1 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:08,959 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. We have a vault episode for you 3 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: here today. This one originally published four ten, twenty twenty five. 4 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: I'm going to speak with Patricia Kashian, author of Forest Euphoria, 5 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: The Abounding Queerness of Nature. This is a really fun chat. 6 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: I found the book super engaging, and this is a 7 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: topic that I think everyone out there should should consider. 8 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: Gets it in some interesting territory where we think about 9 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: the way that we approach our understanding of the natural 10 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:44,919 Speaker 1: world and what sort of linguistic and cultural baggage we 11 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: have historically brought into that understanding and what we could 12 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: do to correct it. So let's dive right into this interview. 13 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 14 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 15 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. In today's episode, I'll be speaking with 16 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:15,839 Speaker 1: Patricia Kashian about her upcoming book Forest Euphoria, The Abounding 17 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: Queerness of Nature, publishing next month and available for pre 18 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: order right now in all formats. You'll find a pre 19 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: order link in the episode description for this podcast episode, 20 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: or you can look it up at speakleangrou dot com 21 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: slash Forest hyphen Euphoria. So it's a fun shat. We 22 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: discuss queer ecology, some amazing examples from nature, and even 23 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: brief discussion of the TV show The Last Office. So 24 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: without further ado, let's jump right in. Thank you, Hi Patti, 25 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to the show. 26 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 3: Hi, thanks for having me. 27 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: So the new book is Forest Euphoria, The Abounding Queerness 28 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: of Nature, a captivating text that meld scientific consideration of 29 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: ecology and about diversity with personal experience and insight. Tell 30 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: us how did this project come together? 31 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, so I started writing this book a few years ago. 32 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 4: I have a degree in mycology. I have a PhD 33 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 4: in mycology the study of fungi, and I had recently 34 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 4: finished my doctorate, and I throughout the later stage of 35 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 4: my PhD, though, I started getting really interested in philosophy 36 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 4: of science and queer theory, and so I sort of 37 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:34,959 Speaker 4: started to explore those things adjacent to my more formal 38 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 4: academic training in science. And I got really interested in 39 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 4: sort of how science functions, how we produce knowledge, how 40 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:49,639 Speaker 4: we make sense of knowledge within the scientific system, and 41 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 4: how where the power of science lies, but also. 42 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 3: What its shortcomings might be. 43 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 4: And so I'm someone who would say I'm very like 44 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 4: science positive. I think science is an amazing zaying tool 45 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,839 Speaker 4: and a really powerful way of knowing, but it also, 46 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 4: you know, is a human endeavor and as such pen 47 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 4: be flawed. And so I was sort of interested in 48 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 4: understanding what were the sort of limits of science and 49 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 4: how does science and culture interact. And as a mycologist, 50 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 4: I was, you know, I'm studying a group of organisms 51 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 4: that has historically been extremely maligned and neglected by science 52 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 4: and by popular culture and perception. And I was really 53 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,799 Speaker 4: interested in the fact that even though scientists obviously strive 54 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 4: for objectivity, I could find all throughout the science record 55 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 4: around mycology sort of a unwillingness or reluctance to see 56 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 4: their biology as fully as one should. Meaning we were 57 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 4: sort of the history of science is to sort of 58 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 4: pigeonhole fungi as being organisms that are just like dangerous 59 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 4: or deadly or disgusting. And there was actually a lack 60 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 4: of objectivity and approaching this whole group of organisms, and 61 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 4: as it kind of created a vacuum of knowledge. So 62 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 4: I started to sort of be interested in, well, how 63 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 4: did that come to be? How is it that a 64 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 4: group of organisms could be treated so subjectively by scientists, 65 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 4: and what does that mean for sort of our understanding 66 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 4: of them now? And so as I dug into that, 67 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 4: I got really interested in sort of the history of mycology. 68 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 3: You know, this feeling of fear. 69 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,359 Speaker 4: And revulsion that a lot of people in particularly in 70 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 4: North America or Western Europe have towards fungi. And that 71 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 4: brought me into sort of the realm of queer theory 72 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,239 Speaker 4: as well, which is, you know, the understanding of categories 73 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,359 Speaker 4: usually relating to sex and gender, but sort of how 74 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 4: we make sense of what is quote unquote normal, what 75 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 4: is quote unquote deviant, And queer theory could sort of 76 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 4: was used as a lens for understanding this construction, these 77 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 4: binaries that we construct in society about what is. 78 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 3: Good or bad, or what is normal what's not normal. 79 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,720 Speaker 4: I had started digging into that and was giving some 80 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 4: talks on the subject, and then an editor reached out 81 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 4: to me and asked, Hey, do you want to write 82 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 4: a book about queer theory and biodiversity? And I was like, yes, absolutely, 83 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 4: So I started doing that in I believe I was 84 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 4: the spring of twenty twenty. 85 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: Two awesome So speaking of queerness in the broader sense. 86 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: How do we currently define queer and queerness at a 87 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: human level, Because I feel like it's easy, it's easy 88 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: to sort of culturally absorb the term without really understanding 89 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: its history, and I guess you might say evolved meaning sure. 90 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,679 Speaker 4: So I use queerness sort of as an umbrella term 91 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 4: for life and behavior and ways of being that are 92 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 4: outside of the heteronormativity, but also as a way of 93 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 4: invoking kind of a notion of a shared collective struggle 94 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 4: towards liberation. So, you know, used to be an insult 95 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 4: or a pejorative term, and then people in that community 96 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 4: took that back and and sort of proudly self identified 97 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 4: as queer, particularly around the height of the AIDS crisis 98 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 4: epidemic in the United States, and used that sort of 99 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 4: queerness as a rallying cry to bring people from otherwise 100 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 4: sort of disparate LGBTQ groups and like bind them together 101 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 4: and come together for the shared purpose of of, you know, 102 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 4: addressing the AIDS crisis and other injustices related to homosexuality 103 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:38,919 Speaker 4: and so forth. So I actually think that queerness is 104 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 4: a term that is not just about I think you 105 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 4: can be gay and not really embody queerness. And by 106 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 4: that I mean I think that for me, the use 107 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 4: of queer is is always sort of tied to collective. 108 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 3: Liberation and so understanding your role in. 109 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 4: The collective and sort of how you relate to of power. 110 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,840 Speaker 4: And I'm you know, I'm sure other people have different definitions, 111 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 4: and that's one of the beauty of things that's beautiful 112 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 4: about being queer is that, you know, sometimes you don't 113 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 4: have to commit to one singular definition. But for me, 114 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 4: that's how I sort of understand it, and I apply 115 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 4: that not just to the human world in terms of liberation, 116 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 4: but also liberation of non human species and life systems 117 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 4: on earth. 118 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 1: All right, And that brings us to queer ecology. How 119 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: do we bring this definition of queer and queerness into 120 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: the ecological world And what's the history of queer ecology? 121 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 4: So queer ecology is sort of a you know, an 122 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 4: emerging field. I would say it's been there's been some 123 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 4: writings around it for the past decade or so, but 124 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 4: it's starting to take more shape. I think it's becoming 125 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 4: something that people are sinking their teeth into a bit 126 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 4: more in the last few years. There are many dimensions 127 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 4: to it upfront. The most like clear and concise like 128 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 4: element of queer ecology is the fact that many organisms 129 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 4: are simply not binary or sort of heteronormative, and they're 130 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 4: reproductive strategies. So throughout the animal kingdom, there's all sorts 131 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 4: of same sex, mating behaviors, partnerships. There are organisms that 132 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 4: have multiple sexes that sometimes in the same individual or 133 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 4: over a singular life span. In the fungal world, we 134 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 4: have all sorts of reproductive strategies that are non binary. 135 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 4: So there's sometimes sometimes there are you know, quote unquote 136 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 4: male or female species, but oftentimes there's multiple sexes or 137 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:42,599 Speaker 4: mating types depending on the group, their entire lineages of 138 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 4: fungi that are just asexual for all. 139 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 3: We know, quer. 140 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 4: Ecologies interested in exploring the biological reproductive strategies of different 141 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 4: organisms and also the behaviors between organisms, and sort of 142 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 4: like bringing to the four research that had been either 143 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 4: neglected to be you know, conducted, or suppressed or sort 144 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 4: of just overlooked regarding these sort of. 145 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 3: Non non normal, you know, non. 146 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 4: Heteronormative reproductive strategies, so that you know, a lot a 147 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 4: lot of the argument to shame queerness or same sex 148 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:24,319 Speaker 4: behaviors or it has been rooted in the fact that 149 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 4: the claim that it's not natural right to be gay, 150 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 4: it's not natural to be transgender, or something like this, 151 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 4: but we actually know that throughout all throughout the tree 152 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 4: of life, there are so many examples of these types 153 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 4: of ways of being. So if the claim is that 154 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 4: it's not natural, that's just not accurate. So part of 155 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 4: it is just sort of a corrective against that claim. Now, 156 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:50,439 Speaker 4: you know, often the goalpost is shifted by those who 157 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 4: are you know, homophobic or whatnot, but that has been 158 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 4: a long standing claim, So queer ecology helps sort of 159 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 4: make that clear. But then going further than that, getting 160 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 4: into the little bit more of the theories and philosophies, 161 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 4: it's also about understanding these constructions of categories, So like, 162 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 4: how do we like, how do science make sense of 163 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 4: the world? Are there limitations to that worldview? Are there 164 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 4: ways in which we've sort of blunted our understanding of 165 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 4: nature because we've been steeped in a particular cultural lens, 166 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 4: so particularly Western European philosophies. So one thing I talk 167 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 4: about a lot in my research and in my book 168 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 4: is the kind of notion of an individual right. 169 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:38,359 Speaker 3: So I'm a taxonomist. 170 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 4: I'm someone who names and describes new species of fungi. 171 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 4: So I definitely understand the utility of like a species 172 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 4: concept or you know, drawing the you know, approximate limits 173 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 4: of an individual so we can kind of make sense 174 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 4: of it and communicate about it. But there's also sort 175 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 4: of like under I also understand that that's like a 176 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 4: tool and a way of making sense in certain contexts. 177 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 4: But sometimes to deep more deeply understand a really complex system, 178 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 4: we might need to let go of certain rigid boxes 179 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 4: that we've constructed, and so that can be a really 180 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 4: challenging thing for people deep steeped in Western philosophical thought, 181 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 4: and we really love the idea of an individual as 182 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 4: a unit as a structure. But for example, in fungi, 183 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:29,439 Speaker 4: we see oftentimes that these organisms are not really adhering 184 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 4: to really clear lines of like what is this body 185 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 4: versus the other? Like what is this species versus the other? 186 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:40,079 Speaker 4: And often fungi or forming really complex webs of interaction 187 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 4: living you know, basically living in symbiosis, you know, sometimes 188 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 4: cells with in larger bodies, and then it starts to 189 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 4: challenge your ability to really like draw those lines when 190 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 4: the more you sort of engage with a biological understanding 191 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 4: of these really complex beings. So in quer ecology, we 192 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 4: sort of are like bringing that to light, like how 193 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 4: does how do we make sense of the world if 194 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 4: we kind of decompose some of the notions that we've 195 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 4: long kind of clung onto. And my goal with this 196 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 4: is always to do better science, right, So ultimately I'm 197 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 4: not trying to discard the scientific method. Again, I'm very 198 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 4: positive towards science, But it's about like pushing us beyond 199 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 4: the limits of current knowledge. Can we better understand the 200 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,559 Speaker 4: ecosystems around us, like how fungi form complex partnerships or 201 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 4: how you know, desoil function. Can we can we push 202 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 4: past some of the limitations that we've imposed on our 203 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,839 Speaker 4: own scientific processes by not examining our own biases. 204 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I found it really interesting to think about because 205 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: I know for some listeners out there, there may be 206 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,959 Speaker 1: this sort of maybe instinctual backlash against the idea of 207 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: career ecology, thinking that well, okay, maybe this is like 208 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,439 Speaker 1: a human cultural matter and it's being used to influence 209 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: the shape of scientific undertaking. But it's really quite the opposite, 210 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: isn't it. More of an attempt to undo binary, anthropomorphic 211 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: interpretations of nature. 212 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. 213 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:06,679 Speaker 4: I think that's a really good way of a succinct 214 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 4: way of putting it. You know, so often I hear 215 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 4: or like kind of detect a resistance to this, yeah, 216 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 4: like to politicizing science or making like adding this sort 217 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 4: of like identity politics to science or something like this. 218 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 4: But really, like, actually, when you examine the scientific record, 219 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 4: you can see that it's already fraught with. 220 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:28,839 Speaker 3: Those things, there's all. 221 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 4: And that's why I think the mycological example is really 222 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 4: powerful because so like even we have examples of like 223 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:40,559 Speaker 4: Carl Lenaeus, one of the founders of modern taxonomy, describing 224 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 4: fungi as rastichi poparini, the poorest peasants of the vegetable class. Like, 225 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 4: that's an incredibly subjective way of looking at an organism, right, 226 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 4: calling it poor and a peasant and obviously filled with disdain. 227 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 3: So that's not objectivity, that's his. 228 00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 4: He thought they were weird, he called them, you know, 229 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 4: he did categorize them as lower plants, so that obviously 230 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:08,200 Speaker 4: this was prior to our Darwinian evolution knowledge. 231 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 3: So like I'm not holding that against him. 232 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 4: But at the same time, that is still the fact 233 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 4: of the matter is that a lot of scientists were 234 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 4: Christian Western European men of high class, and those world 235 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 4: views are present in their writings and in the canon 236 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 4: of science. So I'm sort of look kind of treating 237 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 4: this as like a way a corrective to that history. 238 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 4: How do we go through that history and make sense 239 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 4: of the what we know now understanding that these people 240 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 4: were like all of us, you know, limited, while we're 241 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 4: all limited in our capacity, and that's not a terrible thing, 242 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 4: but it is true. And so sometimes people think that 243 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 4: if you're kind of constantly thinking about sociology or your 244 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 4: own identity, that you might be clouding your own objectivity. 245 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 4: But I think it kind of actually can function the 246 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 4: opposite way, that it actually can make you more conscious 247 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 4: of your flaws and what bias as you might be 248 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 4: replicating because we all have them. 249 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 3: Right. 250 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 4: It's not about saying someone's good or bad. It's just 251 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 4: that we all are people and can and can be limited. 252 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 4: And so it's also not really I think that much 253 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 4: about your own identity. I think that it's really about 254 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 4: understanding how information moves, how do we assign value, how 255 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 4: do we assign how does power function to create meaning, 256 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 4: and anyone is capable of sort of like exploring that. Right, 257 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 4: that's not you don't have to have a particular identity 258 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 4: to be interested in challenging that or like thinking through 259 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 4: that critically. 260 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, because I feel like it's one of those worldviews 261 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: where like we're it's we're just in it, and we 262 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: don't necessarily like see it, We're not necessarily aware of 263 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: these limitations unless we sort of step outside of it 264 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: momentarily at least. 265 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 4: Right, it's a good practice as a scientist, I think, 266 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 4: to kind of reflect on even if you think your 267 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 4: discipline is really, you know, not touched by human culture, 268 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 4: I think it can be, and and I would say 269 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 4: some disciplines are much more into touch with that than others. 270 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 4: But there's still, like, I think it's a good reflection 271 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 4: as a scientist. I think it can make you a 272 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 4: more ethical, more grounded, and more effective scientists to at 273 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 4: least be like considering these how this might function in 274 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 4: your own work. 275 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: Now, coming back to the book, very early on in 276 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: the book, you mentioned the nineteen ninety six French documentary Microcosms, 277 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: which I think a lot of our listeners have probably 278 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: seen in spite perhaps of that sort of infamous American 279 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: poster that featured the praying mantis with the sunglasses, rather 280 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: out of keeping with the actual vibe of the film, 281 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: the vibe of which you discussed. 282 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 4: So I really love that film because it's so immersive 283 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 4: in this world of insects and other arthropods, and I 284 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 4: think that those animals are so often treated with contempt. Right, 285 00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 4: So we similar to fungi. There's these persons around insects 286 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 4: and and these you know, invertebrate animals that they're creepy, disgusting, 287 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 4: they're like unworthy of of our care and love. 288 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 3: You know. 289 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:17,360 Speaker 4: We we don't have any like coordinated system for ethics 290 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 4: around insects, right, it's all like, actually the ethic is 291 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 4: really that you can kill them without mercy. And so 292 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 4: I I just find but I find them to be 293 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 4: so incredibly well. They are not just I don't not 294 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 4: just me who finds them this way. They are incredibly diverse. 295 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 4: There there are you know, millions of species of insects, 296 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 4: and they are these it's a whole, it's a universe 297 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 4: unto itself, right. And so what I like about microcosmos 298 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,919 Speaker 4: is that it really submerses you into that world and 299 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 4: you start to see that these things are animals. Like 300 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 4: I think a lot of people know technically, and I'm 301 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:58,159 Speaker 4: sure most listeners this podcast know that, like, insects are animals, 302 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 4: but you can still like something about out making the 303 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 4: micro sort of macro. 304 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:04,400 Speaker 3: You really see like, oh, this thing. 305 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 4: Has like all these ornaments, and it has a behavior, 306 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 4: and it has a family, and it has these you know, 307 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 4: and it has sex and like all it is like 308 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 4: an animal world. I think we just reduce them to 309 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 4: these very flat, kind of negative categories otherwise. 310 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 3: So I love that it kind of. 311 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 4: Creates this drama that you're like with the music and 312 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 4: you're sort of in and then like these towering plants 313 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 4: all around you and you're kind of in this metropolis 314 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 4: of this other world. And I think it makes them 315 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 4: feel like dynamic, because they are dynamic. They're species that 316 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 4: have complex lives and probably feel all sorts of sensations 317 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 4: that we've kind of typically denied them, so like pleasure 318 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 4: and maybe. 319 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 3: Even pain and fear. 320 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 4: And you know, we don't know too much about insect 321 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 4: neuroscience in terms of what sensations they're capable of, but 322 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 4: it kind of seems crazy to me that we would 323 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 4: just assume from the jump that they're unfeeling entirely Like, 324 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 4: that doesn't make that doesn't really make scientific sense to me, right, So, 325 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 4: and then there's also so there's other arthropods and and 326 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 4: and then invertebrates. So like, I really love the snail 327 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 4: sex scene where these two uh snails are there is 328 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 4: like a gradual operatic situation where they are finding they 329 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 4: find each other in the in the moss, and then 330 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 4: they are entwine their bodies together and it's just and 331 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 4: the opera crescendos as it is happening, and it's just like, wow, 332 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 4: these animals are really like experiencing pleasure, Like they're really 333 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 4: like in this thing together, and they're and also they're 334 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 4: both you're not sure what the sex is of either 335 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 4: because they're they actually are both hermaphroditic. They both have 336 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 4: both you know, male and female reproductive organs in their bodies, 337 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 4: so there there is this queer literal reproductive the queer 338 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:01,919 Speaker 4: element to them as well. 339 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 3: So I just it's a great film. 340 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 4: If you haven't seen it, I definitely recommend just setting 341 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 4: aside a couple hours and immersing yourself into this micro world. 342 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I had seen it years ago, and I noticed 343 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 1: that it's currently on Criterion Channel, so I pulled it 344 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,880 Speaker 1: up during lunch the other day. Yeah, it's still gorgeous. 345 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: And this is something you touch on in the book 346 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: as well. It has almost no narration. There's like a 347 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: little opening, narrational, little closing, but for the most part, 348 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 1: like you're just immersed in this visual world of the 349 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: creatures studied here. 350 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really beautiful. 351 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 1: So in the book, you bring up many examples of 352 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: queerness in nature, again not exceptions to an imagined binary rule, 353 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 1: but expressions of that abounding queerness that you get to 354 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 1: in the title. What are some of your favorite additional 355 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 1: examples to bring up in discussing queer ecology. 356 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 4: I really am obsessed with eels, and they specifically the 357 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 4: American eel that I talk about in the book. I 358 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,120 Speaker 4: think that they there's so much to their the they're 359 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 4: very there, so they have a very queer body, right. 360 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:28,479 Speaker 4: So they are organisms that spend most of their life 361 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:31,160 Speaker 4: as intersex. 362 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 3: In zoology, we use the. 363 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 4: Word hermaphroditic, but I know that humans prefer intersex, so 364 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 4: I try I actually, I guess I think that's probably 365 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:45,400 Speaker 4: the better term to use. So in the snail, sorry, 366 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 4: the eel bodies are intersects in that they both have 367 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 4: both male or they have testes, and they have ovaries 368 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 4: for most of their life, and so you can't you know, 369 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 4: there there was a lot of mystery around them in 370 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 4: the early days of natural history, trying to understand, well, 371 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 4: what are they, you know, and so the a lot 372 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 4: of scientists were determined that they must be either male 373 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 4: or female, and so that sort of lens of trying 374 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 4: to prove that they were one or the other dominated 375 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 4: investigations into their bodies in biology. And one of those 376 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 4: people researching eel sex was Sigmund Freud, and I so 377 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 4: I write a little bit about his early days, before 378 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 4: he became interested in psychology or before he was studying it, 379 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:40,199 Speaker 4: was studying natural history, and he he was someone who 380 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 4: wanted to sort of understand what the eel sex situation was, 381 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 4: and spoke spent actually a much of his time dissecting 382 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 4: the bodies of eels trying to find proof of like 383 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 4: sort of one sex or the other, and he kept 384 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,479 Speaker 4: he wanted to find specifically, he didn't understand why, like 385 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 4: where were all the males? So I think it was 386 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 4: easier to find ovarian tissue, but it was harder to 387 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 4: find testicular type tissues, And so he dissected like hundreds 388 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 4: of eels before finally finding some evidence that there. 389 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 3: Were males or male sex organs. 390 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 4: And some people think that this may have been this 391 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 4: sort of pursuit might have given rise to some of 392 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 4: his later concepts like castration, anxiety and stuff like this, 393 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 4: because he was maybe made anxious by the fact that 394 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 4: this was not actually something he could easily find. But 395 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,880 Speaker 4: eels are just, on several levels, incredibly fascinating. And one 396 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:44,199 Speaker 4: thing that also I grew really interested in was the 397 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 4: way that they migrate. So they are spawned. All of 398 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 4: the American eels are born in the Sargasso Sea, so 399 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 4: kind of near the Bermuda triangle, and for up until 400 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 4: very recently, this exact location is unknown, and their whole 401 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,120 Speaker 4: sort of sexual reproduction was not witnessed or recorded by science. 402 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 4: And then the eels migrate from the Bermuda like from 403 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 4: the Sargasso Sea all the way up to the along 404 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 4: the length of the North American eastern seaboard and enter 405 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 4: into freshwater systems through rivers that reach the ocean and 406 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 4: they swim upstream and they can go pretty far. They 407 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 4: can travel hundreds of miles within the freshwater systems. And 408 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 4: I got to experience eels at when I was teaching 409 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 4: at Bard College in the Hudson Valley, so on the 410 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 4: Hudson River, and. 411 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 3: There was an eel monitoring. 412 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 4: Project because eels have their populations have collapsed due to 413 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:53,120 Speaker 4: overfishing and pollution and habitat destruction. So there's a monitoring 414 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 4: project with Hudsonia and Environmental Org. And we would I 415 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 4: would take my students and we'd volunteer to help them 416 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,200 Speaker 4: up eels, document them, and then release. 417 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 3: Them into the freshwater systems. 418 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 4: And so I started learning about how eels do this migration. 419 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 4: They they make this trip from the Sargasso Sea with 420 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 4: just basically only being about an inch long, and they're 421 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,199 Speaker 4: totally translucent, except you can see through their bodies. You 422 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 4: can see that their eyes and then their their spinal cords, 423 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,239 Speaker 4: and but they're just this tiny little fish that like 424 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,880 Speaker 4: swims for for it can take them over a year 425 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 4: to swim from where they were born to these freshwater 426 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,679 Speaker 4: systems that the systems that their parents came from. And 427 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 4: so I was like, you know, started reading about how 428 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 4: they are using magnetite, which is a oxidized iron material 429 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,880 Speaker 4: that's in their set like in and around their brains. 430 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 4: And this is something that other animals have as well. 431 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 4: It's best studied in fish like salmon, which also are 432 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 4: you know, do these complex migratory routes. But it's magnetite 433 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 4: is present throughout the tree of life. Even humans have it, 434 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 4: but we're not sure exactly if its function in our bodies. 435 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 4: But what's amazing about magnetite is that it is in 436 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 4: the case of these complex animals, like multicellular animals, it's 437 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,479 Speaker 4: probably it's believed to have been of bacterial origin, so 438 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 4: it's likely arose from an endosymbiotic event. So end of 439 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:29,400 Speaker 4: symbiosis is a process by which, you know, one species 440 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 4: of a smaller size is engulfed by another larger species 441 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 4: and eventually, over time they become interdependent on one another 442 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 4: through you know, many generations, and so this is the 443 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 4: this is how many of our organelles came to be. 444 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 4: So mitochondria, for example, were used to be free living 445 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 4: bacteria that were absorbed by another cell and then instead 446 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 4: of it being maybe eaten or just being sort of killed, 447 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 4: by that engulfing, it's stato ill live and then persisted 448 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 4: as a living cell within a larger cell, and eventually, 449 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 4: over many, many, many generations, they become you know, like 450 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 4: entangled with each other in physiologically and energetically. And so 451 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 4: this process is so I mean, it's just kind of 452 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 4: crazy to wrap your mind around. It's stranger than fiction 453 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 4: in a lot of ways, Like what are the odds 454 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:25,439 Speaker 4: of these types of you know, cellular events happening, And 455 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,400 Speaker 4: how is it that such sort of randomness could then 456 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 4: give rise to such complexity. I mean, this is like 457 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 4: the study of evolution, right, it's just absolutely crazy. I mean, 458 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:40,239 Speaker 4: it's like it sometimes feels just absolutely absurd. But what 459 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 4: I kind of am bringing it back a little bit 460 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,199 Speaker 4: to quer ecology in a moment, which is that for 461 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 4: most of a lot of scientific history, Western science was 462 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 4: pretty resistant to this idea of symbiosis or to interdependencies 463 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 4: or sort of that you know, the individual could really 464 00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 4: be made up of many, you know, individuals, and we 465 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 4: are collectively a being that is not really discernible without 466 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 4: the presence of all these other micro organisms and such. 467 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 4: So the science there was a scientist, an evolutionary biologist 468 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:18,120 Speaker 4: Lynn Margolis, who was the person who's who brought endo 469 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,639 Speaker 4: symbiotic theory to like the attention of science, and for 470 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 4: many years she was dismissed as you know, being kind 471 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 4: of just like part partly on the basis of her gender, 472 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 4: but just also on the basis of the fact that 473 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 4: this just seems so crazy, like we are how could 474 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 4: endosymbiosis really be like the foundation of the human body, 475 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 4: like like the noble amazing, you know, a complex person 476 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 4: couldn't really could we really be just like a bunch 477 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 4: of bacteria and fungi in a in a flesh, fleshy form. 478 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 3: But over time, more. 479 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 4: And more evidence accumulated in support of her hypotheses, and 480 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 4: now that is understood as as a like a you know, 481 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 4: a fact of evolutionary biology. 482 00:28:58,760 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 3: And so that. 483 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,959 Speaker 4: But she was willing to sort of challenge the paradigm 484 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 4: and push outside of like what is normal and what 485 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 4: is accepted in the scientific discipline, and at great personal 486 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 4: you know, risk and costs professionally. So I think that 487 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 4: that part that story of like how magnetite Okay, okay, 488 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 4: So then going back to the magnetite, there were these 489 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 4: ancient bacteria that probably through just a you know, random mutation, 490 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 4: started accumulating magnetite in their cells, and the magnetite is 491 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 4: receptive to the magnetic fields of the Earth, and so 492 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,719 Speaker 4: over time these what was probably just like you know, 493 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,479 Speaker 4: a mutation of accumulation of this of this material became 494 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 4: beneficial to that organism. They started to be able to 495 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 4: sort of orient themselves to the man the magnetic fields 496 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 4: of the Earth, and developed something of a magneto taxis, 497 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 4: so being able to move by magnetic fields, and so 498 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 4: we have like chemo taxes or photo taxis, and magnomagnetic 499 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 4: taxis is another form of response, you know, stimulation and response. 500 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 3: So the over time and we have. 501 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 4: There there are these basically accumulations of these little packets 502 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 4: of magnetite in a bacterial cell, and they formed in 503 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 4: a tiny like little chain, and that chain became almost 504 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 4: like a compass needle that could move in response to 505 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 4: the magnetic fields of the Earth. And that some ancestor 506 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 4: of that bacteria was probably what was absorbed into another 507 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 4: larger cell. That then is you know, deep in the 508 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 4: tree of life of animals, and just a common ancestor 509 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 4: of most animals probably had absorbed some sort of magnetive 510 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 4: tactic bacteria and that's why we can find it scattered 511 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 4: across all the tree of life. And so some animals 512 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 4: have you know, evolved these magnetostonms, these more complex structures 513 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 4: within with in which magnet is found and they are 514 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 4: basically sensory organs that so, like in salmon, for example, 515 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 4: we know that there's the complex magnetostomes in and around 516 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 4: their little noses and faces and they use that to 517 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 4: guide their migratory journeys from from you know, c in 518 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 4: fresh water. And so we think eels have that as well, 519 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 4: and that's sort of how they're able to travel through 520 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 4: the ocean for weeks and weeks and weeks or oriented 521 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 4: towards this sort of ancestral water that was probably somehow 522 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 4: that imprinted into. 523 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 3: The magnetostomes that they're using. 524 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 4: So this is that was a very long story, but 525 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 4: I think both elements of the eel biology are are relevant. 526 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 4: So there's the queer ecological the queer biological fact of 527 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 4: their bodies being intersects for most of their life and 528 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 4: then when they are about to make their journey, so 529 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 4: they migrate up to freshwater, live there for several decades 530 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 4: and then when they are it's time to reproduce their 531 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 4: sort of say into preparing for a journey. 532 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 3: Back to the Sargasso c. 533 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 4: And at that point they replace all of their digestive 534 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 4: organs get sort of cannibalized and cellularly repurposed into sexual 535 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 4: reproductive organs, and that at that point typically they become 536 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 4: you know, they develop more fully ovariant tissue or more 537 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 4: fully testicular tissues, or they can retain both, and then 538 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 4: they make that journey back to the Sargasso c and 539 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 4: they have a raucous I guess evening of sexual reproduction. 540 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 4: So that is super queer in a sort of queer 541 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 4: like in a direct reproductive sense. But then also this 542 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 4: sort of you know, the history of endosymbiosis as being 543 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 4: a kind of a rejected concept in the scientific establishment 544 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 4: because it showed that these you know, higher quote unquote, 545 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 4: higher level organisms were the kind of random events of 546 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 4: these lowly microbes. And that kind of perspective is something 547 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 4: that challenges is like the agency of more complex beings. 548 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 3: And the human Wow. 549 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: Absolutely, Uh, there's another organism that you bring up, and 550 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: I have to admit this is an organism that has 551 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 1: long been one of my favorites, but at a like 552 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: a a zoo tourist level, Like I've never researched them 553 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 1: for the podcast or anything, so I only really knew 554 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 1: what was out there already, like you know, going to 555 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 1: zoos and you know up there on the little sign 556 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: and so forth. But the castawary, oh yeah, And granted 557 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 1: there's a lot about the castawary to catch your eye 558 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 1: and to explain to a general audience, like their you know, 559 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: their their coloration, their their flightlessness, their their feet, the 560 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 1: formation on the top of their head. But I was 561 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: really taken by your discussion of how they they fit 562 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 1: into queer ecology. Would you would you tell us a 563 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 1: little bit about this. 564 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, So castwaries they're amazing birds. They're incredibly. 565 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 4: You know, like they just are very much like, Okay, 566 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 4: you understand that they're related to how closely related they 567 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 4: are to dinosaurs, and so they're completely fascinating. But for 568 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 4: in terms of the like they're sort of queer structures. 569 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 4: They for a long time, it was really not discussed 570 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 4: in any of the literature on their basic biology, like 571 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 4: how they were reproducing and the fact that like some 572 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 4: of the females have these fallacies and some of the 573 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 4: males have like inverted basically like they instead of having 574 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 4: an extroverted fallus, they have inverted structures. 575 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 3: So they sort of have this like. 576 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 4: In what you know, what we would consider the opposite 577 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 4: and you know, most people would consider the opposite type 578 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 4: structure representing you know, on the male or female. And 579 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,799 Speaker 4: so for a long time, people who the people like 580 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 4: indigenous to this area where castwerries are found, would involve 581 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:53,359 Speaker 4: cassowaries in a lot of their cosmologies and iconographies and 582 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:57,800 Speaker 4: specifically were aware that they had these you know, queer 583 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 4: reproductive organs orans that were not binary organs that defied 584 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 4: sort of expectations around gender or sex, and they incorporated 585 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 4: that into some into ritual and so forth. So this 586 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 4: was known to the people who lived amongst them for 587 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 4: thousands of years that they actually have really sort of 588 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 4: these these structures. But in the Western scientific descriptions of 589 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 4: these birds there were there was really no mention of 590 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 4: this fact. And and so actually I learned about this 591 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 4: through reading Biological Exuberance by Bruce Begamial I believe is 592 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 4: the pronunciation of his last name, which is a wonderful compendium, 593 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:39,880 Speaker 4: very textbook like compendium of examples of queerness in nature, 594 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 4: and I found that it's a wonderful resource. 595 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:43,880 Speaker 3: It's and it does get a little. 596 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 4: Bit into sort of the like reasons why certain studies 597 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 4: were maybe not taken seriously or suppressed or ignored. And 598 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 4: so he notes that, you know, these birds were known 599 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 4: for a while to be like this, but you could 600 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,759 Speaker 4: not find record of that in in like pub locations. 601 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 4: And he believes it's because there was sort of shame 602 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:11,279 Speaker 4: and anxiety around just simply reporting evidence of queerness or 603 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,720 Speaker 4: homosexuality or of you know, sort of gender sex nonconformity 604 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 4: in the scientific literature. So it's it's just an it's 605 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 4: an interesting example of the fact that like, so going 606 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 4: back to the earlier part of our conversation where we 607 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 4: can have or we talk about you know, it's not 608 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 4: actually we're not actually being political when we pull these 609 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 4: things out. We're actually exposing the fact that there were 610 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 4: biases that clouded the objectivity in science, and it's important 611 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 4: to acknowledge those and sort of pull that subjectivity out. 612 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 3: And actually just look at these things very factually. 613 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 4: So it's just a good example of like what you 614 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 4: what happens when you're just afraid to make waves in science, 615 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 4: or you're or you're just not looking correctly, so you 616 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,760 Speaker 4: might have maybe maybe you know. He has other examples 617 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,759 Speaker 4: in the book too, where scientists would talk about, you know, 618 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,319 Speaker 4: seeing something and just really not believing them their own 619 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 4: observations because it was contradictory to heteronormativity. It's like, or 620 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,319 Speaker 4: they would come up with very non parsimonious explanations as 621 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 4: to why they were seeing what they were seeing, like, oh, 622 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 4: this these two you know birds are have a same 623 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:25,239 Speaker 4: sex partnership, but you know, they're probably just confused or 624 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,600 Speaker 4: something like that, right, and so making these sort of 625 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:31,719 Speaker 4: like reaching for explanations that that are not really evidence 626 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:33,839 Speaker 4: based but are just sort of like would would kind 627 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 4: of explain away the fact that you're constantly seeing same 628 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 4: sex behaviors in that species. So the same with the cassowaries. 629 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:42,279 Speaker 4: This was the case as well that they were just 630 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 4: like not either not report. We can't be sure exactly why, 631 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 4: but it seems as if they were either not reporting 632 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,200 Speaker 4: what they were seeing or they didn't believe their own 633 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,480 Speaker 4: examinations of these birds. They were like, maybe I'm just 634 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,400 Speaker 4: not getting it, but maybe it was just that they're 635 00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 4: not conforming to our notions of what sexual structure should 636 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,280 Speaker 4: look like in males or females. 637 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 1: It's such a fascinating way to sort of turn the 638 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 1: tables on anthromomorphism and sort of see it as I guess, 639 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:13,359 Speaker 1: you know, on one hand, we have to acknowledge that 640 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:17,240 Speaker 1: anthromeomorphism helps us in some cases care more about animals. 641 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 1: You know, we see ourselves reflected in them, But then 642 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:23,399 Speaker 1: it can stand in the way of fully understanding what 643 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 1: they are and how they operate, because even at a 644 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 1: subliminal level, like we're seeing ourselves in them and seeing 645 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: them as models of humans. 646 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:33,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. 647 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:35,880 Speaker 4: I think that is a really important point because I 648 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:41,279 Speaker 4: think anthropomorphism can be a good tool, and it can 649 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,440 Speaker 4: stand in the way, and it kind of is case dependent, 650 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 4: and it's also so it sort of requires you to 651 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:50,799 Speaker 4: be constantly reflexive on like if I like withhold all 652 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 4: of the complexity that I know is found in the 653 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 4: human species from another species. 654 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 3: Am I learning more about it? Or am I making it? Like? 655 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 4: Am I actually reducing my understanding of it? And so 656 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,400 Speaker 4: that kind of negotiation is something that I try to 657 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,359 Speaker 4: engage with regularly. It's like, so for example, going back 658 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 4: to the insects. If I assume nothing like no human 659 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 4: qualities can be mapped onto insects, then I might assume 660 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 4: that they're incapable of experiencing pleasure or pain, or that 661 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:24,440 Speaker 4: they don't have like complex social realities, And then I 662 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 4: might actually not really understand insects. But you can take 663 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 4: it then, as you're saying, you can also for the castwaorries. 664 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:33,080 Speaker 3: If we assume like a. 665 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:34,880 Speaker 4: Male looks like this and a female looks like this, 666 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,719 Speaker 4: then you know you're because of what we think is 667 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 4: normal for people. Then we are also reducing our understanding 668 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 4: of these organisms. So it kind of is this constant 669 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:50,400 Speaker 4: like negotiation and toggle between can can anthropomorphism actually enrich 670 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,360 Speaker 4: our scientific understanding? Or is in this moment is it 671 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:55,840 Speaker 4: restricting us? And so there isn't like a one answer. 672 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:59,400 Speaker 4: It's sort of a constant question. But I try. I 673 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:03,160 Speaker 4: tin my sort of inclination and this is just sort 674 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,200 Speaker 4: of my style not to be prescriptive, is to sort 675 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:10,879 Speaker 4: of assume human like qualities and then scientifically assess what 676 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:11,279 Speaker 4: you know. 677 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:12,320 Speaker 3: Is that accurate? 678 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:17,279 Speaker 4: And so I'd rather over project you know, feeling and 679 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 4: dynamicism and complexity, and then maybe have you with evidence 680 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:27,759 Speaker 4: take that away or under renegotiate that as opposed to 681 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 4: assuming being that you're this inert, unfeeling species and you 682 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 4: have nothing. You know, you're just a you know, like 683 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 4: a collection of molecules and there's no sort of vitalism there, 684 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:43,600 Speaker 4: and so that's kind of that's if I had to 685 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:47,560 Speaker 4: pick one. I actually think anthropomorphism is likely to enrich 686 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,680 Speaker 4: our understanding, but caveats abound. 687 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,319 Speaker 1: Now coming back to the realm of mycology and where 688 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 1: it intersects with human culture and understanding. I wonder what 689 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:14,000 Speaker 1: your thoughts are on this. I know that, like in general, 690 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 1: writers have often touched on different cultures being micophilic or microphobic, 691 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,640 Speaker 1: like on the whole, seeing like the realm of mushrooms 692 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: and fun guys being dangerous or beneficial and not being 693 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:32,279 Speaker 1: like wrapped up in their culture. And this of course 694 00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:34,760 Speaker 1: gets into what you're talking about earlier, about the about 695 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 1: certain despised species or forms of life within given cultures. 696 00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:41,719 Speaker 1: And I was just wondering, like, do you see an 697 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,560 Speaker 1: overlap between traditional cultures that are more micophilic and ones 698 00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:49,239 Speaker 1: that are traditionally like less defined and by rigid binary 699 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,200 Speaker 1: definitions of sexuality and gender. 700 00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:53,400 Speaker 3: HM, that's a really good question. 701 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,239 Speaker 4: I think in general, yes, I would say that as 702 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,120 Speaker 4: I'm not you know, and I'm not an anthropologist or 703 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,160 Speaker 4: a sociologists, but from you know, so as a mycologist 704 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,440 Speaker 4: trying to sort of explore this topic, I you know, 705 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:10,799 Speaker 4: I don't I can't speak super confidently for other cultures, 706 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,000 Speaker 4: but what I can say is that a lot of 707 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 4: the history of homophobia and the history of sort of 708 00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 4: the way that the patriarchy functions in Western European and 709 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 4: euro American culture had you know, that's something that has 710 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:31,480 Speaker 4: been exported around the world through colonialism and other you know, 711 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,600 Speaker 4: there have been societies all over the world that have had, 712 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:39,600 Speaker 4: you know, have sought to have conformity with gender and 713 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,560 Speaker 4: with you know, and have been patriarchal and stuff. But 714 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,080 Speaker 4: the type the sort of manifestation that we are now 715 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:49,960 Speaker 4: all pretty familiar with originated in you know, Western European 716 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,400 Speaker 4: and euro American thought, and then what has been imposed 717 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:58,000 Speaker 4: pretty forcefully around the world. So I would say that 718 00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:02,680 Speaker 4: in general, there's a trend that societies that had less 719 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:08,320 Speaker 4: rigid notions of gender or still do have also had 720 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:13,920 Speaker 4: unders like cosmological understandings of the earth as being, you know, 721 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:18,840 Speaker 4: with as they're being like deep interdependence between species, and 722 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:22,640 Speaker 4: are generally less hierarchical, even in their understanding of species, 723 00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:25,520 Speaker 4: not that are non human. You know, so much of 724 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:32,239 Speaker 4: the the binary understanding of like humans and nature that 725 00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:36,160 Speaker 4: is also like a wet Western you know, European origin, 726 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,239 Speaker 4: the exact manifestation of it in you know that we're 727 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:40,080 Speaker 4: now familiar with. 728 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:42,000 Speaker 3: You know, there's like there's us and them. 729 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:44,759 Speaker 4: There are these two categories, there's human and nature, and 730 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:50,359 Speaker 4: that you know, humans are placed atop this hierarchy. We were, 731 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:53,400 Speaker 4: you know, we were the chosen species. We are divine, 732 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,799 Speaker 4: and we are the most complex and the most intelligent 733 00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:59,279 Speaker 4: and most rational, and everything else is just. 734 00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:02,000 Speaker 3: Sort of beneath us, to varying degrees. 735 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:06,640 Speaker 4: And in Western European thought that the things that were 736 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,879 Speaker 4: the lowest on this sort of pyramid would have been 737 00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:16,239 Speaker 4: fungi and invertebrates, insects and things like this. So that 738 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:23,799 Speaker 4: hierarchy is really foundational to European and Western European thought. 739 00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,640 Speaker 4: So that and that's so it is like some I 740 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:31,520 Speaker 4: guess I feel most confident speaking about this society because 741 00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:33,640 Speaker 4: I'm someone who grew up in it, and I'm part 742 00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,520 Speaker 4: Irish Irish and part Armenian, and I grew up in 743 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:39,520 Speaker 4: the United States, so I feel like most, you know, 744 00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,879 Speaker 4: I'm most able to comment on how that functions. Now, 745 00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:46,120 Speaker 4: there are other societies, you know, around the world that 746 00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:53,160 Speaker 4: including Eastern European, places in Mexico, places in West Africa, Japan, 747 00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:57,200 Speaker 4: where mushrooms are not considered, you know, not as strongly 748 00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,959 Speaker 4: associated with anything negative, and have a long history being 749 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 4: celebrated and integrated into culture. And historically these places also 750 00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:12,280 Speaker 4: had less rigid understandings of gender. But now, of course 751 00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:14,600 Speaker 4: it's hard to sort of draw that line because of 752 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,759 Speaker 4: the impact of colonialism. So I'd say that there is 753 00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:21,880 Speaker 4: a relationship, and I'm always interested in hearing from people 754 00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:25,479 Speaker 4: who grew up steeped in other cultures about this specific topic, 755 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:27,680 Speaker 4: because there isn't a lot written about it. So this 756 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:29,520 Speaker 4: is sort of just what I've been able to kind 757 00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:33,240 Speaker 4: of piece together over time, again not being a sociologist, 758 00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:36,440 Speaker 4: but there is a relationship between sort of how does 759 00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,680 Speaker 4: a culture respond to the unknown. So in general, there's 760 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:43,520 Speaker 4: like a feeling that what is unknown induces sort of 761 00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:48,920 Speaker 4: anxiety and fear versus the unknown inducing something sort of 762 00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:53,000 Speaker 4: a feeling of revelation or divinity or you know, sort 763 00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:56,120 Speaker 4: of magic. And I think in our culture there is 764 00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,400 Speaker 4: a association with wanting to control the unknown. 765 00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,600 Speaker 3: To be known is to be a threat, and that's subversive. 766 00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:05,839 Speaker 4: And so fungi kind of are these organisms and saying 767 00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,920 Speaker 4: with insects in particular, they both are groups of organisms 768 00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:13,200 Speaker 4: that really subvert the desire to dominate because they're like, 769 00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:16,080 Speaker 4: you know, difficult to predict. They can they move in 770 00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,960 Speaker 4: ways that sort of are unexpected. They can be ephemeral, 771 00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,759 Speaker 4: they can amass, they can pop up overnight. Right, And 772 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:30,200 Speaker 4: this all of this sort of transitory, ephemeral, difficult to 773 00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:34,440 Speaker 4: predict biology makes them sort of induces a feeling of fear, 774 00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:37,040 Speaker 4: and I think that that is also there's a parallel 775 00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:40,759 Speaker 4: there to how people respond to people who do not 776 00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:44,480 Speaker 4: conform not just within matters of sex and gender, but 777 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,120 Speaker 4: also in terms of ability, in terms of race. Right, 778 00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:49,040 Speaker 4: So there's also this feeling of like, if you're not 779 00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:51,839 Speaker 4: what I expect, I will fear you because I can't 780 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:55,560 Speaker 4: I don't quite know how to control you, right, And 781 00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:58,319 Speaker 4: control is often you know, executed first by putting someone 782 00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:00,239 Speaker 4: in a box. Right, you are either this or that 783 00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:01,880 Speaker 4: I need to make sense of you, so I know 784 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,120 Speaker 4: what to expect. Instead of Wow, I don't know what 785 00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:07,320 Speaker 4: to make of you, how interesting, how how beautiful, it's 786 00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:08,880 Speaker 4: it's like, wow, I don't know what to make of you. 787 00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,319 Speaker 4: I'm now oppositional to you, right, So that sort of 788 00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:15,920 Speaker 4: response is something also that's very like steeped into our culture. 789 00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,040 Speaker 1: Now, speaking of fun, guy, can you tell us a 790 00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:21,480 Speaker 1: little bit about labouls. This This is not a This 791 00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:23,120 Speaker 1: is not something I was familiar with before. 792 00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:25,960 Speaker 4: Sure, they're not a well studied group of fungi, so 793 00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:28,400 Speaker 4: I'm one of only a handful of people in the 794 00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:32,200 Speaker 4: world who study this entire order of fungi, the la 795 00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:36,520 Speaker 4: bulbini Eli's kind of a mouthful. We call them labulls 796 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,799 Speaker 4: for short, so that's a little easier, And they are 797 00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:44,719 Speaker 4: a very diverse lineage of fungi that live and grow 798 00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:48,600 Speaker 4: on insects. People are probably much more familiar with another 799 00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:50,920 Speaker 4: group of fungi that live and grow on insects, the 800 00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:55,360 Speaker 4: cortisce EPs or the zombie fungi, but these are in 801 00:47:55,400 --> 00:48:01,200 Speaker 4: the same phylum but completely different orders and classes. So labouls, 802 00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:05,400 Speaker 4: some of them we believe to be parasitic. We believe 803 00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:10,240 Speaker 4: they take nutrients from the insect host at the insects expense, 804 00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:13,799 Speaker 4: but others seem to be maybe more commensal. Like we 805 00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:17,640 Speaker 4: haven't been able to quantify any sort of damage they're 806 00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:20,239 Speaker 4: doing to the host, and the host seems kind of 807 00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:24,600 Speaker 4: able to just go about its life as normal. But 808 00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:28,239 Speaker 4: in any case, they're really interesting fungi if you can 809 00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:28,799 Speaker 4: believe it. 810 00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:31,560 Speaker 3: There's tens of thousands of species. 811 00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:34,960 Speaker 4: Of this order, which just is, you know, the biodiversity 812 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,960 Speaker 4: is just staggering, right, So a group of funge i've 813 00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,040 Speaker 4: never heard of living their lives in insects, and there's 814 00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:42,640 Speaker 4: just tens of thousands of species of them, and they're 815 00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:46,319 Speaker 4: really small. They sometimes can be sort of detected with 816 00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:48,440 Speaker 4: the naked eye, but usually you need at least a 817 00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:52,080 Speaker 4: hand lens. And then the most common way to find 818 00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:55,960 Speaker 4: them is looking at insects under a dissecting microscope. And 819 00:48:56,000 --> 00:49:00,920 Speaker 4: they grow outward from the exterior of the insect. Multicellular. 820 00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:06,000 Speaker 4: They're really flexible and durable. They're not like ephemeral, so 821 00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:09,400 Speaker 4: once they grow there, they you know, are there until 822 00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:13,200 Speaker 4: they die. Essentially, they're not like coming up and out 823 00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:17,560 Speaker 4: of the insect. Body, they form, the spore basically lands 824 00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:22,800 Speaker 4: on the exterior of the insect, and then some minute 825 00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:27,680 Speaker 4: penetrative cells germinate from that and enter just like shallowly 826 00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:31,520 Speaker 4: into the insect body and form kind of like an anchor. 827 00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:36,000 Speaker 4: And then from that, you know, a few dozen cells 828 00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:40,560 Speaker 4: will form in a definitive structure, so meaning they always 829 00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:44,600 Speaker 4: they're they're not amorphous. They have a pretty defined cellular 830 00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:48,560 Speaker 4: growth pattern, and so when we do taxonomy on these fungi, 831 00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:53,839 Speaker 4: we are looking at more Our morphological descriptions involve draw 832 00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:58,000 Speaker 4: you know, understanding the exact cell like shape, size, and arrangement, 833 00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:02,280 Speaker 4: and this is highly variable. There are like really thousands 834 00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:04,800 Speaker 4: of ways these fungi can present itself, but it's pretty 835 00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,919 Speaker 4: fixed within a species, and even within a genus there's 836 00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:13,000 Speaker 4: like very common body plans, and so we also would 837 00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:17,400 Speaker 4: use genetic DNA sequencing to do the taxonomic work on 838 00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:20,799 Speaker 4: these fungi. But they're just really I mean, they're What 839 00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:25,759 Speaker 4: I love about them is that they are so quietly 840 00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:30,440 Speaker 4: existing in this tremendous diversity. They're the most diverse lineage 841 00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:33,520 Speaker 4: of insect associated fungi. So you have, you know, the 842 00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:36,799 Speaker 4: incredible diversity of the insect world, and then on that 843 00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:40,040 Speaker 4: you have this other whole realm of species that are 844 00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:42,799 Speaker 4: you know, have evolved and are living and dying and 845 00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:46,480 Speaker 4: I'm pretty much unbeknownst to you know, any witnesses, And 846 00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:48,360 Speaker 4: to me, that's just a very like That's one of 847 00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:51,520 Speaker 4: the things I love about studying biodiversity, and of these 848 00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:54,279 Speaker 4: fungi in particular. It's just that they they are really 849 00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:58,919 Speaker 4: kind of uninterested to project a little anthropomorphically on them. 850 00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:01,600 Speaker 3: They're just you know, they're here whether or not. 851 00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:03,719 Speaker 4: People are, and this like and this, and it kind 852 00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:06,799 Speaker 4: of really reminds you of It makes me think as 853 00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:10,239 Speaker 4: a person, like, while the world like is so dynamic 854 00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:12,920 Speaker 4: and it has was here before me and will be 855 00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:15,360 Speaker 4: here after me, and there's all these processes going on 856 00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:18,480 Speaker 4: that really are kind of be apart from the the 857 00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:21,520 Speaker 4: so like my social perception, you know, and I just 858 00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:24,759 Speaker 4: think that can be kind of calming and and meditative. 859 00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:27,839 Speaker 4: But I really like working with them because I get 860 00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:30,160 Speaker 4: to also work with insects, so it brings me into 861 00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:33,759 Speaker 4: contact with multiple kingdoms of life in this really intimate way. 862 00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:36,480 Speaker 3: I love doing microscopy. I love being like kind. 863 00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,360 Speaker 4: Of immersed in the micro world, so going back to 864 00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:42,440 Speaker 4: the microcosmos, I get to you know, getting to stare 865 00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:46,880 Speaker 4: at the the an insect under the microscope a dissecting 866 00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:49,759 Speaker 4: scope is so fun. You really see like all of 867 00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:54,239 Speaker 4: its elaborate, uh evolutionary you know, all the appendages and 868 00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:58,239 Speaker 4: hairs and colors, and and it's it's you can it 869 00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:00,879 Speaker 4: makes you feel like in touch with these this whole 870 00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:04,799 Speaker 4: other realm. And then what's really exciting about being a 871 00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:08,960 Speaker 4: micologist is that there are because we've only described you know, 872 00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:13,920 Speaker 4: around we estimate three to five percent of fungal species diversity, 873 00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:19,400 Speaker 4: there's no shortage of new species descriptions that can be authored. 874 00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:21,719 Speaker 4: So I get to you know, been able to name 875 00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:25,440 Speaker 4: and describe about a dozen species new species to science, 876 00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:28,320 Speaker 4: all within this group, the lavelbni aleies. 877 00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:30,040 Speaker 3: So that's a fun thing too. 878 00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:32,560 Speaker 4: It's like you can say, you can say pretty definitively 879 00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:35,239 Speaker 4: that you know, a person has not looked upon this 880 00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:38,200 Speaker 4: fungus before because a no one is looking for them, 881 00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:40,239 Speaker 4: and also because you need a microscope to see it, 882 00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:42,080 Speaker 4: so it's just not likely that someone would have just 883 00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:43,040 Speaker 4: bumped into it. 884 00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:45,480 Speaker 3: You know, there there. You have to be looking for. 885 00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:48,920 Speaker 4: Them to find them, so it's just kind of a 886 00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:53,440 Speaker 4: fun opportunity for me to like be contributing taxonomically. And 887 00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:56,360 Speaker 4: then also one thing that I like about being a 888 00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:01,640 Speaker 4: taxonomist is that the practice of naming. And you know, 889 00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:06,600 Speaker 4: taxonomy does have a complicated history in terms of ethics, 890 00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:08,600 Speaker 4: and you know, all of these forces that we've been 891 00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:13,960 Speaker 4: talking about, you know, sort of around colonialism and power 892 00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:16,040 Speaker 4: and who gets to, you know, put a name on 893 00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:19,600 Speaker 4: something and in what language. So one thing I like 894 00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:23,600 Speaker 4: to think about is taxonomy as a practice of honoring, 895 00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:27,480 Speaker 4: So not stamping your authority on it, as like an 896 00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:31,760 Speaker 4: act of I guess possession, but being like, okay, here, 897 00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:35,080 Speaker 4: this is a species that I share the planet with. 898 00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:37,560 Speaker 4: This is a species who's been on this multi billion 899 00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:40,759 Speaker 4: year journey like every other species here, And how can 900 00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:43,600 Speaker 4: we sort of honor its diversity, regardless of its role 901 00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:48,560 Speaker 4: in doesn't matter if this fungus is of utility to me. 902 00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:49,640 Speaker 3: Or to people like it. 903 00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:54,200 Speaker 4: It's here, it exists, It is complex and dynamic and 904 00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:57,000 Speaker 4: worthy of a name. So I like to think of 905 00:53:57,320 --> 00:53:59,759 Speaker 4: naming as a system of like as a practice of 906 00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:03,560 Speaker 4: honoring other the existence of and the sort of what 907 00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:04,880 Speaker 4: I like to think of as sort of like the 908 00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:08,200 Speaker 4: agency and almost like personhood of another being. Right to 909 00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:12,719 Speaker 4: name is to sort of acknowledge that complexity. And it's 910 00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:15,600 Speaker 4: also an opportunity to sort of embody some of the 911 00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:18,440 Speaker 4: practices that I think have been missing in the field 912 00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:21,120 Speaker 4: of taxonomy, which would be to name things, you know, 913 00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:24,880 Speaker 4: perhaps based on using indigenous languages, from the location that 914 00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,520 Speaker 4: organism was found, or from you know, you know, naming 915 00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:32,880 Speaker 4: scientists who've been forgotten or were you know, sort of 916 00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:35,799 Speaker 4: like acknowledging like the complexity of the human life that 917 00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:37,960 Speaker 4: might surround the procurement of. 918 00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:39,280 Speaker 3: That species in the first place. 919 00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:44,680 Speaker 4: So yeah, that that's sort of a fun thing that 920 00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:46,799 Speaker 4: I can do with with libules. 921 00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:51,200 Speaker 1: Now, you mentioned the cord of steps, and I want 922 00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:53,799 Speaker 1: to highlight that you you do. You did appear on 923 00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:57,520 Speaker 1: Science Friday to discuss uh the fund these particular fun 924 00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:01,160 Speaker 1: guy uh and hbos, the last which of course has this, 925 00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:04,600 Speaker 1: I guess you'd say, like very sort of you know, 926 00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:08,040 Speaker 1: of course, a fantastic Sci Fi treatment of Courtyceps. It's 927 00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:13,800 Speaker 1: very micophobic in its manifestation. But I do refer listeners 928 00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:16,200 Speaker 1: to that interview if they want to they want like 929 00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:17,120 Speaker 1: the full story. 930 00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:21,800 Speaker 4: Yes, yes, I sort fungal fact from fiction on that episode. 931 00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:24,320 Speaker 1: As we're I believe we're about to go into the 932 00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:27,120 Speaker 1: second season of the Last of Us, any like quick 933 00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:31,520 Speaker 1: reminders for folks about Courtyceps and sort of disconnecting the 934 00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:33,520 Speaker 1: fantasy from the reality totally. 935 00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:37,080 Speaker 4: Yes, So I've been asked a number of times like 936 00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:42,400 Speaker 4: could people be turned into zombies by a fungus as 937 00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:47,879 Speaker 4: they are in the show, And the answers know that 938 00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:52,439 Speaker 4: these fungi and the insect hosts that they evolved on 939 00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:57,799 Speaker 4: were in a you know, co evolutionary dynamic for millions 940 00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:03,480 Speaker 4: of years, and that's how the fungus is perfectly adapted, 941 00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:06,120 Speaker 4: not just to like insects broadly, or not even just 942 00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,520 Speaker 4: to like, you know, a whole group of insects, but 943 00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:12,520 Speaker 4: specific species of insects. So, for example, Cordyceps could be 944 00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:15,319 Speaker 4: found on a number of species of ants, but there 945 00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:18,240 Speaker 4: are ants other ant species that live in and amongst 946 00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:20,960 Speaker 4: you know, those in the areas that Courtyceps grows, and 947 00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:24,160 Speaker 4: they're not affected because they have you know, the subtle 948 00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:29,280 Speaker 4: differences in behavior or chemical ecology is enough that it's 949 00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:34,480 Speaker 4: incompatible with that very precise co evolutionary dynamic. In order 950 00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:38,920 Speaker 4: for fungi to evolve to be doing that to people, 951 00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:44,520 Speaker 4: we would need probably millions and millions of years of exposures. 952 00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:49,360 Speaker 4: And our our just bryologies are so different from our ants, 953 00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:51,439 Speaker 4: so we're not really at risk in that way. 954 00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:54,799 Speaker 3: I do really like the show. I think it's a 955 00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:55,560 Speaker 3: great story. 956 00:56:56,120 --> 00:57:00,200 Speaker 4: It is a little challenging that fungi are demoni is 957 00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:03,120 Speaker 4: obviously that's kind of kind of you know, stressful for me. 958 00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:06,480 Speaker 4: But from a from a storytelling perspective and from an 959 00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:07,760 Speaker 4: action perspective. 960 00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:08,040 Speaker 3: It is a great show. 961 00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:11,799 Speaker 1: Yeah. My my wife is a mushroom enthusiast and and 962 00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:15,400 Speaker 1: does like some mushroom club stuff and forging stuff, and 963 00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:17,840 Speaker 1: so I'll often I would often joke to her after 964 00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:19,760 Speaker 1: we'd watch an episode of the show about, oh, well, 965 00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:22,120 Speaker 1: mushrooms are bad news. I got to be watch out 966 00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:22,840 Speaker 1: for those mushrooms. 967 00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:25,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good way to get under her skin, 968 00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:27,000 Speaker 4: I'm sure. 969 00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:31,360 Speaker 1: Now coming back to the book again, there's a lot. 970 00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:34,120 Speaker 1: There's a lot about science in there. There's also a 971 00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:38,040 Speaker 1: lot of lately a personal interpretation of everything, and you 972 00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:41,160 Speaker 1: get into the philosophy of it all. Can you take 973 00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:43,240 Speaker 1: a moment to tell us what a sit spot is 974 00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:47,040 Speaker 1: and how that can potentially help us all in our 975 00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:47,760 Speaker 1: daily lives. 976 00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:54,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, so a sit spot is a place you go regularly. 977 00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:57,320 Speaker 4: I mean it could be every day, it could be 978 00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:00,280 Speaker 4: once a month, but it's something that you do with 979 00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:03,720 Speaker 4: some sort of routine and frequency. And it can be 980 00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:08,480 Speaker 4: deep in the forest, it could be in an urban park, 981 00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:10,560 Speaker 4: it could be looking out your window if you're someone 982 00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:14,200 Speaker 4: who can't leave the house or can't do so easily. 983 00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:17,280 Speaker 4: So it's not really about being in you know this 984 00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:21,680 Speaker 4: quote wilderness, It's just about being in community with as 985 00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:26,400 Speaker 4: many species as possible. So I have I'm a teacher. 986 00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:30,680 Speaker 4: I've taught college classes and nature classes, and I have 987 00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:34,600 Speaker 4: one thing I tried I often incorporate into my classes 988 00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:35,680 Speaker 4: is having. 989 00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:36,840 Speaker 3: My students do a sit spot. 990 00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:39,640 Speaker 4: And the instructions I give is to start by going 991 00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:41,840 Speaker 4: once a week. I think once a week is a 992 00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:43,920 Speaker 4: nice amount of time because it's both like kind of 993 00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:47,240 Speaker 4: reasonable for our hectic schedules, but it's also frequent enough 994 00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:50,640 Speaker 4: that you it can kind of become like. 995 00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:51,800 Speaker 3: A personal ritual. 996 00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:57,160 Speaker 4: And when you what I advise you do is that 997 00:58:57,200 --> 00:58:59,840 Speaker 4: you go to your sit spot and you go buy 998 00:58:59,840 --> 00:59:00,480 Speaker 4: your self. 999 00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:02,040 Speaker 3: I think I do think it. 1000 00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:03,840 Speaker 4: I mean, it's not that you can't go with a buddy, 1001 00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:06,680 Speaker 4: but I think it's really nice to go totally to 1002 00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:09,960 Speaker 4: be the only human right in that spot. And I 1003 00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:16,040 Speaker 4: also recommend that you don't bring anything at first. The 1004 00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:18,880 Speaker 4: first couple spot times, I wouldn't even bring a notebook. 1005 00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:22,760 Speaker 4: I wouldn't bring anything but just some stuff, maybe some water, 1006 00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:25,600 Speaker 4: maybe a snack if you're you know, but just try 1007 00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:27,919 Speaker 4: to go with you know, keep your phone away, don't 1008 00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:30,880 Speaker 4: try to take pictures, don't try to record anything, and 1009 00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:34,280 Speaker 4: just be present. And I would recommend the first time 1010 00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:36,840 Speaker 4: doing it for at least thirty minutes. You go, you 1011 00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:40,760 Speaker 4: sit for thirty minutes, and you take note as of 1012 00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:43,960 Speaker 4: everything around you. What do you smell, what do you 1013 00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:47,400 Speaker 4: take touch with your fingertips, what do you see? Of course, 1014 00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:50,880 Speaker 4: what do you hear? Kind of roll through the senses, 1015 00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:52,880 Speaker 4: you know, go, Okay, what am I hearing right now? 1016 00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:56,600 Speaker 3: Wait? What am I seeing right now? You know? Look around? 1017 00:59:56,640 --> 00:59:58,000 Speaker 3: What am I smelling right now? 1018 00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:00,479 Speaker 4: Maybe you're sitting on a bench, or maybe you're sitting 1019 01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:03,600 Speaker 4: on the forest floor, Like what are your fingertips sensing? 1020 01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:07,080 Speaker 3: And kind of go let yourself sort of move through that. 1021 01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:09,919 Speaker 4: My students will tell me that the first few times 1022 01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:12,600 Speaker 4: they did it, they were incredibly bored. The time for 1023 01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:15,320 Speaker 4: them moved very slowly. They were actually some of them 1024 01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:22,200 Speaker 4: were even detectively irritated with the assignment. But as the 1025 01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:26,680 Speaker 4: weeks progressed, one hundred percent of the students began to 1026 01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:30,880 Speaker 4: enjoy their time. And then after a few weeks you 1027 01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:33,120 Speaker 4: start you may maybe you decide, maybe you're an artist 1028 01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:35,440 Speaker 4: and you love illustrating. Maybe you bring a notebook and 1029 01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:38,280 Speaker 4: you sketch some of the plans that are growing. Maybe 1030 01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:41,880 Speaker 4: you're you like your sound person, you bring an audio 1031 01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:45,480 Speaker 4: way to record some audio. But maybe you decide, or 1032 01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:48,280 Speaker 4: maybe you're I wouldn't I wouldn't do too much writing 1033 01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:50,680 Speaker 4: while you're there, because you do want to be mentally 1034 01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:55,040 Speaker 4: loose and receptive. So whatever, and that's that does look 1035 01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:57,920 Speaker 4: different for everyone. So however, you can be in a 1036 01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:00,840 Speaker 4: state of looseness and receptivity, to be porous, to be 1037 01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:03,720 Speaker 4: receiving this sort of the energy and the sort of 1038 01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:07,760 Speaker 4: information that's flowing from these other species and from the wind, 1039 01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:11,960 Speaker 4: from the humidity, you know, whatever it is. And so 1040 01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:14,560 Speaker 4: I think that over time, the point is that you 1041 01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:20,640 Speaker 4: become really immersed and really in tune with that spot. 1042 01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:23,000 Speaker 4: So I think in the age of climate change and 1043 01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:26,400 Speaker 4: the age of globalization, it can be really really overwhelming 1044 01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:29,240 Speaker 4: to understand where where do you put your focus? Right, 1045 01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:33,920 Speaker 4: There's so many crises, there's so many stressors, there's so 1046 01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:37,680 Speaker 4: many things drawing and pulling at your attention, and so 1047 01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:40,880 Speaker 4: this is like kind of a practice of attention. Where 1048 01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:44,560 Speaker 4: do you give your attention in an intentional way and 1049 01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:47,720 Speaker 4: how does that sort of make you feel held and 1050 01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:52,960 Speaker 4: attuned with the other organisms around you. I also had 1051 01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:55,680 Speaker 4: a number of students actually cry at the end of 1052 01:01:55,720 --> 01:01:57,880 Speaker 4: the semester when they had to leave their spots. They 1053 01:01:57,880 --> 01:01:59,720 Speaker 4: were graduating or they had to leave for the summer 1054 01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:02,960 Speaker 4: it was, and they were like, I can't believe I 1055 01:02:03,040 --> 01:02:05,000 Speaker 4: have to leave this spot, Like this is my spot, 1056 01:02:05,080 --> 01:02:08,360 Speaker 4: this is like my place. And that happened just in 1057 01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:10,960 Speaker 4: a few months, right, that's just the duration of a 1058 01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:14,920 Speaker 4: college semester. And so for a lot of people it's 1059 01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:20,440 Speaker 4: an opportunity to become immersed, to be but also to 1060 01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:23,600 Speaker 4: be like a steward, right. You suddenly may the more 1061 01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:25,720 Speaker 4: you pay attention to a spot, the more you see. 1062 01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:28,120 Speaker 4: So it's not just that you're there longer, So it's 1063 01:02:28,160 --> 01:02:30,880 Speaker 4: like a you know, an exponential line of like you're 1064 01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:33,960 Speaker 4: there longer, so you're seeing more, but you're actually like 1065 01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:37,640 Speaker 4: it's actually that your brain starts to rewire a little bit. 1066 01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:39,040 Speaker 3: Especially if this practice is. 1067 01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:41,600 Speaker 4: Really new to you, You start to be a you 1068 01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:44,520 Speaker 4: actually are capable of noticing more the more you sort 1069 01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:48,520 Speaker 4: of engage with this meditatively. And so for some people 1070 01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:52,520 Speaker 4: that can it can help you find a role in 1071 01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:56,520 Speaker 4: what is otherwise a very crazy world. Right, how do 1072 01:02:56,520 --> 01:02:58,800 Speaker 4: you become a steward of your own backyard? Like how 1073 01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:01,560 Speaker 4: can you care for that species? Like maybe you're helping 1074 01:03:01,640 --> 01:03:06,800 Speaker 4: monitor the health of the trees in that area. Maybe 1075 01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:10,760 Speaker 4: you're realizing that there's a ton of there's a you're 1076 01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:15,240 Speaker 4: seeing all these salamanders or amphibians and that actually, oh, 1077 01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:17,880 Speaker 4: actually this is like a vernal pool and this could 1078 01:03:17,880 --> 01:03:23,040 Speaker 4: be protected because you know, by local legislation. There's all 1079 01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:25,000 Speaker 4: sorts of ways that you can sort of tune into 1080 01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:27,480 Speaker 4: the life around you and then actually do something to 1081 01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:31,000 Speaker 4: help care for it. So I definitely recommend it. I 1082 01:03:31,000 --> 01:03:33,240 Speaker 4: think it's such a nice way of like sort of 1083 01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:38,160 Speaker 4: I find it really peaceful and therapeutic and sort of 1084 01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:41,320 Speaker 4: a bomb for my nervous system every time I go 1085 01:03:41,400 --> 01:03:42,720 Speaker 4: to my sit spot. 1086 01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:43,480 Speaker 3: So I recommend it. 1087 01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:45,840 Speaker 1: Awesome. Yeah, I'm gonna have to try it as well, 1088 01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:48,120 Speaker 1: because I go out of nature, we go on walks 1089 01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:50,760 Speaker 1: and hikes and all. But this kind of like intentional 1090 01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:56,800 Speaker 1: meditative approach, setting aside so many distractions and tasks and objectives. 1091 01:03:57,160 --> 01:03:59,000 Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, I think it's truly attractive. 1092 01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:01,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, take a little while to like not be a 1093 01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:05,320 Speaker 4: little bored, but that's really normal that we're all kind of, 1094 01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:08,480 Speaker 4: you know, overstimulated, So it could take a little bit 1095 01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:12,160 Speaker 4: of time, but I can assure you that you'll enjoy 1096 01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:13,960 Speaker 4: it as the ritual is established. 1097 01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:19,400 Speaker 1: Awesome. Well, the book is Forest Euphoria, The Abounding Queerness 1098 01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:21,840 Speaker 1: of Nature. It's out next month in all formats, but 1099 01:04:21,880 --> 01:04:24,600 Speaker 1: available for pre order right now. What is the one 1100 01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:27,880 Speaker 1: thing you want readers to get out of Forest Euphoria? 1101 01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:28,960 Speaker 3: So, I think. 1102 01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:32,680 Speaker 4: Actually the sit Spot conversation is kind of closest to 1103 01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:35,000 Speaker 4: what I want readers to get out of it. I 1104 01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:39,560 Speaker 4: think that I want readers to feel closer to nature. 1105 01:04:41,360 --> 01:04:43,400 Speaker 4: I want readers to feel it like they are part 1106 01:04:43,440 --> 01:04:45,640 Speaker 4: of nature and nature is part of them, and these 1107 01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:50,280 Speaker 4: are things that will strengthen each other like that knowledge 1108 01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:52,040 Speaker 4: I find is strengthening. 1109 01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:53,920 Speaker 3: It's something that's comforting. 1110 01:04:54,880 --> 01:05:00,400 Speaker 4: It is a magnetic compass in a time of you know, 1111 01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:05,200 Speaker 4: poly crises. So I want people to feel that they belong, 1112 01:05:06,040 --> 01:05:09,640 Speaker 4: their differences are what make them a part of this 1113 01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:13,240 Speaker 4: ecology that you know, Ecology is. 1114 01:05:13,240 --> 01:05:14,280 Speaker 3: All about difference. 1115 01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:17,840 Speaker 4: It's all about multiple, multiple ways of being in forms, 1116 01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:23,360 Speaker 4: and so to not feel shame around that. And I 1117 01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:28,160 Speaker 4: want people to, you know, see that nature is really 1118 01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:28,720 Speaker 4: all we have. 1119 01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:30,000 Speaker 3: There's nothing without it. 1120 01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:32,919 Speaker 4: I'm sure a lot of my readers will already be 1121 01:05:33,120 --> 01:05:35,960 Speaker 4: environmentalists and people committed to the protection of nature, but 1122 01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:38,680 Speaker 4: maybe it'll bring some more people into that fold as well, 1123 01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:41,760 Speaker 4: or strengthen that someone's commitment to that. 1124 01:05:42,680 --> 01:05:44,400 Speaker 1: All right, well, Patti, thanks for coming on the show 1125 01:05:44,400 --> 01:05:45,040 Speaker 1: and chatting with me. 1126 01:05:45,400 --> 01:05:47,280 Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it's 1127 01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:48,120 Speaker 3: fun to talk to you. Rob. 1128 01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:53,280 Speaker 1: Thanks again to Patty for coming on the show. The 1129 01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:57,400 Speaker 1: book again is Forrest Euphoria The Abounding Queerness of Nature, 1130 01:05:57,640 --> 01:06:00,280 Speaker 1: publishing next month and available for pre order in all 1131 01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:03,360 Speaker 1: formatch right now. Again. You'll find a pre order link 1132 01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:06,040 Speaker 1: in the episode description, or you can look it up 1133 01:06:06,320 --> 01:06:10,320 Speaker 1: at Spiegel and Grau dot com, slash Forest hyphen Euphoria. 1134 01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:13,040 Speaker 1: Just a reminder that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 1135 01:06:13,080 --> 01:06:15,640 Speaker 1: primarily a science and culture podcast, with core episodes on 1136 01:06:15,640 --> 01:06:19,120 Speaker 1: Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Fridays, we set aside most serious 1137 01:06:19,120 --> 01:06:22,120 Speaker 1: concerns to just talk about a weird film on Weird 1138 01:06:22,160 --> 01:06:25,480 Speaker 1: House Cinema. Thanks as always to the excellent Jjpossway for 1139 01:06:25,560 --> 01:06:27,360 Speaker 1: producing the show, and if you'd like to get in 1140 01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:29,800 Speaker 1: touch with us, you can shoot us an email at 1141 01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:40,320 Speaker 1: contact at stuff to blow your Mind dot com. 1142 01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:43,360 Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 1143 01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:46,200 Speaker 2: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 1144 01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:59,520 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows. 1145 01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:01,000 Speaker 1: Get to WAT to get