Speaker 1: I know you all have questions about this conclave, and
Speaker 1: we've gathered them all and we've got some answers, and
Speaker 1: that ain't blowing smoke on this edition of the Conclave Crew.
Speaker 1: Welcome to this Arroyo Grande series, The Conclave Crew, Vatican Edition,
Speaker 1: Episode five. Can you believe it's been five? And this
Speaker 1: series has been brought to us by our friends at
Speaker 1: Taylor for Gone Capital Management, Faith, Family and Finances there
Speaker 1: at TAYLORFGHNE dot com, as well as Floriani revitalizing sacred
Speaker 1: music there at Floriani dot org. We have a lot
Speaker 1: of your questions to get to. Let's convene the crew.
Speaker 1: Father Gerald Murray, Canon lawyer of the Archdiocese of New York,
Speaker 1: and Robert Royal, editor in chief of The Catholic Thing
Speaker 1: dot org, and I'm Raymond Arroyo. Go subscribe to the
Speaker 1: Arroyo Grande podcast wherever you get your podcasts, or you
Speaker 1: can see the show A Royal Grande Show on YouTube
Speaker 1: and like this episode, the cardinals are in the Sistine
Speaker 1: Chapel conducting rounds of votes as we speak. Look, we
Speaker 1: could get a new pope any minute, but until then
Speaker 1: the world is on smoke. Watch last night. It was
Speaker 1: also focused on a seagull and the chimney stack at
Speaker 1: the Cistina for hours. I actually ran into that seagull
Speaker 1: on my way home last night, and my friend was
Speaker 1: with me. Who he saw this, no lie and they
Speaker 1: ordered a dove. I guess of the Holy spirit they
Speaker 1: got a seagull better than vultures.
Speaker 2: I guess.
Speaker 1: We have gotten so many questions from you. I want
Speaker 1: to get right to the conclave clue. Are you ready?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 1: Yes, all right, Okay, here we go. First one for Bob.
Speaker 1: Will the conclave be looking outside the box for a
Speaker 1: successor of Saint Peter? How about the credentials of Bishop
Speaker 1: Robert Barron or someone like that?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 2: I love Robert Baron.
Speaker 4: I mean he's a controversial figure for some people, but
Speaker 4: I think he's a very rock solid guy. He's very
Speaker 4: well educated, very well spoken, speak several languages, understands really
Speaker 4: very deeply. He understands the moment that we're in right now,
Speaker 4: and it's a very difficult cultural moment as well as
Speaker 4: it is an internal church moment.
Speaker 2: But unfortunately, I think.
Speaker 4: This time around, the bets have been laid largely that
Speaker 4: the leading candidates are large are probably going to be
Speaker 4: among the finalists that we're going to see, although I
Speaker 4: think some of the ones like Padline, who are really
Speaker 4: at the top at the beginning of their stars, have
Speaker 4: sunk quite a bit. So we may see a surprise,
Speaker 4: but it's very unlikely that they're going to go outside
Speaker 4: the box, if what you mean is outside the cardinals.
Speaker 1: Cardinals for a minute there, Bob, when you were talking
Speaker 1: about Bishop Baron's language skills and everything, I thought I'd
Speaker 1: have to go to ed Pentton and have them update
Speaker 1: the College of Cardinals report and doing addendum with Baron
Speaker 1: at the back. Maybe next time we'll do that. One
Speaker 1: viewer wrote, father, I seriously doubt that this particular way
Speaker 1: of voting goes back two thousand years. Well, let me,
Speaker 1: I'm going to handle this one. It's called a tradition.
Speaker 1: It evolved. You know, you're going to look at the
Speaker 1: Acts of the Apostles. I did it this morning. In
Speaker 1: Acts one, the apostles gather to prey and then vote
Speaker 1: to cast lots if you will, to replace Judas, and
Speaker 1: they choose between two men. Look it up. Over time,
Speaker 1: that process evolved where you had the Priests of Rome,
Speaker 1: then the Cardinals of Rome, then the larger College of
Speaker 1: Cardinals by twelve seventy four. This form of gathering in
Speaker 1: a single locked location, cut off from the world, was
Speaker 1: formalized originally in the Quernal Palace, which it was the
Speaker 1: seat of the Italian government. Later that moved to the
Speaker 1: Sistine Chapel. So it does go kind of back two
Speaker 1: thousand years, though it's evolved and the traditions have matured
Speaker 1: with it. The beauty of the church, I think, father,
Speaker 1: is that we bring all of that tradition into the future.
Speaker 1: We sort of gather it up through the two millennia
Speaker 1: and carry it, you know, to the present moment.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was useful back then, it's useful now, I
Speaker 5: mean too deep politicize.
Speaker 3: Let's say the whole process.
Speaker 5: There are no speeches being given in the Sistine Chapel,
Speaker 5: and people's vote is a secret.
Speaker 3: It's not a voice.
Speaker 5: Vote where you could try to, you know, look at
Speaker 5: people and persuade them to go along with you. So no,
Speaker 5: it's a very respectful process to let people vote their conscience.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I like the way. I like that it
Speaker 1: almost has a wave quality, you know, one candidate rises
Speaker 1: and then others shift alliances because they're concerned and suddenly
Speaker 1: somebody else comes up. There's something. Well, it's mysterious. It's mysterious.
Speaker 1: It allows the Holy Spirit to operate a bit. Father,
Speaker 1: this one's for you. Why the lady wrote this? I
Speaker 1: didn't write this. Why are all the cardinals wearing red dresses? Father?
Speaker 1: Is that a vera wang or an omani? Why are
Speaker 1: they wearing red?
Speaker 5: Well, it actually comes from Target, you know, tell hers, Yeah,
Speaker 5: pretty cheap. No, they don't wear dresses. The cassock is
Speaker 5: not a dress. The cassock is that long garment meant
Speaker 5: that the priests wear. It's black for your ordinary priests,
Speaker 5: and then cardinals get red. They wear because that symbolizes
Speaker 5: that they're willing to shed their blood to promote the
Speaker 5: faith and be faithful to Jesus Christ. So, no, the
Speaker 5: garment has an elegance to it. I think Raymond, we
Speaker 5: would all say, and when you're wearing red ones where
Speaker 5: everyone else is in black, it's very striking. They stand out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the evolution of that is really something. I
Speaker 1: mean that goes right back to Roman garb. And I
Speaker 1: mean there's a lot of interesting Again, the church collects
Speaker 1: up all of these bits and pieces from history and
Speaker 1: carries it on and deserves it.
Speaker 3: Let me throw that in.
Speaker 5: I mean, yes, in Rome, important people were purple and
Speaker 5: purple was the color of the nobility and the senators,
Speaker 5: and so the church use that for the bishops. So
Speaker 5: the bishops wear purple and the cardinals were red.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, just as a side note, a
Speaker 1: contemporary cultural side note, one of the most visited met
Speaker 1: Gala exhibitions at the met for the costumes and and
Speaker 1: you know, what do you call that? Finer fashion ended
Speaker 1: up being the year that they focused on the Catholic
Speaker 1: Church and what it did for fashion, and it was
Speaker 1: mostly papal regalia, and you know, cardinal and bishop's outfits.
Speaker 1: It's kind of cool, that's what they were looking at.
Speaker 3: Anyway.
Speaker 1: Bob Maurene asks, is the new pope allowed to come
Speaker 1: into the Vatican with his own entourage that he can trust?
Speaker 1: Interesting question.
Speaker 2: Well, look, the pope is a boss.
Speaker 4: He can come in with whoever he wants, and presumably
Speaker 4: he is going to want to have people around him
Speaker 4: that he can trust. We've talked about this before that
Speaker 4: a pope can't rule a large entity like the Catholic
Speaker 4: Church on his own. Although we In this recent papacy,
Speaker 4: we saw a lot of the usual offices and channels
Speaker 4: by which the pope rules were short circuited. Pope Francis
Speaker 4: liked himself to make a lot of decisions, but any
Speaker 4: wise leader of a large group, in particular a pope
Speaker 4: needs to have a large group I think actually of
Speaker 4: trusted advisors. So it'll be interesting, as it is when
Speaker 4: we see like a president, you know, to put together
Speaker 4: a cabinet, it will be interesting to see who he
Speaker 4: brings in.
Speaker 2: Along with him.
Speaker 4: And it's not a matter of being permitted. He's the
Speaker 4: boss at that point, and he can he can even
Speaker 4: reconfigure what the officers are going to be like with
Speaker 4: the people who are going to help him, as Pope
Speaker 4: Francis did.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, we're we're we are bracing for a
Speaker 1: big shift here one way or that. It doesn't matter
Speaker 1: who the man is, he inevitably will bring his own
Speaker 1: sensibility and put his own stamp on this papacy.
Speaker 3: Father.
Speaker 1: What happens if a cardinal is elected and refuses the nomination?
Speaker 1: Someone wrote in our comments does the conclavor zoom voting?
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's an excellent question, because yes, in order to
Speaker 5: become pope, you have to accept the election. So it's
Speaker 5: a very And it's similar if the pope names an archbishop,
Speaker 5: let's say the Archbishop of Phoenix or somebody, and the
Speaker 5: letter comes in and the man, the pre nominated archbishop
Speaker 5: Phoenix says no, then he's not the Archbishop of Phoenix.
Speaker 5: So likewise the pope can say no to the cardinals
Speaker 5: and then in that case they would have to resume voting. Yep,
Speaker 5: that's the way it is because it has to be
Speaker 5: a free choice on the part of the person. And
Speaker 5: some cardinals may say I'm not up to this job.
Speaker 5: They may know that they have an illness that's going
Speaker 5: to really debilitate them, or they may just say, you know, man,
Speaker 5: you let's say they elect a man who's seventy nine
Speaker 5: years old. He said, you know, I'm seventy nine. I'm
Speaker 5: not going to have the energy needed to confront the
Speaker 5: situation of the church. So it would be an active
Speaker 5: humility actually for that man to say I'm sorry, I
Speaker 5: do not accept this election.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then they go back to another round of balloting.
Speaker 1: Can't make them happy, They've got to be you know,
Speaker 1: this group wasn't too happy after the long stay in Rome.
Speaker 1: I can't imagine what they're going through now. You know,
Speaker 1: it's sequestered in the in the Sistine Chapel. You know,
Speaker 1: all you see is only outside. You see is the
Speaker 1: boss taking you back and forth from the Santa Marta
Speaker 1: house to the assisting travel father. Can you explain about
Speaker 1: the three types of cardinals and what they mean? What
Speaker 1: are those rules and are they interchangeable or do they
Speaker 1: and can they adapt? Can they change those three types
Speaker 1: of cardinalsn't sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Within the College of Cardinals, there are three ranks or
Speaker 5: levels cardinal deacons, cardinal priests, and cardinal bishops. And this
Speaker 5: reflects the practice going back many centuries in Rome, where
Speaker 5: you would have deacons, who are the first order of
Speaker 5: sacred orders that they were serving in Rome, and actually
Speaker 5: in Rome they organized their church or what they're called deaconries,
Speaker 5: and deacons were in charge of charity. So they'd have
Speaker 5: deacons and they have priests who would serve in the
Speaker 5: different churches. So the pope would pick some of those
Speaker 5: deacons and priests to be sort of like important people
Speaker 5: who would have the right then to nominate and elect
Speaker 5: the new pope. Cardinal bishops are there from what they're
Speaker 5: called the sub or carrion diocese, so the dioceses that
Speaker 5: are immediately surrounding the Diocese of Rome. Those bishops were
Speaker 5: called cardinal bishops, and it became the tradition that all
Speaker 5: of them were then cardinals, and they had a right
Speaker 5: to vote in the conclict. Now all of that is
Speaker 5: now ceased from the point of view of they're these
Speaker 5: everyone who becomes a deacon cardinal deacon is already a
Speaker 5: priest or a bishop, and likewise cardinal priests or priests
Speaker 5: or bishops, same with cardinal bishops. But the within the
Speaker 5: tradition now they maintained that, for instance, the leader of
Speaker 5: the conclave is the cardinal dean, or in his absence,
Speaker 5: the senior cardinal bishop. So the cardinal dean and the
Speaker 5: vice dean are both over eighty. So Cardinal Paraline, who
Speaker 5: was the senior cardinal bishop, he is then charged inside
Speaker 5: the Sistine chapel of the conclave, and then the cardinal deacon,
Speaker 5: the senior one, will announce from the balcony the name
Speaker 5: of the new pope. So there are these roles, and
Speaker 5: then of course, like an organization, so ancient seniority has
Speaker 5: its role.
Speaker 3: So the bishops and priests and deacon cardinals all enter
Speaker 3: according to their rank.
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, that's cool the way it's broken up. And
Speaker 1: again you see all that history there again, the church
Speaker 1: preserving this history. Even when things have fallen away, the classifications,
Speaker 1: the rank, the tradition remains. Bob. Vatican two, one of
Speaker 1: our viewers wrote, Vatican two had serious problems, even heresy
Speaker 1: within that has not been addressed. What about the heresy
Speaker 1: of modernism that's devastated the church in the past sixty years?
Speaker 4: You would say, what, Well, as I mentioned earlier, I
Speaker 4: think that Bishop Baron has a good grasp on that.
Speaker 4: And you know, we just have to recognize that we
Speaker 4: all live in a culture that is deeply marked by modernism,
Speaker 4: which is to say, a kind of a materialistic scientific.
Speaker 2: View of the world. I mean, there's nothing wrong with
Speaker 2: true science.
Speaker 4: And the true study of the physical world, but that
Speaker 4: has kind of encroached on our understanding of faith, of morals,
Speaker 4: of what human beings are. Are we just animals or
Speaker 4: are we something that go beyond that? And so I
Speaker 4: think that this is not a cultural question that can
Speaker 4: be solved very quickly. And some of these ambiguous statements
Speaker 4: I would call them that came out of Vatican too,
Speaker 4: were of course exploited by people who wanted to use
Speaker 4: that modernism to advance progressive causes within the Church. Now,
Speaker 4: in broader cultural terms, lots of people consider us to
Speaker 4: be in postmodernism right now, which means that the old modernism,
Speaker 4: that old materialism, scientific materialism, that's not so security longer.
Speaker 4: I mean we see it in politics, we see it
Speaker 4: in education. So there's a real opportunity for someone who
Speaker 4: grasps deeply what's at stake, brings the graces and the
Speaker 4: power of Christ into a culture that itself now is
Speaker 4: searching groping around for what it's going to do. It
Speaker 4: may take some serious restructuring of how people look back
Speaker 4: at the Council and understand that as well. It's a
Speaker 4: big task and it's one that I think the next
Speaker 4: Pope has to undertake along with all the other things
Speaker 4: that we've talked about with regard to sexual abuse, to
Speaker 4: financial problems. That's a longer term problem, but we really
Speaker 4: need to get on the case. John Paul and Benedict
Speaker 4: started the response to it. I think we need to
Speaker 4: take that forward very vigorously because in a century or so,
Speaker 4: we could be in a very different culture unless we do.
Speaker 1: Father. Here's an interesting question. Can a cardinal vote for
Speaker 1: himself in a conclave?
Speaker 5: A cardinal can vote for himself, accept in the runoff,
Speaker 5: and it's a technicality. So yeah, a cardinal can vote
Speaker 5: for himself in each round leading up to I guess
Speaker 5: it's the thirty third round. So if they haven't elected
Speaker 5: anybody by around thirty three, what they do is the
Speaker 5: top two vote getters enter into a runoff.
Speaker 3: The cardinals.
Speaker 5: The two cardinals who are in that category cannot vote
Speaker 5: for themselves, so no one could say that they were
Speaker 5: the deciding vote for themselves. And I think that's a
Speaker 5: wise decision.
Speaker 1: Well that was kind of a setup for this question
Speaker 1: that one of our viewers has submitted, who would Jesus
Speaker 1: vote for in the conclave?
Speaker 5: Well, you know, until the runoff number one, the Good
Speaker 5: Lord was not a cardinals, so you know he's the
Speaker 5: he's the God incarnate who the cardinals worship and obey.
Speaker 5: So no, and you know, in the free Will, in
Speaker 5: the rather excuse me, in the gift of free will
Speaker 5: to mankind, God left in the church decisions to be
Speaker 5: made by us, not by God directly. So we believe
Speaker 5: in providence, in God's help, but we do not believe that.
Speaker 5: You know, God is voting in the Each cardinal votes,
Speaker 5: and hopefully they vote in a godly way. But got
Speaker 5: to remember there are a lot of good men in
Speaker 5: that college, so voting for one and not another doesn't
Speaker 5: mean you're doing something that defends God.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, when I read that question, I thought, if
Speaker 1: Jesus walks into the Sistine Chapel, I could promise you
Speaker 1: they'll all vacate. There'll be no need to have a
Speaker 1: vicar of Christ if you have Christ, right. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: well wait till he goes back to heaven and then
Speaker 1: you have another conclave. I guess here's an interesting question, Bob.
Speaker 1: This lady, she says, I am confused as to what
Speaker 1: the cardinal How do the cardinals vote on the fourth day?
Speaker 1: It says they have to take a pause on the
Speaker 1: fourth day according to the constitution of conclave that John
Speaker 1: Pauled a second drafted or wrote promulgated. Bob, do they
Speaker 1: take a pause for the full day for prayer and
Speaker 1: meditation or only for part of the day.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we talked about this the other day, and I
Speaker 4: think they have some latitude in what they're going to do.
Speaker 4: They could take the whole day off, they could take
Speaker 4: the half day off. And I think there's a certain
Speaker 4: prudence that if people are exhausted or they feel that
Speaker 4: they kind of have reached an impasse about where the
Speaker 4: vote is going, maybe it's a good thing to take
Speaker 4: a whole day. And if it's Sunday and they back
Speaker 4: off and they have a chance to pray, go to
Speaker 4: Mass and have a little bit of recreation and come
Speaker 4: back afterwards. But I don't believe there's any requirement that
Speaker 4: this be a full day or a half day. Will
Speaker 4: no doubt find if it gets to that stage, will
Speaker 4: no doubt find out how much the people who are
Speaker 4: running the actual conclave feel that they need a break.
Speaker 3: Father.
Speaker 1: Why do the cardinals have to change their handwriting when
Speaker 1: writing their ballot? This viewer said, I heard that they
Speaker 1: have to disguise their handwriting. Is that true?
Speaker 5: It is because the voting is anonymous. When you submit
Speaker 5: your ballots, you don't put your name on it, and
Speaker 5: when the ballots are deposited in the urn, those who
Speaker 5: are counters are supposed to mix them up. So that's
Speaker 5: like if you could see the last cardinal and he's
Speaker 5: on the top of the stack and take his name
Speaker 5: out first.
Speaker 3: Everybody know he voted for that person. So now the
Speaker 3: goal here is to not allow the.
Speaker 5: Individual names or votes to be known, so that it
Speaker 5: can't be a form of moral persuasion or even you know,
Speaker 5: kind of like a certain amount of coercion that you
Speaker 5: have to vote with cardinals x set. Now, disguising handwriting
Speaker 5: presumes that the counters will recognize the handwriting of the others.
Speaker 5: In the modern world, very few people send letters by snail.
Speaker 3: Mail, you know, they don't write out letters and email.
Speaker 5: You know, there's no signature unless you use that automatic
Speaker 5: signature thing which is always made up. So no one really,
Speaker 5: I think, will know the handwriting. But some of them
Speaker 5: may know the handwriting of each other. So yeah, disguising
Speaker 5: it as best you can, that's just another means to
Speaker 5: try to preserve the anonymity and privacy of what's happening.
Speaker 1: And I've known older cardinals who've gone in and they
Speaker 1: have an inframani, who's a person, you know, basically a
Speaker 1: nurse somebody to help them, and they can if the
Speaker 1: cardinal can't write, if they have the sheiks or a tool.
Speaker 1: They'll write the name for them and actually do that,
Speaker 1: which I didn't realize. But those functions those people do.
Speaker 1: Nurses if you will, they are allowed in, but they
Speaker 1: too are under the oath of secrecy. Bob, What could
Speaker 1: a group of Catholic cardinals do in the case and
Speaker 1: I'm reading this and at the moment of the election
Speaker 1: of a cardinal who is clearly heterodox or suspected of heterodoxy,
Speaker 1: between the very brief moment of the proclamation of the
Speaker 1: result of the vote and the moment when the elected
Speaker 1: cardinal accepts the office, is there an option that would
Speaker 1: allow Catholic cardinals to oppose an election on the grounds
Speaker 1: that the elected man is not Catholic, is not truly Poppibaly.
Speaker 4: I think the answer, unfortunately, is there's nothing that they
Speaker 4: can do that. It's kind of like the popular vote
Speaker 4: in a presidential election or whatever other type of election.
Speaker 4: If the process has been followed, one hopes that both
Speaker 4: because of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and the
Speaker 4: prudence of the men in the room, that that would
Speaker 4: not result in somebody who was obviously and openly heretical.
Speaker 4: That would have been worked out before that I can't
Speaker 4: imagine how they would know that at that given moment.
Speaker 4: But it's a good thing to raise these issues because,
Speaker 4: you know, funny things happen in the course of elections
Speaker 4: and whatnot, and we know, you know people we started
Speaker 4: out talking about how the conclave has not always been
Speaker 4: carried out in this formula. We've had periods when there's
Speaker 4: more than one pope and decisions have to be made
Speaker 4: about who was actually the legitimate pope, and there have
Speaker 4: been long periods of no pope at Also, we tend
Speaker 4: to see these things the way we see other events
Speaker 4: on television and through social media. In fact, someone has
Speaker 4: said this is the first social media conclave where there's
Speaker 4: almost instantaneous respect to what's happening.
Speaker 2: And so if.
Speaker 4: People were watching this see a figure who's elected who
Speaker 4: they suspect of heterodoxy, they're gonna, you know, they're going
Speaker 4: to react and they're hope that that someone can be saved.
Speaker 4: This is a different kind of process. This is is
Speaker 4: a slower, older type of process, and that can be frustrating,
Speaker 4: but at the same time it may provide some safeguards.
Speaker 1: Next question, what do the cardinals do in between votes?
Speaker 1: Father do they talk amongst themselves. Do they get up
Speaker 1: and speak, do they read? Do they pray? What's the
Speaker 1: protocol for dinner's lunches and the in between periods in
Speaker 1: the Sistine Chapel. I'll let you both talk about that.
Speaker 3: Sure.
Speaker 5: No, well, all of the above. You know, they're once
Speaker 5: they leave the Sistine Chapel, then they're going to be
Speaker 5: able to speak to each other. They get on the
Speaker 5: bus which takes them that short distance from the Sistine
Speaker 5: Chapel around the back of Saint Peter's over to the
Speaker 5: Saint Martha House.
Speaker 3: Inside they can take.
Speaker 5: A walk, you know, around that area where there's a
Speaker 5: sort of like parking lot air in front of Saint Martha's.
Speaker 5: The better said, and then the Vatican gardens are up
Speaker 5: the hill a little bit.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 5: They can certainly go in and discuss at dinner. They
Speaker 5: can also relax with a book. But they can't do
Speaker 5: is call anybody, send emails, listen to the radio, watch television,
Speaker 5: watch the Royal Grande podcast. They can't do any of that.
Speaker 5: So and I guess our shot. I know, but no,
Speaker 5: it's you know they are. It's it's similar to being
Speaker 5: on a retreat because there are times of prayer and silence,
Speaker 5: and certainly that's what's happening in the Sistine Chapel. But no,
Speaker 5: in fact, those are the times when they can look
Speaker 5: at compare notes and say, well, we think Cardinal X
Speaker 5: is the right one, but he couldn't get enough votes,
Speaker 5: and now I'm going to go for Cardinal Y.
Speaker 3: What do you think?
Speaker 1: Hmm. Yeah, that's when the that's when the heavy the
Speaker 1: heavy pressure and the politicking sort of begins.
Speaker 2: Bob.
Speaker 1: But I was told that they whisper and talk to
Speaker 1: the people aside them in the in the Sistine Chapel
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, look, they're they're they're free because they are
Speaker 4: actually behind kind of a paywall, if we want to
Speaker 4: put it that way, right, you know, I sometimes worry
Speaker 4: how how much behind uh anonymity they actually are. I mean,
Speaker 4: they take all these steps, they bring in, you know,
Speaker 4: security experts to sweep for bugs. But we've seen in
Speaker 4: the past that in such events somehow always managed to
Speaker 4: leak it to a certain extent, if not immediately then
Speaker 4: then after the fact. And they're not supposed to even
Speaker 4: leak after the fact. That right, Look, this is all
Speaker 4: to the good. The more that they talk with one another.
Speaker 4: The more the possibilities are working out some things, understanding
Speaker 4: who's who. We keep saying over and over again, they
Speaker 4: don't know each other very well. And maybe in that circumstance,
Speaker 4: which is a bit of a pressure pressure cooker, I mean,
Speaker 4: I think, you know, there's the outlet of prayer and
Speaker 4: relaxation and whatnot, But in that pressure cooker, you may
Speaker 4: begin to see things about people's characters. It will help you,
Speaker 4: how that, to see how they will operate when they're
Speaker 4: in the pressure cooker.
Speaker 1: Being the pope, yeah, father, speak to that for a moment.
Speaker 1: The I mean, when Pope Francis was elected, suddenly you know,
Speaker 1: there was a journalist, Austin Ivory who came out with
Speaker 1: a book. He had letter in verse of not only
Speaker 1: the agreements made before the conclave, but conversations had in
Speaker 1: the vote com I mean today he was sending out
Speaker 1: the vote com Oh. At this point, Francis was already
Speaker 1: up ten points. I thought this was supposed to be
Speaker 1: secret under penalty of excommunication.
Speaker 5: Now that's actually the canon law. It's supposed to remain.
Speaker 5: So you're not supposed to speak about anything concerning the election.
Speaker 5: Now that doesn't mean you can't say I walked in
Speaker 5: and my seat was uncomfortable because it was a plastic
Speaker 5: you know, wooden bench.
Speaker 3: Rather, that was not a nice seat. That's trivia.
Speaker 5: But you cannot come in and say, you know, I
Speaker 5: saw a cardinal Lets get up and then everybody was smiling.
Speaker 5: And no, you're supposed to keep it all secret, but
Speaker 5: people do leak. This is one of the had realities
Speaker 5: of the modern world that people do not take odes seriously.
Speaker 5: And this we see it in courts of law, and
Speaker 5: now we see it.
Speaker 3: You're right.
Speaker 5: There have been many books written about how the voting
Speaker 5: went in the last papal conclave and it's stunning. Now
Speaker 5: I'll say I'll be completely honest here. Poe Francis himself
Speaker 5: talked about yes, he did the voting subsequently, and people
Speaker 5: noted that, wait a minute, you're not supposed to do that.
Speaker 5: Now you could say, since he's the lawgiver, he could
Speaker 5: dispense himself from observing that law post facto.
Speaker 3: But you know the.
Speaker 5: Casualness nowadays with which people assume, well, we say that
Speaker 5: for public consumption, but in reality we call our journalist friends.
Speaker 3: That's something I think that needs to be stamped out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Bob, I saw it today. I'm walking I'm walking
Speaker 1: home from the from the Vatican. There are people on
Speaker 1: the phone after the first vote, and they're relating tallies
Speaker 1: and I hear this one's moving up, and that one's
Speaker 1: in the li and this one lost some votes. I'm like,
Speaker 1: what app are these people on?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've been looking at the Italian press, which is
Speaker 4: not always reliable. In fact, it's quite unreliable, but they
Speaker 4: are very reliable in that they convey every rumor that
Speaker 4: there is floating around in it and around the room
Speaker 4: at the same time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know.
Speaker 4: I mean there's a story that was told. This is
Speaker 4: an interesting story by Messagero that before they closed the
Speaker 4: doors today, the Cardinal Ray, who gave the homily at
Speaker 4: the final Mass before they possessed into the conclave, said
Speaker 4: to Cardinal Paroline, he used an expression that I've never
Speaker 4: heard before, alguti dopey. He says double good fortune. And
Speaker 4: since he's a leading candidate the way that the Italians
Speaker 4: are interpreting this and Cardinal rays a little hard of hearing,
Speaker 4: so he said it really loudly, so that everybody heard
Speaker 4: it as he.
Speaker 2: Was going in.
Speaker 4: What they heard that this as meaning is I hope
Speaker 4: you win number one, but also I hope you do
Speaker 4: well in managing, because he's also the manager of.
Speaker 2: What's going on inside the room there.
Speaker 4: So this is kind of thing that the Italians look
Speaker 4: at and they think that maybe it's going to tell
Speaker 4: things one way or another. I'm a little skeptical, but
Speaker 4: it's interesting the way that they read every tiny detail.
Speaker 1: Every utterance. Yeah, it's kind of cool. Are you looking
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Speaker 1: finances there at Taylorfogne dot com. Bob, what should the
Speaker 1: Pope elect do to help resolve and correct the China
Speaker 1: deal that remains secretive?
Speaker 4: One of our viewers, right, Oh man, this is a
Speaker 4: hard question.
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, if it's Cardinal Paroline, it's I mean, it's his baby,
Speaker 4: so he's going to have to go back on some
Speaker 4: of the things that he did there. Still, you know,
Speaker 4: we don't know what's in there. But we do know
Speaker 4: that the Chinese they're just running ahead with naming bishops
Speaker 4: and reforming dioceses and and actually changing the way that
Speaker 4: that masses are said inside the church with President G's
Speaker 4: image there, and they're trying to cynicize all religions, and
Speaker 4: especially the Catholic Church because of the Catholic Church as
Speaker 4: a what they regard as a foreign leader. I don't
Speaker 4: know what they can do. I think the first thing
Speaker 4: to do is to publish the accord. They aren't supposed
Speaker 4: to be private accords like this in the modern world.
Speaker 4: They should publish that. People should be able to know
Speaker 4: what the details are so they can at least criticize
Speaker 4: the Chinese if they're doing something they're not supposed to
Speaker 4: be doing. But I think this is the to take
Speaker 4: a much more severe approach, and it may it's going
Speaker 4: to require them to be willing to confront China. They
Speaker 4: haven't been willing to confront Cuba and Nicaragua and Venezuela lately,
Speaker 4: which had been putting a lot of pressure in Catholic priests.
Speaker 4: But it's not only the matter of a diplomatic arrangement.
Speaker 4: This is also the life and death of ordinary lay people,
Speaker 4: priests and bishops in China, and we can't abandon them.
Speaker 4: We need some vigorous action to rescue them.
Speaker 1: You know, Bob, it's interesting to say that I ran
Speaker 1: into a few African and South American cardinals and they
Speaker 1: were mentioning John Paul. We need a John Pole the
Speaker 1: second like pope because of what you just raised. He
Speaker 1: did confront Nicaragua, he did confront the Russian regime. He
Speaker 1: did confront these fascists and demanded religious freedom in them
Speaker 1: and brought the moral suasion of the church. I know
Speaker 1: it's a balancing act, but a fellow like Perline, I
Speaker 1: don't think he'll ever roll that back. But I think
Speaker 1: the next pope pastor not only expose it, but roll
Speaker 1: it back. It's it's it's outrageous. Father, which continent besides
Speaker 1: Europe one of our viewers' rites is most likely to
Speaker 1: produce the next Pope?
Speaker 3: Well, my estimation is would be Africa.
Speaker 5: You know, if we get a European this time, who
Speaker 5: knows how long he'll reign over the church as pope.
Speaker 5: But you know, the African Church is growing all the time,
Speaker 5: and the African cardinals, you know, assume, you know, great
Speaker 5: relevance in the life of the churches. They represent an
Speaker 5: area where Christianity is not dying. It's sad to say
Speaker 5: in Europe statistically, Christianity is losing numbers and influence in
Speaker 5: an unimaginable way. You know, if you think at the
Speaker 5: end of the Second World War, when Christianity was viewed
Speaker 5: as the renewal force to try and bring back a
Speaker 5: continent which have been destroyed by two worlds wars, and
Speaker 5: look at it today where Christianity is on the run
Speaker 5: in almost every single European nation. Eastern Europe is apart
Speaker 5: where there is a revival. But so I think Africa
Speaker 5: would be that they answer that question would be where the.
Speaker 3: Next a pope? Now, where the future will come from?
Speaker 1: Which wouldn't be the first time. In the early centuries
Speaker 1: of the Church we had a string of Africans, mostly
Speaker 1: from Tunisia, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, North Africa.
Speaker 5: Yeah, they were you know the Roman North Africa is
Speaker 5: the Roman province, so the Christianity spread there.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Bob william asks why are the older cardinals over
Speaker 1: eighty not allowed in the conclave, and especially why not
Speaker 1: allow them to be involved given that their knowledge is unparalleled.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's a bit of a sore point.
Speaker 4: But look, look, you have to have rules about when
Speaker 4: when people can be active in an organization, when when
Speaker 4: they cannot. I mean, it's simply the case in the
Speaker 4: Catholic Cheurche that bishops at age seventy five are supposed
Speaker 4: to send a letter to the Holy Father presenting their resignation.
Speaker 4: The Pope can accept it right at that moment, or
Speaker 4: we can say, well, you know, I want you to
Speaker 4: stay on. Very often people will stay on. Cardinal Dolan
Speaker 4: from New York, for example, his past seventy five, but
Speaker 4: he hasn't been removed from his position as Cardinal Archbishop
Speaker 4: of New York. Look, we've all known people over eighty
Speaker 4: years old. Some of them are very wise. I think
Speaker 4: of Cardinal zen who was just he's a dynamo, he's
Speaker 4: still got all his marbles, he's got energy, he's got courage.
Speaker 4: But how many and he's over ninety, how many people
Speaker 4: over eighty would be would you want to trust to
Speaker 4: have that degree of lucidity? And if you make an
Speaker 4: exception for one, why not another? And then you get
Speaker 4: into a whole quarrel over that.
Speaker 2: So it's a rule. In some cases it's.
Speaker 4: Probably unjust, but it would be unjust no matter how
Speaker 4: you kind of cut it. So you make a decision
Speaker 4: and that's how it goes for.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think it was Paul the six rule, right, father, Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 6: Can I throw in on this one, yeah, because yeah,
Speaker 6: Paul the Six put that rule in place, and it
Speaker 6: was understood at the time to be an effort to
Speaker 6: diminish the influence of older, presumably more conservative.
Speaker 3: Cardinals in the next papal election.
Speaker 5: The irony is, of course that you cannot vote for
Speaker 5: a pope if you're over eighty, but you can be
Speaker 5: a pope if you're overeatey.
Speaker 3: So you know.
Speaker 5: Which is more important. Being a pope is more important
Speaker 5: than voting for one. So if you can do the greater,
Speaker 5: you can do the lesser. That's the usual principle of law.
Speaker 5: So I think I also say the retirement of bishops
Speaker 5: of seventy five is not of that was only introduced.
Speaker 5: Also after the Second Vatican Council we got into the
Speaker 5: managerial mindset of efficiency, I think, you know, which is
Speaker 5: remember the managerial revolution after the Second World War.
Speaker 3: You know, we're going to fix the world's problems by
Speaker 3: better man. The jury is in on that.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Yeah, I don't think I don't think we should
Speaker 5: have these rules because I would much rather have cardinals
Speaker 5: Zen voting than simply being an advisor to the others.
Speaker 3: Because he's a man of extreme lucidity and experience.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then people look to the elders, particularly if
Speaker 1: they're venerable like Zen and have been through the fires
Speaker 1: of you know, facing down a regime like China and
Speaker 1: still you know, waving the flag. Here's father. This is
Speaker 1: one for you. Why can't there be an American pope?
Speaker 3: There can be.
Speaker 5: It's just, you know, the church exists in history, so
Speaker 5: historical factors have to be examined, you know. I mean
Speaker 5: my colleague here, Bob Royal, has written the whole history
Speaker 5: of theology in the twentieth century. You have to look
Speaker 5: at the way things develop, you know, theologians react to
Speaker 5: secular trends and then challenges and then biblical studies and
Speaker 5: all the rest. So on a political scene, I would say,
Speaker 5: what position does America operate in the world? Back in
Speaker 5: the eighteen fifth these we were a mission territory since
Speaker 5: the Second World War, with a unique dominant power opposing
Speaker 5: for the Communists and now other forces China and the rest.
Speaker 5: So I think the idea would be the dominant secular
Speaker 5: power should not also have one of its members be
Speaker 5: the head of the chur church honor.
Speaker 3: But I'd been through what Bob had to say.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Bob, that's the concern, right, you don't want the
Speaker 1: superpower having the other superpower.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think you're running, Bob. That's why you were talking
Speaker 1: all those cardinals this week. You were trying to slip
Speaker 1: them the bill.
Speaker 4: I mean, look, if they were the proper candidate. And
Speaker 4: some people think that the Cardinal Prevost, who has been
Speaker 4: the head of the bishops the committee that selects the bishops,
Speaker 4: and spend time in Latin America is a front runner.
Speaker 4: He's a possibility, even though he kind of just appeals
Speaker 4: to some of the Latin America because he spent time
Speaker 4: in Latin America, and of course he's been in Rome
Speaker 4: a lot. I just don't know what kind of pope
Speaker 4: he would be. I think an American who spent more
Speaker 4: time in America would have a better grasp on a
Speaker 4: lot of what's.
Speaker 2: Going on in the world.
Speaker 4: It's not necessary that a pope grasp you know geopolitical things.
Speaker 4: Certainly Pope Francis did not.
Speaker 2: John Paul did.
Speaker 4: Jean Paul happened to be a man who came from
Speaker 4: a country where he was in the midst of everything
Speaker 4: that was going on in the world at that moment.
Speaker 4: But why not, you know, there could be an American
Speaker 4: at some point. I think at this moment there's a
Speaker 4: fair degree of anti Americanism, and I think the Trump
Speaker 4: factor would maybe play into that as well, unfortunately, But
Speaker 4: anybody can become a pope, any person from any country
Speaker 4: around the world, and we may be surprised even this
Speaker 4: time around.
Speaker 1: Do you feel as I look out as I talked
Speaker 1: to so many of these men and we all did
Speaker 1: this week, it seems that this is why I kind
Speaker 1: of when I heard Prevost and so started looking at
Speaker 1: him and reading and watching interviews. It seems the pope now,
Speaker 1: the pope that everyone collectively is yearning for, whether they
Speaker 1: give you a name or not, is a sturdy man.
Speaker 1: John Paul was that sort of sturdy man of faith
Speaker 1: who had kind of been through the fires and was
Speaker 1: ready to complete the mission and declare the Gospel in
Speaker 1: a compelling way that came from a lived experience. Father,
Speaker 1: Am I totally off base? Is that? Do you feel
Speaker 1: that that's sort of where we are now.
Speaker 5: I think there's a desire for, you know, a strong
Speaker 5: father figure and you know, and you know, this is
Speaker 5: where you know, somebody said once, you know, gentleness is
Speaker 5: a sign of true strength, and I think that's what
Speaker 5: we all expect from our dads. You know, they lay
Speaker 5: down the law, but then you know they restrained the
Speaker 5: punishment to a degree in order to teach us good lessons.
Speaker 5: So you know, that's one reason why African cardinals are
Speaker 5: so attractive. You know, I've dealt with African parishioners in
Speaker 5: New York. One of my parents was majority African parishioners.
Speaker 5: They were French speaking. I have two African priests with me. Now,
Speaker 5: you know, Africa is a place where Christianity really was
Speaker 5: light to get people out of the fear of paganism
Speaker 5: and to bring to them, you know, the true fatherhood
Speaker 5: of God and brothership in Christ. So I think, you know,
Speaker 5: that is a very important factor. Now Africans aren't the
Speaker 5: only ones can do that, you know, again, going back
Speaker 5: to cardinals, en, we're talked about if there was ever
Speaker 5: a father figure it's him. You know, his flock is
Speaker 5: being persecuted by communists and he opens his mouth and
Speaker 5: says stop. Jimmy lay Sarah would also fit the bill.
Speaker 1: I mean he faced down a fascist regime down there
Speaker 1: Obongo the same. I mean, these people suffer for their faith.
Speaker 1: Of some of the Sudanese bishops, they've got, you know,
Speaker 1: marauding groups of Islamisists burning down villages and killing people.
Speaker 1: So they know what it means to suffer for the
Speaker 1: faith in the way that we in the West. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm going to play golf today. I'm going to skip
Speaker 1: the masks. Our African brothers and sisters don't understand that approach.
Speaker 5: I'll just throw in Nigerian bishops, you know, the cardinals
Speaker 5: in Nigeria are as Bob has recently said in a
Speaker 5: public presentation, no country in the world has suffered as
Speaker 5: many executions of Christians, i e. Martyrdoms than Nigeria.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to there are a couple of other
Speaker 1: questions here. I'm going to try to get this quickly
Speaker 1: in what was the actual state of liturgical practice in
Speaker 1: the church before that it can too and they're asking
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear your views on the role of
Speaker 1: Latin in the Church. It seems discussion center on one
Speaker 1: pole of the other tridentine or no Latin at all.
Speaker 1: Perhaps we could intstoll more Latin in the and keep
Speaker 1: the homilies in the vernacular. Bob, I'll start with you.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's sort of what Benedict the sixteenth was
Speaker 1: trying to accomplish.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, some people who write for us at
Speaker 4: the cat thing and who are advocates of Latin, as
Speaker 4: I myself am, have pointed to the fact that during
Speaker 4: Vatican Two a lot of the speeches were in Latin,
Speaker 4: which not all the cardinals, bishops, et cetera at that
Speaker 4: time understood very well. So some of the problems that
Speaker 4: we see in the end, may I've had something to
Speaker 4: do with that. We've seen in this past week that
Speaker 4: there's a lot of Latin that is being used, as
Speaker 4: in this run up to the conclive and even in
Speaker 4: the entry into the Conclive. And this really puts a
Speaker 4: question in front of us because if it's not going
Speaker 4: to be Latin, which is you know, you know, you
Speaker 4: say whatever you want about Latin, it is the historic
Speaker 4: official language of the Western Church, going back to the
Speaker 4: last The first few centuries of the Church actually started
Speaker 4: kind of in Greek but moved into into a Latin format.
Speaker 4: But what language is going to be the official language
Speaker 4: of the Vatican Otherwise, I mean that there has to
Speaker 4: be some some medium in which everybody can can discuss.
Speaker 4: And not everybody speaks Italian, by the way, So you
Speaker 4: know some people who proposed that English should now become
Speaker 4: the official language or at least the working language in
Speaker 4: the Vatican, because it's much more likely that people can
Speaker 4: handle that than to have studied it. They probably have
Speaker 4: to have studied in Rome to know Italian.
Speaker 2: But this question is not going to go away.
Speaker 4: There needs to be a universal language, and either it's
Speaker 4: going to be the universal language of the Old Empire
Speaker 4: or it's going to be the language or the New Empire. Probably,
Speaker 4: And that also touches on turgical matters which I'm not
Speaker 4: going to touch, but I'll leave to the cannadist to explain.
Speaker 1: Okay, resident candidates, you're up, so I'll start by me.
Speaker 1: Don't speak in Latin though.
Speaker 5: No, no, well, bell leaeve the lingual Latin side. No,
Speaker 5: I want to endorse a Bob just said English should
Speaker 5: be the language of the curia, and the reason being
Speaker 5: it's the language that most the largest number of Catholics
Speaker 5: in the world either speak and English as the first
Speaker 5: language or learned it. So therefore it's useful. It's not
Speaker 5: because of anglosphere domination, just the reality. I mean, we're
Speaker 5: just following Hollywood and the economic world. The diplomat French
Speaker 5: is no longer the diplomatic language of choice. So and
Speaker 5: it would be very useful, I would say, because yet
Speaker 5: we're never going to recover spoken Latin in the church.
Speaker 5: And part of the reason is when you when the
Speaker 5: liturgy became vernacular, there was no need for priests to
Speaker 5: learn Latin anymore. So now priests who do learn Latin
Speaker 5: have a particular interest in it, but there are very
Speaker 5: few Latin teachers who can go all over the world
Speaker 5: and spread this knowledge. So it's I regret that and
Speaker 5: maybe that can be revived and you know, now back,
Speaker 5: let's go to liturgy. Yeah, the liturgical practice before the
Speaker 5: council is a great treasure and value and hopefully, you know,
Speaker 5: we can go back to the John poll second Benedict approach,
Speaker 5: which is let both forms of the liturgy it coexists
Speaker 5: and influence each other.
Speaker 3: Because for those who do take the trouble to.
Speaker 5: Learn Latin and pray in it, you know, peace and
Speaker 5: joy come from that beautiful association with the historic worship.
Speaker 3: Of the Church. For people who go to the New Mass,
Speaker 3: which is in the vernacular, they've come to learn to
Speaker 3: appreciate that, and that should be allowed to continue. Also, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: that's a great point.
Speaker 1: And he did try to reconcile the Latin and the
Speaker 1: tradition of the Church with the vernacular, and they do
Speaker 1: fit together. They can fit and enrich one another. To
Speaker 1: pity that with stup. Okay, here's a question that came in.
Speaker 1: I've been giving a lot of these questions, so it's
Speaker 1: a good way to answer it. Are you going to
Speaker 1: be live during the conclave? Are you all going to
Speaker 1: be on site at Saint Peter's. Well, I'll take first
Speaker 1: crack at this. We're all going to be live, but
Speaker 1: we're going to be at different networks. I'll be on
Speaker 1: Fox News, Fathers on Newsmax. Bob has been bouncing around
Speaker 1: several different networks. We're doing the world over on Thursday,
Speaker 1: but e WTM decided not to have us anchor their
Speaker 1: live coverage, And to be very clear, because I've heard
Speaker 1: a lot of erroneous things over the last few of
Speaker 1: the days, this was not our decision. In fact, we
Speaker 1: paid our own way to come here to make ourselves
Speaker 1: available to e WT, and you know, for whatever reason,
Speaker 1: they decided to go in a different direction. So unless
Speaker 1: anybody else wants to chime in on that, I'll leave
Speaker 1: that one there. Question from down under, what do we
Speaker 1: laity do if we get a bad pope?
Speaker 4: We all head to the back country in Australia and
Speaker 4: pray like grace.
Speaker 2: Look, you know.
Speaker 4: This may be sound like a flip answer, but every
Speaker 4: human being is bad to a certain extent.
Speaker 2: We're all sinners.
Speaker 4: Every pope is going to have, you know, limitations. John
Speaker 4: Paul wasn't a particularly really good administrator. Benedictine wasn't either,
Speaker 4: but they were great men, great great men in various ways.
Speaker 2: What you do with you, you do what a Catholic does.
Speaker 4: You go to Mass, you go to confession, you bring
Speaker 4: your children upright, you practice charity, you keep your faith
Speaker 4: and don't allow extraneous especially in this media environment where
Speaker 4: every day everything has to be a you know, histrionic
Speaker 4: and dramatic and it's the end of the world. I mean,
Speaker 4: our faith is in the name of the Lord who
Speaker 4: made heaven in earth. This affair goes right. So if
Speaker 4: he made heaven on earth, he can probably keep us
Speaker 4: on the right track, you know, even if there is
Speaker 4: a bad But we're more, even more than one bad
Speaker 4: pope in a row, so be a Catholic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that'll work.
Speaker 1: Father, you're what should the lady do if we get a.
Speaker 5: Bit, Well, they had to have faith in God and
Speaker 5: continue to pray, remain faithful to the doctrine of the faith.
Speaker 5: You know, I'm reflecting back. You know, we had immoral
Speaker 5: popes in the in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance period,
Speaker 5: and I can't remember which pope was, but he made
Speaker 5: the statement he had illegitimate children. That's the lead into it.
Speaker 5: He said, in all the world calls me father, except
Speaker 5: my children call me uncle, you know, because that's that's
Speaker 5: how they were explaining to the children why they're close
Speaker 5: he's your uncle, whereas he loved with their father. So
Speaker 5: we can laugh about that. Of course, on chastity is
Speaker 5: not his immortal sin, and it's a horrible thing.
Speaker 3: But yeah, we faithful.
Speaker 5: I mean, we've had so many problems. The Reformation was
Speaker 5: a time of great upheaval. Now, the popes, you know,
Speaker 5: defended the Catholic Church against the Protestant Reformers, but many
Speaker 5: clergy didn't and they fell in with it. And then
Speaker 5: of course secular rules persecuted. I mean here in Rome
Speaker 5: we have the Venerable English College, which sent countless priests
Speaker 5: back to England to be martyred. So, you know, if
Speaker 5: they could be faithful in the midst of turbulence, we
Speaker 5: can too.
Speaker 1: And when you look at the really bad popes and
Speaker 1: the venal ones, some of whom you mentioned, Father, they
Speaker 1: did leave this amazing art and architecture. You know, they
Speaker 1: there was something that they were used for to contribute
Speaker 1: to the ages, even though they were pretty despicable characters themselves.
Speaker 1: But God is away of taking care of those people,
Speaker 1: and he has the final judgment.
Speaker 3: Thank God.
Speaker 1: The Arroyo Grande Conclave crew, we'll close it out there.
Speaker 1: This Vatican addition will continue. Don't miss our next episode.
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