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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Bridget and this is Annie and you're

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Speaker 1: listening the stuff mom ever told you? We have a

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Speaker 1: another update episode for you. Um, this is about Larry Nastir,

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Speaker 1: the Larry NaSTA case. Um. You and Emily covered this

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Speaker 1: a little while back. We did. It was an intense, intense,

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Speaker 1: intense episode. You may recall that the disgraced former USA

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Speaker 1: Gymnastics and Michigan State University doctor was sentenced to forty

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Speaker 1: to a hundred seventy five years in prison after more

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Speaker 1: than a hundred and fifty women and girls set in

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Speaker 1: court that he sexually abused them over the past two decades. Well,

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Speaker 1: now we have some new information about just how complicit

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Speaker 1: USA Gymnastics was in enabling the situation. Yes, they were

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Speaker 1: portly enabling the doctors in appropriate behavior. Um. Leading up

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Speaker 1: to the Olympics, when NASA was under investigation for child

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Speaker 1: sexual abuse, the doctor and a USA Gymnastics attorney conceived

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Speaker 1: of cover stories to explain NASA's absence at two major events,

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Speaker 1: rather than divulged to parents and athletes that the doctor

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Speaker 1: was under investigation. That's right. In one of the emails

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Speaker 1: obtained by The Star, Indianapolis attorney Scott D. Himsel told

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Speaker 1: NASA that while USA Gymnastics was reviewing his quote, therapy techniques,

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Speaker 1: which we know we're just gross illegal miscarriages of trust

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Speaker 1: and you know, abuses of power and sexual abuse. Well,

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Speaker 1: USA Gymnastics actually said that it was in quote everyone's

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Speaker 1: best interest, and he tells people that he was skipping

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Speaker 1: the event for personal reasons. Now in these emails, NASA replied,

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Speaker 1: can be to say that I'm sick? It would make

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Speaker 1: more sense to everyone? Would that be okay? We'll let

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Speaker 1: Ron know to advise people that you weren't feeling well

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Speaker 1: and decided to say home himself responded on July twenty, two,

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Speaker 1: thousand and fifteen. So basically, rather than tell people the

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Speaker 1: truth about what was happening, which was that he was

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Speaker 1: being accused of horrific and widespread sexual abuse of athletes,

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Speaker 1: they allowed him to say that he was sick and

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Speaker 1: that's why he was not going to these Olympic events.

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Speaker 1: Yeah makes my skin crawl. Um. On another occasion, on

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Speaker 1: July twenty nine, at which point USA Gymnastics had reported

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Speaker 1: NaSTA to the FBI, himself asked NASA to skip the

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Speaker 1: U S, A, P and G Championships, to which NASA

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Speaker 1: wrote back, if I'm not going to be at the Championships,

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Speaker 1: then it is due to financial reasons with my clinical practice,

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Speaker 1: which is an accurate statement. Gross So you know, us

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Speaker 1: A Gymnastics can say all they want that they weren't involved,

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Speaker 1: they didn't know, blah blah blah. To me, this seems

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Speaker 1: like the smoking gun that that wasn't the case. These

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Speaker 1: people knew, may enabled it. And really, I mean, they

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Speaker 1: could have put a stop to this because they knew,

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Speaker 1: and they chose not to. Yeah, they chose to cover

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Speaker 1: it up instead. So let's hear more about why that

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Speaker 1: was such a horrible choice. Now today we have to

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Speaker 1: give a trigger warning and because we're going to be

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Speaker 1: discussing the absolutely intense case of Olympic gymnast doctor Larry Nasser.

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Speaker 1: So if that's going to be something that's tough for

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Speaker 1: you to listen to, just know that's what we're talking

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Speaker 1: about today. Now you probably have seen what happened with

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Speaker 1: this case. It's one that I think really illustrates the

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Speaker 1: magnitude to which someone can go on abusing women and

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Speaker 1: girls for a very very long time with very very

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Speaker 1: little consequence. I mean, one of the biggest questions for

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Speaker 1: this case, which we'll get into, is how many people

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Speaker 1: seem to apparently have been complicit in allowing this to continue,

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Speaker 1: which the question now is what level of complicity is

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Speaker 1: criminal exactly. A lot of people have been comparing it

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Speaker 1: to the Penn State Jerry Sandusky situation, which, interestingly enough,

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Speaker 1: I saw a lot of journalists and folks on Twitter

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Speaker 1: asking when this thing was just sort of bubbling up

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Speaker 1: and people weren't really talking about it that much. The

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Speaker 1: Penn State situation was such a huge story and scandal

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Speaker 1: as it should have been. Why did it take so

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Speaker 1: long for this to gather steam. Why did this story

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Speaker 1: which had been out there for a while, why was

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Speaker 1: it not a similar thing? It also just puts another

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Speaker 1: thing on the list of things that enraged me about

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Speaker 1: how much higher education is failing women. Oh, absolutely, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: when you think about the fact that very likely, you know,

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Speaker 1: a college Michigan State University was letting these women and

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Speaker 1: girls be abused without really doing a lot to stop it.

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Speaker 1: When you think about that, it really I mean, you

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Speaker 1: send someone to a doctor to help them, to take

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Speaker 1: care of them, and if they were knowingly putting these

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Speaker 1: girls in harm's way, it's just you really look at

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Speaker 1: the university and you say, what do you do? How

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Speaker 1: did you let this continue? So wait, let's take a

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Speaker 1: step backward. Let's review sort of baseline of the case.

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Speaker 1: What happened? Why did this make the news so dramatically?

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Speaker 1: So basically, here's what went down. Nasser was the team

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Speaker 1: doctor for USA Gymnastics, and through four Olympic Games he

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Speaker 1: treated hopeful young gymnasts and gold medal winners alike. He

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Speaker 1: treated people that you probably have heard of if you

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Speaker 1: follow gymnastics at all. I'm talking folks like Gabby Douglas, MICHAELA. Moroney,

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Speaker 1: Ali Riceman, So he was really dealing with some of

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Speaker 1: the biggest athletes in the world. He also worked for

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Speaker 1: Michigan State University from to twenty sixteen as an associate

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Speaker 1: professor and served as the gymnastics and women's crew team physician.

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Speaker 1: So basically, under the guise of medical treatments, he had

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Speaker 1: been digitally penetrating women and girls under his care for

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Speaker 1: quite some time. So they would go in for, you know,

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Speaker 1: to get medical help, and he would put his finger

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Speaker 1: inside of them and tell them it was some sort

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Speaker 1: of a special treatment to realign you know, their body, right.

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Speaker 1: And part of what made this so enraging the fact

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Speaker 1: that he was a very well known and beloved doctor

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Speaker 1: in the community. Right. So what's scary about this is

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Speaker 1: this is a person who used his power and his

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Speaker 1: sort of persuasive persona to befriend people, make people feel

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Speaker 1: like they could trust him, to use his position of

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Speaker 1: power as a medical professional to completely violate the medical

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Speaker 1: Professions Code of ethics of doing no harm. Absolutely. There's

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Speaker 1: this podcast, it's very very popular in the gymnastics community

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Speaker 1: called gym Castic, and he's actually in an episode of

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Speaker 1: that podcast that I listened to in preparation for this episode,

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Speaker 1: and you really see that he presented himself as the

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Speaker 1: good guy right the community. He was beloved by this community,

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Speaker 1: and in a sport that is so focused on women

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Speaker 1: person themselves to their physical limits, he very likely gained

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Speaker 1: their trust by presenting himself as someone who cared about

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Speaker 1: their physicality, someone who talked about their mental health and

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Speaker 1: emotional health. And listen to that podcast, you know it's

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Speaker 1: it's so creepy after the fact, so I do how

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Speaker 1: you can recommend listening to it because it's so creepy,

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Speaker 1: But you see the way that he used that to

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Speaker 1: gain trust, you see, the way that he used that

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Speaker 1: to sort of gain that status that we give doctors

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Speaker 1: in our communities. Yes, and back in November, he pled

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Speaker 1: guilty to ten charges of molestation and in a separate case,

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Speaker 1: was found guilty of having more than thirty seven thousand

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Speaker 1: images and videos of child pornography found on his computer.

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Speaker 1: So this guy is a world class can creep, Yes,

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Speaker 1: honestly is. So these allegations weren't really taken seriously until August,

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Speaker 1: when former gymnast Rachel Denhillander became the first person that

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Speaker 1: foult a criminal complaint against him. And what's so enraging

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Speaker 1: is that it took until sixteen to bring this guy

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Speaker 1: to court for these charges after he's been doing this

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Speaker 1: since nineteen, he admits, And there were so many opportunities

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Speaker 1: to take action, and all of the governing organizations that

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Speaker 1: he was involved with failed to do so despite concerns

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Speaker 1: and complaints. So back in n seven or mid a

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Speaker 1: gymnast alleges that she complained to the MSCU gymnastics coach

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Speaker 1: Kathy Klages, saying that she was concerned at the time

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Speaker 1: about NASA's treatments. Klages discouraged her from filling a formal

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Speaker 1: complaint and informed Nasser of the conversation, basically going straight

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Speaker 1: to the guy who she's trying to report. And this

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Speaker 1: person who's reporting is a teenager at the time, who

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Speaker 1: are then coach dissuades from reporting, right, So the power

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Speaker 1: dynamic there is something to take into consideration. A teenage

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Speaker 1: child says there's something wrong here, her coach goes to

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Speaker 1: the person she's reporting, tattles on her, which is a

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Speaker 1: totally wrong thing to do, want to talk about a

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Speaker 1: violation of trust, and then discourages her from making any

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Speaker 1: kind of formal complaint instead of maybe listening. You see

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Speaker 1: that time and time again in this case, for several

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Speaker 1: years in n and again in two thousand, an M

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Speaker 1: s U softball player told three athletic trainers that he

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Speaker 1: sexually inappropriately touched her during a medical treatment. She alleges

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Speaker 1: that those trainers dismissed her concerns, and one of them

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Speaker 1: even said that she should feel grateful to be treated

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Speaker 1: by such a world class doctor, an Olympic doctor who

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Speaker 1: quote knew what he was doing. Basically, don't question anyone,

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Speaker 1: and you know what I've been a part of sports

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Speaker 1: leagues throughout my childhood and teenage years in college years,

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Speaker 1: and that kind of blind obedience is drilled into players

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Speaker 1: in a way that sets that kind of arena up

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Speaker 1: for sexual predators to get away with it for years.

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Speaker 1: And it's it's totally wrong. It's totally wrong. I really

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Speaker 1: see so many intersections that allowed this to fester for

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Speaker 1: so long. I think part of it is what you're

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Speaker 1: talking about, where they just drill in that these people

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Speaker 1: know what they're doing. I think part of it is

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Speaker 1: that the elevated place we give medical professionals. I also

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Speaker 1: it's part of it is not taking the complaints and

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Speaker 1: the pain of women and girls seriously, because these athletes

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Speaker 1: did exactly what you're supposed to do in this situation.

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Speaker 1: But you know, they did everything right, they did nothing wrong,

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Speaker 1: and yet their concerns were dismissed again and again and again.

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Speaker 1: And I think you see that so often in situations

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Speaker 1: like this. Yeah, it's it's just a total failure of

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Speaker 1: chain of command to it. It reminds me of sexual

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Speaker 1: assault in the military in a way where soldiers are

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Speaker 1: expected to fall in line and obedience is expected, and

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Speaker 1: if you have a problem with a superior. The avenues

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Speaker 1: for reporting those problems are extremely hard to come by,

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Speaker 1: and there's a total failure when it comes to the

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Speaker 1: chain of command for holding people in positions of power accountable. Well,

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Speaker 1: talk about a failure of a chain of command. Inen

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Speaker 1: The Ingham County Prosecutor's Office actually investigated this doctor after

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Speaker 1: there was a flurry of complaints, and they found that

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Speaker 1: his treatments were quote medically sound, And it just enrages

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Speaker 1: me that they supposedly looked into this and they just

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Speaker 1: found nothing wrong. The fact that this man was not

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Speaker 1: even using a gloved finger to insert his finger inside

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Speaker 1: of people without getting their consent without another person in

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Speaker 1: the room for injured hamstring. Um, No, like, no, you

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Speaker 1: know what I mean, that's there's no it's not like

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Speaker 1: her vagina was broken exactly exactly. You come in for

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Speaker 1: like a headache and he says, I need to do this.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't make any sense. Um. It also needs to

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Speaker 1: be said that one of the people involved in that investigation,

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Speaker 1: Stuart Dudding's, actually resigned himself in March for his own

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Speaker 1: sexual misconduct allegations. So it's really just creeps the whole

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Speaker 1: way down, and it's really enraging, and what's incredible is

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Speaker 1: that rage was clearly put on display this past month

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Speaker 1: when beyond the actual criminal lawsuits and him being found

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Speaker 1: guilty after pleading guilty to all of these charges, this

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Speaker 1: past month, we saw a lurry of viral attention brought

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Speaker 1: to this case because of the sentencing, which is where

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Speaker 1: this story really gets interesting. We'll be right back after

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Speaker 1: this quick break to break it down, and we're back,

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Speaker 1: and I think we can all agree that this person,

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Speaker 1: Larry Nasser, was troublingly allowed to continue lusting women and

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Speaker 1: girls and abusing his power as a medical professional, and

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Speaker 1: that's disgusting and abhorrent and he should be punished for it.

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Speaker 1: I think we can all agree on that. Yeah, hopefully

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Speaker 1: there's not anybody out I mean, maybe other creeps, but

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Speaker 1: hopefully most reasonable non creeps. I think we can all agree.

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Speaker 1: What gets interesting, however, is how this sentencing went down.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that right, Bridget That is an interesting development in

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Speaker 1: this story. So this was a situation where many of

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Speaker 1: us watched the sentencing happened live on television, and I

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Speaker 1: definitely watched it with bated breath, and you really can't

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Speaker 1: help but highlight how It was really a powerful, powerful

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Speaker 1: thing to watch. You had these victims getting up and

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Speaker 1: reading these impact statements about what happened to them. And

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Speaker 1: in fact, The Daily, the podcast by the New York Times,

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Speaker 1: did a really good job of running through some of

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Speaker 1: these powerful testimonies, which is what brought this case into

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Speaker 1: the mainstream. By the way, it's not the fifty some

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Speaker 1: oddcounts of child molestation that brought this case into everybody's

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Speaker 1: collective consciousness. It was the fact that the judge presiding

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Speaker 1: over the sentencing process, Judge rose Marie Aquilina, allowed victims

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Speaker 1: open opportunities, open mic basically, the opportunity to come make

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Speaker 1: a statement that it helps explain to the judge what

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Speaker 1: kind of impact this person's crime has had on their lives.

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Speaker 1: And The Daily did a really great rundown of what

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Speaker 1: a relative, heavily historically new phenomenon that is. And I

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Speaker 1: want to first play a few of the impact statements

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Speaker 1: which have been so moving and so heartbreaking, but so

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Speaker 1: important in the era of me too, of getting this

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Speaker 1: point across of why this was so horrific. I was

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Speaker 1: eleven years old when I first went to see Larry.

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Speaker 1: I was seven years old. I was only twelve. I

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Speaker 1: had been as patient since I was eight years old.

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Speaker 1: The pain you have caused me mentally and emotionally is unexplainable.

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Speaker 1: And I was taught that is not okay for anyone

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Speaker 1: to touch you down there unless it's a doctor, and

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Speaker 1: you were an a world renowned doctor. I mean, the

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Speaker 1: reality is that the reason this case is so newsworthy

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Speaker 1: right now, beyond the horrific nature of how long this

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Speaker 1: total criminal creep was allowed to continue harming women and girls,

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Speaker 1: is the fact that this is an unprecedented amount of

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Speaker 1: victim impact testimony that was not only delivered in the courtroom,

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Speaker 1: but also publicized on television. Yeah. I mean, you actually

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Speaker 1: even saw his lawyer and Larry himself saying, it's not

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Speaker 1: okay that I have to listen to this amount of

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Speaker 1: victim's impact statements. This is too much. It's psychologically damaging. Which, interestingly,

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Speaker 1: that statement from Larry was read aloud in the courtroom

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Speaker 1: by the presiding judge, to the laughter of folks in

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Speaker 1: the courtroom. Because, of course, his pain in this instance,

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Speaker 1: his psychological torture pales in comparison to the damage he's done.

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Speaker 1: But it was a very interesting public shaming of this person,

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Speaker 1: which is understandable and rightful, but from a do you

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Speaker 1: process standpoint, it's it's an interesting development. So here's his

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Speaker 1: letter as read by the judge. Everything wrong there. They

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Speaker 1: feel Hell, that is awful. Hell hath no fury like

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Speaker 1: a woman scorned. By the way that portion of the letter.

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Speaker 1: People gasped when they heard that, because it's such a

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Speaker 1: I mean what, it's such an ignorant demonstration that he

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Speaker 1: has nocking concept of the damage he's actually done and

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Speaker 1: somehow is still justifying his behavior like it's somehow the

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Speaker 1: seven year old girl's fault, like she's a woman scorned

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Speaker 1: and that justifies what he did. Yeah, calling I hadn't

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Speaker 1: even I hadn't even zeroed in on that part of

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Speaker 1: how horrible that is, to say, calling a seven year old,

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Speaker 1: a thirteen year old or fourteen year old that you

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Speaker 1: abused a quote woman scorned. That is really next level,

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Speaker 1: And it really demonstrates that he doesn't understand that he

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Speaker 1: could hear story after story after story of how damaging

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Speaker 1: this was and still say I don't think it was

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Speaker 1: that bad. The media twisted it. Yeah, And honestly, what's

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Speaker 1: interesting is that poured gasoline on this fire. Right that

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Speaker 1: enraged everyone even further, I think, which added to the

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Speaker 1: long list of people who were ready and willing to

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Speaker 1: give their testimony, give their impact statements, and accelerated the

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Speaker 1: attention that this was getting. Everyone was cheering for this

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Speaker 1: guy to go down in flames, understandably. What's interesting is

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Speaker 1: that later on in sentencing he did give another statement

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Speaker 1: that accepted responsibility, and he had sort of come around,

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Speaker 1: or at least maybe his attorney talked to him into

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Speaker 1: writing a better statement, because he really changed his tune.

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Speaker 1: You know, he went from saying, this is psychologically tortuous

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Speaker 1: for me to listen to these victim impact statements too,

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Speaker 1: I understand your pain. I should pay for my crimes.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry for what I did. But only after I

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Speaker 1: think the media attention became even more intense. And this

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Speaker 1: judge was very interestingly emphatic in how she decided to

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Speaker 1: preside over her court. Ran wasn't shame, she was judge.

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Speaker 1: She really had no regard for this man. You could

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Speaker 1: tell she found it as enraging as the rest of

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Speaker 1: us watching at home. She was as piste as we

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Speaker 1: felt in this situation, and she didn't she really didn't

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Speaker 1: hold back to a point to which I almost don't

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Speaker 1: think we see very often. I don't think we see judges.

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Speaker 1: Is that Yeah, I don't think we do. But then

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Speaker 1: then then that's what gives me pause. I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of us wouldn't say this out loud because we

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Speaker 1: want to see this guy go down and flames, myself included.

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Speaker 1: But she's the judge, right, she's the judge who's determining sentencing.

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Speaker 1: She's supposed to be. You know what is that that

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Speaker 1: um that statue of Lady Justice who's thedering, weighing the

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Speaker 1: scales of justice or whatever. And she's up there saying,

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Speaker 1: you know, good for you, you, sister survivors. This is

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Speaker 1: a really important process in your healing process. She's sort

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Speaker 1: of verbally coaching the women who came up to give

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Speaker 1: victim impact statements, which is cool, Like she's saying, this

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Speaker 1: is part of your healing process. You're a serve where

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Speaker 1: you're not a victim. Take your power back on your voice,

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Speaker 1: all of which I agree with. And then she's laughing

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Speaker 1: as she reads this, I'll be it ridiculous statement from

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Speaker 1: Larry Nasser, And you're just like, is that the person

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Speaker 1: that's sentencing this person, is she's supposed to be that

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Speaker 1: flagrant lee. On one side of this issue, I can

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Speaker 1: completely understand where you're coming from. I had some really

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Speaker 1: conflicting feelings about this. On the one hand, I was like, Rara,

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Speaker 1: you tell them, this is our moment. And then I

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Speaker 1: remember a friend of mine said, you know, your little mislefty,

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Speaker 1: look at you like championing the criminal justice system. Look

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Speaker 1: at you watching this gleefully waiting for this guy to

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Speaker 1: go down. Shouldn't you be advocating for the criminal justice

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Speaker 1: system to be more neutral? I thought, yeah, but I don't.

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Speaker 1: I'm not. It was It's hard. It's hard to reconcile.

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Speaker 1: It really is hard to reconcile. I don't understand this

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Speaker 1: queasy feeling that I get. You know, on the one hand,

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Speaker 1: I'm gleefully watching this, and I was so ra Rod

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Speaker 1: if you followed the stuff I've never told you Twitter,

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Speaker 1: I was retweeting everything like yes, yes, yes, yes, And

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Speaker 1: then I took a step back and thought, wait, what

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Speaker 1: am I actually celebrating here? Like I said, okay to

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Speaker 1: watch this, I don't know. I just want I totally

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Speaker 1: understand what you're coming from. And I think the feeling

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Speaker 1: stems from how overdo this justice was? Right. There were

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Speaker 1: so many opportunities for this to be solved, for this

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Speaker 1: justice to be delivered earlier, for hundreds of women and

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Speaker 1: girls to be spared, and so this is long overdue,

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Speaker 1: not to mention, historically overdue, because so many child molesters

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Speaker 1: and predators of sexual assaults against women and girls especially,

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Speaker 1: but sexual assault in general, have gone unpunished. So it

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Speaker 1: was this sort of cathartic collective moment for when our

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Speaker 1: culture is saying, you know what, we're actually listening to

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Speaker 1: women victims now, so let's come down on this guy

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Speaker 1: as a symbol of the hashtag met moment that we

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Speaker 1: find ourselves in. But honestly, the whole concept of victim

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Speaker 1: impact statements has never been used this way before, and

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Speaker 1: for anybody who cares about equal justice under the law,

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Speaker 1: this raises some concerning questions. One thing that's really important

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Speaker 1: to keep in mind is that victims role in sentencing

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Speaker 1: has long been a debate in the legal community. These

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Speaker 1: cases are typically the state versus or the people versus

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Speaker 1: some predator in this regard, and so our country has

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Speaker 1: been wrestling with the role that victims should play in

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Speaker 1: seeking justice without necessarily creating an environment that seems prejudicial

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Speaker 1: against more and higher and more severe sentencing. So back

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Speaker 1: in the Supreme Court weighed in on how victim should

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Speaker 1: be involved in the sentencing part of the due process

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Speaker 1: that our our justice system carries out. So in this

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Speaker 1: case Booth versus Maryland, the victims were saying, we're left

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Speaker 1: out of the process altogether. We want to be able

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Speaker 1: to make victim impact statements at sentencing. And the case

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Speaker 1: was specifically focused on sentencing that included the death penalty.

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Speaker 1: And I want to throw it to The New York

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Speaker 1: Times excellent podcast called The Daily from January twenty five

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Speaker 1: that features a really interesting interview with Emily Baslon, who

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Speaker 1: covers legal issues for the New York Times magazine. Versus

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court said, no, when a judge is deciding whether

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Speaker 1: to sentence someone to death, they are not allowed to

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Speaker 1: hear about the effect the murder has had on family members.

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Speaker 1: It was overturned at some point, right, that's right. We

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Speaker 1: hold that the Eighth Amendment erects no automatic bar prohibiting

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Speaker 1: a capital sentencing jury from considering victim impact evidence relating

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Speaker 1: to the victims person characteristics, And in this later decision,

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Speaker 1: what the court says is the hearing from victims helps

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Speaker 1: educate the judge who's meeting out the sentence about what

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Speaker 1: the harm of the crime has been. The point that

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Speaker 1: they're making is that they should not be able to

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Speaker 1: hear from folks who were not there for the crime,

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Speaker 1: that that has no relevance on guilt or innocent in

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Speaker 1: the court of law. And also they're unpacking our historical

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Speaker 1: discomfort with the injection of raw emotion and impact directly

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Speaker 1: from victims and survivors themselves. Yeah, and that's the thing. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: emotion is part of this. I mean, I almost don't

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Speaker 1: even know where how I feel about this feelings, but

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Speaker 1: you know, obviously this is an emotional crime, and I

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Speaker 1: don't think we can pretend that emotions have no place

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Speaker 1: in the courtroom. Well, it does depend on your philosophy

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Speaker 1: around sentencing. Think about mandatory minimum sentences. That takes all

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Speaker 1: the power out of the judge to be considered of

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Speaker 1: unique levels of impact that someone's crime has had on them.

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Speaker 1: And the question is where what is the role of

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Speaker 1: the judge in sentencing. Should it be oh, you're guilty

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Speaker 1: of fifty six crimes you're gonna get X numbers of

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Speaker 1: years because of that. Is it a simple equation or

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Speaker 1: is it? Let's listen to the robust emotional impact that

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Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty women plus come forward to discuss

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Speaker 1: and share with the cord to then give the judge

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Speaker 1: more of a sort of understanding of how much damage

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Speaker 1: this person has done. See in this case, I actually

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Speaker 1: think that's exactly what was happening. I think that the

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Speaker 1: unprecedented amount of victims impact statements that we heard in

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Speaker 1: the courtroom in this case was to demonstrate just how

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Speaker 1: many victims there were, and just how long this abuse

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Speaker 1: went on for, and the magnitude and sheer scope of

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Speaker 1: Nassar's crimes. I think that was meant to paint that

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Speaker 1: portrait so that anyone watching would have no misunderstanding about

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Speaker 1: how serious what he did was and how long it's

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Speaker 1: banned for and how many victims he created. And I

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Speaker 1: get that. I get it too. But where's the tension then?

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Speaker 1: Because we could think of a million other examples in

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Speaker 1: which trial by public opinion would influence a judge, perhaps

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Speaker 1: not rightfully so right if I if you know, if

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Speaker 1: every sentencing was publicized live for all of the world

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Speaker 1: to see. It would be a matter of who has

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Speaker 1: the most compelling victim impact statements to bring someone down,

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Speaker 1: you know, like this can also be abused. And I

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Speaker 1: hate saying that. And I don't want to be the

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Speaker 1: due process person here because I think this guy should

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Speaker 1: burn in hell, quite frankly, and I think the victims

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Speaker 1: who came forward did so bravely and courageously and powerfully. Um,

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Speaker 1: but it was weird. It was weird to see a

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Speaker 1: judge at sentence saying saying things like I wouldn't send

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Speaker 1: my dogs to you to Dr Nasser. You know, It's

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Speaker 1: just it's uncomfortable. Don't know why. I don't know. I

429
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 1: wonder if I'm gonna get. I know I'm gonna get

430
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 1: so much for saying this, But where is the line

431
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 1: with due process in this case? Yeah, Emily, I'm so

432
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 1: conflicted about this, and I totally totally hear you. One

433
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: of my biggest pet peeves as someone who cares a

434
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: lot about the criminal justice system and how that works,

435
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,640
Speaker 1: is that when she was in courtroom, she said, our

436
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 1: constitution does not allow for cruel unusual punishment. If it did,

437
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 1: I have to say I might allow what he did

438
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 1: to all those beautiful souls, these young women in their childhood.

439
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 1: I would allow someone or many people to do what

440
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 1: he did to others, and that's really not okay with me, right.

441
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 1: Sexual solving prison is not a joke. It is not something.

442
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: I mean, we it is a joke because you know,

443
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 1: we watch TV and movies and don't drop the soap

444
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 1: is you know, supposed to be a ha ha line.

445
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 1: But our criminal justice system and our prison industry is

446
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 1: really really messed up. I don't think it's funny. And honestly, Bridget,

447
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 1: we're not alone in this. Diana Moskovitz at Deadspin wrote,

448
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 1: even Larry Nasser does not deserve to be raped in prison,

449
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 1: and it's sort of underscores the conflicted feelings that a

450
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 1: lot of us have watching this, thinking, yeah, he should

451
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: definitely go to prison forever um, But she would be

452
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: should we be relishing in the live sentencing process that's

453
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: turning into a courtroom performance? Yeah? I know the judge

454
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 1: took a lot of flak for her, you know, style

455
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 1: Claire in that courtroom, but I actually did love that.

456
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: To her critics, she basically was like, oh, you guys

457
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 1: should watch me in court every day. I'm like this,

458
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 1: every day cameras are no cameras. This is who I am.

459
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 1: So part of me was like, hey girl, at least

460
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 1: she's being consistent. But it does. It does raise questions

461
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 1: about due process, and you know, what are the ramifications

462
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: of having a courtroom conversation like that, or having our

463
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 1: criminal justice system pushed to the him in this way,

464
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 1: like we might see a backlash on victim impact statements

465
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 1: or some other dramatic things might happen right before you

466
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 1: record a podcast about this particular subject, which we'll talk

467
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 1: about when we come back from this quick break. And

468
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 1: we are back and we're talking through the very dramatic

469
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 1: sentencing and case regarding Larry Nastter and his disgusting long

470
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 1: term abuse of women and girls in gymnastics. And right

471
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: before we started recording today's episode, we got some more news.

472
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: We noticed that he was trending on Twitter again. So

473
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 1: what happened? So basically, right as we sat down to

474
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: record today's episode, we noticed he was trending. And the

475
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: reason why he's trending is because he's back in court

476
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 1: today and the father of three of his victims basically

477
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 1: physically tried to attack him in the courtroom, he lung

478
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 1: to him, he had to be held down. He asked

479
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: the judge as part of sentencing, if he could be

480
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 1: granted a few minutes alone with Nasser in a locked room,

481
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 1: and the judge was like, no, that's not how this works.

482
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 1: But clearly this is an emotional situation. And you know

483
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 1: the fact that a father had to be restrained in

484
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: a courtroom from physically attacking this monster. I mean, really,

485
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 1: it's it's really something. Well, I understand it, right. I

486
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 1: feel like every parent out there is like, yeah, you

487
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: know who else understands it? That judge, because when asked

488
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 1: if she was going to be holding this father in

489
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 1: contempt of court, she said absolutely not. Get I understand it.

490
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 1: It's interesting and yet at the same time, this is

491
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: exactly the kind of victim impact statement that the Supreme

492
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: Court previously back in seven said was not allowed because

493
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: the risk we run from having people give impact statements

494
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: who weren't even directly impacted, who weren't even there, like

495
00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: family members, might create some kind of prejud additional situation

496
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 1: that could increase the severity of sentencing. And when that

497
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: is the norm, could that be a problem. I hate

498
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: this because this is one of those times where my

499
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 1: lefty pie in the sky ideals are really challenged, because

500
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: you know, I found myself watching this stuff. When I

501
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 1: saw the video of this dad attacking Larry, how was

502
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 1: it good for him? Right when I saw the video

503
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: of the judge bringing the SmackDown on him, I thought,

504
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 1: good for her? You tell him, sis, go get him.

505
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,239
Speaker 1: I'm not someone who is a huge champion of our

506
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: criminal justice system, and it just makes me think, where

507
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 1: does this feeling inside come from? Where I'm gleefully rooting

508
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: for all of these machinations of our justice system to

509
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: operate in a way that in other circumstances I might

510
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: not be so gleeful. Well, that's the thing. I understand

511
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 1: where our glee comes from in this very specific case

512
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 1: and in a lot out of cases where justice is

513
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: long over too. The concern is legal precedent. I hate

514
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: to be the spoiler of all things feminists. I really

515
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 1: am not trying to make that my niche of this podcast.

516
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 1: Are you know I'm kidding? I swear? I mean, is

517
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: this something that could be problematic for future cases that

518
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: aren't this cut and dry, that don't have someone pleading

519
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: guilty on all of these crimes and who's long overdue

520
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 1: for a severe punishment. I mean, I don't know. Yeah,

521
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: I think I just have to accept that. I'm someone

522
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 1: who advocates for due process and really really wants our

523
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 1: criminal justice system to be fair and unbiased. I just

524
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: like it when sexual abusers get what's get what's coming.

525
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 1: I think I think it's like I have to just

526
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: accept that my primate brain or whatever, like it's just

527
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: something that feels right, it's a disceral and have to

528
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 1: accept that it's attention and that I can't escape it.

529
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 1: And I just I think, like a lot of people watching,

530
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: we're in this moment of me to this reckoning where

531
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 1: it feels like for so long we've been saying things.

532
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: I mean, these women and girls have been speaking up

533
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: for literal decades since nine and nothing was done, and

534
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: I just feel like I can't pretend like the weight

535
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: of that. But it doesn't feel good. We have some

536
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: cathartic moment of finally he's getting his and I have

537
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 1: to just accept that. Yeah, I have to accept it. Well,

538
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: you're relishing in that pent uprage, which is totally the

539
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 1: moment we have right now, and I get it. I

540
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: validate that. I recognize and respect that, and I also

541
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: want to validate and recognize and respect for those who

542
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 1: are looking at this saying I too feel a little

543
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 1: conflicted over it. It's okay to care about the process

544
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 1: and want to see this guy go down and get

545
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 1: his you know, get what's coming. Um, I think you

546
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: hit the nail on the head. You can hold separate

547
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,959
Speaker 1: opinions at once. You can say he was a monster

548
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: and deserves to die in prison. It's not okay for

549
00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: a judge to make jokes about him being raped in prison.

550
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: Perhaps this unprecedented use of victims impact statements. While powerful

551
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 1: and I applaud them, you know, wholeheartedly, perhaps it's fair

552
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: to ask questions about what that means for the criminal

553
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: justice system. I think all of those things can exist

554
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 1: at once, and they have to, and I think it's

555
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 1: an important discussion for us to be okay having I

556
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 1: do not want to be in a silo of feminist

557
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: purity tests where the only right answer is blindly falling

558
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 1: in line with supporting women without having the ability to

559
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 1: question what kind of precedent this sets up. And it's

560
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: not an easy position to take, but I want to

561
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 1: validate that position for a lot of us who are

562
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 1: feeling a little conflicted over what's happening right now, because

563
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 1: you can believe in due process and believe that women

564
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 1: have been long overdue and getting real justice. So, honestly,

565
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: I want to throw it to the listeners. I want

566
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 1: to know what you think. I'm sure y'all will tell

567
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 1: us all about it on Twitter. And I'm actually very

568
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 1: curious because I don't think it's a black and white conversation.

569
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 1: I do think there's room for tension and room for questions,

570
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 1: and I just want to hear what folks thought. Yeah,

571
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,280
Speaker 1: so please get in touch with us at mom Stuff

572
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 1: Podcast on Twitter, stuff Mom Never Told You on Instagram,

573
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 1: and our inbox is always open at mom Stuff at

574
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com