Speaker 1: Did you view yourself as the outsider on the ship?
Speaker 1: In life? On the show? On the show, did I
Speaker 1: view Dan as the outsider? As Dan as the outsider?
Speaker 1: I mean, that's who he's identified as. But to me,
Speaker 1: the joke is always like, Bro, how much more on
Speaker 1: the inside could you be? You're just not in the
Speaker 1: deepest of the inner circle, but you're in the same school.
Speaker 1: You're you're a you're a white boy, you know, you're
Speaker 1: you know your dad was a rock star, and you
Speaker 1: live in a three million dollar apartment rather than a
Speaker 1: thirty million dollar mansions. So like, if you think you're
Speaker 1: on the outside, Dan Humphrey, I'm sorry, but you have
Speaker 1: a lot of learning to do. Hi. My name is
Speaker 1: Penn Badgeley and I am you. Hi everybody. As always,
Speaker 1: I'm your host, Brian bamb Gartner, and today we are
Speaker 1: truly going off the beat. Thanks for joining me. Today's guest.
Speaker 1: He's charming, he's thoughtful, he's incredible, likable, and he plays
Speaker 1: a serial killer on TV. I'm talking, of course, about
Speaker 1: the uber talented Penn Badgeley, a man who is as
Speaker 1: much at home on his podcast talking about the awkward
Speaker 1: middle school years as he is luring people to their
Speaker 1: deaths on the hit show you talk about range. Pen
Speaker 1: and I we have a lot in common. We're both actors,
Speaker 1: we both love many of the same people, some of
Speaker 1: whom co starred with him on Gossip Girl of course,
Speaker 1: where he played Dan Humphrey. And we're both always watching. No,
Speaker 1: not really, but seriously. I loved hearing about Penn's unique
Speaker 1: journey growing up on television and now he's reflecting on
Speaker 1: it over twenty years later with his podcast pod Crushed,
Speaker 1: which coincidentally I'm a guest on this month as well.
Speaker 1: Give that a listen if you want to hear about
Speaker 1: my awkward junior high years. Can't wait for you to
Speaker 1: hear this one. I won't make you wait any longer.
Speaker 1: Here he is my new friend, Penn Badgeley, Bubble and Squeak.
Speaker 1: I love it. Bubble and Squeak on Bubble and Squeaker
Speaker 1: Cookie every month left over from the night before. Pen.
Speaker 1: It's great to see you. Where are you? You're I'm
Speaker 1: in New York City. You're in New York You're in
Speaker 1: You're in a very official I podcast studio. It's branded
Speaker 1: and everything it is well so this is it's it's
Speaker 1: funny because the first year of producing and recording our podcast,
Speaker 1: I was in a different super jan Kie environment every
Speaker 1: for every interview. And actually, if you look at some
Speaker 1: of the stuff we've put together on social media, when
Speaker 1: we weren't even trying to be visual, but we just
Speaker 1: had some zoom footage, I'm in a different place every time.
Speaker 1: The lighting is terrible, Like I have facial here and
Speaker 1: that's very unkempt, whereas now it's there, but it's kempt
Speaker 1: and it's m Yeah. And so now I'm like getting
Speaker 1: used to. I get on the train and I come
Speaker 1: and it's like taking care of and we have our
Speaker 1: engineer here, and we have our producer. It's like, it's yeah,
Speaker 1: it's if this is podcasting, signed me up? This is it? Now.
Speaker 1: I have to ask you, this is like such a lame, lame,
Speaker 1: lame Hollywood question. Do we know each other? Did we
Speaker 1: know from back in the day? But I don't think so,
Speaker 1: you don't. But here's why it's easy to be somewhat certain.
Speaker 1: I've lived in New York for the last fifteen years,
Speaker 1: and I really don't run into people the same way.
Speaker 1: We'll see. Here's the thing. I randomly became, which, of
Speaker 1: course we'll talk about Gossip Girl in a little bit.
Speaker 1: I randomly became friends slash friendly with virtually your entire
Speaker 1: cast in New York City, really so like Ed and
Speaker 1: Sebastian stand Chase and all sort of through Jeff z
Speaker 1: or Ah. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's then you
Speaker 1: know what it were you it would have been in
Speaker 1: New York because I really haven't been to a much.
Speaker 1: So if you were around when the show was still
Speaker 1: on the air, when Gossip Girl was still going, then
Speaker 1: I suppose it's possible, yes, but if neither of us
Speaker 1: remember it, it probably wasn't. I think we can go
Speaker 1: ahead and say, nice to meet you. Yeah, nice to
Speaker 1: meet you. That sounds makes sense. Nice to meet you. Yes,
Speaker 1: you know, Gossip Girls started shortly before the Office, and
Speaker 1: you guys were so big and so hip, which was
Speaker 1: the opposite of us at that time. I uh, when
Speaker 1: you started, I mean you, well when for sure, when
Speaker 1: we started, but also but even throughout you know, the
Speaker 1: we weren't. We weren't like paparazzi stalked and like, we
Speaker 1: weren't living that sort of well gossip girl type life.
Speaker 1: I guess you're just creating the most watched television show
Speaker 1: I think in history. Is that? Now? What the office is?
Speaker 1: The U S Office. It's it for sure. Now I
Speaker 1: don't know, maybe maybe I love Lucy or something. It's
Speaker 1: still okay, it's still bigger. But um yeah. So so
Speaker 1: I had some crazy like New York experiences like oh,
Speaker 1: this is the back door of a place, like I
Speaker 1: wasn't used to that. Yes, I still don't know how
Speaker 1: to get in the front door. I've actually talked my
Speaker 1: way into the front door of a club once, exactly
Speaker 1: once in my life, in the first season of Gossip Girl,
Speaker 1: the first and last time I ever did it. I
Speaker 1: still don't know how to wield that hammer, and and
Speaker 1: it's it's comical. But you know, if a back door
Speaker 1: is open to me and I'm being ushered through it,
Speaker 1: sure thing. Yeah, it's easy. Yeah, all right, Well I
Speaker 1: want to start back before that. You're a You're a
Speaker 1: difficult guy to pin down in terms of the question
Speaker 1: where are you from. It sounds like you were born
Speaker 1: in Maryland and then going to move to Virginia at
Speaker 1: two years old. Packed up my bags. Yeah, then I
Speaker 1: was also in Washington State. By the time I was
Speaker 1: I think eight or nine. And then I was in
Speaker 1: l A, l A, pursuing a career as an actor
Speaker 1: at the right old age of twelve, and about time
Speaker 1: I was twenty, I was in New York City. Okay,
Speaker 1: so you you went, you went the opposite way. You're
Speaker 1: one of the very very few who moved from l
Speaker 1: A to New York. That doesn't usually happened. No, I
Speaker 1: mean I was really lucky in a number of ways
Speaker 1: when Gossip Girl came along, even though even though it
Speaker 1: was something that I have spoken a lot about, how like,
Speaker 1: you know, sort of in the beginning, I wasn't sure
Speaker 1: it seems to be the way I signed on to
Speaker 1: things because it was the same with my show You Now.
Speaker 1: But I yeah, I mean one of the great gifts
Speaker 1: that brought was living in New York City. Truly, I
Speaker 1: cannot well, any other life is a fantasy, but I
Speaker 1: can't imagine not having been in New York in my twenties.
Speaker 1: And it's very intense, by the way, like the city
Speaker 1: is exhausting, so that fifteen sixteen years later, I'm like,
Speaker 1: you know, having to process what that was. But but man, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's an incredible place to be. Where would you say,
Speaker 1: what place influenced you the most before you're your move
Speaker 1: to New York. It sounds like you were in in
Speaker 1: in Washington State for quite a while. Yeah, every everywhere
Speaker 1: was a different kind of influence, each one of them
Speaker 1: pretty deep. I think the one that resonates the most
Speaker 1: is Washington State because at that age I was just
Speaker 1: nine to twelves and those are such formative years. And
Speaker 1: then by the time I was in l A. You know,
Speaker 1: those are formative years as well. But then, of course,
Speaker 1: like any like any teenager, I became to disdain the
Speaker 1: place that I lived. And I think, um, being a
Speaker 1: an actor, you of course, you know, the relationship you
Speaker 1: developed with l A is different then if you do
Speaker 1: something else right, you know, And so I think by
Speaker 1: the time I was twenty, I really wanted to get out.
Speaker 1: I always wanted to live in in New York, and
Speaker 1: so then the opportunity came, and so yeah, I'd say
Speaker 1: Washington State, that place is the place that feels like
Speaker 1: my home before it all kind of started. Before it started. Um,
Speaker 1: were you named after a tennis ball brand? I was. Indeed,
Speaker 1: Now that doesn't really mean anything because there was no
Speaker 1: attachment to the brand. My parents were not that's not
Speaker 1: even that's it's tennis players. Well, my dad was a
Speaker 1: tennis player, but not you know, I mean, it's like
Speaker 1: it was more of a happenstance where he was he
Speaker 1: was bouncing gripping a pen tennis ball just sort of
Speaker 1: like because it was there and it was a stress thing.
Speaker 1: And my mom said, uh, oh, he's about the size
Speaker 1: of that tennis ball. Right now, I think they've just
Speaker 1: gotten the first sonogram. I don't know if a story is.
Speaker 1: I don't know if they were actually in the hospital
Speaker 1: at a time or if what what it was. But
Speaker 1: but then and then he just looked at the ball
Speaker 1: and then in that moment they knew pen. That's that's
Speaker 1: the Yeah, fascinating. Do you think that that that bouncinus
Speaker 1: influenced anything later on? Back and forth? Uh, that's interesting.
Speaker 1: I've never thought of that. And my relationship with tennis
Speaker 1: is I really like to watch it, but I've never
Speaker 1: been a tennis person. I don't it doesn't. Here's where
Speaker 1: the name means something to me is that I kind
Speaker 1: of I went through this phase where I got into them.
Speaker 1: The etymology of the word pen like a like a
Speaker 1: like a writing pen, even though that's technically not I mean,
Speaker 1: it has an extra end, so I don't know if
Speaker 1: that just makes it a name or whatever. But like
Speaker 1: the idea that a pen point is like, it's like this,
Speaker 1: like I don't know the point where things come to
Speaker 1: a head. It's it kind of used to mean like
Speaker 1: a general. I think in Germanic. It's sort of like
Speaker 1: the root of the word used for a general. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's kind of I don't know, interesting esoteric stuff. But
Speaker 1: now the name, the name, doesn't I like it because
Speaker 1: it's unique. Yes, I rarely ever see the name or
Speaker 1: hear the name in any of the reference than to me,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So that's kind of interesting,
Speaker 1: Like you know, people who have a name, like it's
Speaker 1: more common, they're accustomed to meeting people with their name.
Speaker 1: I I have only met one other person named pen
Speaker 1: And incidentally, my mother's neighbor for a very brief period.
Speaker 1: My mother lived in Colorado, and she actually when she
Speaker 1: first moved in to this suburban street in Colorado. This
Speaker 1: is like I don't want to say, six seven, eight
Speaker 1: years ago, she uh had somebody left cookies on her
Speaker 1: front door and it said, you know, nice to meet
Speaker 1: your neighbor signed pen and my mom. The way she
Speaker 1: describes it, she literally was like what and like she
Speaker 1: didn't see who it was. She was just so she
Speaker 1: was having like a brain glitch, like a matrix moment,
Speaker 1: you know, like what do you mean That's not possible.
Speaker 1: And it turns out the woman who lived next door,
Speaker 1: she was like in her forties. I think she had
Speaker 1: like two kids. She was from. Her heritage is a
Speaker 1: West Indies, so she's black, and so it's it's it's
Speaker 1: an interesting funny story that the only other woman me
Speaker 1: or my family has ever met was an older black
Speaker 1: woman who lived next right to my mom. You know
Speaker 1: that's kind of I like that the name has that spectrum. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it does, you know, it does. It transverses the world. Now,
Speaker 1: I have to tell you, in the weirdest coincidence ever,
Speaker 1: I have only met one other pen And Gilette to
Speaker 1: him on this podcast, very very recently, and I will
Speaker 1: tell you, well, you have you have a lot to
Speaker 1: live up to. He was, he's fascinating. Yeah, he's pretty
Speaker 1: incredibly smart and intuitive, and he immediately invited me, well
Speaker 1: not immediately, but at the end of our conversation invited
Speaker 1: me to a show of his in Vegas and I
Speaker 1: have never been. And after the conversation, I was like, anytime,
Speaker 1: and I will just fly there to come and hang
Speaker 1: out with you. And that actually makes me feel like
Speaker 1: I've never felt this way about like another quote unquote celebrity.
Speaker 1: That's sort of I don't operate like that. But that
Speaker 1: just made me realize like he is the only other
Speaker 1: famous pen I'm aware of. He uh, and he's a
Speaker 1: profound dude. He's like he's their act Penn and Teller
Speaker 1: is is I think brilliant. I mean I've never really
Speaker 1: dug into it, but I I've never seen it live.
Speaker 1: But you're making me feel like somehow I really want
Speaker 1: to reach out to him, and just because he is
Speaker 1: so smart, you need to and it'll Pen and Pen. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Pen and Pen, that's an episode we gotta get him
Speaker 1: for our podcast. Yeah, Pen and Pen, you just give
Speaker 1: me credit just in the in the bottom corner. Definitely,
Speaker 1: You're not gonna get any points or anything but points. Points. Points. Yeah,
Speaker 1: It's just I've never had points in anything yet. Points
Speaker 1: are what you get when something is not worth anything, right, right,
Speaker 1: right right. However, However, if you get in I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, on a show like yours or if it's well,
Speaker 1: I know, I'm not saying that you guys did it.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying like, there is that rare like Keianna
Speaker 1: Reeves famously got him, he didn't he like rather than
Speaker 1: getting paid a lot for the matrix, he got some points.
Speaker 1: Well those are good points to have, Yeah, exactly if
Speaker 1: you can stumble onto something that is going to turn
Speaker 1: the giant. Yes, Um, when did you start becoming interested
Speaker 1: in acting? Now? I understand you did some stuff for
Speaker 1: Seattle Children's Theater, so this is young. But was this
Speaker 1: a hobby or was this something you were really interested
Speaker 1: in pursuing? I mean both it it went from a hobby.
Speaker 1: My first creative passion is music that was kind of
Speaker 1: from birth pretty evidently, which with my toddler actually seems
Speaker 1: to be the same case. Really really his love music
Speaker 1: from the get go and has a very specific kind
Speaker 1: of taste. So yeah, singing performing in that way was
Speaker 1: like something that I think my heart desired. But the
Speaker 1: way it became acting I can't really recall, except that
Speaker 1: there were some school players pretty young and then and
Speaker 1: but then really what did it was that I was
Speaker 1: clearly a very creative person. Actually, the thing I spent
Speaker 1: the most time doing was drawing. I would draw and
Speaker 1: listen to music and I didn't sing that much that
Speaker 1: at that point. But but then when we moved to
Speaker 1: Washington State, we lived in the middle of nowhere, and
Speaker 1: I needed a social outlet because it was just the
Speaker 1: beginning of summer. I had no school, nothing like that,
Speaker 1: and my mom and I would drive to this, uh,
Speaker 1: this theater house. It was like few miles away in
Speaker 1: a town called Monroe. And that was when I fell
Speaker 1: in love with the practice. A crew of cast, you know,
Speaker 1: like there's sometimes nothing better. It's like this communal experience.
Speaker 1: You get to meet so many different kinds of people,
Speaker 1: especially when you're that age. You know most kids are.
Speaker 1: Most kids are surrounded by kids only their age, which
Speaker 1: is a construct of school you think about, it's not
Speaker 1: totally natural what I love. I loved being around just
Speaker 1: adults and all different kinds of people, creative people. I
Speaker 1: just I really loved it. And then I saw Seattle
Speaker 1: as this like um because I didn't live in Seattle,
Speaker 1: and when I would go into Seattle later when I
Speaker 1: was doing plays in the city, I just felt some
Speaker 1: Metropolitan would go to the museum and stuff. I just
Speaker 1: it just felt like like the arts with this access
Speaker 1: to the world, you know, And and so I didn't
Speaker 1: just love acting. I loved the entire thing. You know,
Speaker 1: it just was like magical. It just it was it
Speaker 1: was lovely and so I really pretty and I don't know,
Speaker 1: I mean it just that couldn't have matter been doing
Speaker 1: anything else. You bring up something I've never thought about before.
Speaker 1: But it's so true. I mean, if you think about
Speaker 1: school and you think about sports, even at a young
Speaker 1: age to right, I mean, you're you're it's like you're
Speaker 1: playing with nine and ten year olds or eleven, you know,
Speaker 1: in on teams. But theater specifically is one place where
Speaker 1: you have the opportunity to be around and in a
Speaker 1: way be on the same team with a variety of
Speaker 1: ages and types and sexes and everything. That is that
Speaker 1: that's so valuable, I would is no. I mean, I
Speaker 1: actually think it's a more natural way for people to
Speaker 1: grow up because you think about schools, schools haven't existed
Speaker 1: that long, Like we're normally the world is mixed age,
Speaker 1: Like you know, you're going to be in the world.
Speaker 1: So in the way I grew up like in the world,
Speaker 1: and I think, you look, I mean, it has it's
Speaker 1: it has its taxes and as its cost. But but
Speaker 1: there's something about that that I always loved. I really
Speaker 1: always loved and I and I and I stopped going
Speaker 1: to school in a traditional sense pretty early on, so
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, I've I've come to appreciate it. Did
Speaker 1: you graduate high school at age thirteen? Technically, what I
Speaker 1: did was took the California High School State Proficiency Exams,
Speaker 1: So that's now referred to as the CHEST because it's
Speaker 1: a bit more popular for kids who were seeking to Basically,
Speaker 1: what it does is it allows you to work without
Speaker 1: a tutor on set and without the constraints of like
Speaker 1: the eight and a half hours or whatever that is.
Speaker 1: So like I could work for twelve hours and I
Speaker 1: wouldn't have to have a tutor. And you know, if
Speaker 1: you're an autodidact, if you like learning, that's not a
Speaker 1: bad thing at all, because the set tutor is a
Speaker 1: little bit of a I didn't five with it, and
Speaker 1: and I'm again like, I'm not recommending it for all people,
Speaker 1: but the way that it worked for me was that
Speaker 1: it is that it worked fascinating. So like basically the
Speaker 1: equivalent of a G E D or something the exact
Speaker 1: same thing. It's just a G E D I think
Speaker 1: is a national thing with this is just in the
Speaker 1: state of California. So what I did was I started
Speaker 1: going to Santa Monica College. I don't know if you've
Speaker 1: ever been there, but it's a really cool kind of
Speaker 1: like cultural hub too. Yes, there was another example of
Speaker 1: how this profession sort of kept opening up the world
Speaker 1: to me. You know, I was taking sociology at a
Speaker 1: college level when I was like fourteen, and I loved that.
Speaker 1: I loved that. I took photography, you know, and I
Speaker 1: was taking drawing and I was drawing models, you know,
Speaker 1: and stuff. It was just loved it. I really really
Speaker 1: loved it. Well, again, this makes a ton of sense.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you're someone who is interested in the
Speaker 1: world and wanting to be educated, but not wanting to
Speaker 1: be because you're because you're working, because you're pursuing something
Speaker 1: you love, not wanting to be held with those constraints
Speaker 1: that are sort of artificial, but being able to actually
Speaker 1: begin focusing and expanding your knowledge with things that you're
Speaker 1: interested in, that make a ton of sense. I've actually
Speaker 1: never heard of that. Never maybe I haven't been around
Speaker 1: smart kids. I didn't. I never occurred to me that,
Speaker 1: oh well if you if you place out, you you
Speaker 1: don't have to be under those same rules or do
Speaker 1: the set school or whatever. Yeah, well, I mean and
Speaker 1: to be to be again to kind of underscore like
Speaker 1: I didn't, I didn't test out of high school in
Speaker 1: in that way that you would think of. What really
Speaker 1: started happening was that, like this other way of of
Speaker 1: being able to make things work and have a sort
Speaker 1: of a career and occupation started to present itself very early,
Speaker 1: so that it seemed like a safe enough gamble to
Speaker 1: be like, you know what, what do people go to
Speaker 1: school for? What do you do it for? They do
Speaker 1: it to set them up, right, I mean, you don't
Speaker 1: like unfortunately people don't really go there to learn. You
Speaker 1: do it because you basically have to. If you don't
Speaker 1: go to school, your child services will be called in
Speaker 1: your parents at something. Right, So you know it's like,
Speaker 1: but that's again, this is kind of a construct like
Speaker 1: and so and again. And you know, I don't believe
Speaker 1: in children should not all go to Hollywood. It's the
Speaker 1: last place really they should be, you know. So it's
Speaker 1: like it does not work for everybody, but I managed
Speaker 1: to cut a path that that again, it came with
Speaker 1: some costs, but ultimately, like was this really rich sort
Speaker 1: of exposure to culture and a different kind of education
Speaker 1: that you know, I never lost the love for learning, actually,
Speaker 1: And that's interesting because a lot of people get to
Speaker 1: college and they're just exhausted by the academic experience. I personally,
Speaker 1: you know, I read more than most people I know,
Speaker 1: and I think one of these one of the reasons
Speaker 1: is is this right, I just love to absorb. You know,
Speaker 1: you went to Los Angeles then, specifically at that point
Speaker 1: fourteen to pursue a career. Yeah, yeah, the cliff notes
Speaker 1: are yes. The longer answer is, no one at thirteen,
Speaker 1: No one as a child is going with a parent
Speaker 1: to l a to pursue a career without some aspect
Speaker 1: of the family being like people needing to get away
Speaker 1: from each other, parents getting divorced, that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: So it's you know, it's always I mean, if you
Speaker 1: look at Hollywood as it like a control experiment or something,
Speaker 1: you know, you know that child actors are coming from
Speaker 1: often a lot of a lot of stuff and and
Speaker 1: so and so that was a part of it. But
Speaker 1: I did have the genuine desire to act, to pursue
Speaker 1: a life as a creative person, as an artist. And
Speaker 1: I'm not even saying that that's what I achieved, but
Speaker 1: that is what brought me there. And you know, and
Speaker 1: then I started working right off the bat, uh in
Speaker 1: in television and I virtually have not stopped since. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you had a number of recurring roles early on Young
Speaker 1: and the Restless, which, by the way, in terms of
Speaker 1: an education doing a soap opera, learning quickly how to
Speaker 1: be on set and how to be efficient and work,
Speaker 1: that's a great education, right, Yeah, I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: I did it briefly enough that I think, Yeah, it
Speaker 1: was just it kept me working. It kept me like
Speaker 1: if like I didn't study a lot, and as an actor,
Speaker 1: I was just sort of living by doing or sorry,
Speaker 1: learning by doing. And um, it was just it all
Speaker 1: was training, it all, you know, all those sort of
Speaker 1: recurring roles. I remember being very very nervous every time
Speaker 1: I went to Younger than Restless because it was right
Speaker 1: next to the Prices right studio, Okay, and that just
Speaker 1: is an iconic kinda I mean, young people now don't
Speaker 1: probably don't even know what that it is, but like,
Speaker 1: you know, it just was in the days of network
Speaker 1: television being the only way you consume anything and it
Speaker 1: being like a pillar of everybody's sort of life. You know,
Speaker 1: television news there to raise me and you know, the
Speaker 1: Price is Right is there to keep me company and
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, like so the Price is
Speaker 1: Right being a living, real thing right next to where
Speaker 1: we shot and everything, as you said, it moves fast,
Speaker 1: so like as a kid. Oh man, Actually, I haven't
Speaker 1: thought about this in a long time, but I was
Speaker 1: always so nervous going to work there because it just
Speaker 1: seemed huge. It was the CBS studios, you know, CBS
Speaker 1: Radford just this like giant kind of old Hollywood vibe everybody. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's yeah. I'm always fascinated with people who get into
Speaker 1: the business. And I hate the phrase to business, but
Speaker 1: I just used it early. Do you feel like you
Speaker 1: had a normal childhood? No? No, no, no, no not
Speaker 1: at all. No. I mean, in fact, part of what
Speaker 1: I even started my podcast for, which is like it's
Speaker 1: called podcrushed. It's this is not a plug, it's just
Speaker 1: the truth. Um. We were exploring middle school partly. And
Speaker 1: my two co hosts have their own middle school experiences,
Speaker 1: their own life experiences. Actually their teachers, they were teachers
Speaker 1: before they left at all the come stars. No, that's
Speaker 1: not what they're doing. But um, but I yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean I'm kind of openly processing what it was to
Speaker 1: have a late childhood and an adolescence and teen years
Speaker 1: and even early and even my twenties in in in
Speaker 1: this this business, you know, and and under the public
Speaker 1: eye more and more, and it's not normal yet it's not.
Speaker 1: I It's like, I, you know, just face value. It's like,
Speaker 1: wouldn't recommend it. It's like, if you go that route,
Speaker 1: be ready for soon. Some life brings us all challenges.
Speaker 1: I would say this, this kind of challenge is is
Speaker 1: extreme and it's unique, and there's no there's no clear
Speaker 1: reason anybody should subject themselves to it. That's what I
Speaker 1: would say, except except that you loved it. Well yeah,
Speaker 1: and so that's yeah, yeah, that's true. I mean, look, yes, um,
Speaker 1: but you know, I love the whole thing, and my
Speaker 1: pure love of the craft ultimately is what's carried me through.
Speaker 1: But so much of it I don't feel as though
Speaker 1: I've spent like refining the very participating in the art
Speaker 1: and refining the craft in its purest sense, so that like,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't feel as I've been living my
Speaker 1: life as like a working artist. That's not really what
Speaker 1: it feels like. It feels like I got into this
Speaker 1: business and it's very much a business, and then I
Speaker 1: spent a really long time doing like succeeding in the
Speaker 1: business as a player in it. And then I think,
Speaker 1: only now, after all this time, do I start to
Speaker 1: real they feel as though I can take some control
Speaker 1: of that and and and reclaim this feeling of being
Speaker 1: an artist, to be honest. Yeah, again, it's always interesting
Speaker 1: to me when I talked to someone who started so young,
Speaker 1: because I didn't quite frankly, and even talking about you know,
Speaker 1: being involved in theater and you know, having a variety,
Speaker 1: you know, being around people of different age. That really
Speaker 1: wasn't my experience because you know, I was essentially early
Speaker 1: on doing school play, so it was all my age essentially,
Speaker 1: So you know, I was even then playing the sixty
Speaker 1: year old may On or whatever. But you know the
Speaker 1: next next next to my friend was playing the young
Speaker 1: lover or whatever. Um, so yeah, you know, it was
Speaker 1: just it was just very and it wasn't until after,
Speaker 1: you know, after I got out of school that that
Speaker 1: that really started for me. But I I just I
Speaker 1: find it so interesting in it it makes sense that
Speaker 1: at such a young age you would feel sort of
Speaker 1: out of control and trying to find your way and
Speaker 1: make your way and not being able to sort of
Speaker 1: guide yourself down, you know as you as you say,
Speaker 1: an artist path, but really just trying to survive. And
Speaker 1: then you know, in your case, succeed in the business
Speaker 1: the business of acting. Yeah, which by the way, is
Speaker 1: a statistical anomaly. Success in the business is actually the
Speaker 1: exception that proves the rule that you will fail. I
Speaker 1: mean not to sound like what I mean is that
Speaker 1: anyone you succeed succeeding is actually the anomaly. The business
Speaker 1: is not one that offers any kind of like merit
Speaker 1: based metric. It's not. It's like it is. It is
Speaker 1: you see someone doing what you want to do. Guess
Speaker 1: what if it's a numbers thing that they're doing, it
Speaker 1: means that you can't, that you won't. I'm not based
Speaker 1: on your worth, not based on fairness. This is not just,
Speaker 1: but it is the way that it is, like the
Speaker 1: percentage of people who succeed versus the percent of people
Speaker 1: who fail is so disproportionate. Son even succeeding in all
Speaker 1: of it is like, wow, what is what is? It's gets,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a it's a crazy thing that we do.
Speaker 1: You uh, nineteen twenty years old, you already have a
Speaker 1: ton of credits under your belt. I was ready. I'm
Speaker 1: not kidding. I was ready to hang it up before
Speaker 1: I took Crossip Girl. I've been doing television for so long. Really,
Speaker 1: it was already so disillusioned with the process. I had
Speaker 1: done so many shows, series leads, series that at all
Speaker 1: gone to series, not just pilots that had then failed
Speaker 1: and been canceled. We try to get that back nine,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? You know the first season
Speaker 1: in the office, you know, you know, how is it
Speaker 1: a struggle a compatas to get a show to make it?
Speaker 1: And I was just like, you know, I can't do
Speaker 1: TV anymore. I just can't. And that's why when Crossip
Speaker 1: Grow came along, I initially did say no, but anyway, sorry,
Speaker 1: you can know so you you so no, So you
Speaker 1: you have the opportunity for Gossip Girl comes and you
Speaker 1: say no, Yeah, I mean so so the so the
Speaker 1: co creator, Stephanie Savage, she actually asked me. She emailed
Speaker 1: me the script and she said, you know, I feel
Speaker 1: like you will have already she her words in my
Speaker 1: memory are I think that you will feel like you've
Speaker 1: already done this, which is play the flappy haired, awkward kid. Okay,
Speaker 1: because that's what I had done on the show we'd
Speaker 1: worked together on like two or three years previous. When
Speaker 1: I was seventeen years old. I lived in Vancouver for
Speaker 1: the best six months on a show called The Mountain
Speaker 1: where I was playing this young professional snowboarder and a
Speaker 1: show that was basically like the pitch was. It was
Speaker 1: Dynasty on a Mountain, Okay, and she co created that
Speaker 1: show with mcg at the time was huge with the
Speaker 1: OC and all this stuff. So then she and Josh
Speaker 1: Schwartz got together to to make Gossip Girl, and um,
Speaker 1: she emails me the concept the script and was like,
Speaker 1: I would really love you to look at it, Dan,
Speaker 1: even though I feel like you you'll probably not want
Speaker 1: to do it. And I read it and I said
Speaker 1: thank you, and you're right, you know, thank you for
Speaker 1: thinking of me, but respectfully like, yeah, this is just
Speaker 1: not what I'm interested in doing right now, and the
Speaker 1: opportunity went away and they cast everybody else. I couldn't
Speaker 1: find who they thought was Dan. Um. She comes back
Speaker 1: and sort of gives me a little bit of a
Speaker 1: a plea, I mean plea maybe sounds not. It wasn't
Speaker 1: like desperate, it was more like it. She she pitched
Speaker 1: me on the idea that I was Dan and Um,
Speaker 1: I ultimately was sold on it and and said, yes,
Speaker 1: why what made you change your mind? Um? Honestly something
Speaker 1: that did not even pan out, like I don't feel
Speaker 1: like she was she she meant what she said, but
Speaker 1: what she said was that she was interested in the
Speaker 1: fact that he was like the sort of moral center
Speaker 1: of the show, like a sort of male lead of
Speaker 1: the show I think at its outset. And she was
Speaker 1: sort of pitching me on like this idea that three
Speaker 1: years prior I had done our show where I started
Speaker 1: out in a in a recurring role, and then that
Speaker 1: role became slowly kind of the heart of how she
Speaker 1: saw the show that I was in every episode I
Speaker 1: think in the end and by the end, I was
Speaker 1: like a really a main character, and she was like,
Speaker 1: you know, think about that's that was the ark with
Speaker 1: your last guy, you know, And I've done another series
Speaker 1: of Warner Brothers since then. And actually he was in college,
Speaker 1: so I was taking a step back into high school.
Speaker 1: And at twenty years old, I was like, high school?
Speaker 1: Are you kidding me? Like I'm like, like my sideburns
Speaker 1: are down to my jaw. I don't, I don't, I'm not.
Speaker 1: I'm not, like you know all I've never even been
Speaker 1: to high school. And I honestly was just I just
Speaker 1: so wanted to play other things and other people and
Speaker 1: and and other ideas. But she kind of had this idea.
Speaker 1: She was like, you know, this time, you'll be starting
Speaker 1: out as a sort of heart of the show, and
Speaker 1: you know, just think of where it can go from
Speaker 1: there and and what's interesting about class of Girl. And
Speaker 1: I say this as a witness, not as like a
Speaker 1: I think I took it personally initially, and I am
Speaker 1: I complained as a young and but what I see
Speaker 1: it now and just just purely with detachment and like
Speaker 1: you know, distance and time. The whole point at Gossip
Speaker 1: Girl was that Dan was not meant to He was
Speaker 1: not the heart. Like the show wasn't so concerned with
Speaker 1: having a heart. It was concerned with this aspirational as
Speaker 1: we say, this sort of fantasy of of the of
Speaker 1: the elite, you know, of the of the glamorous, of
Speaker 1: which basically doesn't exist, you know, but but yeah, it's
Speaker 1: this like fantasy life of youth. And and actually, in
Speaker 1: Chuck and Blair, who I think very quickly became the
Speaker 1: clear heart or hearts of the show, or the bivalve
Speaker 1: heart of the show, the whole point was that they
Speaker 1: were not moral. The whole point was that they were.
Speaker 1: They weren't immoral, but they were a moral They were
Speaker 1: sort of like, they did what served them. And at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, because they were portrayed by
Speaker 1: two talented actors, those characters had such depth and such
Speaker 1: range because actually, when you play people who are who
Speaker 1: are not sure about what's right, you ultimately get a
Speaker 1: more compelling story. And I mean that's why, you know,
Speaker 1: years later, I'm playing a serial killer and people haven't
Speaker 1: ever responded more positively, you know. And I think it's
Speaker 1: a sign of like the sort of stories that we're
Speaker 1: interested in, in in what we get from stories. It's actually
Speaker 1: very hard to tell a story about a moral center.
Speaker 1: It's it's I'm not saying that it's not a good story.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's not worth trying, but I'm saying
Speaker 1: that it's Currently we live in an age where it's
Speaker 1: it's more compelling off the bat to tell a story
Speaker 1: about a bad person who's trying, who's trying, because I
Speaker 1: think we can identify more readily with that visceral level
Speaker 1: of struggle. And people also don't want to be told
Speaker 1: what's yeah, exactly, what is right? Yeah, Actually that's never
Speaker 1: worked with anybody, so any right, yeah, then it becomes
Speaker 1: preaching well exactly. And I think in sense, Dan coupled
Speaker 1: with the way that I unconsciously played him, became righteous
Speaker 1: and annoying, you know. And and that's and that makes
Speaker 1: sense at least, I'll say this. I think true stands
Speaker 1: of Gossip Girl usually seem to align with the Chuck
Speaker 1: and Blair kind of like thing. And that's that. I
Speaker 1: do think it's really seems to me, like I remember
Speaker 1: when it happened the first season was episode six. They
Speaker 1: were the kind of unexpected relationship that then just worked
Speaker 1: and then it became the heart of the show really
Speaker 1: and and I think that no one anticipated that, but
Speaker 1: it was a sign of the times. It was like, ah,
Speaker 1: and a sign of what you just said, which is like,
Speaker 1: you can't start out with somebody who's who's like always
Speaker 1: right or something or who and who always thinks that
Speaker 1: they're good and then just complains about how no one
Speaker 1: else is as good as them. That's not that's not
Speaker 1: as interesting, it's not and it's not it's actually not
Speaker 1: humble in the end, did you view yourself as the
Speaker 1: outsider on the ship? In life? On the show? On
Speaker 1: the show, did I view Dan as the outsider? As
Speaker 1: Dan as the outsider? I mean, that's who he's identified as.
Speaker 1: But to me, the joke is always like, bro, how
Speaker 1: much more on the inside could you be? You're just
Speaker 1: not in the deepest of the inner circle. But you're
Speaker 1: in the same school. You're you're a you're a white boy.
Speaker 1: You know, you're you know, your dad was a rock star,
Speaker 1: and you live in a three million dollar apartment rather
Speaker 1: than a thirty million dollar mansion. So like, if you
Speaker 1: think you're on the outside, Dan Humphrey, I'm sorry, but
Speaker 1: you have a lot of learning to do. You just
Speaker 1: aren't literally inside the inside of the inside. You're just
Speaker 1: on the outspirit of the inside, you know. So Uh,
Speaker 1: when did you find out that that he's got the
Speaker 1: Gossip Girl? I think right like just the day before
Speaker 1: we started shooting in that final episode I believe now
Speaker 1: at the beginning of that season, the producers did tell
Speaker 1: me they kind of cryptically like Dan is going to
Speaker 1: assume more power this season, so I just get ready
Speaker 1: and and you know, in a typically seasons or twenty
Speaker 1: six episodes, but we that's season only did a half
Speaker 1: order like of ten or something like that. So I
Speaker 1: remember thinking like, wells, you have to get there pretty
Speaker 1: soon or um, yeah, And but I didn't know what
Speaker 1: that meant. And I didn't even think that it was
Speaker 1: about being gossip Girl at all, like not even remotely,
Speaker 1: because you know, if you try to break it down logically,
Speaker 1: it's you know, it doesn't really make sense for anybody
Speaker 1: to have been Gossip Girl other than de Rota or
Speaker 1: some other more peripheral character. M hm. I mean this
Speaker 1: marks the first time that you work on a really
Speaker 1: long running show with the same group of people, largely
Speaker 1: the same cast. How how is that? How was that
Speaker 1: different for you one playing that character um being able
Speaker 1: to play through multiple arcs over several seasons, but also
Speaker 1: play alongside your cast mates for for that long. You know,
Speaker 1: it's a lot of things. I mean, the first things
Speaker 1: that come to mind are totally like sensory and mo stional,
Speaker 1: like man, it was just those superformative years of being
Speaker 1: in your early and mid twenties and youth. How was it,
Speaker 1: you know, the arcs, the character, the cast. I feel
Speaker 1: like for me, I was never as invested in the
Speaker 1: story as I was in the experience. I was never
Speaker 1: as invested in the show as I was in like
Speaker 1: the set, like the like the cast and crew I was.
Speaker 1: I was never as invested in Dan as I was
Speaker 1: in having new experiences as an actor, and so unfortunately,
Speaker 1: I think what that meant as a as a as
Speaker 1: a as a young and hungry professional, I constantly felt
Speaker 1: the limitations of the show and the role, which is
Speaker 1: not right. You know, it's like it's but it is.
Speaker 1: It is I think common for such a for for
Speaker 1: for young people thrust into that position. But what I
Speaker 1: do think, I mean, you know, I had, of course
Speaker 1: the first couple of years, had had a relationship with
Speaker 1: Blake Lively, and that that that was its own bubble
Speaker 1: experience of portraying Dan and Serena and being together, and
Speaker 1: that was really, when you break it down, that's actually
Speaker 1: a very surreal experience. Another one I would not necessarily
Speaker 1: recommend to others, but if you somehow find yourself there,
Speaker 1: go ahead and journal because it's weird, of course, which
Speaker 1: I'll you know, always be grateful for those experiences, really
Speaker 1: really lovely things ultimately went out in memory. But but weird,
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's it's a it's an intensive way
Speaker 1: to do things. And yeah, I don't even know what
Speaker 1: I think about the character because to me, it's very
Speaker 1: that that show was so intimately connected to our personal
Speaker 1: lives in the tabloids. I gotta honestly say, like, and
Speaker 1: I'm saying this again as a witness, this is not
Speaker 1: in the realm of complaint. I really see it as
Speaker 1: like we were too young to really understand what's going on.
Speaker 1: It was too much of a frothy pop gossip an
Speaker 1: engine on its own, you know. And I just feel
Speaker 1: like it was very hard to separate life from from fiction.
Speaker 1: And yes, and I personally didn't like that. I actually
Speaker 1: didn't want more of that. I can't. I don't know
Speaker 1: how you guys did it. Now, I joked with jess
Speaker 1: Or about this, and I was not going to say
Speaker 1: this to you because I didn't know what your experience
Speaker 1: was or what you know. Look, I don't follow the tabloids,
Speaker 1: so I don't. To me, it doesn't matter what the
Speaker 1: machinations or what the pairings were. But all I know
Speaker 1: is every time I would run into those guys, which
Speaker 1: I would run into jess Or Chase or Sebastian or
Speaker 1: Ed as I mentioned at various times throughout the year,
Speaker 1: but months would go by because I was in l
Speaker 1: A and you guys were in New York. I couldn't
Speaker 1: I couldn't keep it straight. I couldn't keep it straight
Speaker 1: who was with who because I felt like one summer
Speaker 1: two of you guys would be together, and by Christmas
Speaker 1: time that wasn't happening anymore. But everybody was still cool
Speaker 1: with each other and going out together. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: but now you were with someone else and it was
Speaker 1: playing out differently on the show, so that was confusing.
Speaker 1: I don't know how you did it. I don't know
Speaker 1: how you how you lived through it. I truly don't. Again,
Speaker 1: I don't recommend it to anybody, but if you find
Speaker 1: yourself in the position, journal my friend, you journal like
Speaker 1: you have never journal before. It'll be really interesting later on,
Speaker 1: and you're gonna need to process it with your therapist.
Speaker 1: So it's just a short cut, a short cut. You
Speaker 1: You you cling to that journal, young gossip girl. You
Speaker 1: cling onto it like your sanity depends on it. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny as that I didn't journal throughout
Speaker 1: those years, and which is why I'm saying is but um, yeah, man,
Speaker 1: look I mean it. It is a it is a
Speaker 1: completely constructed thing. It's not normal to to to put
Speaker 1: we're portraying people younger than we are who live relationships
Speaker 1: as though they're forty year old billionaires, right, you know,
Speaker 1: the sort of the level of emotional nuance and like
Speaker 1: sexual experience that all these teenagers are meant to be demonstrating,
Speaker 1: it literally is more like the it's more like the
Speaker 1: love lives of a theater company in Paris in like
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty. Like, it's not the way that teenagers live,
Speaker 1: and not even most adults in America live. Um, but
Speaker 1: then you know you you so, so we're they're kind
Speaker 1: of bringing that thing to life. And then but then
Speaker 1: you keep us together for years on end without any
Speaker 1: any of course elsewhere, like we couldn't unless we die
Speaker 1: on the show, we can't. We can't get out of
Speaker 1: this thing. We're not gonna so so so we're continually
Speaker 1: thrust together. And I think the reality is that young
Speaker 1: actors actors in general, really relate to one another in
Speaker 1: a way that no one else is going to be
Speaker 1: able to relate, which is often why they find relationships together.
Speaker 1: You know, Um, it's actually why I cherished so much
Speaker 1: that my wife is not an actress. Yes, but I
Speaker 1: realized now why I was, why I had a couple
Speaker 1: of significant relationships with actresses, because no one else can
Speaker 1: quite understand what you're doing and and uniquely on that show,
Speaker 1: what was happening then, So you know, that's right, that's right. No,
Speaker 1: but yeah, you you guys at that time, and part
Speaker 1: of it was in New York too. I mean, I
Speaker 1: think that's a huge New York a huge party. You
Speaker 1: were the biggest kind of pop hit culture show in
Speaker 1: New York and you're all and who else can relate
Speaker 1: to you at that well, just one of the people
Speaker 1: you're working with exactly, No, exactly, And you know, to
Speaker 1: be fair, the way that Blake and I got in
Speaker 1: relationship and sort of more or less clung to one another.
Speaker 1: I think it was a certain it was a safety
Speaker 1: and it and it worked by the way, like I
Speaker 1: think those first couple of years of the show was
Speaker 1: when we were all gonna get broadsided by fame and
Speaker 1: all that more than any other you know, And I
Speaker 1: think in a way we were it was a safety mechanism.
Speaker 1: Like I'm not saying that it was in a legitimate
Speaker 1: relationship and we loved each other and stuff, but you know,
Speaker 1: when I look back, I'm like, man, I'm thankful for
Speaker 1: that relationship for that reason. You know, we we actually
Speaker 1: didn't engage socially the same way that that that everyone
Speaker 1: else kind of was thrust into it because you know,
Speaker 1: the other relationships were cycling through a lot faster and
Speaker 1: for better or worse, ours was longer and that and
Speaker 1: I do think it was a safety. You keep in
Speaker 1: touch with those guys still, you know. So I had
Speaker 1: Chase on the show, and I oh, and I had
Speaker 1: Laton on the show and Sebastian. So it's kind of
Speaker 1: like a smattering. It's like a it's like a we
Speaker 1: don't were like roommates from college where we remember each
Speaker 1: other fondly, but we're not always right in touch, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you talked earlier of your first and maybe more significant
Speaker 1: love of music. Um, I want to talk to you
Speaker 1: little bit about mother, Okay, yeah, with an X, with
Speaker 1: an X, yes, I have to be clear about that.
Speaker 1: Were you excited, I mean this this starts around the
Speaker 1: time Gossip Girl ends. Were you excited to do something
Speaker 1: in a new direction and pursue that sort of original love?
Speaker 1: Very yeah? Actually know it's funny, I haven't. I haven't
Speaker 1: spoken about mother really in an interview at length in
Speaker 1: a while, I don't think, which is so thank you
Speaker 1: for the opportunity. Um. Yeah. So by the time gossip
Speaker 1: Girl was ending, Remember how I said that I I
Speaker 1: was kind of thinking about hanging it up at least
Speaker 1: in terms of television by the by the time Gossip
Speaker 1: Girl came around, right, So I felt that way. Even
Speaker 1: more so by the end of gossip Girl because it
Speaker 1: was such a full on experience, I really wanted to
Speaker 1: pursue acting more. I didn't know what kind of opportunities
Speaker 1: would present themselves. So I knew, you know, I've done
Speaker 1: a few great film roles that were very encouraging and
Speaker 1: inspiring and then ultimately lead to music because I played
Speaker 1: a role I played of Buckley in this in this
Speaker 1: very kind of small, quiet biopic. It was not a
Speaker 1: traditional biopic in that sense. It's just like this little
Speaker 1: snapshot right kind of viaby movie and playing a musician,
Speaker 1: you know, it was just finally kind of things felt
Speaker 1: like they were meeting where I loved and then and
Speaker 1: then after so yeah, so Gossip Girl ends, and I
Speaker 1: just really wanted to play music and I had. I mean,
Speaker 1: the key thing is that I had this great friendship
Speaker 1: with His name is Jimmy Gianopolis, who's actually now directing movies,
Speaker 1: and I've done is it one or two? I feel
Speaker 1: like I've done bit parts and at least one of
Speaker 1: his movies. But it's funny that I can't remember because
Speaker 1: we that's the nature of our relationship. We we we
Speaker 1: met back in what we just immediately knew that we
Speaker 1: would make things together. By the time Gossip girlins and
Speaker 1: late finally there's some time we start recording this thing.
Speaker 1: We include two other friends, the four of us become
Speaker 1: this really tight knit unit for like a month and
Speaker 1: make this record, and then we got a deal and
Speaker 1: and toured that record on and off for three years.
Speaker 1: And by the end of those three years, we had
Speaker 1: done what is very hard to do. We had gone
Speaker 1: to a point where we could sell out, you know,
Speaker 1: like a five capacity club and in all the major
Speaker 1: in like a major city like New York, London, l A,
Speaker 1: places in South America as well, like and uh, we
Speaker 1: we could have actually kept continued except the fact that
Speaker 1: like we'd we'd overcome those professional hurdles of making music
Speaker 1: that people want to go see and pay money for
Speaker 1: in the age of streaming, which is a racket. I
Speaker 1: don't know how people do it now. It's just insane.
Speaker 1: But with the four of us, we're now unfriendly terms.
Speaker 1: But we we really couldn't work together creatively. Then something
Speaker 1: some think something about the foundation of the way it
Speaker 1: all started. It just didn't really pave the way for
Speaker 1: more than one record to be made. We couldn't. We
Speaker 1: didn't find that we could work together in the same way,
Speaker 1: and that's that's a shame, but it is it's also
Speaker 1: I think very common. You know, it's hard to it's
Speaker 1: like being married to to three other guys. You know,
Speaker 1: it's just it's it's uh engaging in a in a
Speaker 1: creative and and business partnership is like you better get
Speaker 1: ready again cling to your journal that that's my maunch
Speaker 1: for today. Well, but and you're also spending I mean,
Speaker 1: so you're engaging in business and creative and then you're,
Speaker 1: as you say, you're going on tour. So then you're
Speaker 1: also living together. Oh yeah, yeah, and and you know, travel, sleeping,
Speaker 1: advance together. And it's always so scrappy because you need
Speaker 1: to make a lot of money to be able to
Speaker 1: do that in a way that it's not scrappy tour
Speaker 1: and uh so it was really, uh it was great.
Speaker 1: It was actually you know what, it was a little
Speaker 1: bit like I was finally doing what I never got
Speaker 1: to do as a teenager. And then but it was
Speaker 1: in my my mid to late twenties, I was getting
Speaker 1: to have a band and like grow out my hair,
Speaker 1: and we started in shows that were so small and
Speaker 1: so bad, and then by the end of it, we
Speaker 1: were actually knowing how to really like rock a crowd
Speaker 1: of five hundred, six hundred people, it was like. And
Speaker 1: we also did play We got the chance to open
Speaker 1: for much bigger acts and play big festivals, and we
Speaker 1: would sometimes play for crowds that were like ten fifteen thousand,
Speaker 1: and that was man, that was actually I can't believe
Speaker 1: we did that. It's it's it's really, it's really really
Speaker 1: a lot at that level of performance. It's it's but
Speaker 1: if you when you find yourself in those moments, like,
Speaker 1: it is special, it's very special. Yeah. But no, no
Speaker 1: more albums and not from other No. And I and
Speaker 1: I mean, all those guys kept going on with it,
Speaker 1: and they're all very talented producers and songwriters and musicians
Speaker 1: and their own right, and they're all just you know,
Speaker 1: making it work the way that artists do. But yeah,
Speaker 1: and I might put out of I might. I might
Speaker 1: actually get it together and put out a record of
Speaker 1: some kind in the future. But you know, it's not
Speaker 1: it's it's what I was saying earlier about, just like
Speaker 1: the the racket, the age of streaming, the same way
Speaker 1: that has changed television in a large part in film,
Speaker 1: it's changed music even more, I think, because it's like
Speaker 1: the only way to make money as to tour, and
Speaker 1: touring is a very intense lifestyle, and so I think
Speaker 1: in order to make it worth it, you need to
Speaker 1: be very successful. You had a song on the album
Speaker 1: called Victim and attempting to make one of the greatest
Speaker 1: segues in the history of podcasting. I think I know
Speaker 1: you're going with this your next show. You come on.
Speaker 1: That was pretty good bright to you that we're going.
Speaker 1: It's certainly the most unique I've gotten. And I do
Speaker 1: want to say it's the best because that's a good
Speaker 1: song too. It's one of my favorite songs of ours.
Speaker 1: I knew that. That's why I said it. Uh Stalker
Speaker 1: murderer Joe Goldberg and you Now I have to tell you,
Speaker 1: I well, I mean, I guess the word is binged.
Speaker 1: I binged season one. I have, I have, I have
Speaker 1: watched every episode of the show. I don't it is
Speaker 1: we were talking about before, so I'm gonna bring it
Speaker 1: up now because we're talking about uh you. It is
Speaker 1: in line with what you know many people call the
Speaker 1: Golden Age of television, which I identify as being the
Speaker 1: time where we found the anti hero. Yeah, I would
Speaker 1: agree with you. There the greatest you know in in
Speaker 1: in my opinion, being Tony Rano or or yes, break
Speaker 1: Walter White breaking Bad, many many others um and I
Speaker 1: It's it's compelling in that way, but of course different.
Speaker 1: It is different because it's funny when you say, when
Speaker 1: you bring up those two, I mean, I don't ever
Speaker 1: in my mind include Joe Goldberg in the same realm.
Speaker 1: And I'm not giving the same kind of performance, and
Speaker 1: it isn't the same kind of show, but you are
Speaker 1: right that it is part of In a way, I
Speaker 1: feel like my show You is now kind of like
Speaker 1: an entrance into the next iteration of this golden era
Speaker 1: where of the anti hero, because the show is so
Speaker 1: like um, almost like self referencing. It's it is popular.
Speaker 1: It's not the clinical portrayal of a real killer. It's
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's not a man falling
Speaker 1: from grace. It's a man starting out as this sort
Speaker 1: of like evil deconstruction of the same trope we've been
Speaker 1: imbibing for the last couple of decades, you know, and
Speaker 1: like John Hughes movies and stuff, romantic tropes of of
Speaker 1: a good man. Yes, I think that's true. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: and there's never a real attempt to be good. Yet
Speaker 1: we do find ourselves caring about him and what ultimately
Speaker 1: is going to happen to him. Um, I understand you.
Speaker 1: You almost didn't take this role as well, right, Evidently
Speaker 1: that's just part of my character, my my pan Batics
Speaker 1: character flaws. Yes, I was in a similar position where
Speaker 1: so after my band mother. Actually, you know what, this
Speaker 1: was a good segue because you're tracking, you're kind of
Speaker 1: going through the actual timeline here. I haven't done I
Speaker 1: haven't done an interview like this in a very long time.
Speaker 1: Thank you, So kudos to you. I had so my
Speaker 1: band had just dissolved. We had just done the thing
Speaker 1: that was very hard to do, and then realized we
Speaker 1: couldn't make another record, and so that was a bit
Speaker 1: of spiriting. I was considering exploring a solo career in
Speaker 1: music and actually had some meetings set up with labels.
Speaker 1: The script comes along, and again I actually was like,
Speaker 1: you know what, this is not initially what I'm interested in.
Speaker 1: It felt it just felt like I couldn't appreciate the
Speaker 1: places it would go and how different it actually was,
Speaker 1: because you know, when television, you only get to read
Speaker 1: the pilot, and in the pilot, a lot of what
Speaker 1: I was resisting was where I felt like I saw
Speaker 1: Dan Humphrey, you know what I mean, And if you
Speaker 1: look at the very first scene where Joe meets back,
Speaker 1: I'm basically Dan Humphrey. And then performance was because I
Speaker 1: actually mean you all in every way, the way that
Speaker 1: I look, the way that I'm acting, the way that
Speaker 1: the character is behaving. This sort of conceit of a
Speaker 1: man falling in love with a woman who's unattainable, but
Speaker 1: who he's actually going to end up with. Um, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. It's like, it's it's it's I
Speaker 1: don't remember the first scene, but I believe he's a
Speaker 1: book snorting yeah, yeah, and Dan was a writer, you know.
Speaker 1: So it's just it's just it's a it's to me,
Speaker 1: I think, what actually the reason it all works. And
Speaker 1: then what's brilliant about it is that it's kind of
Speaker 1: picking up not where Gossip Girl and Dan left off,
Speaker 1: but it's picking up where that era of that kind
Speaker 1: of show leaves off. Because look, even the Gossip Girl reboot,
Speaker 1: it doesn't it's it doesn't hit the same like we
Speaker 1: don't live in the same age, we don't live in
Speaker 1: the same political time, we don't live in the same time.
Speaker 1: Where like the way climate change literally generates anxiety and
Speaker 1: generations of youth, we didn't have that. We should have,
Speaker 1: by the way, but we didn't have it in two
Speaker 1: thousands seven, you know, like like it's just not the same.
Speaker 1: People don't feel the same people don't, you know, So
Speaker 1: therefore they don't want to see the same thing. And
Speaker 1: I think why I might show you works is that
Speaker 1: it kind of brilliantly sees that takes the sort of
Speaker 1: conceit of a romantic lead, whether he's Dan Humphrey or
Speaker 1: or he's from something early three decades prior in John
Speaker 1: Hughes film you know, and it, and it starts there,
Speaker 1: but says this is there's something wrong with this, there's
Speaker 1: something wrong with these ideas. Let's start. And I'm not
Speaker 1: saying that there's nothing right about the idea of romance
Speaker 1: in the way we've seen it in movies. But this
Speaker 1: show is not a show that's doing that. It's exploring
Speaker 1: what's really actually kind of crazy and toxic about a
Speaker 1: lot of romantic tropes, particularly in the portrayal of men
Speaker 1: as romantic leads kind of like needing to win the
Speaker 1: affection of women and thereby just sort of perpetionally objectifying them.
Speaker 1: So I think it's to me that's what's really cool.
Speaker 1: But I couldn't feel and see all of that when
Speaker 1: I first read the pilot. I really just saw the
Speaker 1: things that it shared as opposed to the things that
Speaker 1: it did really differently, and so I was really really
Speaker 1: hesitant and and sort of tried to say no to
Speaker 1: to Greg Berlante. But it was my conversations with him
Speaker 1: and Sarah Gamble, who co created the show together, and
Speaker 1: it's really Sarah Gamble's journey as a showrunner's her creation,
Speaker 1: her baby. Um, it's my conversations with them that that
Speaker 1: convinced me that it was like, oh, this is really
Speaker 1: doing something different and it will be really really interesting
Speaker 1: to do. I have to ask you a question. Now,
Speaker 1: there's an obvious answer here, but I'm trying to go
Speaker 1: a little bit deeper. So indulge me for just a second.
Speaker 1: Why Joe is a fairly charismatic and on the surface
Speaker 1: likable character, Right, He's able, He's a likable guy. He's
Speaker 1: a you know, moderately attractive of course, played by moderately.
Speaker 1: I'm stressing that word attractive, played by you. Why does
Speaker 1: he feel as though he must do what he does?
Speaker 1: Or is it just I'm trying to get it when yeah,
Speaker 1: truly exploring like why does he why does he feel
Speaker 1: he must do what? He does as opposed to break
Speaker 1: because there are several times I feel like the character
Speaker 1: is going to break away from this and he can't
Speaker 1: do you know why? Well, so there's like three levels
Speaker 1: to this answer, and I don't know which one to
Speaker 1: So on one hand, I think the writers would give
Speaker 1: you a better answer that pertains to the to Joe
Speaker 1: Goldberg than I can. As an actor. I just I
Speaker 1: can't really question a lot of this stuff. I just
Speaker 1: have to believe what I'm saying, and that's what I
Speaker 1: try to do. And then I think, So there's there's
Speaker 1: two levels to it. One is that I think the
Speaker 1: show is always meant to be more are of a
Speaker 1: of a metaphor or it's a work of like fiction
Speaker 1: that is somewhat fantastical and campy in the way that
Speaker 1: it's exploring the story of this man and always at
Speaker 1: the end grounding it in something that resonates so profoundly
Speaker 1: as like emotionally consistent and truth, so that it always
Speaker 1: comes home in this way that like truly good fiction
Speaker 1: is of course it's real because it resonates no matter
Speaker 1: how fantastical it is. It's doing something where it is like,
Speaker 1: oh that's yeah, like I'm having a true I'm having
Speaker 1: some kind of reflection that it's worthwhile because it's like
Speaker 1: there's something true here even though it's a total fiction.
Speaker 1: In that way, there's something deep happening. But I think
Speaker 1: when it comes to Joe as a killer and as
Speaker 1: a person who really does that behavior, I don't think
Speaker 1: he's I don't think anybody's ever tried to ground him
Speaker 1: in in like the clinical reality of someone who does that,
Speaker 1: this sort of pathological makeup, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Because I think like at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: he feels too much and is maybe too inconsistent to
Speaker 1: truly be what a real killer would be, like say,
Speaker 1: I don't know, but then us at the same time,
Speaker 1: I think Ted Bundy was evidently very like I don't know,
Speaker 1: he had a lot, he had what didn't he have
Speaker 1: like a family and he and then there's a gay
Speaker 1: cy I guess, was like evidently loved by his community,
Speaker 1: and and so you know, there's there's I actually don't
Speaker 1: know that much about zero Killers in in truth. I mean,
Speaker 1: I I just think that what the writers are exploring
Speaker 1: is something different. I think it's like an I think
Speaker 1: it's like an exercise you know, it's like a meditation.
Speaker 1: And so there are things that Joe does that are
Speaker 1: you know, maybe impossible or inconsistent, and that's not the point.
Speaker 1: I think the point is where examining something and it
Speaker 1: always comes home in something that really makes sense. And
Speaker 1: so then on the other level, where if Joe is,
Speaker 1: if we're trying to understand why Joe really does this,
Speaker 1: which is to say why anybody could or would do this,
Speaker 1: it all has to do with I think unprocessed trauma.
Speaker 1: You know, it comes to maleness, like masculinity, when it
Speaker 1: comes to whiteness, when it comes to any any behavior
Speaker 1: that someone exhibits that is ultimately violent to like another
Speaker 1: group of people, because it's not Joe does kill people,
Speaker 1: but it's he's uniquely violent towards women, the same way
Speaker 1: that like there is racial violence. It is if something
Speaker 1: is racially motivated, something is motivated by a bias, you know,
Speaker 1: by prejudice. As my understanding, you know, many brilliant, famous
Speaker 1: thinkers have said something like this. The person who comes
Speaker 1: to mind is Bell Hooks, a black woman sort of
Speaker 1: think her philosopher activists many things. She said something the
Speaker 1: effect of, like, you know, the first casualty in um,
Speaker 1: she didn't say toxic masculinity because I I don't think
Speaker 1: that was such so much to phrase them, which in
Speaker 1: my understanding, she's talking about like, you know, maleness, like
Speaker 1: in male violence, you know, but the first casualty is
Speaker 1: to that man, to his soul. And I think it's
Speaker 1: the same and racially motivated violent all forms of violence,
Speaker 1: you know, the first act, the first casualty, the first
Speaker 1: act of violence is to the person who's perpetrating it.
Speaker 1: And I think that one of the reasons this show
Speaker 1: also really resonates is that that is we're looking at again,
Speaker 1: not a clinical portrayal, but like this sort of the
Speaker 1: way that something in Lord of the Rings resonates as true.
Speaker 1: It's ultimately about like what perseverance, about friendship, about I
Speaker 1: don't know, like I'm not really sure. I'm not really
Speaker 1: Lord of the Rings person, but it's right, like, it's
Speaker 1: not about it's not about the ring, it's about something else.
Speaker 1: That's what this show is. Well, that's what I think,
Speaker 1: That's what I think. Yeah, I know, I agree with you.
Speaker 1: I mean there's something about as you mentioned before, well
Speaker 1: one the objectification of women by him, for sure, But
Speaker 1: I think that also, And I think what it is
Speaker 1: why it just the show I can't stop watching it
Speaker 1: is it has to do it. It's something about it's
Speaker 1: the idealization of what love love and specifically what what
Speaker 1: Hollywood quote unquote or movies or shows or whatever tells
Speaker 1: us about love and what it should be or what
Speaker 1: it can be and how it should manifest itself. I
Speaker 1: agree with you, Yeah, yeah, I know That's what I've
Speaker 1: tapped into as a thinking person with my role. I
Speaker 1: don't always necessarily think about this, like between action and cut,
Speaker 1: Like when I'm having Joe, it's like, it just is
Speaker 1: what it is. But the way that it really are
Speaker 1: resonates to me is exactly what you said, Like it
Speaker 1: isn't even about you know when I talk about yeah,
Speaker 1: it isn't even really about It isn't just about the
Speaker 1: objectification of women. It's it's it is I think much
Speaker 1: more about, like, well, this guy like if he's if
Speaker 1: he's doing all this, the first person he's doing it
Speaker 1: to is an self, but because he can't recognize that,
Speaker 1: he then has to do it to other people, you know.
Speaker 1: And so and I think that really crazy myth of
Speaker 1: love that Hollywood has unconsciously and also in some cases
Speaker 1: consciously sold us basically since its inception is that that
Speaker 1: you you have to feel as though you're like addicted
Speaker 1: to a freaking drug. Otherwise there's no love. Otherwise there's
Speaker 1: passion and and it's akin to believing in magic. It's like,
Speaker 1: if I'm not feeling these feelings like I can't have
Speaker 1: anything to do with love, then if it's not a practice,
Speaker 1: it's not a discipline. It's this magical feeling that visits
Speaker 1: me that I have to feel, and if I don't
Speaker 1: feel it, then I must not be in love. And
Speaker 1: you know, all people I think are somewhat victim to
Speaker 1: this idea of love that is actually really really unhelpful
Speaker 1: if you want to have a relationship, and I think
Speaker 1: Joe is more than anything victim to that. It's like,
Speaker 1: you don't understand the first thing about love. You actually don't.
Speaker 1: You actually do not understand a single thing about it.
Speaker 1: And you know what that is sad, and you know
Speaker 1: what the first person to get hurt and all of
Speaker 1: that is you. That's the title at all, Just you
Speaker 1: fascinating season four coming up, your directorial debut. That's right? Yeah,
Speaker 1: how was that was? That fun. It was fun. It
Speaker 1: was also like we didn't have time for me to
Speaker 1: watch playback, so it was chaotic. I mean I was
Speaker 1: I was kind of directing with my eyes closed. So
Speaker 1: I I feel good about it. I feel good about
Speaker 1: the cut. I haven't seen the final finals. They take
Speaker 1: it and do their do their do their work to it.
Speaker 1: But UM, great experience overall, like, yeah, something you want
Speaker 1: to keep doing. I don't know that I can do
Speaker 1: it on my show. In fact, I'm almost positive I can't.
Speaker 1: It was too much at all. At the same time,
Speaker 1: it just wasn't really feat because Joe is placed so
Speaker 1: centrally in the show, like there was no opportunity for
Speaker 1: me to prep adequately. So again, the thing that enables
Speaker 1: me to do it is also of the thing that
Speaker 1: hinders me from doing it. So I think, like I
Speaker 1: would love, I mean I do, I am in the
Speaker 1: works to direct something else, but but not I don't
Speaker 1: think I can do my own show what We'll See.
Speaker 1: You mentioned it before pod Crushed Premier this year earlier
Speaker 1: this year. How has how has that been? Man, it's
Speaker 1: been It's been a real joy, you know, because it's like,
Speaker 1: even though it's only one half of the medium of film.
Speaker 1: It's just the audio mostly. UM say for bonus content,
Speaker 1: would you can find it on on YouTube channel would Um
Speaker 1: It's like it's an exercise and production, you know, I
Speaker 1: mean I kind of love it, Like like me and
Speaker 1: my two producing partners, we're cutting our teeth with it
Speaker 1: and it's it's great. It's um you know. And just
Speaker 1: this the stories that we get from everybody, I think
Speaker 1: is really lovely because everybody can relate to feeling of
Speaker 1: rejection and awkwardness and insecurity prof I mean deep insecurity,
Speaker 1: Like it doesn't matter who you are, the level of
Speaker 1: insecurity you feel when you're in middle school is is
Speaker 1: essentially as deep as it's ever going to get. And
Speaker 1: and that, I don't know, it shapes who we are.
Speaker 1: It shapes how we how we see the world and
Speaker 1: what we think of it, and how we see ourselves
Speaker 1: and how we behave in all of our relationships. So
Speaker 1: I think if you, you know, if you tap into
Speaker 1: it the right way, you can get anywhere from something
Speaker 1: that is really really really funny and light to something
Speaker 1: that is frankly, really really intense. And we've kind of
Speaker 1: had all those stories. We've had stories of stories of
Speaker 1: a breakup that is so painfully awkward but superficial because
Speaker 1: they're like eleven two stories of someone losing their mother,
Speaker 1: you know, And I mean it literally is that spectrum.
Speaker 1: It's like it's like it's it and and it's all
Speaker 1: in these you know, stories that are written in from
Speaker 1: from people who listen to the show. And then of
Speaker 1: course that isn't those stories are not the heart of
Speaker 1: the show with everybody. All of our guests come on
Speaker 1: and tell, you know, various story from middle school and
Speaker 1: we just kind of go from there. But at the
Speaker 1: end of every every episode there's a there's a narrated
Speaker 1: story by me from one of our listeners, and you know,
Speaker 1: it's just it's like, as I said before, it's it's
Speaker 1: almost been like a way to process. I mean, I
Speaker 1: didn't finish middle school, you know. And the two people
Speaker 1: that I'm doing the show with their two teachers, so
Speaker 1: they didn't. They're not only finished middle school, they then
Speaker 1: went back to it as adults, so you know, more right,
Speaker 1: and so we're coming at it from a lot of
Speaker 1: angles in a way. Well, I have been really enjoying
Speaker 1: I've been catching up on episodes recently because spoiler alert
Speaker 1: there's gonna be a very special guest. How special, odd,
Speaker 1: really really special. I can only promise specialness. I'm I'm
Speaker 1: very much looking forward to that, Penn, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Thanks chatting. Yeah, man, thank you so much for having
Speaker 1: me on. Uh, congratulations on all the success of course,
Speaker 1: and on the new season of you. And just just
Speaker 1: know this, I will I will be watching you. We
Speaker 1: got a new Joe Goldberg right here. Thank you, Thank you,
Speaker 1: Thanks Ben Pen. Awesome time talking with you. You may
Speaker 1: be the second pen on this show, but you are
Speaker 1: absolutely tied for first place in my heart. Hi. I
Speaker 1: hope you're ready for a very special guest on your podcast.
Speaker 1: No no, no, my friend, you cannot keep me away.
Speaker 1: I am going to get pod crushed. For all you listeners,
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed today's episod owed as much as
Speaker 1: I did getting to No Pen. We've got a very
Speaker 1: special episode for you next week end of the year,
Speaker 1: coming round. We will see you that. Off the Beat
Speaker 1: is hosted an executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside
Speaker 1: our executive producer Langley. Our senior producer is Diego Tapia.
Speaker 1: Our producers are Liz Hayes, Hannah Harris and Emily Carr.
Speaker 1: Our talent producer is Ryan Papa Zachary and our intern
Speaker 1: is Sammy Cats. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed
Speaker 1: by the one and only Creed Bratton,