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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 2: Trust me, Trust for trust me.

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Speaker 3: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 4: I've never lied to you. If you think.

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Speaker 2: That one person has all the answers, don't welcome to

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Speaker 2: trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation

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Speaker 2: from two Bond girls who've actually experienced it. I'm Lola

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Speaker 2: Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth, and today our guest is

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Speaker 2: the incredible Nadine Macaluso. She's a psychologist, trauma bond expert,

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Speaker 2: ex wife of Jordan Belfort aka the Wolf of Wall Street,

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Speaker 2: and author of her new book Run Like Hell, A

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Speaker 2: Therapist's Guide to Recognizing, Escaping, and Healing from Trauma Bond

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Speaker 2: and Yes, Nadine is the one place made by Margot

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Speaker 2: Robbie in the movie. She's going to tell us about

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Speaker 2: how her relationship with her ex husband began, what the

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Speaker 2: red flags were in retrospect, and how it led her

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Speaker 2: to become a therapist with a focus on trauma bonds.

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Speaker 2: We'll talk about the difference between intensity and intimacy, why

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Speaker 2: she uses the term pathological lover instead of narcissists, and

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Speaker 2: how pathological lovers engage in what she calls mind mapping

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Speaker 2: to figure out your vulnerabilities, much like what cult leaders do.

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Speaker 1: We'll discuss intermittent reinforcement and how love mixed with violence

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Speaker 1: creates more intense bonds, but violence doesn't necessarily need to

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Speaker 1: be present for emotional abuse to be traumatic. Plus the

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Speaker 1: three phases of trauma bonds, how to tell if you're

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Speaker 1: currently an a trauma bond and what to do about

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Speaker 1: it if you are, and green flags that are the

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Speaker 1: sign of a healthy relationship, Plus how to find your

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Speaker 1: authentic self if you never were allowed to access it

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Speaker 1: in your childhood, like people raised and guilts exactly.

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Speaker 2: There's so much good information in this episode. I love it, Meggan.

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Speaker 2: Before we go digging, what is your cult using?

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Speaker 1: And the cultiest thing in the week for me is

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Speaker 1: a new scientific theory that I have.

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Speaker 4: I never thought I would make one up myself, but

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Speaker 4: I have.

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Speaker 1: My theory is after talking to Nadine and reading her

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Speaker 1: excellent book, there's some evolutionary glitch in our brains, much

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Speaker 1: like you know how we want to eat a lot

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Speaker 1: because we don't understand that there's a grocery store at

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Speaker 1: the end of the street because our ancestors had to

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Speaker 1: live off a rabbit for forever, so they would just

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean like that, which I think

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Speaker 1: there's some glitch where we are programmed to kind of

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Speaker 1: obey the most narcissistic or the most powerful seeming person

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Speaker 1: in our tribe. Maybe that's a boss, maybe that's a lover,

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Speaker 1: maybe that's a cult leader or whatever.

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Speaker 4: Because otherwise they'd probably just kill us. That's my theory.

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Speaker 2: I like this theory. I mean, we know that in groups,

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Speaker 2: humans and animals kind of will follow the most dominant

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Speaker 2: animal or person, which I mean, I don't know the

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Speaker 2: exact survival instinct that explains that that where that comes

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Speaker 2: from evolutionarily, other than that maybe like if an animal

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Speaker 2: was really dominant, that meant that it would be able

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Speaker 2: to protect the best because it would be the most aggressive.

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Speaker 2: But the other thing you touched on is also interesting,

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Speaker 2: where it's like we have all this stuff left.

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Speaker 4: Over from our old brains.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, from our old brains. And then also, like the

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Speaker 2: other thing you said also is really interesting.

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Speaker 4: Thanks.

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Speaker 2: I'm a scientist that you're such a scientist, this idea

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Speaker 2: that like, if it makes us feel good, we need

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Speaker 2: more of it. And you know, we obviously know about

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Speaker 2: that in relation to addiction and sex addiction and gambling addiction,

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Speaker 2: but we don't really ever think about that in terms

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Speaker 2: of like community and love and bonds where we're like,

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Speaker 2: give me more, give me more, and give me more.

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Speaker 2: I would call it more of a hypothesis than a theory, sure,

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Speaker 2: but I'm a fan.

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Speaker 5: I like it.

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Speaker 1: I will also add that I until I went to

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Speaker 1: school for studying it, I always thought trauma bonds were

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Speaker 1: like you're like I was raising the cult, and I

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Speaker 1: was like I was raising the clult.

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Speaker 4: Oh my god, we're trauma bonding, like over having trauma.

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Speaker 4: We're bonding. We're having trauma.

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Speaker 1: Trauma bond is a completely different thing that's between you

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Speaker 1: and your.

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Speaker 4: Quote unquote abuser. So anyway, worth noting, what about you?

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Speaker 4: What's the cultiest thing that happened to you this week?

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Speaker 2: The story is so sad it's like hard to even

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Speaker 2: talk about. But as you know about this, and for

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Speaker 2: our audience members who don't know about this, there was

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Speaker 2: a woman in Los Angeles who went by Danielle Ayoka,

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Speaker 2: who was a spirituality influencer, like an astrology influencer, and

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Speaker 2: she clearly had some kind of psychotic break and this week,

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Speaker 2: on the day of the eclipse, she was posting a

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Speaker 2: bunch of stuff on Twitter about you know, the time

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Speaker 2: is here, Like she said, wake up, wake up, the

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Speaker 2: apocalypse is here. Everyone. There's power in your choice. If

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Speaker 2: any spiritual account is not revealing the truth right now,

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Speaker 2: they are fake. There lies all this stuff. She ended

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Speaker 2: up killing her husband and then on the four or

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Speaker 2: five freeway threw her children out of the car and

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Speaker 2: her baby died, and it's it's so freaking horrific. I

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Speaker 2: won't go into the details of the story because it's

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Speaker 2: just like the most upsetting thing ever. But you know,

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Speaker 2: I started just reading about the story on Reddit because

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Speaker 2: there were a lot of people who used to follow

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Speaker 2: her or still you know, were into her and were like,

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Speaker 2: what the fuck, what is happening? How could this happen?

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Speaker 4: She killed herself as well, all.

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Speaker 2: Right, right, yes, then she crashed into a tree, and

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Speaker 2: she's also she also died. But there's so many people

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Speaker 2: who were like very into her and they're they're bewildered

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Speaker 2: by all of this. Two things that I thought were

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Speaker 2: interesting about this story, aside from just like, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's harrowing. It's terrible and tragic, And there are people

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Speaker 2: who were theorizing that she was having a really severe

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Speaker 2: case of postpartum that triggered by polar or something something.

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Speaker 2: You know, obviously there's a huge mental health episode happening

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Speaker 2: here in her children and partner had to take the

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Speaker 2: brunt of that, which is awful.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's not helped by all of these people

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Speaker 1: saying the world's ending, it's the eclipse, it's blah blah

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Speaker 1: blah blah blah, like so dangerous.

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Speaker 2: We live in times that feel apocalyptic, I mean in

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Speaker 2: every possible way, on the planetary level, like climate change,

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Speaker 2: and on a her national level. Yes, like there's so

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Speaker 2: much that's happening all at once, and AI like I

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Speaker 2: understand how this is, Like I feel like this is

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Speaker 2: there's gonna be more of that where people who already

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Speaker 2: maybe have a pre existing mental health issue are triggered

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Speaker 2: to more severity. But two things that I thought were

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Speaker 2: interesting aside from all of that on Reddit were one,

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Speaker 2: I had never heard the term spiritual psychosis before, and

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Speaker 2: I don't even know if it's an official term or

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Speaker 2: if this is just a thing that redditors are saying,

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Speaker 2: but it's a really useful term for this kind of

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Speaker 2: thing that does seem to happen a lot when someone

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Speaker 2: is deeply mentally ill and they have a break. And

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Speaker 2: then also some of the TikTok responds instead of being like, Wow,

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Speaker 2: this is so sad, I can't believe this happened. There

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Speaker 2: are a bunch of Christian accounts saying that this is

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Speaker 2: what you get from messing with the darkness or whatever,

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Speaker 2: and she was actually possessed because she did just like

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Speaker 2: astrology or whatever. So fucking stupid, you guys. That's the

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Speaker 2: opposite point.

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Speaker 1: It reminds me of that story that happened a couple

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Speaker 1: of years ago that haunts my nightmare is about that

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Speaker 1: surf instructor in San Diego, or maybe maybe it was

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Speaker 1: somewhere in California. Super normal, super handsome, and he took

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Speaker 1: his kids to Mexico, yeah, and killed them. Super Christian

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Speaker 1: thought the apocalypse was coming was like reading codes in

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Speaker 1: the Bible, and so that's an example of a Christian

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Speaker 1: person doing it.

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Speaker 4: It's just like, I like.

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Speaker 1: The term spiritual psychosis because I read an email he

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Speaker 1: sent to his friend in jil where he was like,

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Speaker 1: either I'm right or I've actually gone completely insane, and

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Speaker 1: You're just like, oh, man, that's gonna like hit him,

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Speaker 1: you know, well.

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Speaker 2: Like yeah potentially, yeah, yeah, yeah, Oh my gosh god.

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Speaker 2: I hope that we improve mental health access in this

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Speaker 2: country and like create a culture where if something like

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Speaker 2: this is coming on, there's a way to do something

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Speaker 2: about it and prevent it. But I don't fucking know

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Speaker 2: how you would do that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'll just say like, because I am you

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Speaker 1: know how. We always talk about how I do believe

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Speaker 1: in the spiritual world, and I follow all of these things,

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Speaker 1: but I try to keep the percentage like ninety eight

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Speaker 1: percent grounded in reality and then two percent following my

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Speaker 1: tarot cards that I pull that day, and like.

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Speaker 2: You're not letting it dominate your choices.

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Speaker 1: You have to keep it grounded. But I do believe

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Speaker 1: in a different like a five D realm, and all

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Speaker 1: of those things I truly do, so I understand if

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Speaker 1: I've gotten to points in my life where that's become

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Speaker 1: my main way of making decisions and it's just not

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Speaker 1: a very grounded reality for me.

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Speaker 2: So I love that, hoy, you can have beliefs that

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Speaker 2: are not just like all science all the time, which

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Speaker 2: is more on my side of things, but like, you

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Speaker 2: can't let that be the sole determinant of your decision

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Speaker 2: making and your life like And I will add also

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Speaker 2: that she from what I read, she also had gone

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Speaker 2: down a quan On rabbit hole kind of and was

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Speaker 2: posting a lot of conspiracy theory stuff and anti Semitic stuff,

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Speaker 2: so it was sort of this combination of all of

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Speaker 2: those factors happening, and I'm sure it didn't help.

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Speaker 4: So that's that sad story that poor child.

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Speaker 1: I know, a lot of crazy stuff is going on

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Speaker 1: in the world right now that cannot be denied, but

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Speaker 1: Nadine is doing really good work and is explaining how

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Speaker 1: we can avoid at least some bad things. And I

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Speaker 1: love that she gives us screen flags for relationships and

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Speaker 1: ways to go forward.

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Speaker 4: In more healthy manners. So I agree.

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Speaker 1: We are so excited for y'all to hear this episode.

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Speaker 1: Shall we talk to her?

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Speaker 4: Let's do it all right.

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Speaker 2: Welcome Nadine Mcaluso to trust me. Thanks so much for

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Speaker 2: joining us today.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward

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Speaker 3: to a lively conversation.

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Speaker 2: Me too, and Megan too.

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Speaker 5: I'm really excited.

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Speaker 2: So there's so much to get into with you. You

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Speaker 2: are a therapist yourself, You have personally experienced trauma bonding,

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Speaker 2: and I want to get into that side of things,

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Speaker 2: the sort of more academic therapeutic side of things later on.

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Speaker 2: But first I would love to start with your story

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Speaker 2: because you were married to someone who is well known

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Speaker 2: for being played by Leonardo DiCaprio in the movie The

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Speaker 2: Wolf of Wall Street which is based on his book

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Speaker 2: Margot Robbie. Is you in that movie? So this is

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Speaker 2: a very prominent relationship that you experienced that was a

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Speaker 2: source of trauma bonding for you. So can you tell

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Speaker 2: us how that relationship began? Was there love bombing? What

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Speaker 2: was it like in the beginning?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I would say that my ex husband is

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Speaker 3: a quintessential love bomber.

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Speaker 6: They gave new meanings to love bonding.

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Speaker 3: And so I met him when I was twenty two

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Speaker 3: years old, as the movie depicts, I went to a

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Speaker 3: party at his house and it was a crazy party,

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Speaker 3: and we met, and I guess he was smitten with me,

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Speaker 3: and then hence we say the rest is history. But

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Speaker 3: what happened is that he started the love bombing very quickly,

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Speaker 3: in the sense that he made somebody of our mutual

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Speaker 3: friend fifteen thousand dollars in the stock market to get

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Speaker 3: me to meet with him and her for dinner.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: So he was determined to meet me, and we did meet,

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Speaker 3: and I had no idea it was a setup. I

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Speaker 3: just thought I was going to dinner and he was coming.

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Speaker 3: And we had a great first meeting. And I'm went

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Speaker 3: from Brooklyn, he's from Queens. He's very charming. And then

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Speaker 3: he drove me home and I was like, I think

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Speaker 3: this guy likes me. But he was married at the time,

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Speaker 3: so as a twenty two year old girl, I couldn't

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Speaker 3: even fathom that somebody who was married would be interested

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Speaker 3: in somebody else. Like those two things just didn't go

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Speaker 3: together for me. So I was modeling at the time,

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Speaker 3: and we didn't see each other again for a while,

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Speaker 3: but then we bumped into each other pretty much at

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Speaker 3: the gym again, and we went on our first date,

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Speaker 3: a real official first date, when I realized he did

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Speaker 3: like me and I was certainly interested in him. And

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Speaker 3: then after that it was flowers and gifts and we gave,

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Speaker 3: like he sent his driver to my house with fifteen

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Speaker 3: thousand dollars just for the fuck of it.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, and yeah gives remember that was.

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Speaker 3: That's a lot of money now and it was a

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Speaker 3: lot of money twenty five years ago.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So it started with a lot of love bombing,

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Speaker 3: and you know, of course I had thought that I

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Speaker 3: had met my total solmi.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean that's the phase that is so intoxicating

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Speaker 2: when it's happened. I've experienced it.

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Speaker 4: You've experienced it, oh yeah.

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Speaker 2: Point and maybe it was your book, maybe it was

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Speaker 2: an interview, I can't remember where. The movies depict this

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Speaker 2: idea of love as like it's instant, sparks, the chemistry,

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Speaker 2: it's undeniable, it's so passionate and strong. But actually when

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Speaker 2: relationships start that quickly, in that fiery that can be

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Speaker 2: this sign that maybe something isn't super healthy, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, you know what happens with with trauma bond

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Speaker 3: is that the relationship develops at a very quick pace.

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Speaker 3: And what I like to say is intensity. It's not

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Speaker 3: intimacy love that and so you know, it's just this

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Speaker 3: is what I say. If it feels too good to

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Speaker 3: be true, it probably is right. And because this person

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Speaker 3: is so invested in being the most charming person on

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Speaker 3: the planet and why is that?

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Speaker 1: You're absolutely stunning. So I can see why he's interested

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Speaker 1: in you off the bat. But do you think there

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Speaker 1: were tendencies in you that he found vulnerable that he

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Speaker 1: was like that one?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm assuming even I don't know. No, I've never

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Speaker 3: like asked him that, but my research would show yes. Well,

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Speaker 3: because I depicted my book, I'm highly agreeable, which means

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Speaker 3: that I'm loyal and tolerant, and relationships are everything to

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Speaker 3: me right and I'm conscientious, which means I'm organized and

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Speaker 3: diligence and I have a lot of integrity. So I

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Speaker 3: don't know if he knew those things like directly, but

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Speaker 3: those traits, as I talked about in my books, certainly

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Speaker 3: did make me pray why for someone like that? Yeah,

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Speaker 3: because I'm naturally trusting.

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Speaker 5: Right, Yes, And that's what we find with cult a lot.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, is that the people who are the most caring.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, oftentimes get open minded.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, exactly, very similar.

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Speaker 2: What how old was he when this was?

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Speaker 3: He's only five years old?

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Speaker 2: Okay, just careious because married man sound wasn't sure?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, no, only five year difference. Yeah.

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Speaker 6: I was twenty two, he was twenty eight.

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Speaker 2: And so how did that relationship progress? And you know

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Speaker 2: he was he was married. How did that evolve into

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Speaker 2: all getting married? And then how did it kind of

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Speaker 2: start to turn dark?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? So when we got so when we got together,

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Speaker 3: he claimed me he was separated, separate apartment and that

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Speaker 3: he was separating from his wife. I'm sure that my

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Speaker 3: relationship ex my relationship with him expedited that process.

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Speaker 6: And he didn't have any children.

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Speaker 3: I mean he was only married for a short period

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Speaker 3: of time, so he was able to get out of

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Speaker 3: that relatively quickly. And if we go back to the trauma,

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Speaker 3: Bland needing to be at a very intense fast pace.

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Speaker 3: The red flex came very early on, but I ignored

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Speaker 3: them or I didn't know what they were, because someone

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Speaker 3: like this, they really want to lock you up, right,

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Speaker 3: So six months into dating, he's like, if you're not

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Speaker 3: going to marry me, I'm not going to.

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Speaker 5: Date you, Oh wow.

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Speaker 3: And I was like, what, Like, I'm twenty three years old,

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Speaker 3: I'm modeling in the city. I don't want to get married.

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Speaker 3: My parents had gotten divorced, so I really had like

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Speaker 3: this kind of little thing that I'd made with myself.

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Speaker 3: I didn't want to get married till I was thirty.

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Speaker 3: Whether that was ridiculous or not, I don't know.

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Speaker 8: That was what I thought, right, But he plowed past

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Speaker 8: that boundary because it didn't matter what I wanted, it

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Speaker 8: was he wanted.

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Speaker 3: And then of course the goalpost moved. Then if you

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Speaker 3: don't have children, I'm not going to marry. Threatening in

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Speaker 3: the dominance and the intimidation started really six months in.

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Speaker 3: But in my young girl's mind, I was just like, oh, he.

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Speaker 6: Just loves me.

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Speaker 5: That's romantic, romantic seeming, right, he just loves.

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Speaker 3: Me so much. But inside my gut was like, oh boy,

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Speaker 3: But I overrode my gut repeatedly.

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Speaker 2: Can you think of other examples that you look back

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Speaker 2: on now where you did do that, like other red

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Speaker 2: flags that you saw, Well.

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Speaker 3: I think you know, even the love bombing really was

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Speaker 3: a huge red flag because it was so over the top, right,

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Speaker 3: so extreme and Another one that I really overlooked was

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Speaker 3: I was modeling and making a good amount of money

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Speaker 3: for myself, and he was like, just stop modeling. Three

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Speaker 3: thousand dollars, that's nothing.

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Speaker 6: I make that in a second.

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Speaker 3: That okay, right, So slowly but surely, the control started

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Speaker 3: to take over. Now, again I didn't look at that

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Speaker 3: as control, but I knew that it felt possessive and

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Speaker 3: I did have a resistance to it. But again that

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Speaker 3: combined with the extreme love bombing and passion I kept

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Speaker 3: overriding in my gut.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, here's what I'm interested in. My girlfriend is

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Speaker 1: dating somebody right now, and she was like, I can't

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Speaker 1: tell if he's love bombing me or if he's just

355
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Speaker 1: over the moon about me. And I'm wondering, like when

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Speaker 1: do they move into the next stage, Like when do

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Speaker 1: they start making it not love bombing?

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, well when did it start for you?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it can it can vary, but like

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Speaker 3: I said, it's six months when those threats started, the

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Speaker 3: doctor threats, I could see, as we call it, the

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Speaker 3: mask start to fall. Right, So the love bombing quickly

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Speaker 3: turns into control, domination, and possessiveness.

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Speaker 2: Is that a common length of time because when I

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Speaker 2: look back on an emotionally abusive relationship that I had,

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Speaker 2: that was right about when it started to shift as well, Like,

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Speaker 2: I didn't see any of that dark side, the controlling side,

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Speaker 2: until right around six months.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it can vary, but I do think

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Speaker 3: six months for me at least was my experience. But

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Speaker 3: I've known people for it to come out a few

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Speaker 3: years later. And another red flag that overlooks was extreme jealousy.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, but after being love blumbed, it does seem

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Speaker 1: romantic or in like, oh, in the cool situation, it

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Speaker 1: does seem.

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Speaker 4: Like these people just really care about me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like it feels good to have somebody want to

379
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Speaker 1: be possessive over you, even when it feels kind of bad,

380
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Speaker 1: it still feels.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, totally is jealousy though was not did not feel

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Speaker 3: great because well, I'll give you an example. You know,

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Speaker 3: one day I was taking it off lesson and I

384
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Speaker 3: stopped to get us lunch because I was like, oh,

385
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Speaker 3: that's a nice thing to do. And I came home

386
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Speaker 3: and he's like, you you're fucking the golf pro.

387
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Speaker 4: Oh what that was my job?

388
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Speaker 6: I just met you.

389
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Speaker 3: By then you have to remember a person like that

390
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Speaker 3: projects onto you what they're doing.

391
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Speaker 5: Right right.

392
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was just like no, I wasn't just stop

393
00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,240
Speaker 3: to get a sandwich. Wow. Yeah.

394
00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:22,880
Speaker 2: A common theme in my old relationship as well would

395
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,960
Speaker 2: be the accusations of things that were just like so ridiculous,

396
00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:28,919
Speaker 2: like any male friend I have I wanted to have

397
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Speaker 2: sex with them, or I was.

398
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Speaker 1: A man calling you a whore as like my new

399
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:35,000
Speaker 1: number one red flag?

400
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:36,800
Speaker 2: Yes, who would be doing that?

401
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,080
Speaker 1: I just I've seen it and experienced that. There's this

402
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,280
Speaker 1: weird pattern I see in abusive relationships for the persons

403
00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:45,520
Speaker 1: always like curious light your a whrror?

404
00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:45,879
Speaker 4: I don't know.

405
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, the jealousy is the control, like yeah, take taking

406
00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,520
Speaker 2: control over who they spend time with and getting paranoid.

407
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:55,600
Speaker 3: Yeah. And then also youet to look at it this way,

408
00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,240
Speaker 3: is that if they're accusing you of something they're doing,

409
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Speaker 3: which I don't even know if he was doing that

410
00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,520
Speaker 3: at that time, but I know that's the pattern. It's

411
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Speaker 3: a great way to deflect.

412
00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:05,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you're the problem.

413
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:07,760
Speaker 6: Book, so we're onto them.

414
00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:10,160
Speaker 5: Yeah exactly.

415
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,080
Speaker 2: So at what point did you realize like, I'm in

416
00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,080
Speaker 2: an abusive or unhealthy or toxic relationship?

417
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think for me on being a little dense,

418
00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,760
Speaker 3: I think at that time it took me. Yeah, it

419
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,080
Speaker 3: took some time for me. I think a few years

420
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Speaker 3: in I was like, Houston, we have a real problem,

421
00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:35,960
Speaker 3: because I think throughout the whole time too, I you know,

422
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,440
Speaker 3: I was of this belief that my love will heal him. Right,

423
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,800
Speaker 3: and I write about this. You know, some the intimate

424
00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,639
Speaker 3: abuse where sometimes they're extraordinarily loving and kind and generous

425
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,760
Speaker 3: and helpful. The other times they're cool, controlling and me right,

426
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:55,280
Speaker 3: that creates that real confusion, and so you always have

427
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,640
Speaker 3: hope that they're going to go back to the nice, kind,

428
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Speaker 3: generous part.

429
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Speaker 2: Right, I resonate so much with I mean, I know

430
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,960
Speaker 2: that's just just super common, but I but the idea

431
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:06,919
Speaker 2: of like, my love will heal him. I could just

432
00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 2: say the words in the right way to make him understand,

433
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:12,719
Speaker 2: and I can empathize him to death, you know, like

434
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Speaker 2: that he'll stop.

435
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Speaker 5: And we'll get into this more later.

436
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,560
Speaker 1: But one of the things that stood out to me

437
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:20,600
Speaker 1: so much in your book is that you wrote that

438
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Speaker 1: animals who are trained with both love and violence are

439
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Speaker 1: two hundred and sixty percent more.

440
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,120
Speaker 3: Two they attached.

441
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Speaker 6: They attached two hundred and thirty percent more to their.

442
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Speaker 1: Trainer than if they were just given love. So that

443
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 1: inner mentent love and terror is like some glue sticking together. Yeah,

444
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,719
Speaker 1: making this thing so much deeper. And again not to

445
00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,760
Speaker 1: bring everything back to cults, but like, yes, that's what

446
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,320
Speaker 1: they do, no, of course it's crazy.

447
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:51,920
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah yeah.

448
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,640
Speaker 3: And when I read that statistic, I literally was jump

449
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:59,439
Speaker 3: through my ceiling because I was so happy. That makes sense.

450
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:06,000
Speaker 3: We've got to stop stop stigmatizing victims. Yes, apologizing the victims, right,

451
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,320
Speaker 3: and that's what society has done. And I am sure

452
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,639
Speaker 3: when you read my book you see that I really

453
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 3: turned the head on.

454
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 5: That, Like I'm like no more, yes, yes, no more.

455
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,520
Speaker 3: And this is why this is research. This isn't my bias,

456
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:22,639
Speaker 3: right right, So I like it when research supports good things,

457
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:23,440
Speaker 3: yeah I do.

458
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:34,960
Speaker 2: So, So how did you end up leaving?

459
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 6: So I finally left.

460
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,640
Speaker 3: You know, my ex husband was a severe, severe drug addict,

461
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,680
Speaker 3: and his drug addiction was building and building and building,

462
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 3: and no matter.

463
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,200
Speaker 6: What I did, it was it was just out of control.

464
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 3: And so I finally ended up leaving because I confronted him.

465
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,639
Speaker 3: Two reasons why I left. I confronted him about his

466
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 3: drug addiction and told him, I'm not going to sit

467
00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:00,240
Speaker 3: here and want to kill yourself. All your friends are

468
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,119
Speaker 3: just sucking money from you and wanting to use you.

469
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 3: And he went crazy and through my clothing and jewelry

470
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 3: and lit them in the fire, put them on you know,

471
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,440
Speaker 3: with them in the fire and put them on fire. Yeah,

472
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 3: And that was the one time he did get violent

473
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,200
Speaker 3: with me, was when he kicked me down the stairs,

474
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 3: but luckily I wasn't hurt. The police came and he

475
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 3: got arrested, and so he did end up getting sober,

476
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,359
Speaker 3: which was great, but at that point I was really

477
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 3: done with him. As you could imagine, it was years

478
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,400
Speaker 3: of emotional abuse and course of control and then that

479
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 3: horrible incident. And then we stayed together for about a year,

480
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 3: but we never really reconciled, and actually it was worse

481
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:48,199
Speaker 3: than reconciliation because when I tried to talk to him

482
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 3: about all of the pain I had endured, he was

483
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,080
Speaker 3: very callous and insensitive. I didn't know that word back then,

484
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,639
Speaker 3: but he was like, that wasn't such a big deal,

485
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 3: And at that moment my heart closed it just and

486
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 3: again I didn't know all these words back then, right,

487
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 3: But I can only guide by what I was feeling inside.

488
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,680
Speaker 3: And then he got arrested, and then I said, that's it,

489
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,200
Speaker 3: because I knew I was safe because he couldn't hurt

490
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 3: me anymore.

491
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 2: Right, he was literally on house arrest.

492
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 5: Right, he's on.

493
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 6: House arrest, and now he was the government's problem and.

494
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 3: A longer my problem. Right, And I knew I was safe,

495
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,119
Speaker 3: and that's why, you know. And then I finally left,

496
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 3: and I was you know, and I often say that

497
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 3: to my patients.

498
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 6: You know, in a way, I was lucky.

499
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:41,640
Speaker 3: That he got arrested because it took his power away, right, right.

500
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 3: A lot of my patients don't have that same I

501
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 3: know it sounds weird luxury.

502
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 2: No, for sure, I mean physically leaving it can be

503
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 2: such a problem for so many people.

504
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 6: Yes, and post separation abuse is really real.

505
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,680
Speaker 3: And you have to remember you're also in the bond, right,

506
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 3: So it's ironic.

507
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 6: That his like onto the government was what enabled me

508
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 6: to break.

509
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 2: Right, right, Thanks government, Thank god for that.

510
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,159
Speaker 1: And at the end we'll get into a little bit

511
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: about how you suggest people stay safe when they leave.

512
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 5: And this book is just a must musterred.

513
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 2: I just want to know before we jump into what

514
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 2: your book is really about. What was the experience of

515
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 2: his book coming out and the movie coming out? Was

516
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 2: that hard for you?

517
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 3: Yeah? Of course, I mean, you know, it's just like anything,

518
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 3: right with emotions.

519
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 6: You go up, you go down, you go sideways, you

520
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:36,440
Speaker 6: go this way.

521
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 3: Yeah. So originally, originally I had written the book and

522
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 3: he sent me the book, and you know, I can

523
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 3: be quite emotionally emotional myself, and I was like, I

524
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,879
Speaker 3: can't believe you, did, you know, having my mad luci

525
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 3: A moment and crying in bed and my husband's like, okay,

526
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 3: even crying for three hours. Time to get up now,

527
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 3: my current husband. But I got over it, right, I

528
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 3: went to therapy. I processed it. Then I hear it's

529
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 3: going to be a movie, and I'm like, oh my god, Okay,

530
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:08,120
Speaker 3: Well the nightmare continues. And what's hard is that when

531
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 3: you know, I lived through such a traumatic marriage and

532
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 3: it was so tragic for me. I mean, now I

533
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 3: can talk about it twenty five years later. Processed it

534
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 3: at nauseum. But it was horrible, and so for my

535
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 3: horror to be entertainment for the people didn't feel great.

536
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 3: But again, I went to so much therapy, and then

537
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 3: at one point I just saidney Deine, you have to surrender.

538
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 3: This is bigger than you. And I didn't know that

539
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 3: this would end up being my life's work. I had

540
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 3: no idea. But I do have a practice of surrendering,

541
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 3: which I started after I left him. I realized I

542
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 3: really can't control much of my life right, except for myself,

543
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 3: So that's how I dealt with it. At one point,

544
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 3: I just said, okay, how I'll let go with this.

545
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 2: Well, so then, do you have a PhD?

546
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 3: I got yes.

547
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 6: I went back to school at thirty nine, got.

548
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 2: My master's maps.

549
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, I was. I was.

550
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 6: I was in the I was a garment manufacturer.

551
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 3: So I went from model to garment manufacturer, and I

552
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 3: realized there was so much ages a minute, I was

553
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 3: meditating like we all do in California. We drink greets,

554
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,679
Speaker 3: we meditate, we do yoga, right, and so I was like,

555
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:23,400
Speaker 3: I'm going to become a therapist.

556
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,120
Speaker 6: And I went back to school.

557
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 3: I went to pacifica graduate institute in Santa Barbara, amazing

558
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 3: school I highly recommended for adults. And then while I

559
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,159
Speaker 3: was getting my masters, because I knew therapy had helped me,

560
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 3: so much, so I was like, I really want to

561
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 3: do this and I believe in it. And then while

562
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 3: I was getting my masters, you have to do three

563
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:45,679
Speaker 3: thousand hours to get licensed, so I said, I might

564
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 3: as well continue with my doctorate. And then it was

565
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 3: right around that time that the movie was coming out,

566
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 3: so luckily I had done all that.

567
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:55,680
Speaker 5: Wow, perfect timing.

568
00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, let's start talking about the work that you've done,

569
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,439
Speaker 2: because I think it's so important, and the way you

570
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 2: lay out this sort of systematic way that these bonds

571
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 2: happen is so important. I think. Can you tell us

572
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 2: about phase one, the seduction phase?

573
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 4: Yeah?

574
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, So I think it's important to even go

575
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 3: a little bit before that and talk about you know,

576
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 3: our trauma bonds is a toxic, dysfunctional relationship, right, and

577
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:30,159
Speaker 3: it can happen between lovers, families, friends, bosses, and cults. Right.

578
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 5: We know that it.

579
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 3: Happens in numerous different relationships. But it has set two conditions.

580
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 3: It has to have the power balance. Someone has to

581
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 3: have the power and they have to abuse and exploit

582
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 3: that power, right, And so they can get it because

583
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 3: of resources. They can get it, because we emotionally depend

584
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 3: on them. They can get it because they are intimidating

585
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 3: and abusive and we fear them in any ways that

586
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 3: they can gain power. And then it has to have

587
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 3: what we talked about, which is the intermittent abuse. So

588
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 3: those conditions must be present for it to be a

589
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 3: trauma bosed, right, So that's important for everybody to know.

590
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 6: And then we go into that suite.

591
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 3: It starts with promises of hope and love and tenderness

592
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 3: and we're going to be together forever and all the

593
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 3: love bombing. And I talk about twining where they start

594
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 3: to twin you and say I like that, Oh you

595
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 3: like pizza. I like pizza. You have tennis, I like

596
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 3: TENNISU And then you think you've met a unicorn.

597
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 6: And then but you don't realize the whole time they're really.

598
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 2: Mind mapping you tell us what that means, So.

599
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 6: They're really reading your What do you like?

600
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 3: What don't you like? What are your values? Who really

601
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 3: are you? Because they must know you to be able

602
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 3: to control you.

603
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 5: What do you need is that yeah?

604
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 3: Or like you know? I write about this in one

605
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 3: of the couples that one of the women who had

606
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 3: real abandonmine issues with her author.

607
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 6: One of the guys Tom.

608
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 3: He knew that every single time they got into a fight,

609
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 3: if he abandoned her, she would crawl back to him. Right,

610
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 3: So somebody maybe without that sort of you know, wound,

611
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 3: would not respond the same way. Right. So they find

612
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 3: out your triggers.

613
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 4: And they use language. You know, we're two peas in

614
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 4: a pod.

615
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: All of these things that start making your brain kind

616
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: of it's like they're hijacking your brain.

617
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, And the hard part is that you

618
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 3: have no idea this is happening.

619
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 5: Do they know that it's happening?

620
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 2: As I was going to ask, is it Do you

621
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 2: think it's conscious or not? Probably a person think, I

622
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 2: think for some of.

623
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 3: Them, especially the Machiavellian ones, right, manipulative. And the whole

624
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 3: thing about this pathological man is that if we look

625
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 3: at behavior, behavior's behavior, but what's the intention behind the behavior? Right?

626
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 6: I go into this relationship with the intention to love.

627
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 3: Share my life, connect with someone, deepen into the say,

628
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 3: of course, enjoy all the money and the purpse. I'm

629
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 3: not going to pretend that that wasn't fun, right, But

630
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 3: my main goal and intention is to love. But their

631
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 3: main intention is to use, on, betray and exploit anyone

632
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 3: to get their needs met for money, power, pleasure, and status.

633
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 2: I think about, you know, the profit in quotation marks

634
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 2: that I believed in, who targeted and exploited my mother.

635
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 2: He mine mapped the fuck out of her and with him,

636
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 2: we know, based on things that he wrote later in

637
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 2: ways he's talked about it, that he did it fully,

638
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 2: intentionally and fully knowingly, like finding where her weaknesses were,

639
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 2: finding what her trauma was, and then you know, like

640
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 2: recreating whatever he could to make her feel like. He

641
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 2: had to be a special he had to he must

642
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 2: be a prophet because no one else would know these

643
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 2: things and be able to make her feel these feelings.

644
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,959
Speaker 6: You know, that's right, that's right, the puppeteer.

645
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 2: Why is the fast pace so important.

646
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 3: Because this way you can't see them.

647
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 2: Coming, because if they can't stop to think critically about

648
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 2: the behavior.

649
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 3: Exactly, and you know all that flood of all.

650
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 9: Those feel good hormones right that are going through you

651
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 9: and my experience, then I believe this now in retrospect,

652
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 9: is he knew who he was and he didn't want me.

653
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 6: To catch on to that.

654
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 3: He wanted to me yeuh or before I saw it right.

655
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 2: I want to mention one thing because I'm sure people

656
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 2: would be like men. What so women also obviously can

657
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 2: be this type of person, but you you're the emphasis

658
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 2: in your practice is on treating women, right, Yeah, because.

659
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 3: And not because I mean, listen, I'm happily married for

660
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 3: twenty four years. I have beautiful son in laws that

661
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 3: are inside my son's want.

662
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 6: I don't dislike men, right, I not this even existed.

663
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 3: It's just that what the research has shown and what

664
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 3: my practice shows, it's the majority of it is.

665
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 2: Who who are the victims of it?

666
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 6: Yes?

667
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 4: Yes?

668
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 2: And then I also wanted to know if you can

669
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 2: define this term that you use, pathological lover, what does

670
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 2: this mean?

671
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 3: Yeah? So so it draws me crazy that on the

672
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 3: internet everybody just uses this word narcissism.

673
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I hate it.

674
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 5: She hates it on It's.

675
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 3: Just not it's not it's not psychologically sound, it's just not. So. Yes,

676
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 3: a pathological lover is pathological means somebody who's mentally unwell.

677
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 3: So I call them a pathological lover because I believe

678
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 3: that anybody that would use and betraying and harm somebody

679
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 3: that they love for their own needs is mentally unwell.

680
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 3: So they have a lot of different facets to their personality,

681
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 3: and that's why it's so tricky. So they usually have

682
00:33:54,600 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 3: a cluster B personality disorder like narcissism, antisocial personality order,

683
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 3: historyonic or borderline. And then they usually then so they

684
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 3: have that, right, the cluster B. And then I use

685
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:12,399
Speaker 3: the term dark tetrap, which is an umbrella term that

686
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 3: describes a person who has certain characteristic traits of psychopathy, narcissism, sadism,

687
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 3: and machiavellianism. Now they a lot of them don't have satis.

688
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 3: I have to say that that is definitely the worst one.

689
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 3: But at the core of this individual and this personality

690
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,399
Speaker 3: is selfishness and hostility and antagonist. Right.

691
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 6: And then they can have a substance use disorder.

692
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 3: They can have a compulsive sex or process disorder such

693
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,399
Speaker 3: as gambling. Right, they can be impulsive, and they can

694
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:48,399
Speaker 3: have substance use.

695
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 2: So interesting, I haven't really heard it discussed in conjunction

696
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 2: with substance use that much, other than maybe with borderline.

697
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know what, another trick that I've seen a

698
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 3: lot of them take testoster that's not really I missed

699
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:05,479
Speaker 3: that point.

700
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,320
Speaker 6: That is a common theme. And now they're all doing Academy.

701
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 2: What why you drug Jr?

702
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 4: That interesting? Interesting?

703
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 3: As if I if I took a survey of a

704
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 3: lot of the women I worked with them would say

705
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 3: sixty percent.

706
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:22,919
Speaker 5: Of their partners fascinating.

707
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 2: Do you think that's just like a desire to like

708
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 2: maximize their pleasure and their you know, their ability and.

709
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, orange and yeah, yeah.

710
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 5: Wow, that's fascina.

711
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 8: The last thing they need is that, right, ill a

712
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 8: pathological lever because it's much more complex than just a

713
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,839
Speaker 8: person who's self absorbed and wants to have a good image.

714
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, And do you think that's I'm just out of curiosity?

715
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 2: Like do you I feel like the Internet's idea of

716
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,399
Speaker 2: this type of personality is that there's narcissists and there's

717
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:57,839
Speaker 2: everyone else, and it's this black and white thing, and

718
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 2: the narcissis are evil, Like do you think it comes

719
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 2: from like in some circumstances, like we can see that

720
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 2: there's like a wounded child under knees, but there's no

721
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 2: accessing it and that's the problem more so than like

722
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 2: they are evil? Is that possible?

723
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean I don't I don't like to use

724
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 3: the word evil, but I what I would like to

725
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 3: say is they have malevolent intent. Mm hmm, have bad intention.

726
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 3: So I mean, there definitely is a wounded person inside

727
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 3: of there that's that's acting out, you know, in an

728
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 3: adult body. But at this point right in life, there's

729
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 3: so many resources go get fucking.

730
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 9: Hell, right exactly, why do they they want to get

731
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 9: help if they're getting all their needs.

732
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 5: Met right right?

733
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 1: I'm reading this book right now that I just randomly

734
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 1: bought the other day. It's Sociopath, the memoir of about

735
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:51,399
Speaker 1: this woman who's like, I'm a sociopath and she's like.

736
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 5: I just feel I've seen that. Yeah, it's really it's

737
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 5: really good.

738
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 1: So she's like, I feel completely empty and I'm hurting

739
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: someone and the emptiness feels like pressure that is like

740
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 1: boiling over, and I just have to do something naughty

741
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 1: or I'll freak out.

742
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 2: But she's a malignant type. Though, yeah, not everyone is

743
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 2: like no, no, no, not at all.

744
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 3: But that is a good point because a lot of times,

745
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,399
Speaker 3: if you think about aggression, it's really a dry It's

746
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,879
Speaker 3: like the aggressions building, building, building, building, and it has

747
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 3: to pop out at somebody.

748
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:25,919
Speaker 4: Right right.

749
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 2: It's so baffling, but ultimately, like I do feel like

750
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 2: I can try to you know, wrap my head around

751
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 2: their psychology to the end of the earth. But ultimately,

752
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 2: the behavior is what matters. If the behavior is not

753
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 2: getting fixed or there aren't efforts, genuine efforts over a

754
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 2: period of time being taken to amend it, then like

755
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:47,879
Speaker 2: all the you know, the all things in the world

756
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 2: don't matter.

757
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 3: They're not really they don't matter, you know, it's just

758
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 3: that we's just good to define and understand all their nuances,

759
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,320
Speaker 3: right right, because are so complex.

760
00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 6: But no, right there.

761
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 3: And also their words never matched their actions. Oh totally, yeah,

762
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,840
Speaker 3: it just never happens. But yeah, no matter what we

763
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 3: call them, Yeah, we could call them like an elephant,

764
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 3: like if they're hurting you that much.

765
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,320
Speaker 1: Right, Well, something interesting you wrote is that the relationship

766
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 1: is fast paced and it's thrilling and hypnotic, and the

767
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:26,919
Speaker 1: stage it's almost like, yes, they're putting you hands, which

768
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: is a lot of everything we hear, like, yeah, so

769
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 1: interesting that this almost hypnotic state is being curated or

770
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 1: it's a victim.

771
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a it's a prolonged, heightened emotional experience

772
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 2: that's completely consuming of your time and your energy.

773
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:47,800
Speaker 4: Dopamine being released.

774
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, like it makes sense you'd be like not your

775
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 2: normal thinking self in that.

776
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,320
Speaker 6: It's the myths that we've been fed about romantic.

777
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,399
Speaker 3: Awesome day, your prints will come, you will take all

778
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 3: your problems away, life will be perfect. Well, there's a.

779
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,240
Speaker 6: Reason why Cinderella ends once they get married.

780
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 5: Because six months later, Yeah, also.

781
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,760
Speaker 6: Fed these myths that we need to debomb.

782
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 3: Right.

783
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 2: I so appreciate when movies depict a relationship that's like

784
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 2: slow and steady and stable as the like aspirational kind

785
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 2: of love, because that's so it's always exciting to watch.

786
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 2: But like that's what we need to be modeling or

787
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 2: as of love.

788
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,839
Speaker 6: After maybe not may not be as entertaining.

789
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, but we do.

790
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 3: We do.

791
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 6: That's what that's what can stay if.

792
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 3: That's what you want. Right.

793
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 10: Hello, I'm Robbia Ja. I invite you to join me

794
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,640
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795
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,960
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00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,960
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797
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798
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799
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:12,920
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800
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801
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802
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 2: So tell us, well, I want to hear a little

803
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 2: bit more about the intermittent reinforcement thing, because it is

804
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 2: such a fascinating concept. Can you explain what that means

805
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:40,359
Speaker 2: in animal research and how that translates here? Yeah?

806
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, So you know, as we were saying that that's

807
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 3: what they could, that that's what they realize in the

808
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 3: in between the animal trainers and the appens, right, that

809
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 3: this intrimittent reinforcement I call it intimate abuse, but being

810
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:58,240
Speaker 3: abusive and cruel actually makes you fond to a person

811
00:40:58,400 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 3: more and it and.

812
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 6: It kind of makes sense because if you think about.

813
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 3: It, when you're so mad with him up with someone

814
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 3: and then you can big blow up explosive argument with them,

815
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 3: you feel like you're gonna die, you know, And what

816
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 3: happens is that they can become the only person that

817
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 3: can soothe you and give you relief. Two, you get.

818
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 6: Really really really bonds into them.

819
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 3: And then what happens is, you know, because of the

820
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 3: inter re enforcement, we get a very serious symptom which

821
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 3: I read about called cognitive dissonant, which is the glue

822
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 3: of the trouble. And so we talk about the two masks,

823
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 3: the bad guy, doctor Jacol mister Hyde. So you have

824
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 3: two totally different experiences in the same relationship. A good

825
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 3: guy is a bad guy? Is a relationship good? Is

826
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 3: relationship bad? Am I crazy? Or is he crazy? And

827
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:59,360
Speaker 3: so you have all of these questions running around inside

828
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 3: your brain and it causes a lot of mental discomfort

829
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 3: inside of us in confusion. What the fog like we

830
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 3: speak about because you're always trying to figure out what

831
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 3: is it? Who is it?

832
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 6: What are we?

833
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 2: Yeah? And with me and you can and tell me

834
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 2: if this is something that you commonly see. But what

835
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:21,799
Speaker 2: I noticed was there would be this constant deflection of

836
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 2: whatever I was accusing him of would get turned. He

837
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 2: would say that I was doing it, so he would.

838
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 3: He not laughing, but it's yes, yeah, yeah.

839
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 2: Like I started to use the word abusive because I

840
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 2: was like, hey, ex boyfriend, like, this behavior is abusive,

841
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 2: And then like three days later he starts using that

842
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 2: word about me.

843
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 3: Oh my god, Q so typical, so difficult. I mean, honestly,

844
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 3: they think this is smart. It's also so they all

845
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 3: do the same thing, and that's like the gaasliding right

846
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 3: when and then they start to like really make you

847
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 3: question your perception of reality. Right, You're being bed next

848
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:01,440
Speaker 3: to them, and they'll go to the bathroom. Sudden you

849
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 3: look at their phone and they're texting somebody else and

850
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 3: you're like, you're it's only texting someone else, Like, no, no,

851
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 3: I was doing that for my coworker. Really. Wait then

852
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 3: they vehemently deny it, and then they do what you say,

853
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 3: and last week you were out late, right Yeah, now

854
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 3: you're just on your heels. You're defending yourself and you're like, cawn,

855
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 3: I get here.

856
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 1: I'm thinking of one former guest in particular who was

857
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:31,839
Speaker 1: talking about how when she got into this relationship with

858
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 1: her cult leader, she was so ashamed to keep telling

859
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 1: her friends and family about it, so the only person

860
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 1: who could comfort her was the guy who she was following. Yeah,

861
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 1: so it becomes this thing where the person is so

862
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:48,799
Speaker 1: ashamed to get comfort from anyone else that the only

863
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,879
Speaker 1: person who can comfort them is the exact person who

864
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 1: is abusing them.

865
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 6: Form so that their tormentor becomes their sooth.

866
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:56,719
Speaker 3: Right.

867
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like what is them the mouse and the cheese.

868
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 2: Thing like if the if the mouse, I'm going to say,

869
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 2: this is completely wrong.

870
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,839
Speaker 5: I'm going to I'm excited. What is she about to say?

871
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 2: It's something like if if the cheese is there at

872
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 2: the door every like fourth time or whatever, the mouse

873
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 2: will continue to go to that door forever. It learns

874
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 2: that eventually the positive thing will be there. So if

875
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:28,400
Speaker 2: it just keeps trying.

876
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 3: Exactly intimate and reinforcement, that's it, right, right, that's exactly it. Right. So,

877
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 3: so now you have you have the intimate and reinforcement,

878
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 3: you have the cognitive dissonance, and the cognitive dissonance makes

879
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:47,399
Speaker 3: your executive functioning go offline this part of your brain

880
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 3: the wise human. That's so now you can't plan. Now

881
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 3: you can strategize. So now you combine that with shame. Right,

882
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 3: Shame is horrible, horrible process. I don't even call it

883
00:44:59,880 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 3: a feeling. It's like a process of I'm bad, I'm wrong,

884
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 3: I'm broken, And now we just start to isolate and

885
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 3: isolate and now we're stopping in it.

886
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 2: And often they're they're are isolating you right on top

887
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 2: of right.

888
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 3: You know, they want to isolate you from family and

889
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 3: friends with as you mentioned you isolate you because it

890
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,720
Speaker 3: feels embarrassing to go to tell everybody the same story

891
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 3: over and over again.

892
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 2: But you don't need right, Yeah, I totally relate to that. Yeah.

893
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 2: So you mentioned something that I think is super interesting,

894
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 2: which is that when someone is in an abusive relationship,

895
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 2: they can appear to someone who's not familiar with their

896
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 2: situation like they have a psychological disorder because.

897
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:52,280
Speaker 5: They're the victim the crazy.

898
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 2: Yeah.

899
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:58,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, oh my god, yeah I was crazy. I

900
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 3: mean you're like I have. Doesn't made me so many

901
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 3: Initially in the beginning, I through the last trauma Cannidra

902
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:09,280
Speaker 3: at his head. Oh wow, I would never do that. Yeah,

903
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 3: but it was just that's that reactive abuse that just

904
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 3: makes you so out of your mind you do things

905
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 3: you would never do. Yeah, any comes in the house

906
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 3: like all these crazy things. Right.

907
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 1: That leads me to what you're You always say about

908
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 1: getting specialized therapy, because, as you say in your book,

909
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 1: if you haven't a therapist who doesn't know about a

910
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: trauma bond, she could be or he be like you're codependent,

911
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:37,320
Speaker 1: why do you enable this whatever?

912
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 4: Instead of being like you're in a trauma bond.

913
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:45,760
Speaker 3: You're being abused by a pathological person. That we're acting out.

914
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:50,440
Speaker 3: You can't sleep, you're ruminating, you're feeling depressed, right right,

915
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 3: You're hopeless, you're feeling shame, you're feeling anxious because when

916
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:57,799
Speaker 3: they're around you, you fear them. I mean, right, And

917
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 3: that's why it's and so many people get change.

918
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:01,720
Speaker 5: My therapists get misdiagnosed.

919
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 2: And yeah, I was seeing a therapist the whole time

920
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 2: I was in that Oh that's not true. I was

921
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 2: in a different toxic relationship. When I was saying that

922
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 2: they're dating.

923
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 4: In Los Angeles, that's such a treat.

924
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:12,720
Speaker 5: But that one wasn't abusive.

925
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 2: It was just bad for both of us. I want

926
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 2: if someone's listening to this and they're like, am I

927
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:18,759
Speaker 2: an a trauma bond?

928
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:18,920
Speaker 3: Like?

929
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 2: What would you what would the science be that they

930
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 2: should look for?

931
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, I would want them to look for. You know,

932
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:30,759
Speaker 6: is this person very controlling?

933
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 2: Right?

934
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 3: Are they very possessive? Do you feel like you have

935
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 3: to completely lose yourself to be connected to this person?

936
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 3: If you have to deny your needs, do you have

937
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 3: to like you can't express how you're feeling, right, You

938
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 3: can't set limits or set boundaries, right, your whole set.

939
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:53,239
Speaker 3: If you feel like your whole sense of self is

940
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 3: getting erased, you're probably right and to really pay attention

941
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:00,160
Speaker 3: to that. And then of course all the things as

942
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,319
Speaker 3: we mentioned about love bombing, the instrument and abuse, you know,

943
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:09,279
Speaker 3: the gas lighting, the deflection. But also but if you're disappearing, yes,

944
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:12,720
Speaker 3: little right, you have a problem.

945
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 4: Right.

946
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:17,320
Speaker 3: Love is two things. It's quality of connection and someone

947
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 3: giving you the space to be who you are.

948
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 2: I love that. Yeah, you know, I loved what you

949
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 2: said about I wrote it down. Oh, intensity is not intimacy.

950
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 2: You said that earlier.

951
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, how can you?

952
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'm just repeating the same things you

953
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:38,400
Speaker 2: already said. But I just feel like that captures so

954
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,839
Speaker 2: much of it. Intensity can feel like love and it's not.

955
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 2: It's right, healthy love is something different, right.

956
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 3: Right, And I think you know, when we're in love,

957
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 3: we get very wrapped up in our field. Right, it's

958
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 3: a very feeling centered place. But sometimes we have to

959
00:48:57,200 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 3: go back to facts.

960
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 5: Oh I hear that.

961
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 3: Yeah? Does his actions match his words?

962
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:09,760
Speaker 6: Does he say what he says he's going to do?

963
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:09,840
Speaker 9: Do?

964
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 6: Five times out of ten?

965
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 3: When I leave him, I feel terrible because he's being

966
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:20,279
Speaker 3: abusive right, So it's like you have to go back

967
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:24,279
Speaker 3: to facts. He lied, he betrayed me, he abused me.

968
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 3: He's trying to control me, like not just all the feelings.

969
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 3: And that's where really.

970
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 2: Tricky for people, right, are these loving behaviors? Would someone

971
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,799
Speaker 2: who actually loves me treat me like this?

972
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 5: And I think the more simple the better.

973
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: I'm talking to a friend right now who's leaving the

974
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 1: cult I was raised in, and she just keeps having

975
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 1: to tell herself like really simple facts, like the FBI

976
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 1: is investigating it. This is happening, you know what I mean,

977
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,880
Speaker 1: instead of getting wrapped up into the story.

978
00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:57,720
Speaker 5: Story right, it's.

979
00:49:58,080 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 6: Bad of the story.

980
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:01,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, that's so true. That's so true.

981
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 2: I read that Bell Hooks book All about Love, and

982
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 2: she actually quoted someone else, but Eric from I guess

983
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:10,359
Speaker 2: defined love as I just liked this definition, the will

984
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 2: to extend oneself for the purpose of nurturing one's own

985
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 2: or another's spiritual growth.

986
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:18,319
Speaker 6: Yes, that's from the Art of Love.

987
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:23,360
Speaker 7: Oh, the book that was written in nineteen fifty eight.

988
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:26,839
Speaker 4: I think, look at you, Encyclopedica.

989
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 3: My mother gave me that book a long time ago,

990
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:33,800
Speaker 3: and I quote Eric from in my book. So I

991
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 3: love that book. It's like this.

992
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:38,800
Speaker 4: Big she's doing a little tiny thing for people.

993
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 3: Know that. It's about how love is when you're invested

994
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:43,920
Speaker 3: in the growth of another.

995
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 2: I love that definition book.

996
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:48,439
Speaker 6: It's a beautiful book.

997
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 4: Thank you, bums.

998
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 5: I love that.

999
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's because you're right, like, if you rely

1000
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:58,440
Speaker 2: on our feelings, well, our feelings can be manipulated real easily, really.

1001
00:50:58,000 --> 00:50:58,239
Speaker 4: You know.

1002
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:02,760
Speaker 2: And they're right, they're good to guide us to an extent.

1003
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:06,479
Speaker 3: To an extent, they for sure are. And that's where again,

1004
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:11,280
Speaker 3: all of this gets so tricky, right my book, because

1005
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 3: it's right. I think I am right in there. If

1006
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 3: it took me ten years of school and three years

1007
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 3: of these two hundred and fifty pages, it's probably gonna

1008
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 3: be hard for it, yeah, because I.

1009
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:26,919
Speaker 6: Could barely figure it out even as I was writing.

1010
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 5: Well it is.

1011
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 2: It's such a hard thing to navigate. I mean, like,

1012
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 2: especially for you know, I think a lot of us

1013
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:34,800
Speaker 2: really want to see the best in people and believe

1014
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 2: that they're well intentioned, and believe that there is part

1015
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 2: of them that wants to get better. And sometimes sometimes

1016
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 2: that's true, that is true sometimes yeah, but no, go on, no.

1017
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:48,319
Speaker 3: But but here's the thing is that, you know, that's

1018
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,279
Speaker 3: another red side, Like I'm talking to my creature, I'm

1019
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:54,919
Speaker 3: going to therapy, I'm going to sex addicts anonymous, right, right,

1020
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 3: But nothing ever changes. Yes, and people can change, they

1021
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:00,919
Speaker 3: just have to want to.

1022
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 2: Right, and it has to be persistent over time. Like

1023
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 2: my ex went to therapy I think three times to

1024
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:08,320
Speaker 2: appease me and then never went again.

1025
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:11,280
Speaker 3: That's right, that's right, that's when I feel.

1026
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 1: It, right, right, I'm just going to add in something

1027
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:16,919
Speaker 1: I just thought of and maybe it's smart, and maybe

1028
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 1: it's stupid.

1029
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:18,240
Speaker 5: Let's see.

1030
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:23,919
Speaker 4: I think it's I think.

1031
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:26,239
Speaker 1: It's important to note that there's a difference between feelings

1032
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 1: and gut instincts because so many things that cults are

1033
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:33,480
Speaker 1: trying to break us away from our initial gut instincts.

1034
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 1: Don't feel your own feelings whatever, And those are kind

1035
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 1: of the in the beginning of the love bombing thing

1036
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 1: where it gets overridden and then our feelings can no

1037
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:46,400
Speaker 1: longer be a guide because we're backwards.

1038
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's that's very true.

1039
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:49,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is.

1040
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:53,120
Speaker 6: God is different. God is your.

1041
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:58,719
Speaker 7: Success, right, yeah, and it's and and also, feelings can

1042
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 7: be tricky because we all usually have two default feelings

1043
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:08,440
Speaker 7: that we usually default too that are like those two.

1044
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1045
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:11,400
Speaker 6: So a lot of people are shame and anger or

1046
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 6: shame and sadness.

1047
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 3: So when I work with people, and this isn't in

1048
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:16,920
Speaker 3: the book, but this is just me being a therapist,

1049
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 3: I would say, Okay, whatever your default feelings are, we're

1050
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:22,240
Speaker 3: not going to follow them.

1051
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 6: Every other emotion I want you to follow, right.

1052
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 3: So that's where it gets even trickier.

1053
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:35,440
Speaker 2: And that's why see a specialized It helps you navigate that, you.

1054
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 3: See it right, right, because we don't want to follow shame.

1055
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, So tell us about phase Two's.

1056
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 3: When we get into the emotional scars and all the

1057
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:48,359
Speaker 3: symptoms that we start to feel, which you.

1058
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:50,320
Speaker 6: Know, intrusive symptoms things.

1059
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:53,800
Speaker 3: And then we feel anxiety, we feel depression, we feel hopelessness,

1060
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 3: we feel shame. A lot of women get physical symptoms,

1061
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:00,760
Speaker 3: right because your immune system is effected all the stress

1062
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 3: and it causes inflammation. So and we get a loss

1063
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:08,360
Speaker 3: of self, we have cognitive dissonance. So these emotional scars

1064
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 3: are very real, and I talk about them, and then

1065
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:14,799
Speaker 3: I talk about you know what are women's last straws?

1066
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:16,160
Speaker 4: Right?

1067
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:18,240
Speaker 6: You know everybody has a last straw?

1068
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:22,320
Speaker 3: Is it fear for yourself, you can't take the complete control.

1069
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 6: Is it fear for your children?

1070
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:30,239
Speaker 3: Has he gotten physically harmful? Vide get and ankle bracelet.

1071
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 3: Everybody has their own last straw. And actually I did

1072
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 3: a video on this my post on Instagram and it

1073
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:41,840
Speaker 3: got like two hundred and fifty common interesting people telling

1074
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:45,560
Speaker 3: me their last straw, very different a lot and unfortunately

1075
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 3: a lot of the women's last straw were like attempted strangulation.

1076
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:50,920
Speaker 2: My gosh.

1077
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:53,120
Speaker 1: And that is one of the biggest signs that your

1078
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 1: partner is capable of.

1079
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 3: Yes, knowing it is one of the biggest signs.

1080
00:54:57,280 --> 00:54:59,200
Speaker 6: Yes, we don't talk about that a lot.

1081
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 3: I'm going to do a video on that actually.

1082
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:03,800
Speaker 6: But so we all have a lot of straws and

1083
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 6: then we have to leave safely.

1084
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 3: And that's where I talk about never let them see

1085
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 3: you coming.

1086
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 6: Like they didn't let you see them coming.

1087
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:16,799
Speaker 2: A little reaps, you know, right to wear the masks right.

1088
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 2: Tell us more about that? Is that because they will

1089
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:24,720
Speaker 2: try to manipulate you the second they find out basically, yeah, yeah.

1090
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:25,799
Speaker 6: They will try to manipulate you.

1091
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:28,719
Speaker 3: They will stop you listen if they're not nice to you,

1092
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:30,400
Speaker 3: when they're supposedly in love with you.

1093
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:32,600
Speaker 6: How nice you think they're going to be when you tell.

1094
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 3: Them you're leaving them? And this relationship is built on

1095
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:39,240
Speaker 3: coercive control at the bottom of the trauma bonus control.

1096
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 3: They don't want to lose their control, you know, the

1097
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 3: object that they're controlling, and so you have to behind

1098
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:48,719
Speaker 3: the scenes. You know, depends on if you're you know,

1099
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:50,799
Speaker 3: if you're in a relationship is different than if you're

1100
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 3: married and have children, right you. I tell the women

1101
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:56,640
Speaker 3: you have to document everything. You have to get all

1102
00:55:56,680 --> 00:55:59,880
Speaker 3: the documents you need. I talk about cleaning your computer,

1103
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 3: cleaning your phone, right, scrubbing everything of anything that they

1104
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:07,360
Speaker 3: could use against you, looking for documents that you need

1105
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:12,279
Speaker 3: because you really have to be completely prepared when you

1106
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:14,799
Speaker 3: tell them, and don't tell them alone. Don't tell them

1107
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 3: when on substances, you know, so I get a lot

1108
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:22,720
Speaker 3: of things. Don't hopefully protect the woman and our family

1109
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:24,759
Speaker 3: as much as as possible.

1110
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:29,640
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, you hear make a plan and it's always

1111
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:30,960
Speaker 2: so vague to me. I'm like, what does that mean?

1112
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:32,960
Speaker 2: But I guess it's all of those things and having

1113
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:35,840
Speaker 2: a place to stay and yeah, yeah.

1114
00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:38,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, like I like or I have a thing now,

1115
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:41,400
Speaker 3: you know, with women, if I know that the violence

1116
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:44,439
Speaker 3: is escalating, I'm just like, Okay, we're going to stay

1117
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 3: in it. But then you have a friend that second

1118
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:49,880
Speaker 3: you think you're going to get her armed or his

1119
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 3: threats really happen, text the friend of code word, let

1120
00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 3: the friend call the police because I want to start

1121
00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:59,799
Speaker 3: the divorce off with him on his heels and having

1122
00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:01,200
Speaker 3: a temporary restraining one.

1123
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:04,960
Speaker 1: Well, well, while we're still in phase two of being

1124
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:08,360
Speaker 1: all in, which you call the trauma of ar attacks,

1125
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 1: which I love.

1126
00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 4: Yes, that's exactly what it is.

1127
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 1: You write about how non violent abuse can be as

1128
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:19,080
Speaker 1: bad as violent abuse. Can you say a little bit

1129
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:19,800
Speaker 1: more about that?

1130
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:21,960
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, I skipped it phase three?

1131
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, No you didn't.

1132
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:28,520
Speaker 3: No, No, the trauma bartex Yeah, that's when the mask falls,

1133
00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:31,760
Speaker 3: and that's when like all the abuse starts, right and well,

1134
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:34,640
Speaker 3: the emotional abuse, if you think about it, there's two

1135
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 3: pieces to it. You have the course of control, which

1136
00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:42,520
Speaker 3: is when somebody's dominating, intuminating, threatening and really possessed them

1137
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 3: and jealous and wants to control you. But then you

1138
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:48,800
Speaker 3: have the manipulation piece with a gas slighting line to

1139
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:53,920
Speaker 3: you betraying you, right, and a lot of times disparaging

1140
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:57,160
Speaker 3: you to make you fear them, so that trauma bartex

1141
00:57:57,320 --> 00:58:02,720
Speaker 3: is so confusing, right, and emotional abuse you know, nobody

1142
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 3: can see, so you can look normal to the world,

1143
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 3: but inside you feel like you're dying. And I felt

1144
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 3: like that if you lose yourself, you can't have will

1145
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:16,240
Speaker 3: an agency for that self.

1146
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:19,959
Speaker 1: Right, right, So yeah, I guess yeah, And part three

1147
00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:24,640
Speaker 1: you are having to find yourself again eventually, yes, which

1148
00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:27,080
Speaker 1: I'm assuming takes therapy.

1149
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:30,439
Speaker 3: It's see, it's possible. And you know, you can even

1150
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:33,320
Speaker 3: find yourself better, you know, usually a lot better than

1151
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:36,120
Speaker 3: you were before. And that's how I start out. You know.

1152
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:38,760
Speaker 6: Section three is about post traumatic growth.

1153
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:42,320
Speaker 1: Which we love, Yes, we love post traumatic growth. We do, well,

1154
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 1: how do you define that?

1155
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:46,360
Speaker 3: So postomatic growth is, you know, even though you've experienced

1156
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:49,800
Speaker 3: this very traumatic experience, and this is a relational trauma,

1157
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:52,840
Speaker 3: it's different than a hurricane or a earthquake or a

1158
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:56,240
Speaker 3: car accident, right, It's more chronic. That's why it's complex.

1159
00:58:57,480 --> 00:59:01,120
Speaker 3: Postomatic growth is that you know, well a sudden, life

1160
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:04,720
Speaker 3: becomes more meaningful all of a sudden, your connections can

1161
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:08,320
Speaker 3: be richer all of a sudden, you become more confident

1162
00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:13,200
Speaker 3: because you have overcome that and recovered. You're recovering, so

1163
00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:17,880
Speaker 3: you actually can become a better version of yourself than

1164
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:22,440
Speaker 3: you were pre the relationship, or a more actualized person.

1165
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 3: And it's possible. And the research shows, especially from intimate

1166
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:28,439
Speaker 3: partner violence or a trauma.

1167
00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:31,040
Speaker 2: Bond, post traumatic growth is especially possible.

1168
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 3: Yes, especially yeah, Oh that's so relational trauma.

1169
00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:38,720
Speaker 2: That's amazing, great, Yeah, it's great.

1170
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:43,720
Speaker 1: Why is relational trauma so traumatizing? And then so like

1171
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:46,320
Speaker 1: makes us grow so much if we overcome it.

1172
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:52,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, So relational trauma is traumatizing because the very person

1173
00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 3: that's supposed to protect, love and cherish you harms you. Right,

1174
00:59:56,560 --> 01:00:01,440
Speaker 3: And that's that's that's extraordinarily, extraordinarily painful. It's different than

1175
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:05,240
Speaker 3: a random accident that just happens, you know, whether it's

1176
01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:09,200
Speaker 3: a parent or a call leader or a lover, and

1177
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:12,280
Speaker 3: they just totally exploit that trust.

1178
01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:12,880
Speaker 2: Right.

1179
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:15,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so crushing, as you know.

1180
01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:19,640
Speaker 2: And more fundamentally, like social creatures, we need love, we

1181
01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:23,840
Speaker 2: need those connections, that's right, that's right. If our life

1182
01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:26,600
Speaker 2: is reduced to justice, one connection, I mean, it makes

1183
01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:28,760
Speaker 2: sense that that would feel like we're going to die

1184
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:30,200
Speaker 2: because we're wired that way.

1185
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:32,680
Speaker 6: Yes, and that's why it feels like that for the parent,

1186
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:33,360
Speaker 6: for the child.

1187
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:37,080
Speaker 1: So the parent, Oh yeah, and you also said in

1188
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:40,720
Speaker 1: your book that heartbreak is they've done studies where it's

1189
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:43,320
Speaker 1: a ken to being tortured neurologically.

1190
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:46,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. My dissertation share she was great,

1191
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:51,600
Speaker 3: she hade a beautiful vocal heartbreak and that's from her. Yeah. Yeah,

1192
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:54,520
Speaker 3: And you know, so here we are, let's just even

1193
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:57,720
Speaker 3: use attachment trauma like for a baby we're born, we

1194
01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:01,080
Speaker 3: don't win the parent lottery get wounded.

1195
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:03,320
Speaker 6: Thank god we can heal right.

1196
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:06,640
Speaker 3: It gives us hopeful future as an adults. Imagine we

1197
01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:09,160
Speaker 3: would just stuck with that lottery of having a terrible

1198
01:01:09,240 --> 01:01:12,560
Speaker 3: parent and being totally vulnerable and helpless.

1199
01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:15,800
Speaker 6: So I think it's part of evolution.

1200
01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:19,800
Speaker 2: Honestly, And we see that so much here on this

1201
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:22,920
Speaker 2: podcast because we talk to people who've been through some shit,

1202
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:28,680
Speaker 2: very serious shit, and they're like thriving, like so many

1203
01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:32,320
Speaker 2: of them, and they've taken those experiences and they've integrated

1204
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:35,000
Speaker 2: them into their life narrative and they've found the meaning

1205
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:36,960
Speaker 2: in them and they're able to use it to help

1206
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:41,320
Speaker 2: other people and like it's totally possible. It doesn't have

1207
01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:44,520
Speaker 2: to run our lives. And that's so encouraging and hopeful.

1208
01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:48,600
Speaker 2: And you know because sometimes sometimes the Internet makes can

1209
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:51,959
Speaker 2: make at least me feel like, oh, no, trauma, we're

1210
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:54,920
Speaker 2: all trauma, We're doomed to our trauma. But the reality

1211
01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:56,160
Speaker 2: is not that. That's not true.

1212
01:01:56,520 --> 01:02:00,560
Speaker 3: No, we're much more resilience, right than that, and that's why. Rights,

1213
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:02,760
Speaker 3: it's very traumatizing, but it's.

1214
01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:05,200
Speaker 2: Not a life sentence, right, Yes, I love that.

1215
01:02:05,800 --> 01:02:06,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1216
01:02:06,240 --> 01:02:09,760
Speaker 1: Can you say a little bit about intrusive positive flashbacks?

1217
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:15,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, that question. That's a hot topic. So it's so

1218
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:19,800
Speaker 3: hard because when you've been traumatized, a lot of times

1219
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:23,640
Speaker 3: we get negative flashbacks, like you know, we get we

1220
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:26,720
Speaker 3: can flashback is something that just overcomes you. You don't

1221
01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:29,800
Speaker 3: have control, so you just get hit with it based

1222
01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:33,120
Speaker 3: upon some association or some trigger. And so what happens

1223
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:36,520
Speaker 3: when you leave a trauma bond because of the intense

1224
01:02:36,680 --> 01:02:42,120
Speaker 3: love bonding stage, your brain has so many flashbacks of that,

1225
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:48,120
Speaker 3: right because it's been so strongly you know, right, yah, see,

1226
01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:53,120
Speaker 3: brain and heart a nervous system. So and then you

1227
01:02:53,240 --> 01:03:00,000
Speaker 3: feel crazy for finally leaving this abuser and longing for them. Yeah,

1228
01:03:01,240 --> 01:03:05,520
Speaker 3: and everybody judges you, what is wrong with you? You're wanting

1229
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:09,560
Speaker 3: for this asshole who abused to But it's it's it's

1230
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:13,120
Speaker 3: an atypical trauma symptom, specifically from trauma Bob.

1231
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:17,680
Speaker 1: If you're experiencing one, the best advice just to write

1232
01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:19,400
Speaker 1: it out and name.

1233
01:03:19,240 --> 01:03:19,880
Speaker 4: It what it is.

1234
01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:21,240
Speaker 2: Don't take any action.

1235
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 3: Oh to record, call I say, like, have somebody who

1236
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:27,240
Speaker 3: can call, say, talk me out of this. Let's go

1237
01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:30,440
Speaker 3: back to facts, right, have a facts list in your

1238
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:34,800
Speaker 3: in your wallet or on your phone, right, and just say, okay,

1239
01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:36,760
Speaker 3: this is part of the process.

1240
01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:40,560
Speaker 1: The fact list is so clutch, just a list of

1241
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:44,320
Speaker 1: facts that are like okay, and it takes you out

1242
01:03:44,360 --> 01:03:44,840
Speaker 1: of the story.

1243
01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:47,520
Speaker 4: I cannot Yeah, I've needed those in my life.

1244
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:47,840
Speaker 10: Yeah.

1245
01:03:49,160 --> 01:03:53,040
Speaker 3: Yeah really, And they're very scary for the person who's

1246
01:03:53,120 --> 01:03:55,480
Speaker 3: enduring them because they fear longing.

1247
01:03:56,000 --> 01:04:00,360
Speaker 5: They feel longing hurts. Yeah, it's awful.

1248
01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:02,880
Speaker 6: When you're longing for some person of tortureship.

1249
01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:06,440
Speaker 3: Right, it makes you feel crazy, But it's very common

1250
01:04:06,480 --> 01:04:08,040
Speaker 3: because of the extreme lovelon.

1251
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:08,720
Speaker 1: Right.

1252
01:04:09,400 --> 01:04:13,240
Speaker 2: So, someone who's maybe had trauma bon in the past,

1253
01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:17,400
Speaker 2: they're entering a new relationship. Can you talk about green flags?

1254
01:04:17,480 --> 01:04:19,960
Speaker 2: What are signs of a healthy relationship?

1255
01:04:20,680 --> 01:04:21,040
Speaker 6: Yeah?

1256
01:04:21,160 --> 01:04:22,440
Speaker 3: I know, aren't that nice?

1257
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:25,360
Speaker 4: It seems like you're in one now, which I'm so

1258
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:26,360
Speaker 4: happy for you.

1259
01:04:26,440 --> 01:04:28,840
Speaker 3: I have one now. Yeah, I've been married for twenty

1260
01:04:28,880 --> 01:04:32,600
Speaker 3: four years. It wasn't that perfect, you know, it's not

1261
01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:36,800
Speaker 3: trauma bond. Yeah, And so the green flags for me,

1262
01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:41,320
Speaker 3: especially when I first left my ex, was the first

1263
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:44,960
Speaker 3: time I had an argument with my current husband John.

1264
01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:47,160
Speaker 6: We were going back and forth.

1265
01:04:47,240 --> 01:04:50,960
Speaker 3: Conflict occurs, right, we all have rupture in our relationships,

1266
01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:52,840
Speaker 3: and he was like, yeah, here you I get that,

1267
01:04:53,320 --> 01:05:00,720
Speaker 3: and I I love my car. So if someone near you,

1268
01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:05,840
Speaker 3: they can love you, respect your boundaries, if someone's not

1269
01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:09,640
Speaker 3: terribly possessive over you and gives you the space to

1270
01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:13,880
Speaker 3: be authentically who you are, or you know, someone who

1271
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:18,640
Speaker 3: can meet your needs right now, doesn't doesn't deny your

1272
01:05:18,640 --> 01:05:20,680
Speaker 3: emotional needs even if they're different.

1273
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:22,440
Speaker 5: Than his, right right.

1274
01:05:22,520 --> 01:05:26,960
Speaker 1: That's I mean, how do you how so two people

1275
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:29,440
Speaker 1: have different needs, how do you take turns meeting them?

1276
01:05:29,840 --> 01:05:31,960
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I always say, there's like a little trick.

1277
01:05:32,480 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 3: The way somebody treats you is the way they want

1278
01:05:35,240 --> 01:05:38,880
Speaker 3: to be treated, Oh yeah, because they think that you

1279
01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:42,720
Speaker 3: need with what they're giving right, right, So love isn't

1280
01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:45,120
Speaker 3: giving people what you think they need, it's what they

1281
01:05:45,360 --> 01:05:46,360
Speaker 3: actually need.

1282
01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:48,520
Speaker 6: So that's like a little.

1283
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:52,640
Speaker 3: Sign to give that person what they're giving you. And

1284
01:05:52,680 --> 01:05:55,000
Speaker 3: then you actually, you know, as adults, we have to

1285
01:05:55,120 --> 01:05:58,000
Speaker 3: state what we need. We can't just assume.

1286
01:05:57,600 --> 01:06:00,439
Speaker 2: That somebody is going to know I'm going to list

1287
01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:05,160
Speaker 2: about this. My boyfriend finds it very annoying. But but

1288
01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:09,160
Speaker 2: you know, he he struggled to state his needs his

1289
01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:12,479
Speaker 2: whole life. How to do that that we haven't taught

1290
01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:13,840
Speaker 2: men how to do that, and like.

1291
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:17,280
Speaker 5: What does that even sound like for him? Like I need.

1292
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:21,280
Speaker 2: Oh, I mean, I would appreciate it if you would

1293
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:23,640
Speaker 2: not leave the dishes in the sink. But his, you

1294
01:06:23,680 --> 01:06:26,640
Speaker 2: know the way, he was never taught these skills. Sorry, Jack,

1295
01:06:26,640 --> 01:06:29,080
Speaker 2: I'm blowing up your spot here. But he'll he'll he'll

1296
01:06:29,080 --> 01:06:33,760
Speaker 2: talk about it like you know, his he he had

1297
01:06:33,840 --> 01:06:37,040
Speaker 2: some passive aggressive tendencies, but he was willing to work

1298
01:06:37,080 --> 01:06:39,520
Speaker 2: on them and like knew that the you know like

1299
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:41,600
Speaker 2: and knew that he needed to learn how to state

1300
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:43,160
Speaker 2: his needs. So now he's getting better at it, and

1301
01:06:43,160 --> 01:06:44,680
Speaker 2: he's been working on it, and.

1302
01:06:45,760 --> 01:06:48,400
Speaker 3: It's like playing the piano, right, You've got to practice

1303
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:49,400
Speaker 3: the scale, right.

1304
01:06:50,120 --> 01:06:53,280
Speaker 2: I I would love to get to a place culturally

1305
01:06:53,320 --> 01:06:56,960
Speaker 2: where we are all comfortable calmly stating our needs and

1306
01:06:57,080 --> 01:07:01,520
Speaker 2: not assuming that someone else is conflicting with ours is

1307
01:07:01,560 --> 01:07:04,680
Speaker 2: an attack on us, exactly, right.

1308
01:07:04,520 --> 01:07:06,680
Speaker 6: Exactly because we all have different needs.

1309
01:07:06,720 --> 01:07:10,560
Speaker 3: And if you haven't had your needs meant in childhood especially,

1310
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:15,320
Speaker 3: you can really wish that your partner knew them. Yeah,

1311
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:16,960
Speaker 3: that need from.

1312
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:20,040
Speaker 6: The childhood, you know. But I always say to my patients,

1313
01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:21,520
Speaker 6: they're not going to do that. They're like, we need

1314
01:07:21,640 --> 01:07:22,800
Speaker 6: suc today. That's not fair.

1315
01:07:22,840 --> 01:07:25,840
Speaker 3: I am like, I know it's not fair, but you

1316
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:27,640
Speaker 3: know you have to state them now. I know you

1317
01:07:27,680 --> 01:07:29,600
Speaker 3: couldn't do it as a child and you got chipped,

1318
01:07:29,960 --> 01:07:30,320
Speaker 3: but you.

1319
01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:31,280
Speaker 4: Got to stay right.

1320
01:07:31,640 --> 01:07:34,560
Speaker 1: How do you know the difference between a need and

1321
01:07:35,000 --> 01:07:42,280
Speaker 1: this is a question for me for myself, Yeah, how

1322
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:45,400
Speaker 1: do you tell the difference between like a need and

1323
01:07:45,440 --> 01:07:49,040
Speaker 1: an avoidance tactic like I just need to be alone

1324
01:07:49,320 --> 01:07:50,120
Speaker 1: for all?

1325
01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:53,480
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, avoidance is tricky, right, it is? It

1326
01:07:53,560 --> 01:07:58,720
Speaker 3: is tricky. Well you know again, is it like, is

1327
01:07:58,760 --> 01:08:01,760
Speaker 3: avoidance your fault? Yeah?

1328
01:08:02,960 --> 01:08:03,160
Speaker 1: Right?

1329
01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:09,600
Speaker 3: Rights, avoidance your default, which that doesn't mean necessarily that

1330
01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:13,439
Speaker 3: it's bad. But do you mean do you need more?

1331
01:08:13,480 --> 01:08:14,640
Speaker 6: Like you need time alone?

1332
01:08:14,920 --> 01:08:16,280
Speaker 5: Uh huh for forever?

1333
01:08:19,800 --> 01:08:23,200
Speaker 3: And I think you know that that's a little Yeah. Yeah,

1334
01:08:23,360 --> 01:08:26,160
Speaker 3: it's one thing to need to take space to regrow,

1335
01:08:27,000 --> 01:08:28,320
Speaker 3: but then we have to come.

1336
01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:34,880
Speaker 6: Back and community. But avoidances, you know, very common events and.

1337
01:08:37,160 --> 01:08:39,839
Speaker 3: Because you do the opposite and you start to approach

1338
01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:41,960
Speaker 3: and approach and approach and then you just.

1339
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:44,880
Speaker 2: Feel it, yeah, and you get better at it. It

1340
01:08:45,479 --> 01:08:47,680
Speaker 2: takes practice, totally.

1341
01:08:47,880 --> 01:08:49,280
Speaker 6: I was definitely avoidant.

1342
01:08:49,320 --> 01:08:50,080
Speaker 3: I feel your.

1343
01:08:49,920 --> 01:08:52,479
Speaker 4: Sister, so was I. So was I.

1344
01:08:52,479 --> 01:08:55,360
Speaker 2: I had I feel, like I've mentioned them before, but

1345
01:08:55,360 --> 01:08:57,559
Speaker 2: I had. I happen to get really lucky that my

1346
01:08:57,600 --> 01:09:01,480
Speaker 2: first two boyfriends were older than me and highly therapized,

1347
01:09:01,560 --> 01:09:05,240
Speaker 2: and I sucked at communication and it was a rare

1348
01:09:05,280 --> 01:09:09,640
Speaker 2: instance of men doing the emotional labor to bring me

1349
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:12,320
Speaker 2: up to speed. But that was not my instinct, like

1350
01:09:12,360 --> 01:09:14,880
Speaker 2: I had to. I really fought it for a long time.

1351
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:17,880
Speaker 2: But I will say, like, my relationships are so much

1352
01:09:17,920 --> 01:09:20,679
Speaker 2: better now that I can just like say what I'm

1353
01:09:20,760 --> 01:09:23,439
Speaker 2: feeling and ask for what I need, you know.

1354
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:26,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it just feel scary at first, you know,

1355
01:09:26,760 --> 01:09:28,519
Speaker 3: if I tell my patients it's like a new pair

1356
01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:28,920
Speaker 3: of shoes.

1357
01:09:28,920 --> 01:09:32,040
Speaker 6: You're gonna get blisters, but you do get better at it.

1358
01:09:32,400 --> 01:09:38,840
Speaker 2: You do, I promise, Amen, I love it.

1359
01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:40,000
Speaker 5: Are we missing anything?

1360
01:09:40,080 --> 01:09:43,480
Speaker 1: Is there anything you want to add to this conversation.

1361
01:09:44,200 --> 01:09:47,320
Speaker 3: I just think that you know to say to people

1362
01:09:47,400 --> 01:09:50,519
Speaker 3: that don't shame and self. Don't kill yourself with shame

1363
01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:54,520
Speaker 3: and self playing. You know, these people trick and fool everybody,

1364
01:09:55,840 --> 01:10:00,000
Speaker 3: and it's not your fault that you fell for somebody

1365
01:10:00,280 --> 01:10:03,519
Speaker 3: like this. That happens to all of us every day

1366
01:10:03,640 --> 01:10:07,559
Speaker 3: all over the world. But that education will really lead

1367
01:10:07,560 --> 01:10:11,560
Speaker 3: to your empowerment out of this relationship and also empowerment

1368
01:10:11,600 --> 01:10:14,759
Speaker 3: for you as a person. You know, get curious about yourself.

1369
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:16,000
Speaker 3: What's your attachment pattern?

1370
01:10:16,080 --> 01:10:18,799
Speaker 6: Right? Your girls are very clearly looked at yourself.

1371
01:10:18,880 --> 01:10:23,679
Speaker 3: You understand yourself right, a constant process of doing that,

1372
01:10:24,280 --> 01:10:27,160
Speaker 3: and to really because when you're in that relationship, we're

1373
01:10:27,200 --> 01:10:30,920
Speaker 3: so focused on the other person, turn the mirror back

1374
01:10:30,960 --> 01:10:31,400
Speaker 3: on you.

1375
01:10:32,120 --> 01:10:33,439
Speaker 6: What do you need, what do you want?

1376
01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:35,479
Speaker 3: What do you feel? What are your attachment patterns, what

1377
01:10:35,520 --> 01:10:39,200
Speaker 3: are your personality traits? And really get curious and invested

1378
01:10:39,240 --> 01:10:43,080
Speaker 3: in yourself and the rest will come and healing is

1379
01:10:43,080 --> 01:10:45,280
Speaker 3: a one step forward to step back, one sip forward,

1380
01:10:45,320 --> 01:10:47,759
Speaker 3: two step back. But I would say it really takes

1381
01:10:47,800 --> 01:10:50,320
Speaker 3: a year or two, a full two years if you've

1382
01:10:50,360 --> 01:10:53,560
Speaker 3: been in this for a long time to start to

1383
01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:54,719
Speaker 3: feel like yourself again.

1384
01:10:55,439 --> 01:10:59,040
Speaker 2: But you can the point, but you can, you can.

1385
01:10:59,360 --> 01:11:01,519
Speaker 3: You know, work works with the patient this morning, who

1386
01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:05,400
Speaker 3: she's a year out and she's like, I'm feeling better today.

1387
01:11:06,040 --> 01:11:06,560
Speaker 2: Amazing.

1388
01:11:07,200 --> 01:11:08,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, I have one.

1389
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:10,760
Speaker 4: I have one one question that that probably one up

1390
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:11,040
Speaker 4: for me.

1391
01:11:12,040 --> 01:11:15,800
Speaker 1: So, like, you know, people are always like connected with

1392
01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:17,960
Speaker 1: their authentic self, and I was raised in the cult,

1393
01:11:18,040 --> 01:11:20,240
Speaker 1: so I don't know what that authentic self was. I

1394
01:11:20,280 --> 01:11:22,880
Speaker 1: wasn't allowed to do things I wanted to do or

1395
01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:26,360
Speaker 1: you know, my behavior was very controlled. What about somebody

1396
01:11:26,400 --> 01:11:30,280
Speaker 1: whose trauma bond is with their parents, so they you say,

1397
01:11:30,320 --> 01:11:31,880
Speaker 1: like it takes a couple of years to get back

1398
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:33,519
Speaker 1: to your essential self.

1399
01:11:33,560 --> 01:11:35,400
Speaker 4: What if they don't really know who that is?

1400
01:11:36,080 --> 01:11:38,800
Speaker 3: Which is which is very fair and personally, I'm sorry

1401
01:11:38,800 --> 01:11:41,800
Speaker 3: that you endure that. That's oh thank you, No, I

1402
01:11:41,800 --> 01:11:43,720
Speaker 3: mean that's you know, no child should have to go

1403
01:11:43,880 --> 01:11:47,719
Speaker 3: to that. So what I say is that the ego

1404
01:11:48,400 --> 01:11:51,360
Speaker 3: lives and our defenses really live in our brain, and

1405
01:11:51,439 --> 01:11:53,360
Speaker 3: when we want to get to your authentic self, we

1406
01:11:53,439 --> 01:11:55,639
Speaker 3: have to go to our body. This is where our

1407
01:11:55,680 --> 01:11:58,479
Speaker 3: real self lies from like under your chin, to your

1408
01:11:58,479 --> 01:12:03,360
Speaker 3: pelvic floor, right your heart, your chest, your throat, your visceray,

1409
01:12:03,439 --> 01:12:04,160
Speaker 3: your stomach.

1410
01:12:04,760 --> 01:12:06,040
Speaker 6: The body doesn't lie.

1411
01:12:07,320 --> 01:12:09,759
Speaker 3: You have to sort to really pay attention to your body,

1412
01:12:09,840 --> 01:12:13,640
Speaker 3: pay attention to the sensations, pay attention to the signals.

1413
01:12:14,080 --> 01:12:15,760
Speaker 3: And I talk about that in the book where I

1414
01:12:15,800 --> 01:12:18,679
Speaker 3: give that like emotional list and then all the physical

1415
01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:22,400
Speaker 3: sensations that go with them, and you just really start

1416
01:12:22,479 --> 01:12:25,719
Speaker 3: to name you know what you're feeling. And I also

1417
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:29,080
Speaker 3: think the journaling is an amazing place to get to

1418
01:12:29,080 --> 01:12:33,759
Speaker 3: know yourself. It's free, the page doesn't judge, it's always there,

1419
01:12:34,560 --> 01:12:39,000
Speaker 3: and then you start to identify patterns. Yeah, but curiosity,

1420
01:12:39,640 --> 01:12:41,880
Speaker 3: just like a therapist, is very curious and open and

1421
01:12:41,960 --> 01:12:46,160
Speaker 3: non judgmental. That's how you really start to discover your

1422
01:12:46,160 --> 01:12:47,040
Speaker 3: authentic self.

1423
01:12:47,400 --> 01:12:49,719
Speaker 5: Oh, I love that you'd be a good friend to yourself.

1424
01:12:49,880 --> 01:12:51,639
Speaker 5: And then yourself is like, yeah, I want to. I'll

1425
01:12:51,640 --> 01:12:51,960
Speaker 5: tell it.

1426
01:12:52,040 --> 01:12:56,400
Speaker 3: You'll come out to play, right, because you got to

1427
01:12:56,439 --> 01:12:58,719
Speaker 3: make got to make the authentic essential self.

1428
01:12:58,760 --> 01:13:02,439
Speaker 2: No, it's safe, right, right, Well, remind us the name

1429
01:13:02,479 --> 01:13:04,160
Speaker 2: of your book and where people can find it.

1430
01:13:04,720 --> 01:13:07,360
Speaker 6: Sure, my book is called Run Like Hell, A Therapist

1431
01:13:07,400 --> 01:13:11,599
Speaker 6: Guide to Recognizing, Escaping, and Healing from Trauma Bonds.

1432
01:13:12,160 --> 01:13:15,559
Speaker 3: You can get it on Amazon of course, Barnes Noble.

1433
01:13:16,320 --> 01:13:19,360
Speaker 3: You can get the ebook on Amazon, and you can

1434
01:13:19,400 --> 01:13:23,680
Speaker 3: get the audiobook on Spotify, Apple, and Google. And you

1435
01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:27,440
Speaker 3: can find me at the Real Doctrin eighteen on Instagram,

1436
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:31,200
Speaker 3: and I am on TikTok, Crazy Place, the Wild Web

1437
01:13:33,439 --> 01:13:37,559
Speaker 3: docter na na E l m f T and also

1438
01:13:37,960 --> 01:13:40,879
Speaker 3: on my website doctor Nay dot com. I have tons

1439
01:13:40,880 --> 01:13:44,360
Speaker 3: of free resources assessments right.

1440
01:13:44,360 --> 01:13:47,880
Speaker 6: I don't know if your ladies took any assessments.

1441
01:13:47,000 --> 01:13:51,240
Speaker 5: Not yet about I'm going to do at.

1442
01:13:51,040 --> 01:13:53,200
Speaker 2: Like ten on that amazing.

1443
01:13:54,320 --> 01:13:57,600
Speaker 11: So yeah, and I pretty much answer all my direct messages.

1444
01:13:59,000 --> 01:14:01,920
Speaker 11: So yeah, reach out, say hi, owe me a question.

1445
01:14:02,479 --> 01:14:06,479
Speaker 11: I am determined to stop.

1446
01:14:06,840 --> 01:14:11,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much for being here today. This

1447
01:14:11,479 --> 01:14:14,519
Speaker 1: is such an interesting conversation and I know it's going.

1448
01:14:14,439 --> 01:14:19,080
Speaker 2: To help you. Yeah, Megan, Yes, I would love to

1449
01:14:19,200 --> 01:14:22,400
Speaker 2: know have you experienced and I'm sure we've talked about

1450
01:14:22,400 --> 01:14:25,759
Speaker 2: this before, but have you experienced trauma bonds in your life?

1451
01:14:25,880 --> 01:14:26,160
Speaker 3: Hell?

1452
01:14:26,400 --> 01:14:30,720
Speaker 1: Yes, and it is so crazy to finally understand a

1453
01:14:30,760 --> 01:14:34,200
Speaker 1: little bit more about what they are, why they're happening.

1454
01:14:34,520 --> 01:14:38,280
Speaker 1: That statistic with animals really helped put it into perspective

1455
01:14:38,360 --> 01:14:43,080
Speaker 1: for me, Like this isn't my quote unquote fault, but yes,

1456
01:14:43,560 --> 01:14:46,599
Speaker 1: I mean you could say it's been a.

1457
01:14:46,560 --> 01:14:50,080
Speaker 4: Dominant force and a lot of my relationships in my life, so.

1458
01:14:50,080 --> 01:14:53,479
Speaker 2: You tell a lot of them. Sure, do you feel

1459
01:14:53,760 --> 01:14:57,880
Speaker 2: that you are getting better at detecting those green flags

1460
01:14:57,960 --> 01:15:00,200
Speaker 2: and kind of learning what the signs of something being

1461
01:15:00,240 --> 01:15:01,719
Speaker 2: healthy or that's.

1462
01:15:01,520 --> 01:15:04,439
Speaker 4: A great question in theory. Yeah, I've read the book.

1463
01:15:07,200 --> 01:15:09,880
Speaker 4: I talked to her in person, I asked her every

1464
01:15:09,960 --> 01:15:10,479
Speaker 4: question I.

1465
01:15:10,479 --> 01:15:13,760
Speaker 1: Had, and I'm not really I'm not dating right now,

1466
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:16,200
Speaker 1: so like I don't, I'm not putting any of it

1467
01:15:16,240 --> 01:15:20,760
Speaker 1: into practice, which is an entirely different thing altogether. But

1468
01:15:21,000 --> 01:15:27,280
Speaker 1: hopefully once I do again, i'll know some goal posts.

1469
01:15:27,600 --> 01:15:30,320
Speaker 1: As I've said many times before on the podcast, I

1470
01:15:30,360 --> 01:15:33,439
Speaker 1: am avoiding anyone charismatic at all costs.

1471
01:15:33,840 --> 01:15:38,559
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and any intensity at all, just just true

1472
01:15:39,200 --> 01:15:39,800
Speaker 2: as fun.

1473
01:15:40,040 --> 01:15:45,559
Speaker 1: I want somebody so boring, So that's my new That's

1474
01:15:45,640 --> 01:15:48,120
Speaker 1: what I'm looking for when I date.

1475
01:15:48,240 --> 01:15:50,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, what about you love you experienced a drama bond.

1476
01:15:50,960 --> 01:15:51,679
Speaker 5: Yeah, I have.

1477
01:15:51,800 --> 01:15:56,639
Speaker 2: I definitely have, and I think I am well, I'm

1478
01:15:56,640 --> 01:15:59,720
Speaker 2: in a healthy relationship now, and I think I definitely

1479
01:15:59,840 --> 01:16:02,680
Speaker 2: learned earned from some of those mistakes over time and

1480
01:16:02,720 --> 01:16:06,960
Speaker 2: looking for and sort of learned to look for different

1481
01:16:06,960 --> 01:16:11,599
Speaker 2: feelings than those excited, passionate, like explosion unearned intimacy ones,

1482
01:16:11,640 --> 01:16:15,479
Speaker 2: because it's a very intoxicating when they're happening. But over time,

1483
01:16:15,680 --> 01:16:18,280
Speaker 2: because every time I had experienced that it had gone

1484
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:22,400
Speaker 2: terribly wrong, I started to actually crave a different feeling.

1485
01:16:22,560 --> 01:16:24,400
Speaker 2: It didn't I didn't even have to work at it anymore,

1486
01:16:24,400 --> 01:16:26,400
Speaker 2: and I was more like, oh this is this feels

1487
01:16:26,439 --> 01:16:29,200
Speaker 2: peaceful and this feels healthy, and that's what I'm drawn

1488
01:16:29,280 --> 01:16:32,000
Speaker 2: to now. But it took learning that lesson, like, you know,

1489
01:16:32,120 --> 01:16:36,960
Speaker 2: kind of repeatedly for for it to really like sink

1490
01:16:37,040 --> 01:16:38,160
Speaker 2: into my bones, you know.

1491
01:16:38,360 --> 01:16:41,400
Speaker 1: And but yeah, I like what from our guests doctor

1492
01:16:41,439 --> 01:16:44,280
Speaker 1: Amani's side, where she was like, if you''re ending a relationship,

1493
01:16:44,280 --> 01:16:47,200
Speaker 1: it's to really normal to feel really sad and depressed

1494
01:16:47,280 --> 01:16:51,120
Speaker 1: and whatever, but you shouldn't feel like you're dying, like

1495
01:16:51,160 --> 01:16:53,920
Speaker 1: you're missing like all of these things that kind of

1496
01:16:54,000 --> 01:16:57,000
Speaker 1: unhealthy relationships have.

1497
01:16:57,160 --> 01:16:57,920
Speaker 4: I mean, maybe you.

1498
01:16:57,840 --> 01:16:59,360
Speaker 1: Could feel like you're dying for a couple of weeks,

1499
01:16:59,360 --> 01:17:01,880
Speaker 1: but if it's like months and years of like that,

1500
01:17:01,920 --> 01:17:04,599
Speaker 1: you've probably kind of been hijacked a little bit.

1501
01:17:04,800 --> 01:17:07,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like it's one thing to know intellectually

1502
01:17:07,400 --> 01:17:09,679
Speaker 2: what to look for, and it's a whole other thing

1503
01:17:09,760 --> 01:17:13,240
Speaker 2: to like actually feel attracted and drawn to a healthy

1504
01:17:13,320 --> 01:17:16,360
Speaker 2: person because I would know it intellectually, but I would

1505
01:17:16,400 --> 01:17:19,960
Speaker 2: still feel the intensity of the connection, and I'd still

1506
01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:23,200
Speaker 2: want the like intense one and that like that's what

1507
01:17:23,240 --> 01:17:26,599
Speaker 2: my body would crave versus like Finally, I think there

1508
01:17:26,640 --> 01:17:28,800
Speaker 2: was a point where I was like, bro, that is

1509
01:17:29,040 --> 01:17:31,439
Speaker 2: has not been working out too well for you. It

1510
01:17:31,600 --> 01:17:33,920
Speaker 2: only leads to pain. And now I just want to

1511
01:17:33,920 --> 01:17:37,960
Speaker 2: feel safe and like respected and like cared for, you know,

1512
01:17:38,040 --> 01:17:38,639
Speaker 2: I love that.

1513
01:17:39,080 --> 01:17:41,320
Speaker 1: I was talking to one of my guy friends last

1514
01:17:41,320 --> 01:17:43,160
Speaker 1: week and he was like, yeah, I dated a girl

1515
01:17:43,200 --> 01:17:46,280
Speaker 1: in college who was pretty crazy, and so I just

1516
01:17:46,360 --> 01:17:49,200
Speaker 1: learned my lesson and now I have a really lovely

1517
01:17:49,240 --> 01:17:51,559
Speaker 1: girlfriend and I've just dated, you know, people that are

1518
01:17:51,880 --> 01:17:52,640
Speaker 1: like regulate me.

1519
01:17:52,640 --> 01:17:55,040
Speaker 4: And I was like, you, you learned your lesson.

1520
01:17:54,720 --> 01:17:59,599
Speaker 1: After one person that is crazy, like that is wild

1521
01:18:00,280 --> 01:18:03,680
Speaker 1: and impressive, very impressive, Nadine, thank you so much for

1522
01:18:03,680 --> 01:18:04,320
Speaker 1: speaking to us.

1523
01:18:04,400 --> 01:18:07,759
Speaker 4: Thank you everyone who listened to us. Leave us five stars.

1524
01:18:07,760 --> 01:18:12,040
Speaker 1: If you feel so kind, please please come back next

1525
01:18:12,080 --> 01:18:13,560
Speaker 1: week and as always.

1526
01:18:13,439 --> 01:18:15,839
Speaker 4: Remember to follow your gut, watch up for red Blacks

1527
01:18:16,120 --> 01:18:18,679
Speaker 4: and never ever trust me.

1528
01:18:19,000 --> 01:18:19,680
Speaker 3: Hie ye.

1529
01:18:23,920 --> 01:18:26,599
Speaker 2: Trust Me is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and

1530
01:18:26,640 --> 01:18:27,960
Speaker 2: Steve Delemator.

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01:18:27,600 --> 01:18:29,600
Speaker 1: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

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01:18:29,439 --> 01:18:31,880
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

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01:18:32,120 --> 01:18:34,960
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1534
01:18:35,160 --> 01:18:38,519
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

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01:18:38,600 --> 01:18:40,240
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

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01:18:40,400 --> 01:18:43,720
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

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01:18:43,479 --> 01:18:47,160
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

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01:18:47,240 --> 01:18:48,280
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

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01:18:48,439 --> 01:18:50,759
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word