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Speaker 1: Conversations on life, style, beauty, and relationships. It's The Velvet's

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Speaker 1: Edge Podcast with Kelly Henderson.

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Speaker 2: Doctor James Kimmel is a Yale psychiatry lecturer, lawyer, and author.

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Speaker 2: He is here today to talk about his new book,

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Speaker 2: The Science of Revenge, which reveals how revenge operates like

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Speaker 2: an addiction in the brain and how we can break

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Speaker 2: free from its grip. Hi, Doctor kim Well, thank you

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Speaker 2: so much for being here.

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Speaker 3: Kelly, thanks for having me on your show. Really really

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Speaker 3: appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: I was telling you before the podcast, I'm so excited

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Speaker 2: to talk about this topic and just your book in general.

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Speaker 2: I think is coming out at the perfect time in

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Speaker 2: our culture because we really can see how people are

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Speaker 2: operating from such an angry, vengeful place all over the place,

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Speaker 2: like social media, it's everywhere. I feel like I open

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Speaker 2: up my Instagram and I'm seeing exactly what you are

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Speaker 2: talking about constantly. Are you finding that, oh.

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Speaker 3: In every way, shape and form. It seems like it's

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Speaker 3: a national and individual, community, family, workplace, everywhere problem that

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Speaker 3: is just reaching, you know, boiling levels.

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Speaker 4: So it's unfortunate that my you know that my book.

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Speaker 3: Has come out at this time, but great in the

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Speaker 3: sense that maybe it can help a lot of people.

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Speaker 3: It's good to have a problem to solve, and we

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Speaker 3: finally have some really solid mechanisms for helping tamp this down.

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Speaker 2: Let's get into that because I love to give the

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Speaker 2: listeners tangible tools, and so we will get to all

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Speaker 2: of that as you guys keep listening. But you, I know,

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Speaker 2: how to deeply personal experience with revenge that really kind

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Speaker 2: of shaped your life path. And then you did become

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Speaker 2: a lawyer, which is almost like living out revenge in

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Speaker 2: a legal way.

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Speaker 5: Or productive way.

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Speaker 2: So can you tell us a little bit about that story.

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Speaker 3: Not sure about the productive part we get into that, Okay,

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Speaker 3: get we can get.

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Speaker 4: Very much into that.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, so this starts with you know, I was

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Speaker 3: raised on a farm in central Pennsylvania that my folks

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Speaker 3: moved me and my brother too when I was about

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Speaker 3: twelve years old. You know, I wasn't born there then.

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Speaker 3: My great grandfather's farm, and he and my dad actually

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Speaker 3: were insurance agents.

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Speaker 4: Not farmers.

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Speaker 3: Even though we had you know, we had a small

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Speaker 3: herd of black angus cattle and some pigs and chickens

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Speaker 3: and things like that, so we had a functional farm,

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Speaker 3: but it wasn't a farm that we made our living from.

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Speaker 3: And when I moved there, you know, this was a

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Speaker 3: great place to be a boy, and I really wanted

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Speaker 3: to befriend the kids around my farm, who many of

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Speaker 3: them were living on, working big dairy farms with you know,

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Speaker 3: hundreds of milk cows, and you know, they their folks

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Speaker 3: made the living from the land, and so they were

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Speaker 3: real authentic farm kids, and I just wanted to be one.

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Speaker 3: And soon after I hit the ground there, I kind

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Speaker 3: of thought I'd love to be a farmer for the

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Speaker 3: rest of my life. I mean, that was my aspiration.

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Speaker 3: So I reached out to these guys, but they weren't

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Speaker 3: having it. They viewed me and us as outsiders, and

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Speaker 3: and I could understand why, I mean we were. We

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Speaker 3: were different in that in that sense, maybe socioeconomically, maybe

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Speaker 3: just because we you know, hadn't hadn't I hadn't grown

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Speaker 3: up there as a baby from that moment forward, And

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Speaker 3: so they shunned me for a while. And when I

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Speaker 3: wouldn't be deterred, I like joined former Future Farmers of America,

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Speaker 3: and you know, I built my own hay wagon and

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Speaker 3: I went to farm shows and just had the best time,

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Speaker 3: but when they're shunning wouldn't deter me. They started bullying me.

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Speaker 3: And you know, it started with you know, just a

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Speaker 3: lot of mean words and things like that, and as

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Speaker 3: we got older, it progressed into forms of violence. You know,

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Speaker 3: light stuff at first, just you know, shoves and pushes

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Speaker 3: and things like that, and then it went on to

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Speaker 3: kicking and punching in the hallways once in a while

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Speaker 3: and things like that. This was in the early eighties,

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Speaker 3: and so you know, there were no anti bullying programs

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Speaker 3: in my school, and you just kind of were supposed.

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Speaker 4: To deal with it. Well.

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Speaker 3: One night, my family and I, you know, we were

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Speaker 3: asleep is very late at night, and we were awakened

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Speaker 3: to the sound of a gunshot. This was a I

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Speaker 3: was probably about sixteen or seventeen years old now. We

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Speaker 3: rushed to the windows to see what was going on,

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Speaker 3: and I saw a pickup truck speeding away, and it

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Speaker 3: was a truck owned by one of the guys that

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Speaker 3: had been harassing me.

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Speaker 4: We looked around the house to see if.

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Speaker 3: There were any bullet holes or anything like any damage,

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Speaker 3: and there wasn't and we went back to bed. Eventually,

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Speaker 3: the next morning, one of my jobs before going to

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Speaker 3: school was to take care of those cows and pigs

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Speaker 3: and a hunting dog that we kept, a really sweet

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Speaker 3: beagle named Paula. And when I went to her pen,

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Speaker 3: I found her lying dead with a bullet hole in

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Speaker 3: her head in a pool of blood.

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Speaker 5: Good. That had to be very traumatic.

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Speaker 4: It was.

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Speaker 3: It is even I've probably peded that story a lot

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Speaker 3: here recently, and it doesn't get easier with any of

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Speaker 3: the retellings of it. And it was hard to see.

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Speaker 3: It was hard to kind of imagine that they would

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Speaker 3: have been driven to this point, and it was also

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Speaker 3: hard to, you know, picture that you know, I was

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Speaker 3: in some way responsible for her death because they were

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Speaker 3: obviously trying to target me through my dog.

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Speaker 4: So it was it was tough. My folks were upset.

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Speaker 3: They called the police, you know, they came, took a report,

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Speaker 3: but you know, this was the early eighties. State police

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Speaker 3: cover big areas in rural country, so they you know,

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Speaker 3: they felt bad and said, if it gets worse, let

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Speaker 3: us know. It's on record, but there's nothing that they

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Speaker 3: could do. So about two weeks later, I found myself

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Speaker 3: alone late at night. My folks had gone out somewhere

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Speaker 3: and I heard a vehicle come to a stop in

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Speaker 3: front of our house. We lived on a one lane

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Speaker 3: country road, and you know, as I was getting up

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Speaker 3: to check what was going on, there was a flash

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Speaker 3: and an explosion, and this same pickup truck took off

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Speaker 3: out of the smoke and left behind our mangled mailbox,

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Speaker 3: so they'd blown up the mailbox as well. So clearly,

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Speaker 3: you know, my strategy of kind of putting up with

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Speaker 3: things wasn't helping. It didn't seem you know, with the

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Speaker 3: with that explosion went all of what was left of

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Speaker 3: my self control. I mean, I was absolutely enraged, and

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Speaker 3: I wanted to make these guys pay, and I wanted

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Speaker 3: to balance the scales for what they had been doing

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Speaker 3: to me for these years now. So you know, we

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Speaker 3: were hunters. I'd been shooting guns since I was probably

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Speaker 3: eight years old. We had plenty of guns in the house.

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Speaker 3: And I grabbed a loaded revolver for my dad's nightstand,

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Speaker 3: jumped in my mom's car, and you know, I took

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Speaker 3: off after them through the debt of the night, driving

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Speaker 3: as fast as I could, and you know, shouting and

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Speaker 3: screaming and rage, you know, as I'm flying down the road,

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Speaker 3: and I eventually cornered them on one of their farms

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Speaker 3: against a barn, and so, you know, it's it's kind

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Speaker 3: of the scene as their pickup truck is kind of

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Speaker 3: pointed into a barn and I'm behind them with my

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Speaker 3: brake beams on, and I'm seeing you know, three or

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Speaker 3: four heads in the rear window, and they slowly climbed

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Speaker 3: out of the truck and they're squinting back through my

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Speaker 3: headlights trying to figure out who had just come flying

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Speaker 3: down their road after them. What was clear to me

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Speaker 3: at that moment was that they were unarmed. They had nothing,

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Speaker 3: you know, no weapons in their hands, and they would

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Speaker 3: have no way of knowing that I had a gun

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Speaker 3: or necessarily who I was. And it was my opportunity,

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Speaker 3: you know, to balance the scales, as I said. And

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Speaker 3: so I started to get out of the car with

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Speaker 3: the gun and you know, opened the door and put

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Speaker 3: my leg through. But then I had a kind of

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Speaker 3: an instantaneous flash of insight just for a moment, and

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Speaker 3: you know, it became clear to me that, you know,

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Speaker 3: if I went through with this, you know, I wouldn't

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Speaker 3: be just killing them, I'd be killing whoever I was

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Speaker 3: before that moment, and I'd be an all new person

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Speaker 3: on the other side of this event, and I'd have

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Speaker 3: to you know, know myself as a as a murderer.

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Speaker 3: If I survived the whole thing, or you know, didn't

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Speaker 3: get incarcerated for the rest of my life, who knows,

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Speaker 3: lots of potential bad things could happen. And that was

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Speaker 3: just enough for me to go, this is the price

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Speaker 3: of getting this revenge that I want so badly. Here

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Speaker 3: is just way more than I was willing to pay.

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Speaker 3: Right But you know, we know from too many news

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Speaker 3: reports that a lot of other people often guys go

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Speaker 3: through that zone and pull the trigger right way too often.

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Speaker 3: But in my case, very luckily, thank god, I you know,

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Speaker 3: saw that I pulled myself back in the car, I

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Speaker 3: put the gun down, I drove home that night, and

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Speaker 3: you know that changed my life, that.

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Speaker 5: Event, I can imagine.

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Speaker 2: So when you drove my next question would be because

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Speaker 2: you obviously had some insight enough to look at your

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Speaker 2: future and make a smart decision for that. And also

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Speaker 2: I would assume the feelings didn't necessarily go away. So

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Speaker 2: was that when you started to kind of realize or

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Speaker 2: I'm sure this was a later insight, But did the

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Speaker 2: revenge become a part of your life that you were

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Speaker 2: living with then and then carry over into what you're

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Speaker 2: describing now as an addiction.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, a couple of things I knew was that

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Speaker 3: I still wanted to make those guys pay. I just

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Speaker 3: didn't want to do it that way. That was pretty

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Speaker 3: clear to me. There was no moment of forgiveness there

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Speaker 3: at that time. I have since come to do that,

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Speaker 3: but not at that time, right, And you know, when

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Speaker 3: I went home, I kind of hoped that maybe this

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Speaker 3: torment and this bullying would stop, and in fact it did.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I don't have a direct explanation from

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Speaker 3: those guys as to why did. I can speculate, you know,

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Speaker 3: they might have thought it was my mom's car, or

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Speaker 3: should I say, they might have recognized that it was

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Speaker 3: my mother's car, and maybe they thought she was in it,

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Speaker 3: and maybe they thought, oh boy, we've gone too far

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Speaker 3: here and we better shut it down. You know, that

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Speaker 3: could have happened. There's any number of things that could

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Speaker 3: have gone through their head. They may have just felt

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Speaker 3: like I did, that things had gone, like I said,

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Speaker 3: really far, and you know the next step might result

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Speaker 3: in somebody getting seriously hurt and they decided to pull back.

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Speaker 3: I'm not really sure. Like I said, it's all speculation, right,

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Speaker 3: But for me going forward, the other big thing that

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Speaker 3: happened when I got back is, you know, my kind

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Speaker 3: of quest to become a farmer right And as I said,

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Speaker 3: that was my goal that ended that night. I was

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Speaker 3: it was very clear to me. I was like, this

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Speaker 3: is not going to happen for me. I'm not going

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Speaker 3: to fit in here, and I'm gonna have to redirect

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Speaker 3: my energies. And I did, and I turned them. You know,

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Speaker 3: it was pretty late in my high school career that

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Speaker 3: I turned towards academics in a serious way. I hadn't

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Speaker 3: been a very good student up to that point, but

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Speaker 3: I did like full force and started to get the

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Speaker 3: hang of it and started to like it. And eventually

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Speaker 3: I sort of thought, well, what can I do, you know,

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Speaker 3: with an academic life. And at some point I got

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Speaker 3: this idea that I, you know, maybe I could become

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Speaker 3: a lawyer, because lawyers are the people in our society

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Speaker 3: that have this special license to go ahead and you know,

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Speaker 3: kind of prescribe, manufacture and distribute revenge to the masses

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Speaker 3: under the brand name of justice. Now, that's that's a

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Speaker 3: very I didn't I didn't think of it in those

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Speaker 3: terms as a seventeen eighteen year old, but I did

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Speaker 3: have the understanding or instinct that that that type of

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Speaker 3: profession one that could get me what I wanted, which

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Speaker 3: was a less costly, more legalized way of retaliating and

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Speaker 3: in effect what I thought would be defending myself then

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Speaker 3: you know, going about it in form of street justice

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Speaker 3: and vigilantism and chasing people around with guns.

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Speaker 5: Right, So it the justice piece.

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Speaker 2: I have this in me too, and it always I

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Speaker 2: think it's so interesting because as I'm listening to your story,

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking, obviously you would be upset and that was unjust.

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Speaker 2: What was happening to you wasn't fair. It wasn't like

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Speaker 2: you asked for it or did something to merit their

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Speaker 2: actions towards you. So there is this piece when you

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Speaker 2: have the justice piece within you, that goes, but that's

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Speaker 2: not fair. So how do we fight this? And then

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Speaker 2: you go into the law world and that does seem

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Speaker 2: to me like the legal adult almost way to do it,

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Speaker 2: because you're doing it through the legal system. And I'm

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Speaker 2: just curious though, so how because you've now written this

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Speaker 2: book about revenge as an addiction. What was the moment

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Speaker 2: in your life after living through that experience and then

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Speaker 2: a full career as a lawyer that made you go,

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Speaker 2: wait a second, there's something here that I'm a little

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Speaker 2: too attached to or get curious about why revenge could

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Speaker 2: be an addiction.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a great question.

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Speaker 3: So, you know, i'd say for the next twenty years

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Speaker 3: of my life. You know, I after I became a

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Speaker 3: lawyer and I practiced law as a litigator. What I

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Speaker 3: found in doing that is that in every case, you know,

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Speaker 3: and each each step in every case, and there are

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Speaker 3: you know, hundreds or thousands of steps and then thousands

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Speaker 3: of little battles that you can win. And each time

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Speaker 3: you win one, which is to say, you're putting kind

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Speaker 3: of pain on your adversary to for, you know, with

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Speaker 3: the goal of hoping that they'll crumble or you know,

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Speaker 3: bend to your will or offer up a settlement or

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Speaker 3: drop a lawsuit.

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Speaker 4: Whatever.

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Speaker 3: You know, whichever side you're on, and I was, I

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Speaker 3: was off and on on either side, it didn't matter.

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Speaker 3: Those little battles would give me kind of a really

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Speaker 3: great feeling. Wow, a zinger, a high kind of experience.

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Speaker 3: It didn't last long, but it felt great. There was

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Speaker 3: a fair amount of pain in getting there, and those

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Speaker 3: these little highs were short lived, and then you'd want

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Speaker 3: the next one, right, You'd want it again and again

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Speaker 3: and again, and that was you know, it was okay

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Speaker 3: for a while. When I started my career, I was

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Speaker 3: a prosecutor in the Philadelphia court system, and then I

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Speaker 3: was a law clerk to a federal trial judge, so

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Speaker 3: I was I saw the criminal side of it right

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Speaker 3: in sentencing people as a law clerk and in prosecuting

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Speaker 3: as a as a as an assistant DA intern. I

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Speaker 3: was an intern there, and those wins too, felt like

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Speaker 3: I was doing something good. But to get there, I

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Speaker 3: they spent a lot of time interviewing, you know, the

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Speaker 3: victims and preparing them for the testimony that I was

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Speaker 3: going to put them through in court, and making them

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Speaker 3: relive their victimization and bringing them to tears over and

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Speaker 3: over again, and watching their pain because some of them

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Speaker 3: have been seriously grievously hurt and assaulted. And those things

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Speaker 3: just seemed really awful and they affected me deeply at

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Speaker 3: the same time, you know, watching someone be convicted of

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Speaker 3: a crime and knowing where they were headed in handcuffs,

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Speaker 3: you know, brought at first this great feeling of ooh, yes,

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Speaker 3: got this, got this guy, We're doing the right thing here,

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Speaker 3: But then kind of a feeling of I mean, you know,

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Speaker 3: I just I'm now part of this system that's grinding

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Speaker 3: people down. And and yes, they ruined their own lives,

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Speaker 3: but I'm making sure that their life is ruined. You know,

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Speaker 3: I'm at the end of that train and I'm sweeping

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Speaker 3: up the pieces and throwing them into a prison. And

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Speaker 3: so these were things that just sort of, you know,

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Speaker 3: I experienced. But as I got better and better at

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Speaker 3: being a civil litigator and winning more and more cases,

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Speaker 3: I was watching my own clients and realizing that they

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Speaker 3: were going through this same process with me. They wanted

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Speaker 3: all the little wins, they wanted the big win. They

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Speaker 3: were getting this great enormous pleasure and satisfaction from the

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Speaker 3: little wins. Sometimes it didn't even matter if we won.

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Speaker 4: The big case.

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Speaker 3: There was such joy at knowing that we had made

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Speaker 3: life for the other party and their lawyer worse that day.

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Speaker 3: Those little moments were like, Wow, that feels so great,

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Speaker 3: And it would only, like I said, it only last

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Speaker 3: a short period of time, and then you'd next day,

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Speaker 3: you'd wake up and try and do it all again,

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Speaker 3: over and over again. And that started to bleed into

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Speaker 3: even my personal life. So I became kind of anger

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Speaker 3: and avenger extraordinary in my home life with my wife

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Speaker 3: and my kids, with relatives, with neighbors, with people I

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Speaker 3: met that you got on the wrong side of me

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Speaker 3: or did something wrong, it would be.

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Speaker 4: Like I became.

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Speaker 3: I became a legal bully, kind of like the guys

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Speaker 3: who had been bullying me when I was in high school.

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Speaker 3: But now I wore a suit and a briefcase that

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Speaker 3: was kind of about the only and carried a briefcase,

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Speaker 3: and that was about.

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Speaker 4: The only difference.

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Speaker 3: And that sort of realization sunk me pretty deep, to

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Speaker 3: the point that I found myself one night alone in

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Speaker 3: a spare room kind of contemplating suicide. I couldn't figure

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Speaker 3: out a way.

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Speaker 4: Out of it.

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Speaker 3: I tried to cut back. I left law firms, I

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Speaker 3: went to smaller firms. I formed my own firm, trying

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Speaker 3: to kind of wean myself off of this, and I

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Speaker 3: couldn't get myself off of it. No matter what I

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Speaker 3: did or what I tried, I kept coming back to it.

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Speaker 3: It was lucrative, It made me feel good. My clients

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Speaker 3: were wanting me back, They always wanted more of this stuff,

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Speaker 3: and it began to make me wonder, is this an addiction?

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Speaker 3: Is just as seeking in the form of revenge, can

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Speaker 3: that become addictive? And am I hooked on it? Because

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Speaker 3: I really was beginning to be convinced.

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Speaker 2: I was, Okay, well, let's talk about that then, because,

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Speaker 2: like we said, the book is called The Science of Revenge,

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Speaker 2: and you say that revenge operates like an addiction in

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Speaker 2: the brain.

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Speaker 5: We talk about addiction a lot on this podcast.

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Speaker 2: We've had a multiple twelve step recovery type people on

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Speaker 2: the podcast or therapist, and so my listeners are very

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Speaker 2: familiar with addiction to drugs, alcohol, sex, relationships, whatever it is.

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Speaker 2: I've never heard it discussed in the context of revenge,

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Speaker 2: but it's all happening in the brains. I'm very curious

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Speaker 2: if you could break down what is hoppen opening neurologically

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Speaker 2: when someone's stuck in this cycle of just the grievance.

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Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, I'd be happy to do that. And so

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Speaker 3: my third phase of my life, my first phase was,

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Speaker 3: you know, as a kid to twenty and from twenty

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Speaker 3: to forty, I was a lawyer. Right from forty to

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Speaker 3: I'm now sixty sixty one that phase, I left the

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Speaker 3: law almost entirely. I'm still a lawyer, but I decided

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Speaker 3: to commit myself to studying this, and I eventually was

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Speaker 3: able to get invited to become a researcher and a

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Speaker 3: lecturer at the Yale School of Medicine.

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Speaker 4: To study this.

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Speaker 3: And the reason that that was able to happen is

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Speaker 3: about the same time that I was theorizing this idea

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Speaker 3: that I must I must be addicted, and all of

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Speaker 3: the people around me seemed addicted, right the other lawyers,

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Speaker 3: their clients, the whole courts is, I know, just one

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Speaker 3: after another. Neuroscientists at universities around the world where just

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Speaker 3: beginning at that same time to put people in brain

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Speaker 3: scanners fMRI machines and pet scans and study and look

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Speaker 3: at what's happening inside your brain when you have a

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Speaker 3: grievance or you feel that you've been victimized and experienced

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Speaker 3: in an injustice and start to desire to retaliate to

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Speaker 3: punish the person who wronged you. And so here's how

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Speaker 3: it works. Here's what happens. It's absolutely fascinating. So grievances

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Speaker 3: are really defined as a real or an imagined perception

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Speaker 3: of having been wronged, mistreated, betrayed, disrespected, treated, unjustly victimized

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Speaker 3: in any way. That's primarily psychological pain there, and those

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Speaker 3: psychological pains actually register in your brain inside your brain,

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Speaker 3: in the brain's pain network, which is called the anterior insula.

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Speaker 3: That's like the primary component of that network. So when

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Speaker 3: you experience a perception of pain, your anterior insula it activates,

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Speaker 3: and that's been shown on many, many, many brain studies.

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Speaker 3: And what that triggers then is this the brain doesn't

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Speaker 3: like pain, it doesn't want pain, and it wants to

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Speaker 3: rebalance the pain with pleasure.

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Speaker 4: And we've evolved as.

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Speaker 3: Humans to derive enormous pleasure from hurting the people who

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Speaker 3: hurt us, which is to say, getting revenge. And I

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Speaker 3: could get into, you know, maybe separately if you want,

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Speaker 3: or later on how we might have evolved to do that,

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Speaker 3: but for now, just accept the fact that we all

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Speaker 3: feel the desire for revenge when we've been hurt or

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Speaker 3: wronged by someone, and that's been observed in studies in

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Speaker 3: all societies around the world. It's a very universal experience.

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Speaker 3: It's not just unique to any one individual. We all

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Speaker 3: sort of feel this desire to want to hurt the

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Speaker 3: people who hurt us, and so what occurs inside your

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00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,600
Speaker 3: brain at that point is to rebalance that pain with

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Speaker 3: and get a hold of that revenge pleasure. The brain

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Speaker 3: activates the pleasure and reward circuitry of addiction. And you

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Speaker 3: know your listeners and you might be familiar with this.

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Speaker 3: So that is the neural circuitry of the nucleus incumbents

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Speaker 3: and the dorsal stratum. These are the pleasure and reward

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Speaker 3: areas of the brain, and they activate as you begin

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Speaker 3: to fantasize about retaliating or punishing the person who wronged you.

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Speaker 3: And if you go and move on from the fantasy

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Speaker 3: world inside your head into acting out, you know, punitive

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Speaker 3: acts in real life, you experience a dopamine rush. Your

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Speaker 3: brain surges dopamine, and then that dopamine disappears, and that

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Speaker 3: disappearance gives us that experience that's thought of craving.

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Speaker 4: So we begin to crave.

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Speaker 3: Revenge or justice in the former avenge, retaliation, punishment, whatever

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Speaker 3: you want to call it, it's all the same thing.

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Speaker 3: And so we're looking, we start craving that in the

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Speaker 3: same way that somebody who has a substance addiction would begin,

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Speaker 3: you know, craving their drug of choice by seeing a

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Speaker 3: place where they often take it, or friends who they

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Speaker 3: take it with, or circumstances or stressors in their lives

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Speaker 3: that often trigger this desire. So the grievance triggers the

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Speaker 3: desire and the craving for revenge. The brain responds with

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Speaker 3: that by giving you that craving, which is motivation to

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Speaker 3: go and get your drug of choice. And in this case,

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Speaker 3: the drug of choice is revenge. And the only way

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Speaker 3: you can gratify your craving is by hurting other people.

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Speaker 3: You've got to hurt the other person who wronged you

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Speaker 3: or their proxy. And that's a common misconception that revenge

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Speaker 3: is only happening when you hurt the person who wronged you.

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Speaker 4: It's not.

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Speaker 3: You can and it's very common for humans to seek

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Speaker 3: revenge against all sorts of people that aren't the person

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Speaker 3: who actually rolled them for any number of reasons, and

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Speaker 3: we call that revenge by proxy or some people at

437
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 3: displaced revenge. But the common example is, if let's say

438
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 3: you're mistreated at work. You know, your boss gives you

439
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 3: a hard time and you think it's unjust. You can't

440
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 3: retaliate against your boss without losing your job, so you

441
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 3: go home and you pick a fight with your intimate

442
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 3: partner or maybe you you know, quote unquote kick the dog.

443
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,959
Speaker 3: That's revenge by proxy. And you wanted revenge against your boss,

444
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 3: it's not safe to get it, so you're going to

445
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 3: get it against somebody who you can get it against,

446
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 3: and he's either going to be either more patient or

447
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,400
Speaker 3: can't defend themselves.

448
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 2: It's almost like just the projection of those emotions onto

449
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 2: other people.

450
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 3: Kind of, you know. And some psychologists will say that

451
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 3: is displaced revenge seeking. But I'm very reluctant to use

452
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 3: that terminology because I because it assumes then that revenge

453
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,199
Speaker 3: has a proper place, and you've just misplaced it on

454
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 3: somebody else. And I think it's pretty clear revenge does

455
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 3: not have a proper place. There's no proper place to

456
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 3: wrong somebody, and particularly somebody who wasn't it had nothing

457
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 3: even to do with your pain. So I don't kind

458
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 3: of I'm not really in favor of that saying yeah, yeah, right,

459
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:13,959
Speaker 3: So I'm sorry. So the last step of this is

460
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 3: so up to this point. As I said, if we all,

461
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 3: if we've evolved to want revenge when we're wrong, then

462
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 3: how could that possibly be something that's bad for us?

463
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,479
Speaker 3: The evolution gave it to us for a reason. And

464
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,160
Speaker 3: so when it moves the way that it moves from

465
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 3: let's say, adaptive revenge seeking, which might have begun, you know,

466
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 3: in the Ice age or before when people were living

467
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 3: to get start, just started living together in societies and

468
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 3: needed a way to get everybody to comply with the

469
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 3: same set of rules and stop people from stealing their

470
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,119
Speaker 3: food or their mate or whatever. But now here in

471
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 3: modern society it moves to that pathological sort of state

472
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 3: when you can't control it despite the negative consequences. And

473
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 3: that's the classic definition of addiction. Addiction is, you know,

474
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 3: being unable to resist a desire or a behavior despite

475
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 3: the negative consequences. And this is happening with revenge seeking.

476
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 4: All the time.

477
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,719
Speaker 3: Almost always there are you know, negative and sometimes severely

478
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 3: negative consequences to revenge behavior. You're at a minimum, you're

479
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 3: always by definition, you're hurting someone, and that's the definition

480
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:34,120
Speaker 3: of a negative consequence. You're always hurting someone and you're

481
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 3: often hurting yourself. Even though you get this early dopamine rush,

482
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 3: it's very short lived, and you end up feeling usually

483
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 3: worse for going and getting the revenge than you felt beforehand. Yes,

484
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 3: you felt the pain of the grievance, but now you

485
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 3: have the pain of the grievance, and on top of it,

486
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 3: you have enhanced anger, perhaps potentially guilt, potentially anxiety and

487
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 3: fear over now what's going to come back at you

488
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 3: because your active of just just as seeking in the

489
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 3: form of revenge, is another person's active or reception of victimization,

490
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 3: and now they're going to want revenge against you, and

491
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 3: we get these revenge cycles. So this is how revenge

492
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 3: actually is correctly perceived to be an addictive brain biological process.

493
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 3: It travels in the same circuitry, the behaviors are the same.

494
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,880
Speaker 3: We're doing it despite the negative consequences. It's very compulsive,

495
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 3: and when we get it, we feel, you know, satisfied

496
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 3: at least for a while, but then we want to

497
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,159
Speaker 3: do it again, and some people want to do it

498
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 3: again and again and again, and if you can't control it,

499
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 3: and we see it escalating usually as well, just like

500
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 3: drugs go from you know, maybe cigarettes all the way

501
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 3: up through heroin, you know, eventually, And that's sort of

502
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 3: the way vengeful behavior and violence works. It starts with

503
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 3: non violent forms of behavior and then slowly creeps up

504
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 3: to you know, a simple assault, and then maybe it's

505
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 3: an aggrivated assault, and then maybe you're pulling a gun.

506
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 3: I mean, it could just be anywhere all on that range.

507
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 2: I'm just so glad that you're talking about something like

508
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 2: this that I think a lot of people listening might

509
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 2: relate to on the day to day, you know. I

510
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 2: think this is a very normal human feeling that we

511
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 2: don't really talk about, which is really interesting. As you

512
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 2: were talking about it, I was thinking, I don't really

513
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 2: discuss this with that many people, but I do find

514
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 2: that our culture has tended to look at addictions or

515
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 2: addicts as less than or messed up, you know, or

516
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 2: they just can't get it together. And the more I've

517
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 2: learned about addiction, the more I see it in every

518
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 2: single one of us. We just have different drugs of choice.

519
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 2: What I'm hearing in this is very much revenge as

520
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 2: a drug of choice, and it sounds exactly the same

521
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 2: as what a drug addict I think would say about

522
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 2: their actual drug of choice. It's the hit, it's the

523
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 2: chasing it. It's the high we look for, that's the

524
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 2: mediate high. But then it eventually goes away. Is you

525
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 2: have to chase another high? Like it's all the same, right.

526
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 3: It really does seem to be the same. It seems

527
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 3: to be the same behaviorally, you know, when you just

528
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 3: look at someone and how they're behaving, and then I mean,

529
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 3: what you know, the new thing is about this research

530
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 3: is now we can see that the brain looks the same,

531
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 3: so that your brain on you know, your brain on

532
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 3: revenge looks like your brain on drugs. It's kind of

533
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 3: it's doing the same thing in the same circuitry. And

534
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 3: as you said, it may be a different choice, but

535
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 3: we I'm sorry, a different drug of choice. But we

536
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 3: also find you know, there's this idea of vulnerability to

537
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 3: addictions of all sorts. Yes, And you know you often

538
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 3: will find violence traveling with drug addiction, right, I mean

539
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 3: not necessarily all users, but a lot of the dealers. Right,

540
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 3: there's a lot of violence that's involved in it. And

541
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 3: I don't think it's a coincidence that there's a fair

542
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 3: amount of violence that's sort of built into that system,

543
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 3: because you know, people who maybe users and strongly addicted

544
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 3: to a narcotic might also be vulnerable to retaliatory behavior

545
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 3: as well.

546
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 2: Right, and you probably can't logic your way out of it.

547
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 2: Are the more drug that's involved, I would imagine, makes

548
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 2: it harder to kind of talk yourself down emotionally or

549
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 2: you're not just not thinking clearly. So if it's such

550
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 2: an addictive type of energy, how do we know the

551
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 2: difference between like standing up for ourselves and getting stuck

552
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 2: on the revenge loop?

553
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's an excellent question, and we know it this way.

554
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 3: We know it by thinking about the arrow of time

555
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 3: and what revenge means and what self defense means. Okay,

556
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 3: so revenge and self defense are two very different things.

557
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 3: Revenge seeking is always trying to punish someone for something

558
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 3: that they've done in the past. Okay, it happened in

559
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 3: the past. You can no longer experience it at all

560
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 3: with your senses. It might have been minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years,

561
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 3: or decades ago. Some people carry grievances literally for decades.

562
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 3: I mean, as matter of fact, you know, I think

563
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 3: therapists who you know, start working with people and start

564
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 3: with their childhood, can remember grievances that have happened when

565
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 3: they were very very young, and there they may be,

566
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 3: you know, middle aged and older adults, and they still

567
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 3: remember it, it still hurts, and they might still be

568
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 3: wanting some form of punishment to happen to the person

569
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 3: who roamed them. So our memories are very powerful and

570
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 3: of course, and they can they can really contaminate and

571
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 3: ruin our present and our future. So revenge seeking is

572
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 3: always this punishing people for realms of the past. Self defense,

573
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 3: by contrast, is always present and future looking, and it's

574
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 3: it's involved, and it's a whole different circuitry in the

575
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 3: brain as well, because you're now talking about the fight

576
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 3: and flight instinct. And in that case, right, you're dealing

577
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 3: with a present threat of imminent, you know, potentially serious

578
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 3: harm to yourself or somebody you care about. And so

579
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 3: your def you know, defending yourself either by fleeing or

580
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 3: by you know, using force, if that's all that you

581
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 3: have left to do, uh is an act of self defense.

582
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 4: And and and.

583
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 3: The law is built this way, so you know, there's

584
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 3: a defense to even you know, homicide if you were

585
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 3: acting in pure self defense, because the person that you've killed,

586
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 3: was threatening your life and able to you know, carry

587
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 3: out their threat, whereas with revenge there is no defense.

588
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 3: I mean, everybody that's in jail for a violent crime

589
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 3: almost universally was seeking revenge and none of them are

590
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 3: able to invoke. Oh, I was just seeking revenge, so

591
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 3: it must be okay. That's not okay, and it won't

592
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 3: be okay. So there's a very big, bright line between

593
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 3: these two behaviors.

594
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 4: Does that help out?

595
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 2: That totally makes sense to me. Whenever we were talking

596
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 2: about threat earlier, you said it could be perceived or real. Yeah,

597
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 2: So like, how often is that happening where people are

598
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 2: perceiving someone's actions as a fault to them and then

599
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 2: going into this revenge loot because of the perceived threat,

600
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 2: And like, why is that happening?

601
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 5: What's happening in our brain that makes that happen?

602
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, So the perception of being wronged is a really

603
00:33:55,520 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 3: fascinating area of this research that hasn't been significantly explored

604
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 3: yet in terms of its ability to launch the revenge desire,

605
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 3: but we have just almost an infinite number of examples

606
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 3: of it from human history. One that's very recent that

607
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 3: we can all think of is like the you know,

608
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:21,280
Speaker 3: the twenty twenty election. Yeah, so you know, President Trump

609
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 3: perceived that the Democrats had stolen the election and this

610
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 3: was a personal grievance and his followers felt this way

611
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 3: as well. But there's never been any solid evidence that

612
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:37,280
Speaker 3: that happened. And so you get this perception of somebody

613
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:41,839
Speaker 3: doing something really bad and really dirty that's kind of

614
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 3: detached from whether it happened or not, and it just

615
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 3: doesn't matter because in our minds, once we feel that

616
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 3: we're victimized, whether it's true.

617
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 4: Or not matters not at all. Well.

618
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 3: Similarly, an extreme example is like Hitler after World War One.

619
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 3: Hitler imagined and actually the whole German people were, you know,

620
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 3: there was a group of politicians and military leaders who

621
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 3: wanted to convince the German people after World War One,

622
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 3: that the reason that Germany agreed to the armistice and

623
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 3: ultimately the Treaty of Versailles, because they they betrayed Germany.

624
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 3: They sold Germany down the river. It was a terrible

625
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 3: act of betrayal and treason, and it is that reason

626
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 3: that Hitler rose to power and ended up launching World

627
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 3: War Two.

628
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,240
Speaker 4: But when we go back and look at the evidence none.

629
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:37,800
Speaker 3: Of that occurred.

630
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 4: Jews didn't do anything.

631
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:45,320
Speaker 3: Politicians, the military leaders, the two highest German military leaders,

632
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 3: agreed to the armistice because they thought it was the

633
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 3: best thing that they could get because they were losing

634
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 3: the war, and so they got some politicians to kind

635
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 3: of sign the documents without them actually doing it, and

636
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 3: they escaped from that type of scrutiny, and that led

637
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 3: to an entire world war. So those are extreme examples,

638
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 3: but in our daily lives, this is happening. You know,

639
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 3: all of the time we think that someone and I'm

640
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 3: sure you can you can think of tons of examples

641
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 3: in your own life in which you know, you think

642
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 3: that somebody said something to you that was intended to hurt,

643
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,360
Speaker 3: you know, to insult you or hurt your feelings, and

644
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 3: you're like, wait, what did you just say? Why did

645
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 3: you do that? And then they go, oh, no, no, no, no,

646
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 3: peace man, I didn't mean that at all. But you

647
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:35,280
Speaker 3: you missed, you know, you misread it as a direct attack.

648
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,399
Speaker 3: Or you you know, you see somebody that you think

649
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 3: is you know, cut you off in traffic and maybe,

650
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 3: you know, if you had had the time to analyze

651
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 3: the whole thing and question them, they'd be like, I

652
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 3: didn't even see you, man, I'm sorry, I was just

653
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 3: trying to get to my job because I was I

654
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 3: was late. And then you might go, oh, okay, I

655
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 3: I don't feel so bad now because you had a

656
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 3: good reason for doing it. And this is happening all

657
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 3: the time in our families and in our personal lives

658
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 3: and in our workplaces. So we're we're misperceiving it sometimes

659
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 3: not always. We're often perceiving real, real, uh victimization, but

660
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 3: we're also trying to create it. If you're a revenge addict,

661
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 3: you want to create these victimization experiences so you can

662
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:27,439
Speaker 3: get that revenge high again. So you will have fine

663
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,760
Speaker 3: people in your life who are kind of always looking

664
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 3: for the reason to feel aggrieved and upset. And and

665
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 3: you know, we know these people, right and and I

666
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:39,880
Speaker 3: think I was one of them for quite a while

667
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 3: as a matter of fact, as part of my you know,

668
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 3: I consider myself a recovering revenge addict. And I think

669
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 3: during those years when I was a lawyer doing that,

670
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,839
Speaker 3: I was always looking for an opportunity to find that

671
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 3: something is unfair and then I can now retaliate against.

672
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:59,879
Speaker 3: And we just some people will create those opportunities out

673
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:05,919
Speaker 3: of thin air and misinterpret deliberately an act in order

674
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 3: to perceive it as something that was never intended to be,

675
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 3: in order to sort of trigger this involuntary victimization and

676
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 3: now retaliation response.

677
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 4: That feels very gratifying.

678
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's literally like every other addiction. I mean,

679
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 2: the more you're talking about it, it's making so much

680
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 2: sense to me because like an alcoholic. For instance, if

681
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 2: you've ever had an experience with an active alcoholic, often

682
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 2: your behavior is blamed for why they needed to go

683
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 2: get drunk, you know, And it's that same exact thing.

684
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 2: It's the perceived threat or the perceived harm or fault

685
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 2: or whatever to then be able to go act out

686
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 2: and not feel guilty about it or whatever, you know,

687
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:51,359
Speaker 2: because you have the right to do it.

688
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great insight. And I've never had anyone

689
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 3: actually bring it up to me in that way. Is that, Yeah,

690
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 3: you know, an alcohol an alcoholic will kind of aim

691
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 3: the other person you're you know, if you would just

692
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 3: you know, be different and not kind of keep provoking me,

693
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:07,320
Speaker 3: I wouldn't.

694
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 4: Be drinking all the time.

695
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 3: And it's not they're using your behavior in order to

696
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 3: create a scenario in which drinking is the perfect response,

697
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:20,879
Speaker 3: or in this case, in my case, you know, it's

698
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 3: revenge seeking is is the response, and it'll make me

699
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 3: feel better if I can just set those dominoes up

700
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 3: and then knock them down, and even though I'm self

701
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 3: creating these victimization experiences.

702
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 5: Yes, exactly.

703
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, we've talked about the problems, so I have

704
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 2: to talk about the healing a little bit. We told

705
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 2: the listeners would give them some tangible tools. So what

706
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 2: are some of the science backed strategies that you've come

707
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 2: up with, now that you call yourself even a recovering

708
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 2: revenge addict, that actually help get our brain away from

709
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 2: this vengeful thinking.

710
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 3: I usually start with the addiction strategies, which your audience

711
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 3: will know well because and I'll just briefly touch on

712
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 3: that I guess before I go on. So if you

713
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 3: think about it, if it's correct, and I believe it

714
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 3: absolutely is, there's enough evidence to show that revenge can

715
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 3: become an addicted, an addiction for people, not all people,

716
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,240
Speaker 3: but some people. It becomes a compulsion. Maybe twenty percent,

717
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 3: you know, twenty percent of the people in the world

718
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,919
Speaker 3: who try alcohol or drugs become addicted to them, which

719
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 3: means eighty percent don't. Maybe that's and it hasn't been

720
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,320
Speaker 3: studied full yet, but maybe around that number of people

721
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,320
Speaker 3: become addicted to revenge seeking an eighty percent don't, okay,

722
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:37,359
Speaker 3: But for those twenty percent who are experiencing addiction, if

723
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 3: we think of it as an addictive process, then the

724
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 3: addiction strategies that already exist for prevent addiction, prevention and

725
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 3: treatment are now available to prevent and treat revenge seeking

726
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 3: and violence. Because, you know, public health data and law

727
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 3: enforcement data show that revenge is the primary motive for

728
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 3: almost every form of violence that we are aware of,

729
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 3: everything from intimate partner violence, violence and bullying, all the

730
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 3: way up through you know, police brutality and violent extremism,

731
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 3: terrorism and warfare, I mean, the whole range. So if

732
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 3: that's the case, we can now think of addiction prevention

733
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,760
Speaker 3: and treatment strategies as a way of preventing and treating

734
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 3: violence and use that and I believe, very effectively. So

735
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 3: that can include the normal things you're probably aware of,

736
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 3: like cognitive behavioral therapy and counseling and motivational interviewing. Maybe

737
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 3: one day rehabs There are no rehabs for revenge addicts yet,

738
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 3: but maybe there will be someday, and it may include

739
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 3: anti craving drugs. Even the GLP one drugs that seem

740
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 3: to be effective for food cravings might be found to

741
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,919
Speaker 3: be effective for revenge desires. I mean, which would be

742
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 3: you know, an astonishing development hasn't been studied yet, but

743
00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 3: pretty cool stuff. Then there's the you know, public health

744
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 3: prevention sides, So just educating people about the dangers of

745
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 3: their own revenge desires, that they're natural, you're going to

746
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,879
Speaker 3: experience them, and you know, starting this in school health

747
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 3: classes right with kids, and going when you grow up,

748
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 3: there's going to be this temptation that isn't drugs or alcohol,

749
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 3: but it's as were, more dangerous, and it's called revenge seeking,

750
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 3: and you're going to maybe experience this almost every day

751
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 3: of your life because we all experience grievances all the time.

752
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:30,440
Speaker 3: Sigmund Freud believed that we, you know, experience grievances and

753
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 3: want to do a way of the people who insult

754
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:34,760
Speaker 3: us like our by hour every day of our lives.

755
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:40,359
Speaker 3: It's that prevalent, and so teaching people about this in

756
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 3: itself would help a lot of people control it and

757
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 3: seek help if they can't. But now let me switch

758
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 3: to the really cool neuroscience. To me, this is the

759
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 3: most important neuroscience discovery that I learned in all of

760
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 3: my years now in researching this, and that is what

761
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:02,400
Speaker 3: happens inside your brain when you even just imagined forgiving

762
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 3: a grievance. This is extraordinary. So what occurs then is

763
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 3: if you have a grievance and you feel victimized, just

764
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 3: the way we explained, and that pain network inside your brain,

765
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 3: the anterior insula, is activated when you just imagine forgiving Internally,

766
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 3: you don't need to tell the person who wronged you

767
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 3: that you're doing anything. You don't have to tell them

768
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 3: that they're forgiven. You just do this privately with yourself.

769
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 3: And here's what happens. The act of imagining forgiving shuts

770
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 3: down the pain network, So instead of just covering it

771
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 3: up with a temporary hit of dopamine, you're actually getting

772
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 3: by forgiveness the taking away or the stopping of the

773
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,399
Speaker 3: pain itself, which is an amazing outcome. The next thing

774
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 3: it does is it also shuts down the pleasure and

775
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 3: reward circuitry of addiction that nucleus, thecumbents en dorsal stratum,

776
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 3: those both are shut down and go silence, so you're

777
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 3: no longer nagged by this endless craving for revenge and

778
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 3: thinking about it and revenge rumination and fantasy. And then

779
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 3: the third thing that forgiveness does is it reactivates your

780
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 3: prefrontal cortex, that's your self control and executive function circuitry,

781
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:17,879
Speaker 3: to help you make good and solid and much more

782
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 3: beneficial cost benefit decisions that are in your own best interest.

783
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:26,320
Speaker 3: And it's in that format that you're able to finally

784
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,400
Speaker 3: escape from the traumas and rangs of the past because

785
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 3: you've now shut the pain down, you've shut the revenge

786
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 3: desires down, and you can see that a decision to

787
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 3: let the past be in the past where it's no

788
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 3: longer affecting your present in future is always going to

789
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 3: be your best decision for you if you want to

790
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 3: succeed in your life and have happiness, enjoy again.

791
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 5: And actually move forward.

792
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,400
Speaker 2: Yes, I think that's the lie about revenge, right, We

793
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 2: think that that is the thing that would get us

794
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,479
Speaker 2: out of the situation, when in reality it just keeps

795
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:00,399
Speaker 2: you stuck in it.

796
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's perfectly put. I mean, it's exactly is what

797
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 3: it does. It just attaches you to it and it

798
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,879
Speaker 3: keeps destroying your present and your future when you could

799
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 3: be moving on.

800
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, well I could talk about this all day.

801
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 2: This is fascinating and love I love how in line

802
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 2: it is with other addictions, because even when you're giving

803
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 2: the neuroscience to why how our brain works. I was

804
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,319
Speaker 2: thinking about in twelve step recovery day, one of the

805
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 2: tools is to pray for the person who caused you

806
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:31,400
Speaker 2: harm in one of the steps, and it is the

807
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 2: hardest thing to do. You're supposed to pray for them

808
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:35,800
Speaker 2: and to wish that they get everything that you want.

809
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 2: But exactly what you explained is why that works.

810
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 5: To let go of.

811
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 2: The revenge or the revenge seeking or whatever the grievance

812
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:44,839
Speaker 2: feeling is.

813
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a nice thing, And I think that the

814
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:52,320
Speaker 3: neuroscience is showing a couple of things. So forgiveness doesn't

815
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:55,839
Speaker 3: benefit the perpetrator. It benefits you as victim, which is

816
00:45:55,880 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 3: really great. But you don't you don't have to, like

817
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 3: I said, to get all these benefits neurologically, you don't

818
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:07,919
Speaker 3: have to you know, interact with or inform the perpetrator,

819
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 3: and you don't even have to wish them well. You

820
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 3: can start by simply going, I'm forgiving this for me today, right,

821
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 3: and then you can move on. At some point, you

822
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 3: might move on to moving from what's called decisional forgiveness

823
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 3: to a broader form of compassionate forgiveness, in which you're

824
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 3: seeing the other person in a different light and you're

825
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:33,719
Speaker 3: maybe seeing them as a human being again. And that's

826
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 3: wonderful and that is a great goal to hit. But

827
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 3: you don't have to start there, which is a big

828
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 3: ask for a lot of people.

829
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 2: I like, you're stuff better with that because adding that

830
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 2: one in it, Yeah, because it's almost I feel like

831
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,880
Speaker 2: sometimes it feels dismissive of the feelings that you're really

832
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 2: stuck on. Right then, But if you can think about

833
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 2: it from a way of I'm doing this for me

834
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 2: as an act of self care in a way, I

835
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 2: think that's an easier thing to your brain around first.

836
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 3: Right, And to help that happen, I want to make

837
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:08,240
Speaker 3: sure I leave your listeners and you with this method.

838
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 3: So one of the things that I've done at Yale

839
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 3: for the over the last fourteen years is research a

840
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 3: method that I developed called the non Justice System or

841
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,359
Speaker 3: a miracle court that kind of addresses what we were

842
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 3: just talking about there, okay, and that is this.

843
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 4: And so there's a free app.

844
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 3: It's called the Miracle Court app and it's just at

845
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 3: miraclecourt dot com.

846
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 4: There's no in app purchases.

847
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 3: Or anything, and it literally is free. But here's what

848
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:36,280
Speaker 3: it enables you to do. And the non justice system

849
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 3: is the written version of that, and it's in my

850
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:41,880
Speaker 3: book They're suing for peace. But here's what it does.

851
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 3: It enables you to put anyone who's ever wronged you

852
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 3: on trial inside a courtner of your mind where you

853
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 3: get to play all of the roles. So in this

854
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 3: role play, you play the victim prosecutor, You played the defendant,

855
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 3: testifying as the defense and it might in your own

856
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:04,279
Speaker 3: imagination about their side of the story. You play judge

857
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 3: and jury, finding guilt or innocence and handing down a

858
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 3: sentence if you want, and it can be anything you want.

859
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:15,240
Speaker 3: You play the warden imposing that sentence that you've handed down,

860
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:18,800
Speaker 3: and then in the last step, you play the judge

861
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:23,280
Speaker 3: of your own life. And in that experience, that last step,

862
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 3: you're in a new courtroom. You imagine this in which

863
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 3: you are asked to first of all, acknowledge that the

864
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 3: wrongs that happened to you are in the past. They're

865
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 3: not happening to you anymore. And that's an important realization.

866
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:38,840
Speaker 3: A lot of people sort of feel like they're in

867
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 3: forever fight in flight mode. They're always being victimized.

868
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 4: Not true.

869
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 3: It's a memory, and a memory is a thought formation,

870
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 3: and it only exists in your head. Nobody else is,

871
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 3: and you are the master of what's going on in

872
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:53,479
Speaker 3: your head. So you can start to see, oh, maybe

873
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 3: I could take control of this and not continue to

874
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 3: want to punish the other person and hurt myself in

875
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 3: the process.

876
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 5: Yeah.

877
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 3: And the last thing that that last step does is

878
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 3: it invites you to imagine forgiveness. You don't have to

879
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 3: forgive the person, It just asks. It just asks you

880
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 3: close your eyes for a minute and now imagine forgiving

881
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:18,879
Speaker 3: the person who wronged you. How would you feel. And

882
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:23,800
Speaker 3: in almost all cases, whoever's using this non justice system

883
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 3: or the miracle court will say, oh, if I imagine that

884
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 3: I actually forgave them, Wow, I would feel this burden

885
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 3: is off my shoulders. They don't have to punish them anymore.

886
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 3: In other words, they start to feel free instantaneously, and

887
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 3: they start to feel that pain is leaving them that

888
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 3: I said happens with forgiveness, and they start to feel

889
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 3: that those revenge desires are all of a sudden leaving

890
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 3: their entire mind. They're free again, and literally free of

891
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 3: the traumas of the past. So you can experience that

892
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 3: in this process while being heard and while safely releasing

893
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 3: your revenge desires inside this imaginary courtroom where you're no

894
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 3: longer hurting yourself or anybody else, so you safely It's

895
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:09,720
Speaker 3: kind of like method owned for a drug addict.

896
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 4: Is the way I g right.

897
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 3: You get the chance to experience revenge in a safe way,

898
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 3: release it, and then move on to a point of healing.

899
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 2: It's so interesting because I think so much of what

900
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,799
Speaker 2: drives so many of us all the time is this

901
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:25,919
Speaker 2: need to feel seen and heard. And so in that

902
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 2: process that you just described, what a great way to

903
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:32,759
Speaker 2: feel seen, even to yourself sometimes you know, to be

904
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 2: acknowledged in that way. And then also to realize how

905
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:39,840
Speaker 2: much you're carrying because of this That is always a

906
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:43,440
Speaker 2: fascinating experience to me, is to realize the harm I'm

907
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 2: doing to myself by continuing to carry things on.

908
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 5: Wow.

909
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 2: Well, this is so fascinating. If you guys want to

910
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 2: know more about this topic in general, the book is

911
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:54,320
Speaker 2: out now. It's called The Science of Revenge. As always,

912
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 2: I will put that in the description of this podcast,

913
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:58,799
Speaker 2: Doctor Kimmel. Where else can people find you if they

914
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:00,080
Speaker 2: want to keep up with your work?

915
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:04,919
Speaker 3: Sure, I have a website, It's James Kimmel Junior dot com.

916
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:09,319
Speaker 3: James Kimmeljr. Dot Com is probably the best place. I'm

917
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:12,320
Speaker 3: also on Exit James Kimmel Junior dot com as well,

918
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 3: and Blue Sky I think is I think I have

919
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 3: an account now there as well. And then I have

920
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 3: a website at Yale as well, and you can find

921
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:22,919
Speaker 3: James Kimmel Jr.

922
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:23,919
Speaker 4: There too.

923
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:27,239
Speaker 3: But most importantly, the book The Science of Revenge is

924
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 3: the best place to get all of this information in

925
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 3: one place.

926
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 2: So okay, amazing Again, I will put all of that

927
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 2: in the description of this podcast for you guys. Thank

928
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 2: you so much for being here, Doctor Kimmel.

929
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 4: You're so welcome. Kelly of great interview, Thank you.

930
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to The Velvet's Edge podcast with Kelly

931
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 1: Henderson where we believe everyone has a little velvet in

932
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:49,400
Speaker 1: a little edge. Subscribe for more conversations on life, style,

933
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:53,719
Speaker 1: beauty and relationships. Search Velvet's Edge wherever you get your podcasts.