1
00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:27,956
Speaker 1: Pushkin. This episode contains explicit language. Revision's History listeners Malcolm

2
00:00:27,996 --> 00:00:31,316
Speaker 1: glad we'll hear. I've written a new book called Talking

3
00:00:31,356 --> 00:00:34,276
Speaker 1: to Strangers, and it's about the mistakes we make in

4
00:00:34,316 --> 00:00:38,196
Speaker 1: our interactions with people we don't know. Talking to Strangers

5
00:00:38,196 --> 00:00:42,236
Speaker 1: features con artists and sociopaths and spies. It talks about

6
00:00:42,236 --> 00:00:44,476
Speaker 1: how drinking affects the way we make sense of others.

7
00:00:44,916 --> 00:00:47,756
Speaker 1: I spend time with the psychologist who ran the CIA's

8
00:00:47,796 --> 00:00:51,556
Speaker 1: interrogation program and the man who spotted Bernie Madoff before

9
00:00:51,556 --> 00:00:54,276
Speaker 1: anyone else, and I try to get to the bottom

10
00:00:54,596 --> 00:00:57,836
Speaker 1: of a heartbreaking encounter between a police officer and a

11
00:00:57,876 --> 00:01:00,836
Speaker 1: civilian which resulted in the death of a young woman

12
00:01:00,916 --> 00:01:04,036
Speaker 1: named Sandra Bland in Texas. I think it's a book

13
00:01:04,236 --> 00:01:07,916
Speaker 1: that will prompt a lot of conversations and arguments, which,

14
00:01:08,076 --> 00:01:10,596
Speaker 1: as you know from Rege History, is what I like

15
00:01:10,676 --> 00:01:14,076
Speaker 1: to do. I'm very proud of it. And there's something

16
00:01:14,076 --> 00:01:17,196
Speaker 1: else I'm proud of with Talking to Strangers. After making

17
00:01:17,276 --> 00:01:20,716
Speaker 1: four seasons of Revisionist History, I've fallen in love with

18
00:01:20,756 --> 00:01:23,956
Speaker 1: a kind of storytelling that can be done through a podcast,

19
00:01:24,636 --> 00:01:27,036
Speaker 1: and I decided that I wanted to bring that same

20
00:01:27,076 --> 00:01:31,316
Speaker 1: approach to the audiobook of Talking to Strangers. Normally, an

21
00:01:31,316 --> 00:01:34,676
Speaker 1: audiobook is just the author or someone the author hires,

22
00:01:35,076 --> 00:01:37,676
Speaker 1: reading into a microphone. I didn't want to do that.

23
00:01:38,236 --> 00:01:41,196
Speaker 1: I wanted to make this audiobook of Talking to Strangers

24
00:01:41,516 --> 00:01:46,036
Speaker 1: as compelling as an episode of revisionist history. So if

25
00:01:46,076 --> 00:01:49,036
Speaker 1: you listen to the audiobook, you'll hear the voices of

26
00:01:49,036 --> 00:01:53,116
Speaker 1: the people I interview, and if I'm describing some historical event,

27
00:01:53,396 --> 00:01:57,716
Speaker 1: you'll hear archival tape for courtroom scenes. We have actors

28
00:01:57,836 --> 00:02:02,036
Speaker 1: reimagining what happened. There's music, an extraordinary song by Jenelle

29
00:02:02,076 --> 00:02:06,516
Speaker 1: money Scoring. We even have excerpts from other audiobooks and

30
00:02:06,676 --> 00:02:11,516
Speaker 1: podcasts like The Fantastic Believed from NPR and Michigan Radio.

31
00:02:11,596 --> 00:02:15,116
Speaker 1: I think the result is a completely different kind of

32
00:02:15,196 --> 00:02:22,116
Speaker 1: audiobook experience, much more powerful, moving, engrossing. Anyway, rather than

33
00:02:22,196 --> 00:02:25,476
Speaker 1: describe it, I thought I would give you a special preview.

34
00:02:25,836 --> 00:02:30,076
Speaker 1: So here it is Chapter three of Talking to Strangers

35
00:02:30,316 --> 00:02:52,436
Speaker 1: done the New way. Let's take a look at another

36
00:02:52,516 --> 00:02:58,316
Speaker 1: Cuban spy story. In the early nineteen nineties, thousands of

37
00:02:58,396 --> 00:03:01,996
Speaker 1: Cubans began to flee the regime of Fidel Castro. They

38
00:03:01,996 --> 00:03:05,516
Speaker 1: cobbled together crewde boats made of inner tubes and metal

39
00:03:05,596 --> 00:03:08,316
Speaker 1: drums and wooden doors, and any number of other stray parts.

40
00:03:09,116 --> 00:03:11,956
Speaker 1: They set out on a desperate voyage across the ninety

41
00:03:12,036 --> 00:03:15,676
Speaker 1: miles of the Florida Straits to the United States. By

42
00:03:15,716 --> 00:03:18,916
Speaker 1: one estimate, as many as twenty four thousand people died

43
00:03:18,956 --> 00:03:24,396
Speaker 1: attempting the journey. It was a human rights disaster. In response,

44
00:03:24,676 --> 00:03:27,756
Speaker 1: a group of Cuban Emigreys in Miami founded Ermanos el

45
00:03:27,836 --> 00:03:31,916
Speaker 1: Riscat Brothers to the Rescue. They put together a makeshift

46
00:03:31,956 --> 00:03:35,516
Speaker 1: air force of single engine Cessna Skymasters and took to

47
00:03:35,556 --> 00:03:39,036
Speaker 1: the skies over the Florida Straits, searching for refugees from

48
00:03:39,076 --> 00:03:43,316
Speaker 1: the air and radioating their coordinates to the Coastguard. Ermanos

49
00:03:43,356 --> 00:03:48,356
Speaker 1: el Riscate saved thousands of lives. They became heroes. As

50
00:03:48,396 --> 00:03:52,476
Speaker 1: time passed, the Emigreys grew more ambitious. They began flying

51
00:03:52,516 --> 00:03:56,596
Speaker 1: into Cuban airspace, dropping leaflets on Havana, urging the Cuban

52
00:03:56,636 --> 00:04:00,636
Speaker 1: people to rise up against Castro's regime. The Cuban government,

53
00:04:00,916 --> 00:04:05,396
Speaker 1: already embarrassed by the flight of refugees, was outraged. Tensions rose,

54
00:04:05,756 --> 00:04:09,036
Speaker 1: coming to a head on February twenty fourth, nineteen ninety six.

55
00:04:09,836 --> 00:04:13,316
Speaker 1: That afternoon, three Armanos al riscate planes took off for

56
00:04:13,356 --> 00:04:17,276
Speaker 1: the Florida Straits. As they neared the Cuban coastline, two

57
00:04:17,356 --> 00:04:20,236
Speaker 1: Cuban Air Force meg Fighter jets shot down two of

58
00:04:20,236 --> 00:04:23,356
Speaker 1: the planes out of the sky, killing all four people aboard.

59
00:04:24,196 --> 00:04:28,036
Speaker 1: The response to the attack was immediate. The United States

60
00:04:28,036 --> 00:04:32,556
Speaker 1: Security Council passed a resolution denouncing the Cuban government a grave.

61
00:04:32,756 --> 00:04:35,276
Speaker 1: President Clinton held a press conference.

62
00:04:35,436 --> 00:04:38,916
Speaker 2: Ladies and gentlemen, I have just been briefed by the

63
00:04:38,996 --> 00:04:44,036
Speaker 2: National Security Advisor on the shooting down today in broad

64
00:04:44,396 --> 00:04:49,596
Speaker 2: daylight two American civilian airplanes by a Cuban military aircraft.

65
00:04:50,396 --> 00:04:55,196
Speaker 1: The Cuban emigrat population in Miami was furious. The two

66
00:04:55,196 --> 00:04:58,836
Speaker 1: planes had been shot down in international airspace, making the

67
00:04:58,916 --> 00:05:02,476
Speaker 1: incident tantamount to an act of war. The radio chatter

68
00:05:02,556 --> 00:05:11,396
Speaker 1: among the Cuban pilots was released to the press. We

69
00:05:11,516 --> 00:05:16,036
Speaker 1: hit him, Cohonis, we hit him. We retired them, Cohonis,

70
00:05:16,116 --> 00:05:19,436
Speaker 1: we hit them fuckers. Mark the place where we retired them.

71
00:05:19,876 --> 00:05:23,596
Speaker 1: This one won't fuck with us anymore. And then after

72
00:05:23,596 --> 00:05:25,596
Speaker 1: one of the MiGs zeroed in on the second Cessna

73
00:05:26,236 --> 00:05:32,836
Speaker 1: Homeland or Deathew Bastards, But in the midst of the controversy,

74
00:05:33,236 --> 00:05:37,756
Speaker 1: the story suddenly shifted. A retired US rear admiral named

75
00:05:37,756 --> 00:05:41,916
Speaker 1: Eugene Carroll gave an interview to CNN. Carol was an

76
00:05:41,956 --> 00:05:46,236
Speaker 1: influential figure inside Washington. He had formerly served as director

77
00:05:46,236 --> 00:05:49,556
Speaker 1: of all US Armed Forces in Europe, with seven thousand

78
00:05:49,556 --> 00:05:54,276
Speaker 1: weapons at his disposal. Just before the Armanos El Roscotte shootdown,

79
00:05:54,516 --> 00:05:57,596
Speaker 1: Carol said he and a small group of military analysts

80
00:05:57,636 --> 00:06:02,636
Speaker 1: had met with top Cuban officials. CNN's Katherine Callaway interviewed

81
00:06:02,676 --> 00:06:06,036
Speaker 1: Carrol to try and make sense of it all. Admiral,

82
00:06:06,556 --> 00:06:08,676
Speaker 1: can you tell me what happened on your trip to Cuba,

83
00:06:09,236 --> 00:06:11,916
Speaker 1: who you spoke with, and what you were told? Then,

84
00:06:11,956 --> 00:06:16,636
Speaker 1: Carol says, we were hosted by the Ministry Defense General

85
00:06:16,676 --> 00:06:22,476
Speaker 1: Rossalis del Toro. We traveled around, inspected Cuban bases, Cuban schools,

86
00:06:22,676 --> 00:06:26,236
Speaker 1: their partially completed nuclear power plant, and so on. In

87
00:06:26,316 --> 00:06:29,476
Speaker 1: long discussions with General Rosales del Toro and his staff,

88
00:06:29,836 --> 00:06:33,156
Speaker 1: the question came up about these overflights from US aircraft,

89
00:06:33,796 --> 00:06:37,876
Speaker 1: not government aircraft, but private airplanes operating out of Miami.

90
00:06:38,276 --> 00:06:41,196
Speaker 1: They asked US what would happen if we shot one

91
00:06:41,236 --> 00:06:44,796
Speaker 1: of those down? We can you know? Carol says he

92
00:06:44,836 --> 00:06:47,836
Speaker 1: interpreted that question from his Cuban hosts as a thinly

93
00:06:47,916 --> 00:06:52,996
Speaker 1: veiled warning. Then Callaway asks, so, when you returned, who

94
00:06:53,036 --> 00:06:57,236
Speaker 1: did you relay this information to? Carol replies, as soon

95
00:06:57,276 --> 00:07:00,396
Speaker 1: as we could make appointments, we discussed the situation with

96
00:07:00,516 --> 00:07:03,356
Speaker 1: members of the State Department and members of the Defense

97
00:07:03,476 --> 00:07:10,596
Speaker 1: Intelligence Agency. The Defense Intelligence Agency THEA is the third

98
00:07:10,796 --> 00:07:14,436
Speaker 1: arm of the foreign intelligence triumvirate in the US government,

99
00:07:14,876 --> 00:07:19,156
Speaker 1: along with the CIA and the National Security Agency. If

100
00:07:19,236 --> 00:07:22,276
Speaker 1: Carol had met with the State Department and the DIA,

101
00:07:22,676 --> 00:07:25,556
Speaker 1: he had delivered the Cuban warning about as high up

102
00:07:25,636 --> 00:07:29,236
Speaker 1: in the American government as you could go. And did

103
00:07:29,316 --> 00:07:32,716
Speaker 1: the State Department and the DiiA take those warnings to heart?

104
00:07:33,556 --> 00:07:36,716
Speaker 1: Did they step in and stop Armanos el Rascote from

105
00:07:36,756 --> 00:07:43,076
Speaker 1: continuing their reckless forays into Cuban airspace? Obviously not, Carrol's

106
00:07:43,076 --> 00:07:47,596
Speaker 1: comments ricochet around Washington d C. Policy circles. This was

107
00:07:47,716 --> 00:07:53,236
Speaker 1: an embarrassing revelation. The Cuban shootdown happened on February twenty fourth.

108
00:07:53,836 --> 00:07:57,396
Speaker 1: Carol's warnings to the State Department and DIA were delivered

109
00:07:57,436 --> 00:08:02,956
Speaker 1: on February twenty third. A prominent Washington insider met with

110
00:08:02,996 --> 00:08:07,876
Speaker 1: the US officials the day before the crisis explicitly warned

111
00:08:07,876 --> 00:08:10,956
Speaker 1: them that the Cubans had lost patients with Armanos el Riscote,

112
00:08:11,556 --> 00:08:15,476
Speaker 1: and his warning was ignored. What began as a Cuban

113
00:08:15,516 --> 00:08:20,956
Speaker 1: atrocity was now transformed into a story about American diplomatic incompetence.

114
00:08:22,116 --> 00:08:26,116
Speaker 1: By February twenty fifth, when Carol spoke with CNN, it's

115
00:08:26,156 --> 00:08:30,316
Speaker 1: clear that this perception had already sunk in. Fidel Castro

116
00:08:30,436 --> 00:08:33,756
Speaker 1: wasn't being invited onto CNN to defend himself, but he

117
00:08:33,796 --> 00:08:36,836
Speaker 1: didn't need to be. He had a rear admiral making

118
00:08:36,836 --> 00:08:43,036
Speaker 1: his case. Does anything about Admiral Carroll and the Cuban

119
00:08:43,116 --> 00:08:48,156
Speaker 1: shootdowns strike you as odd? There are an awful lot

120
00:08:48,196 --> 00:08:53,316
Speaker 1: of coincidences here. First, the Cubans plan a deliberate, murderous

121
00:08:53,316 --> 00:08:59,036
Speaker 1: attack on US citizens flying in international airspace. Second, it

122
00:08:59,236 --> 00:09:02,556
Speaker 1: just so happens that the day before the attack, a

123
00:09:02,596 --> 00:09:07,036
Speaker 1: prominent military insider delivers a stern warning to US officials

124
00:09:07,236 --> 00:09:12,676
Speaker 1: about the possibility of exacs that action. And third, that

125
00:09:12,756 --> 00:09:17,756
Speaker 1: warning frituitously puts that same official the day after the attack,

126
00:09:18,196 --> 00:09:20,996
Speaker 1: in a position to make the Cuban case on one

127
00:09:21,036 --> 00:09:25,436
Speaker 1: of the world's most respected news networks. The timing of

128
00:09:25,556 --> 00:09:28,756
Speaker 1: those three events is a little too perfect, isn't it.

129
00:09:29,676 --> 00:09:32,276
Speaker 1: If you were a public relations firm trying to mute

130
00:09:32,276 --> 00:09:36,076
Speaker 1: the fallout from a very controversial action, that's exactly how

131
00:09:36,116 --> 00:09:40,476
Speaker 1: you'd script it. Have a seemingly neutral expert available right

132
00:09:40,516 --> 00:09:44,676
Speaker 1: away to say I warned them. This is what a

133
00:09:44,756 --> 00:09:48,996
Speaker 1: military counterintelligence analyst named Reg Brown thought in the days

134
00:09:48,996 --> 00:09:52,556
Speaker 1: after the incident. Brown worked on the Latin American desk

135
00:09:52,676 --> 00:09:56,636
Speaker 1: of the Defense Intelligence Agency. His job was to understand

136
00:09:56,716 --> 00:09:59,996
Speaker 1: the ways in which the Cuban intelligence services were trying

137
00:10:00,036 --> 00:10:04,636
Speaker 1: to influence American military operations. His business, in other words,

138
00:10:05,036 --> 00:10:07,956
Speaker 1: was to be alert to the kinds of nuances, subtleties,

139
00:10:07,996 --> 00:10:11,396
Speaker 1: and unexplained co incidences that the rest of US ignore.

140
00:10:12,316 --> 00:10:15,676
Speaker 1: And Brown couldn't shake the feeling that somehow the Cubans

141
00:10:15,716 --> 00:10:20,076
Speaker 1: had orchestrated the whole crisis. It turned out, for example,

142
00:10:20,316 --> 00:10:23,556
Speaker 1: that the Cubans had a source inside Armanos el Roscote,

143
00:10:24,036 --> 00:10:27,876
Speaker 1: a pilot named Juan Pablo RoCE. On the day before

144
00:10:27,916 --> 00:10:32,676
Speaker 1: the attack, Roque had disappeared and resurfaced at Castro's side

145
00:10:32,716 --> 00:10:36,316
Speaker 1: in Havana. Clearly, Roque told his bosses back home that

146
00:10:36,396 --> 00:10:39,596
Speaker 1: Armanos al Riscote had something planned for the twenty fourth.

147
00:10:40,516 --> 00:10:43,036
Speaker 1: That made it very difficult for Brown to imagine that

148
00:10:43,156 --> 00:10:45,916
Speaker 1: the date of the Carol briefing had been chosen by

149
00:10:46,036 --> 00:10:51,236
Speaker 1: chance for maximum public relations impact. The Cubans would want

150
00:10:51,276 --> 00:10:54,956
Speaker 1: their warning delivered the day before, wouldn't they That way,

151
00:10:54,996 --> 00:10:58,076
Speaker 1: the State Department and the DIA couldn't wiggle out of

152
00:10:58,076 --> 00:11:00,596
Speaker 1: the problem by saying that the warning was vague or

153
00:11:00,636 --> 00:11:04,476
Speaker 1: long ago. Carol's words were right in front of them

154
00:11:04,476 --> 00:11:08,036
Speaker 1: on the day the pilots took off from Miami. So

155
00:11:08,516 --> 00:11:13,356
Speaker 1: who ragned that meeting? Brown wondered who picked February twenty third.

156
00:11:14,436 --> 00:11:16,996
Speaker 1: He did some digging, and the name he came up

157
00:11:17,076 --> 00:11:20,716
Speaker 1: with startled him. It was a colleague of his DIA,

158
00:11:21,396 --> 00:11:26,476
Speaker 1: a Cuba expert named Anna Balen Montes. Anna Montes was

159
00:11:26,516 --> 00:11:30,436
Speaker 1: a star. She had been selected repeatedly for promotions and

160
00:11:30,476 --> 00:11:35,476
Speaker 1: special career opportunities, showered with accolades and bonuses. Her reviews

161
00:11:35,516 --> 00:11:38,476
Speaker 1: were glowing. She had come to the DIA from the

162
00:11:38,516 --> 00:11:41,716
Speaker 1: Department of Justice, and in his recommendation One of her

163
00:11:41,756 --> 00:11:45,516
Speaker 1: former supervisors described her as the best employee he had

164
00:11:45,596 --> 00:11:49,196
Speaker 1: ever had. She once got a medal from George Tennant,

165
00:11:49,276 --> 00:11:53,156
Speaker 1: the director of the CIA. Her nickname inside the intelligence

166
00:11:53,196 --> 00:12:00,156
Speaker 1: community was the Queen of Cuba. Weeks past, Brown agonized

167
00:12:00,876 --> 00:12:03,396
Speaker 1: to accuse a colleague of treachery on the basis of

168
00:12:03,476 --> 00:12:08,356
Speaker 1: such semi paranoid speculation. Was an awfully big step, especially

169
00:12:08,396 --> 00:12:12,836
Speaker 1: when the colleague was someone of Monte's stature. Finally, Brown

170
00:12:12,916 --> 00:12:15,996
Speaker 1: made up his mind, taking his suspicions to a DIA

171
00:12:16,156 --> 00:12:19,396
Speaker 1: counterintelligence officer named Scott Carmichael.

172
00:12:19,956 --> 00:12:22,436
Speaker 3: He came over and we walked in the neighborhoods around

173
00:12:22,476 --> 00:12:23,796
Speaker 3: there for a while during lunch hour.

174
00:12:24,076 --> 00:12:27,156
Speaker 1: This is Carmichael talking about his first meeting with Reg Brown.

175
00:12:27,356 --> 00:12:29,436
Speaker 3: And I think it was during that lunch hour. He

176
00:12:29,636 --> 00:12:33,196
Speaker 3: hardly even got to tamatas. I mean, most of it

177
00:12:33,236 --> 00:12:35,756
Speaker 3: was listening to him saying, oh God, he's bringing his hands,

178
00:12:35,796 --> 00:12:37,956
Speaker 3: saying I don't want to do the wrong thing. Yea, yeah, yeah.

179
00:12:38,436 --> 00:12:43,116
Speaker 1: Slowly Carmichael drew him out. Brown had more evidence. He

180
00:12:43,156 --> 00:12:45,716
Speaker 1: had written a report in the late nineteen eighties detailing

181
00:12:45,756 --> 00:12:49,236
Speaker 1: the involvement of senior Cuban officials and international drug smuggling.

182
00:12:50,036 --> 00:12:55,516
Speaker 3: He identified specific Cuban senior Cuban officers, including I think

183
00:12:55,556 --> 00:12:59,716
Speaker 3: a general office and some lesser officers who were dirking involved,

184
00:12:59,756 --> 00:13:04,636
Speaker 3: and then provided the specifics I mean whites, the dates,

185
00:13:04,636 --> 00:13:08,116
Speaker 3: the time, to places who did walked home a whole enchilada.

186
00:13:09,196 --> 00:13:11,756
Speaker 1: In a few days before Brown's report was released, the

187
00:13:11,796 --> 00:13:16,236
Speaker 1: Cubans rounded up everyone had mentioned in his investigation, executed

188
00:13:16,276 --> 00:13:18,796
Speaker 1: a number of them, and issued a public denial.

189
00:13:19,156 --> 00:13:23,356
Speaker 3: I wrote one for the fuck there was a league.

190
00:13:24,516 --> 00:13:29,876
Speaker 1: It made REDG. Brown paranoid. In nineteen ninety four, two

191
00:13:29,996 --> 00:13:33,876
Speaker 1: Cuban intelligence officers had defected and told a similar story.

192
00:13:34,516 --> 00:13:38,596
Speaker 1: The Cubans had someone high inside American intelligence. So what

193
00:13:38,676 --> 00:13:41,996
Speaker 1: was he to think? Brown said to Carmichael, didn't he

194
00:13:42,076 --> 00:13:46,716
Speaker 1: have reason to be suspicious? Then he told Carmichael the

195
00:13:46,756 --> 00:13:50,476
Speaker 1: other thing that had happened During the Ermanos al Riscote crisis.

196
00:13:51,356 --> 00:13:54,236
Speaker 1: Montees worked at the DIA's office on Bowling Air Force

197
00:13:54,276 --> 00:13:58,596
Speaker 1: Base in the Anacostia section of Washington, d C. When

198
00:13:58,596 --> 00:14:01,716
Speaker 1: the planes were shot down, she was called into the Pentagon.

199
00:14:02,076 --> 00:14:04,796
Speaker 1: If you were one of the government's leading Cuba experts,

200
00:14:05,076 --> 00:14:08,556
Speaker 1: you were needed at the scene. The shootdown happened on

201
00:14:08,596 --> 00:14:13,396
Speaker 1: a Saturday. The following evening, Brown happened to telephone asking

202
00:14:13,436 --> 00:14:17,676
Speaker 1: for Montes. He sent some woman answered the phone and

203
00:14:17,716 --> 00:14:21,956
Speaker 1: told him that Anna had left. Carmichael says, earlier in

204
00:14:21,996 --> 00:14:25,276
Speaker 1: the day, Montes had gotten a phone call and afterwards

205
00:14:25,356 --> 00:14:29,316
Speaker 1: she'd been agitated. Then she told everyone in the situation

206
00:14:29,436 --> 00:14:32,276
Speaker 1: room that she was tired, that there was nothing going on,

207
00:14:32,356 --> 00:14:34,356
Speaker 1: that she was going home, and Reg.

208
00:14:34,396 --> 00:14:37,356
Speaker 3: Was just absolutely incredulous. This is just so counter to

209
00:14:37,436 --> 00:14:41,996
Speaker 3: our culture that he couldn't even leave it. Everybody understands

210
00:14:42,476 --> 00:14:46,236
Speaker 3: that when a crisis occurs, you're called in because you

211
00:14:46,316 --> 00:14:50,116
Speaker 3: have some expertise you can add add to the decision

212
00:14:50,196 --> 00:14:51,156
Speaker 3: making processes.

213
00:14:51,556 --> 00:14:57,436
Speaker 1: Here, Scott Carmichael starts thumping to make his point, Pentagon, you.

214
00:14:57,396 --> 00:15:01,876
Speaker 3: Were available until you were dismissed. That's it's just understood.

215
00:15:02,476 --> 00:15:05,076
Speaker 3: You know, at somebody at that level calls you in

216
00:15:05,156 --> 00:15:07,156
Speaker 3: because all of a sudden, with North Koreans and launce

217
00:15:07,196 --> 00:15:10,716
Speaker 3: A Michelan San Francisco, you don't just decide to leave

218
00:15:10,756 --> 00:15:14,956
Speaker 3: when you get tired and armored. Everybody understands, and yet

219
00:15:14,996 --> 00:15:18,156
Speaker 3: she did that and was just.

220
00:15:19,796 --> 00:15:24,396
Speaker 1: In Reg Brown's thinking, if Montez really worked for the Cubans,

221
00:15:24,756 --> 00:15:27,236
Speaker 1: they would have been desperate to hear from her. They

222
00:15:27,236 --> 00:15:29,796
Speaker 1: would want to know what was happening in the situation room.

223
00:15:30,596 --> 00:15:32,596
Speaker 1: Did she have a meeting that night with her handler.

224
00:15:33,356 --> 00:15:35,316
Speaker 1: It was all a bit far fetched, which is why

225
00:15:35,356 --> 00:15:38,956
Speaker 1: Brown was so conflicted. But there were Cuban spies. He

226
00:15:39,036 --> 00:15:42,356
Speaker 1: knew that. And here was this woman taking a personal

227
00:15:42,476 --> 00:15:44,876
Speaker 1: phone call and heading out the door in the middle

228
00:15:44,876 --> 00:15:47,876
Speaker 1: of what was, for a Cuba specialist, just about the

229
00:15:47,916 --> 00:15:51,516
Speaker 1: biggest crisis in a generation. And on top of that,

230
00:15:52,476 --> 00:15:55,076
Speaker 1: she's the one who wo had arrange the awfully convenient

231
00:15:55,156 --> 00:15:59,276
Speaker 1: Admiral Carrol briefing. Brown told Carmichael that the Cubans had

232
00:15:59,276 --> 00:16:01,836
Speaker 1: wanted to shoot down one of the Harmanos el Riscotte

233
00:16:01,916 --> 00:16:05,316
Speaker 1: planes for years, but they hadn't because they knew what

234
00:16:05,356 --> 00:16:08,756
Speaker 1: a provocation that would be. It might serve as the excuse,

235
00:16:08,876 --> 00:16:12,196
Speaker 1: you know, States needed to depose Fidel Castro or launch

236
00:16:12,236 --> 00:16:16,636
Speaker 1: an invasion. To the Cubans, it wasn't worth it unless,

237
00:16:16,876 --> 00:16:19,396
Speaker 1: that is, they could figure out some way to turn

238
00:16:19,476 --> 00:16:21,156
Speaker 1: public opinion in their favor.

239
00:16:21,876 --> 00:16:24,516
Speaker 3: And so he looked at that one. Holy shit, I'm

240
00:16:24,516 --> 00:16:28,076
Speaker 3: looking at a kitting color and Dollan's influence operation to

241
00:16:28,396 --> 00:16:31,316
Speaker 3: spin a story, and I asked the one who led

242
00:16:31,356 --> 00:16:34,996
Speaker 3: the effort to me with the adil, Carol, what the

243
00:16:34,996 --> 00:16:36,156
Speaker 3: hell is that all about?

244
00:16:37,796 --> 00:16:43,796
Speaker 1: Months past? Brown persisted. Finally, Scott Carmichael pulled Montez file.

245
00:16:44,916 --> 00:16:48,396
Speaker 1: She had passed her most recent polograph with flying colors.

246
00:16:48,916 --> 00:16:52,396
Speaker 1: She didn't have a secret drinking problem or unexplained sums

247
00:16:52,436 --> 00:16:55,396
Speaker 1: in her bank account. She had no red flags.

248
00:16:55,916 --> 00:16:58,316
Speaker 3: After I had reviewed the security file of a personnel

249
00:16:58,356 --> 00:17:03,076
Speaker 3: file on her, I thought, reg Way off here, this

250
00:17:03,116 --> 00:17:06,276
Speaker 3: woman is like, she's going to be the next director

251
00:17:06,316 --> 00:17:10,396
Speaker 3: of Intelligence from DN. He's just fabulous.

252
00:17:10,956 --> 00:17:13,476
Speaker 1: He knew that in order to justify an investigation on

253
00:17:13,516 --> 00:17:17,796
Speaker 1: the basis of speculation, he had to be meticulous. Reg Brown,

254
00:17:17,836 --> 00:17:21,796
Speaker 1: he said, was coming apart. He had to satisfy Brown's

255
00:17:21,796 --> 00:17:24,836
Speaker 1: suspicions one way or another, as he put it, to

256
00:17:24,956 --> 00:17:27,596
Speaker 1: document the living shit out of everything. Because if word

257
00:17:27,636 --> 00:17:30,436
Speaker 1: got out that Montes was under suspicion, I knew I

258
00:17:30,476 --> 00:17:36,916
Speaker 1: was going to be facing a shit storm. Carmichael called

259
00:17:36,996 --> 00:17:39,676
Speaker 1: monta is in. They met in a conference room at

260
00:17:39,716 --> 00:17:44,236
Speaker 1: Bowling Air Force Base. She was attractive, intelligent, slender, with

261
00:17:44,396 --> 00:17:49,036
Speaker 1: short hair and sharp, almost severe features. Carmichael thought to himself,

262
00:17:49,636 --> 00:17:51,316
Speaker 1: this woman is impressive.

263
00:17:52,116 --> 00:17:54,116
Speaker 3: She sat down. She was sitting like almost texting to

264
00:17:54,156 --> 00:17:55,036
Speaker 3: me about that for away.

265
00:17:55,476 --> 00:17:58,356
Speaker 1: Here Carmichael holds his hands three feet apart.

266
00:17:59,116 --> 00:18:02,276
Speaker 3: Same side of the table, kind of thing, and she

267
00:18:02,396 --> 00:18:04,956
Speaker 3: crossed her legs. I don't think that she did it

268
00:18:04,956 --> 00:18:06,956
Speaker 3: on purpose. I don't think she didn't think she was

269
00:18:07,036 --> 00:18:12,156
Speaker 3: just getting comfortable. Happen to be lame man. She couldn't

270
00:18:12,196 --> 00:18:16,956
Speaker 3: know that. I mean, I like it. I know that

271
00:18:17,036 --> 00:18:17,836
Speaker 3: I glanced down.

272
00:18:18,396 --> 00:18:20,916
Speaker 1: He asked her about the Admiral Carroll meeting. She had

273
00:18:20,916 --> 00:18:23,876
Speaker 1: an answer. It wasn't her idea at all. The son

274
00:18:23,956 --> 00:18:27,196
Speaker 1: of someone she knew at DIA had accompanied Carol to Cuba,

275
00:18:27,276 --> 00:18:29,316
Speaker 1: and she'd gotten a call afterward.

276
00:18:29,236 --> 00:18:32,156
Speaker 3: I know his dad. His dad called me and he said, hey,

277
00:18:32,236 --> 00:18:34,476
Speaker 3: you know, if you want the latest scoop on, you

278
00:18:34,476 --> 00:18:36,556
Speaker 3: should go see the Admiral Carroll. And so I just

279
00:18:36,836 --> 00:18:39,196
Speaker 3: called up Admiral Carroll and we looked at our schedules

280
00:18:39,196 --> 00:18:41,356
Speaker 3: and decided twenty third of February. It was the most

281
00:18:41,356 --> 00:18:43,036
Speaker 3: convenient date that works for both of us, and that

282
00:18:43,156 --> 00:18:43,476
Speaker 3: was it.

283
00:18:43,876 --> 00:18:46,956
Speaker 1: As it turned out, Carmichael knew the DIA employee she

284
00:18:47,076 --> 00:18:49,556
Speaker 1: was talking about He told her that he was going

285
00:18:49,596 --> 00:18:52,556
Speaker 1: to call him up and corroborate her story, and she said,

286
00:18:52,796 --> 00:18:56,316
Speaker 1: please do So what happened with the phone call in

287
00:18:56,396 --> 00:18:59,796
Speaker 1: the situation room, he asked her. She said she didn't

288
00:18:59,836 --> 00:19:02,876
Speaker 1: remember getting a phone call, and to Carmichael, it seemed

289
00:19:02,876 --> 00:19:05,996
Speaker 1: as though she was being honest. It had been a crazy,

290
00:19:06,076 --> 00:19:09,956
Speaker 1: hectic day nine months before. What about leaving early?

291
00:19:10,356 --> 00:19:12,836
Speaker 3: She said, well, yeah, I did leave. Okay, So right

292
00:19:12,876 --> 00:19:16,156
Speaker 3: away she's admitting to that, and she's not denying stuff

293
00:19:16,556 --> 00:19:19,516
Speaker 3: which might be a little suspicious. She said, yeah, I

294
00:19:19,516 --> 00:19:21,836
Speaker 3: did leave early today that day, and she says, you know,

295
00:19:21,916 --> 00:19:24,676
Speaker 3: it was on a Sunday. The cafeterias were closed. I'm

296
00:19:24,676 --> 00:19:26,716
Speaker 3: a very picky eater. I have analogies, so I don't

297
00:19:26,756 --> 00:19:28,996
Speaker 3: eat stuff out of any machines. I got there around

298
00:19:28,996 --> 00:19:31,876
Speaker 3: six o'clock in the morning, about again, case black at night,

299
00:19:31,956 --> 00:19:34,796
Speaker 3: I'm starving to death. Nothing was going on. They didn't

300
00:19:34,836 --> 00:19:36,796
Speaker 3: really need me, so I just decaided I was just

301
00:19:36,796 --> 00:19:38,716
Speaker 3: gonna get out of there, go home and eat something.

302
00:19:40,396 --> 00:19:43,116
Speaker 3: And that rang true to me. I did.

303
00:19:43,756 --> 00:19:47,276
Speaker 1: After the interview, Carmichael set out to double check her answers.

304
00:19:47,996 --> 00:19:51,196
Speaker 1: The date of the briefing really did seem like a coincidence.

305
00:19:51,756 --> 00:19:54,716
Speaker 1: Her friend's son had gone to Cuba with Carol.

306
00:19:54,836 --> 00:19:57,436
Speaker 3: And I learned that, Yeah, she does a aalogy. She's

307
00:19:57,516 --> 00:19:59,716
Speaker 3: very particular about what she eats. I thought, she's there

308
00:19:59,756 --> 00:20:02,396
Speaker 3: in the Pentagon on Sunday. I've been there. The cafterias

309
00:20:02,396 --> 00:20:05,756
Speaker 3: aren't open. She went all day long without eating. She

310
00:20:05,996 --> 00:20:09,116
Speaker 3: went home. I said, well, it kind of makes sense.

311
00:20:09,796 --> 00:20:14,836
Speaker 1: So Carmichael went back to reg Brown and told him

312
00:20:14,876 --> 00:20:18,596
Speaker 1: not to worry. He turned his attention to other matters.

313
00:20:19,116 --> 00:20:22,916
Speaker 1: Anna Montes went back to her office. All was forgotten

314
00:20:22,996 --> 00:20:26,356
Speaker 1: and forgiven until one day in two thousand and one,

315
00:20:26,876 --> 00:20:30,236
Speaker 1: five years later, when it was discovered that every night

316
00:20:30,756 --> 00:20:34,156
Speaker 1: Montes had gone home typed up from memory all of

317
00:20:34,156 --> 00:20:36,156
Speaker 1: the facts and insights she had learned that day at

318
00:20:36,156 --> 00:20:40,916
Speaker 1: work and sent it to her handlers in Havana. From

319
00:20:41,036 --> 00:20:45,116
Speaker 1: the day she joined the Dia, Montes had been a

320
00:20:45,156 --> 00:20:50,636
Speaker 1: Cuban spy. In the classic spy novel The Secret Agent

321
00:20:50,876 --> 00:20:54,476
Speaker 1: is Slippery and Devious were hoodwinked by the brilliance of

322
00:20:54,476 --> 00:20:58,476
Speaker 1: the enemy. That was the way many Cia insiders explained

323
00:20:58,476 --> 00:21:03,356
Speaker 1: the way Florentino as Piaga's revelations. Castro is a genius.

324
00:21:03,756 --> 00:21:08,196
Speaker 1: The agents were brilliant actors in truth, however, the most

325
00:21:08,276 --> 00:21:13,196
Speaker 1: dangerous spies are rarely diabolical. Aldrich Ames, maybe the most

326
00:21:13,276 --> 00:21:17,436
Speaker 1: damaging trader in American history, had mediocre performance reviews, a

327
00:21:17,516 --> 00:21:20,396
Speaker 1: drinking problem, and didn't even try to hide all the

328
00:21:20,436 --> 00:21:22,756
Speaker 1: money he was getting from the Soviet Union for his spying.

329
00:21:24,516 --> 00:21:28,836
Speaker 1: Anna Montes was scarcely any better. Right before she was arrested,

330
00:21:29,036 --> 00:21:31,516
Speaker 1: the DIA found the codes she used to send her

331
00:21:31,556 --> 00:21:35,836
Speaker 1: dispatches to Havana. Where did they find those codes? In

332
00:21:35,876 --> 00:21:39,236
Speaker 1: her purse and in her apartment? She had a short

333
00:21:39,316 --> 00:21:43,676
Speaker 1: wave radio in a shoe box in her closet. Brian Mattel,

334
00:21:43,996 --> 00:21:48,156
Speaker 1: the CIA Cuba specialist who witnessed the Espiaga disaster, knew

335
00:21:48,196 --> 00:21:50,796
Speaker 1: mont as well. He used to work as something called

336
00:21:50,796 --> 00:21:53,556
Speaker 1: a National Intelligence Officer NIO.

337
00:21:54,276 --> 00:21:56,196
Speaker 4: She used to sit across the table from me at

338
00:21:56,236 --> 00:21:59,836
Speaker 4: meetings that I convened when I was INIO. You know,

339
00:21:59,876 --> 00:22:02,796
Speaker 4: I would try to engage her and she would always

340
00:22:02,796 --> 00:22:06,396
Speaker 4: give me these strange reactions when I would try to

341
00:22:06,436 --> 00:22:08,676
Speaker 4: pin her down at some of these meetings that I convened,

342
00:22:09,196 --> 00:22:11,156
Speaker 4: try to pen her down on you know, what do

343
00:22:11,156 --> 00:22:13,116
Speaker 4: you think is infidel what do you think Fidell's motives

344
00:22:13,116 --> 00:22:16,436
Speaker 4: are about this? You know she would fumble, you know,

345
00:22:16,556 --> 00:22:19,636
Speaker 4: she in a retrospect and retrospect, you know, the deer

346
00:22:19,676 --> 00:22:23,996
Speaker 4: with the headlights in his eyes, she she blocked. You know,

347
00:22:24,036 --> 00:22:26,236
Speaker 4: she would even you know, even physically, she would show

348
00:22:26,236 --> 00:22:28,556
Speaker 4: some you know, some kind of reactions that that caused

349
00:22:28,596 --> 00:22:31,356
Speaker 4: me to think, Oh, she is nervous because she's just

350
00:22:31,516 --> 00:22:33,796
Speaker 4: such a terrible analyst. She doesn't know what to say.

351
00:22:34,916 --> 00:22:38,436
Speaker 1: One year later, Lttel says, Montez was accepted into the

352
00:22:38,476 --> 00:22:43,516
Speaker 1: CIA's Distinguished Analyst Program, a research sabbatical available to intelligence

353
00:22:43,556 --> 00:22:48,516
Speaker 1: officers from across the government. Where'd she ask to go? Cuba?

354
00:22:48,556 --> 00:22:54,476
Speaker 4: Of course she went to Cuba funded by this program.

355
00:22:54,516 --> 00:22:56,156
Speaker 4: Can you imagine.

356
00:22:58,956 --> 00:23:02,356
Speaker 1: If you were a Cuban spy trying to conceal your intentions,

357
00:23:02,636 --> 00:23:06,876
Speaker 1: would you request a paid sabbatical in Havana. ATel was

358
00:23:06,916 --> 00:23:10,956
Speaker 1: speaking almost twenty years after it happened, but the brazenness

359
00:23:10,956 --> 00:23:12,916
Speaker 1: of her behavior still astounded him.

360
00:23:13,636 --> 00:23:18,676
Speaker 4: She went to Cuba as a CIA distinguished intelligence and analysts.

361
00:23:18,756 --> 00:23:20,756
Speaker 4: Of course, they were delighted to have her, especially on

362
00:23:20,836 --> 00:23:24,036
Speaker 4: our nickel, and I'm sure that they gave her all

363
00:23:24,116 --> 00:23:26,236
Speaker 4: kinds of clandestine tradecraft.

364
00:23:25,876 --> 00:23:27,316
Speaker 3: Training while she was there.

365
00:23:27,556 --> 00:23:30,676
Speaker 4: I suspect camp rude, but I'm pretty sure she met

366
00:23:30,716 --> 00:23:34,756
Speaker 4: with Fidel. Fidell loved to meet with his principal agents.

367
00:23:34,796 --> 00:23:36,796
Speaker 4: He loved to meet with them, to encourage them, to

368
00:23:36,836 --> 00:23:40,156
Speaker 4: congratulate them, to revel in the success that they were

369
00:23:40,156 --> 00:23:42,796
Speaker 4: having together against against the CIA.

370
00:23:43,236 --> 00:23:45,996
Speaker 1: When Montes came back to the Pentagon, she wrote a

371
00:23:46,036 --> 00:23:48,876
Speaker 1: paper in which she didn't even bother to hide her biases.

372
00:23:49,876 --> 00:23:53,756
Speaker 4: There should have been all kinds of red flags raised

373
00:23:53,796 --> 00:23:56,436
Speaker 4: and gongs that went off when her paper was read

374
00:23:56,476 --> 00:23:59,796
Speaker 4: by her supervisors, because she said things about the Cuban

375
00:23:59,836 --> 00:24:03,236
Speaker 4: military that make absolutely no sense except from their point

376
00:24:03,236 --> 00:24:03,636
Speaker 4: of view.

377
00:24:04,436 --> 00:24:08,316
Speaker 1: But did anyone raise those red flags? Hotel says he

378
00:24:08,396 --> 00:24:10,356
Speaker 1: never once suspected she was a spy.

379
00:24:10,796 --> 00:24:13,476
Speaker 4: On the contrary, there were CIA officers of my rank

380
00:24:14,156 --> 00:24:16,036
Speaker 4: or close to my rank who thought she was the

381
00:24:16,036 --> 00:24:22,636
Speaker 4: best Cuban analyst there was. I never trusted her, but

382
00:24:22,756 --> 00:24:25,996
Speaker 4: for the wrong reasons, and that's one of my great regrets.

383
00:24:28,076 --> 00:24:31,076
Speaker 4: I'm always believed I was convinced that she was a

384
00:24:31,196 --> 00:24:35,796
Speaker 4: terrible analyst on Cuba. Well she was, wasn't she objectively?

385
00:24:35,836 --> 00:24:38,316
Speaker 4: Because she wasn't working for us she was working for.

386
00:24:40,236 --> 00:24:41,996
Speaker 4: But I never connected the dots.

387
00:24:43,556 --> 00:24:46,676
Speaker 1: Nor did anyone else. Anna Montez had a younger brother

388
00:24:46,756 --> 00:24:50,356
Speaker 1: named Tito, who was an FBI agent. He had no idea.

389
00:24:50,996 --> 00:24:54,236
Speaker 1: Montez's sister was also an FBI agent, who in fact,

390
00:24:54,276 --> 00:24:56,596
Speaker 1: played a key role in exposing a ring of Cuban

391
00:24:56,636 --> 00:25:01,236
Speaker 1: spies in Miami. She had no idea. Montes's boyfriend worked

392
00:25:01,276 --> 00:25:04,276
Speaker 1: for the Pentagon as well. His specialty, believe it or not,

393
00:25:04,556 --> 00:25:08,116
Speaker 1: was Latin American intelligence. His job was to go up

394
00:25:08,116 --> 00:25:13,436
Speaker 1: against spies like his girlfriend. He had no idea. When

395
00:25:13,436 --> 00:25:16,396
Speaker 1: Mantes was finally arrested, the chief of her section called

396
00:25:16,396 --> 00:25:19,916
Speaker 1: her coworkers together and told them the news. People started

397
00:25:19,956 --> 00:25:24,676
Speaker 1: crying in disbelief. The DIA had psychologists lined up to

398
00:25:24,676 --> 00:25:30,596
Speaker 1: provide on site counseling services. Her supervisor was devastated. None

399
00:25:30,636 --> 00:25:34,796
Speaker 1: of them had any idea. In her cubicle, she had

400
00:25:34,796 --> 00:25:38,396
Speaker 1: a quotation from Shakespeare's Henry the Fifth taped to her

401
00:25:38,436 --> 00:25:42,356
Speaker 1: wall at eye level for all the world to see.

402
00:25:42,596 --> 00:25:46,556
Speaker 1: The king hath note of all that they intend by

403
00:25:46,676 --> 00:25:52,476
Speaker 1: interception which they dream not of. Or, to put it

404
00:25:52,516 --> 00:25:55,876
Speaker 1: a bit more plainly, the Queen of Cuba takes note

405
00:25:55,956 --> 00:25:59,476
Speaker 1: of all that the US intends by means that all

406
00:25:59,516 --> 00:26:03,516
Speaker 1: around her do not dream of The issue with spies

407
00:26:03,636 --> 00:26:06,956
Speaker 1: is not that there is something brilliant about them. It

408
00:26:06,996 --> 00:26:10,796
Speaker 1: is that there is something wrong with us us. We'll

409
00:26:10,836 --> 00:26:17,956
Speaker 1: be back after this. We're back with more from this

410
00:26:18,116 --> 00:26:22,756
Speaker 1: excerpt of my new book, Talking to Strangers. Over the

411
00:26:22,756 --> 00:26:26,476
Speaker 1: course of his career, the psychologist Tim Levine has conducted

412
00:26:26,796 --> 00:26:31,196
Speaker 1: hundreds of versions of the same simple experiment. He invites

413
00:26:31,196 --> 00:26:34,516
Speaker 1: students to his laboratory and gives them a trivia test.

414
00:26:35,356 --> 00:26:37,916
Speaker 1: What's the highest mountain in Asia? That kind of thing.

415
00:26:38,516 --> 00:26:42,516
Speaker 1: If they answer the questions correctly, they win a cash prize.

416
00:26:43,076 --> 00:26:45,956
Speaker 1: To help them out. They're given a partner, someone they've

417
00:26:45,996 --> 00:26:49,396
Speaker 1: never met before, who is unknown to them, working for Levine.

418
00:26:50,156 --> 00:26:53,796
Speaker 1: There's also an instructor in the room named Rachel. Midway

419
00:26:53,876 --> 00:26:57,396
Speaker 1: through the test, Rachel suddenly gets called away. She leaves

420
00:26:57,396 --> 00:27:05,436
Speaker 1: and goes upstairs. Then the carefully scripted performance begins. The

421
00:27:05,516 --> 00:27:08,876
Speaker 1: partner says, I don't know about you, but I could

422
00:27:08,956 --> 00:27:11,956
Speaker 1: use the money. I think the answers were left right there.

423
00:27:12,316 --> 00:27:15,556
Speaker 1: He points to an envelope lying in plain sight on

424
00:27:15,596 --> 00:27:17,076
Speaker 1: the desk, so it talk.

425
00:27:16,916 --> 00:27:19,156
Speaker 5: To them whether they cheat or not, and then later

426
00:27:19,196 --> 00:27:21,636
Speaker 5: we interview them, asking Digiti.

427
00:27:21,596 --> 00:27:24,956
Speaker 1: This is Tim Levine. He says, in about thirty percent

428
00:27:25,036 --> 00:27:29,596
Speaker 1: of cases, the research subjects do cheat. Levine's theories are

429
00:27:29,676 --> 00:27:33,476
Speaker 1: laid out in his book duped Truth, Default Theory and

430
00:27:33,516 --> 00:27:36,636
Speaker 1: the Social Science of Lying in Deception. If you want

431
00:27:36,636 --> 00:27:39,876
Speaker 1: to understand how deception works, there is no better place

432
00:27:39,916 --> 00:27:43,196
Speaker 1: to start. The number of scholars around the world who

433
00:27:43,276 --> 00:27:47,116
Speaker 1: study human deception is vast. There are more theories about

434
00:27:47,156 --> 00:27:49,956
Speaker 1: why we lie and how to detect those lies than

435
00:27:49,996 --> 00:27:54,236
Speaker 1: there are about the Kennedy assassination. In that crowded field,

436
00:27:54,556 --> 00:27:59,476
Speaker 1: Levine stands out. He has carefully constructed a unified theory

437
00:27:59,516 --> 00:28:02,436
Speaker 1: about deception, and at the core of that theory are

438
00:28:02,476 --> 00:28:05,716
Speaker 1: the insights he gained from that first trivia quiz study.

439
00:28:06,876 --> 00:28:10,396
Speaker 1: I watched videotape of a dozen or so post experiment

440
00:28:10,516 --> 00:28:13,836
Speaker 1: interviews with Levine in his office the University of Alabama

441
00:28:13,916 --> 00:28:17,916
Speaker 1: in Birmingham. Because of privacy regulations, we can't play them

442
00:28:17,996 --> 00:28:20,596
Speaker 1: for you here, but we're going to re enact them.

443
00:28:21,316 --> 00:28:25,956
Speaker 1: Here's the first. The interviewer and the subject, a slightly

444
00:28:26,036 --> 00:28:29,196
Speaker 1: spaced out young man. Let's call him Philip.

445
00:28:29,316 --> 00:28:32,396
Speaker 6: All right, So have you played trivial pursuit games before,

446
00:28:33,596 --> 00:28:36,796
Speaker 6: not very much, but I think I have. Okay, So

447
00:28:36,836 --> 00:28:38,876
Speaker 6: in the current game, did you find the questions difficult?

448
00:28:39,956 --> 00:28:41,436
Speaker 3: Yes? Some were?

449
00:28:42,356 --> 00:28:44,476
Speaker 6: Yes, yes, some were.

450
00:28:44,876 --> 00:28:46,316
Speaker 3: I was like, whoa, what is that?

451
00:28:47,716 --> 00:28:49,396
Speaker 6: If you would scale them on one to ten? If

452
00:28:49,476 --> 00:28:51,556
Speaker 6: one was easy and ten was difficult, where do you

453
00:28:51,556 --> 00:28:52,356
Speaker 6: think you would put them?

454
00:28:53,116 --> 00:28:55,076
Speaker 4: I would put them an eight and an eight.

455
00:28:55,276 --> 00:28:56,396
Speaker 6: Yeah, they're pretty tricky.

456
00:28:57,316 --> 00:28:59,796
Speaker 1: Philip is then told that he and his partner did

457
00:28:59,916 --> 00:29:03,796
Speaker 1: very well in the test. The interviewer asked him why.

458
00:29:04,436 --> 00:29:10,516
Speaker 6: Teamwork, teamwork? Yeah, okay, all right, So now I called

459
00:29:10,596 --> 00:29:12,916
Speaker 6: Rachel out of the room briefly. When she was gone,

460
00:29:13,076 --> 00:29:13,676
Speaker 6: did you cheat?

461
00:29:14,916 --> 00:29:16,436
Speaker 4: I guess no.

462
00:29:17,116 --> 00:29:18,036
Speaker 1: Philip looks away.

463
00:29:18,596 --> 00:29:19,516
Speaker 6: Are you telling the truth?

464
00:29:20,156 --> 00:29:20,516
Speaker 3: Yes?

465
00:29:21,036 --> 00:29:23,996
Speaker 6: Okay. So when I interview your partner and I ask Kurt,

466
00:29:24,076 --> 00:29:25,076
Speaker 6: what is she going to say?

467
00:29:25,476 --> 00:29:28,956
Speaker 1: At this point, there's an uncomfortable silence, as if the

468
00:29:28,956 --> 00:29:32,236
Speaker 1: student is trying to get his story straight, He's obviously

469
00:29:32,276 --> 00:29:37,156
Speaker 1: thinking very hard. Levine said no.

470
00:29:36,236 --> 00:29:40,956
Speaker 6: No, yeah, okay, all right, Well that's all I need

471
00:29:40,956 --> 00:29:41,236
Speaker 6: from you.

472
00:29:42,316 --> 00:29:46,276
Speaker 1: Is Philip telling the truth. Levine has shown the Philip

473
00:29:46,356 --> 00:29:50,316
Speaker 1: videotape to hundreds of people, and nearly every viewer correctly

474
00:29:50,356 --> 00:29:55,276
Speaker 1: pegs Philip as a cheater. As the partner confirmed to Levine,

475
00:29:55,516 --> 00:29:59,236
Speaker 1: Philip looked inside the answer filled envelope the minute Rachel

476
00:29:59,316 --> 00:30:02,676
Speaker 1: left the room. In his exit interview, he lied. And

477
00:30:02,716 --> 00:30:03,596
Speaker 1: it's obvious.

478
00:30:04,196 --> 00:30:04,716
Speaker 3: That's so like.

479
00:30:04,756 --> 00:30:08,516
Speaker 7: Everybody gets a sky right, Yeah, a cheater. He is

480
00:30:08,636 --> 00:30:18,156
Speaker 7: no conviction, right. She can't even keep a straight face, right.

481
00:30:18,756 --> 00:30:22,356
Speaker 1: Philip was easy, But the more tapes we looked at,

482
00:30:22,556 --> 00:30:25,796
Speaker 1: the harder it got. Here's the second case. Let's call

483
00:30:25,876 --> 00:30:30,516
Speaker 1: him Lucas. He was handsome, articulate, confident. Here he is

484
00:30:30,516 --> 00:30:31,636
Speaker 1: talking to the interviewer.

485
00:30:32,396 --> 00:30:34,076
Speaker 6: So I have to ask, when Rachel left the room,

486
00:30:34,116 --> 00:30:34,996
Speaker 6: did I he cheating a card?

487
00:30:35,476 --> 00:30:35,516
Speaker 4: No?

488
00:30:36,716 --> 00:30:37,716
Speaker 6: Are you telling me the truth?

489
00:30:38,076 --> 00:30:38,396
Speaker 3: Yes?

490
00:30:38,556 --> 00:30:38,876
Speaker 4: I am.

491
00:30:39,436 --> 00:30:40,956
Speaker 6: When I interview your partner and I ask her the

492
00:30:40,996 --> 00:30:42,836
Speaker 6: same question, what do you think she's gonna say?

493
00:30:43,236 --> 00:30:45,236
Speaker 3: Same thing? Yeah?

494
00:30:46,156 --> 00:30:50,116
Speaker 1: Yeah, he is good. It's everybody believes him, Levine said.

495
00:30:50,436 --> 00:30:54,676
Speaker 1: I believed him. Lucas was lying. Levine and I spent

496
00:30:54,716 --> 00:30:57,756
Speaker 1: the better part of the morning watching his trivia quiz videotapes.

497
00:30:58,316 --> 00:31:00,756
Speaker 1: By the end, I was ready to throw up my hands.

498
00:31:01,156 --> 00:31:04,076
Speaker 1: I had no idea what to make of anyone. The

499
00:31:04,116 --> 00:31:06,716
Speaker 1: point of Levine's research was to try and answer one

500
00:31:06,756 --> 00:31:09,996
Speaker 1: of the biggest puzzles in human psychology, Why are we

501
00:31:10,076 --> 00:31:13,676
Speaker 1: so bad at detecting lies? You'd think would be good

502
00:31:13,716 --> 00:31:16,796
Speaker 1: at it. Logic says, it would be very useful for

503
00:31:16,916 --> 00:31:20,876
Speaker 1: human beings to know when they're being deceived. Evolution over

504
00:31:20,956 --> 00:31:24,356
Speaker 1: many millions of years should have favored people with the

505
00:31:24,436 --> 00:31:27,236
Speaker 1: ability to pick up on the subtle signs of deception,

506
00:31:27,636 --> 00:31:32,036
Speaker 1: but it hasn't. In one iteration of his experiment, Levine

507
00:31:32,076 --> 00:31:35,636
Speaker 1: divided his tapes in half, twenty two liars and twenty

508
00:31:35,636 --> 00:31:39,876
Speaker 1: two truth tellers. On average, the people watching the videos

509
00:31:39,956 --> 00:31:43,516
Speaker 1: correctly identified the liars fifty six percent of the time.

510
00:31:44,436 --> 00:31:47,716
Speaker 1: Other psychologists have tried similar versions of the same experiment,

511
00:31:48,236 --> 00:31:52,596
Speaker 1: The average for all of them fifty four percent. Just

512
00:31:52,796 --> 00:31:58,076
Speaker 1: About everyone is terrible, police officers, judges, therapists, even CIA

513
00:31:58,196 --> 00:32:05,156
Speaker 1: officers running big spy networks. Every one why Tim Levine's

514
00:32:05,156 --> 00:32:07,876
Speaker 1: answer is called truth default theory.

515
00:32:07,836 --> 00:32:08,436
Speaker 3: Or t d T.

516
00:32:09,476 --> 00:32:11,796
Speaker 1: Levine's theory started with an insight that came from one

517
00:32:11,796 --> 00:32:15,716
Speaker 1: of his graduate students. He's soon park. It was right

518
00:32:15,796 --> 00:32:18,396
Speaker 1: at the beginning of Levine's research, when he was as

519
00:32:18,396 --> 00:32:21,036
Speaker 1: baffled as the rest of his profession about why we

520
00:32:21,076 --> 00:32:23,556
Speaker 1: are all so bad at something that, by rights, we

521
00:32:23,596 --> 00:32:24,476
Speaker 1: should be good at.

522
00:32:24,676 --> 00:32:31,276
Speaker 5: Her big insight, Well, first one was in the fifty

523
00:32:31,316 --> 00:32:36,716
Speaker 5: four percent deception accuracy thing that's averaging across trust and lies,

524
00:32:37,556 --> 00:32:40,876
Speaker 5: and you come to a very different understanding if you

525
00:32:40,956 --> 00:32:44,116
Speaker 5: break out truth how much people are right on truth

526
00:32:45,356 --> 00:32:47,236
Speaker 5: and how much people are right on lies.

527
00:32:48,316 --> 00:32:51,276
Speaker 1: What he means is this, If I tell you that

528
00:32:51,356 --> 00:32:55,196
Speaker 1: your accuracy rate on Levine's videos is right around fifty percent,

529
00:32:55,676 --> 00:32:58,116
Speaker 1: the natural assumption is to think that you are just

530
00:32:58,236 --> 00:33:01,396
Speaker 1: randomly guessing, that you have no idea what you're doing.

531
00:33:02,116 --> 00:33:06,796
Speaker 1: But Park's observation was that's not true. We're much better

532
00:33:06,836 --> 00:33:09,716
Speaker 1: than chance at correctly identifying the student who are telling

533
00:33:09,796 --> 00:33:13,636
Speaker 1: the truth, but we're much worse than chance at correctly

534
00:33:13,676 --> 00:33:17,356
Speaker 1: identifying the students who are lying. We go through all

535
00:33:17,356 --> 00:33:20,236
Speaker 1: those videos and we guess true true, true, which means

536
00:33:20,236 --> 00:33:22,996
Speaker 1: we get most of the truthful interviews right and most

537
00:33:22,996 --> 00:33:26,236
Speaker 1: of the liars wrong. We have a default to truth.

538
00:33:26,956 --> 00:33:29,796
Speaker 1: Our operating assumption is that the people that we're dealing

539
00:33:29,836 --> 00:33:34,356
Speaker 1: with are honest. Levine says his own experiment is an

540
00:33:34,436 --> 00:33:38,676
Speaker 1: almost perfect illustration of this phenomenon. He invites people to

541
00:33:38,716 --> 00:33:42,436
Speaker 1: play a trivia game for money. Suddenly the instructor is

542
00:33:42,476 --> 00:33:44,876
Speaker 1: called out of the room and she just happens to

543
00:33:44,956 --> 00:33:47,156
Speaker 1: leave the answers to the test in plain view on

544
00:33:47,196 --> 00:33:51,636
Speaker 1: her desk. Levine says that logically the subject should roll

545
00:33:51,676 --> 00:33:55,236
Speaker 1: their eyes at this point. They're college students, they're not stupid.

546
00:33:55,796 --> 00:33:59,116
Speaker 1: They've signed up for a psychological experiment. They're given a

547
00:33:59,196 --> 00:34:02,116
Speaker 1: partner whom they've never met, who is egging them on

548
00:34:02,156 --> 00:34:04,596
Speaker 1: to cheat. You would think that they might be even

549
00:34:04,636 --> 00:34:07,716
Speaker 1: a little suspicious that things are not as they seem.

550
00:34:08,196 --> 00:34:13,836
Speaker 5: But no, so they catch that they leaving the room

551
00:34:14,356 --> 00:34:16,636
Speaker 5: might be a set up. I think they almost never

552
00:34:16,716 --> 00:34:18,276
Speaker 5: catch as that their partners.

553
00:34:18,676 --> 00:34:23,876
Speaker 7: A suite I see, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

554
00:34:23,956 --> 00:34:27,196
Speaker 3: So it's weird. It's interesting what they suspect. So they

555
00:34:27,276 --> 00:34:28,756
Speaker 3: think that there might be hidden gaps.

556
00:34:29,916 --> 00:34:31,556
Speaker 5: Yeah right, they think it might be a set up,

557
00:34:31,596 --> 00:34:33,036
Speaker 5: because insurements are set.

558
00:34:32,916 --> 00:34:36,916
Speaker 1: Ups, right, But this nice person they're talking and chatting to,

559
00:34:37,636 --> 00:34:41,716
Speaker 1: they never question it. To snap out of truth default

560
00:34:41,756 --> 00:34:46,436
Speaker 1: mode requires what Levine calls a trigger. A trigger is

561
00:34:46,476 --> 00:34:49,516
Speaker 1: not the same as a suspicion or the first sliver

562
00:34:49,596 --> 00:34:53,356
Speaker 1: of doubt. We fall out of truth default mode only

563
00:34:53,396 --> 00:34:58,396
Speaker 1: when the case against our initial assumption becomes definitive. We

564
00:34:58,476 --> 00:35:02,196
Speaker 1: do not behave. In other words, like sober minded scientists

565
00:35:02,396 --> 00:35:05,596
Speaker 1: slowly gathering evidence of the truth or falsity of something

566
00:35:05,916 --> 00:35:10,156
Speaker 1: before reaching a conclusion, we do the opposite. We start

567
00:35:10,236 --> 00:35:14,196
Speaker 1: by believing, and we stop believing only when our doubts

568
00:35:14,236 --> 00:35:17,196
Speaker 1: and misgivings rise to the point where we could no

569
00:35:17,276 --> 00:35:21,636
Speaker 1: longer explain them away. This proposition sounds at first that

570
00:35:21,756 --> 00:35:24,596
Speaker 1: the kind of hair splitting that social scientists loved to

571
00:35:24,676 --> 00:35:29,476
Speaker 1: engage in. It is not. It is a profound point

572
00:35:29,636 --> 00:35:34,476
Speaker 1: that explains a lot of otherwise puzzling behavior. Consider, for example,

573
00:35:34,676 --> 00:35:37,436
Speaker 1: one of the most famous findings in all of psychology,

574
00:35:37,956 --> 00:35:43,556
Speaker 1: Stanley Milgram's Obedience Experiment. In nineteen sixty one, Milgram recruited

575
00:35:43,636 --> 00:35:46,356
Speaker 1: volunteers from New Haven to take part in what he

576
00:35:46,476 --> 00:35:51,036
Speaker 1: said was a memory experiment. Each volunteer was met by

577
00:35:51,036 --> 00:35:55,236
Speaker 1: a somber, imposing young man named John Williams, who explained

578
00:35:55,236 --> 00:35:56,916
Speaker 1: that they were going to play the role of teacher

579
00:35:57,196 --> 00:36:02,556
Speaker 1: in the experiment. Williams introduced them to another volunteer, a pleasant,

580
00:36:02,636 --> 00:36:06,636
Speaker 1: middle aged man named mister Wallace. Mister Wallace, they were told,

581
00:36:06,956 --> 00:36:10,076
Speaker 1: was to be the learner. He was in an adjoining

582
00:36:10,156 --> 00:36:14,516
Speaker 1: room wired to a complicated apparatus capable of delivering electrical

583
00:36:14,556 --> 00:36:18,156
Speaker 1: shocks up to four hundred and fifty volts. If you're

584
00:36:18,196 --> 00:36:20,836
Speaker 1: curious about what four hundred and fifty volts feels like,

585
00:36:21,396 --> 00:36:23,756
Speaker 1: it's just shy of the amount of electrical shock that

586
00:36:23,876 --> 00:36:28,236
Speaker 1: leaves tissue damage. The teacher volunteer was instructed to give

587
00:36:28,276 --> 00:36:31,396
Speaker 1: the learner a series of memory tasks, and each time

588
00:36:31,436 --> 00:36:34,556
Speaker 1: the learner failed, the volunteer was to punish him with

589
00:36:34,636 --> 00:36:37,876
Speaker 1: an ever greater electrical shock in order to see whether

590
00:36:37,916 --> 00:36:42,396
Speaker 1: the threat of punishment affected someone's ability to perform memory tasks.

591
00:36:43,156 --> 00:36:47,516
Speaker 1: As the shocks escalated, Wallace would cry out in pain,

592
00:36:48,156 --> 00:36:53,196
Speaker 1: and ultimately he started hammering on the walls. But if

593
00:36:53,236 --> 00:36:58,116
Speaker 1: the teacher waivered, the imposing instructor would urge them on,

594
00:36:59,836 --> 00:37:04,556
Speaker 1: please continue. The experiment requires that you continue. It is

595
00:37:04,596 --> 00:37:08,596
Speaker 1: absolutely essential that you continue. You have no other choice.

596
00:37:09,116 --> 00:37:12,636
Speaker 1: It must go on. The reason the Milgrim experiment is

597
00:37:12,676 --> 00:37:16,196
Speaker 1: so famous is that virtually all of the volunteers complied.

598
00:37:17,116 --> 00:37:21,076
Speaker 1: Sixty five percent ended up administering the maximum dose to

599
00:37:21,116 --> 00:37:24,196
Speaker 1: the hapless learner. In the wake of the Second World

600
00:37:24,196 --> 00:37:27,116
Speaker 1: War and the revelations about what German guards had been

601
00:37:27,236 --> 00:37:31,116
Speaker 1: ordered to do in the Nazi concentration camps. Milgram's findings

602
00:37:31,196 --> 00:37:35,276
Speaker 1: caused a sensation, But to Levine, there's a second lesson

603
00:37:35,316 --> 00:37:39,396
Speaker 1: to the experiment. The volunteer shows up and meets the

604
00:37:39,436 --> 00:37:43,236
Speaker 1: imposing young John Williams. He was actually a local high

605
00:37:43,236 --> 00:37:48,556
Speaker 1: school biology teacher, chosen, in Milgram's words, because he was technical,

606
00:37:48,636 --> 00:37:51,636
Speaker 1: looking and dry, the type you would later see on

607
00:37:51,716 --> 00:37:56,156
Speaker 1: television in connection with the Space Program. Everything william said

608
00:37:56,236 --> 00:37:59,636
Speaker 1: during the experiment had been memorized from a script written

609
00:37:59,716 --> 00:38:03,916
Speaker 1: by Milgram himself. Mister Wallace was in fact a man

610
00:38:03,996 --> 00:38:07,596
Speaker 1: named Jim McDonough. He worked for the railroad. Molgram liked

611
00:38:07,676 --> 00:38:10,476
Speaker 1: him for the part of victim because he was mild

612
00:38:10,636 --> 00:38:15,076
Speaker 1: and submissive. His cries of agony were taped and played

613
00:38:15,116 --> 00:38:20,076
Speaker 1: over a loudspeaker. The experiment was a little amateur theatrical production,

614
00:38:20,756 --> 00:38:24,996
Speaker 1: and the word amateur here is crucial. The Milgrim experiment

615
00:38:25,316 --> 00:38:29,116
Speaker 1: was not produced for a Broadway stage. Mister Wallace, by

616
00:38:29,156 --> 00:38:33,716
Speaker 1: Mogram's own description, was a terrible actor, and everything about

617
00:38:33,756 --> 00:38:37,036
Speaker 1: the experiment was, to put it mildly, more than a

618
00:38:37,076 --> 00:38:41,996
Speaker 1: little far fetched. The electric shock machine didn't actually give shocks.

619
00:38:42,596 --> 00:38:45,396
Speaker 1: More than one participant saw the loud speaker in the

620
00:38:45,436 --> 00:38:49,356
Speaker 1: corner and wondered why Wallace's cries were coming from there,

621
00:38:50,196 --> 00:38:52,396
Speaker 1: not from behind the door to the room where Wallace

622
00:38:52,476 --> 00:38:55,996
Speaker 1: was strapped in, and if the purpose of the experiment

623
00:38:56,116 --> 00:39:00,236
Speaker 1: was to measure learning wyner, did William spend the entire

624
00:39:00,316 --> 00:39:03,356
Speaker 1: time with the teacher and not behind the door with

625
00:39:03,436 --> 00:39:06,756
Speaker 1: the learner. Didn't that make it obvious that what he

626
00:39:06,836 --> 00:39:10,596
Speaker 1: really wanted to do was observe the pre inflicting the pain,

627
00:39:11,196 --> 00:39:15,116
Speaker 1: not the person receiving the pain. As hoaxes go, the

628
00:39:15,196 --> 00:39:20,636
Speaker 1: Milgram experiment was pretty transparent, and just as with Levine's

629
00:39:20,636 --> 00:39:25,156
Speaker 1: trivia test, people fell for it. They defaulted to truth.

630
00:39:26,596 --> 00:39:29,996
Speaker 1: As one subject wrote to Mogram in a follow up questionnaire,

631
00:39:30,556 --> 00:39:34,316
Speaker 1: I actually checked the death notices in the New Haven

632
00:39:34,436 --> 00:39:37,756
Speaker 1: Register for at least two weeks after the experiment to

633
00:39:37,796 --> 00:39:40,556
Speaker 1: see if I had been involved and a contributing factor

634
00:39:40,676 --> 00:39:43,916
Speaker 1: in the death of the so called learner. I was

635
00:39:44,036 --> 00:39:47,316
Speaker 1: very relieved that his name did not appear another road.

636
00:39:48,276 --> 00:39:51,676
Speaker 1: Believe me, when no response came from mister Wallace with

637
00:39:51,716 --> 00:39:55,396
Speaker 1: the stronger voltage, I really believe the man was probably dead.

638
00:39:56,876 --> 00:40:01,276
Speaker 1: These are adults who were apparently convinced that a prestigious

639
00:40:01,396 --> 00:40:05,916
Speaker 1: institution of higher learning could run a possibly lethal torture

640
00:40:05,956 --> 00:40:10,796
Speaker 1: experiment in one of its basements. The experiment left such

641
00:40:10,836 --> 00:40:13,436
Speaker 1: an effect on me. Another wrote that I spent the

642
00:40:13,556 --> 00:40:16,396
Speaker 1: night in a cold sweat and nightmares because of the

643
00:40:16,396 --> 00:40:18,316
Speaker 1: fear that I might have killed that man in the chair.

644
00:40:19,276 --> 00:40:24,316
Speaker 1: But here's the crucial detail. Milgram's subjects weren't hopelessly gullible.

645
00:40:24,716 --> 00:40:28,876
Speaker 1: They had doubts, lots of doubts. In her fascinating history

646
00:40:28,876 --> 00:40:33,516
Speaker 1: of Milgram's obedience experiments, Behind the Shock Machine, Geina Perry

647
00:40:33,556 --> 00:40:37,396
Speaker 1: interviews a retired too maker named Joe Demo, who was

648
00:40:37,436 --> 00:40:41,516
Speaker 1: one of Milgram's original subjects. I thought this is bizarre,

649
00:40:42,116 --> 00:40:46,636
Speaker 1: Demo told Perry. Demo became convinced that Wallace was faking it.

650
00:40:47,596 --> 00:40:49,916
Speaker 1: But then mister Wallace came out of the locked room

651
00:40:49,956 --> 00:40:52,156
Speaker 1: at the end of the experiment and put on a

652
00:40:52,196 --> 00:40:57,836
Speaker 1: little act. He looked, Demo remembers, haggard and emotional. He

653
00:40:57,916 --> 00:41:00,796
Speaker 1: came in with a handkerchief in his hand, wiping his face.

654
00:41:01,476 --> 00:41:03,276
Speaker 1: He came up to me and he offered his hand

655
00:41:03,356 --> 00:41:05,836
Speaker 1: to shake hands with me, and he said I want

656
00:41:05,876 --> 00:41:08,796
Speaker 1: to thank you for stopping it. When he came in,

657
00:41:08,956 --> 00:41:14,636
Speaker 1: I thought, Wow, maybe it really was true. Demo was

658
00:41:14,756 --> 00:41:17,716
Speaker 1: pretty sure that he was being lied to. But all

659
00:41:17,756 --> 00:41:20,036
Speaker 1: it took was for one of the liars to extend

660
00:41:20,116 --> 00:41:23,836
Speaker 1: the pretense a little longer, look a little upset, and

661
00:41:23,916 --> 00:41:27,956
Speaker 1: mop his brow with a handkerchief, and Demo folded his cards.

662
00:41:29,396 --> 00:41:32,996
Speaker 1: Here are the full statistics from the Milgrim experiment. Fifty

663
00:41:33,036 --> 00:41:36,436
Speaker 1: six point one percent I fully believed the learner was

664
00:41:36,476 --> 00:41:42,036
Speaker 1: getting painful shocks. Twenty four percent, although I had some doubts,

665
00:41:42,796 --> 00:41:47,036
Speaker 1: I believe the learner was probably getting the shocks six

666
00:41:47,076 --> 00:41:50,836
Speaker 1: point one percent. I just wasn't sure whether the learner

667
00:41:50,956 --> 00:41:54,476
Speaker 1: was getting the shocks or not. Eleven point four percent.

668
00:41:55,396 --> 00:41:59,476
Speaker 1: Although I had some doubts, I thought the learner was

669
00:41:59,516 --> 00:42:04,236
Speaker 1: probably not getting the shocks. Two point four percent. I

670
00:42:04,356 --> 00:42:08,636
Speaker 1: was certain the learner was not getting the shocks. Over

671
00:42:09,116 --> 00:42:12,876
Speaker 1: forty percent of the volunteers picked up on something odd,

672
00:42:13,356 --> 00:42:16,796
Speaker 1: something that suggested the experiment was not what it seemed,

673
00:42:17,676 --> 00:42:20,356
Speaker 1: But those doubts just weren't enough to trigger them out

674
00:42:20,356 --> 00:42:25,636
Speaker 1: of truth. Default. That's Levine's point. You believe someone not

675
00:42:25,876 --> 00:42:28,796
Speaker 1: because you have no doubts about them. Belief is not

676
00:42:28,916 --> 00:42:32,876
Speaker 1: the absence of doubt. You believe someone because you don't

677
00:42:32,916 --> 00:42:36,916
Speaker 1: have enough doubts about them. Just think about how many

678
00:42:36,916 --> 00:42:40,756
Speaker 1: times you have criticized someone else in hindsight for their

679
00:42:40,796 --> 00:42:44,516
Speaker 1: failure to spot a liar. You should have known there

680
00:42:44,516 --> 00:42:48,196
Speaker 1: were all kinds of red flags you had doubts. Levine

681
00:42:48,236 --> 00:42:50,996
Speaker 1: would say, that's the wrong way to think about what happened.

682
00:42:51,676 --> 00:42:55,956
Speaker 1: The right question is were there enough red flags to

683
00:42:55,996 --> 00:42:59,596
Speaker 1: push you over the threshold of belief. If there weren't,

684
00:43:00,156 --> 00:43:03,636
Speaker 1: then by defaulting to truth, you were only being human

685
00:43:05,156 --> 00:43:13,116
Speaker 1: more After this, we're back with chapter three of Talking

686
00:43:13,116 --> 00:43:19,236
Speaker 1: to Strangers. Anna Berlin Montes grew up in the affluent

687
00:43:19,316 --> 00:43:24,036
Speaker 1: suburbs of Baltimore. Her father was a psychiatrist. She attended

688
00:43:24,036 --> 00:43:27,596
Speaker 1: the University of Virginia, then received a master's degree in

689
00:43:27,636 --> 00:43:32,436
Speaker 1: foreign affairs from Johns Hopkins University. She was a passionate

690
00:43:32,476 --> 00:43:36,756
Speaker 1: supporter of the Marxist Sandinista government in Nicaragua, which the

691
00:43:36,876 --> 00:43:40,716
Speaker 1: US government was then working to overthrow, and her activism

692
00:43:40,796 --> 00:43:46,236
Speaker 1: attracted the attention of a recruiter for Cuban intelligence. In

693
00:43:46,316 --> 00:43:49,236
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five, she made a secret visit to Havana.

694
00:43:50,316 --> 00:43:53,196
Speaker 1: Her new compatriots encouraged her to apply for work in

695
00:43:53,196 --> 00:43:57,876
Speaker 1: the US intelligence community. That same year, she joined the DIA,

696
00:43:58,276 --> 00:44:02,556
Speaker 1: and from there her assent was swift. Montes arrived at

697
00:44:02,556 --> 00:44:05,396
Speaker 1: her office first thing in the morning, ate lunch at

698
00:44:05,396 --> 00:44:08,756
Speaker 1: her desk, and kept to herself. She lived alone in

699
00:44:08,796 --> 00:44:12,476
Speaker 1: a two bedroom condo in the Cleveland Park neighborhood of Washington.

700
00:44:13,156 --> 00:44:17,716
Speaker 1: She never married. In the course of his investigation, Scott Carmichael,

701
00:44:17,876 --> 00:44:23,436
Speaker 1: the DIA counterintelligence officer, collected every adjective used by Montes's

702
00:44:23,476 --> 00:44:29,756
Speaker 1: co workers to describe her. It is an impressive list, shy, quiet,

703
00:44:29,956 --> 00:44:36,876
Speaker 1: aloof cool, independent, self reliant, standoffish, intelligent, serious, dedicated, focused,

704
00:44:36,876 --> 00:44:45,556
Speaker 1: hard working, sharp, quick, manipulative, venomous, unsociable, ambitious, charming, confident, businesslike,

705
00:44:45,676 --> 00:44:53,156
Speaker 1: no nonsense, assertive, deliberate, calm, mature, unflappable, capable, and competent.

706
00:44:54,756 --> 00:44:57,756
Speaker 1: Anna Montes assumed that the reason for her meeting with

707
00:44:57,836 --> 00:45:01,236
Speaker 1: Carmichael was that he was performing a routine security check.

708
00:45:02,036 --> 00:45:06,436
Speaker 1: All intelligence officers are periodically vetted so that they can

709
00:45:06,476 --> 00:45:10,636
Speaker 1: continue to hold a security clearance. She was presque because.

710
00:45:10,436 --> 00:45:12,916
Speaker 3: When she first came in, she started blowing off, you know,

711
00:45:13,076 --> 00:45:16,076
Speaker 3: by telling me and it was true. She had just

712
00:45:16,156 --> 00:45:18,436
Speaker 3: been named as an acting division chief. She had a

713
00:45:18,476 --> 00:45:20,996
Speaker 3: ton of responsibilities and meetings and things to do, and

714
00:45:21,076 --> 00:45:22,316
Speaker 3: she just didn't have a lot of time.

715
00:45:22,556 --> 00:45:26,276
Speaker 1: Carmichael is a disarmingly boyish man with fair hair and

716
00:45:26,316 --> 00:45:30,316
Speaker 1: a substantial stomach. He looks, by his own estimation, like

717
00:45:30,396 --> 00:45:33,996
Speaker 1: the late comedian and actor Chris Farley. She must have

718
00:45:34,076 --> 00:45:35,876
Speaker 1: thought she could bully him.

719
00:45:35,956 --> 00:45:37,756
Speaker 3: And so I just dealt with the way you normally do.

720
00:45:37,836 --> 00:45:39,396
Speaker 3: The first time, you just kind of ignore it, just

721
00:45:39,436 --> 00:45:41,636
Speaker 3: acknowledge it. I mean, the first thing you use, you acknowledge, say,

722
00:45:41,676 --> 00:45:44,516
Speaker 3: oh I understand, yeah, I heard that. That congratulation's great,

723
00:45:44,676 --> 00:45:46,196
Speaker 3: I understand. You got a living in amount of time.

724
00:45:46,276 --> 00:45:47,676
Speaker 3: And then you just kind of ignore it, because if

725
00:45:47,716 --> 00:45:49,596
Speaker 3: it takes you twelve days, it takes twelve days. You

726
00:45:49,596 --> 00:45:52,476
Speaker 3: don't let him go. But then she hit me with

727
00:45:52,516 --> 00:45:54,756
Speaker 3: it again, and she really me appointed it. I mean,

728
00:45:54,796 --> 00:45:58,116
Speaker 3: I hadn't settled in yet, and she said, oh, but seriously,

729
00:45:58,156 --> 00:45:59,796
Speaker 3: I got to leap by two or something like that

730
00:46:01,196 --> 00:46:03,636
Speaker 3: because I got all these things to do, and I'm like,

731
00:46:04,476 --> 00:46:06,796
Speaker 3: what the fuck? You know? I asked what I'm thinking?

732
00:46:07,436 --> 00:46:09,476
Speaker 3: And so when she did that, I lost I lose

733
00:46:09,516 --> 00:46:12,796
Speaker 3: my temper, but I lost my patience. That's why I

734
00:46:12,836 --> 00:46:15,076
Speaker 3: hit her. Be twenty eyes look on, I have reasons

735
00:46:15,116 --> 00:46:16,956
Speaker 3: to suspect that you might be involved in the car

736
00:46:17,076 --> 00:46:18,996
Speaker 3: and velo and simple as operational. We need to sit

737
00:46:19,036 --> 00:46:19,836
Speaker 3: down and talk about this.

738
00:46:20,876 --> 00:46:23,756
Speaker 1: Montes had been by that point a Cuban spy for

739
00:46:23,836 --> 00:46:27,436
Speaker 1: nearly her entire government career. She had met with her

740
00:46:27,436 --> 00:46:31,916
Speaker 1: handlers at least three hundred times, handing over so many

741
00:46:31,956 --> 00:46:34,396
Speaker 1: secrets that she ranks as one of the most damaging

742
00:46:34,436 --> 00:46:38,676
Speaker 1: spies in US history. She had secretly visited Cuba on

743
00:46:38,756 --> 00:46:42,716
Speaker 1: several occasions. After her arrest, it was discovered that Fidel

744
00:46:42,796 --> 00:46:47,076
Speaker 1: Castro had personally given her a medal. Through all of that,

745
00:46:47,436 --> 00:46:52,116
Speaker 1: there hadn't been even a whiff of suspicion. And suddenly,

746
00:46:52,476 --> 00:46:54,716
Speaker 1: at the start of what she thought was a routine

747
00:46:54,756 --> 00:46:58,996
Speaker 1: background check, a funny looking Chris Farley character was pointing

748
00:46:59,156 --> 00:47:02,116
Speaker 1: the finger at her. She sat there in shock.

749
00:47:02,396 --> 00:47:06,476
Speaker 3: She would just looking at me like I'm sure, looking

750
00:47:06,476 --> 00:47:11,716
Speaker 3: at the headlines, waiting for say, another word, just waiting.

751
00:47:12,076 --> 00:47:14,716
Speaker 1: When Carmichael looked back on that meeting years later, he

752
00:47:14,796 --> 00:47:18,396
Speaker 1: realized that was the first clue he had missed her

753
00:47:18,436 --> 00:47:19,796
Speaker 1: reaction made no sense.

754
00:47:20,796 --> 00:47:23,356
Speaker 3: I just didn't pick up on She never said, what

755
00:47:23,396 --> 00:47:26,516
Speaker 3: are you talking about? Nothing like that. She didn't see

756
00:47:26,516 --> 00:47:33,356
Speaker 3: a freaking word. She just sat down and listening. And

757
00:47:33,476 --> 00:47:38,436
Speaker 3: you know, if i'd been a stute, I picked up

758
00:47:38,436 --> 00:47:46,236
Speaker 3: on that. No denial, no confusion, no anger. Anybody who's

759
00:47:47,116 --> 00:47:50,676
Speaker 3: told the suspective of murder or something the completely and

760
00:47:50,796 --> 00:47:53,116
Speaker 3: it's like, wait a minute, you just accused me of

761
00:47:53,156 --> 00:47:54,836
Speaker 3: so I don't want to know what the fuck this

762
00:47:55,036 --> 00:47:57,356
Speaker 3: is all about. And eventually they'll get in your face,

763
00:47:57,876 --> 00:48:01,476
Speaker 3: you know, they'll really get in your face. I didn't

764
00:48:01,516 --> 00:48:03,676
Speaker 3: do a freaking thing and stept sit there.

765
00:48:03,676 --> 00:48:08,636
Speaker 1: Like Carmichael had doubts right from the beginning, But doubts

766
00:48:08,676 --> 00:48:12,636
Speaker 1: triggered disbelief only when you can't explain them away, and

767
00:48:12,676 --> 00:48:15,956
Speaker 1: he could easily explain them away. She was the Queen

768
00:48:15,996 --> 00:48:18,516
Speaker 1: of Cuba, for goodness sake. How could the Queen of

769
00:48:18,596 --> 00:48:23,156
Speaker 1: Cuba be a spy? Sure, Carmichael told her, I have

770
00:48:23,276 --> 00:48:25,476
Speaker 1: reason to suspect that you might be involved in a

771
00:48:25,556 --> 00:48:30,596
Speaker 1: counterintelligence influence operation, but he later admitted he said that

772
00:48:30,756 --> 00:48:33,516
Speaker 1: only because he wanted her to take the meeting seriously.

773
00:48:34,276 --> 00:48:37,156
Speaker 3: I was anxious to get into it and get to

774
00:48:37,156 --> 00:48:40,796
Speaker 3: the next step. And like I said, I just panted

775
00:48:40,836 --> 00:48:44,236
Speaker 3: myself in the back and I worked. I'd shut her up,

776
00:48:45,556 --> 00:48:48,476
Speaker 3: not to hear anymore of that crap anymore. Now, let's

777
00:48:48,476 --> 00:48:51,436
Speaker 3: get do this, get this done. That's why I missed.

778
00:48:52,436 --> 00:48:55,316
Speaker 1: They talked about the Admiral Carroll briefing. She had a

779
00:48:55,356 --> 00:48:58,836
Speaker 1: good answer. They talked about why she abruptly left the

780
00:48:58,836 --> 00:49:03,196
Speaker 1: Pentagon that day. She had an answer. She was being flirty,

781
00:49:03,476 --> 00:49:06,956
Speaker 1: a little playful. He began to relax. He looked down

782
00:49:06,996 --> 00:49:09,596
Speaker 1: at her legs again, and.

783
00:49:09,556 --> 00:49:14,356
Speaker 3: She's bouncing her toe like that. I don't know if

784
00:49:14,396 --> 00:49:17,276
Speaker 3: it was conscious, but what I do know is that

785
00:49:17,356 --> 00:49:21,356
Speaker 3: catches your eye. And we got more comfortable with one another,

786
00:49:21,956 --> 00:49:25,076
Speaker 3: and she became just a little bit more flirty.

787
00:49:25,356 --> 00:49:27,356
Speaker 1: They talked about the phone call the day the plane

788
00:49:27,436 --> 00:49:30,836
Speaker 1: was shot down. She said she never got a phone call,

789
00:49:31,036 --> 00:49:33,796
Speaker 1: or at least she didn't remember getting one. It should

790
00:49:33,796 --> 00:49:36,276
Speaker 1: have been another red flag. The people who were with

791
00:49:36,316 --> 00:49:39,796
Speaker 1: her that day in the situation room distinctly remembered her

792
00:49:39,836 --> 00:49:42,836
Speaker 1: getting a phone call. But then again, it had been

793
00:49:42,876 --> 00:49:45,796
Speaker 1: a long and stressful day. They'd all been in the

794
00:49:45,836 --> 00:49:49,356
Speaker 1: middle of an international crisis. Maybe they just confused her

795
00:49:49,436 --> 00:49:54,156
Speaker 1: with someone else. There was one other thing, another moment

796
00:49:54,196 --> 00:49:57,876
Speaker 1: when Carmichael saw something in her reaction that made him wonder.

797
00:49:58,796 --> 00:50:01,396
Speaker 1: Near the end of the interview, he asked Montez a

798
00:50:01,396 --> 00:50:03,996
Speaker 1: series of questions about what happened after she left the

799
00:50:04,036 --> 00:50:08,756
Speaker 1: Pentagon that day. It was a standard investigative procedure. He

800
00:50:08,916 --> 00:50:12,276
Speaker 1: just wanted as complete a picture as possible of her

801
00:50:12,316 --> 00:50:16,156
Speaker 1: movements that evening. He asked her what she did after work.

802
00:50:16,836 --> 00:50:20,356
Speaker 1: She said she drove home. He asked her where she parked.

803
00:50:20,676 --> 00:50:23,516
Speaker 1: She said, in the lot across the street. He asked

804
00:50:23,516 --> 00:50:26,156
Speaker 1: her if she saw anyone else as she was parking.

805
00:50:26,436 --> 00:50:29,356
Speaker 1: Did she say hello to anyone? She said no.

806
00:50:29,836 --> 00:50:32,196
Speaker 3: I said, okay, well, so what'd you do? You can

807
00:50:32,276 --> 00:50:35,196
Speaker 3: park the car and you walked across the street while

808
00:50:35,236 --> 00:50:40,436
Speaker 3: I'm doing this is when changed the demeanor keeven in mine.

809
00:50:40,476 --> 00:50:42,156
Speaker 3: I'd been talking to her for almost two hours, and

810
00:50:42,196 --> 00:50:46,396
Speaker 3: by that time, Anna and I were almost like buddies. Okay,

811
00:50:46,636 --> 00:50:49,876
Speaker 3: not that close, but where we have a great rapport going.

812
00:50:50,236 --> 00:50:53,836
Speaker 3: She's actually joking about stuff or making funny remarks every

813
00:50:53,836 --> 00:50:57,316
Speaker 3: once in a while about stuff. It's that casual, and

814
00:50:57,356 --> 00:51:00,356
Speaker 3: then all of a sudden it's huge. Change came over

815
00:51:00,876 --> 00:51:04,196
Speaker 3: and you could see it, and one minute she's just

816
00:51:04,876 --> 00:51:09,516
Speaker 3: almost flirting stuff. We were having a good time at that. Oh,

817
00:51:09,836 --> 00:51:13,876
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, it's like at was handing the

818
00:51:13,916 --> 00:51:18,156
Speaker 3: cookie jar and his back and monsters you have. She

819
00:51:18,316 --> 00:51:23,036
Speaker 3: was looking at me like and denying, but looking at

820
00:51:23,036 --> 00:51:25,276
Speaker 3: me with that looked like, what do you know?

821
00:51:26,556 --> 00:51:31,236
Speaker 1: After her arrest, investigators discovered what had really happened that night.

822
00:51:31,956 --> 00:51:35,236
Speaker 1: The Cubans had an arrangement with her. If she ever

823
00:51:35,356 --> 00:51:38,356
Speaker 1: spotted one of her old handlers on the street, it

824
00:51:38,476 --> 00:51:41,556
Speaker 1: meant that her spymasters urgently needed to talk to her

825
00:51:41,596 --> 00:51:45,236
Speaker 1: in person. She should keep walking and meet the following

826
00:51:45,276 --> 00:51:49,316
Speaker 1: morning at a pre arranged site. That night, when she

827
00:51:49,436 --> 00:51:52,236
Speaker 1: got home from the Pentagon, she saw one of her

828
00:51:52,236 --> 00:51:57,036
Speaker 1: old handlers standing by her apartment building. So when Carmichael

829
00:51:57,076 --> 00:52:01,076
Speaker 1: asked her pointedly, who did you see? Did you see

830
00:52:01,116 --> 00:52:03,796
Speaker 1: anyone as you came home, she must have thought that

831
00:52:03,916 --> 00:52:07,036
Speaker 1: he knew about the arrangement, that he was on to her.

832
00:52:07,836 --> 00:52:10,556
Speaker 3: She's scared the fucking dam and she thought I knew

833
00:52:10,556 --> 00:52:13,396
Speaker 3: it and I didn't. I mean, I had no idea,

834
00:52:13,836 --> 00:52:16,116
Speaker 3: I didn't know what I had. I knew I had something.

835
00:52:16,956 --> 00:52:20,356
Speaker 3: I knew there was something, And long after the interview,

836
00:52:20,396 --> 00:52:21,876
Speaker 3: I looked back at that, and what did I do?

837
00:52:21,956 --> 00:52:23,796
Speaker 3: I did the same thing every other human, I mean does,

838
00:52:24,196 --> 00:52:28,396
Speaker 3: But I rationalized it away. I thought, well, maybe she

839
00:52:28,596 --> 00:52:32,116
Speaker 3: was maybe she's been seeing a married guy and she

840
00:52:32,236 --> 00:52:34,956
Speaker 3: hooked up with her merriat and she didn't want to

841
00:52:34,996 --> 00:52:38,116
Speaker 3: tell me. Or maybe she's a lesbian or something and

842
00:52:38,196 --> 00:52:40,716
Speaker 3: she was hooking up with a girlfriend she doesn't want

843
00:52:40,756 --> 00:52:44,116
Speaker 3: us to know. She's worried about that. I started thinking

844
00:52:44,116 --> 00:52:48,396
Speaker 3: about all these other possibilities, and I accepted just enough

845
00:52:48,716 --> 00:52:51,716
Speaker 3: so that I wouldn't keep going crazy. Accepted it.

846
00:52:53,316 --> 00:52:57,236
Speaker 1: Anna Montes wasn't a master spy. She didn't need to be.

847
00:52:58,316 --> 00:53:00,716
Speaker 1: In a world where our lie detector is set to

848
00:53:00,756 --> 00:53:04,196
Speaker 1: the off position, a spy is always going to have

849
00:53:04,236 --> 00:53:09,036
Speaker 1: an easy time of it. And was Scott Carmichael somehow negligent?

850
00:53:09,796 --> 00:53:12,836
Speaker 1: Not at all? He did what truth default theory would

851
00:53:12,876 --> 00:53:16,356
Speaker 1: predict any of us would do. He operated from the

852
00:53:16,476 --> 00:53:21,076
Speaker 1: assumption that Anna Montes was telling the truth, and, almost

853
00:53:21,156 --> 00:53:24,716
Speaker 1: without realizing it, work to square everything she said with

854
00:53:24,836 --> 00:53:28,556
Speaker 1: that assumption. We need a trigger to snap out of

855
00:53:28,596 --> 00:53:32,236
Speaker 1: the default to truth. But the threshold for triggers is high.

856
00:53:32,956 --> 00:53:37,996
Speaker 1: Carmichael was nowhere near that point. The simple truth, as

857
00:53:38,036 --> 00:53:42,276
Speaker 1: Tim Levine argues, is that lie detection does not cannot

858
00:53:42,516 --> 00:53:46,356
Speaker 1: work the way we expect it to work. In the movies,

859
00:53:46,516 --> 00:53:50,556
Speaker 1: the brilliant detective confronts the subject and catches him right

860
00:53:50,596 --> 00:53:53,476
Speaker 1: then and there in a lie. But in real life,

861
00:53:53,876 --> 00:53:57,436
Speaker 1: accumulating the amount of evidence necessary to overwhelm our doubts

862
00:53:57,556 --> 00:54:01,036
Speaker 1: takes time. You ask your husband if he is having

863
00:54:01,076 --> 00:54:04,396
Speaker 1: an affair, and he says no, and you believe him.

864
00:54:04,676 --> 00:54:07,316
Speaker 1: Your default is that he is telling the truth, and

865
00:54:07,396 --> 00:54:10,996
Speaker 1: whatever little inconsistency as you spot in his story, you

866
00:54:11,156 --> 00:54:15,036
Speaker 1: explained away. But three months later you happen to notice

867
00:54:15,076 --> 00:54:18,396
Speaker 1: an unusual hotel charge on his credit card bill, and

868
00:54:18,436 --> 00:54:22,476
Speaker 1: the combination of that and weeks of unexplained absences and

869
00:54:22,556 --> 00:54:26,436
Speaker 1: mysterious phone calls pushes you over the top. That's how

870
00:54:26,516 --> 00:54:30,916
Speaker 1: lies are detected. This is why the Cubans were able

871
00:54:30,956 --> 00:54:33,916
Speaker 1: to pull the wool over the CIA's eyes for so long.

872
00:54:35,076 --> 00:54:39,116
Speaker 1: That story is not an indictment of the agency's competence.

873
00:54:39,876 --> 00:54:43,916
Speaker 1: It just reflects the fact that CIA officers are like

874
00:54:43,996 --> 00:54:47,716
Speaker 1: the rest of us human equipped with the same set

875
00:54:47,796 --> 00:54:52,676
Speaker 1: of biases to truth as everyone else. Carmichael went back

876
00:54:52,676 --> 00:54:56,516
Speaker 1: to Reg Brown and tried to explain it.

877
00:54:56,636 --> 00:54:59,676
Speaker 3: Just you know, I realized what it looks like to you.

878
00:54:59,796 --> 00:55:02,876
Speaker 3: I understand your reasoning that you think that this is

879
00:55:02,916 --> 00:55:07,636
Speaker 3: a deliberate influence operation. Look see what if it was.

880
00:55:08,396 --> 00:55:11,636
Speaker 3: I can't a finger at on to say she was

881
00:55:11,756 --> 00:55:13,116
Speaker 3: part of delivery efforts.

882
00:55:13,396 --> 00:55:17,636
Speaker 1: In the end, he says he just had to close

883
00:55:17,676 --> 00:55:23,716
Speaker 1: out the case. Four years after Scott Carmichael's interview with

884
00:55:23,836 --> 00:55:27,596
Speaker 1: Anna Montes, one of his colleagues the DA met an

885
00:55:27,676 --> 00:55:32,076
Speaker 1: analyst for the National Security Agency at an interagency meeting.

886
00:55:33,236 --> 00:55:36,596
Speaker 1: The NSA is the third arm of the US intelligence network,

887
00:55:36,916 --> 00:55:41,076
Speaker 1: along with the CIA and the DA. They are the codebreakers,

888
00:55:41,956 --> 00:55:45,036
Speaker 1: and the analyst said that her agency had had some

889
00:55:45,276 --> 00:55:48,636
Speaker 1: success with the codes that the Cubans were using to

890
00:55:48,676 --> 00:55:52,956
Speaker 1: communicate with their agents. The codes were long rows of

891
00:55:53,036 --> 00:55:57,556
Speaker 1: numbers broadcast at regular intervals over shortwave radio, and the

892
00:55:57,676 --> 00:56:01,196
Speaker 1: NSA had managed to decode a few snippets. They had

893
00:56:01,196 --> 00:56:03,196
Speaker 1: given the list of tidbits to the FBI two and

894
00:56:03,236 --> 00:56:06,676
Speaker 1: a half years before, but had heard nothing back. Out

895
00:56:06,676 --> 00:56:10,556
Speaker 1: of frustration, the NSA analysts to share a few details

896
00:56:10,756 --> 00:56:15,276
Speaker 1: with her DIA counterpart, the Cubans had a highly placed

897
00:56:15,276 --> 00:56:19,316
Speaker 1: spy in Washington whom they called Agent S. She said

898
00:56:20,076 --> 00:56:24,436
Speaker 1: Agent S had an interest in something called a safe system,

899
00:56:24,756 --> 00:56:28,556
Speaker 1: and Agent S had apparently visited the American base at

900
00:56:28,556 --> 00:56:32,196
Speaker 1: Guantanamo Bay in the two week time frame from July

901
00:56:32,436 --> 00:56:38,036
Speaker 1: fourth to July eighteenth, nineteen ninety six. The man from

902
00:56:38,076 --> 00:56:43,876
Speaker 1: the DIA was alarmed. Safe was the name of the

903
00:56:43,956 --> 00:56:49,596
Speaker 1: DIA's internal computer messaging archive that strongly suggested that Agent

904
00:56:49,796 --> 00:56:53,196
Speaker 1: S was at the DIA, or at least closely affiliated

905
00:56:53,196 --> 00:56:56,956
Speaker 1: with the DIA. He came back and told his supervisors.

906
00:56:57,556 --> 00:56:59,956
Speaker 1: They told Carmichael. He was angry.

907
00:57:00,916 --> 00:57:03,036
Speaker 3: He said, two and a half years, how many DIA

908
00:57:03,036 --> 00:57:06,116
Speaker 3: employees have gone on there. You've never opened up. They've

909
00:57:06,116 --> 00:57:08,516
Speaker 3: never told me they open a freaking case on DII

910
00:57:08,556 --> 00:57:11,156
Speaker 3: in boy Old Mother Farmers.

911
00:57:11,796 --> 00:57:17,596
Speaker 1: He was the DIA's counterintelligence investigator. He knew exactly what

912
00:57:17,676 --> 00:57:21,396
Speaker 1: he had to do, a search of the DIA computer system.

913
00:57:21,636 --> 00:57:25,396
Speaker 1: Any Department of Defense employee who travels to Guantanamo Bay

914
00:57:25,636 --> 00:57:29,156
Speaker 1: needs to get approval. They need to send two messages

915
00:57:29,196 --> 00:57:33,116
Speaker 1: through the Pentagon system, asking first for permission to travel

916
00:57:33,156 --> 00:57:35,716
Speaker 1: and then for permission to talk to whomever they wished

917
00:57:35,716 --> 00:57:40,756
Speaker 1: to interview at the base. Okay, so two messages. Carmichael said.

918
00:57:41,676 --> 00:57:44,756
Speaker 1: He guessed that the earliest anyone traveling to Guantanamo Bay

919
00:57:44,796 --> 00:57:48,756
Speaker 1: in July would apply for their clearances was April, so

920
00:57:48,836 --> 00:57:53,356
Speaker 1: he had his search parameters travel authority and security clearance

921
00:57:53,436 --> 00:57:58,836
Speaker 1: requests from DIA employees regarding Guantanamo Bay made between April

922
00:57:58,836 --> 00:58:03,716
Speaker 1: first and July eighteenth, nineteen ninety six. He told his

923
00:58:03,756 --> 00:58:07,716
Speaker 1: co worker Gator Johnson to run the same search simultaneously.

924
00:58:08,476 --> 00:58:11,996
Speaker 1: Two heads will be better than one. They began searching

925
00:58:12,676 --> 00:58:13,916
Speaker 1: to the safe system.

926
00:58:14,316 --> 00:58:16,276
Speaker 3: I thought, I'm gonna go through this real quick and

927
00:58:16,356 --> 00:58:18,796
Speaker 3: just see something jumps on it. And that's when I

928
00:58:18,876 --> 00:58:20,716
Speaker 3: hit That's when I'm pretty sure it was the twenty

929
00:58:20,756 --> 00:58:23,876
Speaker 3: four hit me and it was Hannabi Montes and the

930
00:58:23,996 --> 00:58:26,276
Speaker 3: game was fucking over. And I mean it was over

931
00:58:26,316 --> 00:58:32,116
Speaker 3: in a heart, and I was really stunned, speechless, stunned.

932
00:58:33,796 --> 00:58:36,236
Speaker 3: I could have fallen out of my chair, and I

933
00:58:36,356 --> 00:58:40,116
Speaker 3: literally backed up, you know, I was on wheels. I

934
00:58:40,316 --> 00:58:46,756
Speaker 3: was literally distancing myself from this bad news.

935
00:58:47,756 --> 00:58:50,156
Speaker 1: Carmichael said, Oh shit,