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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace is coming to Fox Nation. I want Justice

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, available now only on Fox Nation.

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Speaker 1: You know, I never pushed the twins to be involved

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Speaker 1: in any particular sport, but I can't tell you how

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Speaker 1: proud I was when Lucy played volleyball and John David

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Speaker 1: it's a soccer star. I'm talking about Chuck Ye Mak

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Speaker 1: Chuckie Mak, a little boy and I will forever remember

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Speaker 1: him in his little league outfit. His mom, Cathy so

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Speaker 1: proud of him, and she tells me she'll never forget

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Speaker 1: the night she had her hands in the sink washing

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Speaker 1: dishes after supper and he called out, mom kind of

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Speaker 1: go to seven to eleven and get some candy, and

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Speaker 1: she said sure. He was never seen alive by her again.

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Speaker 1: Who murdered this beautiful boy, Chucky Mack. I want Justice

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What could be more innocent

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Speaker 1: than a little boy asking mom to ride his bike

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Speaker 1: about a block and a half to the seven to

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Speaker 1: eleven the convenience store to get candy. You know, when

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Speaker 1: I look around, not Lucy, but John David, my son's bed,

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Speaker 1: all around his computer and basically everywhere he is in

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Speaker 1: the car, I find candy rappers. I do not give

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Speaker 1: him that, but he gets his hands on it somehow.

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Speaker 1: I guess the black market. At school, I'm just thinking

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Speaker 1: about this little boy, Chucky Mock. And when I think

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Speaker 1: about Chucky Mack, I envisioned him in his Little League

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Speaker 1: outfit because that's one of the only pictures I have

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Speaker 1: of him, and he has his big smile on his

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Speaker 1: face and he's looking right at the camera. I think

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Speaker 1: about my son at that age, and then I think

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Speaker 1: about Chucky's mother, who is now a friend of mine.

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Speaker 1: What happened to Chucky? And that one evening everything changed

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Speaker 1: that one question, Hey Mom, can I go get some candy?

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Speaker 1: Everything changed in an instant. I mean, see, Grace, this

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Speaker 1: is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us, with

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Speaker 1: me an all star panel to make sense of it all.

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Speaker 1: Jim Elliott, lawyer, Butler Snow legal counsel for Georgie Municipalities.

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Speaker 1: You can find in Butler's Snow dot Com. Professor Forensics,

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Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon.

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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, Psychoanalyst to the Stars, Joining me out

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Speaker 1: of Beverly Hill's Doctor Bethany Marshall at doctor Bethany Marshall

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Speaker 1: dot com, Founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute,

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Speaker 1: My longtime colleague. We met at a crime scene, Cheryl McCollum,

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Speaker 1: Crime online dot com investigative reporter Levi Page. But first

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Speaker 1: I'm going to go to my friend Kathy Miller, Chuckie's mom. Kathy,

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad you're with us today. Hey, my friend.

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Speaker 1: You know, Kathy, even when I hear your voice, I

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Speaker 1: would recognize it anywhere. But there are thousands of people

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Speaker 1: that don't know you and don't know Chucky's story. Can

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Speaker 1: I get you to start at the beginning When Chucky

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Speaker 1: asked to go to a seven to eleven. Okay, it

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Speaker 1: was February seventeenth of nineteen eighty six, and you know,

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Speaker 1: we had just had supper. I was just cleaning up

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Speaker 1: the supper dishes and he just came in esp if

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Speaker 1: he could go to seven to eleven because he would

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Speaker 1: buy candy to sell at school the next day at break.

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Speaker 1: He just thought he was making himself a little sending money.

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Speaker 1: So you know, in my hurry, you know, White, Kathy,

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Speaker 1: I've got to tell you something. There's been a development

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Speaker 1: with John David. Lucy is not let me see an entrepreneur. Entrepreneur,

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Speaker 1: but John David comes home because Mom, I invested in

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Speaker 1: a company. I'm like, really, tell me, because I invested

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Speaker 1: a dollar four quarters and so and so's company is

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Speaker 1: going to be big. Mom, because he told me I

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Speaker 1: can make a million dollars in a year. I'm like, well,

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Speaker 1: I hope that works. Gosh, that sounds like chuck at

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Speaker 1: a bank. I think it was like ten dollars at

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Speaker 1: the bag. Wanted to the last thing, but um, so

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Speaker 1: you're you go in my midst of climb a cli

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Speaker 1: and dishes and everything. I didn't look at him, and

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Speaker 1: I just said, okay, but hurry back. Okay, No, wait

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Speaker 1: a minute. The time of the day was it, Kathy?

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Speaker 1: It was like seven thirty, seven thirty at night in

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Speaker 1: the evening, not yet dark, and it was still light out,

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Speaker 1: and this little store is just like walking distance. It

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Speaker 1: was just like riot rumore is it? Did he go

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Speaker 1: on his bike as the crow flies? He went on

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Speaker 1: his bike? Yeah? Or did he go down the street

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Speaker 1: and turn? I mean, because yeah, he went like just

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Speaker 1: a few feet down the street and then into it's

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Speaker 1: a huge like like a little shopping center with a

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Speaker 1: bowling alley, yes, and a little grocery store. After we've

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Speaker 1: been the center, not big like a strip center, but

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Speaker 1: small like you know, just a few things in it.

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Speaker 1: So he goes, it's still light in the neighborhood, and

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Speaker 1: this was a neighbor Let me ask you something with me?

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Speaker 1: Is Kathy Miller? This is Chucky Mark's mom. Oh gosh,

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Speaker 1: I wish you could see that photo of Chucky in

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Speaker 1: his little League outfit. Okay, back to that evening you

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Speaker 1: had had dinner with the whole family. You said you

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Speaker 1: didn't even look at him. I understand that's because you

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Speaker 1: had your back turned to him in your hands in

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Speaker 1: the dishwater. Yes, I was. You know, you're doing a

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Speaker 1: million things and you just but I always used to

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Speaker 1: and I always tried to look at him before he'd left. Really,

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Speaker 1: why why does that stick in your head? That night?

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Speaker 1: I didn't, But why does that stick in your head?

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Speaker 1: Why would you always try to look at him? I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I just had it. I don't know, it

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Speaker 1: was just something I always did. I like, you know,

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Speaker 1: he had watched all these crime stories and they'll say, well,

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Speaker 1: what did he have on? You know? Or and they

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Speaker 1: did ask me that, you know, what was he wearing?

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Speaker 1: And it was just something I did. But I just

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Speaker 1: in the midst of everything, you know, I just thought

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Speaker 1: he'd been right back. I didn't do it, you know,

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Speaker 1: joining me. You may know her well. Kathy is the

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Speaker 1: founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute. We

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Speaker 1: met on a crime scene. I don't know how many

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Speaker 1: years ago, Cheryl McCollum. You know, Cheryl, I was so

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Speaker 1: I only thought about it later, but I was so

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Speaker 1: knocked out when a while back, it was Valentine's Day

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Speaker 1: actually that you and I read a crime event that

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Speaker 1: you arranged to help a family when an unsolved case.

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Speaker 1: And I said, where's Huck, which is your son? And

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Speaker 1: you could tell me immediately where he was and he

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Speaker 1: is actually in college on lacrosse scholarship and traveling that

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Speaker 1: night from his college to a lacrosse game somewhere out

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Speaker 1: of state, and you knew exactly where he was. And

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Speaker 1: I'm listening to Kathy, and I have this thing. I

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Speaker 1: take the twins to school, pick him up every day,

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Speaker 1: come hell or high water, and I watched them until

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Speaker 1: they walk in, until they have their hands on the

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Speaker 1: door and they go in. I think subconsciously it's because

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Speaker 1: of Karen Horman. I'm not sure about that, but I

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Speaker 1: watch to see them walk in once they get out

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Speaker 1: of the car, just like Kathie is saying, every time

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Speaker 1: he left, just for whatever reason, she always looked at him,

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Speaker 1: except that night. That night. And I tell you, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: my youngest son, Greg, who is forty two, I know

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Speaker 1: where he is all the time, and when he walks

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Speaker 1: out the store, I look at him. Cheryl McCollum jump in.

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Speaker 1: There is no doubt in my mind that you and

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Speaker 1: I parent differently because of believe ephrades, because of the chuckies.

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Speaker 1: We know, we know that there are devils walking this earth,

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Speaker 1: so we protect our children differently than our mother's protected us.

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Speaker 1: So to speak. Our mom said, hey, stay together on

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Speaker 1: the bike or come home before he gets Really mine

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Speaker 1: never said that, but he knew you. This is funny, funny, odd,

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Speaker 1: I guess we were out in the middle of nowhere,

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Speaker 1: as you know, Kathy, in rural Bibb County. It was

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Speaker 1: not even in the city of Making, And when we

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Speaker 1: would hear the chimes ringing in the church steeple, we

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Speaker 1: would know it was six o'clock. Or way at the distance,

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Speaker 1: would hear somebody blowing the car horn and that would

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Speaker 1: be a message wherever we were to come home right

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Speaker 1: then get home. So let me ask you, Kathy, exactly

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Speaker 1: that evening it was you, Chucky, his then little brother,

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Speaker 1: anybody else in the home, Yeah, my husband Chucky steps right, okay,

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Speaker 1: So take a listen to what you told me. February seventeenth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty six. The night he died, It was a

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Speaker 1: Monday night, the night he died, at the full Monday

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Speaker 1: night for us, the night he died. And that's kind

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Speaker 1: of like when my world just fell apart. Had wanted

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Speaker 1: to go to the grocery stores right down the road,

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Speaker 1: right around the corner from where we lived. It was

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Speaker 1: an over in a matter of moment, to buy some

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Speaker 1: candies for the next day. There was a group of

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Speaker 1: kids here all the time. One of his friends came

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Speaker 1: to our door and told us that Chucky it looked

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Speaker 1: like Chuckie was hurt. But you never forget this point. Gosh,

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Speaker 1: he's fallen off his bike, he's hurt his leg or something,

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Speaker 1: and he was just laying right here. And the closer

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Speaker 1: I got, I knew it was so much more than that,

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Speaker 1: I knew the um light and that's when we found it.

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Speaker 1: And that's where it happened, Kathy. After he leaves, you're

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Speaker 1: still washing the dishes. What happens next, Um, a knock

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Speaker 1: on the door. And how much later? Huh? How much later?

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Speaker 1: About It was about eight, like five after eight something

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Speaker 1: like that. It's about twenty thirty five minutes. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And you know, so I knew it was getting a

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Speaker 1: little light. But knowing Chucky, he probably stopped and picked

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Speaker 1: a friend up and they all rode their bikes together.

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Speaker 1: So I said, so she anyway, she knocked on the

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Speaker 1: door and said, I think Chucky is hurt. I can

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Speaker 1: see him laying, you know, in the parking line. I thought,

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Speaker 1: you know, oh my gosh, he's broke his leg. He's

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Speaker 1: hurt his arm. So me, my husband and Greg, you know,

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Speaker 1: we started going up there, and then Pete started running

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Speaker 1: and you had did you have the little brother? Were Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because I remember one time you described to me how

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Speaker 1: you were basically dragging him by the arm. Yeah. And

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Speaker 1: then Pete, because I had him know, we were just

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Speaker 1: walking up there, you know, because I thought I'd see Chuck.

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Speaker 1: He's sitting there just saying, oh, Mom, it's nothing, you know,

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Speaker 1: I just hurt my leg. But um, the closer we

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Speaker 1: got that felt like I was in slow motion and

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Speaker 1: like I couldn't get there, And that's where we found

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Speaker 1: him laying there and he was shot the back of

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Speaker 1: They hit Climb Stories with Nancy Grace February seventeenth, nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty six. The night he died, it was a Monday night.

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Speaker 1: The night he died had before Monday night for us,

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Speaker 1: the night he died, And that's kind of like why

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Speaker 1: my world just fell apart. Chucky had wanted to go

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Speaker 1: to the grocery stores right down the road, right around

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Speaker 1: the corner from where we lived. It was an over

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Speaker 1: in a matter of moments to buy him candy for

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Speaker 1: the next day. There was a group of kids here

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Speaker 1: all the time. One of his friends came to our

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Speaker 1: door and told us that Chucky. It looked like Chucky

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Speaker 1: was hurt, But you never forget this place. God, she's

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Speaker 1: fawn off his bike, he's hurt his leg or something,

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Speaker 1: and he was just laying right here and the clothes

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Speaker 1: here I got. I knew it was so much more

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Speaker 1: than that. I knew the light and that's when we

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Speaker 1: found it. That's where it happened. This little boy with

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Speaker 1: a big smile and his the league outfit. I'm looking

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Speaker 1: at it right now, the cap on it. Who would

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Speaker 1: want to hurt this little boy with me? His mother,

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Speaker 1: Kathy Miller, Kathy, you left off where you felt like

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Speaker 1: you were going in slow motion when you saw he

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Speaker 1: wasn't sitting there saying mom, I hurt my leg. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what did you see? I could see him laying on

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Speaker 1: his stomach, and I could see the blood, and he

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Speaker 1: was so steell, and and I knew I just I

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Speaker 1: knew it, and it just felt like I could get

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Speaker 1: to him fast enough. And then the police were there,

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Speaker 1: and then my husband came up and told me that

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Speaker 1: it was Chucky, and I just didn't believe it. I

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Speaker 1: just didn't believe it was him. I thought maybe somebody

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Speaker 1: had borrowed his bike, you know, and they were just

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Speaker 1: lying to me. But it was him. And when they

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Speaker 1: rolled they thought at first it was a hit and run.

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Speaker 1: And when they rolled him over, the bullet came out

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Speaker 1: the side of his face, so they didn't know it

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Speaker 1: was a He had been shot at close range. What

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Speaker 1: of that haze stands out in your mind? The most

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Speaker 1: cathy like where they outline his body with the chalk

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Speaker 1: that stands out, and the crowd that just the crowds

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Speaker 1: stands out, and everybody pulling me away, not to get

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Speaker 1: close to Chuckie, just pulling me and trying to calm

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Speaker 1: me down as I guess what stands in my mind.

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Speaker 1: But I just knew I couldn't take my eyes office,

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Speaker 1: you know, you know, there's just so much going on,

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Speaker 1: just so much, and then it was it was just

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Speaker 1: something no parents should see. To doctor Bethany Marshall's psychoanist

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Speaker 1: joining us out of la Doctor Bethany, I'm listening to

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Speaker 1: Kathy Miller described what she recalls, and I've asked her

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Speaker 1: several times, and I do the same thing to witnesses,

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Speaker 1: because every time you hear it, there's a tiny difference

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Speaker 1: or maybe a fact or a tidbit you didn't hear

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Speaker 1: the first time, but was striking me right now, Doctor Bethany,

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Speaker 1: is I remember when my fiance was murdered? What stuck

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Speaker 1: out of what I remember? I remember walking across campus

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Speaker 1: and after a statistics exam and stopping halfway at a

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Speaker 1: pay phone and the student co op to call the

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Speaker 1: library where I worked to tell them I was going

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Speaker 1: to be late because the test ran over, and they

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Speaker 1: said call Keith's sister Judy. And I remember trying to

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Speaker 1: call and my hand was like a moth around a

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Speaker 1: light as the elo I can describe it, trying to

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Speaker 1: punch the buttons correctly. And I knew. I knew immediately

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Speaker 1: that Keith was gone. It was over. It's interesting, I

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Speaker 1: remember I told you the story wants, Doctor Bethany. The

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Speaker 1: first carjack murder case I ever tried, that I ever

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Speaker 1: took to a jury. It was a young guy who

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Speaker 1: just walked down in his driveway to get something out

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Speaker 1: of his car, and the purps came by shot him dead,

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Speaker 1: just to get his car. A neighbor ran out and

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Speaker 1: brought a pillow as the victim was dying in the

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Speaker 1: driveway or already dead, and put his head on the pillow.

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Speaker 1: And that fact, not the horrible violence of the fact.

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Speaker 1: It was the pay phone. It was the pillow. For Cathy,

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Speaker 1: it's to chalk outline. What does that mean, Doctor Bethany,

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Speaker 1: Why do we do that? I think we have something

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Speaker 1: called evocative memory, where oh wait a minute, I've never

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Speaker 1: heard this from you. Evocative memory, Okay, go ahead. Evocative

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Speaker 1: memory where a site, a smell, a sound, a feeling,

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Speaker 1: an experience gets paired with the event and then that

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Speaker 1: one that pairing in our mind gets kind of seared

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Speaker 1: into our memory. For instance, whenever you tell me about Keith,

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Speaker 1: your fiance, you tell me a certain sequencing of events.

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Speaker 1: You tell me you were taking a test, that you

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Speaker 1: were slightly late, you had to go to a pay phone,

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Speaker 1: that you had to call Keith's sister. I mean you

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Speaker 1: have paired a certain sequencing of events with that particular

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Speaker 1: time of your life, and that is what we call

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Speaker 1: evocative memory. I think another thing that happens that you're

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Speaker 1: pointing out is that we human beings have to live

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Speaker 1: with an illusion of safety, meaning that how we go

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Speaker 1: about our days is we feel safe. So when Chucky's

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Speaker 1: mom said, sure, go to the store and gets some candy,

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Speaker 1: there was an illusion of safety, and that is a

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Speaker 1: part of good mental health. But when you think of

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Speaker 1: homicide stats, according to one stat one and one hundred

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Speaker 1: and thirty three people will be a victim of homicide

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Speaker 1: and whole households can be victimized. You know, not only

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Speaker 1: with Chucky victimized, but the whole household, by proxy, was victimized.

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Speaker 1: That is not a very safe situation. All of us

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Speaker 1: can be victimized. So her illusion of safety was shattered

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Speaker 1: in a minute, and that fears itself into one's memory, Kathy.

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Speaker 1: And that's why, Kathy, I know you can hear what

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Speaker 1: doctor Bethany's saying. So what did the witnesses say? You

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Speaker 1: said there was a crowd gathered around, Yeah, what happened?

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Speaker 1: I mean, were you even in any shape to say

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Speaker 1: what happened? Though? I wasnot? But um, you know, this

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Speaker 1: crowd had gathered after Chuck he died, so only two

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Speaker 1: people saw him talking to someone in a white car.

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Speaker 1: But these two people, two people were children, and they

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Speaker 1: were in a car driving on the road next to

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Speaker 1: the parking lot. And all they did was say, well,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, I gotta tell you something about children,

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Speaker 1: Kathy Miller did Jim Elliott trial lawyer with Butler Snow

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Speaker 1: butlersnow dot com. Longtime trial lawyer, Jim Elliott. You know,

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Speaker 1: under a lot of jurisdictions law children are treated under

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Speaker 1: the law as quote their words not mine, idiots or lunatics,

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Speaker 1: their words not mine, because it's assumed in many of

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Speaker 1: jurisdictions that children don't know right from wrong and can't

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Speaker 1: tell the truth. I disagree. I have found children to

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Speaker 1: be some of my very best witnesses ever because they

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Speaker 1: don't always have the ability to lie like adults. So

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Speaker 1: in my mind, you know, if you can unlock what

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Speaker 1: they're saying, child witnesses are excellent. Well, they gave us

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Speaker 1: a composite sketch of the person they saw. Did you

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Speaker 1: hear that? They said to their dad, you know, there's Chuck,

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Speaker 1: So they did see him and he was just holding

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Speaker 1: onto his bike leaning talk to someone. Jim Elliott weigh

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Speaker 1: in on child witnesses. Absolutely, I mean they're not they're

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Speaker 1: not as jaded as we are as adults. They don't

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Speaker 1: have they haven't been through situations where they have to

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Speaker 1: make up something or I mean absolutely, I think the

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Speaker 1: propensity for truth is much greater Franklin than a child

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Speaker 1: than it would be in many adults. So bottom line,

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Speaker 1: have they what did they say happened? They just said

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Speaker 1: Chucky was talking and that was there talking to and

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Speaker 1: then someone and white light colored car, a male, A male.

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Speaker 1: I think it was two. I've never been told that

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Speaker 1: for sure, but for some reason I think the detective

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Speaker 1: that was first there said they said there were two

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Speaker 1: people in the bar Clime stories with Nancy Grace. Chuckie's

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Speaker 1: family lived right behind the Bowling Alley on Burns Drive.

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Speaker 1: He'd write his bike to a nearby convenience store all

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Speaker 1: the time to buy candy. But one February night was different.

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Speaker 1: Sometime when in those ensuing minutes, someone heard a loud pop.

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Speaker 1: One witness that I've talked to XU described and just

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Speaker 1: thinking it was a firecracker and kids playing. This is

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Speaker 1: where Chucky's body was found. He lived in the neighborhood

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Speaker 1: just beyond this fence. Post witness this say they saw

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Speaker 1: him talking to someone in a light colored call, but

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Speaker 1: he don't know who. We had a lot of witnesses,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people saw things. They see a vehicle

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Speaker 1: speeding away as they approached. Within the next two minutes,

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Speaker 1: Chucky's found a seas you're hearing our friends at forty

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Speaker 1: one NBCWMGT that Skyler Henry's speaking with me an All

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Speaker 1: Star panel. Kathy Miller, Jim Elliott, Joseph Scott Morgan, doctor

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Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, Cheryl McCollum, and Levi Page to this day,

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Speaker 1: his murder has not been solved. To Levi Page investigative Reporter,

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Speaker 1: Crime online dot com, where you can find this in

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Speaker 1: all other breaking crime and justice news. What do we know, Levi, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: we know that there were witnesses that had witnessed certain

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Speaker 1: elements of this murder. The little girl saw him fall

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Speaker 1: off of his bike alerted his mother. Another witness says

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Speaker 1: that they heard a loud pop that they thought was

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Speaker 1: a firecracker going off, but it was much more sinister.

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Speaker 1: It was not an accident on the bicycle. It was

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Speaker 1: not a firecracker going off. He was shot, And Nancy,

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Speaker 1: this is what is so disturbing. He was shot in

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Speaker 1: the back of the head. It went through the back

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Speaker 1: of his head and left his nose. It servered his

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Speaker 1: brainstem and when he was found, he was found in

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Speaker 1: a pool of blood and he was still gripping the

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Speaker 1: bubblegum that he purchased at the store along with the receipt. So,

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Speaker 1: Kathy Miller, that tells me, this is Chuckie's mom, And

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Speaker 1: believe me, it hurts her to hear these facts, but

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Speaker 1: she's here because she, like me, have not given up.

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Speaker 1: Because I believe that this case may be solved. Kathy Miller.

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Speaker 1: That tells me he made it into the seven to eleven,

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Speaker 1: that he was on his way home. Kathy, what do

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Speaker 1: you hold on tipline four seven eight five four two

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Speaker 1: two zero eight zero four seven eight five four two

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Speaker 1: two zero eight zero, Kathy Miller, what do you think happened?

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Speaker 1: I've always thought that either one or two white males

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Speaker 1: tried to lure him into that car. That's always what

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Speaker 1: I thought, because Chucky had no enemies. I mean, he

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Speaker 1: wasn't a bad kid. I mean he was good and

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Speaker 1: like everyone loved him. And I think someone wanted him

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Speaker 1: in that car and he wouldn't get in it, and

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Speaker 1: they and I think they knew that he knew them

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Speaker 1: and was check. He probably said, you know, I'm going

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Speaker 1: on in Mimi film my mom or my dad, and

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Speaker 1: they didn't want him to tell, and they shut him up.

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Speaker 1: Was his bike that he was riding facing back towards

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Speaker 1: the seven to eleven or was he coming home? He

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Speaker 1: was coming home and it was it was like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he was coming home, but it was facing like sideways,

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Speaker 1: not like because he was standing next to it, so

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Speaker 1: he turned to get on it, and then you know

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Speaker 1: he fell and then it just fell right, Nancy to him,

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Speaker 1: joining me. Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood

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Speaker 1: Beneath My Feet on Amazon Death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, you know years have passed, She's lived with

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Speaker 1: this unsolved burden all this time. This case can be reconstructed,

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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan help me out. Yeah, absolutely it can, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: And this is why these these bits of information that

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Speaker 1: are coming into us are critical. What I'm really curious

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Speaker 1: about is we have Chucky on the ground adjacent to

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Speaker 1: his bicycle. We have this information about the car. I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm very curious. And what's a big tell here is

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Speaker 1: the idea that, um, there is a relationship, a physical relationship,

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Speaker 1: and I mean like attitude in between Chucky and the shooter. Uh,

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Speaker 1: that could tell us a lot. Was he Uh? Was

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Speaker 1: he above or below Chucky when he shot? We want

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Speaker 1: to know about right, right, right he was in the cars,

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Speaker 1: I recall us and that right, Kathy, yes, no, right right,

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Speaker 1: he was sitting. They said the way the bullet entered,

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Speaker 1: it didn't um, it had to go the bullet had

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Speaker 1: to go up because it entered, you know, the back

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Speaker 1: of his name entered, the back of his head came

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Speaker 1: out through the nose area, So that that means that

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Speaker 1: we haven't interaction. We can validate what they're saying about

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Speaker 1: the interaction between Chucky and this individual in the car

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Speaker 1: of the individual never got out of the car, so

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Speaker 1: they fired literally from below to above. And this is key.

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Speaker 1: Something had happened so that Chucky changed his physical attitude

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Speaker 1: where he is moving away and in that instantaneous can

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Speaker 1: you just talk like regular people just for a moment

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Speaker 1: when you say change his physical attitude. That's what I

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Speaker 1: was trying to ask earlier Joe Scott, because I think

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Speaker 1: he was leaving the seven to eleven going towards the street.

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Speaker 1: He was confronted by one or two white males in

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Speaker 1: this vehicle I think, to get into his car. Did

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Speaker 1: he turn around, Joe Scott to go back to safety

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Speaker 1: to the seven to eleven? Did he move the angle

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Speaker 1: of the bike? What are you saying he changed his

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Speaker 1: physical attitude? Well, when I say physical attitude, what I

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Speaker 1: mean is that he's literally turning his entire body and

426
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 1: the bike so that as as his mama was saying,

427
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: he is trying to get back home. He's headed in

428
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 1: that direction. He's not going to win the store. Something

429
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: has occurred where he wants to put distance between himself

430
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,640
Speaker 1: and the vehicle. He wants to go to the safety

431
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 1: of home. And it was at that moment time that

432
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,439
Speaker 1: this person in the vehicle felt so comfortable in a

433
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 1: public environment that they would fire around out of their

434
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: vehicle and strike Chucky at that moment time. Now we

435
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: have a projectile, we have the bullet itself. According to

436
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 1: what I'm hearing, that's key. And here what was the caliber?

437
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 1: Do you know, Joscott? I do not know what the

438
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: caliber is, and I was really good. Do you know, Kathy?

439
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: Do you know the caliber? Who found the bullet? Okay? Well,

440
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 1: if that is the case, there could be fragments of

441
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 1: the bullet that were left behind. My curiosity has peaked

442
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 1: here because I want to know if those were recovered

443
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: at autopsy. One more big piece is that if this

444
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 1: was a semi automatic handgun and the individual stuck the

445
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: weapon outside of the vehicle, there is a high problem

446
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 1: ability that it would have echecked it out onto the

447
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: ground that is spent casing. Now, if it's a revolver.

448
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 1: It's not going to be there. They would have taken

449
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: that with them when they left with the weapon. Take

450
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at forty one NBC WMGT

451
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: Skyler Henry. The call first came in as a hidden run.

452
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: It was soon determined that he was actually died as

453
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 1: a ult of a single gunshot one and I'll say

454
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: some single gunshot one through the head. But who would

455
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 1: shoot a thirteen year old boy. We don't expect our

456
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: children to be shot and killed in House and County

457
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 1: in this matter. People during that time quit letting the

458
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: kids ride their wives. They quit letting them go up

459
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: the street on the box. Captain John Holland, like the

460
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 1: House and County Sheriff's office, says he an investigators interviewed

461
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: dozens of people trying to find that answer. They turned

462
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 1: the neighborhood inside out. They campased the neighborhood. I think

463
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: they set up road chicks during that time just to

464
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: find people that had seen things. And even to this day,

465
00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 1: we do get calls with people that either have some

466
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 1: information or have an idea about who may have been involved.

467
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: There is still no suspect. It's a tough conversation. For Holland,

468
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: especially when he talks to Chuckie's mother, she still has

469
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 1: some hope that one day she'll get some resolution, but

470
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 1: it's difficult. Take a listen to what Captain John Holland says.

471
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 1: There are people in this community that when's the music

472
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 1: at that time, that no will happen to cut them

473
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: all and we'll have information that will lead to the

474
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: resolutions escape. Hi, guys, Nancy Grace here, we have all

475
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,479
Speaker 1: worked so hard to bring to you, Don't Be a

476
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 1: Victim Fighting back against America's crime Wave, a brand new book.

477
00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 1: After interviewing literally hundreds of crime victims and police, we

478
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 1: put our knowledge into Don't Be a Victim. You could

479
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: pre order now go to Crime online dot Com. Pre

480
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: order now and know that portions of our proceeds goes

481
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 1: to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Crime

482
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace, I am a brief mother first

483
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 1: and foremost, I am a brief parent, and I am

484
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 1: a parent of a murdered child. Was he and I

485
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 1: was he scared? I guess that's that's something that's still

486
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 1: you know, was he scared that night? And you know

487
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 1: I wasn't there and was he scared and did he

488
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 1: know what was going to happen. The initial thought of

489
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: myself and the police department was that it was a

490
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: hit one. And when they turned Chucky over they found

491
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 1: that it was a gunshot to the head. People say, well,

492
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 1: maybe it was just a stray bullet. Well, no, not

493
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 1: to hit him. Somebody knew what they were doing, you know,

494
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 1: they didn't want to hurt him. We walked from down

495
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: there and came up here and then he was laid

496
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 1: right there and that's where we found him. They pushed

497
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 1: me over to this fence and I had to stand

498
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 1: there and then it was just it was out of control.

499
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: It was just mayhem. And that's sort of like when

500
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: I went away mentally. I guess you're hearing the voice

501
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 1: of Kathy Miller speaking to me. Kathy, the mom of

502
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 1: Chucky Mack gunned down in the parking lot at a

503
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 1: seven to eleven. This little boy just going to get

504
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: candy when he was shot by either one or two

505
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 1: white males from inside their car. He had the receipt

506
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: in the candy in his hand and was heading home

507
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: to mom. Kathy Miller, you have told me that people

508
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: seemingly blame you that somehow they're not the kind of

509
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: person this happens too, but you are. Would you recount

510
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 1: that story for me? Yeah? Yes. I worked at a

511
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 1: doctor's office and one of the patients has seems Chucky's

512
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: picture and asked me, you know, are you Chuck's mom?

513
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 1: And I said yes, I am. And you know, she

514
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: was just saying how awful it was Howie was murdered.

515
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: But she said, you know, when parents don't take care

516
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: of their children, God caused them home. And I was

517
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: just devastated because, like down deep in my heart, that

518
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: was a fear, like I should have been watching him.

519
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: I shouldn't have let him go. You know, this is

520
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: all my fault was. She hit on that, and I

521
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: was hysterical, but she meant it if I had just

522
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 1: been watching him, God calls children home. What did you

523
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: do When she said that, I've just excused myself from

524
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 1: my office and ran to my doctor and I was hysterical, crying.

525
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 1: I couldn't catch my breath because she said everything that

526
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:30,839
Speaker 1: I believed for so long and made it all come

527
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 1: back like I knew I was right. I knew it

528
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,319
Speaker 1: was my fault. I'm the one that should have said no,

529
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: and I just believed it, Doctor Bethany Marshall, What is

530
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,240
Speaker 1: wrong with people? Why would anybody say that to Kathy?

531
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 1: She's already lived through the death of her son, the

532
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 1: shock of seeing his body and a parking lot bleeding

533
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 1: from the head, being pulled back from the scene. He

534
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 1: was only gone, you know, less than a few minutes.

535
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 1: And then yeah, somebody approached her like that, NANCYA could

536
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 1: be that the idea of a mother losing a son

537
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 1: of murder, of this being a crime of opportunity, that

538
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: this patient in this doctor's office, perhaps she has her

539
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 1: own children, that this reality is so undigestible, so horrible,

540
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: that she took a flight into a very trite, shallow

541
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,760
Speaker 1: idea to bind her own anxiety about it. In other words,

542
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 1: it's easier to call on a silly, stupid, superficial idea

543
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 1: than to look a grieving weather in the eye and say,

544
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 1: this must be devastating for you. People do it all

545
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 1: the time, they retreat, you know, they really do. And

546
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, I know you're not a psychoanalyst like doctor

547
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall out there on Rodeo's drive, but you and

548
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: I have doubt was so many violent crime victims. And

549
00:35:55,760 --> 00:36:00,720
Speaker 1: I really think that people say these her full things

550
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:05,760
Speaker 1: like they said to Kathy, because it makes them feel safer.

551
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,280
Speaker 1: Like you know, Cheryl, I've been working or working or working,

552
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: I'm a new book, don't be a victim. And people

553
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,399
Speaker 1: always say, oh, well, that wouldn't happen to me, because

554
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 1: I would never go jogging at night, Well I have.

555
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 1: Or I would never park in a parking deck in

556
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 1: a distant spot, Well we all do it. Or I

557
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 1: would never this, or I would never that. Because it

558
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 1: makes you you feel like it won't happen to you

559
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: and you can get through your day a heck of

560
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 1: a lot better that way. I think it's absolutely a

561
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 1: way to protect yourself. That's all it can be. I

562
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 1: don't think that woman would be in as evil as

563
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 1: she came up, well I do. I think she's a hateful,

564
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 1: hateful minions straight from Hell. That's what I think. But

565
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,240
Speaker 1: that's just me, you know. I mean, why does Kathy

566
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,439
Speaker 1: need more pain heaped on her? I do? I think

567
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: she was protecting herself. But I tell you to look

568
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 1: at this case. The things that stick out to me

569
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,760
Speaker 1: are the fact that Chucky was leaving, he was trying

570
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: to get away, and the killer never even got out

571
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: of his car. This was close range and to me,

572
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,240
Speaker 1: the base of the neck, through the nose, that angle,

573
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 1: that was a kill shot. This person did not aim

574
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: at his back, towards his lungs or his heart. The

575
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 1: larger target. They picked, the smaller target that was absolutely

576
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:35,720
Speaker 1: meant to kill him. On a little boy, a little

577
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 1: boy with a bag of candy and a receipt, riding

578
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 1: his bike. I really believe, Cheryl, that the killer knew Chucky.

579
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 1: I have no doubt in my mind, because, hey, Jim Elliott,

580
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 1: this is your backyard. Jim Elliott, veteran trial lawyer, joining

581
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 1: me from the area. You can find him at butlersnow

582
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 1: dot com. Jim L. Elliot. It's a very low crime

583
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 1: rate in that area when Chucky was shot, very low

584
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 1: crime rate. There was nothing at all wrong with letting

585
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 1: him go. The three blocks is the crow flies if

586
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 1: that much to get some candy in daylight, that's a

587
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:22,879
Speaker 1: very common practice. It was a small town. I mean,

588
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,839
Speaker 1: the chances of some random violent act like this were

589
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 1: incredibly small, especially at that time. You know what you're

590
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 1: making me think of right now? The murders at Delphi

591
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 1: of Liberty and Abigail up on that trestle bridge. That

592
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:41,360
Speaker 1: is a very small town. What I'm saying, Jim Elliott,

593
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: the pool of suspects is very small. It's got to

594
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 1: be definitely very small. You know. Then there was another

595
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 1: interesting aspect of this matter, and Miss Miller can confirmed this.

596
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: The incident happened right on the right outside of the

597
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: city limits, and so there was some confusion initially about

598
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 1: which law enforcement agents see had jurisdiction. Yeah, and you know,

599
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 1: unfortunately a few a very short delay like that can

600
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 1: can create problems that can never be resolved, such as, Hey,

601
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 1: I'm a j D I'm not a mystic. What are you?

602
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 1: What are you trying to tell me? I'm just saying,

603
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 1: you know, who's going to take charge of the investigation?

604
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 1: This is my case? No, this is my case. What

605
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,840
Speaker 1: do I care who's running the investigation? You said it

606
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 1: could hurt the investigation. How did that pause, that tiny delay,

607
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 1: How did that hurt the investigation. I'm not saying it

608
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 1: did hurt the investigation. I just think there's a chance

609
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,879
Speaker 1: that happened because again, people couldn't react as quickly. Maybe

610
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 1: there could have been an opportunity to find that vehicle

611
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:43,760
Speaker 1: much more quickly. Ah, yes, exactly the vehicle, Jim Elliott.

612
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 1: What do we know about in the vehicle if anything?

613
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 1: From people say why? Some people say light colored? You know,

614
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 1: unfortunately not very much. I don't think Kathy Miller wasn't

615
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 1: there a little more? Was it a four door vehicle? American?

616
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 1: May light color? What more do we know? Did have

617
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: a landown roof? What do we know about the vehicle

618
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: of anything? That's it? Oh? It was just a light

619
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 1: colored car. And mister Elliott is right because on my

620
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:18,840
Speaker 1: side of the street was that county. Across the street

621
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 1: was the city blue line. Yes, and and there have

622
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:31,319
Speaker 1: been odds about, like you know, who's doing what and

623
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 1: who's doing what? But did that really delay the investigation?

624
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 1: Do you think it did? I don't think it did,

625
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 1: But you know, I don't. I don't know. I don't

626
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:46,799
Speaker 1: think it did. Me always knew there was Of all

627
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:53,280
Speaker 1: the things to remember, why does that shalk outline stick

628
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 1: in your head? I don't know, but I don't. I

629
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 1: don't know. But it's just as clear, just as clear

630
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:09,839
Speaker 1: as anything. Can you remember the funeral or the memorial? Um?

631
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 1: I can remember parts of it because when I was

632
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 1: going into the funeral home, there was this voice that

633
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 1: talked to me. It was me, but you know, it

634
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 1: was just I was the only one that could hear it,

635
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 1: and it just said, just remember, that's not him. He's

636
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 1: in Mississippi with his grandparents, so just go in and

637
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 1: sit down. And it was this sounds crazy, but this

638
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 1: voice did talk to me, and it would tell me

639
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:48,479
Speaker 1: to do certain things, like I know what I hate

640
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 1: because they already look at me funny because I'm a

641
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 1: parent of a murdered child, Like I've already done something wrong,

642
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:03,399
Speaker 1: you know, because your child was murdered. What else did

643
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 1: do you recall about that voice? About what the voice,

644
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 1: the voice you heard them, the voice that talks. Yeah.

645
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 1: And then it told me that because i'd go to

646
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 1: after he died, I'd go to his junior high school

647
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,320
Speaker 1: and wait to pick him up for school from school,

648
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 1: and the voice, after we had waited there forever and

649
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,840
Speaker 1: the school was all empty, the voice would say, oh,

650
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 1: he probably already rode his bike home. He's already at home.

651
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 1: So I would leave and go home. Kathy, after Chucky

652
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: was shot, you would go to the school to pick

653
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 1: him up Uh huh, because I'd go first and pick

654
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 1: up Greg and then I'd go pick up Chuck. I

655
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 1: didn't know that. I just kept Yeah, I'm just something

656
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 1: I remembered. I kept on doing it until I just

657
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:05,320
Speaker 1: one day I just stopped. Would you share with everyone

658
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 1: what you told me about the pictures? What happened to

659
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 1: the pictures when you finally moved from that house that

660
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: you had with Jackie? Right? Um, Yeah, we've moved quite

661
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 1: soon afterwards, and we got a new house just because

662
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 1: i'd have to pass that every day. Yeah, and I

663
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:38,799
Speaker 1: have his room. I just mentally I didn't think I

664
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 1: could do it, and so we bought a house and

665
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:49,319
Speaker 1: you know, we're hanging things and hanging his pictures and

666
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 1: you know, just doing that, and then all of his

667
00:43:52,880 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 1: pictures fell. They all fell at the same time in

668
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 1: one room now, like there was in the living room,

669
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 1: my bedroom, in the hallway, you were hanging pictures and

670
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 1: then all at once, all the pictures of Chucky crashed

671
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:23,840
Speaker 1: to the floor. I know it sounds crazy, It doesn't

672
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 1: sound crazy to me. Yeah, you'd be probably about only

673
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:33,839
Speaker 1: one that understands that. Everybody else just just looks at me.

674
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 1: So I'll just put it out there, and I've taken

675
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 1: a lot of heat for this in the media industry.

676
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 1: I believe. I believe there is a life after death,

677
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:52,479
Speaker 1: and I pray to God that I meet Chucky. There

678
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,919
Speaker 1: with me is Kathy Miller, Chucky's mother. This is an

679
00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 1: ongoing investigation. The tip line four seven eight five four

680
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 1: two two zero eight zero. It's been thirty four years. Nancy,

681
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:13,919
Speaker 1: can you believe that? No? I can't. I just I mean,

682
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,879
Speaker 1: and you know, Nancy, sometimes I ask myself, you know,

683
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:21,439
Speaker 1: how what how long do I do this? I mean,

684
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 1: I know, how long until you can't? Until you can't?

685
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 1: But it seems like sometimes you just want to run

686
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 1: away from it, but there's nowhere to go. You know.

687
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 1: It's just it's it's with me constantly, and you know,

688
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 1: you look at people and you think, I wonder, you know,

689
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:45,800
Speaker 1: does he look kind of look like that person? And

690
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:52,760
Speaker 1: you know, it's just in every bit of happiness, there's

691
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 1: always that there that I think of, and then you think,

692
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 1: you know, why why are you laughing? And you know

693
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:07,279
Speaker 1: you had a child night and I just don't know it.

694
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 1: They say time heals, but it might heal, but it

695
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 1: doesn't take away the herd. Our prayers go on for

696
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 1: Chuckie's mother Kathy and her family. There's still a chance

697
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:25,239
Speaker 1: at justice for seven eight five two two zero eight

698
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 1: zero Nancy Grace Crime Story, signing off goodbye friend,