WEBVTT - ‘Hardcore’ Ultimatum Spurs Exodus 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:04.440 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Karl Masser and I'm 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:07.280 Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stanovk. We're here every day bringing 0:00:07.280 --> 0:00:09.799 you the latest news from the world to business and finance, 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:13.640 plus technology, politics, economics, all harnessing the power of Business 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:17.119 Week reporters and editors, not to mention our journalists and 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:20.000 analyst in more than one twenty countries. You can download 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:23.200 Bloomberg Business Week on iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot com. 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:25.120 You can also listen to our radio show at two 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:27.840 pm Eastern Time on Bloomberg Radio or watch us on 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:31.520 YouTube and now also on Bloomberg Quick Take. We talked 0:00:31.520 --> 0:00:33.760 about volume being light in terms of the trade here, 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:36.360 and that makes maybe some sense as we get ready 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:39.199 for a holiday week next week and get into the weekend. 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:41.800 But I will say when it comes to news, I 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:44.320 can't almost every day. I think this week when I 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:45.959 would look at the most right on the Bloomberg where 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:47.800 it was in the past eight hours or past one hour, 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:51.240 it was all about f t X and Sam Bank 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:54.000 been freed. And I gotta say this includes this next 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:56.279 story which today which I it's a story I love 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:58.440 and it's a must read. It is a most read 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:00.960 on the Bloomberg. It is about what f t X is, 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:03.800 Sam Bankman, Freed said when we asked him, our Bloomberg 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:07.000 team asked him about some different things and the red 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:09.840 flags that were raised over the summer. So delighted to 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:12.319 have back with us, Bloomberg News investing reporter Annimal. So 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:14.480 she's been all over this story. She's back in our 0:01:14.480 --> 0:01:18.039 Bloomberg Interactive broker's studio. Love this story, feel like it's 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:20.080 so important right when we like kind of are now 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:22.760 looking back. So first of all, tell us about the 0:01:22.760 --> 0:01:25.560 story and how you guys laid it out. So um 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:28.759 back in August, um I was working with Hannah Miller 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:31.360 and Anna Arera here at Bloomberg and we were just 0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:35.720 kind of talking about how something was fishy with f 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:38.720 t X, and at the time, SPF was on this 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:41.760 mega buying spree. He was buying up all these bankrupt 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:46.080 companies and just throwing money left and right, and we 0:01:46.200 --> 0:01:48.760 just sort of started to like, the more we looked 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:50.640 into f t X, the more we we were like, 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:53.880 where is he getting all this money? What's going on here? 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:57.840 And what on earth is this company Alameda that's operating 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:00.400 on the side that he also owns, and none of 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:03.240 this was like, you know, it was known that Alameda 0:02:03.320 --> 0:02:06.120 existed and was out there, but like there seemed to 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:09.480 be some pretty glaring conflicts of interest. So we thought 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:13.839 that we could write a story about how in traditional finance, um, 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:16.880 that that's not that's not really kosher, it's not really 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:20.160 copacetic to have a market maker kind of operating under 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:23.000 the same umbrella as an exchange. Sure enough, here we 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:26.360 are after interviewing him about it in August, and uh, 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:28.480 it's all over the news. In the hindsight, I mean, 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:30.720 this was just the tip of the iceberg, this hunch, 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:35.519 this kind of fishiness, that's right. Um, so in hot yeah, hindsight, 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:38.440 it was it was really just the tip of the iceberg. 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:41.800 Um what was actually happening? So okay, So it raises 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:46.040 the question Annie about you know, if you're a company, 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:48.280 if you very better capital firm, and you go out 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:51.239 and you're looking for investments, you have certain types of 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:54.480 due diligence, and oftentimes what you do is you look 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:57.280 at the makeup of the board, for example, or you 0:02:57.440 --> 0:02:59.960 look at balance sheets and you'd get you know, you'd 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:02.760 dig under the hood. Journalists don't necessarily get to do 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:05.799 that when they're interviewing subjects unless they get access to 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:10.040 those things. Um, what adventure capitals miss? Why did venture 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:12.920 capitals miss this? I mean, one big thing venture capital 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:17.200 missed was that you know, the audit, the auditor that 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:19.760 first of all, not all pieces of this empire were audited, 0:03:19.800 --> 0:03:22.880 but a piece that was was audited by Like, this 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:25.400 was a thirty two billion dollar company and they had 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:28.720 an auditor that was like so far from anyone's radar, 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:32.119 that was like the first auditor in the metaverse. Like 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:34.840 you know, I mean, no matter what you think of 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:37.120 the metaverse, that should send up a red flag to you. 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:39.840 If you're a venture capital, Zuckerberg would come out and say, hey, 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:46.520 we're still working this exactly, like you're like, come out exactly. 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:49.640 So that's a red flag. But then, I mean, digging 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:53.120 a little bit deeper, the relationship between Alameda and f 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:56.560 t X should have been a red flag, and it 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:58.960 was out there. It was in the white paper that 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:01.360 f t X put out of it's exchange that it 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:04.320 has Alameda in the background. And by the way, Alameda 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:07.040 was founded before f t X, um there was a 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:10.280 clear linkage there. So I mean, these are all things 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:12.440 like you'd at least at a minimum want to know, 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:15.080 like what kind of access does Alameda have to your 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:19.160 exchange data, like information on your customers and what they're doing. 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:21.960 I mean to say, nothing of like sending money from 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:25.120 f t X to Alameda, UM, which is outlandish. Well, 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:27.240 it's kind of amazing. I do love this story. Everybody 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:29.120 should read it just got to Bler dot com. But 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:31.880 it's interesting, Like you say on ft X is relationship 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:34.360 with Alameda Bank, Ben Freed said over the summer, as 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:36.760 of today, there wasn't that much of one there, so 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:39.480 maybe who knows, maybe at that point it wasn't I 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:42.159 don't know. No, I think basically at this point we 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:44.640 like cannot believe anything he ever said on the record 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:49.200 or ever um. But looking back on his comments, it 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:52.920 was kind of like it was astonishing because we asked 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:56.960 him very specific questions about the relationship between these two 0:04:57.000 --> 0:04:59.560 firms and where he lived for example, and like he 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:02.039 wasn't a to answer anything. Will help me out with 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:04.000 her because going back to what Tim says, and we've 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:06.119 been talking about this all week, that you know, venture 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:09.280 capitalists tend to love these crazy people. You know that 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:11.120 often look a little bit offbeat and are seen as 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:14.200 geniuses and brilliant, right and and are okay with it 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:17.600 and the quirkiness. And yet as you guys lay out 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:20.800 the living arrangements for f t X and Alamedia employees 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:23.960 like that, he couldn't really answer where he lived or 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:28.200 slept like you looking back, is it just like, wait 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:30.040 a minute, this is a simple question. Yeah, there are 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:33.880 pretty simple questions that I don't think people were really 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:37.240 like asking him um or they didn't care. And to 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:40.120 your point about how he looked and acted, I think 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:43.159 sometimes there's a group think that goes on with vcs 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:45.560 or anyone. But like you think, like, oh, well, I've 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:48.200 seen genius look like this before, in for example, like 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:51.760 a Mark Zuckerberg, like someone who's like not like flashy, 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:56.400 like handsome, dashing, like you know, good like media gets 0:05:56.400 --> 0:05:59.479 into it too. Yeah, yeah, of course we love a 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:02.400 story correct. But but I will say any to your point, 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:04.800 I think you're spot on someone like Mark Zuckerberg. Think 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:07.800 about Facebook's origin story. Right, A bunch of folks drop 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:10.760 out of Harvard, they moved to California. They all lived 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:16.200 together like there, you know, college roommates of some sort Apple, right, 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:18.840 and a garage and Cooper Tino, those sorts of things. 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:23.760 So it's it makes sense in hindsight, but at the 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:28.839 time it's not necessarily glaring. That's true. I mean, yeah, 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:34.320 A more charitable interpretation is like any startup begins from 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:39.080 you know, humble origins by definition, and I think what 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:43.200 maybe broke down along the way is how fast, how 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:45.480 rapidly this thing was growing? Right, So it took many 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:48.520 years for Apple to become Apple, it took many years 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:52.200 for Amazon to become Amazon, and this crypto thing, and 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:54.520 maybe there was no frame of reference on how fast 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:58.680 something could grow, but um, but things were moving, progressing 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:01.840 really fast. F t X started in right, and now 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:04.400 now it's as of this year, it was a thirty 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:07.559 two billion dollar company, you know, just throwing out cash 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:10.320 on all these um, all these various types of investments. 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:14.000 So I mean that rapid growth maybe they thought was 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:16.560 the new normal for crypto or something that they couldn't miss. 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:21.360 But um, it does kind of give you pause looking back, Ednie, 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:25.960 looking back, and of course, you know Monday morning quarterbacking, 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:30.120 what would you have maybe pushed him further on or 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:32.200 our team should have pushed him further on, or just 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:35.040 media in general, an investors should have pushed him further on, 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:37.520 or what would you have asked differently. That's a really 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:40.720 good question. I mean, I think that all journalists are thinking. 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:43.840 So many journalists had exposure to him or gave him 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:48.040 exposure to the world, and it's a bit of a 0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:52.480 soul searching moment for the industry about the exposure that 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:56.480 he got. Um, I'm proud of the questions we asked him. 0:07:56.520 --> 0:07:59.320 I never interviewed SPF other than this interview to ask 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:03.120 about alany. But of course I wish I hadn't figured 0:08:03.120 --> 0:08:07.880 out that he was siphoning funds perhaps like or or 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:10.360 you know, even some of the even some of the 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:14.280 like dicier stuff under the hood. Um. Of course, you know, 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:18.200 even looking back at what we printed, like we took 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:20.240 certain things to be true that he said about like 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:22.760 how the business was doing right. We you know, we 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:25.000 said that he said that it earned a certain amount 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:28.520 of money. And now in the bankruptcy filings, even even 0:08:28.680 --> 0:08:31.200 John Ray says, I don't know if any of the 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:37.080 financials I have in charge formerly oversaw the liquidation of 0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:40.040 Enron and is now overseeing the same like liquidation of 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:43.559 f t X said, I've never seen like a situation 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:45.000 like this. I'm not sure if I can trust the 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:48.600 financials that I have in front of me, so knowing 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:51.280 knowing what we know now, and and all the reporting 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:53.199 that you've done and that others have done, what you've 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:55.880 read about what what Sam Bateman Freed has said? What 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:58.160 are some I don't want to use the term lie, 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:01.800 because you know they're there are different there are different 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:03.920 things associated with lying. But I mean, what are some 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:05.800 things that you saw that he said that We're definitely 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:10.160 not true? I mean, definitely not true. He told us 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:13.120 on the record that there wasn't there wasn't really a 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:17.240 relationship between FTX and Alameda. We know that that's absolutely 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:23.160 unequivocally false. No way was that true? Um he talked 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:27.680 about his living arrangements. He couldn't really answer, um, so 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:30.719 it's hard to know. I mean, I don't think at 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:33.960 all anymore that he like quickly had changed his living 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:36.520 arrangements like no way, he said, I mean, this is 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:39.560 one of the funny ones. He said that by some measures, 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:43.240 like they are the most regulated exchange in the world, 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:46.600 which is hilarious. I mean, it was even hilarious. Then 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:51.960 like to suggest that this this offshore exchange crypto exchange 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:56.000 in the Bahamas, like has any level of Like I've 0:09:56.000 --> 0:09:58.520 covered exchanges, they have a lot of roles. And that's 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:00.839 a feature, not a bug of putting in a certain place. 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:04.400 I mean, if you wanted to be regulated. He moved 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:08.679 the whole operationally, moved Alameda from California to Hong Kong 0:10:08.840 --> 0:10:11.400 and then to the Bahamas. All right, Annie, thank you 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:14.840 so much. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:20.040 Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. Well, 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:22.959 nothing like a hardcore ultimatum to get people to get 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:24.559 off the fence. In this case, we're talking about the 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:27.720 Twitter fence, and we're talking about Elon Muskin what he 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:30.599 gave Twitter employees and ultimatum to either commit to the 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:33.760 company's new hardcore work environment or get it out. And 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:37.360 also most recently, he's saying that all of the social 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:40.520 media platform software engineers must come to its headquarters for 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:44.200 a meeting this afternoon, even urging employees to fly to 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:47.040 San Francisco to be there in person. Does everyone have 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:49.960 a private jet? I don't think the question. Kurt Wagner 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:53.680 wrote that piece along with Maxwell Adler, and Kurt Wagner 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:56.719 joins us now Viasm from San Francisco's technology reporter for 0:10:56.720 --> 0:10:59.680 Bloomberg News. He has been all over this story, Kurt. 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:01.800 Good to have you back with us. I want to 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:03.920 start with the fact that I can still use Twitter 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:06.440 right now. And last night before I went to bed, 0:11:06.920 --> 0:11:10.120 it was like Twitter was on death row awaiting to 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:13.280 be executed. And I wake up this morning and there 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:16.720 it is. It still works. What's going on? Yeah, I 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:20.000 mean last night Twitter was like a very sad place 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:22.920 if you if you like the product and use it, 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:25.840 because you're right, it felt like everyone was just you know, 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:28.640 the night before the world ending or something like that. Um, 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:33.920 but Twitter is working. You know. Everything we are hearing 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:37.600 in in in uh you know reporting is that there 0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:39.920 was a lot of concern that because there's been so 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:43.440 many people who have left, that eventually there's going to 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:47.240 be this you know, um technical kind of cascade, right 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:49.240 that maybe one part of the service is going to 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:51.719 have a bug and you know it's going to lead 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:55.040 to other features not working, and that eventually we're going 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:58.480 to start to see like long outages or it's certainly 0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:00.360 gonna be hard for them to ship any new teachers 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:02.200 because they're going to be just in maintenance mode this 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:05.400 whole time. But for today, of course, it seems to 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:07.440 still be working, and I certainly hope that's the case 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:10.040 going forward. It does feel though, like this is going 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:12.240 to be something that that slowly starts to happen over 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:13.840 the next couple of weeks. I mean, how do we 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:16.200 mean not a publicly held company, so it's kind of 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:19.840 weird now we don't have perhaps the transparency, visibility and 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:21.840 right ealing can kind of say whatever he wants, it 0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:24.400 feels like about this company. But what are you hearing 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:27.040 from folks who are inside the company and for those 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:29.040 of us who use Twitter, you know about kind of 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:33.440 the reliability of this platform. Yeah, I mean, these these concerns, 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:35.120 the ones that I just shared with you, are are 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:38.200 coming from those people, right, Like these are people who 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:41.120 are much smarter about the engineering and about the tech 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:44.400 than I am. Right, and they're leaving the company, and 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:48.000 they're saying we're not sure who's left, right, Like, Hey, 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:50.200 I'm I was on a team that helped, you know, 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:53.760 keep the timeline running, and everyone on my team is gone. Right, Like, 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:56.000 that's the kind those are the kinds of stories that 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:58.760 we're starting to hear from people, right. And I think 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:01.839 the argument from you know, supporters of Evan has been well, 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:04.680 Twitter used to be much smaller than it is now 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:06.800 and it was still abled to operate, And that's of 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:10.000 course very true. I think it's very different to you know, 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:14.200 build up to let's say two thousand employees versus start 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:17.160 at seven thousand and then ripped five thousand of those 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:19.280 people out within a two week stretch, right. It just 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:22.600 creates a lot of chaos and uncertainty and so um, 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:24.800 you know, this is where the concern lies that maybe 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:26.600 the product isn't going to be as stable as it 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:28.240 should be. And there's a really kind of an a 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:31.439 side story was that Jaguar land rover to recruit fire, 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:33.880 Twitter and Facebook workers. I mean there's companies out there saying, 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:36.120 you know, on a city of San Francisco's coming out 0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:39.440 and saying, hey, we've got positions. I would imagine, though, Kurt, 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:42.319 that those positions don't pay what you know Twitter would 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:44.880 pay for engineers. Uh, Kurt, I don't know how everyone's 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:46.480 supposed to go to the office today. If the office 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:49.760 is closed. Yeah, you you and me both right. So 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:53.160 last night there was a company wide email that said, uh, 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:56.840 we're closing the offices, were restricting badge access. And the 0:13:56.880 --> 0:13:59.880 explanation I got from some folks who received that em 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:02.760 know was the feeling was that they don't exactly know 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:06.240 who still works at Twitter right now because so many people, um, 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:11.840 you know it didn't accept the muskus asked to be hardcore, 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:14.679 and so they're sort of sifting through, like, Okay, who 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:17.480 actually still works here? So, for example, folks who are 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:20.160 not planning to work at Twitter any longer still have 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:22.480 access to their email. It's still have access to Slack 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:25.000 things like that, and so thinking once they closed the 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:27.600 office in order to sort of figure out, okay, you know, 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:29.600 who should still have access to this so we don't 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:32.200 have rogue employees kind of coming in. But you know, 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:34.280 then he says, today, hey, everyone needs to show up 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:37.200 on the tenth floor to uh have an in person meeting. 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:39.680 And it's like, well, which one is it is the 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:43.280 office closing, badge access is revoked or is everyone's supposed 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:46.080 to be there in person today. It's just it's so 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:49.560 confusing and chaotic right now, guys and it's people who 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:53.360 work at Twitter are really frustrated, as you can imagine 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:55.200 with everything that's been going on. Well, and you have 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:58.320 to wonder what listen. I know Ellen is a smart dude, 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:00.360 but you have to wonder he paid forty a billion 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:02.560 dollars with this company, right, and it feels like the 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:05.320 value potentially it was a publicly held company would be, 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:09.240 you know, continuing to go to the downside. Just twenty seconds. 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:10.960 I mean, do we have any idea of what his 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:16.000 longer term thinking is here? Just quickly, no quick cancers, Now, 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:17.640 I don't I really don't. I mean you to talk 0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:20.600 a lot about maybe building payments into Twitter. That's about 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:24.640 as as detailed as I could Right now. I'm just chuckling, Kirk, 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:26.560 because I'm thinking about your weekend that's going to be 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:29.440 doing a lot of work. What weekend, weekend or their 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:33.000 weekends or holidays anymore. I don't think not for your 0:15:33.000 --> 0:15:38.440 Twitter employees or Elon Musk, Kurt. This is Bloomberg Business 0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:42.320 Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes. Tim Stinovic 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:47.800 on Bloomberg Radio. We know wrapping up in Egypt, A 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:50.720 lot of headlines came out of that and with that 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:53.760 as a backdrop, Um, there's a story you'll find in 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:56.160 the new issue Bloomberg business Week magazine that's now out 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:58.640 on news stands, online, and on the Bloomberg. It is 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:02.600 about the nation caught in the cross hairs of climate change. 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:06.320 It's getting rich and here's the kick on oil, It's 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:08.480 getting rich on coil. This story happens to also be 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:11.720 the Bloomberg Big Take today. The story written by Monte Real, 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:15.120 senior investigations reporter at Bloomberg News. He joins us via 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:17.960 zoom from Chicago. Also with us this afternoon is Joel Webber. 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:21.200 He's the editor of Bloomberg business Week. He's with us 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:24.800 in the Bloomberg Interactive Broker's studio. Joel, I want to 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:27.680 start off with you, um, because it is today's Big Take. 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:29.880 It's in the upcoming issue or the current issue of 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:35.480 Bloomberg Business Week magazine. Um, it's the nation is between 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:38.200 a rock and a hard place right now, because so 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:40.920 drill for oil and hope for the best. And that's 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:44.400 basically what the I think the story really boils under. 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:48.280 And that is an incredible paradox. And as Monty writes, 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.440 the coastline of the city of this country is is 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:56.400 actually below sea level, so rising sees present obviously a 0:16:56.480 --> 0:16:59.840 huge challenge. It is historically one of the poorest countries 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:03.160 the world. Um. And yet with this deal with x On, 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:08.600 they find themselves like potentially uh you know, with uh 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:11.679 kind of a one shot at at an anormous amount 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:15.640 of wealth and could pull themselves out of that, um poverty. 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:18.840 But to do so also means that here we are 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:22.080 in the world of climate change, and it puts the 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:25.280 whole country at jeopardy to to walk this path. So, 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:32.880 so Monty incredible story. Uh. How is this country, uh, 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:36.120 which we call the last petro state, how is how 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:40.320 is it uh navigating this challenge because this has been 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:42.720 a long time in the making and only now have 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:46.720 they really started to accelerate how much oil they're extracting 0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:52.320 from the country. Yeah. Um, so this discovery of all 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:56.600 this oils came in so it's been about seven years now, um. 0:17:57.040 --> 0:17:59.240 And I think just to put this in a little 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.680 bit of contact, Guyana is really really small. There's only 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:06.800 about eight hundred thousand people in the whole country. And 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:10.760 to put its economy in perspective, the size of its 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:14.719 economy and the economic output traditionally has been about you know, 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:18.399 one tenth of an average American mid size city. So 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:20.879 it's a very very small economy we're talking about. And 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:24.800 this is a huge, you know windfall of oil. It's 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:29.600 billions of barrels of it. And so the leaders of Guyana, 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:33.560 you know, looked at this potential windfall, which is you know, 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:38.280 potentially worth hundreds of billions of dollars, and politically they 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:41.879 could not pass up the chance to drill this, and 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:47.920 so they began drilling about three years ago. And since then, 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:52.600 Guyana has become the fastest growing economy in the world. Um. 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:55.560 It's capital budget just in the last year, I think 0:18:55.560 --> 0:19:00.280 grew more than and um. So with all of this 0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:04.200 road of though, there are critics who are saying that 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:08.160 the oil drilling has kind of spun out of control already. 0:19:08.240 --> 0:19:12.280 There's a lot of complaints that environmental regulations have kind 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:15.399 of been tossed to the wayside um, and there's a 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:18.760 lot of criticism of the contract itself with Excellent Mobil, 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:21.720 which is drilling new at all um. A lot of 0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:25.399 people say that in terms of that contract were lopsided 0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:29.280 in favor of the of the company at the expense 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:33.440 of the residents of the country. Hey, Monty, I was 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:35.919 pretty struck when you wrote about the ecology of the 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:39.880 island and what what there is in the rainforest where 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:42.679 people don't live. Talk a little bit about what you 0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:45.720 see there and and and really this area of the 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:49.120 world and what it has to offer. Yeah, So Guyana 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:52.720 is you know, it is one of the most sparsely 0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:56.880 populated countries in the Western Hemisphere. And you know, part 0:19:56.920 --> 0:19:58.919 of the reason for that is of those eight hundred 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:03.280 thousand people, not them live right along the coast in 0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:06.280 a narrow strip, and so a lot of the interior 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:12.160 of the country is forested. It's about eight covered in forest. 0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:15.960 And so there are just the unbelievably beautiful parts of 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:21.280 Guyana and there are these you know, big plateaus with waterfalls. Um, 0:20:21.400 --> 0:20:24.199 you know, there's all sorts of endangered species there. So 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:28.199 it's really this kind of ecological treasure. And one of 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:31.720 the ironies of the story is that Guyana, before they 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:36.320 embraced drilling oil, they were seen as a country that 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:43.760 was really leading UM efforts at conservation and ecological confservation particularly. 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:46.080 So want to help me out here, because in your 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:49.760 report you say that Guyana's leaders have promised to create 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:53.640 a different kind of petro state, an environmentally sustainable one 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:56.360 that uses oil revenue to build a more adorable infrastructure 0:20:56.359 --> 0:20:59.639 powered by renewable energy. Are they not doing that or 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:04.000 is that ultimately where they're going? Well, that's where they 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:08.639 say they're going. They've they've how do they plan? What's that? 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:12.520 How do they do that? Well, so they have a 0:21:12.560 --> 0:21:17.520 plan that's um called the Low Carbon Development Strategy, and 0:21:17.600 --> 0:21:21.840 so what they want to do is use much of 0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:26.360 the oil revenue to build one infrastructure to kind of 0:21:26.440 --> 0:21:30.120 protect against climate change. And that would include things like 0:21:30.600 --> 0:21:34.280 reinforcing the sea wall. There's a sea wall right now 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:38.520