1 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 1: You're listening to part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope 2 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:24,920 Speaker 2: Guess what, Mango? 4 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: What's that? Will? 5 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 2: All right? 6 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 3: I know you and I both love old ad campaigns. 7 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 3: They're so fun, so interesting. They're like a great sign 8 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 3: of the time. So I'm gonna go way back to 9 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,160 Speaker 3: nineteen twenty eight for this one, and I'm talking about 10 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 3: Lucky Strike here. Lucky Strike cigarettes, of course, and they 11 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 3: launched this splashy new ad campaign. It was designed to 12 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 3: attract female customers. So the ad showed this young woman 13 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,599 Speaker 3: with a chic flapper haircut, and under there was this 14 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 3: tagline and it said, to keep a slender figure, no 15 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 3: one can deny reach for a Lucky instead of a sweet. 16 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 3: And so the campaign was the brainchild of this Lucky 17 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 3: Strike president. His name was George Washington Hill, and he'd 18 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 3: been trying to figure out a way to combat the 19 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 3: stigma against women smoking in public. And this was his 20 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 3: big idea, encouraging weight conscious women to curb their appetite 21 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 3: for sweets by taking up a new habit smoking. 22 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: Which is probably a little worse for you, I mean 23 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 1: just eating some candy, right, I guess so, But it's 24 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: an interesting social experiment to see if you can get 25 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: them to put down one thing for another. 26 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:24,759 Speaker 3: And you know, today, honestly, we're of course horrified by 27 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:27,960 Speaker 3: these ads, but back then they were really effective. So 28 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 3: Lucky Strike sales soared more than two hundred percent, and 29 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 3: even proper society women began tucking packs of cigarettes and 30 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 3: their purses along with their lipstick and whatever else. But 31 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 3: there was one group of people who were outraged by 32 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 3: these ads. Can you guess who these people were? 33 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 2: Doctors? 34 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 3: No, no, this was the nineteen twenties. Make they loved 35 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 3: the cigarettes, so doctors were chain smoking. But I'm actually 36 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 3: talking about the candy industry. So they actually threatened Lucky 37 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 3: Strike with litigation for implying that sweets make you gain weight. 38 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 3: So intil the ads wound down, but marketing historians believe 39 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 3: that the single tagline led more women to start smoking 40 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 3: than any other promotional effort in history. 41 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 2: And there's the reason I bring this up, Mango. 42 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 3: It's that the whole campaign was based on the idea 43 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 3: that if you just make up your mind, you can 44 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 3: replace one habit with another. Now, this year, like every 45 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 3: New Year, a lot of folks celebrated by making resolutions 46 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 3: things like eating healthier, going to the gym, all that 47 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 3: sort of stuff. But the problem is changing a habit 48 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 3: isn't as easy as Lucky Strike wanted people to believe. 49 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: It's really crazy to think that a tobacco company might 50 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: lie to us. 51 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 3: It's just so surprising you're right about that. I mean, 52 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 3: if you can't trust Big Tobacco, who can you trust mango? Anyway, 53 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 3: all of this made me curious about the science of habits, 54 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 3: like how we developed them, why they're so hard to break, 55 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 3: and what it really takes to make changes in our 56 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 3: everyday lives. And because we're in the habit of tackling 57 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 3: tough questions around here, we found some answers, so let's 58 00:02:53,040 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 3: dive in. Hey, their podcast listeners, welcome to Part Time Genius. 59 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 3: I'm Will Pearson and as always I'm joined by my 60 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 3: good friend Mangesh hot Ticketter and over there in the 61 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 3: booth eating a salad with one hand while bench pressing 62 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 3: this enormous I can't even describe how big this barbell 63 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:29,799 Speaker 3: is massive just using that other hand. It's our friend 64 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 3: and producer Dylan Fagan. I would say I'm impressed by 65 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 3: his commitment to fitness, but I'm also just confused by 66 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 3: how quickly he seems to be doing both things at 67 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 3: the same time. 68 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: It's impressive, right, Yeah, eating and pumping, eating. 69 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 2: And pumping so good. 70 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 3: Anyway, today's episode is all about habits, and I wanted 71 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 3: to do this episode because I actually have a habit 72 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 3: that i'd like to break. 73 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 2: I'm illa, let you guess again, can you guess what 74 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 2: it is? 75 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: Well? First of all, I'm so glad that you have 76 00:03:57,760 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: a habit that you're trying to break, because I feel 77 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: like I'm trying to a million habits because I'm doing 78 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: the show on how to Live Longer and be healthier, 79 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: and I'm so bad at trying to start like a 80 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: million things at the same time. I keep track of them. 81 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 2: It's not easy. 82 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: But I mean I feel like for you, you are a 83 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 1: healthy eater. You run marathons half marathons. So maybe it 84 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 1: has something to do with like diet doctor peppers or dependent. 85 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 3: You know me so well, and I have talked about 86 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 3: this on the show before, but I do have a 87 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,039 Speaker 3: bit of a candy problem, and you know, I find 88 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 3: myself thinking about candy, I inevitably find myself eating candy. 89 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 3: So I need to break my candy habit, and I'm 90 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 3: thinking maybe I could replace it with a better habit. 91 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: So probably not a cigarette, because I think we've established 92 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 1: that's a bad idea. 93 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 3: Okay, well, I guess I need to put that one 94 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 3: aside now. I was actually thinking more along the lines 95 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 3: of eating more fruit. What do you think about that one? 96 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 1: I like that, And as you're thinking about, like infrasing 97 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: this new habit, it might actually help you to know 98 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: that you're definitely not alone. So people have been wrestling 99 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: with trying to implement better habits for hundreds even thousands 100 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: of years, and the meaning of the word habit has 101 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: evolved over time. So if you look back, Aristotle actually 102 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: equated habit with moral character, and he believed that good 103 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: character traits developed through a process of repetition or habituation, 104 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 1: and this is best done at a young age, in 105 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 1: his opinion, so you enter adulthood properly and prepared for 106 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 1: the moral life. He framed this kind of as a 107 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: learning by doing, so if you want to be a 108 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: brave person, you can develop that trait by doing brave things. 109 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: But he didn't see habituation as a mindless or even 110 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: mechanical activity. You really had to internalize these qualities and 111 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,919 Speaker 1: think about them and incorporate them into your character. And 112 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: the idea was that those who developed good habits became 113 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 1: good and virtuous people, and that in turn guided all 114 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:51,160 Speaker 1: their subsequent choices and it rewarded them with a happy life. 115 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 116 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 3: I mean it sounds so much more noble than when 117 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,239 Speaker 3: you think about like a lot of goals that people 118 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 3: will set or that will set, you know, like I 119 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 3: want to run on a treadmill three times a week 120 00:05:58,760 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 3: or something like that. 121 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 2: Like I just like the direction of this. 122 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, but you can still see how we associate habits 123 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 1: with moral character, even though the modern definition of the 124 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 1: term has actually expanded to a whole bunch of things, right, Like, 125 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: so take exercise, for example. Someone might tell you that 126 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 1: you're being good for going to the gym, But just 127 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: because you're doing a healthy activity, it doesn't mean you're 128 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: a good person. And by the same token, like skipping 129 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: the gym doesn't make you a bad person. You're just 130 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: not getting those physical benefits of exercise. Yeah. 131 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, as long as we're talking about morality here, 132 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 3: isn't a habit? Also, what nuns wear? Do we need 133 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 3: to shift topics? 134 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 1: Here, yes, and weirdly, I did look into that, and 135 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 1: the earliest known use of the word habit in English 136 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,479 Speaker 1: dates to the year twelve twenty five, and originally it 137 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 1: didn't just refer to nuns. It meant any specific way 138 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,840 Speaker 1: of dressing associated with an occupation or an activity. That 139 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: use of the word has mostly fallen out of use, 140 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: except in the case of nuns, and weirdly, horseback riders 141 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: who still refer to a riding habit to describe their outfits, 142 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: which actually means a horseback riding. None could wear a 143 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 1: habit over her habit. 144 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 3: I actually did not know that about horseback riders. That's interesting, 145 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 3: all right. Well, I want to jump ahead to eighteen 146 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 3: fifty nine, which is the year a Scottish author with 147 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 3: an incredible name, Samuel Smile, published the world's first self 148 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 3: help book, which just feels so appropriate. And it was called, 149 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 3: wait for it, self help. 150 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: It's a pretty self explanatory and I hope the book 151 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: was a little more creative than that title. 152 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 2: I don't know, not really. 153 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 3: It was a litany of these mid Victorian values like 154 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 3: self reliance and hard work, and you know, Smiles believed 155 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 3: in individualism, free trade and sort of pulling yourself up 156 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 3: by the bootstraps. And that's probably because he'd watched his 157 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 3: mother support eleven children on her own after their father 158 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 3: died in a cholera epidemic. And Smiles studied medicine, and 159 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 3: then he worked in business and in journalism, and finally 160 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 3: he started giving these lectures about self improvement. And was 161 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 3: he successful. Very so Self Help was a massive success. 162 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 3: It sold over quarter of a million copies by the 163 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 3: time that Smiles died, and it was translated into a 164 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 3: dozen languages. And much like Aristotle, Smiles saw habits as 165 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 3: an active reflection of character, so he wrote, quote, Man, 166 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 3: it has been said, is a bundle of habits, and 167 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 3: a habit is second nature. Principles, in fact are but 168 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 3: the names which we assigned to habits for principles are words, 169 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 3: but the habits are the things themselves. 170 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: I like, how I realize you're saying man is in humankind. 171 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: But but at first it sounded like he's like, man, man, 172 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: it's a bundle of habits. 173 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:36,559 Speaker 2: That's right, Man, It's just I think maybe it was 174 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 2: supposed to mean both. 175 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, but what was Smiles saying here? 176 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 3: I guess and effect what he's saying is you know, 177 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 3: it's one thing to say I believe in hard work, 178 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 3: but the real value is developing a habit of actually 179 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 3: working hard. Smiles tells the story of a young man 180 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 3: named George Leclair who was born in a well off family. 181 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 3: He's lazy and he's unmotivated, and as a result, he 182 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 3: develops this habit of sleeping late instead of getting up 183 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 3: and being productive. So eventually he realizes how much time 184 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 3: he's wasting, so he vows to break this bad habit, 185 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 3: and he tries, and he tries, but he can't get 186 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 3: up on time. So he offers his servant, Joseph, a reward. 187 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 3: He says, if he manages to drag him out of 188 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:17,719 Speaker 3: bed by six, Joseph would earn a crown, and by 189 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 3: this he means a coin, not like a royal headgear. 190 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: So does Joseph make that money? 191 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 3: Well, it certainly isn't easy for him. Joseph starts coming 192 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 3: in to wake up his boss at six, and George 193 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 3: yells and screams and threatens to fire him, so Joseph 194 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:32,719 Speaker 3: SLINKs away and lets him sleep late again. I mean, 195 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 3: this is clearly an abusive workplace, but Joseph wants the 196 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 3: extra money. So one day he gets fed up, he 197 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 3: throws a basin of water at George. It finally gets 198 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 3: him out of bed on time, and from then on 199 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 3: he starts getting up early and starts working right after breakfast, 200 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 3: eventually becoming an author of several important books about the 201 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:53,839 Speaker 3: natural sciences. So, according to Smiles, for forty years afterward, 202 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 3: the once lazy George got up every single day and 203 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 3: wrote from nine am to two pm, and again from 204 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 3: five pm to nine pm. 205 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 2: Wow. 206 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: And so all it took was a fed up servant 207 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: with a bucket of water and a tiny reward. Okay, 208 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: so we have to take a quick break, but when 209 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: we come back we'll find out the scientific reason why 210 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 1: habits are so tenacious and why going on autopilot is 211 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: actually a good thing except when it is not. Don't 212 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: go anywhere. Welcome back to part time genius and our 213 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 1: deep dive into the science of habits. Okay, Well, so 214 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: before the break, you were telling us about George Leclair 215 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: and the absurd lens he went to in order to 216 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: stop sleeping late. And aside from being a weird funny tale, 217 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 1: the story illustrates how sticky habits can be right like 218 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: this guy wants to wake up early, but he still 219 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:01,679 Speaker 1: throws a tantrums. Poor servant tries to get him up 220 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 1: and change his behavior, and that brings us to the 221 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: great William James, who is the father of modern psychology. 222 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:12,559 Speaker 1: James realized that the force of habit was everywhere, even 223 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 1: in nature, so in his landmark book The Principles of Psychology, 224 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: James describes the laws of nature as quote immutable habits 225 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 1: which the elementary sorts of matter follow in their actions 226 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: and reactions upon each other. And he also comes up 227 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: with a description of human habits that we still use today. So, 228 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: according to James, habits are sequences that we've repeated so 229 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: often that they actually perpetuate themselves. So in other words, 230 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: we no longer devote conscious thought or attention to them. Now. Obviously, 231 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: as in the case of George Leclair, we run into 232 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: problems when these automated habits like sleeping late, no longer 233 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: aligned with our goals. In his case, he wanted to 234 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: wake up early to write. But in general, James saw 235 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: the habit mechanism as a good thing. He believed that 236 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: shifting parts of daily life into habit mode kind of 237 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 1: frees us to think deeply about other actions and to 238 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: quote develop our higher powers of mind. 239 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 3: I mean, it's kind of like how you hear about 240 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 3: CEOs who wear the same outfit every day. It's I 241 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 3: guess it's just like one less thing to think about. 242 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember hearing about Obama doing that to sort 243 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: of store up his will power. But to look more 244 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: closely at this phenomena, why don't we take a look 245 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: inside your brain? 246 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 2: Wait, my brain specifically. 247 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: M So, let's welcome the audience in now. Let's say 248 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: you're home, it's late afternoon, and you walk past your 249 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: center for excellence, the candic cabinet, which we can assume 250 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: is never empty. Next thing you know, you've got a 251 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: piece of candy in your mouth, even though you aren't hungry, 252 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 1: and you made a resolution to eat fewer sweets. The 253 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: thing is, you shifted into autopilot without realizing it. And 254 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: the reason for this has to do with a group 255 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: of neuron clusters deep in your brain. They're called the 256 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 1: basal ganglia, and they're kind of like a control panel. 257 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:57,679 Speaker 1: They connect with other parts of the brain to send 258 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: signals back and forth. And it's a complex and somewhat 259 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: mysterious reason that manages things like voluntary movement, decision making, 260 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: reward processing, and a whole lot more. But in your case, 261 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: seeing the candy cabinet was a trigger that activated a 262 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:15,079 Speaker 1: specific brain circuit associated with the habit of eating candy. 263 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: It didn't engage the networks involved with goal focused action, 264 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: So your behavior and your resolution just kind of sailed 265 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: past each other. 266 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 3: So by goal focused action, you mean like when I 267 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 3: consciously think to myself, like I want to do X, 268 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 3: and then I take whatever steps are necessary to then 269 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 3: do it right. 270 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 1: But compare your autopilot experience to someone who doesn't eat 271 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: candy that often. Let's say they've had a tough day 272 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 1: at work and they decide they want a sweet treat. 273 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: The brain is consciously working through the steps, like they 274 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: identify this feeling, they decide to indulge. They remember where 275 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:50,839 Speaker 1: they hid that box of chocolate from the kids, They 276 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 1: pull it out, pick the piece that looks the tastiest. 277 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 1: And the thing is this process also involves the basil kanglia, 278 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 1: but it's a completely different network than the networks associate 279 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: with habitual behavior. In other words, it's lighting up a 280 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: whole different part of your circuit board. 281 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 3: So what happens if this person starts reaching for the 282 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 3: chocolates more often, Like, does the habit section of the 283 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 3: circuit board start lighting up eventually? 284 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 1: Yeah? 285 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 2: It does. 286 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: So there are these researchers, Henry Yinn and Barbara Knowlton, 287 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: and they did a huge analysis of basil ganglia activity 288 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: back in two thousand and six, and one of the 289 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: things they found was that with repetition, the network's involved 290 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: with quote action control change. Right, so there's a handoff 291 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: from what they called the goal driven associative network to 292 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 1: the habit network. So you could be doing the exact 293 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: same action eating a piece of candy, but it's being 294 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: driven by a different part of your brain, which brings 295 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: us to a really important conclusion, Right, habits aren't defined 296 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: by what we're doing. They're defined by how we're doing them. 297 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: So if it's happening automatically without much conscious thought, whatever 298 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: it is is actually a habit. 299 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 3: And I guess that's pretty cool, but maybe also kind 300 00:14:57,800 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 3: of depressing because I mean it sounds like you're saying 301 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 3: order to break a habit or gain a habit, we 302 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 3: actually have to rewire our brains. 303 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: I mean, the good news is our brains have plasticity, right, 304 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: They are completely capable of change, learning and making new connections. 305 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: And even at my old age, and I know you're 306 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: a little younger than me, it just takes a little bit. 307 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 3: Of effort, right, like two months, I think, you know, 308 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 3: the more I think about this, the more I think 309 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 3: it might be better if we had fewer habits, Like 310 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,119 Speaker 3: wouldn't we make better choices if we did everything consciously 311 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 3: and actually try to avoid letting the habit network take 312 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 3: over in the first place. 313 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I actually wondered about this as well. But 314 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: the thing is, we actually need both systems, both this 315 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: automatic one and this goal directed one, because they're not 316 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: completely disconnected. They work together in way scientists are still 317 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: trying to unravel. But over the years, research has shown 318 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: that William James was right, as are the CEOs who 319 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: wear the same outfit every day. Automatic habitual behavior helps 320 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: us act really quickly and it doesn't use up a 321 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: lot of cognitive resource, and that really does do give 322 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: our brains more bandwidth for navigating new and complex situations 323 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: or even things like emergencies. Imagine how exhausting it would 324 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: be if every morning you had to think about walking 325 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:13,359 Speaker 1: into the bathroom picking up your toothbrush, uncapping the toothpaste, 326 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: applying the paste, putting the cap back on the toothpaste. Right, 327 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: you have to brush, you have to rinse, you have 328 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: to put the toothbrush away. You need a nap before 329 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: you're like, you even made it to the breakfast table. 330 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 3: That just made me tired. Here and you describe it. 331 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 3: I realized how much work we're doing. But actually, you 332 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 3: know what it makes me think of is driving. Like 333 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 3: there are certain routes that I take all the time, 334 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 3: and it's not that I'm not paying attention to the road, 335 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 3: but I'm not really watching for street signs or checking 336 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 3: the GPS. It just you just know where to turn 337 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 3: because you've done it so many times. And you know, 338 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 3: while I'm driving, I sometimes start thinking about an idea 339 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 3: for the show. 340 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 2: Or a meeting that I need to prepare for. 341 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 3: But if I'm driving someplace new and I actually have 342 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 3: to think about it, you know it wouldn't be easy 343 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 3: to do that. 344 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was in LA for work and I made 345 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: the mistake of running a car. And honestly, if I could 346 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: not do that much thinking when I. 347 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 2: Was driving a round that foot for sure. 348 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 1: Let's head back in your brain for a minute, which 349 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 1: you know is familiar territory for all our listeners. Listeners now, plant. 350 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 1: So you are at home and you need to go 351 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: to the grocery store. You grab the grocery bags and 352 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,400 Speaker 1: get in your car, and that triggers your basil ganglia 353 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: to activate the drive to the grocery store habit network. Right, 354 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: So you start your car, pull out the driveway, head 355 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 1: down the street, and so on until you get to 356 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:25,880 Speaker 1: the store. And this habit exists because over time, you've 357 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,159 Speaker 1: been rewarded for doing it. When you get in your 358 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: car and follow a specific set of directions, you reach 359 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: your destination and your brain goes you know, ding ding ding, 360 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: I won right. So naturally, the next time you have 361 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,199 Speaker 1: the same context and trigger, it has an incentive to 362 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: follow the same steps to get to that same reward. 363 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 1: But let's say something's changed this time. Right, So, yesterday 364 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: your neighbor told you that the road to the store 365 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 1: is closed for repairs. There is this other route, but 366 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: it means going ten minutes out of your way. So 367 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: what do you think happens when you get into your 368 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: car today. 369 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 3: I mean, I want to think that i'd remember the 370 00:17:57,680 --> 00:17:59,919 Speaker 3: road closure and take the alternate route. But I know 371 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 3: this because it's actually happened to me so many times. 372 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:03,880 Speaker 3: I have a feeling I just go the normal way, 373 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 3: then get to the roadblock, and then be annoyed with myself. 374 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:06,440 Speaker 2: Right. 375 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, and actually there have been studies done about this. 376 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: It is super common and weird because we assume we're 377 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: these rational, goal oriented, reward motivated creatures. But even though 378 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 1: you've been told you need to take a different route 379 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: to reach your goal and earn this award of being 380 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 1: at the grocery store as quickly as possible, your habit 381 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 1: network kicks in and it overrides that knowledge and it 382 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: sends you the wrong way. 383 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, It's like sometimes you've ever been in like an uber, 384 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,120 Speaker 3: a lyft or something like that, and you know that 385 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 3: the driver is going the slower way because they're not 386 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,120 Speaker 3: following GPS or something like that, but it's the way 387 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 3: you know, they know they're supposed to go every time. 388 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 3: But anyway, I actually read this fascinating study that looked 389 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 3: at this phenomenon in the context of movie theater popcorn. 390 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 3: So these researchers named Windy Wood and David Neil, they 391 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 3: actually made a ton of popcorn and they just left 392 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,080 Speaker 3: it sitting out in their lab for about a week. 393 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 1: Which must have made the lab smell incredible. 394 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 3: I'm sure that it did. And I know what a 395 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 3: huge fan of popcorn you are. That's that sort of 396 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 3: your candy. But they didn't specify in this case. But 397 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,160 Speaker 3: we all know popcorn is best right after its mate. 398 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 3: That stuff that set in the lab got really, really stale. 399 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 3: So Wendy and David hosted a movie night at a 400 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 3: local cinema. They gave out free popcorn. Half the audience 401 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 3: got a staleback, half got a freshly popped back, and 402 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 3: so when the trailers ended, they had people turning their 403 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 3: popcorn bags and they measured how much had been eaten. 404 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 3: They also asked everyone to fill out a survey indicating 405 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 3: how often they popcorn at the movies, and the results 406 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 3: were pretty incredible. So an average, people who were not 407 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 3: regular popcorn eaters ate about forty percent of the stale popcorn. 408 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 3: They started eating it, then they realized it wasn't very 409 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,399 Speaker 3: good and they stopped. But people who were accustomed to 410 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 3: eating popcorn at the movies ate over sixty percent of 411 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 3: the stale bags. And the crazy part is Wendy and 412 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 3: Dave also asked people what they thought about the popcorn. 413 00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 3: Everyone agreed that the stale stuff tasted bad, but the 414 00:19:59,119 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 3: habit it. 415 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 2: Still on out That is wild. 416 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 1: And it's also amazing that, like, the people who weren't 417 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,120 Speaker 1: regular popcorn eaters still ate forty percent of the stale popcorse. Seriously, 418 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: that's crazy, but you know it's proof of the power 419 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 1: of context and also triggers. Right, Like, some people only 420 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: eat popcorn at the movie, so being at the theater 421 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: is this powerful cue that it's popcorn time, even if 422 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: the popcorn isn't worth eating. 423 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:25,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true. But you know, there's actually one other 424 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 3: detail that I found interesting. So Wendy and Dave repeated 425 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,360 Speaker 3: their experiment, and the second time they did it, they 426 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 3: told people they could only eat with their non dominant hand. 427 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 3: So this time, even people with the strong self reported 428 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 3: popcorn habits only ate about thirty percent of the stale 429 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 3: popcorn in their bag. 430 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: And is that because it's hard to grab as much 431 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: popcorn with your non dominant hand. 432 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 3: No, it's actually not really the takeaway, although some news 433 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 3: reports did get a hold of this study and claim 434 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 3: that eating with your other hand makes you eat less 435 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 3: but according to the researchers, using a non dominant hand 436 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 3: simply introduced an element of friction to the habit, and so, 437 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:02,959 Speaker 3: in other words, people had to think about what they 438 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 3: were doing as they were eating, so it wasn't quite 439 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 3: as automatic as it was before. And when they thought 440 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 3: about it, they realized popcorn is gross. I don't want 441 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 3: to eat it, So their conscious brains overrode that habit mechanism, 442 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 3: which is wild. Wendy and David pointed out that the 443 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 3: opposite could be true as well, So slowing down, paying 444 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 3: closer attention to what they were eating could also help 445 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:23,880 Speaker 3: us enjoy it more. 446 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: But it's not going to make stale popcorn taste good. 447 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 2: No, that's definitely true. 448 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 3: All right, Well, after we take another quick break, we'll 449 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,640 Speaker 3: hear from one of the world's leading experts on behavior 450 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 3: change to figure out how I can use these concepts 451 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,399 Speaker 3: to tinker with my brain networks and modify my candy habit. 452 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 2: So stay tuned. Okay, Well, so far. 453 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: We've talked a lot about how habits form, why they're helpful, 454 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 1: and just how durable they become over time. But now 455 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: it's time to get into the real nitty gritty how 456 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,439 Speaker 1: we can change our habits, and I actually found the 457 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 1: perfect person to explain it. 458 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 4: I'm Katie Milkman, and I'm a professor at the Wharton 459 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 4: School at the University of Pennsylvania. I'm also the author 460 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 4: of the book How to Change, and I co direct 461 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 4: a research center called the Behavior Change for Good Initiative, 462 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 4: where we study the science of what it takes to 463 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 4: make change. 464 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: It's funny too, because we spoke to Katie last month, 465 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:30,959 Speaker 1: right after the New Year, and she told me it's 466 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: a busy time for her, like she gets lots of 467 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,919 Speaker 1: media requests because everyone's trying to figure out the secret 468 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 1: to keeping their New Year's resolutions. And that led to 469 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 1: my first question, Is there any magic to picking a 470 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 1: date like January first as a time to make or 471 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 1: break a habit? And it turns out there actually is. 472 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,879 Speaker 1: Katie refers to this as the fresh start effect. New 473 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 1: Year's Day is a classic example, but there are others, 474 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: like your birthday, or your first day at a new job, 475 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 1: or maybe why you want to go to the gym 476 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: on a Monday at the start out of a new week. 477 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 4: All of these moments are chapter breaks in the way 478 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:06,919 Speaker 4: we tell the story of our lives. And one thing 479 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 4: that's really interesting about humans and the way we think 480 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 4: about time is that we don't think about it linearly. 481 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 4: We think about it like we're characters in a book 482 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 4: and we're living through chapters, and at these chapter breaks, 483 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,360 Speaker 4: we feel like there's a discontinuity in who we are. 484 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 4: So if you talk to somebody in the new year, 485 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,880 Speaker 4: right after the start of January and they're talking about 486 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 4: something that happened to them last year, they have a 487 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 4: sense of disconnect. That was the old met last year 488 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 4: and this is the new me. 489 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 1: And that disconnect helps change our habits. Yeah, it can. 490 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: It has to do with a general sense of motivation, 491 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 1: but also increased awareness of what we're doing. These chapter 492 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: breaks are a time to take stock and pay closer 493 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,399 Speaker 1: attention to our behaviors, so we can break out of 494 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:53,479 Speaker 1: that automation and really make a conscious decision about what 495 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: to change. 496 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 3: You know, I wish somebody had told me this back 497 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,680 Speaker 3: on I know, like December thirtieth or thirty first, right. 498 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I know you say that because I've spent 499 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: so much time in your brain this episode. So I 500 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: actually have a plan. I'm declaring next Monday, the official 501 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: twenty twenty six, Part Time Genius Habit Change, Fresh Start Day. 502 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,199 Speaker 1: We are welcoming our audiences. If there's a habit you 503 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: want to make or when you want to break, just 504 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: mark your calendars. On March second, you have a blank 505 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 1: slate for change. 506 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 3: And if you listen to this later, what we meant 507 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 3: to say was April second. So I actually really love this, 508 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 3: And on Monday, I'm going to start my new habit 509 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,360 Speaker 3: of limiting sweets and eating fruit every single day. Man, 510 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 3: I'm never going to fail, and it's going to take 511 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 3: some will power, but I'm going to be really disciplined 512 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 3: and I'm going to do it. 513 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 2: Ah. 514 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 1: I like that spirit, but I think you're wrong. 515 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 2: Well, what do you mean wrong? 516 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:42,959 Speaker 1: Let's let Katie explain. 517 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,400 Speaker 4: Nike has some great advertising and they're just do it campaign, 518 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 4: but it is one of my least favorite slogans because 519 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 4: it's so misaligned with what research shows. It's not that 520 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 4: we can just do it, it's that we actually need 521 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 4: to set ourselves up for success and not try to 522 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 4: push through the pain or you know what doesn't till 523 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,439 Speaker 4: he makes you stronger. Those messages are really misaligned with 524 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 4: what evidence shows works, which is not to think I'm 525 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 4: going to just buckle down and use my willpower to 526 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 4: achieve this, But rather, how can you make it incredibly easy, 527 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 4: incredibly fun and rewarding and instantly gratifying and social and 528 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 4: unforgettable to pursue your goals. 529 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 2: You're saying, I don't need to suffer. 530 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: No, And in fact, the more you suffer, the harder 531 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: it is for new habits to take root. So remember 532 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 1: how we talked about how reward followed by repetition is 533 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: what locks habit patterns into your brain. If every time 534 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,880 Speaker 1: you reach for an apple you think I don't want this, 535 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: your brain never registers it as a reward, and that 536 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 1: makes you less likely to repeat the behavior, and that 537 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: makes the habit less likely to. 538 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 3: Form some weird mental jiu jitsu mango. So you can 539 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 3: turn something you don't like doing into a habit if 540 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,399 Speaker 3: you turn it into something that you like doing well. 541 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 3: In my case, maybe instead of buying the usual apples, 542 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,880 Speaker 3: oranges or bananas, I guess I could buy some fancier 543 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 3: fruits that maybe I would enjoy even more. And maybe 544 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 3: instead of just eating at my desk while I'm answering emails, 545 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 3: I could take a few minutes for like a real break, 546 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 3: walk around and enjoy the fruit. 547 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that fancy fruit break. You're taking. Fancy 548 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 1: fruit break, Katie also told me. Katie also told me 549 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,160 Speaker 1: about a concept she calls temptation bundling, where you link 550 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: a desired habit with a different reward. Like when she 551 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,160 Speaker 1: was crazy busy with postgrad work, she developed a gym 552 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: habit by making a rule she could only listen to 553 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,120 Speaker 1: her favorite audiobooks when she was working out. 554 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 4: I'd throw on my exercise clothes in the dead of 555 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 4: Boston winter and basically rush over to the gym to 556 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 4: find out what happened to my favorite characters. The other 557 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 4: thing that was amazing is not only did it motivate 558 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,400 Speaker 4: me to go, but I didn't really notice the pain 559 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 4: of the workout while I was there. But it could 560 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 4: be anything any chore, right. It could be you only 561 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 4: let yourself listen to your favorite podcast while you're scrubbing 562 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 4: the bathroom floor, or you know, cleaning your desk. 563 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 3: You know, I hope there's somebody out there listening to 564 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 3: Part Time Genius exclusively while scrubbing the bathroom floor. It's 565 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 3: just a nice idea, all right. My next question is 566 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 3: how long does all of this take? Like I read 567 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 3: somewhere that it takes twenty one days to form a habit, 568 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,640 Speaker 3: which obviously is an overnight but it doesn't seem too hard. 569 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:11,360 Speaker 2: That's not that bad. 570 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, so we've all heard this twenty one days thing, 571 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 1: and it's actually a myth. It comes from a nineteen 572 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 1: sixty self help book called psycho Cybernetics, and it was 573 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,439 Speaker 1: written by a plastic surgeon named Maxwell Maltz. It's not 574 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 1: clear where you got the number twenty one from, but 575 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: there is no evidence for this. There's actually no magic 576 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,919 Speaker 1: number for habit formation because there is such a wide 577 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: range of behaviors that habits can be. But repetition is 578 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 1: the key. So something like going to the gym, you're 579 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,159 Speaker 1: probably only going to do it once a day. But 580 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: if you're trying to develop a habit like turning off 581 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 1: the light every time you leave a room, you can 582 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 1: repeat that multiple times a day, so it might take 583 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: less time. 584 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 2: To become a habit. 585 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,880 Speaker 1: But if you're worrying about slip ups, you really shouldn't 586 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 1: worry about that. Katie says setbacks don't necessarily stop us 587 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,360 Speaker 1: from reaching our goal. In fact, she told me about 588 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: a study where people were told to go to the 589 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: gym seven days a week, but they had two get 590 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,640 Speaker 1: out of jail free cards and they could use those 591 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 1: on any days when they didn't feel up to it, 592 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: and those people had an easier time forming a gym 593 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: going habit than people who were told to go to 594 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: the gym five days a week. 595 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,919 Speaker 3: No matter what, that's pretty interesting, all right, So you 596 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 3: focus on repetition, not a magic number on the calendar, 597 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 3: don't freak out if you have a setback, and build 598 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 3: some flexibility into the plan. Like this all seems doable 599 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 3: in terms of adding healthy snacking habits to my life. 600 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,120 Speaker 3: But is there anything else I should be thinking about 601 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 3: in order to break that candy habit? It's pretty intense, Mango. 602 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 1: So you mentioned it earlier, but when you were talking 603 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: about popcorn and that whole study, like friction could be 604 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: one of the answers. 605 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 3: Okay, of course, Like if eating candy requires more effort, 606 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 3: I'll have to think about it more and that gives 607 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 3: me a better shot at overriding the automatic habit. Actually, 608 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 3: it occurs to me that I have a literal candy 609 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 3: cabinet in my house, so walking past it is such 610 00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 3: a trigger, Mango, like, it is so nice to open 611 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 3: that cabinet so I could put my candy stash in 612 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 3: a different cupboard where it's out of sight, or even 613 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 3: give I don't know, I don't want to say this, 614 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 3: mega b baby, give some of it away. 615 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: Don't say that. Don't say that, and I don't want 616 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: to say it. 617 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 2: Nevermind. Take that out, Dylan. 618 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 3: I'd probably eat less if I had to go to 619 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 3: the store every time I wanted a candy bar. And 620 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 3: I guess that's obvious, but it's true. 621 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, those are great ideas. But if you do all 622 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: that and it stills I'm working for you. There is 623 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 1: one more thing you can try. 624 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 2: Here's Katie. 625 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 4: Another strategy that's pretty well studied and that's a little 626 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 4: more dramatic, is to use what's called a formal commitment 627 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 4: device or a hard commitment device, and that is where 628 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 4: you impose a more meaningful cost on yourself for failing 629 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 4: to achieve a goal or continuing with a habit. What 630 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 4: do I mean by cost, I literally mean a fine. 631 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 4: So imagine putting money on the line that you will 632 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 4: have to forfeit if you stick to that bad habit 633 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 4: and choosing a referee who will hold you accountable. 634 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: Okay, so like a swear jar here exactly. And because 635 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: I I'm such a good friend, I volunteer to help 636 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: hold you accountable. If you want, you can venmo me 637 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 1: like a dollar every time you accidentally eat candy instead 638 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: of fruit, and I'm just here for you. 639 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 2: I really hope it doesn't come to that. 640 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: There's actually another level of this that Katie told me 641 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: about where your accountability partner donates the money to a 642 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: cause that you. 643 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 3: Hate, like the Society to Eradicate Sweets or you know 644 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 3: one of those awful organizations. 645 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 2: I mean, that is diabolical, Mango. 646 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: But it is a way to overcome really tenacious habit blocks. 647 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 1: Because if you're giving money to a friend or you're 648 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 1: marking it for a charity support, that financial cost is 649 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 1: kind of the same, but the emotional cost is less. 650 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: You can tell yourself, well, at least I'm helping this 651 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,479 Speaker 1: good cause, right, And it feels very different if slipping 652 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: up means you're supporting a cause you absolutely do not 653 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 1: believe it. 654 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 3: I feel like that is like the nuclear option. But 655 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 3: let's check in a few months and see if we 656 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 3: need to go there. But I got to say, Mango, 657 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 3: I really appreciate how much effort you put into helping 658 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 3: me figure this all out. 659 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, the obviously i'm your friend, but also 660 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 1: the research is clear that social support helps with habit modification. 661 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: So if anyone listening wants to help a friend who's 662 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: trying to change their habits, Katie says, you can do 663 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 1: that in several ways. You can volunteer to try something 664 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,959 Speaker 1: new with them, you can help hold them accountable, and 665 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: you can use your social network to introduce them to 666 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 1: people who have experience with whatever it is they're trying 667 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 1: to do. But you said it's also important just to 668 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: be a source of positivity for people. 669 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 4: One of the things that we know as a barrier 670 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 4: in some cases to goal achievement can be maybe I 671 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 4: don't believe in myself that it's really feasible for someone 672 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 4: like me, And so the messages that we get from 673 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 4: our friends matter. So you can think about the implicit 674 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 4: messages you're sending with your actions and the people you 675 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 4: introduce someone to, but you can also think about the 676 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 4: explicit supportive messages that build confidence. 677 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 3: Okay, so you think I can do this, Mango, because 678 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 3: starting one day I'm swapping my candy habit for a 679 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 3: healthy fruit of healthy fancy fruit habit. 680 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: I should say, well, I don't think you can do it. 681 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: I know you can do it, and if not, I'll 682 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 1: gladly take your money and do something terrible with it. 683 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 2: That's excellent, all right. 684 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 3: Well for that, my friend, you deserve today's trophy. Congratulations. 685 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 1: I will take it. And for everyone else who wants 686 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 1: to change a habit, remember this coming Monday, March second 687 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 1: is our official fresh start day, which is weird that 688 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: we didn't do it on March fourth because we were 689 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: supposed to March fourth towards something you want, but March 690 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: second makes a lot more sense to us here. Give 691 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: us a call at three O two four oh five 692 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 1: five nine two five to tell us what habit you'd 693 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: like to change, or you can send us an email 694 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: at high Geniuses at gmail dot com. That's hi Geniuses 695 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. You can also find us on 696 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: blue Sky and Instagram at part time Genius and we'll 697 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: have an update for you later this year to see 698 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: how Will's doing on that candy habit. Big thanks to 699 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: Katie Milkman for speaking with us. Be sure to check 700 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 1: out the links to her work in the show notes. 701 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 1: I want to give a special shout out to her newsletter, 702 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 1: which is called Milkman Delivery. I just love that. Thanks 703 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 1: also to Kate Horwitz who helped us out with research, 704 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: and to Anna Rubinova, who edited this episode. We will 705 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: be back next week, but in the meantime, from Will, Dylan, Gabe, Mary, 706 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: and myself, thank you so much for listening. Part Time 707 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 1: Genius is a production of Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio. It is 708 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: hosted by my good pal Will Pearson, who I've known 709 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 1: for almost three decades now. That is insane to me. 710 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: I'm the Utaco host, Mangeshatikular aka Mango. Our producer is 711 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 1: Mary Phillips Sandy. She's actually a super producer. I'm going 712 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 1: to fix that in post. Our writer is Gabe Lucier, 713 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: who I've also known for like a decade at this point, 714 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: maybe more. Dylan Fagan is in the booth. He is 715 00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: always dressed up, always cheering us on, and always writing 716 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 1: hit record and then mix the show after he does 717 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 1: a great job. I also want to shout out the 718 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: executive producers from iHeart my good pals Katrina and Norvel 719 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 1: and Ali Perry. We have social media support from Calypso 720 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: Rallis if you like our videos, that is all Calypso's handiwork. 721 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 722 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,319 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or tune in wherever you listen to your 723 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,720 Speaker 1: favorite shows. That's it from us here at Part Time Genius. 724 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening