22:42,320 --> 01:22:46,840
Speaker 4: point of origin is. You know, what's going on here?

1477
01:22:46,960 --> 01:22:49,680
Speaker 4: You know what, why did this happen? How was why

1478
01:22:49,800 --> 01:22:50,799
Speaker 4: was it allowed to happen?

1479
01:22:51,439 --> 01:22:54,000
Speaker 1: You know, and so you and I think that's that's

1480
01:22:54,000 --> 01:22:57,400
Speaker 1: such an important thing to kind of maybe close on.

1481
01:22:58,360 --> 01:22:58,960
Speaker 2: Is the why?

1482
01:22:59,200 --> 01:22:59,400
Speaker 3: Right?

1483
01:22:59,720 --> 01:23:06,360
Speaker 1: And there's an aspect of death that you know obviously

1484
01:23:06,400 --> 01:23:08,280
Speaker 1: transcends the why.

1485
01:23:08,400 --> 01:23:09,400
Speaker 3: It's yeah, and.

1486
01:23:09,320 --> 01:23:13,600
Speaker 1: So you know I would imagine as a person that

1487
01:23:13,760 --> 01:23:19,679
Speaker 1: spent so much time, you know, I mean processing literally

1488
01:23:19,960 --> 01:23:27,080
Speaker 1: every conceivable construct of death. You know, I would even

1489
01:23:27,120 --> 01:23:32,120
Speaker 1: imagine extensively your own death, you know, your father's death,

1490
01:23:32,160 --> 01:23:35,479
Speaker 1: that your the generations of death, your siblings deaths, or

1491
01:23:35,600 --> 01:23:39,479
Speaker 1: whoever around you has died and you know, but uh,

1492
01:23:39,720 --> 01:23:41,280
Speaker 1: you know what is?

1493
01:23:41,439 --> 01:23:41,800
Speaker 3: What is?

1494
01:23:43,439 --> 01:23:46,880
Speaker 2: What is some of advice that you can give to

1495
01:23:47,040 --> 01:23:50,640
Speaker 2: people to help them better process.

1496
01:23:50,520 --> 01:23:54,240
Speaker 1: And it's better such a horrible word to use. I'm

1497
01:23:54,280 --> 01:24:00,280
Speaker 1: trying to to better prepare them. Yeah, to better prepare them,

1498
01:24:00,320 --> 01:24:05,240
Speaker 1: I think, for the inevitability of their own death, or

1499
01:24:05,240 --> 01:24:09,280
Speaker 1: more importantly, the inevitability of them experiencing the death of

1500
01:24:09,320 --> 01:24:10,840
Speaker 1: someone they love or care about.

1501
01:24:12,880 --> 01:24:15,920
Speaker 4: I'm going to tell you a word that people need

1502
01:24:15,960 --> 01:24:20,240
Speaker 4: to completely and totally rid themselves of, and I'm begging

1503
01:24:20,280 --> 01:24:23,479
Speaker 4: you to do this, And that's the word closure. It's

1504
01:24:23,600 --> 01:24:27,880
Speaker 4: it is the biggest bunch of crap that has been

1505
01:24:27,920 --> 01:24:34,160
Speaker 4: sold to us as a society. And let me tell

1506
01:24:34,160 --> 01:24:37,680
Speaker 4: you why. It's one of the most dismissive terms on

1507
01:24:37,720 --> 01:24:42,920
Speaker 4: the face of the planet. If some do eight fool

1508
01:24:42,960 --> 01:24:46,519
Speaker 4: looks at you and says, well, maybe someday they'll have closure.

1509
01:24:47,720 --> 01:24:48,360
Speaker 3: In other words.

1510
01:24:48,400 --> 01:24:51,519
Speaker 4: What you're saying is shut your mouth. I don't have

1511
01:24:51,560 --> 01:24:53,559
Speaker 4: any more time to listen to anything that you have

1512
01:24:53,640 --> 01:24:59,080
Speaker 4: to say. Let's move on to the next death, because

1513
01:24:59,200 --> 01:25:04,880
Speaker 4: with death, there is is no closure death. Death is

1514
01:25:04,880 --> 01:25:09,120
Speaker 4: something that we all experience. People need to warm up

1515
01:25:09,160 --> 01:25:10,920
Speaker 4: to the fact that death is going to be part

1516
01:25:11,040 --> 01:25:13,320
Speaker 4: of their experience in life. From the moment we're born,

1517
01:25:13,439 --> 01:25:18,400
Speaker 4: we start dying, okay, and each one of us close

1518
01:25:18,439 --> 01:25:22,080
Speaker 4: our chapter. We die at certain intervals. At a certain interval,

1519
01:25:22,400 --> 01:25:24,600
Speaker 4: you're going to lose people along the way that you

1520
01:25:24,640 --> 01:25:26,240
Speaker 4: thought that would be with you forever and ever.

1521
01:25:26,280 --> 01:25:26,639
Speaker 3: Amen.

1522
01:25:26,760 --> 01:25:30,160
Speaker 4: You'll have people that you know, You'll have the three

1523
01:25:30,200 --> 01:25:33,280
Speaker 4: pack of day Grandpa that will live until he's ninety nine,

1524
01:25:33,479 --> 01:25:38,519
Speaker 4: and no one can explain it. All right, People need

1525
01:25:38,560 --> 01:25:41,679
Speaker 4: to embrace the fact that they're going to die and

1526
01:25:41,880 --> 01:25:46,680
Speaker 4: in that, in that foundationally life will be so much

1527
01:25:46,720 --> 01:25:52,000
Speaker 4: sweeter that it's And it's not about escaping this life.

1528
01:25:52,120 --> 01:25:57,120
Speaker 4: It's about living this life. Because I've seen so many

1529
01:25:57,160 --> 01:26:00,160
Speaker 4: people out there that have chosen to escape it. I'm

1530
01:26:00,160 --> 01:26:05,960
Speaker 4: not talking about somebody that has a press contact gunshot one.

1531
01:26:07,400 --> 01:26:12,640
Speaker 4: I'm talking about people that just have given up. And

1532
01:26:12,680 --> 01:26:17,280
Speaker 4: it's almost a passive suicide. I've seen a lot of that.

1533
01:26:17,320 --> 01:26:19,519
Speaker 4: People don't think about that. There are people that will

1534
01:26:19,640 --> 01:26:22,640
Speaker 4: just allow themselves to develop what I call the dwindles,

1535
01:26:23,160 --> 01:26:24,439
Speaker 4: and they're circling the drain.

1536
01:26:25,200 --> 01:26:27,320
Speaker 2: I had a friend who just died of that last year.

1537
01:26:27,800 --> 01:26:34,519
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's a tragedy. You have to find that will. Now,

1538
01:26:34,680 --> 01:26:43,320
Speaker 4: for me, that will has has shifted from it's not

1539
01:26:43,439 --> 01:26:48,240
Speaker 4: about me, It's about my relationship with God. And every

1540
01:26:48,280 --> 01:26:51,240
Speaker 4: time I go to mass now at this point in

1541
01:26:51,240 --> 01:26:54,800
Speaker 4: my life, when I walk in and I understand that

1542
01:26:56,840 --> 01:26:59,559
Speaker 4: the God that I worship is greater than all of

1543
01:26:59,560 --> 01:27:04,000
Speaker 4: this created life, any created death, and it's going to happen.

1544
01:27:04,240 --> 01:27:07,720
Speaker 4: We we are not meant to go on in this

1545
01:27:07,800 --> 01:27:13,400
Speaker 4: physical body to infinity, and we are all in either

1546
01:27:13,520 --> 01:27:17,879
Speaker 4: spiritual or or physical state of decay.

1547
01:27:18,000 --> 01:27:19,479
Speaker 3: That's that's the reality of it.

1548
01:27:19,520 --> 01:27:23,160
Speaker 4: You know, if you just look at it from biological standpoint, Uh,

1549
01:27:23,240 --> 01:27:24,760
Speaker 4: you can try to stem it. You can try to

1550
01:27:25,400 --> 01:27:27,920
Speaker 4: you know, knock it down, you know, and say I'm

1551
01:27:28,479 --> 01:27:30,120
Speaker 4: I'm going to do this with myself.

1552
01:27:30,200 --> 01:27:31,280
Speaker 3: I'm you know.

1553
01:27:31,400 --> 01:27:35,240
Speaker 4: But either way it's you're you're loping toward the end

1554
01:27:35,439 --> 01:27:38,519
Speaker 4: at the entire time, you know, right, now my wife

1555
01:27:38,640 --> 01:27:41,840
Speaker 4: has as as I'm speaking right now, she's in the

1556
01:27:41,920 --> 01:27:43,880
Speaker 4: van and she's gone to go pick up my grand

1557
01:27:43,920 --> 01:27:50,800
Speaker 4: babies in another state and driving them back here. I'm

1558
01:27:50,800 --> 01:27:54,080
Speaker 4: going to absorb that this weekend and enjoy every single

1559
01:27:54,120 --> 01:27:57,840
Speaker 4: moment that I have have with them because I didn't brother,

1560
01:27:57,880 --> 01:28:01,840
Speaker 4: I didn't think that I would I would get to

1561
01:28:01,880 --> 01:28:04,720
Speaker 4: this point. I really, you know, I saw myself in

1562
01:28:04,760 --> 01:28:06,920
Speaker 4: that room or in those dreams, surrounded by death, with

1563
01:28:07,080 --> 01:28:12,439
Speaker 4: flies lighting on me. And uh, there were many nights,

1564
01:28:12,479 --> 01:28:15,800
Speaker 4: you know that I would I would stare at the

1565
01:28:15,800 --> 01:28:20,640
Speaker 4: cold blue skill and thinking I can't, I can't do

1566
01:28:20,680 --> 01:28:23,360
Speaker 4: this anymore. I can't see this. But it's it's all

1567
01:28:23,360 --> 01:28:26,240
Speaker 4: that I knew. It's all that I was. It was

1568
01:28:26,240 --> 01:28:30,080
Speaker 4: the essence of me. But I've realized that that's not me.

1569
01:28:31,280 --> 01:28:32,280
Speaker 3: That is not me.

1570
01:28:33,560 --> 01:28:37,560
Speaker 4: There's more to me than Joseph Scott Morgan, the death investigator,

1571
01:28:37,600 --> 01:28:46,360
Speaker 4: and the college professor and the guys you see on TV. H. Well,

1572
01:28:46,360 --> 01:28:48,599
Speaker 4: I'll tell you what you just have to You have

1573
01:28:48,640 --> 01:28:51,360
Speaker 4: to back off and and and just understand that it's

1574
01:28:51,400 --> 01:28:55,599
Speaker 4: on the way and it's it's part of it. But

1575
01:28:55,600 --> 01:28:59,759
Speaker 4: but don't please, I'm begging people just this idea of closure,

1576
01:29:00,120 --> 01:29:02,200
Speaker 4: you'll never have it. You need to celebrate the life

1577
01:29:02,200 --> 01:29:04,000
Speaker 4: and the time that you had with these people in

1578
01:29:04,000 --> 01:29:06,120
Speaker 4: the life and the time that you have that you're afforded.

1579
01:29:06,800 --> 01:29:07,200
Speaker 3: Amen.

1580
01:29:07,920 --> 01:29:12,600
Speaker 1: I just this has been one of the most impactful

1581
01:29:12,640 --> 01:29:17,479
Speaker 1: interviews I've ever done. I've never heard anybody be able

1582
01:29:17,560 --> 01:29:19,439
Speaker 1: to articulate what you just did.

1583
01:29:19,360 --> 01:29:21,760
Speaker 2: Is in the way that you did it.

1584
01:29:23,160 --> 01:29:28,639
Speaker 1: I just, man, I'm kind of out of loss for words,

1585
01:29:28,680 --> 01:29:34,240
Speaker 1: which Jority will tell you is virtually impossible. So again, sir,

1586
01:29:36,680 --> 01:29:41,120
Speaker 1: just thank you, oh, thank you for bestowing the magnitude

1587
01:29:41,120 --> 01:29:47,200
Speaker 1: of that wisdom on me. Personally, It's just uh, I mean,

1588
01:29:47,800 --> 01:29:49,920
Speaker 1: you know, I've been in the culture of death my

1589
01:29:50,080 --> 01:29:54,040
Speaker 1: entire adult life and still get those eleven thirty texts

1590
01:29:54,080 --> 01:29:59,599
Speaker 1: at night, Hey another friend's dead, and you know it's

1591
01:29:59,640 --> 01:30:02,880
Speaker 1: in a g into our familial situation pretty intensely as

1592
01:30:02,920 --> 01:30:03,360
Speaker 1: well too.

1593
01:30:03,439 --> 01:30:07,080
Speaker 2: And so but your words they.

1594
01:30:06,840 --> 01:30:08,800
Speaker 1: Have a lot of wheat, a lot of meaning, and

1595
01:30:08,920 --> 01:30:12,479
Speaker 1: I just, man, I can't thank you enough for coming on.

1596
01:30:12,520 --> 01:30:14,479
Speaker 4: Right, welcome, Thanks for having me, Thank you for everything

1597
01:30:14,520 --> 01:30:17,320
Speaker 4: to do for the community. We appreciate you. Yeah, thank

1598
01:30:17,360 --> 01:30:18,080
Speaker 4: you very much.

1599
01:30:19,240 --> 01:30:21,439
Speaker 1: Well, last, before you go out, just where can people

1600
01:30:21,479 --> 01:30:25,560
Speaker 1: listen to your show because if this is even remotely

1601
01:30:25,600 --> 01:30:28,160
Speaker 1: what you do on a regular basis, man, I want

1602
01:30:28,200 --> 01:30:33,320
Speaker 1: to push my entire audience towards you because this is powerful.

1603
01:30:33,479 --> 01:30:36,160
Speaker 3: Powerful. Well that's kind of you. Uh.

1604
01:30:36,280 --> 01:30:38,759
Speaker 4: First off, I a big shout out to my university.

1605
01:30:38,760 --> 01:30:44,200
Speaker 4: It's Jacksonville State University in Jacksonville, Alabama, not Florida. We're

1606
01:30:44,200 --> 01:30:47,240
Speaker 4: in the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains at the very

1607
01:30:47,280 --> 01:30:50,120
Speaker 4: tail end of one of the most a place that

1608
01:30:50,200 --> 01:30:52,280
Speaker 4: I have found peace in my life. And I would

1609
01:30:52,320 --> 01:30:54,599
Speaker 4: say that, you know you now, knowing a little bit

1610
01:30:54,640 --> 01:30:56,599
Speaker 4: of something about me, I found a place of peace,

1611
01:30:57,120 --> 01:30:57,960
Speaker 4: and they exist for.

1612
01:30:57,880 --> 01:30:58,639
Speaker 3: Everybody out there.

1613
01:30:58,640 --> 01:31:00,880
Speaker 4: I can tell you that I've just found my in

1614
01:31:00,920 --> 01:31:06,559
Speaker 4: this little little town here in Alabama. But you can

1615
01:31:06,640 --> 01:31:11,120
Speaker 4: check out our forensics program there and which is pretty amazing.

1616
01:31:11,439 --> 01:31:14,080
Speaker 4: It's one of the best in Southeast. I'd say it

1617
01:31:14,120 --> 01:31:18,240
Speaker 4: is the best in southeastern United States. As far as

1618
01:31:19,680 --> 01:31:22,800
Speaker 4: my appearances and whatnot, I'm new to YouTube, so I've

1619
01:31:22,840 --> 01:31:25,599
Speaker 4: been doing I'm on my five hundredth episode of my

1620
01:31:25,680 --> 01:31:29,479
Speaker 4: podcast or we just we passed it.

1621
01:31:28,920 --> 01:31:31,759
Speaker 3: To on Monday. Actually, congratu.

1622
01:31:32,520 --> 01:31:35,679
Speaker 4: We dropped well, thank you, we dropped three episodes per week.

1623
01:31:35,760 --> 01:31:40,120
Speaker 4: We're on iHeart and Apple and pot and what is

1624
01:31:40,160 --> 01:31:43,679
Speaker 4: it Spotify Spotify. But I just have hopped on YouTube

1625
01:31:43,720 --> 01:31:46,960
Speaker 4: for the very first time, and it's body Bags with

1626
01:31:47,120 --> 01:31:51,120
Speaker 4: Joseph Scott Morgan. It's at Joseph Scott Morgan on YouTube.

1627
01:31:51,240 --> 01:31:56,559
Speaker 4: So check us out. We've breached. We've been live on

1628
01:31:56,600 --> 01:32:00,360
Speaker 4: YouTube for I think three and a half four weeks

1629
01:32:00,400 --> 01:32:07,200
Speaker 4: now and we're closing in on five thousand followers or subscribers.

1630
01:32:09,240 --> 01:32:12,559
Speaker 4: Well we've been well, thank you, they've backloaded all and

1631
01:32:12,880 --> 01:32:15,280
Speaker 4: right now we're about to go to video. Haven't done that.

1632
01:32:15,320 --> 01:32:19,200
Speaker 4: I don't have the bravery that you have. We're about

1633
01:32:19,240 --> 01:32:21,080
Speaker 4: to go to We're about to go to video pretty soon.

1634
01:32:21,120 --> 01:32:25,080
Speaker 4: But all of the old the cat our catalog, I

1635
01:32:25,120 --> 01:32:27,840
Speaker 4: never thought i'd use that term about something I'm involved with.

1636
01:32:29,360 --> 01:32:31,000
Speaker 3: Our catalog is.

1637
01:32:30,920 --> 01:32:35,120
Speaker 4: Now on YouTube and uh, you know, we listen the

1638
01:32:35,160 --> 01:32:37,400
Speaker 4: thing I do with body bags and the reason I

1639
01:32:37,439 --> 01:32:39,280
Speaker 4: call it body bags that puts some people off?

1640
01:32:39,400 --> 01:32:41,639
Speaker 3: Is that and give you a story about that real quick?

1641
01:32:41,840 --> 01:32:42,120
Speaker 3: Is that?

1642
01:32:44,640 --> 01:32:49,240
Speaker 4: H Every time I would look into our vehicles when

1643
01:32:49,280 --> 01:32:51,240
Speaker 4: I work for the em we would carry a stack

1644
01:32:51,280 --> 01:32:54,160
Speaker 4: of bodybags with us. And there's a certain time when

1645
01:32:54,160 --> 01:32:57,200
Speaker 4: we would have to replenish and for every body bag

1646
01:32:58,160 --> 01:33:01,680
Speaker 4: that represents a person. And so my show is called

1647
01:33:01,720 --> 01:33:05,120
Speaker 4: Bodybacks with Joseph Scott Morgan, and so it's emblematic of

1648
01:33:05,160 --> 01:33:07,000
Speaker 4: the deaths that occur all around the country some of

1649
01:33:07,000 --> 01:33:10,759
Speaker 4: the things, but I focus on forensic education and taking

1650
01:33:11,000 --> 01:33:12,599
Speaker 4: cases that are in the news, and I talk about

1651
01:33:12,600 --> 01:33:15,360
Speaker 4: it from a forensic perspective because a lot of people

1652
01:33:15,520 --> 01:33:17,800
Speaker 4: have not been blessed with the opportunities I've had of

1653
01:33:17,840 --> 01:33:20,759
Speaker 4: working in forensics and having a graduate degree in forensics

1654
01:33:20,840 --> 01:33:23,880
Speaker 4: and all that stuff. And so I like to talk

1655
01:33:23,920 --> 01:33:26,400
Speaker 4: to people that you know, are interested in what I'm

1656
01:33:26,400 --> 01:33:29,160
Speaker 4: interested in and don't have the same advantages that I've had.

1657
01:33:29,240 --> 01:33:31,840
Speaker 4: So that's why we do it, and we thoroughly enjoy it.

1658
01:33:31,840 --> 01:33:35,200
Speaker 4: So three times a week we drop on Tuesday, Wednesdays

1659
01:33:35,200 --> 01:33:35,960
Speaker 4: and Thursdays.

1660
01:33:36,280 --> 01:33:39,240
Speaker 1: Well, I'm a subscriber now, so I'm thanking forward to

1661
01:33:39,520 --> 01:33:40,280
Speaker 1: putting that in my.

1662
01:33:40,320 --> 01:33:41,400
Speaker 2: Repertoire as well.

1663
01:33:41,439 --> 01:33:44,880
Speaker 1: To you know, Joseph, you're a pretty phenomenal human being,

1664
01:33:44,960 --> 01:33:48,160
Speaker 1: not just like your technical expertise, but the way you're

1665
01:33:48,200 --> 01:33:50,760
Speaker 1: able to, like I said, deliver.

1666
01:33:52,080 --> 01:33:55,920
Speaker 2: The narrative of life and death is really, I got

1667
01:33:55,960 --> 01:33:57,080
Speaker 2: to say, it's pretty unmatched.

1668
01:33:57,360 --> 01:33:59,639
Speaker 4: Thank you everybody. I thank you growth so thanks your

1669
01:34:00,000 --> 01:34:02,360
Speaker 4: coming on. You're quite welcome. Thank you, God bless you

1670
01:34:02,400 --> 01:34:02,720
Speaker 4: as well.