1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:33,476 Speaker 1: Pushkin. What makes a great graphic designer? You know, same 2 00:00:33,676 --> 00:00:36,876 Speaker 1: as like a great ballerina, but also the same as 3 00:00:36,916 --> 00:00:39,716 Speaker 1: like a world class mathematician, but also the same as 4 00:00:39,716 --> 00:00:42,316 Speaker 1: a civic activists, Like, what do they have in common? 5 00:00:43,236 --> 00:00:47,916 Speaker 1: According to psychologist Angela Duckworth, the answer is grit, a 6 00:00:48,076 --> 00:00:53,316 Speaker 1: power combo of passion and perseverance. Angela says natural ability 7 00:00:53,356 --> 00:00:56,396 Speaker 1: and access to opportunity will of course give you a 8 00:00:56,436 --> 00:00:59,076 Speaker 1: head start, but they alone won't get you to the 9 00:00:59,116 --> 00:01:02,636 Speaker 1: finish line, and focusing too much on natural ability can 10 00:01:02,676 --> 00:01:06,436 Speaker 1: be counterproductive because it's something we can't change about ourselves. 11 00:01:07,036 --> 00:01:10,156 Speaker 1: So when it comes to reaching our big goals, Angela 12 00:01:10,236 --> 00:01:12,676 Speaker 1: wants us to reorient our focus to the thing we 13 00:01:12,836 --> 00:01:16,436 Speaker 1: can change, which is the sustained effort we pour into 14 00:01:16,436 --> 00:01:19,516 Speaker 1: the things we care about. When we say like, oh, well, 15 00:01:19,556 --> 00:01:21,836 Speaker 1: you know she or he's a genius and I'm not. 16 00:01:22,116 --> 00:01:25,116 Speaker 1: I mean, it really does let you off the hook, right, 17 00:01:25,236 --> 00:01:27,916 Speaker 1: Like if they have something you don't have some magical 18 00:01:28,556 --> 00:01:32,036 Speaker 1: X factor, right then you don't have any obligation to 19 00:01:32,076 --> 00:01:34,636 Speaker 1: wake up at five in the morning and train and 20 00:01:34,716 --> 00:01:38,396 Speaker 1: to like, you know, do all the hard things. On 21 00:01:38,436 --> 00:01:42,156 Speaker 1: today's episode, Angela Duckworth teaches us how to cultivate grit, 22 00:01:42,396 --> 00:01:45,396 Speaker 1: channel that grit, and resist some of the temptations that 23 00:01:45,516 --> 00:01:49,956 Speaker 1: often get in the way of achieving success. I'm Maya Shunker, 24 00:01:50,156 --> 00:01:52,836 Speaker 1: and this is a slight change of plans, a show 25 00:01:52,876 --> 00:01:55,596 Speaker 1: about who we are and who we become in the 26 00:01:55,636 --> 00:02:11,116 Speaker 1: face of a big change. Angela is a true expert 27 00:02:11,156 --> 00:02:13,956 Speaker 1: on grit. She's been studying the topic for over a 28 00:02:13,996 --> 00:02:17,316 Speaker 1: decade now as a professor at the University of Pennsylvania. 29 00:02:17,756 --> 00:02:21,356 Speaker 1: She's also the recipient of a MacArthur Genius Grant, and 30 00:02:21,476 --> 00:02:24,596 Speaker 1: her TED talk on Passion and Perseverance has garnered over 31 00:02:24,676 --> 00:02:28,756 Speaker 1: twenty five million views. I started at our conversation by 32 00:02:28,836 --> 00:02:31,916 Speaker 1: diving into the basics, starting with the definition of grit. 33 00:02:32,756 --> 00:02:38,236 Speaker 1: I define grit as the combination of passion and perseverance 34 00:02:38,396 --> 00:02:41,836 Speaker 1: over the very long term. So that doesn't mean that 35 00:02:41,876 --> 00:02:43,996 Speaker 1: like every day you're doing the exact same thing, but 36 00:02:44,156 --> 00:02:47,596 Speaker 1: you have a kind of overall ambition or goal, you know, 37 00:02:47,676 --> 00:02:50,396 Speaker 1: like I want to help people live better lives through 38 00:02:50,436 --> 00:02:52,516 Speaker 1: behavioral science. You know, I want to be the best 39 00:02:52,796 --> 00:02:54,916 Speaker 1: pediatrician that I can be. You know, I want to 40 00:02:54,956 --> 00:02:58,036 Speaker 1: be a great musician, whatever it is. And there's also 41 00:02:58,476 --> 00:03:02,596 Speaker 1: a perseverance like working really hard, taking feedback and learning, 42 00:03:02,676 --> 00:03:06,316 Speaker 1: I mean really trying to stay in a game and 43 00:03:06,516 --> 00:03:10,076 Speaker 1: work hard at that game in a resultant way over time. 44 00:03:10,076 --> 00:03:14,276 Speaker 1: So passion and perseverance for long term goals. When I 45 00:03:14,316 --> 00:03:17,756 Speaker 1: was a kid, I remember feeling like it was all 46 00:03:17,796 --> 00:03:22,036 Speaker 1: about natural talent. Like in music school, everyone was so 47 00:03:22,156 --> 00:03:26,996 Speaker 1: quick to try to identify the latest prodigy. Absolutely. I 48 00:03:27,036 --> 00:03:30,116 Speaker 1: remember there was this violinist Rachel. Not that I still 49 00:03:30,156 --> 00:03:33,276 Speaker 1: remember you, Rachel, but you were amazing, hiel hi Rachel. 50 00:03:33,316 --> 00:03:35,076 Speaker 1: I won't say your last name because I don't embarrass you, 51 00:03:35,156 --> 00:03:37,676 Speaker 1: but she was a few years younger than me, and 52 00:03:37,796 --> 00:03:41,636 Speaker 1: she was such a gifted violinist. I mean, I felt 53 00:03:41,636 --> 00:03:44,916 Speaker 1: like everything that was hard for me seemed to come 54 00:03:44,956 --> 00:03:49,996 Speaker 1: easily to her. And rather than internalizing, oh, I guess 55 00:03:50,076 --> 00:03:51,556 Speaker 1: this is a lesson to me that I need to 56 00:03:51,556 --> 00:03:56,636 Speaker 1: work harder, I actually just felt despondent, right. I felt like, Okay, 57 00:03:56,676 --> 00:03:58,796 Speaker 1: well should I just give up? Because I don't have it. 58 00:03:58,876 --> 00:04:01,396 Speaker 1: I don't have what it takes, and so the only 59 00:04:01,396 --> 00:04:04,236 Speaker 1: way forward was for me to just keep practicing. But 60 00:04:04,316 --> 00:04:07,476 Speaker 1: I can't say that wasn't without some suffering and mental 61 00:04:07,596 --> 00:04:10,116 Speaker 1: anguish about the fact that I I always felt like 62 00:04:10,156 --> 00:04:12,836 Speaker 1: I was a little behind, and so I feel so 63 00:04:12,956 --> 00:04:17,396 Speaker 1: passionately about evangelizing your research in this space because I 64 00:04:17,396 --> 00:04:19,876 Speaker 1: feel like I fell victim to aspects of it as 65 00:04:19,876 --> 00:04:22,716 Speaker 1: a child. Right, it actually hurt my psychology. Do you 66 00:04:23,076 --> 00:04:26,156 Speaker 1: do you know the research of Chia Jung. Say you've 67 00:04:26,196 --> 00:04:28,636 Speaker 1: wrote about her in your book, right, yeah, okay, right, 68 00:04:28,676 --> 00:04:32,196 Speaker 1: so exactly, and I wrote about how Chio was a 69 00:04:32,276 --> 00:04:36,596 Speaker 1: musician like you, right, and how she I think, you know, 70 00:04:36,676 --> 00:04:40,316 Speaker 1: given her personal experience with music. I mean I think 71 00:04:40,316 --> 00:04:43,116 Speaker 1: that music in particular, Right, there are certain domains where, 72 00:04:43,316 --> 00:04:46,396 Speaker 1: you know, people talk about prodigies, and you know, there 73 00:04:46,436 --> 00:04:49,276 Speaker 1: are YouTube videos of prodigies and really is amazing. And 74 00:04:49,276 --> 00:04:51,676 Speaker 1: you see a kid who's five, you know, do something 75 00:04:51,756 --> 00:04:54,236 Speaker 1: that it just makes you think, like that must be 76 00:04:54,276 --> 00:04:58,036 Speaker 1: something that's born, not made, and those people are special, 77 00:04:58,756 --> 00:05:03,076 Speaker 1: and like you, she really felt, I mean so impassionate 78 00:05:03,116 --> 00:05:05,876 Speaker 1: about like, hey, you know, come see the thousands of 79 00:05:05,916 --> 00:05:09,436 Speaker 1: hours of practice. And you won't use the word now natural, 80 00:05:09,676 --> 00:05:12,556 Speaker 1: you know, so flippantly, And I'll just say that, you know, 81 00:05:12,596 --> 00:05:15,596 Speaker 1: it's not that anybody, or at least that I would 82 00:05:15,596 --> 00:05:17,876 Speaker 1: say that we're all equally talented I mean I think 83 00:05:17,916 --> 00:05:20,836 Speaker 1: that would be right, like ridiculous. And I think the 84 00:05:21,356 --> 00:05:24,316 Speaker 1: key is is that you know, when you're young and 85 00:05:24,356 --> 00:05:26,196 Speaker 1: you're trying to figure out like should I keep going 86 00:05:26,276 --> 00:05:28,196 Speaker 1: or should I not keep going? Or Frankly, I guess 87 00:05:28,236 --> 00:05:32,076 Speaker 1: at any age, if you just obsess about these differences 88 00:05:32,476 --> 00:05:34,676 Speaker 1: in things that you can't change, I do think it 89 00:05:34,756 --> 00:05:38,596 Speaker 1: can overshadow you know, the things that you can change, 90 00:05:38,756 --> 00:05:40,876 Speaker 1: right and um, and all those thousands of hours of 91 00:05:40,916 --> 00:05:43,916 Speaker 1: practice that that you put in, that you have put in, 92 00:05:44,236 --> 00:05:46,676 Speaker 1: you know, those are like not very fun to watch 93 00:05:46,716 --> 00:05:49,556 Speaker 1: on YouTube. Frankly, yeah, um, you know I want to 94 00:05:49,596 --> 00:05:53,516 Speaker 1: hear Maria Angela? Why why are we such suckers for 95 00:05:53,676 --> 00:05:55,956 Speaker 1: natural ability? Like I was talking with my husband the 96 00:05:55,956 --> 00:05:59,596 Speaker 1: other night and he was saying, in high school, you're 97 00:05:59,676 --> 00:06:03,036 Speaker 1: really cool if you got good grades without trying at all. 98 00:06:03,156 --> 00:06:05,236 Speaker 1: And by the way, I mean really cool in very 99 00:06:05,276 --> 00:06:07,956 Speaker 1: nerdy circles. I say, just to clarify, I go to 100 00:06:08,476 --> 00:06:11,276 Speaker 1: just to clarify, I just to clarify. But it's like, oh, 101 00:06:11,356 --> 00:06:13,916 Speaker 1: he got to be plus without studying, Like imagine if 102 00:06:13,956 --> 00:06:15,956 Speaker 1: he had study, you know, And there's this this is 103 00:06:16,036 --> 00:06:20,116 Speaker 1: aura around people who don't try hard. What in our 104 00:06:20,196 --> 00:06:25,036 Speaker 1: human behavior gives rise to this fascination with natural ability. Well, 105 00:06:25,036 --> 00:06:28,036 Speaker 1: I can only speculate, but people do have a preference 106 00:06:28,156 --> 00:06:31,396 Speaker 1: for people that we consider it to be naturals, and 107 00:06:31,836 --> 00:06:34,956 Speaker 1: we prefer them over strivers, even when we know that 108 00:06:34,996 --> 00:06:37,436 Speaker 1: they have accomplished the same thing. And you know, I 109 00:06:37,476 --> 00:06:40,476 Speaker 1: remember reading what Nietzsche wrote about this, and he said, 110 00:06:40,516 --> 00:06:42,876 Speaker 1: you know, when we consider that other people are naturals, 111 00:06:42,876 --> 00:06:45,636 Speaker 1: but we aren't, right when we say, like, oh, well, 112 00:06:45,676 --> 00:06:47,996 Speaker 1: you know she or he's a genius and I'm not. 113 00:06:48,236 --> 00:06:51,796 Speaker 1: I mean, it really does like let you off the hook, right, 114 00:06:51,916 --> 00:06:54,556 Speaker 1: Like if they have something, you don't have some magical 115 00:06:55,556 --> 00:06:59,036 Speaker 1: X factor, right, then you don't have any obligation to 116 00:06:59,036 --> 00:07:01,356 Speaker 1: wake up at five in the morning and and train 117 00:07:01,556 --> 00:07:03,716 Speaker 1: and to like, you know, do all the hard things. 118 00:07:03,796 --> 00:07:06,516 Speaker 1: I think there's at least a part of it that's 119 00:07:06,556 --> 00:07:09,036 Speaker 1: like that. And you know, there's something kind of fun 120 00:07:09,236 --> 00:07:11,996 Speaker 1: about thinking that people are like demigods or like we 121 00:07:12,036 --> 00:07:14,596 Speaker 1: tell little kids like, oh, you're a child prodigy in 122 00:07:15,116 --> 00:07:18,116 Speaker 1: piano or painting. I think there's just something fun and 123 00:07:18,276 --> 00:07:20,756 Speaker 1: mystical about it too, right, Like we like to think 124 00:07:20,756 --> 00:07:24,596 Speaker 1: they're they're just qualitatively different. I do think though, that 125 00:07:24,716 --> 00:07:27,636 Speaker 1: if we can, you know, till things such that the 126 00:07:27,796 --> 00:07:31,436 Speaker 1: honor and the glory goes to people who have earned 127 00:07:31,956 --> 00:07:35,436 Speaker 1: what they do in a very transparent way that's maybe 128 00:07:35,476 --> 00:07:39,156 Speaker 1: not as romantic, then we will be doing a great 129 00:07:39,156 --> 00:07:42,356 Speaker 1: service to our kids, because I mean, I really don't 130 00:07:42,436 --> 00:07:46,476 Speaker 1: know anybody who has become world class and economics or 131 00:07:46,516 --> 00:07:50,596 Speaker 1: at being a political leader or anything else. You know, 132 00:07:50,716 --> 00:07:53,756 Speaker 1: a classroom teacher, a nurse like without you know, just 133 00:07:54,076 --> 00:07:56,756 Speaker 1: years and years of effort. So at this point in 134 00:07:56,756 --> 00:07:59,876 Speaker 1: our conversation, Angela has made a strong argument for the 135 00:07:59,916 --> 00:08:03,596 Speaker 1: importance of grit. But it's grit like talent, one of 136 00:08:03,636 --> 00:08:06,476 Speaker 1: those things you've either got or you don't like. In 137 00:08:06,556 --> 00:08:10,076 Speaker 1: addition to raw talent, did Rachel the Violent also have 138 00:08:10,236 --> 00:08:13,916 Speaker 1: more grit than me? Okay, she probably did that. That's 139 00:08:13,956 --> 00:08:16,916 Speaker 1: because she's Rachel and so of course she did. But 140 00:08:17,076 --> 00:08:21,556 Speaker 1: here's the good news. We can cultivate grit. Angela says 141 00:08:21,596 --> 00:08:23,996 Speaker 1: there are four key things we can all do in 142 00:08:24,036 --> 00:08:27,756 Speaker 1: our lives to build some grit. Number one, find out 143 00:08:27,756 --> 00:08:31,436 Speaker 1: what interests you. People who are really gritty have this 144 00:08:31,516 --> 00:08:34,916 Speaker 1: intrinsic interest and curiosity about what they're doing, so you can, 145 00:08:35,396 --> 00:08:37,716 Speaker 1: you know, start a book club. If you're at work 146 00:08:37,756 --> 00:08:39,396 Speaker 1: in a job and you're like, hey, I don't learn 147 00:08:39,396 --> 00:08:41,636 Speaker 1: a lot, you can, you know, start listening to a 148 00:08:41,676 --> 00:08:44,716 Speaker 1: podcast like this one that you know really engages your mind, etc. 149 00:08:45,036 --> 00:08:48,556 Speaker 1: But interest, I think is the first seed of passion. 150 00:08:48,996 --> 00:08:52,356 Speaker 1: You know, interests are you know, what naturally grabs our attention. 151 00:08:52,396 --> 00:08:54,476 Speaker 1: I think that's the best definition of what an interest is. 152 00:08:54,476 --> 00:08:57,756 Speaker 1: It's like, you know, without effort or without will, you 153 00:08:57,836 --> 00:09:00,196 Speaker 1: just want to think about it. Yeah, And one thing 154 00:09:00,196 --> 00:09:04,196 Speaker 1: you've said is that our interests actually remain relatively stable 155 00:09:04,316 --> 00:09:06,836 Speaker 1: over the course of our lives and even our personalities. 156 00:09:07,116 --> 00:09:09,556 Speaker 1: And so one way we can identify what we're naturally 157 00:09:09,596 --> 00:09:12,476 Speaker 1: interested in is to look back at our childhood and 158 00:09:12,756 --> 00:09:14,916 Speaker 1: try and remember what it is that lit us up 159 00:09:14,996 --> 00:09:17,196 Speaker 1: or made us tick. I do want to say, man, 160 00:09:17,316 --> 00:09:19,596 Speaker 1: it's important to know that, you know, interests evolved, so 161 00:09:19,636 --> 00:09:21,956 Speaker 1: they're not static. So it's not like, you know, if 162 00:09:21,956 --> 00:09:24,836 Speaker 1: you're interested in something when you're fourteen, that's exactly what 163 00:09:24,916 --> 00:09:27,636 Speaker 1: you'll be interested in when you're fifty four. But I 164 00:09:27,676 --> 00:09:30,076 Speaker 1: do think actually, if you introspect a little bit and 165 00:09:30,116 --> 00:09:33,476 Speaker 1: you remember what you were like in high school, right, 166 00:09:33,556 --> 00:09:37,316 Speaker 1: this is during the period of adolescence when interests tend 167 00:09:37,436 --> 00:09:41,116 Speaker 1: to get more specific and differentiated. And if you think 168 00:09:41,116 --> 00:09:43,356 Speaker 1: back enough, I think back, you know, to my own 169 00:09:43,716 --> 00:09:46,756 Speaker 1: sixteen and seventeen year old self, what was I interested in? Well? 170 00:09:46,796 --> 00:09:49,956 Speaker 1: I signed up for a summer school class in psychology, 171 00:09:50,516 --> 00:09:52,956 Speaker 1: and I signed up for a summer school class in 172 00:09:53,036 --> 00:09:57,756 Speaker 1: nonfiction writing. Right, I didn't pick chemistry, I didn't pick philosophy. 173 00:09:57,796 --> 00:10:00,196 Speaker 1: I didn't pick up So I think in some ways, 174 00:10:00,236 --> 00:10:02,316 Speaker 1: you know, what do I do now? Well, I do 175 00:10:02,356 --> 00:10:04,636 Speaker 1: a lot of psychology and I do a lot of 176 00:10:04,676 --> 00:10:07,996 Speaker 1: nonfiction writing. So I do think that trip down memory 177 00:10:08,076 --> 00:10:11,956 Speaker 1: lane can sometimes just you know, remind us in a 178 00:10:11,996 --> 00:10:15,796 Speaker 1: way of the things. But another tip for you if 179 00:10:15,836 --> 00:10:18,716 Speaker 1: you don't want to just introspect, is like literally ask 180 00:10:18,796 --> 00:10:22,116 Speaker 1: the people that you that you love most. You know, 181 00:10:22,196 --> 00:10:24,796 Speaker 1: if I asked my husband, like Jason, what am I 182 00:10:24,836 --> 00:10:26,756 Speaker 1: interested in? I mean, it sounds like a crazy thing 183 00:10:26,796 --> 00:10:28,996 Speaker 1: to ask, like shouldn't I know? But he will tell 184 00:10:29,036 --> 00:10:30,756 Speaker 1: me what he observes. He's like, well, when I see 185 00:10:30,756 --> 00:10:32,996 Speaker 1: you read the newspaper, you're always reading the food section, 186 00:10:33,596 --> 00:10:36,076 Speaker 1: vows you know, Like He's like, you just when we 187 00:10:36,116 --> 00:10:38,196 Speaker 1: went to visit houses, when we were shopping for houses 188 00:10:38,916 --> 00:10:42,236 Speaker 1: instead of asking about the plumbing and the mortgage and 189 00:10:42,276 --> 00:10:46,116 Speaker 1: the abatement. I was like, so then they got divorced, 190 00:10:46,196 --> 00:10:48,236 Speaker 1: and then what happened the routes are was like, well, 191 00:10:48,236 --> 00:10:50,836 Speaker 1: and then and my husband was like and this has 192 00:10:50,876 --> 00:10:52,836 Speaker 1: nothing to do with this house, And I'm like, I know, 193 00:10:52,916 --> 00:10:55,236 Speaker 1: but it's so interesting. I just want to know. So 194 00:10:55,516 --> 00:10:58,396 Speaker 1: that's me and human nature. So take a trip down 195 00:10:58,396 --> 00:11:01,076 Speaker 1: memory lane. But also ask some people who know you 196 00:11:01,156 --> 00:11:02,476 Speaker 1: and love you, you know, what do you think I'm 197 00:11:02,516 --> 00:11:04,956 Speaker 1: interested in? And I think you might learn something. Yeah, 198 00:11:04,996 --> 00:11:06,676 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, you and I are totally the same. 199 00:11:06,716 --> 00:11:08,996 Speaker 1: That's always my interest too. I must not buy a 200 00:11:10,396 --> 00:11:14,756 Speaker 1: terrible fathay. Angela's second tip for building grit. Once you 201 00:11:14,836 --> 00:11:18,996 Speaker 1: found an interest, go all in, engage in focus, practice, 202 00:11:19,076 --> 00:11:22,756 Speaker 1: and set clear goals. Step three is all about thinking 203 00:11:22,756 --> 00:11:26,516 Speaker 1: about the big picture. Angela says to ask yourself, why 204 00:11:26,556 --> 00:11:28,996 Speaker 1: are you doing the thing you're doing, what's your sense 205 00:11:28,996 --> 00:11:34,196 Speaker 1: of purpose? And then, finally step four, cultivate a growth mindset, 206 00:11:34,756 --> 00:11:36,636 Speaker 1: which is the idea that we should think about our 207 00:11:36,676 --> 00:11:39,276 Speaker 1: mind as a muscle that can grow with hard work 208 00:11:39,276 --> 00:11:45,876 Speaker 1: and perseverance. Basically, being optimistic about how people's abilities can change, 209 00:11:46,356 --> 00:11:49,636 Speaker 1: and how we're not necessarily as fixed as sometimes we're 210 00:11:49,636 --> 00:11:53,436 Speaker 1: tempted to think we are. And it's something that you know, 211 00:11:53,516 --> 00:11:56,596 Speaker 1: I'm still working on. I saw him slip into a 212 00:11:56,636 --> 00:11:59,636 Speaker 1: fixed mindset sometimes, and I try to let my growth 213 00:11:59,716 --> 00:12:04,356 Speaker 1: mindset voice have it say. One person who inspires Angela 214 00:12:04,396 --> 00:12:07,196 Speaker 1: to keep her growth mindset front and center is a 215 00:12:07,196 --> 00:12:10,836 Speaker 1: former student of hers, David law. So David Long I 216 00:12:10,916 --> 00:12:15,356 Speaker 1: met years ago when METSI more than twenty maybe now. 217 00:12:15,676 --> 00:12:18,116 Speaker 1: I was a high school math teacher in the San 218 00:12:18,236 --> 00:12:22,076 Speaker 1: Francisco Public schools and David was in my class. And 219 00:12:22,196 --> 00:12:25,036 Speaker 1: I noticed from you know, the first week of school 220 00:12:25,116 --> 00:12:28,116 Speaker 1: that this kid, David really liked math, and frankly was 221 00:12:28,156 --> 00:12:31,156 Speaker 1: pretty talented, but apparently not talented enough to have made 222 00:12:31,196 --> 00:12:33,996 Speaker 1: it past the cut score that would have placed him 223 00:12:34,036 --> 00:12:36,596 Speaker 1: in his freshman year in a higher level math class. 224 00:12:36,836 --> 00:12:39,076 Speaker 1: So I marched David over to the department share whose 225 00:12:39,156 --> 00:12:41,316 Speaker 1: name was Liz, and I say, Liz, like, you know, 226 00:12:41,476 --> 00:12:44,156 Speaker 1: a grievous error has been made. This kid should be 227 00:12:44,196 --> 00:12:46,556 Speaker 1: in the higher level math class. And Liz is amazing, 228 00:12:47,196 --> 00:12:49,956 Speaker 1: and she moved things around. So what happened next, Well, 229 00:12:50,276 --> 00:12:53,316 Speaker 1: David graduated from high school and then he went on 230 00:12:53,356 --> 00:12:58,276 Speaker 1: to get a PhD in aerospace engineering as somebody who 231 00:12:58,276 --> 00:13:00,716 Speaker 1: basically uses math every day. And so I think the 232 00:13:01,316 --> 00:13:05,116 Speaker 1: lesson of David is that it's very easy to make 233 00:13:05,116 --> 00:13:08,316 Speaker 1: a mistake, you know, about somebody's potential. You know, like 234 00:13:08,356 --> 00:13:10,436 Speaker 1: oh they're sah, she scores not high enough. You know, 235 00:13:10,476 --> 00:13:12,356 Speaker 1: it's like, oh, you're not gifted and talented. But these 236 00:13:12,356 --> 00:13:14,956 Speaker 1: other kids, they are gifted and talented. You know, these 237 00:13:15,036 --> 00:13:17,796 Speaker 1: kids they're going to go to AP calculus. Those kids 238 00:13:17,876 --> 00:13:19,796 Speaker 1: they're not. And we do it all the time, right, 239 00:13:19,796 --> 00:13:24,276 Speaker 1: And I think if we can restructure education in a 240 00:13:24,316 --> 00:13:27,956 Speaker 1: way that doesn't have these like, um, you know, problems 241 00:13:27,956 --> 00:13:30,476 Speaker 1: of off ramps and on ramps where we're like sorting 242 00:13:30,596 --> 00:13:33,316 Speaker 1: kids and frankly we're doing it very early in their life. 243 00:13:33,436 --> 00:13:35,916 Speaker 1: And if we could say instead, hey, if you have 244 00:13:35,996 --> 00:13:39,036 Speaker 1: the motivation and if with support you can keep up 245 00:13:39,716 --> 00:13:42,476 Speaker 1: in these classes, like the door is open. I mean, 246 00:13:42,516 --> 00:13:44,196 Speaker 1: I think that would be a much better way to 247 00:13:44,276 --> 00:13:46,956 Speaker 1: run things. Yeah, And one thing I loved about David's 248 00:13:46,956 --> 00:13:49,396 Speaker 1: story is that when he was moved to the advanced 249 00:13:49,396 --> 00:13:53,196 Speaker 1: class and initially wasn't scoring very well on those early exams, right, 250 00:13:53,236 --> 00:13:55,876 Speaker 1: getting a C and they're getting a D. He brush 251 00:13:55,956 --> 00:13:57,956 Speaker 1: it off. He's like, I wasn't happy about it, But 252 00:13:58,316 --> 00:14:00,996 Speaker 1: you know he didn't. He wasn't demoralized. He didn't give up. 253 00:14:01,036 --> 00:14:05,236 Speaker 1: He just kept working harder. You know that knife edge, right, 254 00:14:05,356 --> 00:14:07,876 Speaker 1: you get a D or a CE. My own daughter, Amanda, 255 00:14:08,116 --> 00:14:10,996 Speaker 1: when she was maybe a little younger than David, I 256 00:14:10,996 --> 00:14:13,796 Speaker 1: think she was still in middle school, but she had 257 00:14:13,876 --> 00:14:16,756 Speaker 1: tested into this more advanced track and so she, you know, 258 00:14:16,836 --> 00:14:19,636 Speaker 1: she settles in and you know, she's getting her first 259 00:14:19,636 --> 00:14:22,836 Speaker 1: exams back. I think she failed. I mean failed. She's 260 00:14:22,836 --> 00:14:26,076 Speaker 1: gonna say like failed, I believe, like the first few 261 00:14:26,116 --> 00:14:29,156 Speaker 1: exams and I had to confess to you, Maya. I 262 00:14:29,196 --> 00:14:31,636 Speaker 1: was like, oh, maybe this isn't for you. I mean 263 00:14:31,676 --> 00:14:33,396 Speaker 1: I looked at this math curriculum and I was like, 264 00:14:33,716 --> 00:14:36,436 Speaker 1: holy smoke, like this is really hard. You get like 265 00:14:36,596 --> 00:14:39,196 Speaker 1: all the way through BC calculus before the end of 266 00:14:39,276 --> 00:14:41,436 Speaker 1: junior year. I was like, why don't you just not 267 00:14:41,716 --> 00:14:44,236 Speaker 1: do this hard thing? And my husband was such a 268 00:14:44,236 --> 00:14:46,876 Speaker 1: better parent than me. He you know, worked with her, 269 00:14:46,956 --> 00:14:49,276 Speaker 1: and I remember the stacks of scrap paper they had. 270 00:14:49,516 --> 00:14:51,836 Speaker 1: I mean, they just put in so much work, and 271 00:14:51,876 --> 00:14:53,876 Speaker 1: I think for him it was very important that at 272 00:14:53,876 --> 00:14:57,516 Speaker 1: that young age that she not encode. I can't do this, 273 00:14:57,636 --> 00:15:00,316 Speaker 1: like I'm not smart enough, like I'm a girl, I'm whatever, 274 00:15:00,396 --> 00:15:02,996 Speaker 1: but like I can't do this. So he didn't really 275 00:15:02,996 --> 00:15:05,916 Speaker 1: care that she, you know, became a mathematician. But I 276 00:15:05,956 --> 00:15:07,876 Speaker 1: will tell you what the epilogue of that story is 277 00:15:08,156 --> 00:15:12,956 Speaker 1: Amanda's twine. She is um on track to being a 278 00:15:12,996 --> 00:15:16,236 Speaker 1: math major at Harvard Um. You know, she would not 279 00:15:16,596 --> 00:15:18,836 Speaker 1: say that things come easily to her, like she would 280 00:15:18,876 --> 00:15:20,916 Speaker 1: not say that like in her math classes, you know, 281 00:15:21,636 --> 00:15:24,636 Speaker 1: you know she's the fastest or that you but she 282 00:15:24,756 --> 00:15:27,716 Speaker 1: does love math. And I think those early experiences where 283 00:15:28,036 --> 00:15:31,596 Speaker 1: it was a threat to her you know, self image, 284 00:15:31,596 --> 00:15:33,636 Speaker 1: but then that she had a loving parent who I 285 00:15:33,636 --> 00:15:35,196 Speaker 1: wish I could say it was me, but it was 286 00:15:35,556 --> 00:15:38,156 Speaker 1: it was my you know, my better half. I just 287 00:15:38,196 --> 00:15:40,636 Speaker 1: think that's really important. And I know that one of 288 00:15:40,676 --> 00:15:42,996 Speaker 1: the things that you have worked, you know, you know, 289 00:15:43,036 --> 00:15:45,676 Speaker 1: so hard on his equity, and I think that, like, 290 00:15:45,756 --> 00:15:48,356 Speaker 1: you know, one of the very deep issues in this 291 00:15:48,436 --> 00:15:51,236 Speaker 1: country is like how many kids have somebody in their 292 00:15:51,276 --> 00:15:53,996 Speaker 1: life who's going to do what my husband did for 293 00:15:54,116 --> 00:15:56,436 Speaker 1: my daughter, or do what I had time to do 294 00:15:56,476 --> 00:15:58,716 Speaker 1: with David and his you know his other teachers, and 295 00:15:59,076 --> 00:16:01,476 Speaker 1: you know how much you know wasted potential is there, 296 00:16:01,476 --> 00:16:03,356 Speaker 1: and how many kids are walking around thinking they're not 297 00:16:03,396 --> 00:16:06,516 Speaker 1: that smart because you know they haven't had the opportunity 298 00:16:06,636 --> 00:16:11,836 Speaker 1: to see what they can do. We'll be back in 299 00:16:11,876 --> 00:16:26,356 Speaker 1: a moment that the slight change of plants. We're back 300 00:16:26,356 --> 00:16:29,196 Speaker 1: with Angela Duckworth. He's teaching us about the science of 301 00:16:29,276 --> 00:16:31,916 Speaker 1: grit and how it can help us achieve our goals. 302 00:16:32,756 --> 00:16:35,316 Speaker 1: Once we've cultivated grit, the next step is to make 303 00:16:35,316 --> 00:16:37,716 Speaker 1: sure we channel whatever grit we do have in the 304 00:16:37,796 --> 00:16:42,196 Speaker 1: right way, and this is where deliberate practice comes into play. 305 00:16:42,716 --> 00:16:46,276 Speaker 1: Deliberate practice is a term that was coined by Andres Erickson, 306 00:16:46,676 --> 00:16:50,076 Speaker 1: who was a great cognitive psychologist. I mean really he 307 00:16:50,156 --> 00:16:54,756 Speaker 1: was the world expert on world experts and really believe strongly. 308 00:16:54,796 --> 00:16:57,156 Speaker 1: He always, you know, would talk about growing up in 309 00:16:57,196 --> 00:17:01,716 Speaker 1: Sweden in a family that you know shared with him 310 00:17:01,716 --> 00:17:03,836 Speaker 1: the worldview that like honors you know, if you're really 311 00:17:03,876 --> 00:17:07,196 Speaker 1: interested in something and you are willing to work hard 312 00:17:07,236 --> 00:17:09,476 Speaker 1: at it, like who would be the one to say 313 00:17:09,476 --> 00:17:12,156 Speaker 1: that you couldn't do great things? So he grew up 314 00:17:12,156 --> 00:17:15,196 Speaker 1: without a kind of talent myth in his own personal life, 315 00:17:15,196 --> 00:17:17,196 Speaker 1: but then he encountered it as he you know, would 316 00:17:17,196 --> 00:17:20,236 Speaker 1: then move on into like, you know, wider circles. And 317 00:17:20,916 --> 00:17:23,596 Speaker 1: so a lot of his research was on the practice 318 00:17:23,716 --> 00:17:26,676 Speaker 1: element of excellence. In fact, you could argue, like all 319 00:17:26,676 --> 00:17:28,956 Speaker 1: of his research in some ways was that there are 320 00:17:29,796 --> 00:17:32,476 Speaker 1: let's say three elements, but if you if you count 321 00:17:32,516 --> 00:17:33,916 Speaker 1: the fact that you have to do them again and 322 00:17:33,956 --> 00:17:37,516 Speaker 1: again in repetition, then you could say, Therefore, of deliberate practice, 323 00:17:38,116 --> 00:17:40,876 Speaker 1: one is that when you're practicing something right, and we're 324 00:17:40,916 --> 00:17:42,996 Speaker 1: all practicing something right, you know, you want to make 325 00:17:43,036 --> 00:17:45,516 Speaker 1: a better on lit, you want to be a better podcaster, 326 00:17:45,676 --> 00:17:48,116 Speaker 1: you want to be a better writer, better leader, better mother, 327 00:17:48,236 --> 00:17:50,276 Speaker 1: or whatever whatever it is that you're working on, you 328 00:17:50,316 --> 00:17:54,316 Speaker 1: have to actually fractionate your overall performance into like tiny parts. 329 00:17:54,316 --> 00:17:56,676 Speaker 1: And what experts do is they only work at one 330 00:17:56,796 --> 00:17:58,676 Speaker 1: thing at a time. So this is kind of laser 331 00:17:58,716 --> 00:18:04,516 Speaker 1: like focus on one small element of their overall performance. Right. Yeah, 332 00:18:04,556 --> 00:18:07,596 Speaker 1: I love this notion of sub goals and it reminds 333 00:18:07,636 --> 00:18:10,996 Speaker 1: me when I was working in government in public policy, 334 00:18:11,516 --> 00:18:14,076 Speaker 1: there was research coming out on how we can motivate 335 00:18:14,196 --> 00:18:17,036 Speaker 1: folks to seek employment after they lost their jobs. So 336 00:18:17,076 --> 00:18:20,716 Speaker 1: folks that are on unemployment insurance, and it's very psychologically 337 00:18:20,756 --> 00:18:24,596 Speaker 1: daunting to say my goal is to find work, and 338 00:18:24,636 --> 00:18:28,356 Speaker 1: so parsing it into these micro steps, these more manageable steps, 339 00:18:28,396 --> 00:18:31,116 Speaker 1: like Tomorrow, I'm going to go get a business suit. Friday, 340 00:18:31,156 --> 00:18:34,196 Speaker 1: I'm going to edit the top half of my CV. Saturday, 341 00:18:34,196 --> 00:18:37,596 Speaker 1: I'm going to reach out to three different employers. You know, 342 00:18:37,956 --> 00:18:41,836 Speaker 1: that type of technique was so effective and accelerating people's 343 00:18:41,876 --> 00:18:45,076 Speaker 1: success when it came to finding work. You know, whether 344 00:18:45,116 --> 00:18:47,956 Speaker 1: it's learning to walk again or whether to write you know, 345 00:18:47,996 --> 00:18:51,396 Speaker 1: how to write a book? You know what does anything 346 00:18:51,436 --> 00:18:54,116 Speaker 1: that's daunting to you, like applying to college, you know, 347 00:18:54,436 --> 00:18:58,716 Speaker 1: getting your driver's license. You know the secret to doing 348 00:18:58,716 --> 00:19:00,956 Speaker 1: those things is to not do the big thing, but 349 00:19:01,116 --> 00:19:03,916 Speaker 1: to make it into manageable small things. And if you 350 00:19:03,956 --> 00:19:06,836 Speaker 1: ask me how small, I would say, you can't go 351 00:19:06,916 --> 00:19:09,836 Speaker 1: too small and and and that is because like, if 352 00:19:09,876 --> 00:19:12,236 Speaker 1: you do accomplish the tiny, tiny goal that you set, 353 00:19:12,556 --> 00:19:14,756 Speaker 1: guess what, you just have more confidence going into the 354 00:19:14,796 --> 00:19:18,556 Speaker 1: next one. Yeah. So we've talked about articulating specific goals 355 00:19:18,636 --> 00:19:23,956 Speaker 1: versus general goals. What's next after that second element is 356 00:19:23,996 --> 00:19:27,116 Speaker 1: that you really have to focus one hundred percent I mean, 357 00:19:27,356 --> 00:19:29,956 Speaker 1: you have to try. You know, it's like the opposite 358 00:19:29,996 --> 00:19:33,636 Speaker 1: of multitasking. And I know this sounds kind of simple 359 00:19:33,716 --> 00:19:37,116 Speaker 1: and straightforward and obvious, but just as an indication of 360 00:19:37,116 --> 00:19:40,996 Speaker 1: what honors means, I mean, really, the top performers that 361 00:19:41,076 --> 00:19:44,276 Speaker 1: he tended to study would only do true deliberate practice 362 00:19:44,276 --> 00:19:46,476 Speaker 1: at this level of focus and concentration for a few 363 00:19:46,516 --> 00:19:49,996 Speaker 1: hours a day. Was seemingly not possible to do much 364 00:19:50,036 --> 00:19:52,036 Speaker 1: more than that, even at the peak of your powers. 365 00:19:52,436 --> 00:19:56,076 Speaker 1: So that's full concentration and effort. And then the third 366 00:19:56,156 --> 00:20:00,476 Speaker 1: element is feedback. And feedback is that gift that you know, 367 00:20:00,956 --> 00:20:03,036 Speaker 1: we don't want to unwrap, right, And I think one 368 00:20:03,076 --> 00:20:06,236 Speaker 1: of the remarkable things about these world class performers, you know, 369 00:20:06,316 --> 00:20:08,676 Speaker 1: much more than their gold medals or their statues or 370 00:20:08,716 --> 00:20:12,796 Speaker 1: their te fees, is that they are remarkably open to 371 00:20:13,196 --> 00:20:17,836 Speaker 1: and even eager for feedback, especially when it's critical. And 372 00:20:17,956 --> 00:20:20,556 Speaker 1: that's the remarkable thing. So, so, do those three things 373 00:20:20,676 --> 00:20:23,276 Speaker 1: have a precise goal, what exactly it is that you're 374 00:20:23,276 --> 00:20:26,036 Speaker 1: working on. Work on that with one hundred percent focus 375 00:20:26,076 --> 00:20:30,756 Speaker 1: and attention. Get feedback usually immediately is the best. And 376 00:20:30,796 --> 00:20:35,916 Speaker 1: then after processing that feedback, repeat the cycle. Okay, So 377 00:20:35,996 --> 00:20:39,076 Speaker 1: now we've got our four strategies for building grit and 378 00:20:39,236 --> 00:20:42,276 Speaker 1: a deeper understanding of what it means to really practice. 379 00:20:42,836 --> 00:20:46,756 Speaker 1: So we're all set right, Not quite, And that's because 380 00:20:46,836 --> 00:20:50,116 Speaker 1: temptations of all kinds creep into our daily lives and 381 00:20:50,196 --> 00:20:54,156 Speaker 1: prevent us from acting on these recommendations. And so Angela 382 00:20:54,396 --> 00:20:57,716 Speaker 1: being Angela has four tips to help us reel in 383 00:20:57,756 --> 00:21:02,076 Speaker 1: the temptations. My number one trick for this is is 384 00:21:02,116 --> 00:21:06,436 Speaker 1: to use your situation for you, not against you. If 385 00:21:06,436 --> 00:21:08,276 Speaker 1: you're on your cell phone too much, don't keep it 386 00:21:08,316 --> 00:21:10,516 Speaker 1: in your bedroom, you know, keep it based down, keep 387 00:21:10,516 --> 00:21:12,996 Speaker 1: it on a high shelf. Frankly, give it to somebody 388 00:21:13,116 --> 00:21:15,436 Speaker 1: else and have them take it away from you. I 389 00:21:15,476 --> 00:21:18,036 Speaker 1: think that's probably the ultimate self control trick. But that's 390 00:21:18,036 --> 00:21:20,636 Speaker 1: all about your situation. You can say, look, if the 391 00:21:20,796 --> 00:21:23,916 Speaker 1: situation is really influential, you know, I'll put my sneakers 392 00:21:23,956 --> 00:21:26,716 Speaker 1: by the door to remind me. I'll I'll like, you know, 393 00:21:26,916 --> 00:21:29,316 Speaker 1: find a gym that's closer to me. I'll find a 394 00:21:29,316 --> 00:21:32,076 Speaker 1: form of exercise that's that's more fun for me. And 395 00:21:32,156 --> 00:21:35,756 Speaker 1: all these ways are changing the situation and not changing willpower. 396 00:21:36,316 --> 00:21:39,756 Speaker 1: The second trick is to change where you pay attention. 397 00:21:40,116 --> 00:21:43,676 Speaker 1: You know, Bob Mankoff, the editor of the New Yorker 398 00:21:43,756 --> 00:21:46,916 Speaker 1: Cartoons for for many years. You know, he would actually 399 00:21:47,196 --> 00:21:50,796 Speaker 1: point his you know body, like away from the monitor 400 00:21:50,836 --> 00:21:52,956 Speaker 1: that had his email because when he had really hard 401 00:21:53,036 --> 00:21:55,436 Speaker 1: editorial work to do, like he knew he had to 402 00:21:55,436 --> 00:21:57,916 Speaker 1: like look over here and not look over there. And 403 00:21:57,996 --> 00:22:00,276 Speaker 1: this is very instinctive for many of us, but just 404 00:22:00,516 --> 00:22:04,436 Speaker 1: you know, do it more intentionally. The third trick is 405 00:22:04,476 --> 00:22:06,876 Speaker 1: to actually change the way you think about things. Right, 406 00:22:06,916 --> 00:22:10,516 Speaker 1: so you have to like, you know, maybe you rethink exercise, 407 00:22:10,556 --> 00:22:12,596 Speaker 1: if it's it's on your to do list as a chore, 408 00:22:13,076 --> 00:22:15,956 Speaker 1: could you make it? You know, like Adele has recently said, 409 00:22:16,196 --> 00:22:19,476 Speaker 1: you know her knee time, right, like that shift to 410 00:22:19,996 --> 00:22:22,076 Speaker 1: this is time where I can be me and like, 411 00:22:22,316 --> 00:22:24,356 Speaker 1: you know, nobody else is like asking me to do anything, 412 00:22:24,396 --> 00:22:25,956 Speaker 1: Like I can listen to the music I want, I 413 00:22:25,956 --> 00:22:28,236 Speaker 1: could do whatever I want. Like that's a way of 414 00:22:28,356 --> 00:22:31,356 Speaker 1: changing the way you think about a situation that can 415 00:22:31,396 --> 00:22:34,276 Speaker 1: improve self control. And then fourth, I'm going to say 416 00:22:34,316 --> 00:22:37,676 Speaker 1: something that is you know, really important for anything that 417 00:22:37,716 --> 00:22:39,116 Speaker 1: you want to do, and that's to make a plan. 418 00:22:39,556 --> 00:22:41,676 Speaker 1: You know, if you think, like, oh, that trick about 419 00:22:41,676 --> 00:22:43,916 Speaker 1: cell phones, what a good idea? Or like, oh that 420 00:22:43,996 --> 00:22:47,676 Speaker 1: trick about attention, what a good idea? Well if after this, 421 00:22:47,836 --> 00:22:50,356 Speaker 1: you know, conversation that you listen on a podcast, like, 422 00:22:50,596 --> 00:22:52,876 Speaker 1: you don't make a plan about like when you're going 423 00:22:52,956 --> 00:22:55,116 Speaker 1: to do that, you know it's just going to evaporate 424 00:22:55,236 --> 00:22:57,916 Speaker 1: into the air. So so, in other words, I think 425 00:22:58,076 --> 00:22:59,916 Speaker 1: there are all kinds of tricks, but if you want 426 00:22:59,956 --> 00:23:04,116 Speaker 1: to organize them, change your situation, change your attension, change 427 00:23:04,116 --> 00:23:07,596 Speaker 1: the way you think about your situation, and then finally 428 00:23:07,716 --> 00:23:11,076 Speaker 1: make a plan. In other words, rather than trying hard 429 00:23:11,116 --> 00:23:14,476 Speaker 1: to exert willpower and then failing as we often do, 430 00:23:14,996 --> 00:23:17,556 Speaker 1: it's really about setting up your situation so that you 431 00:23:17,596 --> 00:23:20,916 Speaker 1: don't even need to use willpower. Something it seems many 432 00:23:21,036 --> 00:23:24,516 Speaker 1: kids have already figured out. I love in the Walter 433 00:23:24,596 --> 00:23:27,676 Speaker 1: Michelle's study with the marshmallow tests, And obviously there have 434 00:23:27,716 --> 00:23:31,316 Speaker 1: been some critiques of what the study showed, but there's 435 00:23:31,356 --> 00:23:34,436 Speaker 1: one element that certainly holds, and just for listeners who 436 00:23:34,476 --> 00:23:38,276 Speaker 1: aren't familiar, In this particular study, kids were offered a 437 00:23:38,396 --> 00:23:42,116 Speaker 1: choice between one marshmallow, which would be immediate, but if 438 00:23:42,156 --> 00:23:44,996 Speaker 1: they waited and didn't consume the marshmallow for some period 439 00:23:45,036 --> 00:23:47,756 Speaker 1: of time they would actually be given two. So it's 440 00:23:47,796 --> 00:23:51,836 Speaker 1: a test of delayed gratification and kids willingness to exert 441 00:23:51,876 --> 00:23:54,756 Speaker 1: self control in the moment. And some of the kids 442 00:23:54,756 --> 00:23:58,316 Speaker 1: who are most effective at waiting modified their situation. They 443 00:23:58,316 --> 00:24:01,356 Speaker 1: would physically cover the marshmallow, or you know, they very 444 00:24:01,396 --> 00:24:04,196 Speaker 1: cutely cover their own eyes so they couldn't see the marshmallow. 445 00:24:04,476 --> 00:24:08,476 Speaker 1: And that was their way of minimizing the need for willpower, 446 00:24:08,596 --> 00:24:10,476 Speaker 1: right because you can't see it, then it's less of 447 00:24:10,516 --> 00:24:14,076 Speaker 1: a temptation. And actually Walter then did random assignment experiments 448 00:24:14,076 --> 00:24:15,796 Speaker 1: because you know, you wanted to know is it really 449 00:24:15,836 --> 00:24:18,036 Speaker 1: cause all, like, you know, how can I really And 450 00:24:18,436 --> 00:24:21,196 Speaker 1: when you put a plate over the marshmallow, kids can wait, 451 00:24:21,276 --> 00:24:23,436 Speaker 1: you know, more than twice as long as when the 452 00:24:23,476 --> 00:24:26,356 Speaker 1: marshmallows are right there. And so once you're a little 453 00:24:26,396 --> 00:24:29,836 Speaker 1: more consciously aware of this, it just means that in 454 00:24:29,876 --> 00:24:35,956 Speaker 1: those momentary conflicts between good for me versus a little 455 00:24:35,996 --> 00:24:38,756 Speaker 1: easier for me, you know, you've got to switch the dynamic. 456 00:24:39,076 --> 00:24:41,876 Speaker 1: Don't say like I'll just use woolpower. It doesn't it 457 00:24:41,956 --> 00:24:45,876 Speaker 1: doesn't really work. Yeah, now I'm just chuckling right now, 458 00:24:45,916 --> 00:24:49,756 Speaker 1: remembering like eleven year old Maya who would take her 459 00:24:49,796 --> 00:24:51,876 Speaker 1: Calvin and Hobbs books and put them on her music 460 00:24:51,916 --> 00:24:56,356 Speaker 1: stand over her sheet music. That's the opposite of what 461 00:24:56,356 --> 00:24:59,116 Speaker 1: we're asking here, right, Well, depending on what your goal is, yeah, 462 00:24:59,116 --> 00:25:01,236 Speaker 1: that might be. I think my goal is to practice, 463 00:25:01,836 --> 00:25:04,716 Speaker 1: but actually ended up getting through Bill Waterson's you know, 464 00:25:04,836 --> 00:25:09,076 Speaker 1: for book collection. Okay, So one of the people I 465 00:25:09,156 --> 00:25:13,036 Speaker 1: interviewed as Annie Duke, and you know, she talks about 466 00:25:13,036 --> 00:25:16,716 Speaker 1: the importance of learning how to quit more. And obviously 467 00:25:16,756 --> 00:25:19,756 Speaker 1: these two concepts are compatible. There are context in which 468 00:25:19,756 --> 00:25:22,676 Speaker 1: it makes sense to quit versus grit and vice versa. 469 00:25:22,836 --> 00:25:27,076 Speaker 1: In your experience, what are examples of situations where you 470 00:25:27,156 --> 00:25:30,196 Speaker 1: think people have shown grit but they probably shouldn't have, Like, 471 00:25:30,236 --> 00:25:33,436 Speaker 1: are there any signals people can look out for that 472 00:25:33,516 --> 00:25:35,476 Speaker 1: can tee up? Oh yeah, maybe actually this is a 473 00:25:35,516 --> 00:25:37,916 Speaker 1: moment where I should step back or I should stop trying. 474 00:25:38,516 --> 00:25:41,836 Speaker 1: I completely agree with both you and Annie that it's 475 00:25:41,916 --> 00:25:44,796 Speaker 1: possible to hang on too long. Like you can throw 476 00:25:44,876 --> 00:25:47,956 Speaker 1: good money after bad. I mean, you could you buy 477 00:25:47,996 --> 00:25:50,356 Speaker 1: a bicycle and think it's a bargain and then you're not, 478 00:25:50,436 --> 00:25:53,116 Speaker 1: Like you end up replacing the wheels and the fender 479 00:25:53,156 --> 00:25:55,036 Speaker 1: and like pretty soon you have the cost of more 480 00:25:55,036 --> 00:25:57,396 Speaker 1: than a bicycle, but you keep you know, repairing it. 481 00:25:57,436 --> 00:26:00,236 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just at some point in that process, 482 00:26:00,276 --> 00:26:01,996 Speaker 1: if you had walked away and said, you know what, 483 00:26:02,396 --> 00:26:05,116 Speaker 1: I wasted seventy dollars, But if I keep with this, 484 00:26:05,156 --> 00:26:07,316 Speaker 1: I'm going to waste one hundred and seventy dollars. Right, Like, 485 00:26:07,596 --> 00:26:10,396 Speaker 1: it's very hard for us to some times detach ourselves. 486 00:26:10,396 --> 00:26:12,476 Speaker 1: So so when to quit and when to grit is 487 00:26:12,516 --> 00:26:16,276 Speaker 1: an excellent question. And I think for me, the the 488 00:26:16,636 --> 00:26:20,436 Speaker 1: when to quit and when to grit question is answered 489 00:26:20,636 --> 00:26:24,476 Speaker 1: with why, you know, like why did you buy a bicycle? Right? 490 00:26:24,796 --> 00:26:29,436 Speaker 1: And if the answer to that question is you know, answerable, 491 00:26:29,556 --> 00:26:31,716 Speaker 1: like okay, well, the reason why I bought a bicycle 492 00:26:31,796 --> 00:26:33,556 Speaker 1: is because like I really want to get to work faster, 493 00:26:33,796 --> 00:26:35,236 Speaker 1: or like I want to find a way to work out, 494 00:26:35,316 --> 00:26:37,836 Speaker 1: or but you know, it's the end not the means. 495 00:26:38,236 --> 00:26:40,756 Speaker 1: When you've reflected on the why, you're like, okay, what 496 00:26:40,836 --> 00:26:42,796 Speaker 1: am I doing here? Like why am I doing this? 497 00:26:43,156 --> 00:26:46,116 Speaker 1: And you think, okay, you know what, there's an easier 498 00:26:46,156 --> 00:26:48,116 Speaker 1: way to get there. You know, there's a better way 499 00:26:48,116 --> 00:26:51,316 Speaker 1: to get there. That's when you should quit and then 500 00:26:51,356 --> 00:26:54,316 Speaker 1: take that other route. However, if you think about what 501 00:26:54,356 --> 00:26:56,396 Speaker 1: you're doing and you're like, this is why I'm doing 502 00:26:56,436 --> 00:26:59,036 Speaker 1: it and there is no other way, then you know 503 00:26:59,076 --> 00:27:01,556 Speaker 1: it is rational to keep going. So I think actually 504 00:27:01,556 --> 00:27:04,676 Speaker 1: asking yourself why, you know, in those moments of frustration, 505 00:27:05,036 --> 00:27:07,476 Speaker 1: it's not just you know, is it the noble thing 506 00:27:07,556 --> 00:27:10,276 Speaker 1: to keep going or not? It's it's not that simple. 507 00:27:10,356 --> 00:27:12,836 Speaker 1: You have to ask, you know, in a way that's reflective, 508 00:27:12,916 --> 00:27:14,676 Speaker 1: like why am I doing this in the first place? 509 00:27:15,476 --> 00:27:18,316 Speaker 1: And I think it can give you that flexibility that 510 00:27:18,356 --> 00:27:22,516 Speaker 1: you need to know question your assumptions. Yeah, And I 511 00:27:22,516 --> 00:27:25,116 Speaker 1: think we're seeing people act on that, like in sports, 512 00:27:25,156 --> 00:27:29,556 Speaker 1: for example, Simone Biles, Naomi Osaka, others who are saying, oh, 513 00:27:29,596 --> 00:27:32,156 Speaker 1: actually I am pushing myself beyond the limits and maybe 514 00:27:32,156 --> 00:27:34,876 Speaker 1: there why is ultimately I do the sport so that 515 00:27:34,916 --> 00:27:37,876 Speaker 1: I can be happy, and at some point the infringement 516 00:27:37,916 --> 00:27:40,916 Speaker 1: on my well being is so severe the cost benefit 517 00:27:40,996 --> 00:27:43,516 Speaker 1: doesn't pay off anymore. Right, There's at least some awareness 518 00:27:43,556 --> 00:27:48,396 Speaker 1: around that. Yeah. Angela's recently developed an exciting new college 519 00:27:48,396 --> 00:27:51,996 Speaker 1: course at the University of Pennsylvania. It's called grit Lab. 520 00:27:52,596 --> 00:27:55,596 Speaker 1: It's a semester long course dedicated to getting students to 521 00:27:55,676 --> 00:27:58,876 Speaker 1: walk the walk on all the recommendations we talked about 522 00:27:58,916 --> 00:28:01,476 Speaker 1: in this episode. So if you're a student in my class, 523 00:28:01,516 --> 00:28:04,396 Speaker 1: you read about grit, but you also every week have 524 00:28:04,436 --> 00:28:07,156 Speaker 1: an exercise. So I know you want everyone to go 525 00:28:07,196 --> 00:28:09,116 Speaker 1: out and try deliberate practice. Well, that is a home 526 00:28:09,156 --> 00:28:11,356 Speaker 1: work assignment for my classes. Like this week. You know, 527 00:28:11,676 --> 00:28:13,436 Speaker 1: you can all practice what you want, but we're all 528 00:28:13,476 --> 00:28:15,276 Speaker 1: going to do deliver practice and then reflect on it. 529 00:28:15,516 --> 00:28:17,316 Speaker 1: Goal setting Okay, everybody's going to set a goal and 530 00:28:17,316 --> 00:28:18,876 Speaker 1: make a plan this week, and then we're gonna reflect 531 00:28:18,916 --> 00:28:20,956 Speaker 1: on that. You know, Curiosity Okay, everybody's going to go 532 00:28:20,956 --> 00:28:22,996 Speaker 1: out have a curiosity conversation with some of they don't 533 00:28:23,036 --> 00:28:25,236 Speaker 1: know about something that they're interested in, and then we're 534 00:28:25,276 --> 00:28:27,436 Speaker 1: going to reflect on it. So what have I learned 535 00:28:27,436 --> 00:28:31,356 Speaker 1: from teaching students grit Lab. Well, I think people make 536 00:28:31,436 --> 00:28:34,156 Speaker 1: changes when they do it with other people. Say you're 537 00:28:34,156 --> 00:28:36,556 Speaker 1: listening to this conversation and you've made a little resolution 538 00:28:36,556 --> 00:28:38,236 Speaker 1: and you know you shouldn't use willpower. You're going to 539 00:28:38,316 --> 00:28:40,956 Speaker 1: change your situations. But if you do that with your 540 00:28:40,956 --> 00:28:42,996 Speaker 1: spouse or your girlfriend or boyfriend, if you do that 541 00:28:43,436 --> 00:28:45,836 Speaker 1: with a best friend, if you do that with a coworker. 542 00:28:46,236 --> 00:28:48,556 Speaker 1: Now you have the two of you, and it's social 543 00:28:48,676 --> 00:28:51,596 Speaker 1: and it's totally different than like you on your own, 544 00:28:51,876 --> 00:28:55,476 Speaker 1: failing or succeeding completely in isolation. And so grit lab 545 00:28:55,556 --> 00:28:57,956 Speaker 1: is all built around teams, etc. But it's kind of 546 00:28:57,956 --> 00:29:01,316 Speaker 1: this social thing that we're doing together for fourteen weeks 547 00:29:01,316 --> 00:29:03,276 Speaker 1: and not just like, oh, go off on your own, 548 00:29:03,676 --> 00:29:07,116 Speaker 1: read this book and do things entirely by yourself. So 549 00:29:07,156 --> 00:29:09,396 Speaker 1: that's just one of the insights. But I guess personally, 550 00:29:09,436 --> 00:29:11,876 Speaker 1: I'll just say, like, you know, my why maya, Like 551 00:29:11,996 --> 00:29:14,436 Speaker 1: you know what wakes me up early and keeps me 552 00:29:14,516 --> 00:29:17,756 Speaker 1: going on bad days is for me. You know, everything 553 00:29:17,796 --> 00:29:20,556 Speaker 1: that you talk about, you know in this um, you 554 00:29:20,596 --> 00:29:23,196 Speaker 1: know format and everything that you've worked on, everything that 555 00:29:23,236 --> 00:29:26,316 Speaker 1: I work on. It really has the potential to harness 556 00:29:26,396 --> 00:29:30,796 Speaker 1: behavioral insights to make people's lives better. Oh I love that. Well. 557 00:29:30,796 --> 00:29:32,916 Speaker 1: I will tell you your students love grit Lab and 558 00:29:32,956 --> 00:29:35,516 Speaker 1: actually reach out to some of them before our interview 559 00:29:36,076 --> 00:29:37,916 Speaker 1: to see how the class might have changed their life. 560 00:29:37,916 --> 00:29:41,636 Speaker 1: And I just wanted to share our one testimonial listener feedback, 561 00:29:41,676 --> 00:29:45,876 Speaker 1: which was really beautiful and moving. One of my biggest 562 00:29:45,876 --> 00:29:48,036 Speaker 1: struggles at Penn has been learning how to admit to 563 00:29:48,076 --> 00:29:50,996 Speaker 1: myself when I need help and to proactively ask for 564 00:29:51,036 --> 00:29:54,036 Speaker 1: help from others, whether it be a friend or a classmate. 565 00:29:54,436 --> 00:29:57,236 Speaker 1: Grit Lab taught me that seeking out feedback, wisdom, and 566 00:29:57,316 --> 00:30:00,716 Speaker 1: advice from others is not a weakness but an incredible 567 00:30:00,716 --> 00:30:03,556 Speaker 1: power that we all have that allows us to foster 568 00:30:03,636 --> 00:30:06,836 Speaker 1: our own growth by being open and honest about our limits. 569 00:30:07,796 --> 00:30:11,156 Speaker 1: I love that, and I'm that student remembers we had 570 00:30:11,516 --> 00:30:14,476 Speaker 1: a whole week on feedback, you know, the science of feedback. 571 00:30:14,836 --> 00:30:18,076 Speaker 1: We had to practice giving and getting feedback, and every class, 572 00:30:18,076 --> 00:30:20,956 Speaker 1: the student remembers I got feedback, and I was you know, 573 00:30:21,036 --> 00:30:23,076 Speaker 1: rated by the students on a scale from zero to ten. 574 00:30:23,236 --> 00:30:25,396 Speaker 1: From zero like that was a complete waste of my time, 575 00:30:25,476 --> 00:30:28,356 Speaker 1: doctor Duckworth to ten, like you blew my mind, but 576 00:30:28,356 --> 00:30:30,916 Speaker 1: like that was amazing. And then I got, you know, 577 00:30:30,996 --> 00:30:33,876 Speaker 1: qualitiative comments. And I was very open with students about 578 00:30:33,876 --> 00:30:36,476 Speaker 1: how defensive I felt when I got low numbers and 579 00:30:36,796 --> 00:30:38,716 Speaker 1: when they told me things that I could do better 580 00:30:38,756 --> 00:30:41,356 Speaker 1: and differently, and then I tried to model over them, 581 00:30:41,356 --> 00:30:45,476 Speaker 1: like hey, look I'm defensive. That crushed me. And I 582 00:30:45,596 --> 00:30:47,836 Speaker 1: learned three things and this is why like today, we're 583 00:30:47,836 --> 00:30:49,756 Speaker 1: going to do things differently, and I don't want to 584 00:30:49,756 --> 00:30:52,036 Speaker 1: make it seem easy, but I do think that just 585 00:30:52,156 --> 00:30:55,836 Speaker 1: that student's testimonial and just the potential for you know, 586 00:30:55,916 --> 00:30:57,996 Speaker 1: the signs of feedback, the signs of practice, you know, 587 00:30:58,036 --> 00:31:01,316 Speaker 1: the signs of interest, the science of situation modification. You know, 588 00:31:01,356 --> 00:31:05,676 Speaker 1: there is this enormous, untapped potential to make our lives better. 589 00:31:26,956 --> 00:31:29,276 Speaker 1: Join me next week when I talked to Amanda Knox, 590 00:31:29,756 --> 00:31:32,836 Speaker 1: she was wrongfully accused of murder and spent four years 591 00:31:32,876 --> 00:31:36,516 Speaker 1: in an Italian prison before she was exonerated and allowed 592 00:31:36,556 --> 00:31:39,756 Speaker 1: to return back to the US. When I first came home, 593 00:31:40,756 --> 00:31:43,236 Speaker 1: I thought that I was going to get to have 594 00:31:43,556 --> 00:31:49,236 Speaker 1: the life that I had left behind back that once 595 00:31:49,396 --> 00:31:51,956 Speaker 1: this is all worked out and everyone agrees that I'm innocent, 596 00:31:52,156 --> 00:31:54,476 Speaker 1: then I get to go back to my life that 597 00:31:54,876 --> 00:31:58,916 Speaker 1: I lost that was on pause, and I realized that 598 00:31:58,916 --> 00:32:11,556 Speaker 1: that life didn't exist anymore. A Slight Change of Plans 599 00:32:11,676 --> 00:32:14,796 Speaker 1: is created, written and executive produced by me Maya Shunker. 600 00:32:15,436 --> 00:32:17,476 Speaker 1: The best part of creating this show is getting to 601 00:32:17,516 --> 00:32:22,116 Speaker 1: collaborate with my formidable Slight Change family. This includes Tyler Green, 602 00:32:22,236 --> 00:32:26,356 Speaker 1: our senior producer Jen Guera our senior editor, Ben Holliday, 603 00:32:26,396 --> 00:32:30,756 Speaker 1: our sound engineer, Emily Rosteck, our associate producer, and Neil Lavelle, 604 00:32:30,876 --> 00:32:34,876 Speaker 1: our executive producer. Louis Skara wrote our delightful theme song 605 00:32:34,996 --> 00:32:39,516 Speaker 1: and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change 606 00:32:39,516 --> 00:32:42,196 Speaker 1: of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big 607 00:32:42,196 --> 00:32:45,996 Speaker 1: thanks to everyone there, and of course a very special 608 00:32:45,996 --> 00:32:49,236 Speaker 1: thanks to Jimmy Lane. You can follow A Slight Change 609 00:32:49,236 --> 00:32:52,716 Speaker 1: of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker and please 610 00:32:52,756 --> 00:32:55,476 Speaker 1: remember to subscribe, share and rate the show to help 611 00:32:55,516 --> 00:33:00,156 Speaker 1: get the word out. See you next week.