1 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to blow your mind. My name 2 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:10,640 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it is 3 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: time to venture deep, deep into that fault. That's right. 4 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,600 Speaker 1: This uh, this weekend, it is full of threads. Threads. 5 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: What what's it going to be, Robert, you're the one 6 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 1: looking at the notes. Oh, you don't know which which one? Well, 7 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:26,240 Speaker 1: let me just say there's information contained within these threads. Oh, 8 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: this is the one we did about the Inca Kingdom 9 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: of the Fibers talking knots. That's right. This is from 10 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: March eight, and uh, yeah, this one was just really 11 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: fascinating because we get into this essentially this entire kingdom 12 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:44,239 Speaker 1: that was built on fiber technology from rope bridges that 13 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: would connect an Imperial highway system to fiber armored soldiers. 14 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 1: Uh and and even keeping all sorts of detailed information 15 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: in the in the the KIPU system of knotted colored string. 16 00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: I remember really enjoying this one, and so we hope 17 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: you will too. When did it originally air? This one 18 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: originally aired March eight. Al Right, well, we hope you 19 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:13,320 Speaker 1: enjoyed this visit to the Inca Kingdom of the Fibers. 20 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 21 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:25,479 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, wasn't it stuff to blow your Mind? 22 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 1: My name is Robert lamp and I'm Joe McCormick and Robert. 23 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: I've got a question I want you to think about it. 24 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: Imagine somebody contracted you. I don't know if you've ever 25 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: built anything like a ship or a house or anything 26 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 1: like that, but imagine somebody contracted you to build something. 27 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 1: Let's say it's a bridge. They want you to build 28 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: a suspension bridge over a chasm. But there is a 29 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: little qualifier on this request. You can't use any written 30 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: down words, so you can't read any words, and you 31 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: can't write any words. But I have to build a 32 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: physical bridge. Yes, So you need to get some workers together, 33 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: and you need to instruct them on how to build it. 34 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: And you've got to get all your materials that you're 35 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: going to need in order to build the bridge. And 36 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: you've I mean, you might have to research yourself how 37 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: to build a bridge if you've never done it before 38 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,639 Speaker 1: and you can't use any written down words. Yeah, that's 39 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: gonna be challenging. Like it it almost makes the only 40 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 1: alternative to be for my from myself to build it 41 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:31,639 Speaker 1: poorly without the hate of anyone else, because I'm gonna 42 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: have such a difficulty in communicating with the workers I'm 43 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: gonna have, but I'm gonna have all this difficulty just 44 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: acquiring the plans, acquiring the materials that I need. It's 45 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: going to be a huge headache. Okay. Now imagine on 46 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: top of that, I also want you to organize a 47 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: military campaign. So you're going to need to get a 48 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: whole bunch of people together and go rate a village 49 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: on the other side of a river. You need to 50 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 1: recruit your troops, you need to get provisions for all 51 00:02:58,200 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: of them, and to make sure they have food and 52 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 1: weapons and everything. Uh. And you can't use any written 53 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:06,119 Speaker 1: down words. I think this is really demanding a lot 54 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: of me. I don't think this. I don't see see 55 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: my empire growing too too much. I don't either. I 56 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: And this is one of the questions that we're going 57 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: to have to confront in today's episode, because we're gonna 58 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: be talking today about the Keepoo, which are a fascinating 59 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: record keeping and notation system from the Inca Empire, and 60 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: that still has many questions about it today about to 61 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: what extent it represents different kinds of information and what 62 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: it can tell us about things that may otherwise be 63 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: lost to history. So I want to sort of draw 64 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: a picture in your brain to start off with. You 65 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: are holding a woven artifact between your hands, and it's 66 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: made out of hundreds of strings or chords. Uh, and 67 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: it's very old, and it looks like it may have 68 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: sort of succumbed to some I don't know what you 69 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: might call parasitism or predation on cloth over time. It 70 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: might have some fungus or some insect larva in it 71 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: or something like that. But it's made out of these 72 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: very old strings or chords. Uh. It might be woven 73 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: out of cotton, or it might be woven out of 74 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 1: wool from a South American camelid like a llama or 75 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 1: an alpaca. And it has one thick backbone cord stretching 76 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: horizontally at the top, sort of like a clothes line. 77 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: It might be about a quarter inch thick, so sort 78 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: of like the chords that you would have in your electronics. 79 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: And then down from that backbone cord hang lots of 80 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 1: other chords with different characteristics. Some have different colors, they 81 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 1: have not tied all over them, They might have subsidiary 82 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: strings hanging off of the cords. This is a key poo. 83 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: And if anyone out there has ever gone to an 84 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: art museum and seeing some examples of fiber art, particularly 85 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: modern fiber art, with kind of an archaic look to them, 86 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:02,840 Speaker 1: that's kind of since you get looking at the key 87 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: poop because it's it's it's it's intricate looking, it's old looking. 88 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: But you also without coming in with some prior knowledge, 89 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 1: it's very difficult to understand what it's for. Yeah, So 90 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: these keypuo are so fascinating and enigmatic that I think 91 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: they have inspired a lot of other designs and artists 92 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 1: throughout the ages. And so the word keep you comes 93 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: from there. There are a lot of spellings of it, 94 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 1: we should note, so if you're looking forward on the internet, 95 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: you might have to try different spellings. It's k h 96 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: i pu or q u pu h some other variations. 97 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: But basically it comes from a Quechua word, and Quetchua 98 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: as an Andean language in South America, and the word 99 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: means not. And this makes sense because, as I've said, 100 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: in the strings, you'll see lots of knots tied up 101 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: and down the length of the strings hanging off the top. 102 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: So this is a very rare artifact in the modern day. 103 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 1: Only some hundred some few hundred of them exist. We 104 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: can talk about the numbers in a bit, and the 105 00:05:57,480 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: basic terminology that we're gonna use in the episode today 106 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 1: for your reference is that this this backbone chord at 107 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: the top sort of the main chord, is the primary chord. 108 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 1: The ones that hang down from it with knots on 109 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,159 Speaker 1: them are called the pendant chords. And then some of 110 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 1: the pendant chords are going to have subsidiary chords hanging 111 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: off of them, and then there can be subsidiaries of 112 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 1: subsidiaries of subsidiaries, and these things can get very complicated 113 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: and huge over time. But the question, of course is 114 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: what does it do? Yeah, because looking looking at one 115 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: you might think, well, this is some sort of an 116 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: art mop or something. Right, what are all the knots for? 117 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: Why so many chords? Yeah, it looks like it could 118 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: be a garment, like you know, it could be like 119 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 1: a skirt. You might have a you know, grass skirt 120 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: or something like that. Or it could be yes, like 121 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 1: you say, a mop, a cleaning instrument of some kind 122 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:50,280 Speaker 1: of some kind of tool. But What everyone now agrees 123 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 1: is that it was not these things. It might be 124 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 1: a tool in one sense, but it's an intellectual tool. 125 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: This collection of strings and chords with knots tied in 126 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,840 Speaker 1: is a system of storing information, just like the hard 127 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,840 Speaker 1: disc on your computer, or like a or like a 128 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: clay tablet or a paper document. It's for storing information 129 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: that was useful to the Indian people's who used it. 130 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: So it stores information, but what kind of information? What 131 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: does it say? Yeah, we're getting into the into this 132 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: area of pre written language recording of information. Yeah, which 133 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: is such a fascinating area because, uh, you you're seeing 134 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: the emergence of of of written language. Uh, we're talking 135 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: about notation physical notation of information here. Yeah. We're so 136 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: used to the way our graphical languages work. I mean, 137 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 1: I think that's the term. We should use graphical languages right, 138 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: because we represent them by making essentially drawings on paper 139 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: or on another surface. You you you leave markings on 140 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: a flat surface to indicate letters that we use as 141 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: a phonetic system of communicating language. We operate by pictures 142 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: correspond to sounds of words, and those sounds of words 143 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: correspond to ideas. And we're so immersed in this uh, 144 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: in this system, I mean it informs the way we 145 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: think about the world as well as interact with it. 146 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 1: So it's it is kind of difficult for a modern 147 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: view or a modern language user to sort of strip 148 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: some of that away, uh, to strip our written system 149 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: away and try to imagine a world without it. Yeah. 150 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: And I want to get to the impact of physical 151 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: writing systems on the mind towards the end of this episode, 152 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: but for now, I think we should focus on the 153 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: Keypoo itself and look at what this artifact is, what 154 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: we can learn about it, and what the mysteries about 155 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: it that remain are. Yeah, and indeed where it comes from, 156 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: because understanding the Incan civilization is also vital to to 157 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: seeing like how did this, how did this come to 158 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: take place? Yeah? Absolutely, so I think that's a great 159 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: place to start. We should give a very brief, very 160 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: cursory overview of the Inca Empire. Obviously we can't get 161 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 1: into all the fascinating details about this empire. It would 162 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: take over the podcast and become the whole thing. But 163 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: but to start off with, the Inca Empire was a 164 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: civilization that occupied the Andes. The Andean region and the 165 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: mountains in the west of South America in what is 166 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: today Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador, Chile, Argentina, and in terms of 167 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: sheer size, it was the single greatest empire in all 168 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: of the America's before the European invasion. So the Incas 169 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: had this vast, powerful, impressive empire stretching all and down 170 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 1: the west side of South America when the Europeans arrived 171 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:43,439 Speaker 1: in the late fourteen hundreds early fifteen hundreds. But according 172 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,959 Speaker 1: to the traditional understanding of the history of this pre 173 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: Columbian civilization, the Inca did not have traditional written records. 174 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: They didn't have a writing system, or they certainly didn't 175 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: have one of the kind that we can understand as 176 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 1: graphical writing system, like markings on a page, and for 177 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: a long time it was thought that they didn't have 178 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: any sort of writing system at all. And because of 179 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: the lack of known historical or written records by the 180 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: Incas themselves, a lot of the information that we have 181 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: about Inca culture comes directly from the Spanish conquerors and 182 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 1: colonists who came beginning with Francisco Pizzarro, who colonized South 183 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 1: America in the fifteen hundreds. And eventually brought the Inca 184 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,559 Speaker 1: Empire to an end. But we should we should talk 185 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: about a few cultural facts about the Incas. Like one 186 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: of the things to look at is what their religion 187 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: and mythology looked like. Yes, indeed, and they had a 188 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 1: had a really, you know, fairly complex religious system. It 189 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: was centered on the worship of the Sun and the 190 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: guise of the ancestor guide Inti, but it also entailed 191 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 1: a host of other pre uh Inca belief systems as 192 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: well as a rich tradition of ceremonial magic, animism, dualism, 193 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 1: cults of the mummified dead, and hopefully that is something 194 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 1: that future episode of of Stuff to Blow your mind 195 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 1: will get to, as we've had some mummy episodes the 196 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 1: mummies of the Indian civilization. This is fascinating. We should 197 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: definitely come back to that. Indeed, magical items, divination as 198 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: well as animal and human sacrifice. Now that that god Inti, 199 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: the ancestor god, is depicted as a human face on 200 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: a race blade disc, it's an important god of crops 201 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: in life, and most of their major uh deities line 202 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: up with what you would expect from an agrarian society, 203 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 1: you know, the gods of rain, the gods of sun, etcetera. Okay, 204 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 1: so the INTI the face on the disc that's sort 205 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: of like a face in the sun. You're saying, yeah, 206 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: the sun god essential to everything. Gotta have one, right. 207 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: But then there's also a god by the name of 208 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: Vera Coca, which is the creator god of the Inca 209 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: or at least the Late Inca. And so the idea 210 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: here is that he created the sun and the moon 211 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 1: on Lake Titticaca. After his creation, he wanders the world 212 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: as a bearded robed man with a staff, teaching the 213 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: ways of yeaht of civilization to the people. So imagine 214 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,959 Speaker 1: sort of a uh, you know, a South American gandolf. 215 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:09,959 Speaker 1: I'm thinking that's amazing. So the creator god that comes 216 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: to earth and wanders his own creation as as a 217 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,679 Speaker 1: sort of itinerant. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of like, uh, 218 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 1: it reminds me a little bit of of of some 219 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: of the later Dune novels. Oh yeah, there you go. 220 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 1: But but he But the other thing is that this 221 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: is a very ancient god and he actually predated the 222 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: Inca Empire. They didn't actually add him to the pantheon 223 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: until much later, possibly under the rule of an emperor 224 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: who took the name of the god Vera Coca and 225 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: died in fourteen thirty eight. So it's kind of this 226 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,439 Speaker 1: interesting scenario we have where it's a pre existing god, 227 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: it doesn't factor into the early Inca system, but then 228 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: ends up becoming a dominant one later on. Yeah, but 229 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: of course, when we talk about the Inca Empire there, 230 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: we're not just talking about the the ethnic group of 231 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: the Incas themselves, because that they went on to create 232 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: this vast impride that in included many different regions of 233 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: the continent and many different people. So so they had 234 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: a vast system of social and political organization exactly. So yeah, 235 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: it's like any really any kind of imperial religious system. 236 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: They're going to be these other older religions that are 237 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: playing into the popular belief system. Uh, they're gonna be 238 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 1: regional beliefs, they're gonna be new beliefs. Uh. Suddenly God's 239 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: gods that suddenly find a following with very important people. Uh. 240 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: So yeah, it's it's it's a rich tapestry. Now, as 241 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 1: for their overall political organization, they established their capital in 242 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: cuzco uh in Peru in the what is now Peru 243 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: and twelfth century. Uh. And they expanded via military conquest 244 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: in the early fifteenth century, and within a hundred years 245 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 1: they gained control of the Indian population of about twelve 246 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 1: million people total. Yeah. And I've read many sources talking 247 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 1: about the very hierarchical nature of the of the Incan Empire. Yeah, 248 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 1: like that they were very clearly defined systems of who 249 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: answered to who. Yeah, It's it's easy to to take 250 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: sort of a Western uh approach to all this and 251 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 1: and view other civilizations and kind of imagine something kind 252 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 1: of simple and primitive. They've got a pope and a 253 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 1: king and all that. Yeah. But but but this is 254 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: really it was a really rich system. And certainly at 255 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: the top it's it's headed by it by the emperor. 256 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: But underneath the emperor there's just a complete aristocratic bureaucracy, 257 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 1: and there's in in the military system that keeps a 258 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: firm commanding hand on everything. And the divisions here involve 259 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: the central government, quarter league governments of provincial governments, and 260 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: what they could called decimal administrations and so and the 261 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: priesthood plays an important role in the structure as well 262 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: as does the military. And it all kind of just 263 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: tightens the grip on on most of the the people 264 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: in the empire, who are just farmers. Yeah. Now, as 265 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier, there were hundreds of years of the 266 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: Incas sort of expanding their their power and capabilities. But 267 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: as the actual official empire goes, it was fairly short lived, 268 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: officially lasting only from the early fourteen hundreds think the 269 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 1: fourteen thirties or so until the Spanish conquest beginning in 270 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: the fifteen thirties, with the last Inco resistance being destroyed 271 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: by the Spanish in the fifteen seventies. However, despite that 272 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: short period, the Incas were incredibly productive in building this 273 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: powerful technological civilization. Yeah. And the same way that their 274 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: religion was sort of pieces of things that already worked, 275 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: so to their their empire seems to be built of 276 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: technologies that were already more or less in place. But 277 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: then what they did with them, uh, in creating the 278 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: unified structure is pretty amazing. Yeah. I read definitely one 279 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: scholar talking about how the the the amazing technology of 280 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: the Inca was primarily an organizational or management based technology. 281 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: What was amazing about what they did was their ability 282 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: to to organize groups of people to achieve in is 283 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: whether those ends are engineering or architectural, or strategic social 284 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: organizations or civic organizations, that they were able to mobilize 285 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: people toward goals and get things done. Yeah, because they 286 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: already had You already had the skills out there. You 287 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: already had plenty of of of successful farmers who had 288 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: successful craftsmen. Uh. And then they were able to utilize 289 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: these uh to create the infrastructure of empire. Yeah. But 290 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: just a few quick things to name about the Incan 291 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: technological achievements. One of course would be their their civic infrastructure, 292 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: So the cities and the roads they have that span 293 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: diverse climates and ecoregions and dealt with very difficult terrain 294 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: throughout the Andes. I mean, they're building a civilization up 295 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: and down the sides of unwelcoming mountains, you might say. 296 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: But there's also the Incan road system, and this passes 297 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: through the high Andes coastal desert, the lowland forest. It 298 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: was complex and use traffic management. And then there's this 299 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: one fact that often gets referenced because it's so interesting 300 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: that they had a they had a mess anger system 301 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: made of these messengers known as choskis. Have you read 302 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: about these guys, yes, because they do tie in with 303 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 1: our our core subject here today. Yeah. Yeah. So these 304 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 1: are lightning, fast running messengers, and they carried information across 305 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 1: these empire spanning road systems, and they would carry with 306 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:18,919 Speaker 1: them the subject of what we're talking about today, Like 307 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: you said, the key boos, these these strings and chords 308 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: that had knots on them to carry information, and they 309 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 1: would carry the key boos with them, and they trade 310 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: out with rested runners at way points, and they would 311 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 1: bring information about state projects back to central administrative nodes 312 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 1: like CUSCO. And they could cover huge distances very quickly, 313 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,920 Speaker 1: and often cited numbers that they could cover two and 314 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 1: forty kilometers at day on foot and uh and and 315 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 1: another thing I've read is that they boosted their high 316 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: altitude sprinting power by chewing coca leaves to increase endurance 317 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,360 Speaker 1: and dull pains and hunger and thirst and the sort 318 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,879 Speaker 1: of focus of course, the coca leaves being the precursor 319 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,919 Speaker 1: to cocaine. Uh And even here you might say that 320 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: this is a technological innovation in the use of new 321 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: tropics or performance enhancing drugs. Oh yeah. And of course, 322 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 1: even to this day you can. It's it's sometimes recommended 323 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: to have the coca tea if you're trying to adapt 324 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: to high altitude UH situations in South America. Yeah. But 325 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: of course on top of all that, they had irrigation systems, 326 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,640 Speaker 1: calculations used for engineering that the Incans had this interesting 327 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: stone device called a yu panna, which is from what 328 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: I've read, it's similar to an abacus. It was like 329 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: a stone device they used for doing calculations. Also, one 330 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 1: of the most impressive and interesting things to me is 331 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 1: their bridges. They're just amazing. Yeah, they're They're bridges are 332 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 1: really fascinating. And this this is something I think I 333 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: covered for the first time when I was working on 334 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 1: how bridges work for how stuff Works dot com um. 335 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: The Incans built the earliest known suspension build bridges in 336 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 1: the world out of twisted grass. Essentially, we're talking about 337 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: fiber arts here. And this is where I get kind 338 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 1: of excited thinking about them, because you you think of 339 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: this this culture where again they're building the empire out 340 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,400 Speaker 1: of the existing tools. What are we good at? What can? 341 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: What are what are we great at? One of the 342 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 1: things they're great at is crafting things out of fiber 343 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 1: out of stringing out of rope and twine. Yeah. I 344 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 1: didn't even think about this connection until now. But we're 345 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,160 Speaker 1: seeing this notation system that we're focusing on today made 346 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:27,120 Speaker 1: out of textiles. We're seeing major infrastructure like bridges made 347 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: out of weaving. Uh. It's it's a sort of weaving 348 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,439 Speaker 1: based techno culture. Yeah, it's kind of like to come 349 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 1: back to that question you ask me at the beginning 350 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:38,120 Speaker 1: of the episode, you know, how would I do all 351 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: these things? How would I build my empire if I 352 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: couldn't use written language? Like the follow up question would 353 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 1: might have to be what what are you good at? 354 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: What is the what what is your what is your 355 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:50,919 Speaker 1: your primary skill that we could build all of this 356 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 1: or more than that, what is what are lots of 357 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:55,439 Speaker 1: people good at? You know what? What are the skills 358 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: that we can get lots of people doing for the 359 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: empire without having to teach them how to do it? Yeah. 360 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,440 Speaker 1: So these bridges in question here, they were first discovered 361 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 1: when Spanish conquistadors made their way into Buru in the 362 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: year fifteen thirty two. Uh, And they discovered this this 363 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: wonderful highway system that we've already mentioned. But as you 364 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,959 Speaker 1: mentioned that highway system has to span some pretty treacherous areas, 365 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 1: including some some some deep mountain gorges. Uh. And that's 366 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 1: where they discovered these, um the suspension bridges, achieving spans 367 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: in some places of more than a hundred and fifty 368 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,679 Speaker 1: feet or or forty six meters uh. In Europe, on 369 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:36,919 Speaker 1: the other hand, they wouldn't see Europe wouldn't see its 370 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: first suspension bridge until nearly three hundred years later. So 371 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 1: they were they were building these these grass these fiber 372 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: bridges to connect their highway system. And if you're having 373 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: trouble picturing this, I would recommend looking it up to 374 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:51,160 Speaker 1: see what they look like. Is that you can see 375 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: pictures of them today. But also essentially it's a bridge 376 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: hanging from ropes. Yes, that's what it is. Yeah. And 377 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 1: there is one left in the world. Um, there's I 378 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 1: mean one Inco grass bridge. One one remaining income grass 379 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: a bridge, and it is the Keshua Chaka uh. And 380 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: it's there's like a single Inco bridge keeper named Victoriano 381 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 1: orist Pana who believe it's still alive, still caring for 382 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 1: the bridge. Because that's the other thing. If you're building 383 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:25,199 Speaker 1: your bridge, your bridge system, uh, if you're connecting your 384 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:29,360 Speaker 1: highways with rope bridges, um in a climate like this, 385 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: you have you have to continually care for them, uh, 386 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: with a with a frequency that you maybe don't have 387 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: to to turn to as much with stone bridges. Yeah. 388 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: I was watching a video actually about modern upkeep of 389 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 1: these bridges, and they don't just have to maintain them, 390 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: they have to replace them frequently. So they'll at a 391 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: at a certain period every number of years or something. 392 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: I think maybe depending on the condition of the bridge, 393 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: they'll cut it down and put up a new one. Indeed. 394 00:21:57,560 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: And uh and and of course there are other areas 395 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:03,640 Speaker 1: where uh they're really using these these fiber arts as well. 396 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: So they're they're create creating fiber boats out of reads, 397 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: fiber armor that's uh stronger pound for pound than the 398 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: steel worn by conquistadors, woven slings that could supposedly split 399 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 1: a Spanish sword with the stone that it fired. Uh. 400 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:25,120 Speaker 1: They also had burial and sacrificial textiles. They were also 401 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: quite important, which in a way that gets into our 402 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 1: techno religion episode of of of Your Right, because anytime 403 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,919 Speaker 1: you have a culture that has some sort of technology, 404 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,439 Speaker 1: that technology is of course going to be used for 405 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,880 Speaker 1: religious purposes. Oh, I'm gonna get into that later. And uh, 406 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: textiles are so important. Textiles along with corn, served as 407 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: a kind of currency for paying the soldiers of the empire. 408 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: So you really to the point where you almost cannot 409 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: overstate the importance of textiles and fiber arts and crafts 410 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 1: within the Inca Empire. Yes, but reviewing all of these 411 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 1: massive projects and achievements of this empire, I want to 412 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: come back to that question I started with at the beginning, 413 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: because the traditional understanding is that the Incas did not 414 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 1: have a writing system, and they certainly didn't have a 415 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: graphical writing system. And so if you assume that they 416 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: didn't have a system for notation of words in any 417 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: in any way, these achievements they seem almost impossible to me, 418 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: Like how could it be done without being able to 419 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: write down notes about how things should be carried out? Well, 420 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: it makes you think you're you're sitting that runner off right, 421 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: and you you say them, Hey, I need you to 422 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: tell such and such the next village over. Make sure 423 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: you remember it. Hey, we have all the string around here. 424 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: Type a piece of string around your pinky finger, and 425 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: that'll remind you. So like how far could you extrapolate 426 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:51,880 Speaker 1: that system. You'd run out of fingers, but you still 427 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,880 Speaker 1: have all this string. Yes, And that brings us back 428 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: to the key poos that we're talking about today. Now, 429 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: one of the central themes of this episode is going 430 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,200 Speaker 1: to be talking about the disputes about what is encoded 431 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 1: in the keepos, what kind of information is in there. 432 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,919 Speaker 1: I think what's undisputed is that there is numerical information 433 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,400 Speaker 1: in there, and that the keepos were used to keep 434 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: track of goods and labor in society. So people living 435 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 1: under the Inca Empire might have owed the state X 436 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,399 Speaker 1: the number of days of work every month or something 437 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,679 Speaker 1: like that. How to keep track of the number of 438 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,400 Speaker 1: days you've worked and how many you owe. And then 439 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: also people are organized into labor groups. You need census 440 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 1: data to make organizational decisions about how many people you're 441 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: going to have doing a certain project or available if 442 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,880 Speaker 1: you need them to fight in your army. And then 443 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: of course the Incan engineers and architects needed to be 444 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,360 Speaker 1: able to make notes about the products of calculations used 445 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: in engineering and architecture, and all all these numbers we 446 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 1: now know we're encoded in the keep But is there 447 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: other stuff in them as well? So here here we 448 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 1: should get into what the Spanish colonial authorities had to 449 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: say about that. As we said earlier, for a long time, 450 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 1: pretty much everything we knew about the Incas came from 451 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: written records of the Spanish and that's not a great 452 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: situation to be in, right, You're depending upon the conquerors, 453 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: the alien conquerors, to tell you how these people lived 454 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 1: and and and what they're they're they're not system represented, yeah, 455 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 1: I mean there are, they're just different concerns. The Spanish 456 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: colonists were very concerned about the glory of the Spanish crown, 457 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: with domination, exploitation of resources, spreading their version of Christianity, 458 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 1: so gaining a deep understanding of the existing cultures and 459 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: their technology might not have always been at the forefront 460 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 1: of of their list of priorities, right, Yeah, I mean, 461 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: the the the system itself does not prize that so much. Yeah. 462 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 1: But more recently, physical clues from archaeology have started to 463 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 1: round out our modern understanding of the Incas. I think 464 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 1: we're getting a better and more unbiased idea of what 465 00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: the empire looked like. But there's still so much we 466 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: don't know. Uh. But so what what did the Spanish 467 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 1: chroniclers make of these key poos? Well, one of the 468 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 1: things that I found is a collection of awesome illustrations 469 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: that the Spanish colonists made of the key poos explaining them. 470 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 1: Just a few here from the seventeenth century, one group 471 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: by Guaman Poma de Ayala and another group by Martin 472 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: de Marua. What are we seeing here, Robert, Well, we 473 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 1: are seeing drawings of individuals holding these key poos, which 474 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: look again at times just kind of like mops like that. 475 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 1: They're not the most detailed representations of what's going on, 476 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: I mean, more so in the Marua illustrations than in 477 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: the earlier ones. But but then on the other hand, 478 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 1: you do see an attempt to document and understand what's 479 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: going on with this with this system. Yeah. One example 480 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,400 Speaker 1: is there's it almost looks like a political cartoon. It's 481 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: just sort of a black and white drawing of someone 482 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: in UH with a with a ponytail and UH and 483 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,120 Speaker 1: a tunic of some kind holding one of these keeps. 484 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: And then there's a little sign extending off of it 485 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 1: that has the word for letter in Spanish, indicating that this, 486 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: this collection of strings is a message that's being carried. 487 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 1: So I think this is supposed to be an illustration 488 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 1: of the chats keys, but of course there are written 489 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 1: accounts also. I want to read one quote from the 490 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,199 Speaker 1: Jesuit missionary Jose de Acosta, and this is cited in 491 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: translation in the Encyclopedia of the History of Science, Technology, 492 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: and Medicine and Non Western Cultures edited by Elaine Selene 493 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: and translated by the entry author Molly Tune. So here's 494 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:42,439 Speaker 1: this selection. They are keeps, memorials or events registered in 495 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: strings on which diverse knots and diverse colors meant different things. 496 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: It's incredible what they achieved this way. How much books 497 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: can say about history and laws and ceremonies and business accounts. 498 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: The keepers supply all this so promptly that it's admirable. 499 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 1: In order to have these keep us or memorials, there 500 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: were official representatives that today are called keep who Kamayo, 501 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 1: who were obligated to give accounts of everything like the 502 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: public scribes here, and as such they have to be 503 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:16,439 Speaker 1: given full credit. For diverse genres like war, government, tribute, ceremony, land. 504 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: There were diverse keeps or strings, and in each handling 505 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 1: of these so many knots and intricacies and strings were attached. 506 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: Some were colored, some green, some blue, others white, and 507 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 1: so many differences that, just as we form twenty four 508 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: letters in different ways to make such an infinity of words, 509 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 1: these knots and colors make innumerable meanings of things. And 510 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 1: there there are also stories of keeps being used for 511 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: narrative purposes in other contexts. For example, somebody might be 512 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: in the middle of a court case before before a 513 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: governor and they have to bring a keep who out 514 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: to give testimony in the court. So it's it's serving 515 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: as an official record of transactions or some sort of 516 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 1: business history. The keep who is is is the recorded documents. 517 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 1: So we're seeing the not only the externalization of human thought, uh, 518 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 1: but and not only the use of the keep who 519 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,719 Speaker 1: as a as a way to remember something and convey information, 520 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 1: but just to store it and immortalize it. Yeah. And 521 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: so the question here is can we trust the Spanish 522 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 1: understanding of what they claim to see? I mean, are 523 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: these accounts accurate? Are are the Is it really true 524 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 1: that you could take a keep who and read testimony 525 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: from it? You can take a keep who and read 526 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: histories of governments and uh, and even read religious things, 527 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: ceremonial incantations that read all of these sort of literary 528 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: formats from it, can you fit a history into knots? 529 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: And that's still the question for researchers in this area. 530 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 1: So we'll we'll get into the modern quest to solve 531 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: the mystery of the knots in a moment. At first, 532 00:29:53,520 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 1: we should take a quick break. All right, we're back. 533 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: So we're trying to unlock the mysteries of the key phos. 534 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 1: But one of the problems here, of course, is that 535 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: the Inca Empire is long gone. Most of the key 536 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: phos are long gone as well. Yeah, So after the 537 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: Spanish conquest of the region, the keypoos were just used 538 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: less and less frequently. And there are a bunch of 539 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: reasons for that. There's probably some stigma against it because 540 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: of the cultural power of the Spanish as the colonists. 541 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: They didn't like these things. They thought of them them 542 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: as idolatrous. Uh. And so the Spanish, it is said, 543 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: destroyed a lot of the key poo's intentionally because you know, 544 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 1: they're blasphemy. Uh. Some were also probably destroyed by the 545 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: Incas themselves during their own Civil War. Many others were 546 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: simply lost to time, like these are not stone carvings, 547 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 1: these are textiles, and there you know, they can be 548 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: subject to the elements. And so almost all of the 549 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: key woos we have available to archaeology today come from 550 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: graves that we've opened up, or come from private collections 551 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: that or museums, and they're originally of unknown origin. We 552 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,719 Speaker 1: don't know where they come from, so it can be 553 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: difficult to figure out what the keep who was supposed 554 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: to mean in its original context. We don't have the contacts, 555 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 1: we don't have the uh, we don't have the record 556 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: keeper to to tell us what the notations are referring to. Yeah, 557 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: and so we're back to that big question. Are these 558 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: only numbers? Are they only the raw data sheets for 559 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 1: imperial accounting? Or do they contain words and calendars and 560 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 1: genealogies and astronomy and royal history and literature and even 561 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 1: poems and songs? Uh and so many. For many years, 562 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 1: scholars all knew that these systems of chords and knots 563 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 1: were used for some kind of notation, but they were 564 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 1: not able to translate or decode them, and eventually, in 565 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: the first half of the twentieth century. That changed because 566 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: a scholar named Leland Locke demonstrated conclusively to the academic 567 00:31:55,040 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 1: community that the chords carried NW miracle messages in decimal form. However, 568 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 1: Locke argued that these knots were used for purely numerical purposes, 569 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: and so he was saying that, look, and we can 570 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: show how these things work to calculate numbers and to 571 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 1: transmit numbers, and that's all they do. Uh, And this 572 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: remained the dominant thinking for a long time. Most scholars 573 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: were convinced by Locke's point of view that these didn't 574 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 1: have they didn't have stories in them, they didn't have 575 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: words in the literature. But then, of course, and as 576 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: we get into the bias or just approaching this with 577 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 1: it with our own written language so firmly ingrained in 578 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: our minds exactly. So to answer this question, I think 579 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 1: we should start by looking at how you read a 580 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: keep you, and we should just start with the numbers, 581 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 1: because that's what everybody agrees is there. How do you 582 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 1: read the numbers on a keep you? Well, we have 583 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 1: we have a pretty good understanding of the numerical notation system, 584 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: and I want to give a brief explanation that I 585 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: got from a presentation given by a researcher named Gary Earton, 586 00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,240 Speaker 1: and Earton is one of the foremost keepe researchers in 587 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: the world. His name comes up a lot if you're 588 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 1: reading about this subject. And Urton says that the keeping 589 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 1: was probably the principal instrument of management of the Inca Empire, 590 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 1: and it was used to manage numbers in the following way. 591 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 1: So picture you're keeping again. Put it up in your mind. 592 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: You've got the big primary string hanging horizontally, and then 593 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: down from that or your pendant strings with knots on 594 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 1: them in different places. So the Inca is as we've said, 595 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: they had a decimal number system that's a base ten 596 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 1: counting system is just like ours. And the way the 597 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 1: strings work is the placement of the knot on the 598 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: string represents number places in the same way we represent 599 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: them by the order of writing. So think of the 600 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: number five dred and thirty seven. You see that number 601 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 1: written down and you instantly know what it means because 602 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 1: the number the farthest to the right is the ones 603 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 1: place there are seven ones, and then the second most 604 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: to the right is the tens place there are three tens, 605 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 1: and then the number of farthest from the right is 606 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 1: the hundreds place, and there are five hundreds, so it's 607 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: five dred and thirty seven. And there's a very similar 608 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 1: placement system with the kypoos, except it goes from the 609 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: bottom of the string to the top, so not at 610 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,320 Speaker 1: the bottom of the string represents a value of one 611 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 1: the ones place, the next space of the string represents 612 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 1: a value of the tens place, and so on like that, 613 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,400 Speaker 1: and then different types of knots represented different values in 614 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,400 Speaker 1: those numeral places. So yeah, we can all easily imagine that, 615 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 1: I think, and certainly you can look at some of 616 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,800 Speaker 1: the visual aids as well, um knots in the string 617 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:39,239 Speaker 1: representing numbers coming together to represent larger numbers. Yeah, and 618 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:41,520 Speaker 1: there are some variations, but that's the gist of it. 619 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 1: And we can be confident that we're reading the strings 620 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: correctly because sometimes the strings are summed by other strings. 621 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 1: This is one of the things leland Lock showed, So 622 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,239 Speaker 1: that there might be, for example, four pendant strings, and 623 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: then the primary string shows a number that happens to 624 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: be the sum of all of the pendant strings put together. 625 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,799 Speaker 1: So that would be very very unlikely to happen if 626 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 1: that were not, if we were not reading the numbers correctly. 627 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 1: But even with the numerical notation, there's a question. Let's 628 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 1: say you're looking at to keep you. You You gotta keep 629 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 1: it in your hands, and it might smell kind of moldy, 630 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: and it's this ancient thing, and you figure out by 631 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:20,759 Speaker 1: adding up the knots on it, you you figure out 632 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 1: how to read the not placement, and there's six and 633 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:28,839 Speaker 1: sixty seven of something? What is the something? Is there 634 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: more information to get out of a keep you, even 635 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 1: if it's just meant for numerical notation, as the traditional 636 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 1: hypothesis holds. And so one hypothesis is that the colors 637 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,439 Speaker 1: of the chords means something. So maybe a chord that's 638 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 1: red colored means, uh, some number of corn ears of corn, 639 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,919 Speaker 1: and then uh, the chord that's a different color means 640 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 1: some number of peanuts or something, because I mean the 641 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: other idea would be that it would depend entirely upon 642 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 1: the context that was known by the holder of the 643 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 1: keep it, And that is something that has been hypothesized 644 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: as well. For example, some people might say that the 645 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 1: keep who would require specially trained people to keep track 646 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 1: of an orally transmit contextual information about the keypoo. So, 647 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 1: for example, these chatskys the runners uh. The idea is 648 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,239 Speaker 1: that the runners would deliver the keeps for numerical data, 649 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 1: but they would also orally relay messages contextualizing the numbers, 650 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:28,240 Speaker 1: so that handoff to keep you to you it's sixty seven, 651 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 1: and they say, this is the number of times the 652 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: emperor is going to kick you in the face if 653 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,239 Speaker 1: you don't do what he says, or or this is 654 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 1: the number of ears of corn he'll give you if 655 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,800 Speaker 1: something if you do what he wants. So in this model, 656 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 1: the keep who would not be say a a a 657 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 1: more primitive substitute for written language. It would be a 658 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 1: notation system that does not in and of itself tell 659 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 1: the story or tell the complete data it relies to 660 00:36:54,200 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 1: upon the narration and or interpretation of another human. Yes, exactly, 661 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:01,919 Speaker 1: and this is something that also might have been done 662 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: by these people called the keepu kama yuk, the not 663 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,680 Speaker 1: keepers who were talked about by the Spanish, who specialized 664 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: in creating and reading the keepoo. So these were like 665 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 1: the scribes who would be called if you needed to 666 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,280 Speaker 1: keep you read in court to give testimony, the scribe 667 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 1: would come out and explain what the keep who said. 668 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,239 Speaker 1: So the idea here could be that, well, maybe some 669 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,360 Speaker 1: of the information isn't in the keep who, it's in 670 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,439 Speaker 1: the scribe, and the scribe knows, okay, this keep who 671 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 1: means X, Y and z. So there's the possibility that 672 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,280 Speaker 1: the idea is just sort of hard coded numerical data 673 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 1: with oral metadata. Okay. But then back to your point though, 674 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:43,799 Speaker 1: that we do see colors, we do see other differences 675 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 1: that go beyond the mere knots right, yes exactly. And 676 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 1: one other very interesting fact speaking to the BBC in 677 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 1: two thousand three that scholar I mentioned earlier, Gary Earton 678 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,440 Speaker 1: gave this figure that's kind of interesting. About two thirds 679 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:00,439 Speaker 1: of the known keep you at that time. That number 680 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 1: might have changed somewhat since then, but about two thirds 681 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,319 Speaker 1: of them back then obviously consisted of numerical figures. They 682 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,799 Speaker 1: fit the standard scholarly model. You can look at the 683 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,360 Speaker 1: numbers and just count up numbers. But what about the 684 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 1: other one third. There's this other group of keypoos that 685 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:20,240 Speaker 1: we have available to archaeologists that don't obviously just transmit 686 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:25,319 Speaker 1: numerical information. So what's going on with them? Are they 687 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:29,359 Speaker 1: saying something, And that's the big question that scholars are 688 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 1: still trying to answer today. So one of the biggest 689 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 1: steps towards discovering the other information contained in the keypoo, 690 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,600 Speaker 1: if there is such information, is the creation of a 691 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 1: standardized computer database of keypoo descriptions, because it's very hard, 692 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 1: you know, like you don't know what information is relevant. 693 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,280 Speaker 1: So you're looking at a bunch of textile woven stuff 694 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 1: and you're like, well, this one has kind of a 695 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,840 Speaker 1: fraight end. Is that something? Could that mean something? Or 696 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,480 Speaker 1: is that just how it is? And this one has 697 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 1: an overhand not, this one has an underhand not in 698 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 1: the same place. Is that meaningful? Is that coding some 699 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,800 Speaker 1: kind of something that would means means something makes sense? 700 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,800 Speaker 1: Or is it just an accident. So having a standardized 701 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:13,200 Speaker 1: database of descriptions, including basically all of the relevant information 702 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 1: that you can state about these strings, allows people to 703 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,800 Speaker 1: cross reference them and look for patterns, and especially allows 704 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 1: computer programs to look for patterns and the strings and knots, 705 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:28,240 Speaker 1: because patterns are often the key to translation. For example, 706 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,280 Speaker 1: if you see a very commonly repeated pattern in something, 707 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:33,799 Speaker 1: even if you have no idea what the pattern means 708 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,920 Speaker 1: you might start by assuming it represents a common word 709 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:39,360 Speaker 1: like the name of an emperor or the name of 710 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:43,000 Speaker 1: a capital city or something like that. And so researchers 711 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,359 Speaker 1: have been doing this. Actually more than a decade ago. 712 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 1: Harvard University researchers Gary Earton and Carrie Braziine started doing 713 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 1: computer analysis of KEEPU and in two thousand five they 714 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 1: published research suggesting that introductory chords on some of these 715 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: keep who might serve as topa nims, which would be 716 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 1: like location tags that would be the name of a 717 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:07,400 Speaker 1: place to show where keep you came from or what 718 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 1: community a concern. And if this is correct, this means that, Okay, 719 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:15,040 Speaker 1: we definitely know there's some kind of notation in these 720 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,240 Speaker 1: strings other than mere numbers the name of a place, 721 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 1: and if there's a name of a place, there could 722 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 1: be other words, right m. That's interesting. Um. Yeah, And 723 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,440 Speaker 1: especially again if you think back to the INCA is 724 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:32,200 Speaker 1: just is having such a an expertise and textiles likes 725 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:37,320 Speaker 1: textiles are going to speak to their their masters, perhaps 726 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,400 Speaker 1: in a way that they're just not going to speak 727 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,319 Speaker 1: to a modern observer, even a modern observer who has 728 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:47,200 Speaker 1: immersed themselves in the topic uh. And I also have 729 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:51,400 Speaker 1: to say that the idea of a modern computer essentially 730 00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 1: speaking or attempting to speak and communicate with this older 731 00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:00,880 Speaker 1: form of notation, this older informational system, is just really 732 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:05,360 Speaker 1: mind boggling. I love, I just loved to to envision it. Yeah, 733 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,840 Speaker 1: it's it's really interesting. And there's another really interesting development 734 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 1: this is actually reading this story is what made me 735 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:13,760 Speaker 1: want to do this episode, that there's a very recent 736 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,040 Speaker 1: discovery that might help us crack the code. It might 737 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:21,280 Speaker 1: give us a foothold into looking for the Rosetta stone 738 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:25,279 Speaker 1: of the Keepo. So the discovery was that there's an 739 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:28,719 Speaker 1: archaeological site about a hundred miles south of Lima, Peru, 740 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,840 Speaker 1: and it's called Incahuas. And at the site, excavators found 741 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:36,560 Speaker 1: a collection of keeps in their original place of use. 742 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 1: If you want to look this up, there's a great 743 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,239 Speaker 1: New York Times article on it called Untangling, an accounting 744 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:46,080 Speaker 1: tool and an ancient Incan mystery from January. So the 745 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:49,600 Speaker 1: keepoos in their original place of use, it was a 746 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,839 Speaker 1: storage facility for food crops. So they've got foods. They're 747 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:58,960 Speaker 1: like peppers, corn beans, peanuts, and remnants of many of 748 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,440 Speaker 1: these foods have been preserved by the arid climate of 749 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,200 Speaker 1: the site, so we can still tell what crops were 750 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,480 Speaker 1: where in the storehouse. And this is significant because, as 751 00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:11,359 Speaker 1: we said before, most keepoos today they don't come from 752 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,840 Speaker 1: their original context. They were buried in a grave with somebody, 753 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,520 Speaker 1: or they came from somebody's private collection, and we don't 754 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 1: know where they originally came from or what they might 755 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 1: have meant. So here we can see keepos along with 756 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:25,880 Speaker 1: the quantities they're supposed to be counting six hundred and 757 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,880 Speaker 1: sixty seven, some things become six hundred and sixty seven 758 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:35,399 Speaker 1: baskets of peanuts. And using this contextual information, archaeologists can 759 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:39,400 Speaker 1: look for physical signifiers in the keepoos like extra naots 760 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:43,239 Speaker 1: are not orientation or string color that might correlate with 761 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,719 Speaker 1: what's being counted. Has something to say that this was 762 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:49,800 Speaker 1: not six hundred and sixty seven peanuts, but six hundred 763 00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:53,719 Speaker 1: sixty seven uh um, you know, bundles of peanuts or 764 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,960 Speaker 1: something there was there was some other detail that defines 765 00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,360 Speaker 1: exactly what it's saying. And so if they can find 766 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,800 Speaker 1: such detai ails that might correlate with what's being counted, 767 00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:04,600 Speaker 1: and like I said, give us a foot in the 768 00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:08,759 Speaker 1: door to start understanding non numerical information hidden in the 769 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:12,279 Speaker 1: strings that we couldn't understand before. But I do want 770 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,239 Speaker 1: to also qualify it. Gary Urton, that same scholar he's 771 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:19,239 Speaker 1: quoted in the article, and he he says it's not 772 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:22,719 Speaker 1: quite the perfect Rosetta Stone yet. So if there are 773 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,799 Speaker 1: any linguistic narratives waiting in the undiscovered deciphered keeps, we 774 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:30,200 Speaker 1: haven't found the perfect key to decoding them yet. But 775 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:32,960 Speaker 1: that made me wonder what would be the jackpot find 776 00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,600 Speaker 1: what what is exactly what we'd like to find to 777 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:40,320 Speaker 1: figure out if they're literary histories and poems and stuff 778 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:42,480 Speaker 1: like that in the keep boos and I found a 779 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:45,040 Speaker 1: pretty good answer to this. In a two thousand three 780 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:49,320 Speaker 1: newspiece for the Journal Science, Charles C. Man Uh offered 781 00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:51,719 Speaker 1: that the best case scenario would be to discover a 782 00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:56,680 Speaker 1: Spanish colonial translation of a known keep oo, and then 783 00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:59,040 Speaker 1: we really would have something like the Rosetta Stone. So 784 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:02,880 Speaker 1: the Rosetta Stone helped us discover how to translate hieroglyphics 785 00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,840 Speaker 1: by having the same document in hieroglyphics and then in 786 00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:07,880 Speaker 1: Greek right next to it. So what we need is 787 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:13,560 Speaker 1: a contemporary translation where um, where a Spaniard essentially set 788 00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,200 Speaker 1: down and said, hey, explain to me what this keep 789 00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:18,560 Speaker 1: who is saying, Show me what this keep who is saying, 790 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,040 Speaker 1: and then him recording yeah and so, And we would 791 00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:23,200 Speaker 1: also have to have access to what the keep who was, 792 00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:25,640 Speaker 1: you know, to actually have the keep who still or 793 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,560 Speaker 1: to have a complex description of what was on it. Okay, 794 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:31,880 Speaker 1: So both of these things have to survive, have to 795 00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:35,640 Speaker 1: have existed and to have survived. But if we had 796 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,880 Speaker 1: such a thing, we could form the basis of Alexicon. Unfortunately, 797 00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:42,920 Speaker 1: we don't think there's anything like that, unless I should 798 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:46,799 Speaker 1: mention that I should mention this though it's a kind 799 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:56,840 Speaker 1: of iffy road to go down. So there is one 800 00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:00,560 Speaker 1: set of colonial documents out there, or claimed colonial documents, 801 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,880 Speaker 1: produced by the Neapolitan amateur historian Clara Michinelli in the 802 00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:09,320 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties, which claims to include an original historical account 803 00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:12,200 Speaker 1: of the literary contents of Keepu. And so it explains 804 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,680 Speaker 1: that some keep us contain a secret phonetic rendering of 805 00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:19,520 Speaker 1: the Andean language Quechua, which you mentioned earlier. And they 806 00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:23,000 Speaker 1: say certain physical markers on the strings represent syllables of 807 00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:25,799 Speaker 1: the language. So that would be actual phonetic language, not 808 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,720 Speaker 1: just not like a symbol, not like a not means 809 00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,200 Speaker 1: a word, but like a certain symbol on the rope 810 00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:34,880 Speaker 1: means a sound that you make with your mouth. So 811 00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:37,680 Speaker 1: what's the problem with this document? Well, if it were true, 812 00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:41,320 Speaker 1: would be a huge discovery. But um, but this collection 813 00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,160 Speaker 1: of documents has been regarded with what I would describe 814 00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,840 Speaker 1: as serious skepticism by the scholars I was reading. I 815 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,960 Speaker 1: haven't seen any Indian scholars talking about it in recent publications. 816 00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,960 Speaker 1: Almost everything that mentions it says, I don't know, this 817 00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:59,400 Speaker 1: looks kind of iffy. Um. So it doesn't seem to 818 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,880 Speaker 1: me like the academic community is persuaded that these documents 819 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,839 Speaker 1: hold any value. They might be forgeries, or they might 820 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:10,319 Speaker 1: the documents might be really historical, but they might have 821 00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:13,360 Speaker 1: been forged at the time they were created. But if 822 00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,360 Speaker 1: you want to learn more about that, you can google 823 00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:18,839 Speaker 1: the Mitchinelli documents or the Naples documents and that will 824 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:21,759 Speaker 1: turn up some leads for you. So the mystery of 825 00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:27,040 Speaker 1: whatever literary content the keep Whos contain is still a mystery. 826 00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:29,080 Speaker 1: We we don't have the answer yet. Who know, we 827 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:31,799 Speaker 1: may never have the answer, or we may find out 828 00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:35,160 Speaker 1: that you know what it's all, it's all just numerical notation. 829 00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:37,680 Speaker 1: In fact, there is no literary content there. But I 830 00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:40,200 Speaker 1: hope that's not the case, because it really would be 831 00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:44,160 Speaker 1: amazing to suddenly uncover the meaning of of all these 832 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:48,560 Speaker 1: documents that contain the history we never got from the Spanish. Yeah, 833 00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:52,160 Speaker 1: and you know, you you want that culture to still 834 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,480 Speaker 1: have a voice in our world despite um what was 835 00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:58,000 Speaker 1: done to eradicated and that that also gets to another 836 00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,759 Speaker 1: UM area here is that and and one of the 837 00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:06,560 Speaker 1: other just huge tragedies of of any of the American cultures, 838 00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,680 Speaker 1: UM is that we will never know where they would 839 00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:13,960 Speaker 1: have gone. What would would they would have developed into 840 00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:19,000 Speaker 1: without this outside context event of the of the of 841 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:22,680 Speaker 1: the colonial invasion. Yeah, yeah, I mean, what would the 842 00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:25,399 Speaker 1: income culture have looked like a few hundred years down 843 00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:28,759 Speaker 1: the road if not for the introduction of of smallpox 844 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,920 Speaker 1: and the Christian mission and and the and the military 845 00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:35,319 Speaker 1: conquest of the Spanish. It's hard to say, but it 846 00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,480 Speaker 1: would have been fascinating to learn that. Yeah, Because fortunately 847 00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:41,799 Speaker 1: we can look back to other physical notation systems in 848 00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:45,239 Speaker 1: history and we can actually see how they developed and 849 00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:48,520 Speaker 1: look at how they seem to have played into the 850 00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:51,640 Speaker 1: development of written language and uh and and and in 851 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:54,919 Speaker 1: numbers as well. Yes, exactly. So if you do think 852 00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:58,520 Speaker 1: of of one possibility about the keep, who's being a 853 00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:01,520 Speaker 1: sort of proto writing system them, Like maybe it wasn't 854 00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:05,759 Speaker 1: fully able to communicate literary content yet, but it had 855 00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:08,960 Speaker 1: some literary content, Like it had some words, but not 856 00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:13,520 Speaker 1: the whole language I presented. Uh. That has some parallels 857 00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:16,919 Speaker 1: that we know about from other times and places in history. Yeah, 858 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:22,160 Speaker 1: particularly if we go back to uh Neolithic Mesopotamia. Particularly, 859 00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:25,560 Speaker 1: we're going back to around uh uh seven thousand, five 860 00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:28,239 Speaker 1: hundred b C. And this is where we saw the 861 00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:32,840 Speaker 1: use of clay tokens in accounting. So these were clay 862 00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:36,440 Speaker 1: tokens and they were inscribed with recorded information about traded 863 00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:40,000 Speaker 1: agricultural goods. We see the use of small geometric clay 864 00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:42,560 Speaker 1: objects throughout the Near East in this period, and it's 865 00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:45,400 Speaker 1: all serving as as ultimately as a precursor to writing 866 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,520 Speaker 1: in mathematics, so this is trying sort of like the 867 00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:51,839 Speaker 1: traditional understanding of the numerical keypoo. It's trying to it's 868 00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:55,120 Speaker 1: trying to use a notation system without writing yet. And 869 00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:59,320 Speaker 1: of course in both cases, agricultural is is tremendously important 870 00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,720 Speaker 1: both to the inc and to the the ancient Mesopotamians, 871 00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:05,520 Speaker 1: because remember, it wasn't just that we learned to cultivate 872 00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:09,680 Speaker 1: crops and domesticate animals. These technological advancements change the shape 873 00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:12,240 Speaker 1: in the scope of human life. It demanded new systems 874 00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:15,160 Speaker 1: of thought, and the clay tokens were a part of this. Yeah, 875 00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:17,600 Speaker 1: I would say one thing that seems significant with the 876 00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:21,359 Speaker 1: introduction of agriculture and domesticated animals is that you're not 877 00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:24,480 Speaker 1: concerned with what you're eating today. You're dincerned with all 878 00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:28,239 Speaker 1: the things you have available to eat in the future exactly. Yeah. 879 00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:31,400 Speaker 1: So with the with the earlier tokens, it's a pretty 880 00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:33,759 Speaker 1: basic model. The more primitive tokens, you have like a 881 00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,920 Speaker 1: token with a sheep on it, and that play picture 882 00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:38,680 Speaker 1: of a sheep. Yeah, a little picture of a sheet, 883 00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:42,000 Speaker 1: and that means, hey, this represents one sheep, and that 884 00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:46,400 Speaker 1: is essentially a pictogram, all right, you have a symbol 885 00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:49,319 Speaker 1: that represents the thing that it is. So like if 886 00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:50,920 Speaker 1: you have a picture of a dog, that is a 887 00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:55,600 Speaker 1: pictogram representing a dog. But then the tokens uh get 888 00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:59,080 Speaker 1: more complicated to begin to represent multiple items Uh. So 889 00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:02,600 Speaker 1: you might have a token that would have multiple sheep 890 00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:04,839 Speaker 1: on it, and that would represent multiple sheep the number 891 00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:08,080 Speaker 1: of sheep represented there. What if you just sort of 892 00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:12,160 Speaker 1: like drew extra sheep on it. Well, that we will 893 00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:13,880 Speaker 1: get into some of that, because that would be that 894 00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:17,640 Speaker 1: would be wrong, that would be counterfeiting. Joe, um that 895 00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:19,840 Speaker 1: you know. It's the city's developed. You get more and 896 00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:23,080 Speaker 1: more complex tokens, tokens that they are not only representing 897 00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:26,600 Speaker 1: more of one item, but are essentially breaking off from 898 00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:29,279 Speaker 1: the idea of a mere pictograph to the idea of 899 00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:32,840 Speaker 1: an or pictogram to an ideogram, which is a symbol 900 00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:36,120 Speaker 1: that represents an idea. Okay, so there's a level of 901 00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:39,399 Speaker 1: abstraction there, right. Like a classic example of this would 902 00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:41,520 Speaker 1: be to go back to the dog. Picture of a dog. 903 00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:44,360 Speaker 1: It's a pictogram or a pictograph representing the dog, but 904 00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:46,120 Speaker 1: a picture of a dog with a circle and a 905 00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:49,160 Speaker 1: slash through it, that of course means no dogs. And 906 00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:52,080 Speaker 1: that's a rather simple thing. But it's it's the next 907 00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:56,279 Speaker 1: step in uh in in in symbolic representation. Yeah, it 908 00:50:56,320 --> 00:51:00,840 Speaker 1: makes sense, introduces abstract negation. Yeah, it's so these were 909 00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:03,880 Speaker 1: used for these clay tokens were used for trading and 910 00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:07,960 Speaker 1: record keeping. They were strung on strings. In some cases, 911 00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:11,160 Speaker 1: each end of the string attached to a clay bullet 912 00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:14,600 Speaker 1: that was that sealed the deal, so that this would 913 00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:16,920 Speaker 1: keep you from from tampering with it. So you have 914 00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:20,240 Speaker 1: like six sheep you put and that's that's the number 915 00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,399 Speaker 1: of sheep involved in this deal or whatever. Uh. Then 916 00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:26,320 Speaker 1: you join the strings. You see it with clay, nobody 917 00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,160 Speaker 1: can take any tokens off or put them on. You 918 00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:32,959 Speaker 1: can't cheat by adding beads exactly. Um. Then they also 919 00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:37,880 Speaker 1: had another system where they stored the tokens and clay envelopes. Uh. 920 00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:39,799 Speaker 1: But then, of course one of the idea the things 921 00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:42,120 Speaker 1: here is you put the toke clay tokens inside a 922 00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:44,680 Speaker 1: clay structure. How do you know what's in there? Well, 923 00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:47,480 Speaker 1: you take but before you seal it all up, you 924 00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:51,240 Speaker 1: take the tokens and use them to to to mark 925 00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,919 Speaker 1: the outside of the clay envelope so that people will 926 00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:57,520 Speaker 1: know exactly what's in there. So but then again you 927 00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:00,799 Speaker 1: have a sealed record of something, you know. All of 928 00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:04,720 Speaker 1: this discussion makes me think about a really interesting concept 929 00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:06,800 Speaker 1: that I'd like to do a full episode on sometime, 930 00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:10,520 Speaker 1: which is how physical writing systems affect the way we think. 931 00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:13,760 Speaker 1: I I know there are a few studies along these lines, 932 00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:16,440 Speaker 1: Like one of the things I read, uh, just poking 933 00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:19,239 Speaker 1: around real quick on this subject, is about how the 934 00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:23,560 Speaker 1: direction of a writing system changes how we envision the 935 00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:27,399 Speaker 1: passage of time. That's just one simple example, but I'm 936 00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:29,399 Speaker 1: sure there are tons of examples. If you're if you're 937 00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:32,320 Speaker 1: a literate person and you interact with reading and writing 938 00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:36,120 Speaker 1: on a frequent basis, I think that probably has some 939 00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:39,080 Speaker 1: effect on how you interact with the world, on how 940 00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:43,719 Speaker 1: your mind perceives, especially abstract concepts. So the question I 941 00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:48,840 Speaker 1: have is because almost everybody today who who is literate, 942 00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:52,360 Speaker 1: who uses reading and writing, uses graphical reading and writing 943 00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:55,480 Speaker 1: markings on a page. Now, you might have some differences 944 00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:58,040 Speaker 1: in that, like maybe writing that goes from right to 945 00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:00,440 Speaker 1: left or from left to right. That's one thing you 946 00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:03,200 Speaker 1: could look at. But how would it change the way 947 00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:07,360 Speaker 1: your mind interacts with the world if your physical notation 948 00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:11,239 Speaker 1: system of reality is based in strings instead of in 949 00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:15,719 Speaker 1: making marketings on a page. Indeed, yeah, we've touring clay tokens. Yeah, 950 00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:18,440 Speaker 1: how does that? How does that change the way you 951 00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:21,680 Speaker 1: you think about the world talk about the world. Um, 952 00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:24,960 Speaker 1: do you live in a world of had just trying 953 00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:29,640 Speaker 1: to imagine the income mind set where agriculture and textiles 954 00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:32,680 Speaker 1: are such an important aspect of your world? And then 955 00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:37,919 Speaker 1: then how are they they informing your view of reality itself? Yeah? 956 00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:40,600 Speaker 1: I would I would love to see the sort of 957 00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:45,440 Speaker 1: the differences in imaginations, say, uh, that are present between 958 00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:49,000 Speaker 1: a person who uses standard graphical writing systems and someone 959 00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:52,640 Speaker 1: who is maybe a novelist who works in strings with 960 00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:55,400 Speaker 1: Would that change how the way a novel unfurls, the 961 00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:58,759 Speaker 1: way the story is told. Yeah, Like just thinking back 962 00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:02,560 Speaker 1: to what we're talking about earlier, about the wandering God 963 00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:06,600 Speaker 1: of the of the incas uh verra coca um? Did 964 00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:10,719 Speaker 1: he you know, in sort of modern Western ideas of 965 00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:12,360 Speaker 1: a god. Sometimes you hear, you know about like the 966 00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:14,120 Speaker 1: Book of God, right, and he has a book and 967 00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,480 Speaker 1: he's writing people's names in it. So did did this 968 00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:20,359 Speaker 1: god of the inca, the wandering god? Did he have 969 00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:23,279 Speaker 1: a keepu? And then what what did he consist of? 970 00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:27,080 Speaker 1: What kind of information would be uh bound up in its? Not? Oh? 971 00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:30,200 Speaker 1: No is? Yeah? Is your name written or not written? 972 00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:34,280 Speaker 1: Is your name tied in the keep? Who of life. Yeah. Um, 973 00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:36,160 Speaker 1: and you know another area where all this talk of 974 00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:40,440 Speaker 1: clay tokens and keep wus uh and and and written language. 975 00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:43,319 Speaker 1: Another air with this, Uh, I can't help but think 976 00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:48,880 Speaker 1: about is our increasing use of emoticons, emojis and also 977 00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:54,440 Speaker 1: just memes and gifts to convey our emotional responses to 978 00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:59,919 Speaker 1: uh two different scenarios and bits of information on the Internet. Yeah. Well, 979 00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:02,439 Speaker 1: I mean one of the things that's that's true about 980 00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:04,720 Speaker 1: memes is that many of them are linguistic in nature, 981 00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:08,239 Speaker 1: so they'll have text on them plenty, aren't plenty or 982 00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:11,880 Speaker 1: just pictures you know, reaction gifts. Yeah, it's huge on 983 00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:14,200 Speaker 1: the Internet. Yeah, like the I mean, it's kind of 984 00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:17,360 Speaker 1: exploded into its own thing. But the whole John Travolta 985 00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:20,560 Speaker 1: wandering into a room confused. There's no text there, but 986 00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:24,640 Speaker 1: it conveys a little something more than merely Hey, I 987 00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:27,440 Speaker 1: don't understand, more than just putting a row of question 988 00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:32,160 Speaker 1: marks in response to something. Right. Yes, Um, there's actually 989 00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:34,799 Speaker 1: a brilliant uh short. I don't know if you've seen 990 00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:38,040 Speaker 1: this yet, but it air on the Colbert Show. Yeah, 991 00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:40,640 Speaker 1: you sent it to me, and it was it's like 992 00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:43,960 Speaker 1: a little skit and the idea is that Facebook is 993 00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:48,560 Speaker 1: rolling out an additional features as as a follow up 994 00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:51,200 Speaker 1: to their reactions deal where you know, the reactions thing, 995 00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:53,640 Speaker 1: of course, is where they took the thumbs up and 996 00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:56,160 Speaker 1: they augmented it so you can do, uh like a 997 00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:59,840 Speaker 1: heart or an angry face and a few others. I'm laughing. Yeah, 998 00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:03,200 Speaker 1: so they were this us get involved. Facebook rolling out 999 00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:07,640 Speaker 1: something called Facebook Alpha, which is essentially them recreating the 1000 00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:10,000 Speaker 1: use of of the alpha bad saying hey, we have 1001 00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,240 Speaker 1: we have these all these Each one of these stands 1002 00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:16,640 Speaker 1: for a different part of a word, symbols that you 1003 00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:19,840 Speaker 1: can now use to show your reactions to things. Yeah, 1004 00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:22,000 Speaker 1: I loved out. They were like, you can in fact 1005 00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:26,160 Speaker 1: represent the entire works of Shakespeare sing only these twenty 1006 00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:29,480 Speaker 1: six symbols. Yeah. So I'll have to link to that 1007 00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:31,160 Speaker 1: on the landing page for this episode of Stuff to 1008 00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:33,000 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind dot com, because if you haven't seen it, 1009 00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,000 Speaker 1: it's a not only is it a wonderful sind up 1010 00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:39,480 Speaker 1: of emoji culture, uh, it also ties into some of 1011 00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:41,960 Speaker 1: the origins of written language and some of the earlier 1012 00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:45,480 Speaker 1: notation systems that we're talking about here. Yeah, there's one 1013 00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:47,880 Speaker 1: more interesting fact I want to get to before we 1014 00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:50,399 Speaker 1: finish out is that I don't know if you've got 1015 00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:52,200 Speaker 1: a chance to read about this, but there are some 1016 00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:55,360 Speaker 1: keep who's still in use in modern times. Uh. And 1017 00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:57,640 Speaker 1: so you would be thinking like, oh, well, if there 1018 00:56:57,640 --> 00:56:59,840 Speaker 1: are people who know how to, you know, write in 1019 00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:01,799 Speaker 1: the language of keep us today, why don't we just 1020 00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:05,400 Speaker 1: ask them to translate. That's not exactly how they're used today. 1021 00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:09,640 Speaker 1: Instead of being used for literature record keeping, they're used 1022 00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:12,960 Speaker 1: for ritual power. So the example I read about was 1023 00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:17,640 Speaker 1: a University College London project page about how in the 1024 00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:21,000 Speaker 1: Peruvian and East there's this mountain community called San Cristobal 1025 00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:25,160 Speaker 1: de Rapas, and within this village, in a protected ceremonial 1026 00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:29,120 Speaker 1: building known as a CA Hawaii, the villagers have been 1027 00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:34,520 Speaker 1: keeping this gigantic keepu object for ritual and ceremonial use. 1028 00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:38,080 Speaker 1: And this one giant object is believed to be collected 1029 00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:41,000 Speaker 1: from a large number of smaller keep you over the years. 1030 00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:43,160 Speaker 1: Some parts of it are older than others, some might 1031 00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:46,160 Speaker 1: be more recent. But what really struck me is the 1032 00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:48,080 Speaker 1: way it was used. And I want to read a 1033 00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:52,640 Speaker 1: quote from this UCL project page where they say a 1034 00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:56,040 Speaker 1: number of rituals happen inside the CA Hawaii. Their most 1035 00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:59,960 Speaker 1: important aspect is labuskada del tiempo, which could be trans 1036 00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:02,920 Speaker 1: slated the search for weather. When the mountains are invoked 1037 00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:07,600 Speaker 1: to bring rain, participants bring offerings like oils, ray wains, 1038 00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:13,520 Speaker 1: which is crop offerings, coca leaves, kunuk, incense, tobacco, liqueurs, flowers, 1039 00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:17,120 Speaker 1: guinea pigs, et cetera. And the main ritual is the 1040 00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:21,280 Speaker 1: ray Wan Intrego, which happens on the second night of January. 1041 00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:24,200 Speaker 1: At this time, the members of the committee that oversees 1042 00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:27,920 Speaker 1: the use of the pastures around Rapause are rotated. The 1043 00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:32,360 Speaker 1: keepu are not handled, they're only invoked. Their presence is 1044 00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:36,640 Speaker 1: considered beneficial to the rituals themselves and to the success 1045 00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:40,480 Speaker 1: of the political changeover. So this makes me think about 1046 00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:44,240 Speaker 1: in what ways the functional technologies of one era become 1047 00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:47,200 Speaker 1: the holy relics of the next, Like which of our 1048 00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:51,760 Speaker 1: functional technologies could become an item of religious significance in 1049 00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:53,760 Speaker 1: the future. That this would be sort of like if 1050 00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:58,880 Speaker 1: if our Excel spreadsheets became holy objects in the future, 1051 00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:02,720 Speaker 1: or or if you take the the the hypothesis that 1052 00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:05,880 Speaker 1: there's more literary information in the keypoos even if our 1053 00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:09,480 Speaker 1: you know, books or something even if we couldn't read them, 1054 00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:13,080 Speaker 1: we just had books put up somewhere as holy objects. 1055 00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:15,720 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean this gets right into the subject 1056 00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:19,560 Speaker 1: of grimoires that that covered with the Christian about a 1057 00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:24,320 Speaker 1: year back, where the book becomes uh more important as 1058 00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:28,720 Speaker 1: a symbolic representation of the data within it and the 1059 00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:31,000 Speaker 1: power within it and the meaning with it and as 1060 00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:35,120 Speaker 1: opposed to just a mirror, um, you know, physical record 1061 00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:38,280 Speaker 1: of the thing. Yeah. Once again we're seeing this fascinating 1062 00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:42,520 Speaker 1: line that runs right through between the sort of mundane 1063 00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:46,480 Speaker 1: usage of technology to the holy power of religion and 1064 00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:50,160 Speaker 1: all of the symbolic territory in between. I love these 1065 00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:52,920 Speaker 1: types of subjects. Uh. And I loved getting to talk 1066 00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:56,320 Speaker 1: about the INCA today. Yeah. This has been really cool. Yeah, 1067 00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:59,720 Speaker 1: I mean really hopefully, among other things, this will give 1068 00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:03,840 Speaker 1: you a little more respect for for the this fabulous 1069 01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:07,200 Speaker 1: culture and a sort of a a malcolm of cultures 1070 01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:09,280 Speaker 1: that came before. Yeah. Absolutely. And if you're one of 1071 01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:11,800 Speaker 1: the people out there who's working on this research to 1072 01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:15,040 Speaker 1: try to decode the key poos and find out if 1073 01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:18,479 Speaker 1: there's literary information in there and if so, what it is, Uh, 1074 01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:20,600 Speaker 1: we we wish you all the best and we can't 1075 01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:23,040 Speaker 1: wait to learn more. Yeah hey, And then in the 1076 01:00:23,120 --> 01:00:25,280 Speaker 1: time being, if you want to check out more content 1077 01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:26,960 Speaker 1: from Stuff to Blow your Mind, head on over to 1078 01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:29,680 Speaker 1: stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That is the mothership. 1079 01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:33,720 Speaker 1: That's where you'll find blog post, podcast videos, links out 1080 01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:36,200 Speaker 1: to our various social media accounts. We are Blow the 1081 01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:38,240 Speaker 1: Mind on Facebook and Twitter. We are Stuff to Blow 1082 01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:41,280 Speaker 1: your Mind on tumbler and uh hey, and if you 1083 01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:45,120 Speaker 1: want to physically send us uh some sort of keep 1084 01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:50,160 Speaker 1: who Inspired Creation to convey your appreciation for the podcast, 1085 01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:53,320 Speaker 1: you can find the physical address over at house stuff 1086 01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:55,880 Speaker 1: works dot com. And of course, as always, if you'd 1087 01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:58,360 Speaker 1: like to email us with your thoughts or feedback about 1088 01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:00,680 Speaker 1: this episode or any others, you can get in touch 1089 01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:03,080 Speaker 1: with us and blow the Mind at how stuff works 1090 01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:15,040 Speaker 1: dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics. 1091 01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:25,280 Speaker 1: Is it how stuff works dot com the same bl