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Speaker 1: Just when you think things couldn't get more chaotic in

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Speaker 1: the United States, it does. We've got a lot going

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Speaker 1: on in the country right now. We've been talking about

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Speaker 1: the recent train derailment in East Palestine, Ohio, releasing toxic chemicals,

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Speaker 1: people not being able to breathe, eyes or burning. Animals

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Speaker 1: are dying. And that's not the only train derailment. There's

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Speaker 1: been other train derailments recently. We have multiple flying objects

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Speaker 1: that have been shot down. Our own Defense Secretary, Lloyd

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Speaker 1: Austin has said, we don't know what we're shooting down,

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Speaker 1: but we're shooting it down anyways. We've seen power outages

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Speaker 1: on Capitol Hill recently, power outages at airports recently. The

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Speaker 1: f A recently grounded all planes for the first time

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Speaker 1: since nine eleven. They said it was a system glitch.

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Speaker 1: Was it? What's really going on? We're going to talk

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Speaker 1: to former Secretary of State and the former CIA director

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Speaker 1: Mike Pompeo about all of it. We're also going to

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Speaker 1: get his take on the threat from China as well

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Speaker 1: as these reports that the United States was behind the

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Speaker 1: sabotaging of the nord Stream pipelines, not Russia. So what

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Speaker 1: does that mean? For America. Have they re alliated? Would

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Speaker 1: our government even tell us if they had. He's also

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Speaker 1: out with a new book called Never Given Inch, Fighting

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Speaker 1: for the America I Love. We'll get into that as well.

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Speaker 1: Stay tuned for Mike Pompeo Secretary Mike Pompeo. Boy, do

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Speaker 1: we miss you. We miss the adults being in charge.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever think the world would get this chaotic

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Speaker 1: this soon? No, at Lisa, and thank you for having

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Speaker 1: me on. I certainly didn't anticipate that it would deteriorate

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Speaker 1: this fast. When we were leaving, we knew that these

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Speaker 1: folks had a fundamentally different view of America. It's placed

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Speaker 1: in the world and putting America first. But I don't

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Speaker 1: think anybody could have anticipated the chaos we find ourselves

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Speaker 1: in today, the cascading series of crises, and uh, well,

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Speaker 1: there's a long way to go for the next two

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Speaker 1: years to make sure that we don't have even further

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Speaker 1: crisis before there's a change in leadership, and before we

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Speaker 1: get to some foreign policy stuff, I wanted to talk

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Speaker 1: to you about what's going on in East Palestine, Ohio,

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Speaker 1: with this train wreck that happened releasing toxic chemicals, not

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Speaker 1: getting much attention. We're talking about dead animals, people with

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Speaker 1: chemical burns. Do you think this would be getting more

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Speaker 1: attention if it was happening in Ukraine rather than a

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Speaker 1: Trump county, Oh goodness, I don't know. It would certainly

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Speaker 1: be getting more attention if our administration was still in office.

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Speaker 1: They used every possible opportunity to come and take down

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Speaker 1: what we were trying to do. I am surprised that

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Speaker 1: there's not more focused on this. There is enormous amount

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Speaker 1: of risk with the large amount of chemicals that were

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Speaker 1: released here. It's still what doing out days and days

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Speaker 1: and days on from this. Very few answers more questions

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Speaker 1: today than we had even when the incident occurred. The

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Speaker 1: American people need to focus on this, not only to

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Speaker 1: make sure we do the right thing for protecting those

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Speaker 1: that are in the space, the first responders who came

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Speaker 1: when the event happened, but also we need to make

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Speaker 1: sure this doesn't happen again. This is another element of

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Speaker 1: a failure of the basic systems inside of our own country. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, lack of leadership you again, which is why

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Speaker 1: you know we missed you guys. You had mentioned, you know,

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Speaker 1: sort of another example of you know sort of you know,

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Speaker 1: failure in the United States, failed infrastructure, But there just

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Speaker 1: seems to be a lot of things going on at

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Speaker 1: the same time, and multiple flying objects, allegedly, multiple train wrecks,

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Speaker 1: power outages on Capitol Hill, power outages at airports. The

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Speaker 1: f A recently grounded planes for the first time since

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Speaker 1: night eleven due to a quote unquote system glitch. I mean,

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Speaker 1: are we being attacked? What's actually going on? Is there

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Speaker 1: something bigger happening right now? It just seems to be

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Speaker 1: a lot of things going on at once. Look, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm an engineer by training. I think things can happen

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Speaker 1: in bunches in this way. But it's the case that

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Speaker 1: it's a part of a failure system. As your point

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Speaker 1: on the aviation, whatever had to happen since eleven, for

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Speaker 1: goodness taken secondary bootige. I had said, nothing to see here, folks.

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Speaker 1: This is the real frustration. Whether it's these unidentified objects,

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Speaker 1: that balloon that came over our country that by the

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Speaker 1: administrations approaches through fixie us in the air hope they

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Speaker 1: convert our eyes from one are things that really put

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Speaker 1: the American people at risk, and so that the task

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Speaker 1: is what you described it's about American leaders, not just presidents, governors,

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Speaker 1: kind of commissioners, uh police chiefs across the country to

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Speaker 1: do their job to enforce basic criminal laws d as.

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Speaker 1: But those are the kinds of things that begin to

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Speaker 1: Lisa tear it that seems the very fabric of our country.

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Speaker 1: And if you ask me what's my biggest concern, that

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Speaker 1: is it? It is that we are not attending to

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Speaker 1: those core functions. We are not defending our nation's studio

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Speaker 1: Christian heritage in a way that prevents and reduces risks

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Speaker 1: of exactly the kind of thing that you're describing. Well,

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Speaker 1: and I think too, you know, one of the bigger

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Speaker 1: problems we have is just distrust in our own government.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we saw the amount of lives that we

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Speaker 1: were told during COVID. We have an administration who told

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Speaker 1: us they took out a Taliban terrorists with a drone

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Speaker 1: and it was an AID worker. So they just they

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Speaker 1: don't even try to tell us the truth. They don't

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Speaker 1: even feel like they have an obligation to speak with us.

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Speaker 1: And you know, and that kind of gets to this

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Speaker 1: recent report that perhaps we were the ones that sabotage

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Speaker 1: the Nords stream pipelines. You know, Biden did say that

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Speaker 1: of Russia invaded Ukraine, we would end Nordstream to Secretary

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Speaker 1: Blincoln praised the sabotaging, saying that it was a tremendous opportunity.

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Speaker 1: Were we behind it? The first of all, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: and I'm no longer in government. I was a side director, uh,

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Speaker 1: and so I know some of the capabilities we would have.

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Speaker 1: I think it's incredibly unlikely it was us. We were

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Speaker 1: trying to end the nord Stream pipeline. Also, we were

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Speaker 1: using sanctions, We're using diplomatic pressure, We're using all kinds

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Speaker 1: of tools to convince the Germans not to depend on

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Speaker 1: Russia for its energy supply, knowing that that would end

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Speaker 1: badly for not only people in Germany, but even more

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Speaker 1: broadly in Europe. So look, I don't know, have been

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Speaker 1: have been explored, But it seems to me incredibly unlikely

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Speaker 1: this was the United States effort like that would that

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Speaker 1: would be out of character for the administration as well.

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Speaker 1: This is an administration that wouldn't shoot down a balloon

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Speaker 1: over America for five days. To think they're going to

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Speaker 1: attack another country's pipeline underwater, it's just straight it's strange

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Speaker 1: credulity for me. But then I guess it'd be like

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Speaker 1: who else would do it, because you know Russians, But

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Speaker 1: the Russians would do it. But it makes perfect sense.

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Speaker 1: But how didn't they already you know, cut off the

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Speaker 1: flow of natural gas, you know, sort of when they

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Speaker 1: pick it. So why if you already have access to it,

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Speaker 1: if you already have the ability to turn it off

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Speaker 1: and on as you choose, why sabotage leverage? Right? Lots

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Speaker 1: of reasons. I think Putin understands that pipeline is not

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Speaker 1: coming back in. It's never going to be another vibe,

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Speaker 1: it's not going to be a viable economic asset for

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Speaker 1: him ever, certainly in the relevant time period in his life.

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Speaker 1: And so demonstrate to the Germans that they can't, the

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Speaker 1: Europeans more brother, they can't get this thing back. And

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Speaker 1: I think that's precisely what happens. Like if you're in

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Speaker 1: a cage match, right, and you will go to the cage,

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Speaker 1: you lock the door, you take the key, and you

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Speaker 1: throw it away. I'm in this thing like that is

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Speaker 1: a far more likely possibility than the United States actually

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Speaker 1: did it look happy to happy to continue to investigate

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Speaker 1: your Your point about government distrust is real. I grew

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Speaker 1: up in a family we we understood the government power

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Speaker 1: created risk, and therefore you ought to mitigate the power

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Speaker 1: government has um. I grew up with a deep distrust

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Speaker 1: of government. I wanted the private sector to have more space.

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Speaker 1: When I say that, family's parents p t A s schools,

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Speaker 1: not folks in Washington, d C. Now, I totally. I

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Speaker 1: guess where my mind is is that if we did

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Speaker 1: do it, which you know you'd Biden forecasting that, then

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Speaker 1: you know Russia would obviously respond. And we have all

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Speaker 1: a lot of these infrastructure failures within cyber sort of

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Speaker 1: a new frontier or the frontier, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: you know, warcraft and whatnot. So it seems like perhaps

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Speaker 1: maybe some of that's behind some of the strange things

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Speaker 1: were happening. You know, That's where where my mind is.

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Speaker 1: Obviously you've been in these positions. But remember so this

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Speaker 1: is this is a longstanding problem for this administration. Don't

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Speaker 1: forget the Russians shut down our gasoling pipelines in the

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Speaker 1: Southeast long before the Nords dream to incident. So Russia's

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Speaker 1: attacks on our infrastructure, their efforts g r U efforts

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Speaker 1: and otherwise that's the Russian Special Service, a Russian special service.

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Speaker 1: This this, this is not new. Um. We need to

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Speaker 1: be mindful that the Russians have tried to engage in

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Speaker 1: interfering with propaganda. They've conducted espionage against us, They've conducted

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Speaker 1: cybertext against us. Uh. This is why what we did

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Speaker 1: for four years was so importantly said, we deterred this

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Speaker 1: very aggression from Russia. M Puttin did not invade Europe

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Speaker 1: on our watch. He did it under President Obama's watch.

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Speaker 1: He's now done it on Joe Biden's watch. He understood

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Speaker 1: we were different and we would respond differently to protect

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Speaker 1: you in America. Will you guys really change my thinking

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Speaker 1: on foreign policy because you showed how you know, you

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Speaker 1: don't necessarily have to engage in war to deter the enemy.

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Speaker 1: You can just be strong, which is you know what

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Speaker 1: you guys did. I mean, isn't the fact that you

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Speaker 1: know China flew this aircraft over They didn't they do

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Speaker 1: it because they could? That might be the most elegant

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Speaker 1: simple explanation. Uh. And with with the rings with truth, right,

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Speaker 1: think think about this. Think what Shi Jing Ping has

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Speaker 1: observed in the first Now two years and change of

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Speaker 1: the Biden administration attacked pipeline in the United States. President

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Speaker 1: Biden did nothing. He talked about a minor incurasion in

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Speaker 1: Ukraine being quote, okay, he had thirteen Americans killed in

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Speaker 1: the debacle that was the departure from Afghanistan. The way

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Speaker 1: they conducted that, every single signal that these bad guys

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Speaker 1: would receive was hey, it's what's the old Southwest Airlines line?

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Speaker 1: They feel free to move about the cabin and right,

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Speaker 1: this is, this is this is exactly your point. They

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Speaker 1: could and they're testing. And you know, I was a

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Speaker 1: young kidata West Point forty something years ago. Now you

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Speaker 1: know that adversaries will push. They will absolutely push until

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Speaker 1: they meet steel. And I don't feel like any of

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Speaker 1: them feel like there's much steel in this administration. Let's

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Speaker 1: take a quick commercial break more with Secretary Mike Pompeo.

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Speaker 1: You know what I think is so strange. So you've

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Speaker 1: got John Kirby, a White House Council spokesperson, recently saying that, oh,

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Speaker 1: we were able to identify the high altitude balloon program,

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Speaker 1: but the Trump and mystery and did not. How would

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Speaker 1: they know if they weren't there during your It doesn't

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Speaker 1: even make sense, like where, why, why do you think

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Speaker 1: they're even talking about this? What are they talking about?

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Speaker 1: What do you make of all of it? At least

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Speaker 1: I talked about this and never give an inch in

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Speaker 1: the book. They're throwing dust in the air, showing us

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Speaker 1: a shiny objects, trying to divert attention from the blunder

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Speaker 1: from the humiliation of having a Chinese balloon over your

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Speaker 1: country for five days when every American and people all

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Speaker 1: across the world we're watching. That's that's the reason that

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Speaker 1: the original narrative was what's the best with Trump? Did

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Speaker 1: it too? Write like a five year old? Um. We

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Speaker 1: we know that they've now backed off of that. I

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Speaker 1: don't I don't know what it is they're referring to.

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Speaker 1: I can speak to this pretty clearly. I've spoken to

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Speaker 1: nearly every senior Trump administration official. There was no balloon

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Speaker 1: sides to three buses flying over Montana, Kansas, and South

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Speaker 1: Carolina on our watch. Had it, I would have been

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Speaker 1: the former Secretary State and uh, we would not have

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Speaker 1: formidten this to happen in this way. So I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I think they're just trying to distract from what they

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Speaker 1: know as a failure of the administration to defend American

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Speaker 1: sovereignty not only in the air, but what's happening in

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Speaker 1: our southern border too well. And you've got Lloyd Austin

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Speaker 1: being like, Yeah, we don't really know what we're shooting down,

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Speaker 1: but we're shooting things down anyways. And it's like, how

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Speaker 1: is that good policy? That doesn't seem like leadership, sir?

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Speaker 1: What are you doing? A little bit? A couple just

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Speaker 1: very odd comments, right, I could ask you this be aliens.

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Speaker 1: We're rually nothing out. I'm pretty confident they know these

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Speaker 1: weren't alien efforts. Um. I guess is that they know

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Speaker 1: precisely the trajectory and tracking of each of the objects

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Speaker 1: they shot down, so they're more to come. They ought

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Speaker 1: to tell us they have to take down this uncertainty,

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Speaker 1: and they ought to not only speak to it, but

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Speaker 1: demonstrated to so we can have confidence that they're doing

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Speaker 1: the right things. It's not it's not in the hallmark

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Speaker 1: of the last two years, at least to say the least.

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Speaker 1: And you guys handled China spying differently. I know that

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Speaker 1: you when we found out that there was a big

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Speaker 1: spiring in Houston, you basically gave them seventy two hours

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Speaker 1: to get the heck out of there. Q. Talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about how deep is China spying in the

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Speaker 1: United States, you know, how much where do their tentacles go?

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Speaker 1: What should people know about what they're doing? You know,

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about that from what you learned

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Speaker 1: in in you know, the CIA director and secretary states

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Speaker 1: that you would know at least. The subtitle of the

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Speaker 1: book is fighting for the America I love and the

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Speaker 1: one thing that can change the trajectory of our country.

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Speaker 1: The reason you can't give an inch, like the title

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Speaker 1: of the book, is because of the threat from the

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Speaker 1: Chinese Communist Party inside the gates. So it's easy to

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Speaker 1: you know, handwave Taiwan. That's the problem for somebody else. Okay,

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Speaker 1: what they're doing in the South Pacific, all right, that

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Speaker 1: seems like a long ways away. They are inside our

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Speaker 1: universities today, they're they're operating espionage operations from all across

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Speaker 1: the country, and this balloon is symptomatic of that. And

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Speaker 1: what we were good about. Your point is right. We

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Speaker 1: didn't send the eighty second airborne. Then we didn't we

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Speaker 1: didn't conduct the war, but we confronted every place. And

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Speaker 1: so when I became Secretary State, I had known of

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Speaker 1: and frankly we all had known for a bit this

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Speaker 1: massive spy ring inside the Chinese diplomatic facility in Houston, Texas.

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Speaker 1: And you know, nobody had wanted to close it down

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Speaker 1: because quote, it will provoke Sherman Kim or Shoes being

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Speaker 1: rather end to quote, and I said, that's just silly.

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Speaker 1: The American people are risking billions of dollars of intellectual property,

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Speaker 1: millions of jobs at risk, and so we closed it.

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Speaker 1: These are the kinds of things that administrations can do.

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Speaker 1: And we sent to a very clear signal to Shoes,

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Speaker 1: you can stop it, back off, and we set them

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Speaker 1: back for a couple of years. But it is a

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Speaker 1: continuous effort. And this threat in our schools, in our

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Speaker 1: p t as, in our American pension funds, selling real

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Speaker 1: estate to China inside of our country, these are things

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Speaker 1: that are just crazy risky, and this administration needs to

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Speaker 1: get serious about protecting the American people from this threat

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Speaker 1: of China here inside the gates. Well, and to your point,

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Speaker 1: it's you know, like these bullys respond to strength, not weakness,

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Speaker 1: which is why they're taking advantage of this administration, I

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Speaker 1: sort of view foreign policy, which you can tell me

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Speaker 1: if this is a UM equation, but of sort of

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Speaker 1: like a playground, right, And you don't want to be

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Speaker 1: the kid like getting picked on and your lunch money still,

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Speaker 1: you know, like you kind of have to be the

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Speaker 1: guy out on the playground that everyone's sort of like, oh,

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Speaker 1: don't mess with that guy, you know, like we don't

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Speaker 1: know what he's gonna do, you know, And I feel

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Speaker 1: like you guys were that guy at the playground thing, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, you don't mess it. We were also determined

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Speaker 1: to say that the folks in our possibly needed to

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Speaker 1: do their part two right. So UM, you to extend

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Speaker 1: the playground analogy maybe a bit too far. You need

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Speaker 1: to make sure that the folks around you who are

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Speaker 1: on your side are sharing in the risk and picking

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Speaker 1: up their fair share of the tab. So you know,

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Speaker 1: we did that with NATO. It didn't make us very

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Speaker 1: many friends at European COTCAIL parties. We did it in

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Speaker 1: Southeast Asia, building out what became called the quad right Australia, Japan, India,

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Speaker 1: the United States, and then we asked countries like Singapore

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Speaker 1: with like this is your backyard in the first instance,

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Speaker 1: this is your responsibility. We're happy to be there, we're

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Speaker 1: happy to provide American power, but we need you to

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Speaker 1: do your part. Two and that that line drawing and

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Speaker 1: it Never Given Inch. I talk about the risk that's

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Speaker 1: created when you refuse to draw a line. You know,

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Speaker 1: the sun is said, you draw a line, you're daring

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Speaker 1: the bully. If you draw a line and defend it,

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Speaker 1: it won't take long for the bad guys to figure

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Speaker 1: out that that line is real and the leaders that

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Speaker 1: are backing up that commitment are serious, and it reduces

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Speaker 1: an enormous amount of risk when you draw those lines,

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Speaker 1: so long as you're not drawing lines everywhere and always.

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Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break more with Mike Pompeo. You

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Speaker 1: talk about leadership a lot in your book Never Given Inch,

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Speaker 1: which you've mentioned and we mentioned in the intro to

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Speaker 1: the audience as well. Um, you know you've been in

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Speaker 1: a lot of very important leadership positions in the country.

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Speaker 1: What have you learned about leadership in those roles? Oh? Goodness, Um,

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Speaker 1: you know it starts with listening. Listen a lot of times.

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Speaker 1: You've got real smart people around. Hopefully if you've built

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Speaker 1: the team right, a high performing team. You've got a

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Speaker 1: lot of smart people. Listen, learn, take on board others concerns,

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Speaker 1: and then make decisions. And when you do so, be decisive,

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Speaker 1: defend those decisions. If you get it wrong, fix it,

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Speaker 1: but lean into the things you know to be true.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things I saw like I had

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Speaker 1: never seen in my life, Lisa at the State Department

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Speaker 1: was an institution that was fundamentally focused on something totally

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Speaker 1: disconnected from a mission mission set. And it's a little

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Speaker 1: bit part of partisan. At the State Department, there are

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Speaker 1: three unions. It is a left of left of center institution,

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Speaker 1: but it's mostly an establishment institution. And so when we

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Speaker 1: came in and we were trying to break glass, it

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Speaker 1: took every bit of all the leadership I had learned from,

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Speaker 1: you know, my first leadership job as assistant manager at

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Speaker 1: Bascott Robbins to my time was a tank platoon there.

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Speaker 1: It took every bit of those skills of listening, processing

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Speaker 1: and then providing clear instructions focused on the mission. And

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Speaker 1: even then, even seventy employees at the State Department, even then,

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Speaker 1: I'm not convinced that that blob, that Washington blob, established

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Speaker 1: foreign policy establishment was doing the things that President Trump

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Speaker 1: and I were asking them to do well, and that's

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Speaker 1: going to be frustrating to to sort of I mean,

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Speaker 1: we saw a lot of that. How do you sort

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Speaker 1: of write that ship where you know, we sort of

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Speaker 1: saw this deep state during the Trump administration or bureaucratic state,

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Speaker 1: whatever people want to call it, where people within government

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Speaker 1: are basically trying to disrupt a duly elected president and

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Speaker 1: his team. What should the next Republican president due to

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Speaker 1: address that? I know how to fix this. There are

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Speaker 1: three things. First, get your team on the field. Every

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Speaker 1: one of these organizations. The Civil Rights Division is a

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Speaker 1: Justice Department, Department of Education, state department. They all have

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Speaker 1: political leadership. Get your team in there. It took us

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Speaker 1: almost two years, and so for those twenty four months

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Speaker 1: think about this would be like the equivalent of this

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Speaker 1: point in the byinonization. You still had Obama people running

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Speaker 1: important operations inside of the United States government. American people

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Speaker 1: didn't ask for that. Second, be clear about expectations, and

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Speaker 1: be fearless in punishing folks who decide they don't want

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Speaker 1: to be part of the mission set. It's not about

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Speaker 1: adopting my view of the world. They can have whatever

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Speaker 1: political views they want, but we're in charge as a

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Speaker 1: duly confirmed Secretary State. He was the president. President was

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Speaker 1: the President United States. Their mission set that day is

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Speaker 1: to do the things we tell them. And then finally, Lisa,

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Speaker 1: massive structural reform at each of these institutions. Get rid

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Speaker 1: of the unions work workforce is based on merit. So

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Speaker 1: think about this. I couldn't promote people who did good work,

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Speaker 1: and I couldn't find other alternative employment, either at the

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Speaker 1: State Department or someplace else for those who were failing.

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Speaker 1: That means you're not really in charge of the institution.

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Speaker 1: And a president and I can say it'll take a

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Speaker 1: long time, it will take six years, it'll take eight years.

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Speaker 1: But a president determined to do that and to put

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Speaker 1: in a hiring system that isn't a one way ratchet

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Speaker 1: towards the progressive left. Those are the kinds of things

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Speaker 1: that a president could do and over a period of time,

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Speaker 1: you can get these institutions back to conform to the

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Speaker 1: dictates of the people who elected the president United States. Well,

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Speaker 1: those are all good reforms. I hope we make them

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Speaker 1: if we get another chance at having a Republican in

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Speaker 1: the White House before we go. The Republican primary field

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Speaker 1: is for presidential obviously get starting to fill up. How

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Speaker 1: crowded do you think it will get? Oh goodness, there'll

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Speaker 1: be a bunch. If we have sixteen last time, seventeen

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Speaker 1: something like that. I suspect it will be fewer than that.

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Speaker 1: But I don't know. I know that there's a candidate

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Speaker 1: announced today. I wish you're all the best. Um, it

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Speaker 1: is quite something to put yourself for that as a

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Speaker 1: major undertaking. I'm I'm obviously thinking my way through it

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Speaker 1: as well. UM. I guesses we'll have a whole handful

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Speaker 1: of people, and I hope that in relatively short order

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Speaker 1: we will find the discussion and debate not about tweets,

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Speaker 1: not about owning the Libs, but about the kinds of

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Speaker 1: things we've been talking about today, the serious things to

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Speaker 1: perform in a way that delivers good outcomes for the

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Speaker 1: American people. That is a discussion worth have. We can

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Speaker 1: see what happens when you don't do that. You can

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Speaker 1: see that we don't win elections. Conservatives don't win elections.

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Speaker 1: We need serious leaders prepared to actually make the case

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Speaker 1: and make arguments and tell the American people the truth

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Speaker 1: and I'm confident when we do that, they'll choose a

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Speaker 1: good president. Secretary Mike Pompeo. I appreciate your time, sir

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Speaker 1: Never Give An Inch, and I appreciate your service to

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Speaker 1: the country. Everyone go check it out. It's out in bookstores, sir.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for taking the time. Yes, man, Lisa,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much. You have a wonderful day. That

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Speaker 1: was former Secretary Mike Pompeo. I appreciate him making the time.

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Speaker 1: Make sure to go check out his new book, Never

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Speaker 1: Give an Inch. Interesting discussion, and thank you for listening

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Speaker 1: at home every Monday and Thursday, but you can listen

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Speaker 1: throughout the week. I want to thank my producer, John

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Speaker 1: Cassio for putting the show together. Please leave us a

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Speaker 1: review on Apple podcast love reading those. You can leave

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Speaker 1: us a rating or review as well. Until next time,

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Speaker 1: take care,