WEBVTT - The Science of Grit 0:00:14.916 --> 0:00:33.476 Pushkin. What makes a great graphic designer? You know, same 0:00:33.676 --> 0:00:36.876 as like a great ballerina, but also the same as 0:00:36.916 --> 0:00:39.716 like a world class mathematician, but also the same as 0:00:39.716 --> 0:00:42.316 a civic activists, Like, what do they have in common? 0:00:43.236 --> 0:00:47.916 According to psychologist Angela Duckworth, the answer is grit, a 0:00:48.076 --> 0:00:53.316 power combo of passion and perseverance. Angela says natural ability 0:00:53.356 --> 0:00:56.396 and access to opportunity will of course give you a 0:00:56.436 --> 0:00:59.076 head start, but they alone won't get you to the 0:00:59.116 --> 0:01:02.636 finish line, and focusing too much on natural ability can 0:01:02.676 --> 0:01:06.436 be counterproductive because it's something we can't change about ourselves. 0:01:07.036 --> 0:01:10.156 So when it comes to reaching our big goals, Angela 0:01:10.236 --> 0:01:12.676 wants us to reorient our focus to the thing we 0:01:12.836 --> 0:01:16.436 can change, which is the sustained effort we pour into 0:01:16.436 --> 0:01:19.516 the things we care about. When we say like, oh, well, 0:01:19.556 --> 0:01:21.836 you know she or he's a genius and I'm not. 0:01:22.116 --> 0:01:25.116 I mean, it really does let you off the hook, right, 0:01:25.236 --> 0:01:27.916 Like if they have something you don't have some magical 0:01:28.556 --> 0:01:32.036 X factor, right then you don't have any obligation to 0:01:32.076 --> 0:01:34.636 wake up at five in the morning and train and 0:01:34.716 --> 0:01:38.396 to like, you know, do all the hard things. On 0:01:38.436 --> 0:01:42.156 today's episode, Angela Duckworth teaches us how to cultivate grit, 0:01:42.396 --> 0:01:45.396 channel that grit, and resist some of the temptations that 0:01:45.516 --> 0:01:49.956 often get in the way of achieving success. I'm Maya Shunker, 0:01:50.156 --> 0:01:52.836 and this is a slight change of plans, a show 0:01:52.876 --> 0:01:55.596 about who we are and who we become in the 0:01:55.636 --> 0:02:11.116 face of a big change. Angela is a true expert 0:02:11.156 --> 0:02:13.956 on grit. She's been studying the topic for over a 0:02:13.996 --> 0:02:17.316 decade now as a professor at the University of Pennsylvania. 0:02:17.756 --> 0:02:21.356 She's also the recipient of a MacArthur Genius Grant, and 0:02:21.476 --> 0:02:24.596 her TED talk on Passion and Perseverance has garnered over 0:02:24.676 --> 0:02:28.756 twenty five million views. I started at our conversation by 0:02:28.836 --> 0:02:31.916 diving into the basics, starting with the definition of grit. 0:02:32.756 --> 0:02:38.236 I define grit as the combination of passion and perseverance 0:02:38.396 --> 0:02:41.836 over the very long term. So that doesn't mean that 0:02:41.876 --> 0:02:43.996 like every day you're doing the exact same thing, but 0:02:44.156 --> 0:02:47.596 you have a kind of overall ambition or goal, you know, 0:02:47.676 --> 0:02:50.396 like I want to help people live better lives through 0:02:50.436 --> 0:02:52.516 behavioral science. You know, I want to be the best 0:02:52.796 --> 0:02:54.916 pediatrician that I can be. You know, I want to 0:02:54.956 --> 0:02:58.036 be a great musician, whatever it is. And there's also 0:02:58.476 --> 0:03:02.596 a perseverance like working really hard, taking feedback and learning, 0:03:02.676 --> 0:03:06.316 I mean really trying to stay in a game and 0:03:06.516 --> 0:03:10.076 work hard at that game in a resultant way over time. 0:03:10.076 --> 0:03:14.276 So passion and perseverance for long term goals. When I 0:03:14.316 --> 0:03:17.756 was a kid, I remember feeling like it was all 0:03:17.796 --> 0:03:22.036 about natural talent. Like in music school, everyone was so 0:03:22.156 --> 0:03:26.996 quick to try to identify the latest prodigy. Absolutely. I 0:03:27.036 --> 0:03:30.116 remember there was this violinist Rachel. Not that I still 0:03:30.156 --> 0:03:33.276 remember you, Rachel, but you were amazing, hiel hi Rachel. 0:03:33.316 --> 0:03:35.076 I won't say your last name because I don't embarrass you, 0:03:35.156 --> 0:03:37.676 but she was a few years younger than me, and 0:03:37.796 --> 0:03:41.636 she was such a gifted violinist. I mean, I felt 0:03:41.636 --> 0:03:44.916 like everything that was hard for me seemed to come 0:03:44.956 --> 0:03:49.996 easily to her. And rather than internalizing, oh, I guess 0:03:50.076 --> 0:03:51.556 this is a lesson to me that I need to 0:03:51.556 --> 0:03:56.636 work harder, I actually just felt despondent, right. I felt like, Okay, 0:03:56.676 --> 0:03:58.796 well should I just give up? Because I don't have it. 0:03:58.876 --> 0:04:01.396 I don't have what it takes, and so the only 0:04:01.396 --> 0:04:04.236 way forward was for me to just keep practicing. But 0:04:04.316 --> 0:04:07.476 I can't say that wasn't without some suffering and mental 0:04:07.596 --> 0:04:10.116 anguish about the fact that I I always felt like 0:04:10.156 --> 0:04:12.836 I was a little behind, and so I feel so 0:04:12.956 --> 0:04:17.396 passionately about evangelizing your research in this space because I 0:04:17.396 --> 0:04:19.876 feel like I fell victim to aspects of it as 0:04:19.876 --> 0:04:22.716 a child. Right, it actually hurt my psychology. Do you 0:04:23.076 --> 0:04:26.156 do you know the research of Chia Jung. Say you've 0:04:26.196 --> 0:04:28.636 wrote about her in your book, right, yeah, okay, right, 0:04:28.676 --> 0:04:32.196 so exactly, and I wrote about how Chio was a 0:04:32.276 --> 0:04:36.596 musician like you, right, and how she I think, you know, 0:04:36.676 --> 0:04:40.316 given her personal experience with music. I mean I think 0:04:40.316 --> 0:04:43.116 that music in particular, Right, there are certain domains where, 0:04:43.316 --> 0:04:46.396 you know, people talk about prodigies, and you know, there 0:04:46.436 --> 0:04:49.276 are YouTube videos of prodigies and really is amazing. And 0:04:49.276 --> 0:04:51.676 you see a kid who's five, you know, do something 0:04:51.756 --> 0:04:54.236 that it just makes you think, like that must be 0:04:54.276 --> 0:04:58.036 something that's born, not made, and those people are special, 0:04:58.756 --> 0:05:03.076 and like you, she really felt, I mean so impassionate 0:05:03.116 --> 0:05:05.876 about like, hey, you know, come see the thousands of 0:05:05.916 --> 0:05:09.436 hours of practice. And you won't use the word now natural, 0:05:09.676 --> 0:05:12.556 you know, so flippantly, And I'll just say that, you know, 0:05:12.596 --> 0:05:15.596 it's not that anybody, or at least that I would 0:05:15.596 --> 0:05:17.876 say that we're all equally talented I mean I think 0:05:17.916 --> 0:05:20.836 that would be right, like ridiculous. And I think the 0:05:21.356 --> 0:05:24.316 key is is that you know, when you're young and 0:05:24.356 --> 0:05:26.196 you're trying to figure out like should I keep going 0:05:26.276 --> 0:05:28.196 or should I not keep going? Or Frankly, I guess 0:05:28.236 --> 0:05:32.076 at any age, if you just obsess about these differences 0:05:32.476 --> 0:05:34.676 in things that you can't change, I do think it 0:05:34.756 --> 0:05:38.596 can overshadow you know, the things that you can change, 0:05:38.756 --> 0:05:40.876 right and um, and all those thousands of hours of 0:05:40.916 --> 0:05:43.916 practice that that you put in, that you have put in, 0:05:44.236 --> 0:05:46.676 you know, those are like not very fun to watch 0:05:46.716 --> 0:05:49.556 on YouTube. Frankly, yeah, um, you know I want to 0:05:49.596 --> 0:05:53.516 hear Maria Angela? Why why are we such suckers for 0:05:53.676 --> 0:05:55.956 natural ability? Like I was talking with my husband the 0:05:55.956 --> 0:05:59.596 other night and he was saying, in high school, you're 0:05:59.676 --> 0:06:03.036 really cool if you got good grades without trying at all. 0:06:03.156 --> 0:06:05.236 And by the way, I mean really cool in very 0:06:05.276 --> 0:06:07.956 nerdy circles. I say, just to clarify, I go to 0:06:08.476 --> 0:06:11.276 just to clarify, I just to clarify. But it's like, oh, 0:06:11.356 --> 0:06:13.916 he got to be plus without studying, Like imagine if 0:06:13.956 --> 0:06:15.956 he had study, you know, And there's this this is 0:06:16.036 --> 0:06:20.116 aura around people who don't try hard. What in our 0:06:20.196 --> 0:06:25.036 human behavior gives rise to this fascination with natural ability. Well, 0:06:25.036 --> 0:06:28.036 I can only speculate, but people do have a preference 0:06:28.156 --> 0:06:31.396 for people that we consider it to be naturals, and 0:06:31.836 --> 0:06:34.956 we prefer them over strivers, even when we know that 0:06:34.996 --> 0:06:37.436 they have accomplished the same thing. And you know, I 0:06:37.476 --> 0:06:40.476 remember reading what Nietzsche wrote about this, and he said, 0:06:40.516 --> 0:06:42.876 you know, when we consider that other people are naturals, 0:06:42.876 --> 0:06:45.636 but we aren't, right when we say, like, oh, well, 0:06:45.676 --> 0:06:47.996 you know she or he's a genius and I'm not. 0:06:48.236 --> 0:06:51.796 I mean, it really does like let you off the hook, right, 0:06:51.916 --> 0:06:54.556 Like if they have something, you don't have some magical 0:06:55.556 --> 0:06:59.036 X factor, right, then you don't have any obligation to 0:06:59.036 --> 0:07:01.356 wake up at five in the morning and and train 0:07:01.556 --> 0:07:03.716 and to like, you know, do all the hard things. 0:07:03.796 --> 0:07:06.516 I think there's at least a part of it that's 0:07:06.556 --> 0:07:09.036 like that. And you know, there's something kind of fun 0:07:09.236 --> 0:07:11.996 about thinking that people are like demigods or like we 0:07:12.036 --> 0:07:14.596 tell little kids like, oh, you're a child prodigy in 0:07:15.116 --> 0:07:18.116 piano or painting. I think there's just something fun and 0:07:18.276 --> 0:07:20.756 mystical about it too, right, Like we like to think 0:07:20.756 --> 0:07:24.596 they're they're just qualitatively different. I do think though, that 0:07:24.716 --> 0:07:27.636 if we can, you know, till things such that the 0:07:27.796 --> 0:07:31.436 honor and the glory goes to people who have earned 0:07:31.956 --> 0:07:35.436 what they do in a very transparent way that's maybe 0:07:35.476 --> 0:07:39.156 not as romantic, then we will be doing a great 0:07:39.156 --> 0:07:42.356 service to our kids, because I mean, I really don't 0:07:42.436 --> 0:07:46.476 know anybody who has become world class and economics or 0:07:46.516 --> 0:07:50.596 at being a political leader or anything else. You know, 0:07:50.716 --> 0:07:53.756 a classroom teacher, a nurse like without you know, just 0:07:54.076 --> 0:07:56.756 years and years of effort. So at this point in 0:07:56.756 --> 0:07:59.876 our conversation, Angela has made a strong argument for the 0:07:59.916 --> 0:08:03.596 importance of grit. But it's grit like talent, one of 0:08:03.636 --> 0:08:06.476 those things you've either got or you don't like. In 0:08:06.556 --> 0:08:10.076 addition to raw talent, did Rachel the Violent also have 0:08:10.236 --> 0:08:13.916 more grit than me? Okay, she probably did that. That's 0:08:13.956 --> 0:08:16.916 because she's Rachel and so of course she did. But 0:08:17.076 --> 0:08:21.556 here's the good news. We can cultivate grit. Angela says 0:08:21.596 --> 0:08:23.996 there are four key things we can all do in 0:08:24.036 --> 0:08:27.756 our lives to build some grit. Number one, find out 0:08:27.756 --> 0:08:31.436 what interests you. People who are really gritty have this 0:08:31.516 --> 0:08:34.916 intrinsic interest and curiosity about what they're doing, so you can, 0:08:35.396 --> 0:08:37.716 you know, start a book club. If you're at work 0:08:37.756 --> 0:08:39.396 in a job and you're like, hey, I don't learn 0:08:39.396 --> 0:08:41.636 a lot, you can, you know, start listening to a 0:08:41.676 --> 0:08:44.716 podcast like this one that you know really engages your mind, etc. 0:08:45.036 --> 0:08:48.556 But interest, I think is the first seed of passion. 0:08:48.996 --> 0:08:52.356 You know, interests are you know, what naturally grabs our attention. 0:08:52.396 --> 0:08:54.476 I think that's the best definition of what an interest is. 0:08:54.476 --> 0:08:57.756 It's like, you know, without effort or without will, you 0:08:57.836 --> 0:09:00.196 just want to think about it. Yeah, And one thing 0:09:00.196 --> 0:09:04.196 you've said is that our interests actually remain relatively stable 0:09:04.316 --> 0:09:06.836 over the course of our lives and even our personalities. 0:09:07.116 --> 0:09:09.556 And so one way we can identify what we're naturally 0:09:09.596 --> 0:09:12.476 interested in is to look back at our childhood and 0:09:12.756 --> 0:09:14.916 try and remember what it is that lit us up 0:09:14.996 --> 0:09:17.196 or made us tick. I do want to say, man, 0:09:17.316 --> 0:09:19.596 it's important to know that, you know, interests evolved, so 0:09:19.636 --> 0:09:21.956 they're not static. So it's not like, you know, if 0:09:21.956 --> 0:09:24.836 you're interested in something when you're fourteen, that's exactly what 0:09:24.916 --> 0:09:27.636 you'll be interested in when you're fifty four. But I 0:09:27.676 --> 0:09:30.076 do think actually, if you introspect a little bit and 0:09:30.116 --> 0:09:33.476 you remember what you were like in high school, right, 0:09:33.556 --> 0:09:37.316 this is during the period of adolescence when interests tend 0:09:37.436 --> 0:09:41.116 to get more specific and differentiated. And if you think 0:09:41.116 --> 0:09:43.356 back enough, I think back, you know, to my own 0:09:43.716 --> 0:09:46.756 sixteen and seventeen year old self, what was I interested in? Well? 0:09:46.796 --> 0:09:49.956 I signed up for a summer school class in psychology, 0:09:50.516 --> 0:09:52.956 and I signed up for a summer school class in 0:09:53.036 --> 0:09:57.756 nonfiction writing. Right, I didn't pick chemistry, I didn't pick philosophy. 0:09:57.796 --> 0:10:00.196 I didn't pick up So I think in some ways, 0:10:00.236 --> 0:10:02.316 you know, what do I do now? Well, I do 0:10:02.356 --> 0:10:04.636 a lot of psychology and I do a lot of 0:10:04.676 --> 0:10:07.996 nonfiction writing. So I do think that trip down memory 0:10:08.076 --> 0:10:11.956 lane can sometimes just you know, remind us in a 0:10:11.996 --> 0:10:15.796 way of the things. But another tip for you if 0:10:15.836 --> 0:10:18.716 you don't want to just introspect, is like literally ask 0:10:18.796 --> 0:10:22.116 the people that you that you love most. You know, 0:10:22.196 --> 0:10:24.796 if I asked my husband, like Jason, what am I 0:10:24.836 --> 0:10:26.756 interested in? I mean, it sounds like a crazy thing 0:10:26.796 --> 0:10:28.996 to ask, like shouldn't I know? But he will tell 0:10:29.036 --> 0:10:30.756 me what he observes. He's like, well, when I see 0:10:30.756 --> 0:10:32.996 you read the newspaper, you're always reading the food section, 0:10:33.596 --> 0:10:36.076 vows you know, Like He's like, you just when we 0:10:36.116 --> 0:10:38.196 went to visit houses, when we were shopping for houses 0:10:38.916 --> 0:10:42.236 instead of asking about the plumbing and the mortgage and 0:10:42.276 --> 0:10:46.116 the abatement. I was like, so then they got divorced, 0:10:46.196 --> 0:10:48.236 and then what happened the routes are was like, well, 0:10:48.236 --> 0:10:50.836 and then and my husband was like and this has 0:10:50.876 --> 0:10:52.836 nothing to do with this house, And I'm like, I know, 0:10:52.916 --> 0:10:55.236 but it's so interesting. I just want to know. So 0:10:55.516 --> 0:10:58.396 that's me and human nature. So take a trip down 0:10:58.396 --> 0:11:01.076 memory lane. But also ask some people who know you 0:11:01.156 --> 0:11:02.476 and love you, you know, what do you think I'm 0:11:02.516 --> 0:11:04.956 interested in? And I think you might learn something. Yeah, 0:11:04.996 --> 0:11:06.676 oh my gosh, you and I are totally the same. 0:11:06.716 --> 0:11:08.996 That's always my interest too. I must not buy a 0:11:10.396 --> 0:11:14.756 terrible fathay. Angela's second tip for building grit. Once you 0:11:14.836 --> 0:11:18.996 found an interest, go all in, engage in focus, practice, 0:11:19.076 --> 0:11:22.756 and set clear goals. Step three is all about thinking 0:11:22.756 --> 0:11:26.516 about the big picture. Angela says to ask yourself, why 0:11:26.556 --> 0:11:28.996 are you doing the thing you're doing, what's your sense 0:11:28.996 --> 0:11:34.196 of purpose? And then, finally step four, cultivate a growth mindset, 0:11:34.756 --> 0:11:36.636 which is the idea that we should think about our 0:11:36.676 --> 0:11:39.276 mind as a muscle that can grow with hard work 0:11:39.276 --> 0:11:45.876 and perseverance. Basically, being optimistic about how people's abilities can change, 0:11:46.356 --> 0:11:49.636 and how we're not necessarily as fixed as sometimes we're 0:11:49.636 --> 0:11:53.436 tempted to think we are. And it's something that you know, 0:11:53.516 --> 0:11:56.596 I'm still working on. I saw him slip into a 0:11:56.636 --> 0:11:59.636 fixed mindset sometimes, and I try to let my growth 0:11:59.716 --> 0:12:04.356 mindset voice have it say. One person who inspires Angela 0:12:04.396 --> 0:12:07.196 to keep her growth mindset front and center is a 0:12:07.196 --> 0:12:10.836 former student of hers, David law. So David Long I 0:12:10.916 --> 0:12:15.356 met years ago when METSI more than twenty maybe now. 0:12:15.676 --> 0:12:18.116 I was a high school math teacher in the San 0:12:18.236 --> 0:12:22.076 Francisco Public schools and David was in my class. And 0:12:22.196 --> 0:12:25.036 I noticed from you know, the first week of school 0:12:25.116 --> 0:12:28.116 that this kid, David really liked math, and frankly was 0:12:28.156 --> 0:12:31.156 pretty talented, but apparently not talented enough to have made 0:12:31.196 --> 0:12:33.996 it past the cut score that would have placed him 0:12:34.036 --> 0:12:36.596 in his freshman year in a higher level math class. 0:12:36.836 --> 0:12:39.076 So I marched David over to the department share whose 0:12:39.156 --> 0:12:41.316 name was Liz, and I say, Liz, like, you know, 0:12:41.476 --> 0:12:44.156 a grievous error has been made. This kid should be 0:12:44.196 --> 0:12:46.556 in the higher level math class. And Liz is amazing, 0:12:47.196 --> 0:12:49.956 and she moved things around. So what happened next, Well, 0:12:50.276 --> 0:12:53.316 David graduated from high school and then he went on 0:12:53.356 --> 0:12:58.276 to get a PhD in aerospace engineering as somebody who 0:12:58.276 --> 0:13:00.716 basically uses math every day. And so I think the 0:13:01.316 --> 0:13:05.116 lesson of David is that it's very easy to make 0:13:05.116 --> 0:13:08.316 a mistake, you know, about somebody's potential. You know, like 0:13:08.356 --> 0:13:10.436 oh they're sah, she scores not high enough. You know, 0:13:10.476 --> 0:13:12.356 it's like, oh, you're not gifted and talented. But these 0:13:12.356 --> 0:13:14.956 other kids, they are gifted and talented. You know, these 0:13:15.036 --> 0:13:17.796 kids they're going to go to AP calculus. Those kids 0:13:17.876 --> 0:13:19.796 they're not. And we do it all the time, right, 0:13:19.796 --> 0:13:24.276 And I think if we can restructure education in a 0:13:24.316 --> 0:13:27.956 way that doesn't have these like, um, you know, problems 0:13:27.956 --> 0:13:30.476 of off ramps and on ramps where we're like sorting 0:13:30.596 --> 0:13:33.316 kids and frankly we're doing it very early in their life. 0:13:33.436 --> 0:13:35.916 And if we could say instead, hey, if you have 0:13:35.996 --> 0:13:39.036 the motivation and if with support you can keep up 0:13:39.716 --> 0:13:42.476 in these classes, like the door is open. I mean, 0:13:42.516 --> 0:13:44.196 I think that would be a much better way to 0:13:44.276 --> 0:13:46.956 run things. Yeah, And one thing I loved about David's 0:13:46.956 --> 0:13:49.396 story is that when he was moved to the advanced 0:13:49.396 --> 0:13:53.196 class and initially wasn't scoring very well on those early exams, right, 0:13:53.236 --> 0:13:55.876 getting a C and they're getting a D. He brush 0:13:55.956 --> 0:13:57.956 it off. He's like, I wasn't happy about it, But 0:13:58.316 --> 0:14:00.996 you know he didn't. He wasn't demoralized. He didn't give up. 0:14:01.036 --> 0:14:05.236 He just kept working harder. You know that knife edge, right, 0:14:05.356 --> 0:14:07.876 you get a D or a CE. My own daughter, Amanda, 0:14:08.116 --> 0:14:10.996 when she was maybe a little younger than David, I 0:14:10.996 --> 0:14:13.796 think she was still in middle school, but she had 0:14:13.876 --> 0:14:16.756 tested into this more advanced track and so she, you know, 0:14:16.836 --> 0:14:19.636 she settles in and you know, she's getting her first 0:14:19.636 --> 0:14:22.836 exams back. I think she failed. I mean failed. She's 0:14:22.836 --> 0:14:26.076 gonna say like failed, I believe, like the first few 0:14:26.116 --> 0:14:29.156 exams and I had to confess to you, Maya. I 0:14:29.196 --> 0:14:31.636 was like, oh, maybe this isn't for you. I mean 0:14:31.676 --> 0:14:33.396 I looked at this math curriculum and I was like, 0:14:33.716 --> 0:14:36.436 holy smoke, like this is really hard. You get like 0:14:36.596 --> 0:14:39.196 all the way through BC calculus before the end of 0:14:39.276 --> 0:14:41.436 junior year. I was like, why don't you just not 0:14:41.716 --> 0:14:44.236 do this hard thing? And my husband was such a 0:14:44.236 --> 0:14:46.876 better parent than me. He you know, worked with her, 0:14:46.956 --> 0:14:49.276 and I remember the stacks of scrap paper they had. 0:14:49.516 --> 0:14:51.836 I mean, they just put in so much work, and 0:14:51.876 --> 0:14:53.876 I think for him it was very important that at 0:14:53.876 --> 0:14:57.516 that young age that she not encode. I can't do this, 0:14:57.636 --> 0:15:00.316 like I'm not smart enough, like I'm a girl, I'm whatever, 0:15:00.396 --> 0:15:02.996 but like I can't do this. So he didn't really 0:15:02.996 --> 0:15:05.916 care that she, you know, became a mathematician. But I 0:15:05.956 --> 0:15:07.876 will tell you what the epilogue of that story is 0:15:08.156 --> 0:15:12.956 Amanda's twine. She is um on track to being a 0:15:12.996 --> 0:15:16.236 math major at Harvard Um. You know, she would not 0:15:16.596 --> 0:15:18.836 say that things come easily to her, like she would 0:15:18.876 --> 0:15:20.916 not say that like in her math classes, you know, 0:15:21.636 --> 0:15:24.636 you know she's the fastest or that you but she 0:15:24.756 --> 0:15:27.716 does love math. And I think those early experiences where 0:15:28.036 --> 0:15:31.596 it was a threat to her you know, self image, 0:15:31.596 --> 0:15:33.636 but then that she had a loving parent who I 0:15:33.636 --> 0:15:35.196 wish I could say it was me, but it was 0:15:35.556 --> 0:15:38.156 it was my you know, my better half. I just 0:15:38.196 --> 0:15:40.636 think that's really important. And I know that one of 0:15:40.676 --> 0:15:42.996 the things that you have worked, you know, you know, 0:15:43.036 --> 0:15:45.676 so hard on his equity, and I think that, like, 0:15:45.756 --> 0:15:48.356 you know, one of the very deep issues in this 0:15:48.436 --> 0:15:51.236 country is like how many kids have somebody in their 0:15:51.276 --> 0:15:53.996 life who's going to do what my husband did for 0:15:54.116 --> 0:15:56.436 my daughter, or do what I had time to do 0:15:56.476 --> 0:15:58.716 with David and his you know his other teachers, and 0:15:59.076 --> 0:16:01.476 you know how much you know wasted potential is there, 0:16:01.476 --> 0:16:03.356 and how many kids are walking around thinking they're not 0:16:03.396 --> 0:16:06.516 that smart because you know they haven't had the opportunity 0:16:06.636 --> 0:16:11.836 to see what they can do. We'll be back in 0:16:11.876 --> 0:16:26.356 a moment that the slight change of plants. We're back 0:16:26.356 --> 0:16:29.196 with Angela Duckworth. He's teaching us about the science of 0:16:29.276 --> 0:16:31.916 grit and how it can help us achieve our goals. 0:16:32.756 --> 0:16:35.316 Once we've cultivated grit, the next step is to make 0:16:35.316 --> 0:16:37.716 sure we channel whatever grit we do have in the 0:16:37.796 --> 0:16:42.196 right way, and this is where deliberate practice comes into play. 0:16:42.716 --> 0:16:46.276 Deliberate practice is a term that was coined by Andres Erickson, 0:16:46.676 --> 0:16:50.076 who was a great cognitive psychologist. I mean really he 0:16:50.156 --> 0:16:54.756 was the world expert on world experts and really believe strongly. 0:16:54.796 --> 0:16:57.156 He always, you know, would talk about growing up in 0:16:57.196 --> 0:17:01.716 Sweden in a family that you know shared with him 0:17:01.716 --> 0:17:03.836 the worldview that like honors you know, if you're really 0:17:03.876 --> 0:17:07.196 interested in something and you are willing to work hard 0:17:07.236 --> 0:17:09.476 at it, like who would be the one to say 0:17:09.476 --> 0:17:12.156 that you couldn't do great things? So he grew up 0:17:12.156 --> 0:17:15.196 without a kind of talent myth in his own personal life, 0:17:15.196 --> 0:17:17.196 but then he encountered it as he you know, would 0:17:17.196 --> 0:17:20.236 then move on into like, you know, wider circles. And 0:17:20.916 --> 0:17:23.596 so a lot of his research was on the practice 0:17:23.716 --> 0:17:26.676 element of excellence. In fact, you could argue, like all 0:17:26.676 --> 0:17:28.956 of his research in some ways was that there are 0:17:29.796 --> 0:17:32.476 let's say three elements, but if you if you count 0:17:32.516 --> 0:17:33.916 the fact that you have to do them again and 0:17:33.956 --> 0:17:37.516 again in repetition, then you could say, Therefore, of deliberate practice, 0:17:38.116 --> 0:17:40.876 one is that when you're practicing something right, and we're 0:17:40.916 --> 0:17:42.996 all practicing something right, you know, you want to make 0:17:43.036 --> 0:17:45.516 a better on lit, you want to be a better podcaster, 0:17:45.676 --> 0:17:48.116 you want to be a better writer, better leader, better mother, 0:17:48.236 --> 0:17:50.276 or whatever whatever it is that you're working on, you 0:17:50.316 --> 0:17:54.316 have to actually fractionate your overall performance into like tiny parts. 0:17:54.316 --> 0:17:56.676 And what experts do is they only work at one 0:17:56.796 --> 0:17:58.676 thing at a time. So this is kind of laser 0:17:58.716 --> 0:18:04.516 like focus on one small element of their overall performance. Right. Yeah, 0:18:04.556 --> 0:18:07.596 I love this notion of sub goals and it reminds 0:18:07.636 --> 0:18:10.996 me when I was working in government in public policy, 0:18:11.516 --> 0:18:14.076 there was research coming out on how we can motivate 0:18:14.196 --> 0:18:17.036 folks to seek employment after they lost their jobs. So 0:18:17.076 --> 0:18:20.716 folks that are on unemployment insurance, and it's very psychologically 0:18:20.756 --> 0:18:24.596 daunting to say my goal is to find work, and 0:18:24.636 --> 0:18:28.356 so parsing it into these micro steps, these more manageable steps, 0:18:28.396 --> 0:18:31.116 like Tomorrow, I'm going to go get a business suit. Friday, 0:18:31.156 --> 0:18:34.196 I'm going to edit the top half of my CV. Saturday, 0:18:34.196 --> 0:18:37.596 I'm going to reach out to three different employers. You know, 0:18:37.956 --> 0:18:41.836 that type of technique was so effective and accelerating people's 0:18:41.876 --> 0:18:45.076 success when it came to finding work. You know, whether 0:18:45.116 --> 0:18:47.956 it's learning to walk again or whether to write you know, 0:18:47.996 --> 0:18:51.396 how to write a book? You know what does anything 0:18:51.436 --> 0:18:54.116 that's daunting to you, like applying to college, you know, 0:18:54.436 --> 0:18:58.716 getting your driver's license. You know the secret to doing 0:18:58.716 --> 0:19:00.956 those things is to not do the big thing, but 0:19:01.116 --> 0:19:03.916 to make it into manageable small things. And if you 0:19:03.956 --> 0:19:06.836 ask me how small, I would say, you can't go 0:19:06.916 --> 0:19:09.836 too small and and and that is because like, if 0:19:09.876 --> 0:19:12.236 you do accomplish the tiny, tiny goal that you set, 0:19:12.556 --> 0:19:14.756 guess what, you just have more confidence going into the 0:19:14.796 --> 0:19:18.556 next one. Yeah. So we've talked about articulating specific goals 0:19:18.636 --> 0:19:23.956 versus general goals. What's next after that second element is 0:19:23.996 --> 0:19:27.116 that you really have to focus one hundred percent I mean, 0:19:27.356 --> 0:19:29.956 you have to try. You know, it's like the opposite 0:19:29.996 --> 0:19:33.636 of multitasking. And I know this sounds kind of simple 0:19:33.716 --> 0:19:37.116 and straightforward and obvious, but just as an indication of 0:19:37.116 --> 0:19:40.996 what honors means, I mean, really, the top performers that 0:19:41.076 --> 0:19:44.276 he tended to study would only do true deliberate practice 0:19:44.276 --> 0:19:46.476 at this level of focus and concentration for a few 0:19:46.516 --> 0:19:49.996 hours a day. Was seemingly not possible to do much 0:19:50.036 --> 0:19:52.036 more than that, even at the peak of your powers. 0:19:52.436 --> 0:19:56.076 So that's full concentration and effort. And then the third 0:19:56.156 --> 0:20:00.476 element is feedback. And feedback is that gift that you know, 0:20:00.956 --> 0:20:03.036 we don't want to unwrap, right, And I think one 0:20:03.076 --> 0:20:06.236 of the remarkable things about these world class performers, you know, 0:20:06.316 --> 0:20:08.676 much more than their gold medals or their statues or 0:20:08.716 --> 0:20:12.796 their te fees, is that they are remarkably open to 0:20:13.196 --> 0:20:17.836 and even eager for feedback, especially when it's critical. And 0:20:17.956 --> 0:20:20.556 that's the remarkable thing. So, so, do those three things 0:20:20.676 --> 0:20:23.276 have a precise goal, what exactly it is that you're 0:20:23.276 --> 0:20:26.036 working on. Work on that with one hundred percent focus 0:20:26.076 --> 0:20:30.756 and attention. Get feedback usually immediately is the best. And 0:20:30.796 --> 0:20:35.916 then after processing that feedback, repeat the cycle. Okay, So 0:20:35.996 --> 0:20:39.076 now we've got our four strategies for building grit and 0:20:39.236 --> 0:20:42.276 a deeper understanding of what it means to really practice. 0:20:42.836 --> 0:20:46.756 So we're all set right, Not quite, And that's because 0:20:46.836 --> 0:20:50.116 temptations of all kinds creep into our daily lives and 0:20:50.196 --> 0:20:54.156 prevent us from acting on these recommendations. And so Angela 0:20:54.396 --> 0:20:57.716 being Angela has four tips to help us reel in 0:20:57.756 --> 0:21:02.076 the temptations. My number one trick for this is is 0:21:02.116 --> 0:21:06.436 to use your situation for you, not against you. If 0:21:06.436 --> 0:21:08.276 you're on your cell phone too much, don't keep it 0:21:08.316 --> 0:21:10.516 in your bedroom, you know, keep it based down, keep 0:21:10.516 --> 0:21:12.996 it on a high shelf. Frankly, give it to somebody 0:21:13.116 --> 0:21:15.436 else and have them take it away from you. I 0:21:15.476 --> 0:21:18.036 think that's probably the ultimate self control trick. But that's 0:21:18.036 --> 0:21:20.636 all about your situation. You can say, look, if the 0:21:20.796 --> 0:21:23.916 situation is really influential, you know, I'll put my sneakers 0:21:23.956 --> 0:21:26.716 by the door to remind me. I'll I'll like, you know, 0:21:26.916 --> 0:21:29.316 find a gym that's closer to me. I'll find a 0:21:29.316 --> 0:21:32.076 form of exercise that's that's more fun for me. And 0:21:32.156 --> 0:21:35.756 all these ways are changing the situation and not changing willpower. 0:21:36.316 --> 0:21:39.756 The second trick is to change where you pay attention. 0:21:40.116 --> 0:21:43.676 You know, Bob Mankoff, the editor of the New Yorker 0:21:43.756 --> 0:21:46.916 Cartoons for for many years. You know, he would actually 0:21:47.196 --> 0:21:50.796 point his you know body, like away from the monitor 0:21:50.836 --> 0:21:52.956 that had his email because when he had really hard 0:21:53.036 --> 0:21:55.436