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Speaker 1: What's interesting is that the witness for the majority against

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Speaker 1: the Biden administration in this opinion turned out to be

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Speaker 1: Speaker Former Speaker Nancy Pelosi. They quote her at length

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Speaker 1: in saying, of course, the president can't just grant a

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Speaker 1: loan forgiveness, and so she's really in the argument of

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Speaker 1: the majority for saying, this is not a close call.

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Speaker 1: You really overstepped and overreached as a president, and this

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Speaker 1: is now unconstitutional.

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Speaker 2: Supreme Court says, hey, Joe Biden, you can't just wipe

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Speaker 2: out kids loans or tens of thousands of dollars with

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Speaker 2: their loans. The fact that they were quoting Nancy Pelosi

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Speaker 2: because she accurately said, trying to speak truth to her

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Speaker 2: own troops, it's illegal.

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Speaker 3: May I quote Supreme Court Justice Nelson Months.

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Speaker 2: Chris Hayes of MSNBC with this tweet right after the

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Speaker 2: decision came down. Lots of very bad things, This six

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Speaker 2: to three majority is done, Dobbs being the worst, but

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Speaker 2: them deciding you are now ten thousand dollars poorer than

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Speaker 2: you were yesterday is really a hell of a thing.

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Speaker 3: Everything's performative all the time, and it's tiring me out.

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Speaker 3: Here's a man who quests for the truth. Can you

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Speaker 3: use quest as a verb? M oh? Tim Sander for

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Speaker 3: Vice president for litigation with the Goldwater Institute. Tim the lawyer,

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Speaker 3: longtime good friend of the Armstrong and Getty show. Tim.

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Speaker 3: How are you, sir?

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Speaker 4: I'm great, Thanks for having me back. I think quest

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Speaker 4: as a verb is okay, only in the context of

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Speaker 4: dungeons and dragons.

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Speaker 2: There you go, mild dad, No, you were you a

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Speaker 2: D and D person when you were younger.

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Speaker 4: I have always hated dungeons and dragon Okay.

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Speaker 3: I'm trying to figure why the dungeons because it smacks

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Speaker 3: in the cruel and unusual pole.

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Speaker 4: Always. It just feels so dumb to sit there and

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Speaker 4: have somebody tell you you're going down a dark hallway or

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Speaker 4: something like that. It's almost it's almost as it's like

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Speaker 4: it's as bad as sports, but without the sweating.

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Speaker 3: Yeah there's a quote.

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Speaker 4: Okay, Well, so what do you talk about? You talk

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Speaker 4: about MCing a football game. Here's a trivia question for you.

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Speaker 4: I actually want mced a basketball game. If you can

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Speaker 4: believe it.

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Speaker 2: How did that happen? Was there literally no one else

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Speaker 2: to ask?

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Speaker 4: So totally the worst. Possibly some idiot got the idea

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Speaker 4: that it would be really funny, since I don't know

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Speaker 4: anything about basketball, to have the MC the local game

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Speaker 4: between the teachers versus the police department.

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Speaker 2: They were right about that, that would be funny.

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Speaker 4: I was smart enough to realize what a bad idea.

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Speaker 4: This was a brought along a friend to do a

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Speaker 4: lot about basketball. So it worked out okay, But that

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Speaker 4: was Yeah, it was one of the weirder moments of

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Speaker 4: my life.

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Speaker 3: Wow, how odd. I almost hate to get back to

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Speaker 3: the recent Supreme Court decisions. I feel like we should.

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Speaker 3: So where would you like to start?

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Speaker 2: What's got your hack?

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Speaker 4: Let me let's say this about yesterday's affirmative action ruling.

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Speaker 4: Yesterday's decision was Brown versus Board of Education for Asians.

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Speaker 4: Yesterday's decision was saying, we can't keep ignoring the fact

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Speaker 4: that these race preference schemes that the colleges insist on

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Speaker 4: keeping in place are a form of discrimination that is

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Speaker 4: purposely keeping Asian Americans out of our colleges, aimed at

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Speaker 4: keeping out hard working kids who don't deserve to be

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Speaker 4: treated in that way. And yesterday was a great vindication

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Speaker 4: of the principle that all men are created equal and

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Speaker 4: it's really a shame that the liberal side of this

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Speaker 4: that keeps denouncing this opinion is, in the midst of

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Speaker 4: their denunciations, are proving why it was necessary by totally

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Speaker 4: ignoring the fact that Asian Americans are an important ethnic

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Speaker 4: group in this country that deserve to have their equal rights.

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Speaker 4: It's always being treated as black versus white, and they're Asians.

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Speaker 4: As Justice Thomas points out, Asians are totally being omitted

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Speaker 4: from the equation in all these discussions. So yesterday's decision

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Speaker 4: was brown versus Board of Education for Asians.

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Speaker 2: So, since you're a student of this sort of thing,

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Speaker 2: are some of the opinions more pointed at fellow justices

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Speaker 2: than normal? They seem like they are.

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Speaker 4: To me, Yeah, it certainly seems that way, Justice Thomas.

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Speaker 4: Justice Thomas's concurring opinion, which is almost sixty pages long.

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Speaker 4: He's been waiting basically his whole career to write this opinion,

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Speaker 4: is aimed at the dissent, particularly Justice Jackson, with a

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Speaker 4: it's ferocious. Now I agree with it, and so I

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Speaker 4: love the fact that it's ferocious, but it is quite

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Speaker 4: quite direct, and justics Jackson kind of steps back in

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Speaker 4: her response. She responds in only one footnote, where she says,

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Speaker 4: I don't know what he's talking about. I didn't say

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Speaker 4: the things he's accusing me of saying. But if you

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Speaker 4: read her opinion, she actually is.

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Speaker 2: Well and today Gorsa saying in the student loan thing too,

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Speaker 2: I think it was so my r. I can't believe

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Speaker 2: we're looking at the same case. I mean, that just

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Speaker 2: seems snarkier than usual.

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Speaker 4: It does now. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

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Speaker 4: I think the American people deserve to have the severe

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Speaker 4: legal and constitutional differences between the justices aired in public.

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Speaker 4: That these people work for us, and we have a

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Speaker 4: right to see what they think, both about the law

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Speaker 4: and about each other. But it must mean that the

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Speaker 4: office Chris, this party is a little tense.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I would think so for those who are not

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Speaker 3: super hip to what was in the decision and the

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Speaker 3: concurrences and that sort of thing. What was Clarence's Thomas,

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Speaker 3: what was Thomas's main point?

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Speaker 4: Well, here's my favorite point in the opinion that I

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Speaker 4: think really boils it all down. He says, quote, today's

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Speaker 4: seventeen year olds did not live through the Jim Crow

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Speaker 4: era in act or enforced segregation laws or take any

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Speaker 4: action to oppress or enslave the victims of the past.

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Speaker 4: Whatever their skin color, Today's youth simply are not responsible

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Speaker 4: for instituting the segregation of the twentieth century, and they

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Speaker 4: do not shoulder the moral debts of their ancestors. Our

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Speaker 4: nations should not punish today's youth for the sins of

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Speaker 4: the past. End quote. I think that is the perfect

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Speaker 4: summation of the argument against these race counting admission schemes

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Speaker 4: that punish innocent people, particularly Asians, for crimes that even

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Speaker 4: their ancestors didn't commit a lot of these people came

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Speaker 4: to the country after Jim Crow, after slavery, and yet

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Speaker 4: here we have these affirmative our action programs that count

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Speaker 4: people's skin color in order to give preferences supposedly to

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Speaker 4: remedy the crimes of centuries that before the victims even around.

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Speaker 2: So is this going to have tentacles reaching out into

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Speaker 2: other parts of American life, like hiring or anything else.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's There is a notable footnote in the main

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Speaker 4: opinion that says we're not talking about military and it

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Speaker 4: basically invites the next lawsuit to be about how military

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Speaker 4: academies and military recruitment, military, how all of that stuff.

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Speaker 4: They also have their own affirmative action programs, and I

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Speaker 4: think that's the next big front that we're going to

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Speaker 4: see coming. And the Court in this opinion explicitly says

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Speaker 4: we're not going to talk about that now, We'll talk

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Speaker 4: about that in a future.

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Speaker 2: Well, I wish I had Katanji Brown's actual quote in

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Speaker 2: front of me, because she said something along the lines of,

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Speaker 2: so it's okay to have black people in our bunkers

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Speaker 2: fighting our wars, but not in our college classrooms.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, I don't know the ideological blinders of people

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Speaker 4: who are so wedded to affirmative action. And as you

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Speaker 4: mentioned earlier, you know, seventy percent of the American people

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Speaker 4: think that these programs are wrong. And the people who

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Speaker 4: treat yesterday's opinion as being some sort of, you know,

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Speaker 4: terrible setback for the civil rights movement are very much

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Speaker 4: out of step not only with reality but with the

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Speaker 4: way the American people see reality. And yet they act

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Speaker 4: as if they are obviously right. And it's really a

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Speaker 4: way of insulating themselves in a way that I think

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Speaker 4: really shows up in the opinion.

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Speaker 3: So, and we can jump back and forth as we like,

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Speaker 3: but I want to talk a little bit more about

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Speaker 3: this student loan forgiveness decision. And I'm well aware of

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Speaker 3: my own ideology, but I'm also enough of a neutral

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Speaker 3: observer in these things to feel like I have reasonably

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Speaker 3: well based opinions. And I told my three adult kids,

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Speaker 3: do not make any financial plans based on your student

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Speaker 3: loans being forgiven to the tune to ten thousand dollars

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Speaker 3: or whatever. It's not going to happen. It can't happen.

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Speaker 3: It's so clearly executive overreach. There's no way the courts

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Speaker 3: let it through. And that wasn't just based on the

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Speaker 3: composition of the court. What in the world were the

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Speaker 3: arguments of the dissenters saying it's fine for the executive

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Speaker 3: branch to do this.

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Speaker 4: Well, Joe, you have more confidence in the courts than well,

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Speaker 4: frankly I do, because you were right about the law.

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Speaker 4: But the law is one thing, and what the courts

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Speaker 4: are actually going to do is a totally different thing.

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Speaker 4: Sometimes this time you were right. The court did what

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Speaker 4: the law required, but that doesn't always happen. Now, the

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Speaker 4: case is about this a statute that says that the

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Speaker 4: secretary that is the President can modify the obligations of

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Speaker 4: these student loans. And that's the word modify. And the

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Speaker 4: question is, does modify mean that the secretary can wipe

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Speaker 4: out really an enormous amount of money. Here, here's what

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Speaker 4: the opinion says. The economic and political significance of the

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Speaker 4: Terry's action is staggering. Practically every student bar where will benefit.

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Speaker 4: He says, this is a third, it amounts to nearly

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Speaker 4: one third of the government. It's one point seven trillion

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Speaker 4: dollars in annual discretionary spending. So what this is saying

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Speaker 4: that the Secretary of Education does unilaterally wipe out an

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Speaker 4: enormous amount of student debt. That and with the stroke

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Speaker 4: of a pen. Now, Congress is supposed to be making

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Speaker 4: the laws. They're not supposed to be handing this authority

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Speaker 4: off to the president. And yet the President is claiming, oh, well,

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Speaker 4: you know, we have I have the authority to basically

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Speaker 4: make the law because Congress has given me this power.

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Speaker 4: That really is staggerant. And it's a good example of

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Speaker 4: why you and I are always talking about the dangers

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Speaker 4: of the administrative state, the dangers of regulatory bureaucracies, where

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Speaker 4: the courts just stand back and let them just make

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Speaker 4: the law however they want to. This is a perfect

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Speaker 4: example of that. Incidentally, it also overlaps with the affirmative

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Speaker 4: action case because the descent Justice Jackson and her descent.

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Speaker 4: She says, well, what we ought to do is trust

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Speaker 4: the experts. The experts say that affirmative action programs, in

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Speaker 4: race counting and all this is necessary to equalize society.

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Speaker 4: So we ought to trust the experts. Well, if this

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Speaker 4: whole attitude of well we should have this elite group

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Speaker 4: of bureaucrats who decide how we live our lives in

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Speaker 4: order to accomplish justice has that notion is really stuck

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Speaker 4: in the minds of the leftists on the court.

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Speaker 3: You know, I've been flogging your book Freedom's Furies lately repeatedly,

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Speaker 3: partly because I found the parts of the book that

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Speaker 3: deal with the flirtation's the wrong word. It's just. A

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Speaker 3: preference for totalitarianism among the left in the early mid

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Speaker 3: twentieth century was shocking to me. It was part of

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Speaker 3: history that I wasn't really familiar with. The idea that, look,

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Speaker 3: we'll get experts together, they'll plan everything and will bring

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Speaker 3: you a utopia.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and that went along with the Supreme Court creating

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Speaker 4: these doctrines about deference and not protecting property rights and

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Speaker 4: not protecting economic liberty. All those things are going on

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Speaker 4: at the same time, and we are stuck with the

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Speaker 4: legacy of that. In many ways to this day. The

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Speaker 4: Supreme Court refuses to enforce property rights, refuses to enforce

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Speaker 4: economic freedom in wide areas of life, and the reason

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Speaker 4: is because of the legal precedents that date back to

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Speaker 4: the nineteen thirties, when this country and in fact all

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Speaker 4: of all of the world civilizations really kind of bought

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Speaker 4: the idea that the dictatorship was a good thing. The

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Speaker 4: person who is really responsible for this largely is Benito Mussolini.

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Speaker 4: We often forget about Mussolini because we always think about

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Speaker 4: that era. We think about people like Hitler. But Mussolini

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Speaker 4: invented the idea of this of fascist dictatorship in the

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Speaker 4: nineteen twenties, and for almost an entire decade, everybody's like, wow,

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Speaker 4: he makes the trains run on time. He's really getting

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Speaker 4: things done over there. Sure, maybe he murders his political opponents,

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Speaker 4: but he's really getting the trains to run on time.

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Speaker 4: And that attitude still exists today in the minds of

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Speaker 4: a lot of people who think that democracy and persuasion

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Speaker 4: and argument are just time wasting, and what we ought

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Speaker 4: to do is just force people to do what we

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Speaker 4: think is right.

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Speaker 2: Here, I think is an important question that I've asked before.

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Speaker 2: Because we're going to hear the President called this a

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Speaker 2: rogue court yesterday. You're going to hear a lot about

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Speaker 2: that over the weekend and probably on the Sunday talk

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Speaker 2: shows and that sort of stuff about this is a

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Speaker 2: right wing outlier court, you know, unbalanced or whatever they

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Speaker 2: call it. Where does this court fit in if you

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Speaker 2: had a one to five scale, one being the most liberal,

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Speaker 2: five being the most conservative, Like where was the Warren

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Speaker 2: Court or where were in most of the courts in

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Speaker 2: modern history, and where's this one?

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Speaker 4: Well, when you're so far to the left, any movement

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Speaker 4: to the right is going to look extreme. So that's

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Speaker 4: why you get reactions from people like that. The reality

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Speaker 4: is that this is a moderately conservative court that in

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Speaker 4: some ways they're doing what they think is correcting the

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Speaker 4: errors of the past, and so that keyn and seem extreme,

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Speaker 4: for example in the Dobbs case and so forth. But

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Speaker 4: for the most part, the court is is not picking fights.

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Speaker 4: For the most part, its decisions are not particularly radical. However,

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Speaker 4: my initial reaction when I hear the President of the

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Speaker 4: United States say that the Supreme Court is a rogue court,

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Speaker 4: My question is, what would you prefer an obedient court?

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Speaker 4: A court that takes off its hat and bows. He

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Speaker 4: would say, yes, sir, whatever you liked, sir. Well do

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Speaker 4: whatever you like, sir. We have a separation of powers

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Speaker 4: in this country in order to balance these three branches legislative, judicial,

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Speaker 4: and executive against each other to protect individual freedom. It's

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Speaker 4: not supposed to the courts are not supposed to just say, oh, well,

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Speaker 4: the President says that it must be okay, Oh will

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Speaker 4: of Congress does it? It must be okay. The role

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Speaker 4: of the court is to enforce the Constitution, and that

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Speaker 4: means striking things down that violate this nation's fundamental law.

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Speaker 4: And that's what they've been doing. So I don't understand

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Speaker 4: why we call, oh, it's a rogue court. The court

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Speaker 4: is not supposed to be obedient.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's going to be painful and expensive, but I'm

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Speaker 3: going to get that screened tattooed on my chest during

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Speaker 3: the fourth of July vacation.

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Speaker 2: I love the idea that the Supreme Court has one

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Speaker 2: collective hat.

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Speaker 4: Add the cost of that tattoo joe to the student

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Speaker 4: loans are going to have to help you pay.

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Speaker 3: That's a good point. Tim Sander for vice president for

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Speaker 3: the litigation that the Goldwater Institute. Tim, you brought it

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Speaker 3: solid gold. Thanks a million.

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Speaker 2: That was awesome.

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Speaker 4: Thanks guys,