Speaker 1: I loved Miss Mitchell, my sixth grade teacher, for many reasons,
Speaker 1: but one thing she used to always do for us
Speaker 1: made me feel so much more confident on my projects.
Speaker 1: About a half hour before the bell would ring and
Speaker 1: our projects were due, she would say, now, y'all, get
Speaker 1: you a buddy and let that buddy review your work
Speaker 1: and they can make two free changes or corrections. So
Speaker 1: if you mispelled a word, or didn't have a common
Speaker 1: in the right place, or you needed to fix that
Speaker 1: dangling modifier, now is your time. And then she would
Speaker 1: give you the opportunity to do that with a friend.
Speaker 1: And I can hear her right now, she would say, class,
Speaker 1: it's time to find the buddy and get a new
Speaker 1: viewpoint on your project. A different outlook's important. Let your
Speaker 1: friends help you. They have good judgment. This is how
Speaker 1: I feel about tonight's panel. They have great viewpoints, They
Speaker 1: are solid in their understanding of how these cases work,
Speaker 1: how to interpret what's happening, and they have outstanding judgment.
Speaker 1: I have asked them to help me with this project
Speaker 1: to understand what is going on with the Long Island
Speaker 1: serial killer. Now, just to give you all a quick overview,
Speaker 1: the first victim Gilbert, twenty four, was last seen May one,
Speaker 1: twenty ten. She wanted to be an actress. At the
Speaker 1: time of her disappearance, she was working as a sex worker.
Speaker 1: Police started to search for her along Ocean Parkway. Shockingly,
Speaker 1: four more bodies were discovered over a three day period
Speaker 1: of time. All of the remains were in about a
Speaker 1: half a mile roughly five hundred feet apart. Now experts
Speaker 1: recognize this as possibly a dumping ground for a serial killer.
Speaker 1: There was virtually no doubt in my mind that's what
Speaker 1: it was. Police began to link some of the other
Speaker 1: victims their profession, the area they were taken from, in
Speaker 1: the area they were disposed in. Another victim, Waterman, twenty
Speaker 1: two years old, was from Maine, but she had been
Speaker 1: working as an escort off Craigslist. Three other victims Barns,
Speaker 1: twenty five year old from Norwich, Connecticut, another victim twenty
Speaker 1: four from the Bronx, another victim twenty seven from Long Island.
Speaker 1: They were all working as sex workers. April fourth, twenty eleven.
Speaker 1: By now, law enforcement has recovered eight women and one
Speaker 1: man who was wearing women's clothing. December thirteenth, law enforcement
Speaker 1: announced Gilbert's remains have been identified. January sixteenth, twenty twenty,
Speaker 1: police released the first major clue to the public. Now
Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you all right now, I thought this
Speaker 1: piece of evidence was going to break this thing wide open.
Speaker 1: It was a leather belt, but it almost looked like
Speaker 1: an old piece of clothing, something that a grandfather would
Speaker 1: have had, and it had letters on it, and nobody
Speaker 1: knew whether the letters were WH or HM. But I thought,
Speaker 1: there's got to be DNA on it. There might be
Speaker 1: some blood on it, but surely somebody's gonna recognize that
Speaker 1: in a family, it looked like an heirloom. July thirteenth,
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, unarrest was finally made, and tonight we
Speaker 1: have one of the best panels to come together and
Speaker 1: look at this thing from a three sixty one vortex.
Speaker 1: Like I've talked about in the past, every different possible
Speaker 1: avenue that I can think of right now is coming
Speaker 1: to the table. I'm lucky enough to not just admire
Speaker 1: these folks and get to work with these folks, but
Speaker 1: they are genuinely my friends and solidly in my Zone seven.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna start with retired NYPD Sergeant Joseph Jackloone. He
Speaker 1: was in the Bronx as the head of their cold
Speaker 1: case squad. He was part of the cold case task
Speaker 1: Force in the homicide Unit. He taught at the Homicide
Speaker 1: School for NYPD. He is, without a doubt, somebody that
Speaker 1: can take a ton of information and funnel it down
Speaker 1: in the simplest form. He is a professor at the
Speaker 1: John Jay College of Criminal Justice, and he has a
Speaker 1: teacher's heart. You can hear it when he talks and
Speaker 1: explains these cases. Has just kind of, I think, blown
Speaker 1: my mind on a couple of levels. But you and
Speaker 1: I know, and we've talked before, that at a rest
Speaker 1: doesn't mean the investigation is over. So can you talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about what law enforcement is doing after
Speaker 1: they have this person in custody.
Speaker 2: So when you're building a case, whether it's an ordinary
Speaker 2: case or a cold case like this with lots of
Speaker 2: moving parts and victims, you always have to present the
Speaker 2: case as if this is going to trial, because in
Speaker 2: this situation, it will. Even when you have a case
Speaker 2: that is ten years old and you don't think you're
Speaker 2: ever going to solve it, you're always preparing for that
Speaker 2: day and you got your eyes and cross your t's
Speaker 2: and you have to make sure you have all your
Speaker 2: inculpatory evidence and your exculpatory right things that include and
Speaker 2: exclude suspects, because the defense attorney is going to be
Speaker 2: going after certain things and saying it's not my guy,
Speaker 2: which is the defense attorney is already doing right. They
Speaker 2: got the wrong guy at somebody else. So that's why
Speaker 2: it's very important to make sure you the case buttoned up.
Speaker 1: Now we see law enforcement again. They're going to storage rooms,
Speaker 1: they're looking at his vehicles, they're digging in the backyard.
Speaker 1: They've already identified these burner phones and computer searches and
Speaker 1: the guns. As you're kind of wading through some of this,
Speaker 1: what do you think right now is the most intriguing
Speaker 1: piece of evidence to you?
Speaker 2: Well, right now, I want to know what they found
Speaker 2: in the storage facility. Right, So they went to the
Speaker 2: storage facility and then a few hours later the a
Speaker 2: medical examiner showed up. So to me, that was a
Speaker 2: definitely red flag. I mean, you don't call the medical
Speaker 2: examiner unless you find something that needs to be examined
Speaker 2: by them. So it was a very interesting aspect of things.
Speaker 2: And if the anthropologist would have showed up, I probably
Speaker 2: would have fallen off my chair. So yeah, the issue
Speaker 2: that comes down to is, like I've done a number
Speaker 2: of cold case digs. When I was working doing this stuff.
Speaker 2: We always had the medical examiner or a medical legal
Speaker 2: investigator which people refer to as an MLI at the
Speaker 2: scene while we start. But you know, in New York
Speaker 2: City there's a lot of different mlis that you can
Speaker 2: do it. In Suffer County, it's a much smaller place
Speaker 2: and they might not have one available, so that could
Speaker 2: have been a reason why they called them after the fact.
Speaker 2: But still it is a very intriguing We know from
Speaker 2: past cases serial killers could hold trophies back. That kind
Speaker 2: of material would be extremely important to this case specifically.
Speaker 2: There are a number of other victims that haven't been
Speaker 2: attributed to him. That doesn't mean that they will be,
Speaker 2: but you know as well as I do, that they
Speaker 2: need to make sure that they have the right guy
Speaker 2: for a lot of different reasons.
Speaker 1: You and I were texting each other in the instant
Speaker 1: message system. I don't even know what it's called, but
Speaker 1: we were in live time talking to each other when
Speaker 1: the medical examiner showed up, and I'm going to tell
Speaker 1: you I about did fall out of my chair because
Speaker 1: to your point, he ain't called but for one thing,
Speaker 1: and that's for some type of body.
Speaker 2: Part, exactly right. So that was a really foretelling kind
Speaker 2: of issue for me anyway, And I think, you know,
Speaker 2: a couple people picked up on it, But as soon
Speaker 2: as I saw that on the TV, I tweeted it
Speaker 2: out and the thing went crazy on it because everyone
Speaker 2: knows pretty much what that means. We have a lot
Speaker 2: of we have a lot of faith right now going
Speaker 2: on in this investigation, just from the base of the
Speaker 2: quality of the investigation on the digital forensics and the
Speaker 2: DNA and everything else. So this was an especially unique
Speaker 2: opportunity to see exactly what's transpiring.
Speaker 1: Doctor Jonie Johnson, the forensic psychologist, PI author, crime writer.
Speaker 1: She's gonna help us maintain this balance that all of
Speaker 1: these cases have at least two sides. All right, doctor Joni,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna come to you pretty quick out of the gate,
Speaker 1: because you got to tell us about this guy. How
Speaker 1: do you function as a professional, raise children, maintain a marriage,
Speaker 1: and at the same time be this predatory killer.
Speaker 3: It is pretty astonishing how much some people can compartmentalize
Speaker 3: different parts of their lives. And this is clearly if
Speaker 3: this person is the perpetrator, and there seems to be
Speaker 3: a tremendous amount of evidence suggesting that's true. He truly
Speaker 3: was a master at it. I mean, this is somebody,
Speaker 3: like you said, he's married, he's got children, he has
Speaker 3: a successful business, and yet there seems to be this
Speaker 3: secret life that is completely separate from his day to
Speaker 3: day operation. You know, I've had several police officers, I'm
Speaker 3: sure you can relate to this, probably Cheryl, who will
Speaker 3: talk about being at a homicide scene and then going
Speaker 3: home and hugging their you know, small children and just
Speaker 3: having to take off mentally one hat and put another
Speaker 3: one on and just slip into a different role. This
Speaker 3: is obviously an extreme version of that.
Speaker 1: That's a good point. Do you think we're going to
Speaker 1: see the serial killer hat trick? You know, when they
Speaker 1: want to control and they want to dominate, and they
Speaker 1: want to, you know, just have this whole function where
Speaker 1: they're manipulating people and dominating their victims and controlling the situation.
Speaker 1: Do you think we're going to see aspects of that
Speaker 1: as they go through some of the things that he
Speaker 1: has been accused of doing already, and some of the
Speaker 1: people that are coming forward telling stories about how he
Speaker 1: approached them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's interesting that so many people are
Speaker 3: coming forward. We have to take that just a little
Speaker 3: bit with the grain of salt, because we know that
Speaker 3: when we know the kind of outcome of what's happened recently,
Speaker 3: it's easy for people to kind of go back and
Speaker 3: remember things. But the thing that stands out the most
Speaker 3: for me in terms of the evidence so far is
Speaker 3: just the amount of sadism and cruelty that seem to
Speaker 3: be in this perpetrator, all the way from the pornography
Speaker 3: and some of the searches that he was making to
Speaker 3: just taunting the family of his victims. I mean, that
Speaker 3: is so scary because that suggests that this really is
Speaker 3: every person's worst nightmare.
Speaker 1: One thing that stuck out to me is when they're
Speaker 1: taking items out of the home. There was one Playboy
Speaker 1: magazine and it looks like it's the issue that had
Speaker 1: the last pictures of Marilyn Monroe, the nude pictures. If
Speaker 1: that's the case, that magazine is from the eighties, and
Speaker 1: that's where he would have been a much younger man.
Speaker 1: And again there's some people that think she was murdered,
Speaker 1: you know, perhaps tortured. So if that's something he's reading
Speaker 1: as a young person, and it's something he has kept
Speaker 1: in Christine condition, again, this is something that he does
Speaker 1: full time.
Speaker 3: Well, I would be very surprised to learn that he
Speaker 3: started killing in his forties. I mean, we all know
Speaker 3: that murder seems to be a young person's gang for
Speaker 3: the most part, and most serial killers start in their twenties,
Speaker 3: you know, early to mid twenties, sometimes even their late teens.
Speaker 3: So I am hoping that I'm wrong and the evidence
Speaker 3: will not such port that, but I would certainly put
Speaker 3: a dollar on it that this was not his first
Speaker 3: radio in terms of two thousand and seven.
Speaker 1: Y'all know Lisa Rabbikoff, she's been here before, polygrapher, polygraph examiner,
Speaker 1: polygraph expert. She's going to figure out whether or not
Speaker 1: you're line to the best of her ability, Lisa rabbit Cough,
Speaker 1: if he was willing to talk, what questions would you
Speaker 1: have for him and in what order?
Speaker 4: The first question I'm not going to ask him is why,
Speaker 4: because that's not the answer that he's going to be
Speaker 4: forthcoming with right off the bat. It's definitely going to
Speaker 4: take a seasoned investigator with an extensive training in interviewing
Speaker 4: as well as interrogation to go ahead and reach the
Speaker 4: rapport with him to acquire that information. I think that
Speaker 4: if more and more evidence ties him to additional victims,
Speaker 4: that eventually he is going to start singing and he's
Speaker 4: going to start give over some details. But right now,
Speaker 4: just taking a look at his booking photo, we know
Speaker 4: working in the industry that usually the eyes tell a
Speaker 4: story behind a lot of different things. His booking photo,
Speaker 4: if you take a look at his mouth, he kind
Speaker 4: of has some sort of a smart and a smile
Speaker 4: to it, which definitely is very unsettling given the fact
Speaker 4: that his first comment in court when his counsel was
Speaker 4: assigned to him by the Suffolk County eighteen a felony
Speaker 4: panel was is this on the news? So he's more
Speaker 4: so looking as I believe in the limelight of what
Speaker 4: is my reputation? What do people think about me? And
Speaker 4: he's going to care more about the public perception of
Speaker 4: him as an individual. The questions that I would focus on,
Speaker 4: I would probably start discussing his family. I would start
Speaker 4: talking about the relationship with his children. The media has
Speaker 4: outlined that he does have his daughter, Victoria, who was
Speaker 4: an employee at his firm in the working in Midtown
Speaker 4: as graduate from NYIT. She does have a background in
Speaker 4: online and technical I guess photoshop illustrator kind of doing
Speaker 4: visual effects, which could play into her role at the firm.
Speaker 4: But he does have his son, as per the media reports,
Speaker 4: with special needs, and there isn't much information that's coming
Speaker 4: out regarding him, so I would definitely want to discuss
Speaker 4: and play into his fatherly role and get him comfortable
Speaker 4: talking about the dynamics. I would also not start discussing
Speaker 4: with him his first marriage, because obviously there is a divorce.
Speaker 4: I don't want to go ahead and possibly draw bad
Speaker 4: blood and get him to shut down and start being
Speaker 4: accusatory as to maybe infidelity or reasons that he could
Speaker 4: have been at fault for that termination of marriage. But
Speaker 4: I would definitely go about discussing his family, his history upbringing,
Speaker 4: but also not going into questioning whether or not he
Speaker 4: was ever a victim of any sexual or physical abuse
Speaker 4: from family members or anyone in his life, because again,
Speaker 4: rapport is the biggest thing. When we need to go
Speaker 4: ahead and have a suspect discuss anything with us.
Speaker 1: That's an excellent point, and I think, look at his
Speaker 1: double life starting with the light that he would not
Speaker 1: be in any way hesitant to talk about is brilliant.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think from my perspective, Look, so I was
Speaker 2: part of a detective squad, and of course the cool
Speaker 2: cause squad, I might have taken an approach where having
Speaker 2: a female detective do my interview for me and see
Speaker 2: how that would go in regards to if he wants
Speaker 2: to try to manipulate her or dominate her and that
Speaker 2: kind of thing, or really kind of get under his
Speaker 2: skin that way too. So I think that might be
Speaker 2: a tactic that I would have used, and we don't
Speaker 2: know if if they use that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that all day. We have a special, special,
Speaker 1: special guest. We met, we became buddies. She's somebody that
Speaker 1: I rely on to kind of keep me balanced in
Speaker 1: what I say, because again, sometimes in my world, I
Speaker 1: can just see a perpetrator and that's sometimes how I
Speaker 1: talk about them, that they're guilty before the trial starts.
Speaker 1: But Carrie Rawson is the daughter of the BTK killer.
Speaker 1: I think she's one of the bravest people that I know,
Speaker 1: because again I'm somewhat guarded when it comes to private information.
Speaker 1: I'm not one of those people that shares intimate details
Speaker 1: of things. And it always amazes me when somebody so
Speaker 1: willingly will just come out and say, this was the
Speaker 1: darkest moment of my life and I'm going to tell
Speaker 1: you all about it, and she opens herself up I
Speaker 1: think in just a tremendous caring way, because she's actually
Speaker 1: given us information. I think it's a tremendous help.
Speaker 5: I also would interject to use the tactic not only
Speaker 5: of a female, but like you've got to come in
Speaker 5: from a level of respect, like like you all know
Speaker 5: what I mean, Like you have to wall off that
Speaker 5: horror that's going on in your insides. Why you're like
Speaker 5: you have to respect them and meet them face to face,
Speaker 5: and you almost have to seem almost well by like
Speaker 5: what they've done and like you're like, wow, can you
Speaker 5: tell me more about that? Like why are they wrapped
Speaker 5: in burlap? And you know how you know you don't
Speaker 5: make me go to count right away, but like you
Speaker 5: show like genuine interests and you can't fake it. But
Speaker 5: these guys can see like right through to your souls,
Speaker 5: So you have to be like walled off, prepared, and you.
Speaker 6: If you don't know your stuff, they're.
Speaker 5: Gonna just call you out and they're gonna be like, Nope,
Speaker 5: I'm talking to somebody else.
Speaker 6: I'm not talking to you.
Speaker 1: And Carrie, that's a great point we also have with us.
Speaker 1: Mike Morford, we call him more. He's a podcast extraordinary,
Speaker 1: that podcast Criminology. Check it out. It's unbelievable. And tonight
Speaker 1: he's bringing all of his brilliance right here for us.
Speaker 1: I want to talk a little bit about how important
Speaker 1: podcasters have been on this case, the media in general,
Speaker 1: but podcasters specifically.
Speaker 7: Well, I think it's important when you want to get
Speaker 7: the word out about, you know, a case, if you're
Speaker 7: an investigator that's wanting to get this out to more people,
Speaker 7: so more people talk about it, shared on social media,
Speaker 7: provide clues, come forward with tips. You know, a podcast
Speaker 7: is you know, a tremendous way to do that. You know,
Speaker 7: you can advertise on TV, you can put it on
Speaker 7: all the news shows you want. But you know, if
Speaker 7: you're not tapping into something like podcast that millions of
Speaker 7: people listen to, you're missing out on a good option
Speaker 7: for getting more attention for those cases.
Speaker 1: And I tell people all the time. Everybody has a gift.
Speaker 1: Somebody's vocation or advocation could assist in some way that
Speaker 1: you don't even know as possible. And some of the
Speaker 1: graphics that I've seen, some of the maps, have blown
Speaker 1: my mind that Seville, for lack of a better term,
Speaker 1: have put together on this case.
Speaker 7: Yeah, there's no doubt that when you get a collective
Speaker 7: of people with different skills, different backgrounds that are able
Speaker 7: to help move case forward, it's a good thing and
Speaker 7: it lends itself to possibly being solved easier because you're
Speaker 7: getting that much more attention for it.
Speaker 1: Now, Carrie, I want to go back to you for
Speaker 1: a second, and I know this is not easy. I
Speaker 1: know that you don't take any joy from this. This
Speaker 1: is not something you look forward to doing, so right
Speaker 1: off the bat, I want to tell you I appreciate
Speaker 1: you being here, and I do think you're one of
Speaker 1: the bravest people that I know, because you are so
Speaker 1: willing to share a part of your life that was
Speaker 1: just horrific, but for the purposes of what we have
Speaker 1: understood happened on Long Island. Talk to us about that
Speaker 1: knock at the door.
Speaker 5: So it's my hope for a Rexist family that. You know,
Speaker 5: we were told he was arrested Thursday night. So it
Speaker 5: is my hope that they went and quietly notified the
Speaker 5: family and gave them Thursday night and then had them
Speaker 5: hunkered down away from media by Friday morning. You know,
Speaker 5: I'm hearing that maybe they weren't quite ready for media
Speaker 5: to break as early as as it did, so there
Speaker 5: was a bit of a management scramble, I think on
Speaker 5: Friday for Long Island. For in my case, they had
Speaker 5: been looking for my dad for thirty one years for
Speaker 5: murders from seventy four to ninety one. Then he was
Speaker 5: playing games for about a year when he came back
Speaker 5: so FBI KBI, which everybody was looking for him, and had
Speaker 5: like this massive DNA swabamon and a bunch of insanity.
Speaker 5: So they narrowed it down to my dad about a
Speaker 5: week before they arrested him due to a floppy disk.
Speaker 5: Then they got my DNA and so that came back
Speaker 5: that Thursday night that it was match to my dad,
Speaker 5: and so the next morning then they had concocted a
Speaker 5: plan and they arrested him on his way home for
Speaker 5: lunch and then around the block. Then they went and
Speaker 5: knocked on my mom's door at the very same time.
Speaker 6: Then an FBI agent notified.
Speaker 5: Me in Michigan and went to went to Connecticut to
Speaker 5: notify my brother at the Navy. So they they planned
Speaker 5: it with the FBI so that nobody could talk to
Speaker 5: each other. And so when I was I didn't even
Speaker 5: want to let the FBI agent into my house and
Speaker 5: then he literally just dropped the bomb on me that
Speaker 5: Dad was BTK and they didn't let us talk to
Speaker 5: each other. I didn't even get ahold of family till
Speaker 5: like later that evening.
Speaker 6: They didn't. They they needed to.
Speaker 5: Clear us before we could start talking to each other.
Speaker 5: So they like they were real careful about that. But
Speaker 5: like when you're talking about potentially what long Island's family
Speaker 5: is going through, I mean you're just talking about utter
Speaker 5: freaking hell and shock, like it just lands on you
Speaker 5: like a bomb. And call it the before and the after, right,
Speaker 5: And so we have before Dad was arrested and after,
Speaker 5: and I still do that. I just have to say
Speaker 5: before or after, and everybody knows what I mean.
Speaker 1: Sergeant, I want to go back to you for a second,
Speaker 1: and I want to ask you, when you're working a
Speaker 1: task force like this, how difficult, is it to get
Speaker 1: everybody to stay on the same page and move as
Speaker 1: one systematic unit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the million dollar question, right, And this is
Speaker 2: just not you know, one department, right. So you had
Speaker 2: the state Police, you had the FBI, you have Suffolk County,
Speaker 2: you have Nassau County. You have probably the Park's rangers
Speaker 2: on this too, because that's I believe that's where the
Speaker 2: who's really in control of that landown there. So you
Speaker 2: have so many different agencies, so many different egos, so
Speaker 2: many different things going on. I think it's just a
Speaker 2: testament to the Police Commission in Suffer County, Rodney Harrison,
Speaker 2: for putting this team together, inviting the right people, and
Speaker 2: being able to control all of that fo of information
Speaker 2: and making sure that nothing slipped through the cracks. As
Speaker 2: weeks and months and years go by, We're going to
Speaker 2: hear a lot more as this case goes closer to trial,
Speaker 2: and we will hear about all those investigative steps and
Speaker 2: different things, because remember, there are so many missteps that
Speaker 2: happened prior to this, over the ten or eleven year
Speaker 2: period before it. It's really I hate to use the
Speaker 2: word biracle, but it's like pulling the rabbit out of
Speaker 2: a hat when you know, if you know the case
Speaker 2: very well, this is like, it's really an amazement that
Speaker 2: they pulled this off.
Speaker 1: I agree. And how Davin wide and twisted? Do you
Speaker 1: think this thing's fixing again?
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's going to get more interesting. Right,
Speaker 2: So we have the victor Maureen Brainerd Barnes, who was
Speaker 2: the last part of the GILG four. I believe they
Speaker 2: were what they said in the press conference, they we're
Speaker 2: waiting for forensic tests to come back on that because
Speaker 2: the DNA was kind of messed up from being out
Speaker 2: in the elements in that area. So I think they're
Speaker 2: waiting on some of the new technolo Jesus se if
Speaker 2: they can put her with him too. I mean, and listen,
Speaker 2: I've said this long ago. You can look back in
Speaker 2: the annals of my interviews and I said it was
Speaker 2: me doing this. I would I would have focused in
Speaker 2: on the GILG four because we can all agree that
Speaker 2: they were all killed by the same person. The other
Speaker 2: the other seven you know, maybe right, but there's going
Speaker 2: to be cases dating back as far as nineteen ninety six.
Speaker 2: So you know, as well as I do, a lot
Speaker 2: of the forensics wasn't even you know, cops weren't even
Speaker 2: aware of it back then, So they're going to have
Speaker 2: some difficulty putting those cases together, unless, of course, he confesses.
Speaker 2: But New York State doesn't. You know, they have the
Speaker 2: death penalty, but they'll never use it and they'll never
Speaker 2: hold that against them. But I think they either would
Speaker 2: be able to hold that against them to see if
Speaker 2: you can come forward or maybe go go federal with this.
Speaker 2: I mean, they could still end up going federal on it,
Speaker 2: So it's going to be interesting to see what happens
Speaker 2: with that.
Speaker 1: Doctor Jony. Sometimes I will have a parallel investigation almost
Speaker 1: things like your job kind of does the same thing.
Speaker 1: So on the one hand, you're trying to profile this guy,
Speaker 1: but on the other hand, you may be putting together
Speaker 1: a care plan for the perpetrator's family, so it's not
Speaker 1: just the victim's side of this case, but the other
Speaker 1: family as well.
Speaker 3: That's such a good point, And I know Carrie can
Speaker 3: speak to this a lot more eloquently and personally than
Speaker 3: I can, but I definitely that it's just so, so truly,
Speaker 3: and I'm glad that you brought that up, because you know,
Speaker 3: these are victims, and I'm not necessarily saying there are
Speaker 3: the same victims as the victims' families, but they will
Speaker 3: also be grieving the loss of who they thought this
Speaker 3: person was if't is in fact the perpetrator, And so
Speaker 3: I think it is important. I've seen really horrendous things posted,
Speaker 3: not on this case per se, but on other you know,
Speaker 3: on websites and social media about family members. There's always
Speaker 3: this I think, belief or this assumption that they somehow
Speaker 3: knew and they're protecting this person, or they should have
Speaker 3: known or whatever. This need to assign blame, I think
Speaker 3: to the whole family, this kind of spillover effect. And
Speaker 3: you know, obviously there have been cases where there have
Speaker 3: been families who participated, but I think that's definitely the
Speaker 3: exception rather than the rule. And often the families are
Speaker 3: just blindsided by this and they're just scrambling around trying
Speaker 3: to figure out what's going on. At the same time,
Speaker 3: the media is descending on them, and you know, people
Speaker 3: are sending them hate mail or whatever. So I think
Speaker 3: it is important to realize that this family, as Scary
Speaker 3: said earlier, does need some protection and some empathy.
Speaker 1: Lisa, you're their own long out what is the pulse
Speaker 1: like of that community.
Speaker 4: I actually live door to door without traffic, twenty three
Speaker 4: minutes from the crime scene. And this case has not
Speaker 4: only kept our community and my community, I mean both
Speaker 4: NASA and counties which make up half of Long Island
Speaker 4: on edge constantly and always. But now that we know
Speaker 4: where this individual has been residing this whole time, it's
Speaker 4: almost like a game of operation where the game starts
Speaker 4: shaking and the pieces get moving and next thing you know,
Speaker 4: everything pops. And that's kind of where childhood anxiety comes
Speaker 4: from sometimes. But it's just everyone is still on pins
Speaker 4: and needles because right now we have an abundance of
Speaker 4: victims that we know of. However, we're also taking into
Speaker 4: account the fact of the amount of beaches that take
Speaker 4: up Long Island. How many other victims are there of
Speaker 4: him that have not been accounted for because it's coming
Speaker 4: out that he used to be an employee of the
Speaker 4: New York State Parks Association or the New York State
Speaker 4: Police Parks, things like that. But as a beach worker
Speaker 4: in the seventies and eighties, so he's had access to
Speaker 4: vehicles beach, he knows the terrain, he's had properties there
Speaker 4: pretty much. He's residing in the childhood family home, which
Speaker 4: is from his grandparents actually, so he definitely has roots,
Speaker 4: he knows the area, and just the overall morale right
Speaker 4: now is just still incredible fear for locally, for those
Speaker 4: that do live in Massapequa Park, it's, oh my god,
Speaker 4: he lived in our neighborhood. The other side of it
Speaker 4: is I knew the guy was a weirdo and a creep,
Speaker 4: which is why we wouldn't go trigger treating at his house.
Speaker 4: The other concern now is everyone finding out that it's
Speaker 4: him and taking a look at his property. He's an architect,
Speaker 4: why is his house being held up by a two
Speaker 4: by four on the front porch. But as the information
Speaker 4: is coming out and on things that are being publicly
Speaker 4: presented as to money being found downstairs and access to
Speaker 4: public records, neighbors are finding out that his house is
Speaker 4: in shambles because he's got tax arrears on income tax
Speaker 4: on both the federal and the state levels, so he
Speaker 4: was harboring money. So there's concerns about just the criminal
Speaker 4: activity that not only encompasses the neighborhood itself, but just
Speaker 4: the Long Island region in general, and what we don't
Speaker 4: know that hasn't been developed already.
Speaker 1: All right, more, I gotta just tell you when I
Speaker 1: hear they swabbed leftover pizza Cruss and linked him to
Speaker 1: a hare found on a burlap sack with the remains
Speaker 1: of a victim, that sounds so unbelievable. That seems like
Speaker 1: that's just an episode of a TV show. Tell me,
Speaker 1: how do you balance it so that you are respectful
Speaker 1: to law enforcement, the pending case and both sides, both families.
Speaker 7: Well, you know, it is sort of a balancing and
Speaker 7: I think Carrie and Doctor Joni touched on it a
Speaker 7: little bit. That the victims are in this case obviously
Speaker 7: the ones that lost their lives or families or ones
Speaker 7: set of victims, but you know, you have the survivors
Speaker 7: of the of the people that do these crimes, and
Speaker 7: their lives are forever uprooted, so you have to be
Speaker 7: respectful to them. I've seen post online of people that
Speaker 7: are saying, oh, her hairs were found on a belt,
Speaker 7: her hair was found on one of the victims. Could
Speaker 7: she have been involved? You know, with the most likely
Speaker 7: scenario being that you know, his wife's hair was on there.
Speaker 7: Because these victims were either in his home or in
Speaker 7: his car and it's transferred DNA. So people should tread
Speaker 7: lightly when it comes to that end of it. But
Speaker 7: as far as the police investigation, you know, I've worked
Speaker 7: on you know cases before, you know, the Zodiac case,
Speaker 7: the Golden State killer case, where I've talked to investigators
Speaker 7: behind the scenes that will you share things and say, look,
Speaker 7: we need to get this out there. We want to
Speaker 7: help spread the word about this, and they'll give you insights,
Speaker 7: but they'll say, listen, you can't disclose this, you can't
Speaker 7: disclose that. And sometimes there's some really good nuggets that
Speaker 7: you think are interesting, but you know, to protect the
Speaker 7: case and not jeopardize the case or your relationship with
Speaker 7: these people that are intrusting you, you don't share it.
Speaker 7: You don't put it out there. So I think it
Speaker 7: is a balancing act for podcasters or any other media, TV, whatever,
Speaker 7: to tell a story, but be respectful to everybody involved,
Speaker 7: from the police, to the victims, to the survivors.
Speaker 1: Carrie, as you now have become an advocate when you
Speaker 1: talk to other families and you reach out specifically when
Speaker 1: you reach out to children of perpetrators, how do you
Speaker 1: do that? Like how do you maintain your sanity when
Speaker 1: this keeps coming up and it kind of you know,
Speaker 1: knocks the lid off your own PTSD and all these
Speaker 1: memories come back. But yet you have chosen to assist
Speaker 1: and to help and to show care and concern for
Speaker 1: these other children.
Speaker 5: There's a lot of back end stuff that happens with
Speaker 5: a life like mine. You're you're not like I'm an
Speaker 5: I'm a victim AVOCA and a trauma advocate and a spokesperson.
Speaker 6: I'm over here living my own trauma.
Speaker 5: I'm back in trauma therapy with a CCTP right now.
Speaker 6: That's just fantastic.
Speaker 5: So a lot of a lot of the day to
Speaker 5: day stuff that I'm doing, You're you're, the public doesn't see.
Speaker 6: I'm doing a lot of like backdoor media.
Speaker 5: Work, moving pieces around, like I'm kind of like a
Speaker 5: little communication hub with several several journalists, investigative journalists, like hey,
Speaker 5: this is going on, like this domestic violence has gone
Speaker 5: really bad, and this woman's been gunned down in our house,
Speaker 5: and you know, it needs coverage and and so all
Speaker 5: I like, I take the Facebook t and my advocate
Speaker 5: network and my missing person's networks, and then you know,
Speaker 5: I move pieces around where they need to go, and
Speaker 5: so that's part of what I do.
Speaker 6: And then when you're.
Speaker 5: Talking about like working with people like me, the reality
Speaker 5: is that, like some of us were so high profile
Speaker 5: and some of us have been living this forever that
Speaker 5: we don't necessarily really lean on each other.
Speaker 6: Some of us don't even really like.
Speaker 5: Work that well together because I don't know, like when
Speaker 5: you're all a bunch of like abuse survivors and trauma survivors,
Speaker 5: even as great as some of us are like look
Speaker 5: like we're doing, we don't always necessarily like mesh together
Speaker 5: very well. So, like I am here and I am
Speaker 5: open to helping like people like on the high profile
Speaker 5: in on the other end, And if I was working
Speaker 5: with people like I privately wall those with wall that
Speaker 5: relationship off and protect it. So the reality I'm facing
Speaker 5: right now is that I'm one person and I'm overloaded
Speaker 5: right now with like cold cases and emails, and I'm
Speaker 5: trying to work and network and build, like you know,
Speaker 5: your zone seven, I need to build my zone seven
Speaker 5: to like go tackle the world.
Speaker 1: Am in absolutely and I'll tell everybody something else. She
Speaker 1: does when she's your friend, like she is mine, she
Speaker 1: will check you.
Speaker 8: So in my.
Speaker 1: World I don't always say possibly or accused or allegedly.
Speaker 1: I sometimes just say he freaking did it. But she
Speaker 1: will sometimes gently and kindly and sweetly say, hey, Mac,
Speaker 1: you know he does have children and he isn't time
Speaker 1: to do process, so you might want to throw in
Speaker 1: he's been accused of something or it's alleged that he's
Speaker 1: done something. So every time I get one of those
Speaker 1: messages from you, it kind of makes me laugh. But
Speaker 1: at the same time, you're right, and we need to
Speaker 1: be fair on both sides, and we need to come
Speaker 1: with I think love and care and concern for everybody involved.
Speaker 1: Because your statement when you said your life is divided
Speaker 1: into two sides before and after, that's gut wrench at honey.
Speaker 1: I mean, but it's true. But I'm just saying as
Speaker 1: a mama here in that it breaks my heart.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but I mean the truth is like, it's been
Speaker 5: eighteen years and I was born. Before I was born,
Speaker 5: I was a crime victim because my mom was pregnant
Speaker 5: with me with the when my dad killed Nancy fox
Speaker 5: So on his seventh and so I was a crime
Speaker 5: victim before I was born.
Speaker 6: And I mean, you know if you're I say, like,
Speaker 6: we can't.
Speaker 5: My friend Laura Kelly, she was a journalist for the
Speaker 5: Witchita Eagle and now she does like heavy victims work.
Speaker 5: She says, like, we can't heal with things that we
Speaker 5: don't talk about, you know, and we can't deal with
Speaker 5: things we don't know, right, and so we don't know
Speaker 5: these things, and how do we deal in heal with
Speaker 5: them and we don't talk about them if we buckle
Speaker 5: down and do the Midwest. Oh, we all look fantastic
Speaker 5: on the outside with our manicured lawns, and we go
Speaker 5: to church in our Sunday finest and we serve the
Speaker 5: community and we're a Scout leader. All these things my
Speaker 5: father did you know? Then we hide really well, and
Speaker 5: we're hiding like our sexual, stadistic, psychopathic, you know, behaviors
Speaker 5: that are murdering people. So there's a lot of similarities
Speaker 5: there with my data and Rex, and that really just
Speaker 5: blew me away. I was cousin something heavy. When I
Speaker 5: was reading the Bell documents Friday, I literally cussed on Twitter.
Speaker 5: Some high did and make news, but it was not
Speaker 5: pretty Friday and Saturday, when I was processing what this
Speaker 5: man has potentially done heal and deal and do the
Speaker 5: kind of work I do to help people.
Speaker 6: You have to face facts.
Speaker 5: And I'm literally, like right now facing new facts you know,
Speaker 5: every day, really like in my own life right now
Speaker 5: with my own father. So we're just healing and dealing
Speaker 5: over here.
Speaker 1: Healing and delon. Lisa, I want to ask you something
Speaker 1: with your expertise, I think there's going to be a
Speaker 1: lot of people coming forward because this guy, again was
Speaker 1: a serial killer full time. It's what he did every day.
Speaker 1: And I think he for fun at the grocery store
Speaker 1: or the bank, or just walking down the street or
Speaker 1: catching a subway, would mess with people, would say things
Speaker 1: inappropriate to get a rise of them, to get a
Speaker 1: reaction out of them, and I think he was just
Speaker 1: playing like cat and mouse. But I do think we're
Speaker 1: going to have a ton of people come forward with
Speaker 1: real events. But I think there also maybe some people
Speaker 1: that might use this to get some attention. So with
Speaker 1: your expertise and statement analysis and polygraph how do you
Speaker 1: weed out the true reports and the fault reports.
Speaker 4: So right now, from what I've observed your social media
Speaker 4: platforms as well as the local news here, that women
Speaker 4: are coming forward that he has been on gates with
Speaker 4: them previously they were sex workers, and he had been
Speaker 4: going on dates to various restaurants throughout Long Island, the
Speaker 4: restaurants that I've heard of through these narratives, which of
Speaker 4: course I don't have any confirmation as these narratives, but
Speaker 4: the details that are being provided by these sex workers
Speaker 4: are so specific and accountable four that there really is
Speaker 4: a hard time to not believe the narrative that we're
Speaker 4: being told. And he's been hanging out on the north
Speaker 4: shore of Long Island, one specific location in Port Jefferson,
Speaker 4: and I would approximate Port Jefferson from Massive People Park
Speaker 4: is probably going to be about a forty forty five
Speaker 4: minute drive mostly highway. When it comes down to all
Speaker 4: of these people coming forward and whether they're neighbors, whether
Speaker 4: they're people that have kicked maybe some of the employees
Speaker 4: that kicked him out of Home Whole Foods, because there
Speaker 4: apparently there was a situation where he was stealing fruit.
Speaker 4: Issues pertaining to neighbors and fighting with them. There was
Speaker 4: even a woman that had come forward he had accosted
Speaker 4: her in the park even two weeks ago. There is
Speaker 4: public knowledge that his wife, who did file for divorce
Speaker 4: from him today, which we could definitely talk about. Also,
Speaker 4: she was expected to be out of town starting tomorrow
Speaker 4: in San Diego, and on the basis of the forensic
Speaker 4: evidence that's already been conducted, a lot of the crimes
Speaker 4: that he had already been in the process of being
Speaker 4: held accountable for was being done when she was traveling.
Speaker 4: So there is assumption and or possible thought that the FBI,
Speaker 4: as well as the Suffolk County Task Force in conjunction
Speaker 4: with the state Troopers and the Parks Police, decided to
Speaker 4: apprehend him now because there's a possibility of while he
Speaker 4: was under surveillance, these agents and officers saw his negative
Speaker 4: behavior and possibly thought that he has the possibility of
Speaker 4: acting out again when his wife would be traveling starting tomorrow.
Speaker 4: But we can't polygraph everyone the time, and the resources
Speaker 4: are just not there right now to go ahead and
Speaker 4: do so, So it does come down to again effective interviewing.
Speaker 4: I would hope that law enforcement will go ahead and
Speaker 4: follow up with these leads because even though they are
Speaker 4: not deceased, they still are victims of this perpetrator because
Speaker 4: obviously there was intent. I don't know how far the
Speaker 4: intentions would be going but they are still going to
Speaker 4: be a victim because they still had interaction with him.
Speaker 1: And more if I want to go back to you,
Speaker 1: because what Lisa is saying, I think is spot on.
Speaker 1: And he was purchasing more minutes for these burner phones,
Speaker 1: so clearly it looks like he's gearing up to do
Speaker 1: something nefarious. And I also think podcasts can play a
Speaker 1: role here again with people maybe coming forward to a
Speaker 1: podcaster to say, Hey, this is a safe place for
Speaker 1: me to talk about this. You helped me get to
Speaker 1: law enforcement, or maybe help me articulate what occurred with me,
Speaker 1: or some information that I.
Speaker 7: Know no doubt about it. Some people you don't want
Speaker 7: to talk about something, but they don't necessarily want to
Speaker 7: share their face on the news. Podcast could be a
Speaker 7: good outlet for that. You know, it's a good way
Speaker 7: to talk about a case.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 7: I covered the Golden State killer case extensively, and I
Speaker 7: talked to several victims of Joseph DeAngelo's who recounted the
Speaker 7: horrible things that had happened to them, But at the
Speaker 7: same time, they didn't want their faces or their names used.
Speaker 7: So it is an outlet to sort of dive into
Speaker 7: some of that stuff without you know, exposing yourself to
Speaker 7: unwanted attention that you might receive or people knowing who
Speaker 7: you were if you want to keep yourself private. But
Speaker 7: you know you mentioned talking on a podcast. I think
Speaker 7: I posted a reply to you on Facebook. I know
Speaker 7: someone through the podcast industry here that has a family
Speaker 7: member who was friends with this guy the suspects, and
Speaker 7: he was blown away. His mind was just blown away
Speaker 7: when he found out this guy was arrested. He had
Speaker 7: no clue this guy was like this. And I actually
Speaker 7: invited him on the podcast because obviously I and a
Speaker 7: million other people want learning the details we can about
Speaker 7: this this individual. And you know, he told me a
Speaker 7: couple of things, but in the end he didn't feel
Speaker 7: comfortable coming on the podcast to talk about it, so
Speaker 7: you know, I sort of have to respect that and
Speaker 7: not bring him on.
Speaker 1: But you still got intel even if he gave you
Speaker 1: just a couple of statements. You know something about this
Speaker 1: person that perhaps law enforcement doesn't. And again I tell
Speaker 1: people all the time, the media is one of the
Speaker 1: best tools that law enforcement has if they know how
Speaker 1: to utilize it. There are people that will not talk
Speaker 1: to police, that will talk to a reporter or a podcaster,
Speaker 1: And I think it is critical that we even let
Speaker 1: the people that are listening to this, you know, session,
Speaker 1: this episode, whatever you want to call it, You are
Speaker 1: free to contact anybody on this panel. Anybody on this panel,
Speaker 1: I guarantee you will help you, whether it's this case
Speaker 1: or another case. They will help you navigate where you
Speaker 1: need to get your information to and they can keep
Speaker 1: you anonymous and help you period.
Speaker 4: Joe mentioned earlier about sometimes trinkets and or trophies, and
Speaker 4: you and I had discussed offline a conversation regarding this,
Speaker 4: and we keep talking about information and the type of
Speaker 4: person that this individual is pertaining to the profile that
Speaker 4: not only law enforcement has on him, but the profile
Speaker 4: that the media is making, plus the profile of individuals
Speaker 4: observing this case from the outside. So there's a lot
Speaker 4: of characteristics and a lot of traits that sometimes are overlapping.
Speaker 4: But again, public perception and opinion do play into it
Speaker 4: sometimes when an individual develops their own thought process. And
Speaker 4: one thing that's sticking with me is the concept of
Speaker 4: trophies and on the basis of the information being seen
Speaker 4: and what I'm personally taking in, not only as an expert,
Speaker 4: but a resident of the area of where this has
Speaker 4: all been occurring. And what I've been following for the
Speaker 4: past couple of years is that I don't think and
Speaker 4: again this is my opinion that law enforcement, with all
Speaker 4: of these diggings, with going through the house, while looking
Speaker 4: at his properties in Las Vegas, locking at his properties
Speaker 4: in Massachusetts and South Carolina, because again this is now
Speaker 4: becoming a multi jurisdictional investigation, that I don't think that
Speaker 4: there's going to be trophies. I think what he's taking
Speaker 4: away from it would be referred to as metaphysical trophies,
Speaker 4: and this ties into the cell phone forensics that we're done.
Speaker 4: And what I mean by metaphysical is that he's an
Speaker 4: intelligent individual. He's smart, conversational, personable. From what other people
Speaker 4: have said throughout the interviews that do know him personally,
Speaker 4: I mean apparently his property manager in Brooklyn that knew
Speaker 4: him for thirty years referred to him as a gem
Speaker 4: to deal with and highly knowledgeable and he was a
Speaker 4: big goofy guy, but a little bit on the nerdy side.
Speaker 4: So public perception is there, obviously on the basis of
Speaker 4: interpersonal relationships. But what I think he's taking away from
Speaker 4: the victims that are associated with him are those burner
Speaker 4: phone calls to family members in the back end, I
Speaker 4: think that he's not collecting or had collected trinkets and
Speaker 4: or trophies. I think what he has taken away is
Speaker 4: the fact that he made those phone calls to family members,
Speaker 4: and that's his trophy. He took the power away from
Speaker 4: the family. So the family members now can identify his
Speaker 4: voice as the individual that took the life life of
Speaker 4: their family member. And so I think there's a very
Speaker 4: big psychology component to that. Obviously higher order thinking showing
Speaker 4: the fact that he is as knowledgeable and as smart
Speaker 4: as he is, and that, to me is probably the
Speaker 4: scariest part of what could be this investigation, the fact
Speaker 4: that he not only allegedly, and I'm going to use
Speaker 4: the word allegedly, despite all the evidence against him, committed
Speaker 4: these crimes, but then he went ahead and continued to
Speaker 4: revictimize the families on a psychological warfare component.
Speaker 1: I have never heard the term metaphysical trophy. Now you
Speaker 1: have got me fixed on that, and I understand completely
Speaker 1: because when the sister of one of the victims says
Speaker 1: he knew my name, he called me and stated my name,
Speaker 1: and he's just psychologically messing with her.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's just continuing in his mind to further be
Speaker 4: the offender that he is, but not only offend against
Speaker 4: the victim, but further victimize the family with this psychological
Speaker 4: torture and social emotional abuse by knowing the research that
Speaker 4: he had already done on them, which is discoverable obviously
Speaker 4: through the forensics that was done on the computers as
Speaker 4: well as cell phones where his Google search history is
Speaker 4: looking into the victims as well as their family members
Speaker 4: also some of the other kids that are in the family.
Speaker 4: So he really has taken it to such a degree
Speaker 4: and so far off the spectrum per se where he's
Speaker 4: looking to go ahead and continuously intentionally harm the family,
Speaker 4: which is why I think my again my opinion, but
Speaker 4: I believe that that's part of the that's his trophy,
Speaker 4: that's what he's further taking away.
Speaker 7: And we've seen this in cases before. DiAngelo did the
Speaker 7: same thing. He'd call his victims up twenty years after
Speaker 7: he attack them, just to terrorize them again. So there's
Speaker 7: definitely a history of killers doing this, reliving that moment,
Speaker 7: getting a thrill again and terrorizing victims family members of victims.
Speaker 1: It's awful more if you're absolutely right, and Carrie, I
Speaker 1: want to ask you a question. I know that you
Speaker 1: and I have talked privately, and there are sometimes people,
Speaker 1: just general public people that will right your father, and
Speaker 1: if he responds to them, they want to contact you
Speaker 1: and tell you about it, And so to me, that's
Speaker 1: another twisted way that he's trying to get to you.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I had to legally cut him off a
Speaker 5: couple of years ago. Well, so my father's a sexual
Speaker 5: statistic psychopath and a pathological liar and a narcissist, and
Speaker 5: I have a feeling Rex based on what we know
Speaker 5: is right up in that same categories as my father,
Speaker 5: very very similar critter creature here. You know, I tried
Speaker 5: really hard for years only through letters, and there were
Speaker 5: gaps where I couldn't handle it. And I tried. But
Speaker 5: then when I started becoming public and speaking up in
Speaker 5: the news and was writing a book and stuff, my
Speaker 5: dad wanted a piece of that pie, and that narcissism
Speaker 5: came back in and I just I would we could
Speaker 5: get through for just a tiny bit, like he said,
Speaker 5: I understood, you know, I had caused my family to
Speaker 5: be victims, and then all of a sudden, it was
Speaker 5: like he he wanted control again. My father is a
Speaker 5: very controlling individual, down to like a pencil or what.
Speaker 5: He had to go to the bathroom from twelve to
Speaker 5: twelve fifteen when he came home for lunch at noon
Speaker 5: every day. So heaven help you if you need to
Speaker 5: go to the bathroom, because we had one bathroom and
Speaker 5: three bedroom ranch like live with BTK and like fourteen
Speaker 5: square hundred feet, Like.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's fun.
Speaker 5: So like the reality is with somebody that controlling and narcissistic,
Speaker 5: even when they're locked away in solitary, there's are going
Speaker 5: to be running their show. And so he called it
Speaker 5: his cave and his El Canara, his el Cavera. And
Speaker 5: then he has he's the Kansas Pisces. So he's even
Speaker 5: taken on new identities now that he's in prison. And
Speaker 5: then he has like major league fans and minor league fans,
Speaker 5: and then he has people that take advantage of him
Speaker 5: that sell.
Speaker 6: Like his letters and his art. He calls them vipers.
Speaker 5: And then I call like people that contact him and
Speaker 5: then contact me. I call them his minions and his
Speaker 5: flying monkeys. I'm managing all of this insanity on a
Speaker 5: daily basis. These people hit my social media and they
Speaker 5: email me. The worst ones text me like they wait until,
Speaker 5: say they listen to this podcast or if I was
Speaker 5: live on YouTube or something.
Speaker 6: They'll wait till I'm all nice.
Speaker 5: And rattled and profiling with like, you know, like brilliant people,
Speaker 5: and then they'll wait until I log off, and then
Speaker 5: they'll text me something horrible just to rattle.
Speaker 6: Me before I go to bed.
Speaker 5: The question right now is are these people doing this
Speaker 5: on behalf of my father's and like, is my father
Speaker 5: getting off on it or is it people just bad
Speaker 5: people kind of taking advantage of my dad or enjoying like.
Speaker 6: Getting off on like his daughter. That's a big question.
Speaker 5: The reality, unfortunately, is that it never ends. I basically
Speaker 5: call myself and the other high profile families like a living, walking, breathing,
Speaker 5: never ending crime story.
Speaker 6: Unfortunately, it never ends, y'all.
Speaker 1: Here's what I want to do before we sign off.
Speaker 1: Any of you have a last thing you want to say,
Speaker 1: a SoundBite or a point or a quote, anything you
Speaker 1: want to say that we haven't touched on. Now's your chance,
Speaker 1: and I'll just start with Lisa.
Speaker 6: If you have something.
Speaker 8: The last thing that I would want to convey to
Speaker 8: the listeners of this episode is that there out there
Speaker 8: again in the media.
Speaker 4: We need as experts, in addition to viewers of this case,
Speaker 4: we need to focus on the facts just because there
Speaker 4: are theories, just because there are so many different moving
Speaker 4: parts right now. We need to not only focus on
Speaker 4: the three victims that he's allegedly being accountable for, but
Speaker 4: we also cannot forget that there are other victims. We
Speaker 4: have to stick to the facts of what's being there.
Speaker 4: And there is no problem with going down the rabbit
Speaker 4: hole and being vested and interested in a case from
Speaker 4: a learning perspective, But the facts are the facts. DNA's
Speaker 4: DNA science is science. There are more than qualified individuals
Speaker 4: that are handling this case on the federal, state, and
Speaker 4: local levels, and we need to trust them to do
Speaker 4: their job efficiently and accurately, because the last thing anyone
Speaker 4: needs is an investigation like this being rushed and possibly
Speaker 4: someone getting away and not being held accountable for their actions.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I would just say to try and be patient.
Speaker 7: I know it's human nature to want to know everything
Speaker 7: all at once and have all the answers, and the
Speaker 7: truth is it's going to take time to sort through this,
Speaker 7: you know, I hope if that if there are more
Speaker 7: victims that can be attributed to this guy, I hope
Speaker 7: that can be determined because at the end of the day,
Speaker 7: there's a lot of victims families waiting to hear what's
Speaker 7: going to happen. And I think, you know, especially if
Speaker 7: there's people talking online on social media, on you know,
Speaker 7: the citizen detectives out there that are sort of working
Speaker 7: this case and looking at other cases talking about it online. Remember,
Speaker 7: there's there's people lives that stake here. You know, a
Speaker 7: lot of these people are survivors or victims who lost
Speaker 7: someone and then again in this suspects case, his family
Speaker 7: has just had their lives imploded. So you just be
Speaker 7: patient and be respectful.
Speaker 3: Just I guess reiterate what Lisa and Mike have already said.
Speaker 3: But I guess the other thing I would say is
Speaker 3: just remembering that these were young women and they might
Speaker 3: have been escorts for a period of time in their lives,
Speaker 3: but they're not just quote sex workers. Every person who
Speaker 3: was a victim of this person, if again he has
Speaker 3: found guilty, have a life story, and that life story
Speaker 3: ended up very tragically I just think it's important to
Speaker 3: think about the fact that, you know, to the families
Speaker 3: and the friends of these young women, they weren't, you know,
Speaker 3: just sex workers. And so I think and I've been
Speaker 3: very happy that I haven't heard a lot of talk
Speaker 3: about that. And there's no question that engaging in certain
Speaker 3: behaviors that are illegal can put people at higher risk.
Speaker 3: But I just want to, I think, just reiterate that
Speaker 3: that you know, what we are much more than what
Speaker 3: we do or what we've done at a certain point
Speaker 3: in our lives, and it's important to keep that in perspective.
Speaker 2: For the victims and the families out there that are
Speaker 2: still waiting for justice, and not just for this case,
Speaker 2: but for any cold case out there. Just remember that
Speaker 2: there are men and women working hard on these who
Speaker 2: live by the model never give up, and there are
Speaker 2: people working on these cases diligently, and unfortunately sometimes this
Speaker 2: takes a long time, but we can see the fruits
Speaker 2: of their work and see exactly what their role is
Speaker 2: and how they're going to go forward and try to
Speaker 2: help bring that closure to families.
Speaker 1: Carrie, I'm gonna give you the final final word, oh Lord,
Speaker 1: no pressure, but it's got to be brilliant.
Speaker 5: I just want I just want to appreciate, thank you
Speaker 5: all for being in my life and letting me come
Speaker 5: in and out and be a trauma victim and survivor
Speaker 5: and advocate and teaching me all the Zone seven ropes.
Speaker 5: I think, what you know, my colleagues here are saying
Speaker 5: is like, we got to be patient. There's a lot
Speaker 5: more coming, I'm expecting. I always say things seem to
Speaker 5: be like, you know, it's going to get worse before
Speaker 5: it gets better, and a lot of aspects here. I'm
Speaker 5: really glad that we caught the scritter.
Speaker 6: That's amazing.
Speaker 5: I'm hopeful for these families that will keep clearing these cases.
Speaker 6: There's really nothing better than that.
Speaker 5: I mean, it doesn't change things, that doesn't bring anybody back,
Speaker 5: but being able to clear these cases is huge. And
Speaker 5: then we just got to be patient, like you know
Speaker 5: people are saying. And also we just need to remember
Speaker 5: Rex's family and keep them in mind and remember to
Speaker 5: respect them as a victim family because that's that's what
Speaker 5: they are at this point, That's what law enforcement's telling us.
Speaker 5: And seek out the good, the good, the good, you know,
Speaker 5: the good people that are trying to stay above the
Speaker 5: bar and being factual and.
Speaker 6: I don't know, just like just stick with it and and.
Speaker 5: Be productive and useful, you know, like we were talking about,
Speaker 5: like go figure out out some cold cases, or contact
Speaker 5: any of us if you have something, and we'll route
Speaker 5: it around. We all can keep working together and keep
Speaker 5: that tide moving here.
Speaker 6: We just got to do it together.
Speaker 1: Seek out the good. I love that, and you know
Speaker 1: I tell my own children, love wins. This was one
Speaker 1: evil person, but I can literally tell you there are
Speaker 1: hundreds of people trying to do something about it. So
Speaker 1: love wins. There's more good people than bad. I want
Speaker 1: to thank y'all again for being here with me, not
Speaker 1: just on this episode, but in my career and in
Speaker 1: my personal life. So I'm going to end Zone seven
Speaker 1: the way that I always do with a quote. Crime
Speaker 1: must be evaluated in its totality. There is no substitute
Speaker 1: for experience. And if you want to understand the criminal mind,
Speaker 1: you must go directly to the source and learn to
Speaker 1: decipher what he tells you. And above all, why plus
Speaker 1: how equals who? John Douglas mind Hunner. I'm Cheryl McCollum,
Speaker 1: and this is one seven