Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Frida Egg Podcast. My name
Speaker 1: is Garrett Morrison, and today I'm talking about bee keeping
Speaker 1: and sustainable golf with Parker Anderson. But first, this episode
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Speaker 1: all right, Today we are tackling the widely debated issue
Speaker 1: of golf's relationship to the environment. My guest is Parker Anderson,
Speaker 1: who runs a company called Greener Golf. Basically, Greener Golf
Speaker 1: consults with courses about how to use their resources better
Speaker 1: and how to be more sustainable overall. And Parker's basic
Speaker 1: message to those courses and to us is that golf
Speaker 1: can really be a force for good in the environment.
Speaker 1: It doesn't have to take away, doesn't have to just
Speaker 1: kind of keep things status quo. It can actually offer benefits.
Speaker 1: And one of those benefits involves bees, which Parker and
Speaker 1: I will definitely talk about, So one more thing before
Speaker 1: we get into it. In addition to all the other
Speaker 1: stuff he's done, Parker was a founding member of the
Speaker 1: band iration Fablo, and he's close friends with the lead
Speaker 1: singer of that band, Micah Pouschelle, who sometimes goes by Posh.
Speaker 1: Micah is a big time golf tragic, well known in
Speaker 1: the golf community, and when Parker refers to Posh at
Speaker 1: the beginning of our interview, that's what he's talking about.
Speaker 1: All right, let's do it. I miss a green, for example,
Speaker 1: I'm already upset.
Speaker 2: When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 2: And when I find my ball in a.
Speaker 1: Bride egg Frida egg, the dreaded Frida egg Frida egg
Speaker 1: Frida egg, Brian egg Frida egg bride egg Lie, I'm
Speaker 1: about ready to run off the golf course. You grew
Speaker 1: up in Hawaii, Yeah, we did. You just let Hawaii
Speaker 1: for a while.
Speaker 2: Live in Hawaii for a while. So I was there
Speaker 2: from like in middle school through high school, and that's
Speaker 2: kind of how I know, poosh. We we kind of
Speaker 2: grew up together some pretty formative years there with with
Speaker 2: Micah and a lot of the guys from the band Iration.
Speaker 2: We all ended up in Santa Barbara together and kind
Speaker 2: of started that band up, which was a lot of fun.
Speaker 2: But Hawaii's a really special spot for me. I was
Speaker 2: the tournament director for the Hawaii State Junior Golf Association
Speaker 2: for a couple of years, which was great experience, and
Speaker 2: got to play a lot of golf in Hawaii, which
Speaker 2: is always always a good treat. We're actually heading back
Speaker 2: to Hawaii on January first for about six weeks, so
Speaker 2: I'm really excited about that.
Speaker 1: Good time of your to do it.
Speaker 2: I know, man, it's great, all right, Well, why.
Speaker 1: Don't we dig into the topic. There's many things that
Speaker 1: I could talk about with you, Like, there's any number
Speaker 1: of things. You've got a fascinating resume, and you and
Speaker 1: I have some places in common even that we could
Speaker 1: probably chat about. Yeah, maybe people wouldn't be as interested
Speaker 1: in that as the work that you're doing, and that
Speaker 1: work centers on sustainability and golf. Now, I was going
Speaker 1: to open with some questions about bees and bee keeping
Speaker 1: and that idea on golf courses, and we'll get to that,
Speaker 1: for sure, we'll tell that story. But there was an
Speaker 1: article that came out this week on cnn dot com
Speaker 1: that discussed golf and the environment and ended up getting
Speaker 1: passed around a lot on the internet. You know. It's
Speaker 1: an interesting article in the sense that the SoundBite from it,
Speaker 1: the quote that's going to get reprinted and redistributed, is
Speaker 1: the line golf is a dirty sport that's wrecking the planet,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't have to be. So there's that line
Speaker 1: in the article. But then the article kind of goes
Speaker 1: on to discuss golf in the environment, the challenges that
Speaker 1: it's facing right now, and some of the things that
Speaker 1: golf architects and golf course superintendents are doing to try
Speaker 1: to improve things, and so that the article doesn't really
Speaker 1: follow up on that opening proclamation. But in any case,
Speaker 1: so I guess what I wanted to ask you about
Speaker 1: was if somebody didn't know anything about golf in the
Speaker 1: environment and just read that article, what would you want
Speaker 1: that person to know?
Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's a common theme these these articles
Speaker 2: that I've I've received a lot of them, and it's
Speaker 2: come into many forms. And and when I started reading
Speaker 2: it with with like that tagline that you mentioned of
Speaker 2: golf as a dirty sport that's wrecking the planet, and
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, here we go again. You know,
Speaker 2: this is just another one of these bashing golf kind
Speaker 2: of articles. And like you said, it does follow up
Speaker 2: with some examples, some case studies of carbon sequestration, of
Speaker 2: a lot of a lot of positives that that are
Speaker 2: happening in the golf and some some case studies, and
Speaker 2: but a lot of it is from Europe. You know,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of examples in Europe and Iceland, some
Speaker 2: really cool stuff happening in Iceland, which is fascinating. Surprisingly,
Speaker 2: you know, surprisingly, golf in Iceland. But there's some great,
Speaker 2: great examples there really really progressive approach to how golf
Speaker 2: impacts the environment. And I think that's something that I
Speaker 2: think the golf industry in general is very, very bad
Speaker 2: at of describing the value of golf, especially to non golfers.
Speaker 2: And what what the challenge that I face a lot
Speaker 2: is is there's a there's a big stigma already, you know,
Speaker 2: set in our society that golf courses are these these
Speaker 2: wasteful elitists kind of land like high fence, high walls,
Speaker 2: land uses that are inaccessible, that have a history of
Speaker 2: you know, closing their gates to to many people. And
Speaker 2: you know, I think some of it is justified. And
Speaker 2: but I think to to make generalizations that golf is
Speaker 2: a dirty sport, you know, and it's and it's wrecking
Speaker 2: the planet is is kind of an oversimplification. There's there's
Speaker 2: a there's fifteen thousand golf courses about approximately in the US,
Speaker 2: and some are doing really incredible things, and some are
Speaker 2: having a challenge with with what we're facing with with
Speaker 2: this climate catastrophe and and how do you how do
Speaker 2: we survive that? So there's some really we're kind of
Speaker 2: at a really critical time in the history of our
Speaker 2: our species, but also our industry, and when when there's
Speaker 2: this battle of golfers, you know, kind of seeing this
Speaker 2: dynamic of golf against the environment, there's kind of this
Speaker 2: trade off often where you know, this has kind of
Speaker 2: been the norm in our industry, is like if if
Speaker 2: we have to be more environmental, better environmental stewards, then
Speaker 2: we have to give up something else. And I don't
Speaker 2: see it that way. I think that's kind of a
Speaker 2: thing of the past, where sustainability and focusing on environmental
Speaker 2: initiatives and and kind of going beyond sustainability really of
Speaker 2: using golf courses as these regenerative spaces and and really
Speaker 2: provide a lot of value to community. You know, that's
Speaker 2: a possibility, and the courses that are kind of a
Speaker 2: demonstrating that right now. But I think the article really
Speaker 2: touches on a point that there's a stigma around golf,
Speaker 2: especially to the non golfer. You know, most most people
Speaker 2: experience golf from a I'm just driving by this fenced
Speaker 2: off area and I see the irrigation going off, and
Speaker 2: I don't see a single soul out there, So what
Speaker 2: a waste of land there's a California Assembly bill that's
Speaker 2: been proposed recently AB six seventy two, and it's basically
Speaker 2: a proposal to turn a lot of public golf courses
Speaker 2: into affordable housing. And you know, I'm all for affordable housing.
Speaker 2: I think you know, we were just talking about the
Speaker 2: challenge of living in California and I need some affordable housing.
Speaker 2: But there's I think there's there's better ways to do it.
Speaker 2: I mean, golf courses often in these urban areas, are
Speaker 2: these last remaining green spaces that provide a significant value
Speaker 2: to those communities that, like I said, golf were not
Speaker 2: very good at telling that story, especially to non golfers.
Speaker 2: And that's a lot of what my work involves is
Speaker 2: saying this land use provides this list of ecosystem services
Speaker 2: to this community. And so you know, what I'm saying
Speaker 2: is we need to be able to describe the value
Speaker 2: of a golf course other than just monetary value. And
Speaker 2: that's where the difficult work comes into play.
Speaker 1: And you know, part of this is a pr project
Speaker 1: in a sense that in that CNN article, there was
Speaker 1: an easy opportunity for the writer or the writers to
Speaker 1: say golf is a dirty sport. And it's wrecking the planet.
Speaker 1: And a lot of readers will simply sort of accept
Speaker 1: that because that is an established narrative that people are
Speaker 1: familiar with, as sort of oversimplified or even erroneous as
Speaker 1: it might be. And so part of the project is
Speaker 1: to combat that, to put a different story out there
Speaker 1: and give people access to that so they have the
Speaker 1: ability to say, actually, I don't know if I really
Speaker 1: believe that line of the article. So that's maybe one thing.
Speaker 1: But another thing is working with golf courses to improve
Speaker 1: the environmental services that they provide. Your company, Greener Golf
Speaker 1: does a lot of this kind of work, and specifically,
Speaker 1: one that's really fun to talk about is the bee
Speaker 1: keeping work that you do. And so maybe we could
Speaker 1: just start by talking about bees in general, because I
Speaker 1: think a lot of people sort of avoid bees. Their
Speaker 1: main relationship with bees is please don't sting me, or
Speaker 1: please get out of my food or whatever. But tell
Speaker 1: me about your interest in bees and how that came about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, my interest in bees goes way back, and
Speaker 2: so does my experience in golf, and so it's a
Speaker 2: it's been a great I'm very grateful for the ability
Speaker 2: to combine those two passions together. You know, the more
Speaker 2: I learn about bees and I can you need to
Speaker 2: learn about bees even though I've been a beekeeper for
Speaker 2: about fifteen years, is there really incredible creatures, really selfless.
Speaker 2: They kind of operate on this for the greater good
Speaker 2: model and they just work tirelessly for the greater good
Speaker 2: of their colony. And I think that's an incredible lesson
Speaker 2: to be learned right off the bat. And then pollinators,
Speaker 2: especially honey bees, really are the backbone of our agricultural systems.
Speaker 2: They provide pollination services for over a third of the
Speaker 2: food that we eat, So basically every one out of
Speaker 2: three bites that you're consuming is thanks to a honey
Speaker 2: bee and its pollination, and so they're very important for
Speaker 2: our agriculture. The problem is that we're experiencing significant die
Speaker 2: offs of colonies every year. So basically a beekeeper will
Speaker 2: experience thirty to fifty percent of their colonies will die
Speaker 2: every year. So a lot of the work of a
Speaker 2: bee keeper is really recovering your losses and then trying
Speaker 2: to re strengthen your colonies. And so, like I said earlier,
Speaker 2: at a very critical time in the history of our
Speaker 2: species of the planet, and bees play a really critical
Speaker 2: part in that. And how it relates to golf is
Speaker 2: that bees are on golf courses already. They find water,
Speaker 2: they're looking for flowers. There's trees that have flowers, there's
Speaker 2: out of play areas that have flowers. So they're foraging
Speaker 2: on golf courses already. They're looking for places to live.
Speaker 2: But the human honeybeat interaction is not always positive on
Speaker 2: a golf course, as you know. And so for example,
Speaker 2: at goat Hill Park in Oceanside, great little facility that
Speaker 2: I love to spend time at, we have a great
Speaker 2: beekeeping program down there. And how it started was I
Speaker 2: was playing in the Herdsman, which is a two man
Speaker 2: best ball two day event, which is a blast. But
Speaker 2: we're playing and there's there's I'm just looking around. There's
Speaker 2: bees and irrigation boxes. There's a swarm that's hanging from
Speaker 2: a tree like right next to the cart path, and
Speaker 2: there's just bees everywhere, which is you know, it's it's
Speaker 2: great showing that bees are healthy in that area, but
Speaker 2: it but it I was like this. I talked to
Speaker 2: John Ashworth and I said, John, this is a a liability.
Speaker 2: There's you know, people are getting stung and let's do
Speaker 2: something about this, and so he was really supportive. He
Speaker 2: loves the bees, and so we started. Basically, my work
Speaker 2: was to capture all of these colonies, relocate them to
Speaker 2: a safe spot, and and create this ap area that's
Speaker 2: dedicated to the bees. So we can kind of keep
Speaker 2: the bees in their separate corner and keep the golfers
Speaker 2: in their separate corners, and everyone's happy and and that's
Speaker 2: been a really positive story for the bees. Additionally, you know,
Speaker 2: bees require forage, and you've got this giant irrigated landscape
Speaker 2: a golf course. Uh. I think the average size of
Speaker 2: a golf course is about one hundred and fifty acres,
Speaker 2: and on average, sixty percent of that acreage is managed
Speaker 2: for turf for play, So you've got forty percent of
Speaker 2: that one hundred and fifty acres is kind of underutilized space.
Speaker 2: So a lot of a lot of my work at
Speaker 2: Greener Golf is really finding alternative uses value added you know,
Speaker 2: programming for those spaces, and a lot of it is
Speaker 2: creating pollender habitat areas or depending on the region, you know,
Speaker 2: stormwater catchment basins, or just adding a lot of a
Speaker 2: lot of features into these underutilized spaces, and so at
Speaker 2: Go Hill we have a huge kind of pollender habitat
Speaker 2: area where we're kind of taking more and more areas
Speaker 2: and dedicating them to growing flowers to support the bees
Speaker 2: because they really need a constant forage source. Kind of
Speaker 2: tied all in is is sustainability, and quantifying sustainability is
Speaker 2: really challenging. There's so many factors. I think at the
Speaker 2: University of Minnesota, I tried to capture like every measurable
Speaker 2: factor and it was close to a thousand metrics that
Speaker 2: you would have to quantify in order to really assess
Speaker 2: what your sustainability level is. And that's that's a lot
Speaker 2: of time. You know, golf course superintendents don't have extra time,
Speaker 2: and so so trying to accomplish that was a big challenge.
Speaker 2: So what's great about bees, in my opinion, is that
Speaker 2: bees are what's called an indicator species, meaning if they're
Speaker 2: healthy and present in a location, it indicates that that
Speaker 2: area or that ecosystem is healthy. So if you have
Speaker 2: healthy bees, that basically translates to a healthy ecosystem. So
Speaker 2: it's basically a shorthand way of saying, we have healthy
Speaker 2: bees here. So therefore, this golf course is sustainable. And
Speaker 2: it's it's a very easy kind of shorthand way to
Speaker 2: not have to go through measuring a thousand different factors.
Speaker 2: But it's it's kind of it's a start, i'd say,
Speaker 2: a start to demonstrating that a golf course is sustainable
Speaker 2: by having bees. I call them the trojan horse of
Speaker 2: sustainability because there's just so many kind of additional or
Speaker 2: indirect benefits that having bees really results in.
Speaker 1: And when you say a trojan horse for sustainability in golf,
Speaker 1: what comes to mind for me is just introducing the
Speaker 1: concept to golf courses through a bee keeping program that
Speaker 1: you can use your out of play areas in different ways, right,
Speaker 1: because there's a number of things that you could do
Speaker 1: with out of play areas, not just bee keeping. So
Speaker 1: what are what are some of those additional possibilities that
Speaker 1: you've thought about or that you've seen.
Speaker 2: I mean, bees are one component of it. Pollinators, We
Speaker 2: really rely on pollinators. But what I like to consider
Speaker 2: is what we call stacking functions. So how can you
Speaker 2: get the most the most value out of a space.
Speaker 2: So stacking functions would be something like, all right, we've
Speaker 2: identified this area, we're gonna create a stormwater catchment basin
Speaker 2: or retention basin where when it rains, it'll fill with water.
Speaker 2: So we're going to capture water on site. But also
Speaker 2: those plants there, we're gonna grow some plants that are
Speaker 2: also beneficial to pollinators. Maybe there's some some plants there
Speaker 2: that are harvestables as a form of agriculture, so we
Speaker 2: have some additional value there of creating some food for humans.
Speaker 2: And those spaces then have a lot more value than
Speaker 2: just kind of keeping it out of sight, out of
Speaker 2: mind and just letting it, letting it do its thing.
Speaker 2: There's a little a little bit more i'd say grunt
Speaker 2: work on the front end to to start those programs
Speaker 2: and initiatives, but once they get rolling, and really the
Speaker 2: design is key of how do you design this space
Speaker 2: so that it kind of perpetuates itself, that you that
Speaker 2: you don't have to spend a lot of time on it,
Speaker 2: but it also provides all these values. So those those
Speaker 2: types of considerations are what kind of goes through that process.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I've noticed that a lot of golf
Speaker 1: courses put maintenance effort into their out of play areas
Speaker 1: and so just not really having to do that as
Speaker 1: much anymore would potentially free some things up. But you know,
Speaker 1: this is you're describing the bee keeping program at at
Speaker 1: Goatthill Park. Goatthill Park is, as you alluded to, is
Speaker 1: a unique place with a wonderful culture headed up by
Speaker 1: John Ashworth, who currently runs the Linksoul brand, but is
Speaker 1: also familiar to golfers through the Ashworth brand, which came
Speaker 1: before that, and they you know, there was a community
Speaker 1: effort to save that golf course and ever since then
Speaker 1: it's been this place of kind of experimentation. And so
Speaker 1: you could argue that Goatthill Park is uniquely well situated
Speaker 1: to accept an idea like a beekeeping program. Like if
Speaker 1: I were to guess any American golf course that would
Speaker 1: be most receptive to an idea like this, I would
Speaker 1: probably say Goatthill Park, right, that would be my guess,
Speaker 1: which is a wonderful thing for Goathill Park really, But
Speaker 1: at other kinds of golf courses you're going to run
Speaker 1: into a little more trouble in getting them to adopt
Speaker 1: things like this, And so how do you negotiate that diplomacy?
Speaker 2: Good question. So there's obviously a variety in the character
Speaker 2: of clubs. Goat Hill, as we recognize, is a unique case,
Speaker 2: but I've worked with the University of Michigan golf courses
Speaker 2: both have strong beekeeping programs. The Valley Club of Montecito
Speaker 2: has a really strong beekeeping program, and the primary cause
Speaker 2: of that, or the start of that was basically to
Speaker 2: mitigate the relationship and kind of coordinate the relationship between
Speaker 2: humans and honey bees, golfers and honeybees. Because there's a
Speaker 2: lot of these golf courses, are these like bee banks
Speaker 2: where there's bees there, there's a lot of bees on
Speaker 2: these properties. How can you safely navigate and manage that
Speaker 2: relationship where you don't want to swarm or a colony
Speaker 2: to move in right next to tea box? So how
Speaker 2: do you safely capture or kind of relocate these these
Speaker 2: colonies to a space that you can really be an
Speaker 2: environmental steward, a steward of these colonies and really support
Speaker 2: the local honeybee population, but also provide safety for for
Speaker 2: your membership. The superintendent at the Valley Club, Kevin O'Connor,
Speaker 2: is really supportive of the of the program. He loves
Speaker 2: the bees and always asking questions about him, and uh,
Speaker 2: but I think the membership, you know, the membership really
Speaker 2: is supportive of it as well. And and I think
Speaker 2: a lot of the members recognize that the honey bees
Speaker 2: are a valuable part of our ecosystem and we need
Speaker 2: to support them. Another benefit, though, is which is which
Speaker 2: is a challenge for me sometimes is keeping up with
Speaker 2: the demand for for honey. I mean everyone is always
Speaker 2: asking when is the when is the honey harvest? And uh,
Speaker 2: it's you know, I'm a beekeeper primarily for the benefit
Speaker 2: of the bees. I'm trying to strengthen and support honeybee
Speaker 2: populations and other pollinators, and so I'm not trying to
Speaker 2: push them too hard to capture a lot of honey.
Speaker 2: But occasionally they'll have a surplus and I'll be able
Speaker 2: to get some and hopefully that satisfies the demand a
Speaker 2: little bit.
Speaker 1: But do you have jars that you hand out and stuff?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, as part of my contracts with these
Speaker 2: clients is any honey surplus that is gathered is belongs
Speaker 2: to the club. And so there is a harvest at
Speaker 2: Goat Hill And I just gave you know, thirty jars
Speaker 2: to John and he gave them out to his staff
Speaker 2: to each member of his staff got a little three
Speaker 2: ounce jar with a goat Hill honey on it and
Speaker 2: had a Keyr code on the top that links to
Speaker 2: my website that has a lot of information of why
Speaker 2: bees are important. And he gave that out as a
Speaker 2: gift to sell it right the seventh anniversary of Goat Hill.
Speaker 2: And I think that little gifts really connected a lot
Speaker 2: of the employees to the golf course and they recognize
Speaker 2: the value of the bee keeping program and and really
Speaker 2: they recognize that that Goat Hill is a benefit to
Speaker 2: the to the ecosystem. We're not swimming in honey. It's
Speaker 2: not like a big honey production operation or anything. We're
Speaker 2: just I'm just trying to keep the bees healthy and
Speaker 2: keep golfers healthy as well.
Speaker 1: It's a it's a side benefit.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Probably pretty delicious too. I mean it's amazing, Like truly
Speaker 1: organic honey is is another another animal so to speak,
Speaker 1: from from the stuff you get at the grocery store.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the local, locally sourced honey. See, it's seasonal, so
Speaker 2: it'll taste different during different times of the year. And
Speaker 2: it's really thought to be really good for for allergies
Speaker 2: and because it has the local pollen in it. That's
Speaker 2: that's processed by the bees a little bit. So yeah,
Speaker 2: it's a hot commodity.
Speaker 1: That's cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So let's talk a little more generally about sustainability and
Speaker 1: how you define it. You have a working definition of
Speaker 1: sustainability in golf. Could you tell me about that, just
Speaker 1: so we can kind of root ourselves and what we're
Speaker 1: talking about when we say sustainability, because it's such a
Speaker 1: buzzword now, but it does actually mean.
Speaker 2: Something that's a challenge in and of itself, is defining sustainability.
Speaker 2: So the United Nations has a definition. It's meeting the
Speaker 2: meeting the needs of the present without compromising the ability
Speaker 2: of future generations to meet their own needs. And that's
Speaker 2: I think that's reasonable. I prefer a few alternatives. One
Speaker 2: is basically the kind of the outdoor motto of leave
Speaker 2: it better than you found it, so basically as it
Speaker 2: applies to golfers, fixed two ball marks. When you make one,
Speaker 2: you know the golf course is better off because of it.
Speaker 2: But really the definition and the practice that I really
Speaker 2: identify with is basically the First Nations approach of reciprocity.
Speaker 2: So basically, whatever you give, you know, we're given air, water,
Speaker 2: nourishment from the earth, and we're connected to the earth,
Speaker 2: and I think that's something that we're constantly, unfortunately getting
Speaker 2: farther and farther away from, is our connection to the Earth.
Speaker 2: And I think golf is a great way to re
Speaker 2: establish some of those connections with our kinship with with
Speaker 2: the environment. So so the idea of reciprocity of you know,
Speaker 2: we're we're given a great gift to be out in
Speaker 2: the in these outdoors, and how how can we support
Speaker 2: these ecosystems. We're not we're not taking from these ecosystems,
Speaker 2: so we're not separate from them. We're reuniting with the
Speaker 2: the ecosystem through golf and through the management of this course,
Speaker 2: and that really provides a lot of value, not just
Speaker 2: to the individual. Provides a lot of value to the
Speaker 2: individual golfer, you know, being outdoors and engaging with nature,
Speaker 2: the mental health aspects of it, but the non golfer,
Speaker 2: the person that is just close to that space really
Speaker 2: provide gets a lot of value from that golf course
Speaker 2: as well. And so that's something I really consider, Like
Speaker 2: you mentioned that defining sustainability is a challenge in and
Speaker 2: of itself, and we have a hard time defining it,
Speaker 2: and then we have a hard time quantifying it. But
Speaker 2: I think golf courses now are trying to be more sustainable,
Speaker 2: and I think that word more it needs to go.
Speaker 2: I mean, we're trying to be I see a future
Speaker 2: where we're beyond sustainable, where we're really regenerating these ecosystems
Speaker 2: and supporting ecosystems rather than kind of these net zero approaches.
Speaker 2: We're at a point where I think golf courses can
Speaker 2: really be a regenerative and beyond sustainable land use.
Speaker 1: Now, so what are some of the specific ways in
Speaker 1: which golf courses can do this? So we talked about
Speaker 1: pollinator habitats. What are some other ecosystem services or or
Speaker 1: ways in which golf courses can have a regenerative effect
Speaker 1: as opposed to taking away something or just keeping it
Speaker 1: kind of level.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so there's a whole whole list of sustainability
Speaker 2: metrics and initiatives and things that a golf course can
Speaker 2: engage in. I think that changes based on the region.
Speaker 2: For example, in California, water quantity is like the biggest issue,
Speaker 2: so using reclaimed water or using less water, having very
Speaker 2: firm and fast conditions which are fun. You know, it's
Speaker 2: a little browner maybe, but you know, I think that's
Speaker 2: something that golfers need to be need to accept and understand.
Speaker 2: So California water quantity is an issue, whereas in the Midwest,
Speaker 2: wanter water quality is a big issue. So, you know,
Speaker 2: with regards to sustainability, there's economic sustainability, there's the environmental
Speaker 2: sustainability kind of community engagement, but also golfer experience is
Speaker 2: a big part of sustainability. How do you enhance the
Speaker 2: golf for experience. I think education and integrating a lot
Speaker 2: of educational opportunities on the golf courses and really highlighting
Speaker 2: what a golf course is rather than just a recreational space.
Speaker 2: Two golfers is a value. But to kind of go
Speaker 2: back to your question, that kind of went on a
Speaker 2: tangent there, But basically, we're looking at air quality, carbon sequestration,
Speaker 2: we're looking at soil health. Carbon sequestration of soils is
Speaker 2: a tremendous opportunity there. Having healthy soils will retain a
Speaker 2: lot of carbon. If you have healthy soils, then you
Speaker 2: have healthy turf, and you have you can use less
Speaker 2: water and less chemicals and so there's a lot of
Speaker 2: They're all connected in ways, but I think looking at
Speaker 2: each golf course as a unique land use is necessary
Speaker 2: in order to figure out which which sustainability initiatives are
Speaker 2: our best there. And I think the part of sustainability
Speaker 2: that is often overlooked. And you know, we we're looking
Speaker 2: at environmental issues all the time, but there's there's things
Speaker 2: about like accessibility and environmental justice of these land uses.
Speaker 2: How do we get more people on them, how do
Speaker 2: we get a population of golfers that's representative of the
Speaker 2: population of these communities, And how do we use golf
Speaker 2: as a tool to promote positive social change and community
Speaker 2: engagement and and and a positive future. Those are big issues.
Speaker 2: There's you know, agriculture is a huge one. I spend
Speaker 2: some time as the campus farm manager at the University
Speaker 2: of Michigan, and I just love gardening and farming and
Speaker 2: growing my own food. And you know, bees are a
Speaker 2: big part of that. And you know, golf courses are
Speaker 2: these giant irrigated spaces, So why don't we like plant
Speaker 2: some some veggies around and and really utilize those spaces
Speaker 2: as as these kind of local food movements are are
Speaker 2: really starting to take hold. So there's a whole list
Speaker 2: of opportunities there. And I think, like I said, every
Speaker 2: golf course has a unique ecosystem and a unique community
Speaker 2: that it's a part of, and so it kind of
Speaker 2: requires a very deep dive into what is existing here.
Speaker 2: You know, we talk a lot about the future, but
Speaker 2: we really don't know where we stand. So I think
Speaker 2: really doing a lot of data collection and understanding where
Speaker 2: the golf course is, how much water it uses, and
Speaker 2: just really doing a baseline assessment of this is where
Speaker 2: we this is where we are now that that gives
Speaker 2: you a really strong position to make a change and
Speaker 2: then measure that change. And then that measurement of change,
Speaker 2: you know, that positive change really then results in a
Speaker 2: really powerful story of this value of this golf course.
Speaker 1: And this is what you call the Greener golf index,
Speaker 1: right that your way of measuring how how sustainable a
Speaker 1: golf course is or what it adds as opposed to
Speaker 1: what it takes away.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the Greener Golf Index, as you mentioned, is
Speaker 2: is an attempt at a holistic measurement of the sustainability
Speaker 2: of a golf course. I say attempt just because I
Speaker 2: mentioned there's over one thousand different measurable factors that go
Speaker 2: into the management of a course, and so it captures
Speaker 2: information from the economics, the environment, the community, and the
Speaker 2: golfer experience. And so what we're trying to do is
Speaker 2: maximize the impacts of those and so finding the key
Speaker 2: factors of each of those kind of silos kind of
Speaker 2: goes into this algorithm where the concept is that you
Speaker 2: have a score that you can then have a baseline
Speaker 2: assessment and say, okay, here's where we stand. Now we're
Speaker 2: going to do these interventions. Now we're going to measure again,
Speaker 2: and then we have that delta that we can then
Speaker 2: you know, use as a kind of a positive story
Speaker 2: of of of a of a change and the impact.
Speaker 2: Really measuring the impact is is is what this this
Speaker 2: tool is designed to do.
Speaker 1: Would this member would this measurement sometimes discover things that
Speaker 1: are not so great about what a golf course is doing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's that's a great question because there's a
Speaker 2: belief by by some in the industry that if you
Speaker 2: if you don't measure it, it doesn't exist. Right of
Speaker 2: you know, if you start measuring something, then reliable for
Speaker 2: for whatever that issue is. And so with regard to
Speaker 2: like products and different chemicals and so forth. He used.
Speaker 2: There's a thing called the environmental in UH. Let's see
Speaker 2: the Environmental Impact Quotient, which was developed by Cornell University. UH.
Speaker 2: You know, shout out to doctor Frank Rossi out there.
Speaker 2: He's doing some amazing work with golf. They developed this
Speaker 2: this uh database of any product or chemical you would
Speaker 2: use for for a golf course, and it gives you
Speaker 2: a score similar to the Greener Golf Index, and then
Speaker 2: you can find alternatives for that product that are that
Speaker 2: are better for the bees, better for the watershed, and
Speaker 2: so forth. But that's that is a big challenge is
Speaker 2: starting that journey of collecting data. So there's a lot
Speaker 2: of a lot of hesitancy I would say by some
Speaker 2: some golf course operators to to capture some of that
Speaker 2: data because they see that it could potentially result in a,
Speaker 2: you know, some sort of liability down the road.
Speaker 1: So let's get specific about what this could look like,
Speaker 1: what this kind of work could look like at a
Speaker 1: particular course. You did your I think your master's thesis
Speaker 1: work at the University of Michigan golf courses, one of
Speaker 1: which is the U of M Golf Course, which is
Speaker 1: an Alistair McKenzie design that actually Andy and I talked
Speaker 1: about in our last episode of the podcast. It's really
Speaker 1: cool golf course. And then there's Ragick Farms, which is
Speaker 1: a peat Die course from the mid sixties. I believe
Speaker 1: it's sort of early in his career, one of his
Speaker 1: early projects. You did. You did a ton of work
Speaker 1: at these golf courses as you were researching your thesis,
Speaker 1: and in fact did some projects at these courses, and
Speaker 1: so could you tell me about those and you know
Speaker 1: what kind of specific measures you took to increase the
Speaker 1: sustainability of them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, both great golf courses. I recognized in my golf career.
Speaker 2: I was a club pro for a while, I was
Speaker 2: a junior golf tournament director for a while and really
Speaker 2: just kind of tried a lot of wre many hats
Speaker 2: in the industry.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you're one of those rare people who is
Speaker 1: part of the PGA as well as the GCSAA, so
Speaker 1: the main Professionals Association as well as the main uh
Speaker 1: you know, Greenkeepers Association.
Speaker 2: Exactly. There's not there's not a lot of overlap, and
Speaker 2: I'm happy to be involved with both organizations. And I
Speaker 2: recognized in my career that you know, the golf has
Speaker 2: this great opportunity to be a better steward of the environment.
Speaker 2: So I chose to go to grad school to really
Speaker 2: focus on, you know, exploring that and really studying that
Speaker 2: and finding that opportunity. And I chose University of Michigan
Speaker 2: because it has a strong landscape architecture program, which Mike
Speaker 2: Deries went through he's a Michigan guy. And I also
Speaker 2: got a so I got a master's of Landscape architecture there,
Speaker 2: but also a Master of Science in sustainable systems. So
Speaker 2: it was one of those programs that you're able to
Speaker 2: have a very strong science background but also really focus
Speaker 2: on kind of the art and design and and and
Speaker 2: get deep into the landscape side of things. So that
Speaker 2: that was a really valuable experience. And I went specifically
Speaker 2: to focus on golf, and going to an environmental school
Speaker 2: focusing on golf was a was an eye opener. I mean,
Speaker 2: I got a lot of confrontation early, and luckily I
Speaker 2: was able to have a lot of great conversations with
Speaker 2: with some incredible people, really smart people that are focusing
Speaker 2: on different aspects of sustainability and environmental justice and so forth,
Speaker 2: and and have some difficult conversations, and I'm I'm grateful
Speaker 2: to have turned some perceptions onto the more positive side
Speaker 2: of golf. But to focus on the University of Michigan
Speaker 2: golf course, which is also known as the Blue Course
Speaker 2: and Alistair McKenzie Course, it's a it's an amazing, amazing
Speaker 2: track and and I remember a great memory is, uh,
Speaker 2: Saturday is a big Michigan football game, and then Sunday
Speaker 2: they had the uh, you know, tailgating everywhere on the
Speaker 2: golf course. And then Sunday was the they have a
Speaker 2: student club championship and so like it was right after
Speaker 2: sure the tailgating, and so you know, he hit a
Speaker 2: ball out of out of play and you're like, you know,
Speaker 2: there's beer cans or something like that. It's incredible. How
Speaker 2: how good of a job they do at going from
Speaker 2: tailgate to playability. I don't know how they do it,
Speaker 2: but it's it's pretty incredible. And the course is in
Speaker 2: really good shape but a really historically important and a
Speaker 2: really great design, and it's accessible to students, really fantastic
Speaker 2: piece of property. And it's right next to the Big House,
Speaker 2: which is which is a lot of fun. And then
Speaker 2: Raderick Farms is like you said, a Pete Die course,
Speaker 2: and it was Pete Dies, Pete and Alice Dies first
Speaker 2: eighteen hole design, but it wasn't built until after they've
Speaker 2: they've finished a few other courses, but it's part of
Speaker 2: this big property that was donated to the university by
Speaker 2: Frederick Mathey and he they started the botanical gardens there.
Speaker 2: There's a big forest there. Luckily for me, they have
Speaker 2: this caretaker program there where if you're a graduate student
Speaker 2: in back then it was called the School of Natural
Speaker 2: Resources and Environment now it's the School of Environment and Sustainability,
Speaker 2: getting getting that buzzword in there, you know, rebranded. But
Speaker 2: if you're a student at this school, there's opportunities for
Speaker 2: free housing in exchange for being a caretaker of this property.
Speaker 2: And so I worked ten hours a week on the
Speaker 2: golf course, either Maaian Green's or you know, doing whatever.
Speaker 2: And I lived on property in this old farmhouse and
Speaker 2: it was an incredible four years there. And part of
Speaker 2: my master's project was to design a little little part
Speaker 2: three course called the Gateway course, kind of the gateway
Speaker 2: to sustainability. It's also at the gateway of rad Wick Farms,
Speaker 2: and you know, we're still in discussions of potentially building that,
Speaker 2: which is a lot of a lot of fun, and
Speaker 2: that property is is just a really special place to
Speaker 2: me and it's a great resource for the university.
Speaker 1: The farmhouse that you were living in, was that meant
Speaker 1: for habitation.
Speaker 2: At one point? It was, yeah, I mean it was
Speaker 2: a little it was a little rundown, but you know,
Speaker 2: it had a fireplace at one point that they then
Speaker 2: decided it wasn't a good idea to let graduate students
Speaker 2: just have fires in an old building. So you know,
Speaker 2: that was that was a graduate.
Speaker 1: Students typically live there. Was that like a place that
Speaker 1: often you would find graduate students through time.
Speaker 2: Well, so originally it was the the house of the
Speaker 2: general manager, and then it was kind of vacated for
Speaker 2: a long period of time. And then this is pretty
Speaker 2: lucky for me, is the year that I started at Michigan,
Speaker 2: they started a caretaker program there, so I was one
Speaker 2: of the first caretakers there. But they've continued that program
Speaker 2: since I've been there, So graduate students still live there
Speaker 2: and it's you I've been there to visit a few
Speaker 2: times and it's still standing and it's a beautiful old
Speaker 2: you know, kind of white farmhouse. But it's got it's
Speaker 2: you know, it's it's aged a little bit, but the
Speaker 2: price is right, you know, it's it's ten hours ten
Speaker 2: hours of greens mowing a week. Is is is worth it?
Speaker 1: Yeah? All right? So the Gateway course, what projects would
Speaker 1: be part of that course that would help in the
Speaker 1: drive toward sustainability? Do you think if if that course
Speaker 1: were built?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So having a little kind of laboratory for golf is,
Speaker 2: if you can imagine, would be a great benefit to
Speaker 2: a golf course because you can really explore and experiment
Speaker 2: with different turf species, different irrigation strategies, different nutrient cycles
Speaker 2: and so forth, and you can you can experiment on
Speaker 2: this on this little course before you you put it
Speaker 2: out on the on the big course. And so also
Speaker 2: there's you know, so that's that's one component of it.
Speaker 2: Also there's, uh, the challenge of getting new players into
Speaker 2: the game. So signing up for a tea time and
Speaker 2: playing eighteen holes is a very intimidating thing for a
Speaker 2: new golfer. And so if you had a space where
Speaker 2: you could you kind of learn learn the ropes a
Speaker 2: little bit and figure out how to play what's the
Speaker 2: flow of around, even if it's on a short, little
Speaker 2: nine hole part three course. You know, you kind of
Speaker 2: get the feel of playing around of golf and then
Speaker 2: you can take the next step. So it's a it's
Speaker 2: a gateway to golf as well as a sustainability and
Speaker 2: just having a place for for fun. You know how
Speaker 2: popular you guys were just up at Bandon Dunes, right
Speaker 2: And I don't know if you play the Preserve or not.
Speaker 1: That way, you didn't play the Preserve, and people have
Speaker 1: been giving us a hard time rightfully, so that we didn't.
Speaker 1: But I have played the Preserve. I have. I have
Speaker 1: been out there and played for sure.
Speaker 2: Well you know that that's that's the often the highlight
Speaker 2: of people's trips is playing the Preserve because it's unique
Speaker 2: and it's like a more of a it cultivates this
Speaker 2: level of play, like the playground at Goat Hill it's
Speaker 2: a short, little three hole course it's for kids, and
Speaker 2: or the punch bowl at Bandon Dunes as well. I've seen,
Speaker 2: like I have this memory of these these older guys
Speaker 2: on abandoned trip just laughing like little boys on the
Speaker 2: punch bowl and running around and just having a blast.
Speaker 2: And those different models of golf. I think really enhance
Speaker 2: you know, the big golf, like the eighteen hole rounds
Speaker 2: and so forth. So having a little little space to
Speaker 2: experiment and show to people and get new people involved
Speaker 2: and try new things and have bees and grow some
Speaker 2: food and have a lot of laughs, just making a
Speaker 2: fun experience. I think having more spaces like that is
Speaker 2: really valuable for the game.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, I've thought of short courses often
Speaker 1: as being spaces of experimentation for architecture too, because at
Speaker 1: courses like the Preserve or the Sandbox at Sand Valley,
Speaker 1: architects can try more daring ideas than they could on
Speaker 1: a full eighteen hole course, because for whatever reason, when
Speaker 1: golfers play a short course, they are primed to accept
Speaker 1: weird stuff. You know, it's okay if there's like a
Speaker 1: super crazy green, or if there's an eighty yard hole
Speaker 1: that's completely blind, Whereas if they saw that on a
Speaker 1: big course, they might say, oh that's gimmicky, Oh that
Speaker 1: doesn't have any place here. On a short course, they're
Speaker 1: more like, oh, this is fun, and so they're in
Speaker 1: more of a kind of accepting frame of mind. And
Speaker 1: I guess the same could be true of maintenance. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, having a place to test things out and play
Speaker 2: around with architecture, with management, and with just getting people
Speaker 2: involved in golf is of I think of great value
Speaker 2: for a space like Raddick Farms and being affiliated with
Speaker 2: the university too really pride, you know, Michigan really prides
Speaker 2: itself on being the leaders and best in all these
Speaker 2: these activities and having having a place where you can
Speaker 2: really use that space to get people involved in golf
Speaker 2: and benefit the community. There's it's just kind of a
Speaker 2: win win win situation there, and I hope we move
Speaker 2: forward with it sometime soon.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for talking to me, Parker, and
Speaker 1: good luck with your with your ventures. This episode was
Speaker 1: edited by Meg Atkins. Thank you, Meg, and if you
Speaker 1: want to learn more about Parker Anderson's work and his company,
Speaker 1: Greener Golf, you can go to Greener dot golf. Thanks
Speaker 1: for listening.