1
00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:09,440
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, breaking news Savannah Guthrie's mother,

2
00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,680
Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie missing, day seventeen.

3
00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:18,280
Speaker 2: Is she alive? Is she dead? Is she suffering? Where

4
00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:19,040
Speaker 2: is she?

5
00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:22,599
Speaker 3: Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. A

6
00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:25,120
Speaker 3: lot happening in the search for Nancy Guthrie. I'm going

7
00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:27,720
Speaker 3: to go straight out to a special guest joining us.

8
00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,880
Speaker 3: Andrew Black is with us, former special Agent in charge

9
00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:34,440
Speaker 3: of the Tucson Office.

10
00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,280
Speaker 2: Of the FBI. Let that sink him.

11
00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:43,760
Speaker 3: Former FBI Agent in charge of the Tucson FBI Division,

12
00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:48,880
Speaker 3: twenty seven years with the FBI, Former Chicago felony prosecutor,

13
00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:54,120
Speaker 3: never a lack of business in Chicago. Currently Chief of

14
00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:59,360
Speaker 3: the University of Hawaii Department of Public Safety. Andrew Black,

15
00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,520
Speaker 3: thank you for being with us. I'm sure you're going

16
00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,880
Speaker 3: to put this in more flowery terms than myself. But

17
00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:14,880
Speaker 3: did Nanos go rogue again and issue another statement without

18
00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:19,399
Speaker 3: consulting with the FBI. I'm not saying getting their permission,

19
00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:20,959
Speaker 3: I'm saying consulting with.

20
00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,880
Speaker 4: You know, the press release in what out yesterday regarding

21
00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:30,320
Speaker 4: the exonerating the Guthrie family that was put out unilaterally

22
00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,920
Speaker 4: without input from the FBI. If you read the language,

23
00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:39,520
Speaker 4: it's oddly written, begging the media to honor their profession

24
00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:44,920
Speaker 4: and begging them to report with compassion and professionalism. That's

25
00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:48,720
Speaker 4: an oddly worded press release. What I'd like to see

26
00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:53,360
Speaker 4: is Sheriff Nanos deferring to the FBI for all communication

27
00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:57,880
Speaker 4: going forward on this case. The FBI are very professional

28
00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:01,280
Speaker 4: in their communication. They're well ted in dealing with the

29
00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:05,640
Speaker 4: media and public and messaging coherently. The public needs to

30
00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:09,560
Speaker 4: hear from the investigators on a regular basis. It should

31
00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:12,520
Speaker 4: be done through the FBI to give confidence that the

32
00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:16,000
Speaker 4: hardworking agents and personalel the Sheriff's Department are doing everything

33
00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:18,120
Speaker 4: they can to try to locate Nancy Guthrie.

34
00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:22,400
Speaker 3: I was very distressed Andrew Black when I heard, I'm

35
00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:29,720
Speaker 3: sure another renegade press comment when Nano's blurted out it

36
00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,040
Speaker 3: could take a year to find her. Yes, okay, she

37
00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:35,600
Speaker 3: could be dead in a year. She's eighty four.

38
00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,639
Speaker 5: That's not Why would he blurt that out. She could

39
00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:40,960
Speaker 5: be found tomorrow, she could be found tonight.

40
00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:43,760
Speaker 2: Why would he say that. It was like a kick

41
00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:44,400
Speaker 2: to the teeth.

42
00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's demoralizing for people who are on the ground

43
00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:49,680
Speaker 4: even volunteers who are looking for her. So this is

44
00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:52,760
Speaker 4: something I think that demonstrates a lack of experience in

45
00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:56,880
Speaker 4: training and handling big matters like this. The FBI executives

46
00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:00,880
Speaker 4: are well trained. They go through media training, the ten

47
00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:04,520
Speaker 4: conferences with members of the media, and they know how

48
00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,040
Speaker 4: to message properly. Those were some awkward statements.

49
00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:12,840
Speaker 3: The reward is now up to two hundred thousand dollars

50
00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:17,359
Speaker 3: in exchange for information leading to Nancy Guthrie. A lot

51
00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:19,799
Speaker 3: has happened in the past hours. Straight out to Dave

52
00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,840
Speaker 3: Matt Crime Stories investigative reporter, Dave, what's happening right now?

53
00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:27,000
Speaker 6: You mentioned the reward money going up. Michael Huppy, an

54
00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:31,200
Speaker 6: attorney in Milwaukee who actually heads up Milwaukee crime Stoppers.

55
00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:33,519
Speaker 6: He's the one that stepped up to add one hundred

56
00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:37,480
Speaker 6: thousand dollars to the reward. That's for starters of all.

57
00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:40,480
Speaker 6: You know the DNA that we've been waiting for results

58
00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:45,120
Speaker 6: back from the lab in Florida on the we're talking

59
00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:46,880
Speaker 6: about the glove that was found about a mile and

60
00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:51,320
Speaker 6: a half from Nancy Guthrie's home. They did get that

61
00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:56,320
Speaker 6: DNA into Cotis and there were no hits on the

62
00:03:56,400 --> 00:04:01,200
Speaker 6: DNA found on the glove. They still they being law enforcement,

63
00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:05,000
Speaker 6: still waiting on the DNA that was found inside Nancy

64
00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,560
Speaker 6: Guthrie's home. We don't have status on that one yet.

65
00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:11,480
Speaker 6: But the male DNA found on the glove did not

66
00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,560
Speaker 6: have a hit when it was run through cotis right now.

67
00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:19,000
Speaker 3: Okay, hold on just a moment, Dave mac regarding the glove,

68
00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:21,840
Speaker 3: we are also learning that the glove that had been

69
00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,240
Speaker 3: pictured is not the glove that was tested.

70
00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:30,440
Speaker 6: Explain, well, you know the the glove that was pictured,

71
00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:34,000
Speaker 6: it was from the New York Post, and you know, Nancy,

72
00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,400
Speaker 6: a lot of people people jump to conks based on

73
00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:42,039
Speaker 6: what we see and what other reporters say, and none

74
00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,279
Speaker 6: of it is official. It just gets picked up that way,

75
00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:48,640
Speaker 6: and sometimes the news runs with a story without having

76
00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:49,880
Speaker 6: firm footing underneath.

77
00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:56,720
Speaker 3: Hold on just a moment before you back door trashing

78
00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,640
Speaker 3: the New York Post. That was a photo of a

79
00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:04,920
Speaker 3: glove found. That doesn't mean that it was the glove

80
00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,360
Speaker 3: that was sent to be tested. So there's a subtle

81
00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:12,160
Speaker 3: bit important distinction right there. Okay, I want to go

82
00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,560
Speaker 3: to what you just said that they did retrieve mail

83
00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:19,640
Speaker 3: DNA from the glove that was sent for testing and

84
00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,000
Speaker 3: they did not get a hit on CODIS.

85
00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:25,040
Speaker 2: All is not lost.

86
00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:29,159
Speaker 3: Tammy Balor joining US DNA crime scene consultant, crime Scene

87
00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:35,839
Speaker 3: Investigation reconstructionists, former DNA criminalist d n A criminalist for

88
00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:40,400
Speaker 3: San Diego's Police Department Crime Lab. Tammy, we may not

89
00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:45,960
Speaker 3: have gotten a direct hit on CODIS, but there's so

90
00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:47,960
Speaker 3: much more to be done explained.

91
00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,080
Speaker 7: We definitely checked the box, so that's the first thing

92
00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:53,520
Speaker 7: that needed to be done. Maybe you get lucky that

93
00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,240
Speaker 7: it's somebody in the national database and now you work

94
00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,240
Speaker 7: from there, so you're going to take more or of

95
00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:03,960
Speaker 7: the local state approach. It sounds like the state lab

96
00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:07,920
Speaker 7: is now going to be retesting that glove. There's still

97
00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:13,159
Speaker 7: additional items that are being analyzed by DNA Labs International

98
00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:17,360
Speaker 7: in Florida. They're doing that in record timing. I am

99
00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,640
Speaker 7: imagining there's going to be mixtures they have to deal with,

100
00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,560
Speaker 7: and so getting that good, clean data back out there

101
00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:28,400
Speaker 7: for additional comparisons and database searches is going to be

102
00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:29,800
Speaker 7: pretty much paramount.

103
00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,440
Speaker 3: Question Why is the same DNA being tested in the

104
00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:33,840
Speaker 3: Arizona labs.

105
00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:38,520
Speaker 7: Well now because they Florida lab and also with the

106
00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,240
Speaker 7: FBI laboratory. They would not have been able to go

107
00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:47,280
Speaker 7: into a state CODIS database and enter the data. They

108
00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:50,480
Speaker 7: can only get to the national level. So now they've

109
00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:55,400
Speaker 7: got to get that state lab to be able to

110
00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:58,760
Speaker 7: test the data, get that into the code database for

111
00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,680
Speaker 7: the state level, and then they can also pursue things

112
00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:07,560
Speaker 7: like familial testing, which you mentioned yesterday. So it's a

113
00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,840
Speaker 7: multi pronged approach. And I think everything is happening in

114
00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,760
Speaker 7: a pretty good real time as far as the DNA

115
00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,640
Speaker 7: world goes, because it definitely takes longer than I think

116
00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,680
Speaker 7: most people think, but they're cranking that out in record time.

117
00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:25,600
Speaker 3: Tammy Ballad, are you telling me that when DNA Labs

118
00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:31,600
Speaker 3: International in Florida entered the DNA intokotis, the national database,

119
00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:36,320
Speaker 3: it would not hit on Arizona.

120
00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:43,160
Speaker 7: Defendants, It would not hit on suspects that have been

121
00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:48,920
Speaker 7: entered into a state lab and also other profiles that

122
00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,560
Speaker 7: potentially didn't make the cut or reach that threshold that

123
00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,520
Speaker 7: you need so desperately to get into a national search.

124
00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,560
Speaker 7: So there's a lot more restrictions at the national level. Rightfully,

125
00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:03,040
Speaker 7: So because you have so many samples, you want to

126
00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:06,440
Speaker 7: make sure that once you identify somebody. You have a

127
00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:11,080
Speaker 7: very good, solid hit and database association, so they know

128
00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:14,840
Speaker 7: they could not enter it into there. But that's again

129
00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:17,960
Speaker 7: a risk to take to get that expedited into that

130
00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,800
Speaker 7: national search. And then now it's triaging and going to

131
00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:23,920
Speaker 7: the second tier, and now you've got to get to

132
00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,080
Speaker 7: a state level and work additional evidence.

133
00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,520
Speaker 3: If you think, okay, I still don't understand your answer,

134
00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:30,640
Speaker 3: Tammy Ballard.

135
00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,800
Speaker 5: My question is that if you are convicted of.

136
00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:38,800
Speaker 3: A felony in Arizona, you're telling me your DNA is

137
00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:39,840
Speaker 3: not in CODIS.

138
00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,520
Speaker 7: No, it's not that it's not in CODIS. It's just

139
00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:50,120
Speaker 7: that the national database has certain offenders and convicted offenders.

140
00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:57,400
Speaker 7: But also if Arizona has additional suspect reference samples that

141
00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:01,080
Speaker 7: are not in the national database, there's more that can

142
00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:05,200
Speaker 7: be done. You also cannot do familial testing at the

143
00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:09,560
Speaker 7: or comparisons at the national level, so you can only

144
00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:11,679
Speaker 7: do that at the state level and have to have

145
00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:15,880
Speaker 7: that state lab involved in that process if you do

146
00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:20,600
Speaker 7: want to attempt familial testing prior to something like genealogy testing.

147
00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:29,479
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

148
00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,520
Speaker 3: To Andrew black joining US former Special Agent in charge

149
00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:41,599
Speaker 3: of the Tucson FBI office and Arizona.

150
00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,320
Speaker 2: Okay, does this make sense to you? So far?

151
00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:45,559
Speaker 8: It does?

152
00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:47,840
Speaker 4: But all, like you said, all is not lost. There

153
00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:51,280
Speaker 4: are public databases where people have freely submitted to their

154
00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,680
Speaker 4: DNA as part of their trying to identify their family tree,

155
00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:59,920
Speaker 4: their genealogy. There's also private databases that the FBI can

156
00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,400
Speaker 4: tap into. They'll need legal process to do that though,

157
00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:08,040
Speaker 4: but that DNA profile that was developed, they can compare

158
00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:11,720
Speaker 4: it against somebody who's closely related and if that happens,

159
00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:14,959
Speaker 4: we really narrow down the field of the individual who

160
00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:16,079
Speaker 4: would be wearing that club.

161
00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:17,560
Speaker 2: We are also learning.

162
00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,600
Speaker 3: Scott Iiker joining US digital forensics expert, founding member of

163
00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:27,600
Speaker 3: the FBI Cellular Analysis Survey Team, also former cop homicide

164
00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:33,719
Speaker 3: detective with the Norfolk, Virginia PD, now at pc A

165
00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:38,280
Speaker 3: Experts dot com. That's Precision Cellularanalysis dot com.

166
00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:39,520
Speaker 2: Scott, thank you for being with us.

167
00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,640
Speaker 3: I want to talk to you about Bluefly, which is

168
00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:48,960
Speaker 3: a highly technical bluetooth identify or explain what it is

169
00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:50,160
Speaker 3: and how it's being used.

170
00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:55,199
Speaker 9: So Bluefly is basically a Bluetooth scanner. It's scanning the

171
00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:59,720
Speaker 9: area to pick up Bluetooth signals. Now our phones actually

172
00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,520
Speaker 9: do that. When you look into try to set up

173
00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:05,360
Speaker 9: your AirPods to your phone, your phone is actually scanning

174
00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,080
Speaker 9: all the Bluetooth signals in that area to try to

175
00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:12,840
Speaker 9: connect to your earbuds. But this is a bigger and

176
00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:17,400
Speaker 9: more powerful device that allows it to bring signals in

177
00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:21,040
Speaker 9: from further away. Again, we still have the problem that

178
00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:25,640
Speaker 9: Nancy Guthrie's pacemaker probably doesn't transmit very far because it

179
00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:29,680
Speaker 9: was only used to connect to her phone. So we

180
00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,880
Speaker 9: do have to use either ground or low flying aircraft

181
00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:39,000
Speaker 9: to try to connect with that pacemaker of Nancy Guthries.

182
00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:43,080
Speaker 9: And I'm sure they're continually doing that searching, not just

183
00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:45,600
Speaker 9: around the house, but in other areas of interest.

184
00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:48,439
Speaker 3: What you were just seeing the videos from our friends

185
00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:52,720
Speaker 3: at blue Fly YouTube to Dave mac isn't it true

186
00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:59,160
Speaker 3: that the range is now over two football fields or

187
00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,520
Speaker 3: is it three? No, it's football fields that this blue

188
00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,120
Speaker 3: Fly technology can pick up.

189
00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:07,559
Speaker 6: They've developed this blue Fly technology Nancy, that it goes

190
00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,520
Speaker 6: six hundred and sixty to eight hundred feet, so yes,

191
00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,640
Speaker 6: you're talking two and a half football fields away. It

192
00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:18,360
Speaker 6: can pick up the Bluetooth signal instead of the twenty

193
00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:20,360
Speaker 6: feet that we were talking about at the very beginning

194
00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,600
Speaker 6: where the pacemaker would hook up with her Apple Watch.

195
00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,720
Speaker 6: Well now we're talking a couple of football fields away

196
00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,920
Speaker 6: and this thinking and find it, which is why they've

197
00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,040
Speaker 6: been working on this since four days out, trying to

198
00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,239
Speaker 6: get anything they can on the pacemaker from Nancy Guthrie.

199
00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:42,760
Speaker 3: Now we know, Scott Iiker, that a pacemaker cannot be identified,

200
00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,880
Speaker 3: cannot be located, it does not have a GPS signal

201
00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:46,920
Speaker 3: that is emitted.

202
00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:49,240
Speaker 2: But this could work.

203
00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:53,400
Speaker 3: And at first they had a sniffer, a signal sniffer

204
00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:57,200
Speaker 3: attached to a helicopter. Now it's been moved to low

205
00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:01,559
Speaker 3: flying drones and they've been going all through the neighborhood

206
00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:03,720
Speaker 3: where Nancy Guthrie lived and beyond.

207
00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:06,360
Speaker 2: Why the switch, Well, we.

208
00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,640
Speaker 9: Want to get more specific and as you said, the

209
00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:13,199
Speaker 9: signal is not very strong from her pacemaker. There's no GPS.

210
00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:17,480
Speaker 9: Hopefully it'll run for as you mentioned previous, to show,

211
00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:21,040
Speaker 9: you know, seven to ten years, it'd be great. So

212
00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:25,600
Speaker 9: using us a lower flying aircraft to kind of help

213
00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:29,040
Speaker 9: us pinpoint if we do capture that signal. You got

214
00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,640
Speaker 9: to remember they're capturing probably thousands every second and they

215
00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:36,800
Speaker 9: have to weed out all the noise and concentrate on

216
00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:39,679
Speaker 9: just the one that matches the MAC address for her pacemaker.

217
00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:44,440
Speaker 3: So is that possible, Scott Iiker, that you when you're

218
00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:49,959
Speaker 3: using the signal sniffer, that you filter out everything except

219
00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,120
Speaker 3: pacemakers or Nancy Guthrie's pacemaker.

220
00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,680
Speaker 9: Yes, So from what I understand, the pacemaker has a

221
00:13:57,679 --> 00:13:59,920
Speaker 9: MAC address, just like a computer or anything like else,

222
00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,400
Speaker 9: anything else that has bluetooth. So that MAC address is

223
00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:08,400
Speaker 9: specific for her pacemaker, and they're scanning and capturing all

224
00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,600
Speaker 9: the Bluetooth devices in that area and it'll filter out

225
00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,840
Speaker 9: everything else except for hers, and once it matches hers,

226
00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:16,760
Speaker 9: then you get to be able to track it to

227
00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:17,920
Speaker 9: a specific location.

228
00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:20,840
Speaker 3: Could you explain what you mean when you say Nancy

229
00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:22,680
Speaker 3: Guthrie's pacemaker has a MAC address.

230
00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:27,160
Speaker 9: Well, MAC address is an identifier for that device. It's

231
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,680
Speaker 9: very specific, it's unique to that device, and no other

232
00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,840
Speaker 9: device will have that. So it's helping us to identify

233
00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:39,200
Speaker 9: that pacemaker if we can get close enough to it.

234
00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,960
Speaker 3: It's like the VIN on a car, the VN number.

235
00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:46,600
Speaker 3: Only one car has that ven number, and it's very

236
00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:48,560
Speaker 3: hard to get the VEN number off of a car.

237
00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:50,040
Speaker 2: Of course, experts.

238
00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:53,120
Speaker 3: Can do it, So you're saying her pacemaker had a

239
00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:54,480
Speaker 3: VN number of sorts.

240
00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:55,560
Speaker 2: It's the MAC address.

241
00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,960
Speaker 3: So you're also telling me, Scott Iiker that the signal

242
00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:06,600
Speaker 3: sniffer can filter out everything except her MAC address. That's correct,

243
00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,160
Speaker 3: and they're very easy to look up. I have to

244
00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,200
Speaker 3: look them up every time my mom goes to the hospital,

245
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,640
Speaker 3: which between a deep cough or we think maybe does

246
00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,520
Speaker 3: she have COVID or her back hurts or her chest

247
00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,840
Speaker 3: or she's ninety four, we go straight to the er, right,

248
00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:27,240
Speaker 3: don't wait to find out. And every time they want

249
00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,920
Speaker 3: to put her inside of an MRI, but she can't

250
00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,960
Speaker 3: do that because she got a pacemaker that it's not compatible.

251
00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:35,000
Speaker 2: It'll blow up.

252
00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,560
Speaker 3: Right, So every time, even though it's in the hospital records,

253
00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:42,320
Speaker 3: we have to look up the pacemaker and the exact

254
00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,840
Speaker 3: one that is in her every single time it's in

255
00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:46,720
Speaker 3: hospital records.

256
00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:48,160
Speaker 2: It's really not hard to do.

257
00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:53,680
Speaker 3: So the signal sniffer can hone in and only respond

258
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,600
Speaker 3: if it gets that MAC address correct.

259
00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,680
Speaker 9: That is correct out of thousands, which is fantast do

260
00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:01,800
Speaker 9: to Sky.

261
00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:03,320
Speaker 2: And Lazarro special guest joining us.

262
00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,680
Speaker 3: She is a veteran criminal defense attorney joining us out

263
00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:10,120
Speaker 3: of this jurisdiction in Utah. She has worked both state

264
00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:14,440
Speaker 3: and federal cases with Ray Quinny and Kneebacker.

265
00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:16,040
Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us. Guy.

266
00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:20,880
Speaker 3: I imagine if this ever does get to trial, which

267
00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:25,520
Speaker 3: I hope it does, that there will be a huge battle,

268
00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:30,440
Speaker 3: an evidentiary battle as to whether this evidence regarding the

269
00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,640
Speaker 3: signal sniffer will be allowed. It's just like the first

270
00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:39,120
Speaker 3: fight over DNA or the first evidentiary fight over fingerprints.

271
00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,440
Speaker 5: There's a huge fight whether it's.

272
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,720
Speaker 3: Reliable or not. Of course it will be deemed reliable,

273
00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:48,240
Speaker 3: but there's still going to be a huge evidentiary battle.

274
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:49,040
Speaker 2: Do you agree?

275
00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:51,880
Speaker 10: I do. I think any defense attorney in this case

276
00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:55,000
Speaker 10: is going to fight absolutely everything. I think there's going

277
00:16:55,040 --> 00:17:00,440
Speaker 10: to already been some problems, but especially with new anything

278
00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,600
Speaker 10: new that relates to technology or requires some sort of

279
00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,080
Speaker 10: expert to testify too, They're going to fight this tooth

280
00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:07,040
Speaker 10: and nail.

281
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,480
Speaker 3: You know another interesting fact about the signalsmith for Andrew Black,

282
00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:16,320
Speaker 3: I just want to throw it in. Cybersecurity technology in

283
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,760
Speaker 3: the defense field has used this technology for years and

284
00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:26,679
Speaker 3: years and years when trying to sniff out, for instance,

285
00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:33,080
Speaker 3: let's just say a foreign national government listening in you know, bugs,

286
00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:34,680
Speaker 3: all sorts.

287
00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,080
Speaker 5: Of waves, bluetooth waves, and they've.

288
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,680
Speaker 2: Been using it for a really long time.

289
00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,520
Speaker 3: Now it has advanced to where it's being used to

290
00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,520
Speaker 3: let's just say, find a victim and an avalanche, find

291
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,760
Speaker 3: a missing person on a hiking trail a densely wooded forest.

292
00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:53,480
Speaker 3: So it is now being adapted for us, just like

293
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,840
Speaker 3: we're seeing right now, but it's been around for decades.

294
00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:00,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is awesome technology and you can go to

295
00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:05,840
Speaker 4: there are electronics stores that the public can you know,

296
00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:10,080
Speaker 4: purchase these devices and use them for scanning for spyware

297
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,360
Speaker 4: in their own house on their computers. If they travel

298
00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:18,400
Speaker 4: to airbnbs. People are paranoid of cameras being and they're

299
00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:22,040
Speaker 4: not really a paranoid. There's been cases where airbnbs have

300
00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:27,680
Speaker 4: had cameras spying and individuals. Yeah, this equipment is available

301
00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:32,280
Speaker 4: to the public and it's being used across a wide

302
00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:37,320
Speaker 4: variety of areas and fields and including like you describe

303
00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:42,040
Speaker 4: outdoors sports like mountain climbing and things like that, and

304
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:44,080
Speaker 4: locating avalanche victims.

305
00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,359
Speaker 3: Guys, you are seeing video from our friends at Bluefly

306
00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:51,399
Speaker 3: YouTube to show you what we're talking about. And you

307
00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,560
Speaker 3: can see if we could show it the helicopters that

308
00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:58,440
Speaker 3: were darting through the sky with the sniffer on them.

309
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,960
Speaker 3: We believe that the sniffer is on there. You go

310
00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:05,000
Speaker 3: on the skids right there. This from our friend at

311
00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:09,640
Speaker 3: Fox News. This was happening until they got the wonderful

312
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:14,880
Speaker 3: idea to attach the sniffer to drones. Low flying drones,

313
00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:19,119
Speaker 3: very low flying drones. That's what you're seeing right there. More,

314
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:23,119
Speaker 3: there is the DNA update. We are now looking in

315
00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:29,199
Speaker 3: other data banks, particularly the Arizona State Data Bank. We

316
00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:33,479
Speaker 3: are also understanding that the DNA found in that glove

317
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:39,600
Speaker 3: and in the home is being tested in genetic genealogy

318
00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:45,280
Speaker 3: data banks, things like jed match and more. To Dave

319
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:48,280
Speaker 3: mac tell me about the DNA found in the home.

320
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:49,159
Speaker 2: What do we know about that?

321
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,640
Speaker 6: You know, Nancy, it was DNA that was found inside

322
00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,320
Speaker 6: the home, but they they being law enforcement, they had

323
00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:01,399
Speaker 6: not indicated exactly what it was, just DNA found in

324
00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:05,280
Speaker 6: the home. We do know so that it were llabed

325
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:08,800
Speaker 6: for testing, and we're hoping to get that information back

326
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,120
Speaker 6: as soon as this afternoon, and then they'll they will

327
00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,120
Speaker 6: be able to compare what they've already found and see

328
00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,280
Speaker 6: if we can't connect between what was found in the

329
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,040
Speaker 6: house and what was found on the glove. And again

330
00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:24,600
Speaker 6: something that was mentioned earlier. You know, when it comes

331
00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,560
Speaker 6: to codis nancy and getting a hit on codis not

332
00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:31,160
Speaker 6: everybody in the world is in a database. So if

333
00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:35,719
Speaker 6: you've got somebody's at DNA and you've identified this DNA,

334
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,239
Speaker 6: but they're not in a system anywhere they're not going

335
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:40,040
Speaker 6: to show up. You have to have something to compare

336
00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:42,520
Speaker 6: it to so you can move forward. So that's the

337
00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:43,960
Speaker 6: other side part of this whole thing.

338
00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,359
Speaker 3: Dave Matt, what can you tell me about FBI agents

339
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:53,159
Speaker 3: taking We've been told forty names, forty photos to gunshops

340
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:53,960
Speaker 3: all around Tucson.

341
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,760
Speaker 6: They actually did. They got the pictures together, they got

342
00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:02,480
Speaker 6: bios on these people, and they forty Now we don't

343
00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:05,320
Speaker 6: know where they got the forty names, forty pictures. We

344
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:07,560
Speaker 6: don't know that, but what we do know is that

345
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,800
Speaker 6: they did have this list that they called in law enforcement.

346
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:14,119
Speaker 6: Then the FBI they went all throughout Tucson. I remember,

347
00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,520
Speaker 6: there's a lot of stores that sell guns. You're trying,

348
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,480
Speaker 6: pawn shops and everything else. So they were visiting all

349
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:23,640
Speaker 6: of these stores and showing pictures and talking to sellers

350
00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:28,480
Speaker 6: about businesses they've been conducting with selling firearms to find

351
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:32,800
Speaker 6: out if anybody recognized any of the forty plus pictures

352
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:36,440
Speaker 6: they were seeing, or the names, or were even just familiar.

353
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,479
Speaker 6: I mean, most people in Tucson have heard about this

354
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,920
Speaker 6: case right now. They're probably more familiar than most. And

355
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,960
Speaker 6: the FBI just decided to canvass every place that sells

356
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,840
Speaker 6: guns to see if anybody recognizes one of these forty

357
00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 6: that they've come up with thus far. And we don't

358
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,280
Speaker 6: have we don't have the results. We just know that

359
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:59,000
Speaker 6: they've been canvassing those names and those names and pictures.

360
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,879
Speaker 3: I'm very curious where those forty photos and forty names

361
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,480
Speaker 3: came from. Who are they, how are they identified? Or

362
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,600
Speaker 3: were they identified because their cell phones popped up in

363
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 3: Nancy Guthrie's neighborhood around the time she went missing. Are

364
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,159
Speaker 3: they people that worked for or around Nancy Guthrie? Are

365
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,800
Speaker 3: they church members? Are they distant relatives?

366
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,440
Speaker 2: I want to know who those forty people are.

367
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,000
Speaker 3: But before I go to skylazarro on the dangers of

368
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,200
Speaker 3: photo lineups and the constitutional problems with that, I want

369
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 3: to go back to Tammy Ballard and button down the

370
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:37,800
Speaker 3: DNA issue. Tammy, I know we're being told tonight that

371
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 3: the DNA found in the one glove did not get

372
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,439
Speaker 3: a hit in codis what I really want to know

373
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,240
Speaker 3: is did the DNA in or on that glove found

374
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:52,920
Speaker 3: in the area of Nancy's home match the DNA found

375
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 3: in the home. That's what I really want to know. Now,

376
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,159
Speaker 3: what type of DNA analysis would reveal that.

377
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 7: Are going to do the same exact DNA testing that

378
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:07,040
Speaker 7: they did on the gloves for a direct comparison, hopefully

379
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:12,119
Speaker 7: for what you referred to as an str profile. So

380
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:17,960
Speaker 7: that same profile from the glove was single source enough

381
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,360
Speaker 7: from one at least a good enough profile to get

382
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 7: all the way up to national, so you've got something

383
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:29,120
Speaker 7: great to compare to when you do identify additional profiles

384
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 7: from inside the residence.

385
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,159
Speaker 5: When you say it was good enough to get to national,

386
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 5: what do you mean.

387
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,680
Speaker 7: It's a pretty high bar to get a profile up

388
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 7: to national because there's so many people in National. Again,

389
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,639
Speaker 7: you don't want to have something hit to you know,

390
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 7: more than one individual, So you really have to have

391
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 7: a very solid profile because there's millions of profiles in

392
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,200
Speaker 7: that national code of database. So they have a good

393
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:56,400
Speaker 7: sounds like we they've.

394
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,160
Speaker 3: Got to read certain expectations, like it can't be degraded,

395
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 3: it can't be a mixture of DNA.

396
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 2: Is that what you're saying.

397
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 7: They can have mixtures, but those mixtures have to strongly

398
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 7: favor a significant contributor in there, such that they are

399
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 7: reporting and I haven't seen the profile, but they are

400
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 7: reporting that is an unknown male, So that's pretty significant.

401
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 7: That tells me that there is a very strong contributor.

402
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,680
Speaker 7: Even if there's a mixture, it sounds like the majority

403
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,640
Speaker 7: of that DNA is associated with one person.

404
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 3: Guys, the DNA is being compared on many, many different levels.

405
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 2: So Tammy Ballard, you're saying that now the.

406
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 5: Same type of test has to be run on the

407
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 5: same DNA.

408
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:44,399
Speaker 3: In order to match it potentially to DNA in Nancy

409
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 3: Guthrie's home.

410
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,159
Speaker 7: Correct, They're just going to do that same type of

411
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 7: DNA testing to compare. That's not saying they can't do

412
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 7: additional testing also, but for now they would be looking

413
00:24:55,880 --> 00:25:00,440
Speaker 7: at comparing an STR profile to an STR profile Apples

414
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 7: to apples.

415
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 5: So at what point do you use up the DNA?

416
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 7: Well, I'm going to hope that with a glove. A

417
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,400
Speaker 7: glove is usually a pretty decent amount of DNA potentially,

418
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 7: And again I don't know what the source of the

419
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 7: DNA is within the residents. Hopefully that's sufficient, but most

420
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 7: private laboratories have a pretty strict policy about not consuming

421
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 7: the DNA. So unless they're asking for and getting authorization

422
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 7: to consume that there should be sufficient DNA remaining to

423
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 7: also test again. And also I wouldn't hesitate about re

424
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 7: swabbing a glove and assuming sufficient DNA is quite a potential.

425
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 7: So it's a lot of surface area on a glove,

426
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,879
Speaker 7: and it sounds like if this DNA is associated with

427
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 7: a single person, then there's probably a good chance that

428
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 7: there's more DNA on that glove that you can work with.

429
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

430
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 5: Back to Skuy lazarro joining US veteran criminal defense attorney.

431
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 3: In the Utah jurisdiction, a photo array lineup is governed

432
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 3: largely by the same rules as an in person lineup.

433
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 3: It can't be persuasive in that you can't know that

434
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 3: your purpose sixty three and then put four guys that

435
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 3: are five to one and one guy that is six

436
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 3: y three In the lineup, It can't be a false lineup.

437
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 3: So what I'm getting at are the photos that have

438
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:49,679
Speaker 3: been shown to gun shop owners, which basically are tantamount

439
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,439
Speaker 3: to a photo array lineup.

440
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 2: What do you think?

441
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 10: I think this can be hugely problematic, especially if they

442
00:26:58,359 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 10: identify someone.

443
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 8: You know, they're going to get challenged all over the place.

444
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 10: Was it suggestive, like you said, is this really a

445
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 10: photo lineup?

446
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 8: Did they do it?

447
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 10: Were they just showing pictures? Did they give some sort

448
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 10: of description first things? Along those lines?

449
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 8: Are they looking for a particular gun?

450
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 10: I think it's it's going to cause some serious problems,

451
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 10: and it's a huge due process problem, I think for

452
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 10: the state a lot of times, and we see eyewitness

453
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 10: or convictions based on eyewitness testimony thrown.

454
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 8: Out all the time if you look at a lot

455
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 8: of the things that.

456
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 3: But wait a minute, Skylosar, I'm not talking about eyewitness testimony.

457
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 3: I'm talking about the constitutionality of a photo or an lineup,

458
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 3: which I personally have.

459
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,919
Speaker 5: Brought into evidence many, many, many.

460
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 3: Times, and I've never had a problematic issue with them.

461
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 8: I think it depends on how it's done.

462
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 10: I think they can be admissible, but if it's not

463
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 10: done correctly, or you have an officer who doesn't document

464
00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:58,400
Speaker 10: it correctly.

465
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 8: I think it's definitely challenged by the defense.

466
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 3: Oh, there's going to be a challenge on everything, whether

467
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 3: it's justified or not. You're right about that, Hey, Tammy

468
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 3: Ballard very quickly. In the home, we're talking about DNA

469
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,919
Speaker 3: found in the home. I'm guessing it's touch DNA, not blood.

470
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,479
Speaker 3: Where would you look in the home to get touch DNA?

471
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 7: Well, if I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm really

472
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 7: curious to know if there's blood right inside that front

473
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 7: door as well. But let's assume maybe there's blood in

474
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 7: the rest of the residence, anything around those areas where

475
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 7: a struggle may have occurred, any indication where somebody could

476
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 7: have left something behind. Maybe again, they could be injured

477
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 7: as well if she did fight back, so we might

478
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 7: have two bleeders and get really really lucky. So, yes,

479
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 7: touch DNA, but it's got to have something where you're

480
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 7: localizing an item of evidence or something that you think

481
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 7: might have come in contact with that perpetrator.

482
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 3: Okay, those were a lot of words. So you're saying

483
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 3: maybe the purp blood. So you think an eighty four

484
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 3: year old woman that had been asleep got actually got

485
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 3: to hit in. I don't think that the purp is

486
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 3: going to have bled I think that's Nancy Guffries's blood,

487
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 3: probably from a nosebleed. Plus you had propula, which you

488
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 3: can see that in the picture where her hand is

489
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 3: all bloody under the skin. People get that from using

490
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 3: blood thinners. It's very very common. So I would wager

491
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 3: any blood found on the scene is hers. So let's

492
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 3: move to the next possibility. Where could you get touch

493
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 3: DNA in the home that's not hers?

494
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 7: Well, if we're going to assume that he's got gloves

495
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 7: on because of the video footage, you know that that

496
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 7: anything is the potential with that. You know you're talking

497
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 7: to somebody who's done DNA for my entire adult life.

498
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 7: I wear a glove very differently than a normal human.

499
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 7: Where's a glove, So I guarantee that perpetrator was touching

500
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 7: his holster, everything on his person. I'm willing to wager

501
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 7: that bet. So you've got his DNA on the outside

502
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 7: of those gloves as well as the inside, So he's

503
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 7: probably leaving some DNA behind in that residence. The struggle

504
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 7: is going to be trying to figure out where he

505
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 7: would have left touch DNA and on what items.

506
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 3: Okay, that was so smart out of curiosity. This is

507
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 3: not probative to the Guthrie chase.

508
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 5: But what do you mean you wear gloves differently than

509
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 5: the rest of us.

510
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 7: I watch people wear gloves because my whole life is

511
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 7: protecting the DNA. So when I see someone put a

512
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 7: pair of gloves on at a crime scene and grab

513
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 7: the pen out of their pocket that they've been carrying around,

514
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 7: those gloves are now contaminated. The average person doesn't realize

515
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 7: that they're cross contaminating their gloves with their own DNA

516
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 7: with the simplest of tasks, you know, using a pen,

517
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 7: wiping your brow, touching that holster that you most likely

518
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 7: he wasn't handling that holster at all times with gloved hands.

519
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 7: So his DNA is on these items and would transfer

520
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 7: onto those gloves. Then those that those gloves could be

521
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 7: that transfer inside the house for touch DNA as well.

522
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 3: And that is why Tammy Ballard is the expert. Hadn't

523
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 3: even thought of that of transferring touch DNA to become

524
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 3: touch DNA in the home.

525
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,959
Speaker 2: And we see him touching the holster.

526
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 5: What if he wiped his nose, what if he touched

527
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 5: his face, what if he rolled up his sleeve, rolled

528
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 5: down his sleeve.

529
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 3: There is a plethora of possibilities of getting DNA.

530
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 5: How do you go in there and figure out?

531
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 2: Tammy Ballard?

532
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 3: Okay, See many people would say, we'll get the door

533
00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,479
Speaker 3: handles in the light switches, but there's so much than

534
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 3: door handles and lights, which is Tammy yes.

535
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 7: And again, it's really difficult to make assumptions when you

536
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 7: haven't had access inside the scene to see what is disrupted.

537
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 7: You know, maybe she was able to. I mean, maybe

538
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 7: there's a very clear area where something is disrupted, where

539
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 7: there could be something handled, an item of evidence that

540
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 7: just really sticks out that might have been collected. I

541
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 7: just it's hard to speculate. But those are the items

542
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 7: that you're going to see.

543
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 3: What about the saliva on the flash line, the light

544
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 3: bid those remember he had that in his mouth.

545
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 2: Those are keep it in his mouth the whole time.

546
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 2: I'm sure those.

547
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 7: Are my favorite. That's your source of DNA right there,

548
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 7: and that's saliva. So I've had several of those cases. Uh,

549
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 7: those are the best. He's also probably adjusting that really

550
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 7: uncomfortable face mask. So he's got all that sweat and

551
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 7: saliva from his own face mask that he's trained spring

552
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 7: onto his gloves and potentially transferring on to something else.

553
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 5: We can only pray Tammy Ballard.

554
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 3: And this is why my direct examinations always took so long,

555
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 3: because every time the witness the expert would say something,

556
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 3: it leads to a whole series of other insanely relevant questions.

557
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 3: Who would have thought other than Tammy Ballard about him

558
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 3: touching his holster, which we see him do over and over,

559
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 3: and then touching something in the home, or fiddling with

560
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 3: his face mask, or fiddling with his gloves, or taking

561
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 3: the light bite which is covered in his saliva and

562
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 3: touching something else.

563
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 2: We can only pray he made a mistake.

564
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 3: And speaking of all of these accouchment to Andrew black

565
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 3: joining Us, former Special Agent in charge of the Tucson

566
00:33:55,080 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 3: Office of the FBI, currently Chief of the Universe Hawaii

567
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 3: Department Public Safety, Andrew, I want to talk to you

568
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 3: about Walmart.

569
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 5: We know that the Ozark backpack is sold at Walmart.

570
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 3: Our crime story's staff within an hour had identified objects

571
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 3: also sold at Walmart that it looks like he's wearing

572
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:30,919
Speaker 3: the jacket, the face mask, the backpack. I can only

573
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 3: imagine what the shoes would reveal. Walmart sells gloves like that.

574
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,280
Speaker 2: The holester, the holster.

575
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 3: It's a cheap about a ten dollars polyester holster, and

576
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 3: when we last checked, it was only available at two

577
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 3: twos on Walmart's What if this guy and why wouldn't.

578
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 2: He got it all at once?

579
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 3: And there would be the receipt for the FBI to

580
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 3: find us. Another thing we've been talking a lot, or

581
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,760
Speaker 3: I've been talking a lot how cass sailor annalysis survey

582
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 3: team with the FBI has been identifying phone usage in

583
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 3: Nancy's neighborhood at the time she went missing. Problem would

584
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 3: be a burner phone. They're harder to trace, but they're

585
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 3: also sold at Walmart.

586
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,439
Speaker 2: And what about the bite light? What about that?

587
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 4: Well that those are all good points. He seems to

588
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 4: be a frequent Walmart shopper. And as you've seen, the

589
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,240
Speaker 4: more information that comes out. First we had the video,

590
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,240
Speaker 4: we had the backpack that was identified as coming from Walmart.

591
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 4: We had a description of the individual with the height,

592
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 4: we had the sketch that approximated what he looked like.

593
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 4: And now we're getting indications that the clothing that you

594
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 4: described were also purchased at Walmart. All this is very helpful.

595
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 4: The fact that that Holster has only sold it to

596
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,280
Speaker 4: Walmart is a very easy lead to follow up. Walmart

597
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 4: has a very good loss prevention system, have cameras at

598
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 4: every cashier. So ideally you hope this person paid for

599
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 4: these items with a credit card. That would be awesome.

600
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 4: That would make things much easier. If it was paid

601
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 4: for cash, you might have a little trouble because like

602
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,720
Speaker 4: all businesses, there's a turnover of the length of time

603
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 4: that video is kept. Usually it's thirty to sixty days,

604
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 4: but as we've seen with the Nest camera, is it

605
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 4: ever really gone? It may take longer to get it

606
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,359
Speaker 4: if it was purchased with cash outside of the thirty

607
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 4: to sixty day period from her disappearance. But I'd like

608
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 4: to circle back one thing that Tammy was talking about.

609
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 4: She did an excellent job analyzing the DNA issues. But

610
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 4: the FBI and local law enforce they do have enhanced

611
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 4: technology and lighting called alternate light sources that will illuminate

612
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 4: any type of DNA material, So they could shine these lights.

613
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 4: There's a various levels of spectrums and they can illuminate

614
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 4: where DNA can be located. That's how the Polyclass kidnapping

615
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 4: twenty something years ago was solved with that alternate light

616
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 4: source illuminating some DNA that was otherwise invisible.

617
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 3: Wow, when you're saying alternate light sources, are you talking

618
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,280
Speaker 3: about the use of aluminol or are you talking about

619
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 3: blue star?

620
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:20,879
Speaker 2: What are you talking about?

621
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 4: That's one technique. There are also photographic and light sources

622
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:35,800
Speaker 4: that are utilized and when they are shown in a area,

623
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 4: and I think Tammy knows about this. I don't know

624
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 4: the name of the particular technology, but it illuminates DNA

625
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 4: in a row.

626
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:47,479
Speaker 3: So, Andrew, you're talking about alternative light sources like blue

627
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 3: light technology or U the ultraviolet light.

628
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 4: Yes, and I'm sure the technology has advanced since when

629
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 4: I left the f guy eight years ago. These are

630
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 4: techniques that are used to innate bodily fluids biometric information

631
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 4: that otherwise couldn't be detected by the naked eye, and

632
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 4: sometimes without even powder.

633
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:13,280
Speaker 3: Scott Iiker joining us from PCA Precision a Cellular analysis,

634
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 3: You have a question for Andrew Black.

635
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 2: What is it?

636
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 9: Yeah, Edrea, I, since you're the SAC and Tucson you

637
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,879
Speaker 9: probably have a lot of experience dealing with the fact

638
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 9: that the border is so close, and how you think

639
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 9: that might affect us identifying this DNA and suspects in

640
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 9: the area.

641
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 4: Well, that's the Tucson is considered a border town, right

642
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 4: just sixty miles the Mexican border is just sixty miles

643
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 4: south of Tucson, So you know, when we've had investigations,

644
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 4: it's not a common for individuals who are eluding law

645
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 4: enforcement or the FBI to cross over into the border.

646
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,760
Speaker 4: Right now, there's no indication that that's what's happening. Through

647
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 4: the investigators and any information they've released, they believe this

648
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 4: is a low crime with local individual or individuals, but

649
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,439
Speaker 4: you can't rule out the possibility. With the border being

650
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:12,840
Speaker 4: that close it is for someone who's on the run,

651
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 4: it is very enticing just to cross over the border

652
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 4: till things blow down.

653
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 2: Why are you so convinced it's local, Andrew, I.

654
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 4: Think with all the information that's been coming out, there's

655
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 4: been anywhere between thirty and fifty thousand leads that have

656
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 4: been generated, I think they would have shared more information

657
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 4: about an international aspect of this case. Doesn't mean there

658
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 4: isn't it's very plausible because the border's right there and

659
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 4: it's attractive to criminals to cross over. But I think

660
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,320
Speaker 4: we would have heard something either from the FBI or

661
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 4: the Sheriff's department regarding some cross border nexus.

662
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 3: If you know or think you know anything regarding Nancy

663
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 3: Guthy's disappearance, please dial toll free eight hundred two two

664
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 3: th five three two four eight hundred two two five

665
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,359
Speaker 3: five three two four. If you wish to remain anonymous,

666
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 3: dial five two zero eight eight two seven four six

667
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 3: three five two zero eight eight two seven four six three.

668
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 2: Thank you to our.

669
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 5: Guests for being with us, but especially to you for

670
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 5: being with us tonight.

671
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 2: Nancy Gray signing off for tonight. I'ssi you tomorrow night,

672
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 2: and until then, good night for it