WEBVTT - Penn Badgley 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.640 Did you view yourself as the outsider on the ship? 0:00:02.680 --> 0:00:05.640 In life? On the show? On the show, did I 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:08.480 view Dan as the outsider? As Dan as the outsider? 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:11.239 I mean, that's who he's identified as. But to me, 0:00:11.280 --> 0:00:13.440 the joke is always like, Bro, how much more on 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:15.400 the inside could you be? You're just not in the 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:17.680 deepest of the inner circle, but you're in the same school. 0:00:18.320 --> 0:00:20.480 You're you're a you're a white boy, you know, you're 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:22.639 you know your dad was a rock star, and you 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:24.720 live in a three million dollar apartment rather than a 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:27.600 thirty million dollar mansions. So like, if you think you're 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:30.000 on the outside, Dan Humphrey, I'm sorry, but you have 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:37.440 a lot of learning to do. Hi. My name is 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:48.320 Penn Badgeley and I am you. Hi everybody. As always, 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:52.040 I'm your host, Brian bamb Gartner, and today we are 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:57.240 truly going off the beat. Thanks for joining me. Today's guest. 0:00:57.600 --> 0:01:02.120 He's charming, he's thoughtful, he's incredible, likable, and he plays 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:07.040 a serial killer on TV. I'm talking, of course, about 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:12.280 the uber talented Penn Badgeley, a man who is as 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:16.160 much at home on his podcast talking about the awkward 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:21.000 middle school years as he is luring people to their 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:26.920 deaths on the hit show you talk about range. Pen 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:29.280 and I we have a lot in common. We're both actors, 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:33.120 we both love many of the same people, some of 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:37.080 whom co starred with him on Gossip Girl of course, 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:44.440 where he played Dan Humphrey. And we're both always watching. No, 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:48.919 not really, but seriously. I loved hearing about Penn's unique 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:52.080 journey growing up on television and now he's reflecting on 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:56.640 it over twenty years later with his podcast pod Crushed, 0:01:56.720 --> 0:02:01.320 which coincidentally I'm a guest on this month as well. 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:03.559 Give that a listen if you want to hear about 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:09.480 my awkward junior high years. Can't wait for you to 0:02:09.520 --> 0:02:12.359 hear this one. I won't make you wait any longer. 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:22.480 Here he is my new friend, Penn Badgeley, Bubble and Squeak. 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:29.640 I love it. Bubble and Squeak on Bubble and Squeaker 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:43.920 Cookie every month left over from the night before. Pen. 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:47.639 It's great to see you. Where are you? You're I'm 0:02:47.639 --> 0:02:49.680 in New York City. You're in New York You're in 0:02:49.840 --> 0:02:54.440 You're in a very official I podcast studio. It's branded 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:57.000 and everything it is well so this is it's it's 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:02.280 funny because the first year of producing and recording our podcast, 0:03:02.880 --> 0:03:06.440 I was in a different super jan Kie environment every 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:08.880 for every interview. And actually, if you look at some 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:10.640 of the stuff we've put together on social media, when 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:12.160 we weren't even trying to be visual, but we just 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:15.160 had some zoom footage, I'm in a different place every time. 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:18.880 The lighting is terrible, Like I have facial here and 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:21.840 that's very unkempt, whereas now it's there, but it's kempt 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:26.200 and it's m Yeah. And so now I'm like getting 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:28.000 used to. I get on the train and I come 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:29.720 and it's like taking care of and we have our 0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:32.079 engineer here, and we have our producer. It's like, it's yeah, 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:36.360 it's if this is podcasting, signed me up? This is it? Now. 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:40.840 I have to ask you, this is like such a lame, lame, 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:45.400 lame Hollywood question. Do we know each other? Did we 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:48.520 know from back in the day? But I don't think so, 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:52.560 you don't. But here's why it's easy to be somewhat certain. 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:55.000 I've lived in New York for the last fifteen years, 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:58.320 and I really don't run into people the same way. 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:04.280 We'll see. Here's the thing. I randomly became, which, of 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:06.320 course we'll talk about Gossip Girl in a little bit. 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:13.400 I randomly became friends slash friendly with virtually your entire 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:18.039 cast in New York City, really so like Ed and 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:24.280 Sebastian stand Chase and all sort of through Jeff z 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:28.839 or Ah. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's then you 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:34.080 know what it were you it would have been in 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:36.200 New York because I really haven't been to a much. 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:39.960 So if you were around when the show was still 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:42.640 on the air, when Gossip Girl was still going, then 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:45.640 I suppose it's possible, yes, but if neither of us 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:48.320 remember it, it probably wasn't. I think we can go 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:50.160 ahead and say, nice to meet you. Yeah, nice to 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:54.000 meet you. That sounds makes sense. Nice to meet you. Yes, 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:58.320 you know, Gossip Girls started shortly before the Office, and 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:04.279 you guys were so big and so hip, which was 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:08.760 the opposite of us at that time. I uh, when 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:12.039 you started, I mean you, well when for sure, when 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:16.520 we started, but also but even throughout you know, the 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:23.560 we weren't. We weren't like paparazzi stalked and like, we 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:27.520 weren't living that sort of well gossip girl type life. 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:32.000 I guess you're just creating the most watched television show 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:35.000 I think in history. Is that? Now? What the office is? 0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:38.440 The U S Office. It's it for sure. Now I 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:41.200 don't know, maybe maybe I love Lucy or something. It's 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:47.240 still okay, it's still bigger. But um yeah. So so 0:05:47.279 --> 0:05:51.160 I had some crazy like New York experiences like oh, 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:53.840 this is the back door of a place, like I 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:58.760 wasn't used to that. Yes, I still don't know how 0:05:58.760 --> 0:06:00.880 to get in the front door. I've actually talked my 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:04.280 way into the front door of a club once, exactly 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:07.479 once in my life, in the first season of Gossip Girl, 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:10.960 the first and last time I ever did it. I 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:14.440 still don't know how to wield that hammer, and and 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:17.040 it's it's comical. But you know, if a back door 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:19.599 is open to me and I'm being ushered through it, 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:23.159 sure thing. Yeah, it's easy. Yeah, all right, Well I 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:26.680 want to start back before that. You're a You're a 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:29.960 difficult guy to pin down in terms of the question 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:32.400 where are you from. It sounds like you were born 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:36.240 in Maryland and then going to move to Virginia at 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:39.960 two years old. Packed up my bags. Yeah, then I 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:42.400 was also in Washington State. By the time I was 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:44.040 I think eight or nine. And then I was in 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:46.440 l A, l A, pursuing a career as an actor 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:49.160 at the right old age of twelve, and about time 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:51.760 I was twenty, I was in New York City. Okay, 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:55.080 so you you went, you went the opposite way. You're 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:57.560 one of the very very few who moved from l 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:00.960 A to New York. That doesn't usually happened. No, I 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:04.120 mean I was really lucky in a number of ways 0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:06.080 when Gossip Girl came along, even though even though it 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:09.800 was something that I have spoken a lot about, how like, 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:11.679 you know, sort of in the beginning, I wasn't sure 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:13.800 it seems to be the way I signed on to 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:16.560 things because it was the same with my show You Now. 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:19.880 But I yeah, I mean one of the great gifts 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:23.000 that brought was living in New York City. Truly, I 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:27.000 cannot well, any other life is a fantasy, but I 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:29.360 can't imagine not having been in New York in my twenties. 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:32.559 And it's very intense, by the way, like the city 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:35.480 is exhausting, so that fifteen sixteen years later, I'm like, 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:40.800 you know, having to process what that was. But but man, yeah, 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:43.320 it's an incredible place to be. Where would you say, 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:47.640 what place influenced you the most before you're your move 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:49.960 to New York. It sounds like you were in in 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:53.360 in Washington State for quite a while. Yeah, every everywhere 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:55.800 was a different kind of influence, each one of them 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:57.760 pretty deep. I think the one that resonates the most 0:07:57.800 --> 0:07:59.800 is Washington State because at that age I was just 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:02.480 nine to twelves and those are such formative years. And 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:04.640 then by the time I was in l A. You know, 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:07.119 those are formative years as well. But then, of course, 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:11.120 like any like any teenager, I became to disdain the 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:16.280 place that I lived. And I think, um, being a 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:19.440 an actor, you of course, you know, the relationship you 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:21.800 developed with l A is different then if you do 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:24.400 something else right, you know, And so I think by 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:27.520 the time I was twenty, I really wanted to get out. 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:31.560 I always wanted to live in in New York, and 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:33.880 so then the opportunity came, and so yeah, I'd say 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:36.679 Washington State, that place is the place that feels like 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:41.000 my home before it all kind of started. Before it started. Um, 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:44.480 were you named after a tennis ball brand? I was. Indeed, 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:47.560 Now that doesn't really mean anything because there was no 0:08:47.600 --> 0:08:50.280 attachment to the brand. My parents were not that's not 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:53.360 even that's it's tennis players. Well, my dad was a 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:55.720 tennis player, but not you know, I mean, it's like 0:08:56.840 --> 0:08:58.960 it was more of a happenstance where he was he 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:02.160 was bouncing gripping a pen tennis ball just sort of 0:09:02.200 --> 0:09:04.240 like because it was there and it was a stress thing. 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:07.680 And my mom said, uh, oh, he's about the size 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:09.360 of that tennis ball. Right now, I think they've just 0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:12.560 gotten the first sonogram. I don't know if a story is. 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:14.480 I don't know if they were actually in the hospital 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:17.400 at a time or if what what it was. But 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:18.920 but then and then he just looked at the ball 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:22.280 and then in that moment they knew pen. That's that's 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:27.160 the Yeah, fascinating. Do you think that that that bouncinus 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:33.240 influenced anything later on? Back and forth? Uh, that's interesting. 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:35.280 I've never thought of that. And my relationship with tennis 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:38.319 is I really like to watch it, but I've never 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:40.839 been a tennis person. I don't it doesn't. Here's where 0:09:40.840 --> 0:09:43.320 the name means something to me is that I kind 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:47.120 of I went through this phase where I got into them. 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:50.320 The etymology of the word pen like a like a 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:52.640 like a writing pen, even though that's technically not I mean, 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:53.880 it has an extra end, so I don't know if 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:55.480 that just makes it a name or whatever. But like 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:59.839 the idea that a pen point is like, it's like this, 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:02.560 like I don't know the point where things come to 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:04.240 a head. It's it kind of used to mean like 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:06.920 a general. I think in Germanic. It's sort of like 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:10.840 the root of the word used for a general. Yeah, 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:13.040 it's kind of I don't know, interesting esoteric stuff. But 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:15.960 now the name, the name, doesn't I like it because 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:19.280 it's unique. Yes, I rarely ever see the name or 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:21.679 hear the name in any of the reference than to me, 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:24.120 you know what I mean. So that's kind of interesting, 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:27.640 Like you know, people who have a name, like it's 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:30.040 more common, they're accustomed to meeting people with their name. 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:33.199 I I have only met one other person named pen 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:38.840 And incidentally, my mother's neighbor for a very brief period. 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:42.520 My mother lived in Colorado, and she actually when she 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:46.160 first moved in to this suburban street in Colorado. This 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:49.280 is like I don't want to say, six seven, eight 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:54.640 years ago, she uh had somebody left cookies on her 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:57.400 front door and it said, you know, nice to meet 0:10:57.440 --> 0:11:02.480 your neighbor signed pen and my mom. The way she 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:05.760 describes it, she literally was like what and like she 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:08.360 didn't see who it was. She was just so she 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:10.520 was having like a brain glitch, like a matrix moment, 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:13.000 you know, like what do you mean That's not possible. 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:17.080 And it turns out the woman who lived next door, 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:19.600 she was like in her forties. I think she had 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:22.760 like two kids. She was from. Her heritage is a 0:11:22.840 --> 0:11:26.839 West Indies, so she's black, and so it's it's it's 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:29.560 an interesting funny story that the only other woman me 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:32.760 or my family has ever met was an older black 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:35.240 woman who lived next right to my mom. You know 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:38.920 that's kind of I like that the name has that spectrum. Yeah, 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:45.000 it does, you know, it does. It transverses the world. Now, 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:49.800 I have to tell you, in the weirdest coincidence ever, 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:56.160 I have only met one other pen And Gilette to 0:11:56.280 --> 0:12:02.320 him on this podcast, very very recently, and I will 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:05.080 tell you, well, you have you have a lot to 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:08.600 live up to. He was, he's fascinating. Yeah, he's pretty 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:13.840 incredibly smart and intuitive, and he immediately invited me, well 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:17.079 not immediately, but at the end of our conversation invited 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:21.200 me to a show of his in Vegas and I 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:25.000 have never been. And after the conversation, I was like, anytime, 0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:28.000 and I will just fly there to come and hang 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:31.280 out with you. And that actually makes me feel like 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:34.640 I've never felt this way about like another quote unquote celebrity. 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:36.440 That's sort of I don't operate like that. But that 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:39.400 just made me realize like he is the only other 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:43.079 famous pen I'm aware of. He uh, and he's a 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:46.400 profound dude. He's like he's their act Penn and Teller 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:48.760 is is I think brilliant. I mean I've never really 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:51.400 dug into it, but I I've never seen it live. 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:54.800 But you're making me feel like somehow I really want 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:56.400 to reach out to him, and just because he is 0:12:56.440 --> 0:13:03.320 so smart, you need to and it'll Pen and Pen. Yeah, 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:05.600 Pen and Pen, that's an episode we gotta get him 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:09.439 for our podcast. Yeah, Pen and Pen, you just give 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:11.600 me credit just in the in the bottom corner. Definitely, 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:17.960 You're not gonna get any points or anything but points. Points. Points. Yeah, 0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:21.880 It's just I've never had points in anything yet. Points 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:26.040 are what you get when something is not worth anything, right, right, 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:29.840 right right. However, However, if you get in I mean, 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:31.559 you know, on a show like yours or if it's well, 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:33.240 I know, I'm not saying that you guys did it. 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:35.439 I'm just saying like, there is that rare like Keianna 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:39.000 Reeves famously got him, he didn't he like rather than 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:41.160 getting paid a lot for the matrix, he got some points. 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:44.720 Well those are good points to have, Yeah, exactly if 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:47.000 you can stumble onto something that is going to turn 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:54.120 the giant. Yes, Um, when did you start becoming interested 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:56.720 in acting? Now? I understand you did some stuff for 0:13:56.840 --> 0:13:59.920 Seattle Children's Theater, so this is young. But was this 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:02.600 a hobby or was this something you were really interested 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:06.480 in pursuing? I mean both it it went from a hobby. 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:10.760 My first creative passion is music that was kind of 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:14.439 from birth pretty evidently, which with my toddler actually seems 0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:17.560 to be the same case. Really really his love music 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:20.000 from the get go and has a very specific kind 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:24.080 of taste. So yeah, singing performing in that way was 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:28.000 like something that I think my heart desired. But the 0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:31.320 way it became acting I can't really recall, except that 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:34.800 there were some school players pretty young and then and 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:37.280 but then really what did it was that I was 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:40.400 clearly a very creative person. Actually, the thing I spent 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:43.320 the most time doing was drawing. I would draw and 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:45.480 listen to music and I didn't sing that much that 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:47.960 at that point. But but then when we moved to 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:50.440 Washington State, we lived in the middle of nowhere, and 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:52.680 I needed a social outlet because it was just the 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:55.200 beginning of summer. I had no school, nothing like that, 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:58.680 and my mom and I would drive to this, uh, 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:01.200 this theater house. It was like few miles away in 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:04.960 a town called Monroe. And that was when I fell 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:08.360 in love with the practice. A crew of cast, you know, 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:12.040 like there's sometimes nothing better. It's like this communal experience. 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:13.560 You get to meet so many different kinds of people, 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:16.680 especially when you're that age. You know most kids are. 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:19.960 Most kids are surrounded by kids only their age, which 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:21.800 is a construct of school you think about, it's not 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:24.760 totally natural what I love. I loved being around just 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:29.000 adults and all different kinds of people, creative people. I 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:32.720 just I really loved it. And then I saw Seattle 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:35.480 as this like um because I didn't live in Seattle, 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:37.320 and when I would go into Seattle later when I 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:39.440 was doing plays in the city, I just felt some 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:42.120 Metropolitan would go to the museum and stuff. I just 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:44.720 it just felt like like the arts with this access 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:47.280 to the world, you know, And and so I didn't 0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:52.960 just love acting. I loved the entire thing. You know, 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:55.680 it just was like magical. It just it was it 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:58.280 was lovely and so I really pretty and I don't know, 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:00.280 I mean it just that couldn't have matter been doing 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:05.960 anything else. You bring up something I've never thought about before. 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:08.800 But it's so true. I mean, if you think about 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:12.240 school and you think about sports, even at a young 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:15.000 age to right, I mean, you're you're it's like you're 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:17.640 playing with nine and ten year olds or eleven, you know, 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:23.520 in on teams. But theater specifically is one place where 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:29.040 you have the opportunity to be around and in a 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:32.680 way be on the same team with a variety of 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:40.119 ages and types and sexes and everything. That is that 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:43.320 that's so valuable, I would is no. I mean, I 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:45.480 actually think it's a more natural way for people to 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:48.320 grow up because you think about schools, schools haven't existed 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:51.720 that long, Like we're normally the world is mixed age, 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:53.800 Like you know, you're going to be in the world. 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:57.320 So in the way I grew up like in the world, 0:16:58.000 --> 0:16:59.960 and I think, you look, I mean, it has it's 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:03.360 it has its taxes and as its cost. But but 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:05.880 there's something about that that I always loved. I really 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:08.359 always loved and I and I and I stopped going 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:11.040 to school in a traditional sense pretty early on, so 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:15.800 you know, yeah, I've I've come to appreciate it. Did 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:19.720 you graduate high school at age thirteen? Technically, what I 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:23.240 did was took the California High School State Proficiency Exams, 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:25.560 So that's now referred to as the CHEST because it's 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:30.040 a bit more popular for kids who were seeking to Basically, 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:32.720 what it does is it allows you to work without 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:35.840 a tutor on set and without the constraints of like 0:17:35.880 --> 0:17:37.320 the eight and a half hours or whatever that is. 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:39.840 So like I could work for twelve hours and I 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:41.880 wouldn't have to have a tutor. And you know, if 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:45.200 you're an autodidact, if you like learning, that's not a 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:47.159 bad thing at all, because the set tutor is a 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:50.440 little bit of a I didn't five with it, and 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:55.159 and I'm again like, I'm not recommending it for all people, 0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:57.199 but the way that it worked for me was that 0:17:57.240 --> 0:18:00.879 it is that it worked fascinating. So like basically the 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:03.359 equivalent of a G E D or something the exact 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:05.040 same thing. It's just a G E D I think 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:07.879 is a national thing with this is just in the 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:09.520 state of California. So what I did was I started 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:11.320 going to Santa Monica College. I don't know if you've 0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:12.720 ever been there, but it's a really cool kind of 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:15.600 like cultural hub too. Yes, there was another example of 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:19.000 how this profession sort of kept opening up the world 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:21.159 to me. You know, I was taking sociology at a 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:25.399 college level when I was like fourteen, and I loved that. 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:28.040 I loved that. I took photography, you know, and I 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:30.439 was taking drawing and I was drawing models, you know, 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:33.320 and stuff. It was just loved it. I really really 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:36.359 loved it. Well, again, this makes a ton of sense. 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:39.159 I mean, if you're someone who is interested in the 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:42.719 world and wanting to be educated, but not wanting to 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:46.080 be because you're because you're working, because you're pursuing something 0:18:46.119 --> 0:18:51.320 you love, not wanting to be held with those constraints 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:54.679 that are sort of artificial, but being able to actually 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:58.680 begin focusing and expanding your knowledge with things that you're 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:02.000 interested in, that make a ton of sense. I've actually 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:05.320 never heard of that. Never maybe I haven't been around 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:09.720 smart kids. I didn't. I never occurred to me that, 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:12.080 oh well if you if you place out, you you 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:14.119 don't have to be under those same rules or do 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:17.159 the set school or whatever. Yeah, well, I mean and 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:19.399 to be to be again to kind of underscore like 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:22.080 I didn't, I didn't test out of high school in 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:24.320 in that way that you would think of. What really 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:28.240 started happening was that, like this other way of of 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:31.240 being able to make things work and have a sort 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:35.680 of a career and occupation started to present itself very early, 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:39.199 so that it seemed like a safe enough gamble to 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:41.240 be like, you know what, what do people go to 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:44.200 school for? What do you do it for? They do 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:47.200 it to set them up, right, I mean, you don't 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:49.679 like unfortunately people don't really go there to learn. You 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:51.600 do it because you basically have to. If you don't 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:53.440 go to school, your child services will be called in 0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:56.239 your parents at something. Right, So you know it's like, 0:19:56.440 --> 0:19:58.600 but that's again, this is kind of a construct like 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:01.919 and so and again. And you know, I don't believe 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:05.440 in children should not all go to Hollywood. It's the 0:20:05.560 --> 0:20:08.520 last place really they should be, you know. So it's 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:12.360 like it does not work for everybody, but I managed 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:15.359 to cut a path that that again, it came with 0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:19.920 some costs, but ultimately, like was this really rich sort 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:23.400 of exposure to culture and a different kind of education 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:28.159 that you know, I never lost the love for learning, actually, 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:32.560 And that's interesting because a lot of people get to 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:36.080 college and they're just exhausted by the academic experience. I personally, 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:38.840 you know, I read more than most people I know, 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:40.640 and I think one of these one of the reasons 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:44.399 is is this right, I just love to absorb. You know, 0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:49.800 you went to Los Angeles then, specifically at that point 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:56.040 fourteen to pursue a career. Yeah, yeah, the cliff notes 0:20:56.080 --> 0:21:02.600 are yes. The longer answer is, no one at thirteen, 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:05.040 No one as a child is going with a parent 0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:09.720 to l a to pursue a career without some aspect 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:12.240 of the family being like people needing to get away 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:15.160 from each other, parents getting divorced, that sort of thing. 0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:18.520 So it's you know, it's always I mean, if you 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:22.560 look at Hollywood as it like a control experiment or something, 0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:25.520 you know, you know that child actors are coming from 0:21:25.880 --> 0:21:29.640 often a lot of a lot of stuff and and 0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:33.919 so and so that was a part of it. But 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:38.919 I did have the genuine desire to act, to pursue 0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:42.119 a life as a creative person, as an artist. And 0:21:42.119 --> 0:21:43.960 I'm not even saying that that's what I achieved, but 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:46.000 that is what brought me there. And you know, and 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:49.240 then I started working right off the bat, uh in 0:21:49.240 --> 0:21:52.720 in television and I virtually have not stopped since. Yeah, 0:21:53.520 --> 0:21:57.600 you had a number of recurring roles early on Young 0:21:57.640 --> 0:22:00.199 and the Restless, which, by the way, in terms of 0:22:00.200 --> 0:22:05.960 an education doing a soap opera, learning quickly how to 0:22:06.040 --> 0:22:09.879 be on set and how to be efficient and work, 0:22:10.240 --> 0:22:15.119 that's a great education, right, Yeah, I mean, you know, 0:22:15.320 --> 0:22:17.600 I did it briefly enough that I think, Yeah, it 0:22:17.720 --> 0:22:19.760 was just it kept me working. It kept me like 0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:23.000 if like I didn't study a lot, and as an actor, 0:22:23.040 --> 0:22:25.639 I was just sort of living by doing or sorry, 0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:29.560 learning by doing. And um, it was just it all 0:22:29.800 --> 0:22:33.080 was training, it all, you know, all those sort of 0:22:33.080 --> 0:22:37.280 recurring roles. I remember being very very nervous every time 0:22:37.320 --> 0:22:40.680 I went to Younger than Restless because it was right 0:22:40.680 --> 0:22:45.520