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Speaker 1: Did you view yourself as the outsider on the ship?

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Speaker 1: In life? On the show? On the show, did I

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Speaker 1: view Dan as the outsider? As Dan as the outsider?

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's who he's identified as. But to me,

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Speaker 1: the joke is always like, Bro, how much more on

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Speaker 1: the inside could you be? You're just not in the

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Speaker 1: deepest of the inner circle, but you're in the same school.

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Speaker 1: You're you're a you're a white boy, you know, you're

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Speaker 1: you know your dad was a rock star, and you

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Speaker 1: live in a three million dollar apartment rather than a

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Speaker 1: thirty million dollar mansions. So like, if you think you're

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Speaker 1: on the outside, Dan Humphrey, I'm sorry, but you have

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Speaker 1: a lot of learning to do. Hi. My name is

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Speaker 1: Penn Badgeley and I am you. Hi everybody. As always,

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, Brian bamb Gartner, and today we are

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Speaker 1: truly going off the beat. Thanks for joining me. Today's guest.

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Speaker 1: He's charming, he's thoughtful, he's incredible, likable, and he plays

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Speaker 1: a serial killer on TV. I'm talking, of course, about

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Speaker 1: the uber talented Penn Badgeley, a man who is as

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Speaker 1: much at home on his podcast talking about the awkward

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Speaker 1: middle school years as he is luring people to their

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Speaker 1: deaths on the hit show you talk about range. Pen

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Speaker 1: and I we have a lot in common. We're both actors,

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Speaker 1: we both love many of the same people, some of

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Speaker 1: whom co starred with him on Gossip Girl of course,

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Speaker 1: where he played Dan Humphrey. And we're both always watching. No,

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Speaker 1: not really, but seriously. I loved hearing about Penn's unique

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Speaker 1: journey growing up on television and now he's reflecting on

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Speaker 1: it over twenty years later with his podcast pod Crushed,

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Speaker 1: which coincidentally I'm a guest on this month as well.

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Speaker 1: Give that a listen if you want to hear about

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Speaker 1: my awkward junior high years. Can't wait for you to

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Speaker 1: hear this one. I won't make you wait any longer.

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Speaker 1: Here he is my new friend, Penn Badgeley, Bubble and Squeak.

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Speaker 1: I love it. Bubble and Squeak on Bubble and Squeaker

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Speaker 1: Cookie every month left over from the night before. Pen.

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Speaker 1: It's great to see you. Where are you? You're I'm

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Speaker 1: in New York City. You're in New York You're in

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Speaker 1: You're in a very official I podcast studio. It's branded

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Speaker 1: and everything it is well so this is it's it's

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Speaker 1: funny because the first year of producing and recording our podcast,

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Speaker 1: I was in a different super jan Kie environment every

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Speaker 1: for every interview. And actually, if you look at some

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Speaker 1: of the stuff we've put together on social media, when

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Speaker 1: we weren't even trying to be visual, but we just

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Speaker 1: had some zoom footage, I'm in a different place every time.

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Speaker 1: The lighting is terrible, Like I have facial here and

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Speaker 1: that's very unkempt, whereas now it's there, but it's kempt

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Speaker 1: and it's m Yeah. And so now I'm like getting

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Speaker 1: used to. I get on the train and I come

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Speaker 1: and it's like taking care of and we have our

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Speaker 1: engineer here, and we have our producer. It's like, it's yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's if this is podcasting, signed me up? This is it? Now.

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Speaker 1: I have to ask you, this is like such a lame, lame,

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Speaker 1: lame Hollywood question. Do we know each other? Did we

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Speaker 1: know from back in the day? But I don't think so,

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Speaker 1: you don't. But here's why it's easy to be somewhat certain.

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Speaker 1: I've lived in New York for the last fifteen years,

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Speaker 1: and I really don't run into people the same way.

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Speaker 1: We'll see. Here's the thing. I randomly became, which, of

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Speaker 1: course we'll talk about Gossip Girl in a little bit.

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Speaker 1: I randomly became friends slash friendly with virtually your entire

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Speaker 1: cast in New York City, really so like Ed and

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Speaker 1: Sebastian stand Chase and all sort of through Jeff z

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Speaker 1: or Ah. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's then you

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Speaker 1: know what it were you it would have been in

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Speaker 1: New York because I really haven't been to a much.

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Speaker 1: So if you were around when the show was still

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Speaker 1: on the air, when Gossip Girl was still going, then

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Speaker 1: I suppose it's possible, yes, but if neither of us

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Speaker 1: remember it, it probably wasn't. I think we can go

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Speaker 1: ahead and say, nice to meet you. Yeah, nice to

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Speaker 1: meet you. That sounds makes sense. Nice to meet you. Yes,

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Speaker 1: you know, Gossip Girls started shortly before the Office, and

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Speaker 1: you guys were so big and so hip, which was

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Speaker 1: the opposite of us at that time. I uh, when

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Speaker 1: you started, I mean you, well when for sure, when

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Speaker 1: we started, but also but even throughout you know, the

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Speaker 1: we weren't. We weren't like paparazzi stalked and like, we

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Speaker 1: weren't living that sort of well gossip girl type life.

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Speaker 1: I guess you're just creating the most watched television show

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Speaker 1: I think in history. Is that? Now? What the office is?

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Speaker 1: The U S Office. It's it for sure. Now I

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Speaker 1: don't know, maybe maybe I love Lucy or something. It's

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Speaker 1: still okay, it's still bigger. But um yeah. So so

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Speaker 1: I had some crazy like New York experiences like oh,

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Speaker 1: this is the back door of a place, like I

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Speaker 1: wasn't used to that. Yes, I still don't know how

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Speaker 1: to get in the front door. I've actually talked my

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Speaker 1: way into the front door of a club once, exactly

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Speaker 1: once in my life, in the first season of Gossip Girl,

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Speaker 1: the first and last time I ever did it. I

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Speaker 1: still don't know how to wield that hammer, and and

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Speaker 1: it's it's comical. But you know, if a back door

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Speaker 1: is open to me and I'm being ushered through it,

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Speaker 1: sure thing. Yeah, it's easy. Yeah, all right, Well I

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Speaker 1: want to start back before that. You're a You're a

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Speaker 1: difficult guy to pin down in terms of the question

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Speaker 1: where are you from. It sounds like you were born

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Speaker 1: in Maryland and then going to move to Virginia at

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Speaker 1: two years old. Packed up my bags. Yeah, then I

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Speaker 1: was also in Washington State. By the time I was

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Speaker 1: I think eight or nine. And then I was in

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Speaker 1: l A, l A, pursuing a career as an actor

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Speaker 1: at the right old age of twelve, and about time

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Speaker 1: I was twenty, I was in New York City. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so you you went, you went the opposite way. You're

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Speaker 1: one of the very very few who moved from l

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Speaker 1: A to New York. That doesn't usually happened. No, I

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Speaker 1: mean I was really lucky in a number of ways

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Speaker 1: when Gossip Girl came along, even though even though it

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Speaker 1: was something that I have spoken a lot about, how like,

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Speaker 1: you know, sort of in the beginning, I wasn't sure

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Speaker 1: it seems to be the way I signed on to

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Speaker 1: things because it was the same with my show You Now.

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Speaker 1: But I yeah, I mean one of the great gifts

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Speaker 1: that brought was living in New York City. Truly, I

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Speaker 1: cannot well, any other life is a fantasy, but I

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Speaker 1: can't imagine not having been in New York in my twenties.

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Speaker 1: And it's very intense, by the way, like the city

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Speaker 1: is exhausting, so that fifteen sixteen years later, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: you know, having to process what that was. But but man, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's an incredible place to be. Where would you say,

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Speaker 1: what place influenced you the most before you're your move

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Speaker 1: to New York. It sounds like you were in in

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Speaker 1: in Washington State for quite a while. Yeah, every everywhere

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Speaker 1: was a different kind of influence, each one of them

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Speaker 1: pretty deep. I think the one that resonates the most

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Speaker 1: is Washington State because at that age I was just

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Speaker 1: nine to twelves and those are such formative years. And

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Speaker 1: then by the time I was in l A. You know,

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Speaker 1: those are formative years as well. But then, of course,

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Speaker 1: like any like any teenager, I became to disdain the

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Speaker 1: place that I lived. And I think, um, being a

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Speaker 1: an actor, you of course, you know, the relationship you

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Speaker 1: developed with l A is different then if you do

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Speaker 1: something else right, you know, And so I think by

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Speaker 1: the time I was twenty, I really wanted to get out.

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Speaker 1: I always wanted to live in in New York, and

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Speaker 1: so then the opportunity came, and so yeah, I'd say

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Speaker 1: Washington State, that place is the place that feels like

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Speaker 1: my home before it all kind of started. Before it started. Um,

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Speaker 1: were you named after a tennis ball brand? I was. Indeed,

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Speaker 1: Now that doesn't really mean anything because there was no

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Speaker 1: attachment to the brand. My parents were not that's not

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Speaker 1: even that's it's tennis players. Well, my dad was a

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Speaker 1: tennis player, but not you know, I mean, it's like

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Speaker 1: it was more of a happenstance where he was he

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Speaker 1: was bouncing gripping a pen tennis ball just sort of

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Speaker 1: like because it was there and it was a stress thing.

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Speaker 1: And my mom said, uh, oh, he's about the size

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Speaker 1: of that tennis ball. Right now, I think they've just

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Speaker 1: gotten the first sonogram. I don't know if a story is.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if they were actually in the hospital

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Speaker 1: at a time or if what what it was. But

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Speaker 1: but then and then he just looked at the ball

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Speaker 1: and then in that moment they knew pen. That's that's

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Speaker 1: the Yeah, fascinating. Do you think that that that bouncinus

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Speaker 1: influenced anything later on? Back and forth? Uh, that's interesting.

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Speaker 1: I've never thought of that. And my relationship with tennis

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Speaker 1: is I really like to watch it, but I've never

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Speaker 1: been a tennis person. I don't it doesn't. Here's where

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Speaker 1: the name means something to me is that I kind

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Speaker 1: of I went through this phase where I got into them.

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Speaker 1: The etymology of the word pen like a like a

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Speaker 1: like a writing pen, even though that's technically not I mean,

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Speaker 1: it has an extra end, so I don't know if

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Speaker 1: that just makes it a name or whatever. But like

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Speaker 1: the idea that a pen point is like, it's like this,

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Speaker 1: like I don't know the point where things come to

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Speaker 1: a head. It's it kind of used to mean like

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Speaker 1: a general. I think in Germanic. It's sort of like

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Speaker 1: the root of the word used for a general. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of I don't know, interesting esoteric stuff. But

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Speaker 1: now the name, the name, doesn't I like it because

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Speaker 1: it's unique. Yes, I rarely ever see the name or

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Speaker 1: hear the name in any of the reference than to me,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So that's kind of interesting,

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Speaker 1: Like you know, people who have a name, like it's

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Speaker 1: more common, they're accustomed to meeting people with their name.

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Speaker 1: I I have only met one other person named pen

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Speaker 1: And incidentally, my mother's neighbor for a very brief period.

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Speaker 1: My mother lived in Colorado, and she actually when she

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Speaker 1: first moved in to this suburban street in Colorado. This

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Speaker 1: is like I don't want to say, six seven, eight

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Speaker 1: years ago, she uh had somebody left cookies on her

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Speaker 1: front door and it said, you know, nice to meet

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Speaker 1: your neighbor signed pen and my mom. The way she

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Speaker 1: describes it, she literally was like what and like she

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Speaker 1: didn't see who it was. She was just so she

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Speaker 1: was having like a brain glitch, like a matrix moment,

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Speaker 1: you know, like what do you mean That's not possible.

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Speaker 1: And it turns out the woman who lived next door,

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Speaker 1: she was like in her forties. I think she had

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Speaker 1: like two kids. She was from. Her heritage is a

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Speaker 1: West Indies, so she's black, and so it's it's it's

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Speaker 1: an interesting funny story that the only other woman me

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Speaker 1: or my family has ever met was an older black

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Speaker 1: woman who lived next right to my mom. You know

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Speaker 1: that's kind of I like that the name has that spectrum. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it does, you know, it does. It transverses the world. Now,

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Speaker 1: I have to tell you, in the weirdest coincidence ever,

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Speaker 1: I have only met one other pen And Gilette to

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Speaker 1: him on this podcast, very very recently, and I will

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Speaker 1: tell you, well, you have you have a lot to

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Speaker 1: live up to. He was, he's fascinating. Yeah, he's pretty

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Speaker 1: incredibly smart and intuitive, and he immediately invited me, well

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Speaker 1: not immediately, but at the end of our conversation invited

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Speaker 1: me to a show of his in Vegas and I

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Speaker 1: have never been. And after the conversation, I was like, anytime,

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Speaker 1: and I will just fly there to come and hang

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Speaker 1: out with you. And that actually makes me feel like

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Speaker 1: I've never felt this way about like another quote unquote celebrity.

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Speaker 1: That's sort of I don't operate like that. But that

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Speaker 1: just made me realize like he is the only other

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Speaker 1: famous pen I'm aware of. He uh, and he's a

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Speaker 1: profound dude. He's like he's their act Penn and Teller

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Speaker 1: is is I think brilliant. I mean I've never really

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Speaker 1: dug into it, but I I've never seen it live.

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Speaker 1: But you're making me feel like somehow I really want

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Speaker 1: to reach out to him, and just because he is

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Speaker 1: so smart, you need to and it'll Pen and Pen. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Pen and Pen, that's an episode we gotta get him

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Speaker 1: for our podcast. Yeah, Pen and Pen, you just give

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Speaker 1: me credit just in the in the bottom corner. Definitely,

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Speaker 1: You're not gonna get any points or anything but points. Points. Points. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: It's just I've never had points in anything yet. Points

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Speaker 1: are what you get when something is not worth anything, right, right,

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Speaker 1: right right. However, However, if you get in I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, on a show like yours or if it's well,

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Speaker 1: I know, I'm not saying that you guys did it.

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Speaker 1: I'm just saying like, there is that rare like Keianna

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Speaker 1: Reeves famously got him, he didn't he like rather than

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Speaker 1: getting paid a lot for the matrix, he got some points.

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Speaker 1: Well those are good points to have, Yeah, exactly if

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Speaker 1: you can stumble onto something that is going to turn

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Speaker 1: the giant. Yes, Um, when did you start becoming interested

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Speaker 1: in acting? Now? I understand you did some stuff for

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Speaker 1: Seattle Children's Theater, so this is young. But was this

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Speaker 1: a hobby or was this something you were really interested

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Speaker 1: in pursuing? I mean both it it went from a hobby.

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Speaker 1: My first creative passion is music that was kind of

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Speaker 1: from birth pretty evidently, which with my toddler actually seems

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Speaker 1: to be the same case. Really really his love music

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Speaker 1: from the get go and has a very specific kind

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Speaker 1: of taste. So yeah, singing performing in that way was

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Speaker 1: like something that I think my heart desired. But the

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Speaker 1: way it became acting I can't really recall, except that

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Speaker 1: there were some school players pretty young and then and

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Speaker 1: but then really what did it was that I was

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Speaker 1: clearly a very creative person. Actually, the thing I spent

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Speaker 1: the most time doing was drawing. I would draw and

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Speaker 1: listen to music and I didn't sing that much that

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Speaker 1: at that point. But but then when we moved to

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Speaker 1: Washington State, we lived in the middle of nowhere, and

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Speaker 1: I needed a social outlet because it was just the

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Speaker 1: beginning of summer. I had no school, nothing like that,

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Speaker 1: and my mom and I would drive to this, uh,

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Speaker 1: this theater house. It was like few miles away in

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Speaker 1: a town called Monroe. And that was when I fell

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Speaker 1: in love with the practice. A crew of cast, you know,

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Speaker 1: like there's sometimes nothing better. It's like this communal experience.

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Speaker 1: You get to meet so many different kinds of people,

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Speaker 1: especially when you're that age. You know most kids are.

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Speaker 1: Most kids are surrounded by kids only their age, which

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Speaker 1: is a construct of school you think about, it's not

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Speaker 1: totally natural what I love. I loved being around just

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Speaker 1: adults and all different kinds of people, creative people. I

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Speaker 1: just I really loved it. And then I saw Seattle

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Speaker 1: as this like um because I didn't live in Seattle,

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Speaker 1: and when I would go into Seattle later when I

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Speaker 1: was doing plays in the city, I just felt some

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Speaker 1: Metropolitan would go to the museum and stuff. I just

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Speaker 1: it just felt like like the arts with this access

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Speaker 1: to the world, you know, And and so I didn't

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Speaker 1: just love acting. I loved the entire thing. You know,

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Speaker 1: it just was like magical. It just it was it

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Speaker 1: was lovely and so I really pretty and I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I mean it just that couldn't have matter been doing

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Speaker 1: anything else. You bring up something I've never thought about before.

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Speaker 1: But it's so true. I mean, if you think about

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Speaker 1: school and you think about sports, even at a young

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Speaker 1: age to right, I mean, you're you're it's like you're

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Speaker 1: playing with nine and ten year olds or eleven, you know,

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Speaker 1: in on teams. But theater specifically is one place where

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Speaker 1: you have the opportunity to be around and in a

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Speaker 1: way be on the same team with a variety of

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Speaker 1: ages and types and sexes and everything. That is that

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Speaker 1: that's so valuable, I would is no. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: actually think it's a more natural way for people to

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Speaker 1: grow up because you think about schools, schools haven't existed

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Speaker 1: that long, Like we're normally the world is mixed age,

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Speaker 1: Like you know, you're going to be in the world.

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Speaker 1: So in the way I grew up like in the world,

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Speaker 1: and I think, you look, I mean, it has it's

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Speaker 1: it has its taxes and as its cost. But but

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Speaker 1: there's something about that that I always loved. I really

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Speaker 1: always loved and I and I and I stopped going

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Speaker 1: to school in a traditional sense pretty early on, so

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Speaker 1: you know, yeah, I've I've come to appreciate it. Did

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Speaker 1: you graduate high school at age thirteen? Technically, what I

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Speaker 1: did was took the California High School State Proficiency Exams,

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Speaker 1: So that's now referred to as the CHEST because it's

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Speaker 1: a bit more popular for kids who were seeking to Basically,

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Speaker 1: what it does is it allows you to work without

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Speaker 1: a tutor on set and without the constraints of like

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Speaker 1: the eight and a half hours or whatever that is.

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Speaker 1: So like I could work for twelve hours and I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have to have a tutor. And you know, if

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Speaker 1: you're an autodidact, if you like learning, that's not a

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Speaker 1: bad thing at all, because the set tutor is a

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Speaker 1: little bit of a I didn't five with it, and

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Speaker 1: and I'm again like, I'm not recommending it for all people,

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Speaker 1: but the way that it worked for me was that

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Speaker 1: it is that it worked fascinating. So like basically the

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Speaker 1: equivalent of a G E D or something the exact

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Speaker 1: same thing. It's just a G E D I think

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Speaker 1: is a national thing with this is just in the

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Speaker 1: state of California. So what I did was I started

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Speaker 1: going to Santa Monica College. I don't know if you've

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Speaker 1: ever been there, but it's a really cool kind of

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Speaker 1: like cultural hub too. Yes, there was another example of

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Speaker 1: how this profession sort of kept opening up the world

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Speaker 1: to me. You know, I was taking sociology at a

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Speaker 1: college level when I was like fourteen, and I loved that.

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Speaker 1: I loved that. I took photography, you know, and I

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Speaker 1: was taking drawing and I was drawing models, you know,

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Speaker 1: and stuff. It was just loved it. I really really

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Speaker 1: loved it. Well, again, this makes a ton of sense.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you're someone who is interested in the

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Speaker 1: world and wanting to be educated, but not wanting to

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Speaker 1: be because you're because you're working, because you're pursuing something

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Speaker 1: you love, not wanting to be held with those constraints

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Speaker 1: that are sort of artificial, but being able to actually

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Speaker 1: begin focusing and expanding your knowledge with things that you're

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Speaker 1: interested in, that make a ton of sense. I've actually

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Speaker 1: never heard of that. Never maybe I haven't been around

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Speaker 1: smart kids. I didn't. I never occurred to me that,

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Speaker 1: oh well if you if you place out, you you

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Speaker 1: don't have to be under those same rules or do

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Speaker 1: the set school or whatever. Yeah, well, I mean and

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Speaker 1: to be to be again to kind of underscore like

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Speaker 1: I didn't, I didn't test out of high school in

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Speaker 1: in that way that you would think of. What really

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Speaker 1: started happening was that, like this other way of of

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Speaker 1: being able to make things work and have a sort

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Speaker 1: of a career and occupation started to present itself very early,

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Speaker 1: so that it seemed like a safe enough gamble to

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Speaker 1: be like, you know what, what do people go to

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Speaker 1: school for? What do you do it for? They do

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Speaker 1: it to set them up, right, I mean, you don't

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Speaker 1: like unfortunately people don't really go there to learn. You

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Speaker 1: do it because you basically have to. If you don't

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Speaker 1: go to school, your child services will be called in

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Speaker 1: your parents at something. Right, So you know it's like,

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Speaker 1: but that's again, this is kind of a construct like

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Speaker 1: and so and again. And you know, I don't believe

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Speaker 1: in children should not all go to Hollywood. It's the

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Speaker 1: last place really they should be, you know. So it's

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Speaker 1: like it does not work for everybody, but I managed

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Speaker 1: to cut a path that that again, it came with

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Speaker 1: some costs, but ultimately, like was this really rich sort

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Speaker 1: of exposure to culture and a different kind of education

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Speaker 1: that you know, I never lost the love for learning, actually,

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Speaker 1: And that's interesting because a lot of people get to

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Speaker 1: college and they're just exhausted by the academic experience. I personally,

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Speaker 1: you know, I read more than most people I know,

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Speaker 1: and I think one of these one of the reasons

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Speaker 1: is is this right, I just love to absorb. You know,

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Speaker 1: you went to Los Angeles then, specifically at that point

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Speaker 1: fourteen to pursue a career. Yeah, yeah, the cliff notes

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Speaker 1: are yes. The longer answer is, no one at thirteen,

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Speaker 1: No one as a child is going with a parent

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Speaker 1: to l a to pursue a career without some aspect

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Speaker 1: of the family being like people needing to get away

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Speaker 1: from each other, parents getting divorced, that sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: So it's you know, it's always I mean, if you

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Speaker 1: look at Hollywood as it like a control experiment or something,

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Speaker 1: you know, you know that child actors are coming from

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Speaker 1: often a lot of a lot of stuff and and

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Speaker 1: so and so that was a part of it. But

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Speaker 1: I did have the genuine desire to act, to pursue

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Speaker 1: a life as a creative person, as an artist. And

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Speaker 1: I'm not even saying that that's what I achieved, but

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Speaker 1: that is what brought me there. And you know, and

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Speaker 1: then I started working right off the bat, uh in

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Speaker 1: in television and I virtually have not stopped since. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you had a number of recurring roles early on Young

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Speaker 1: and the Restless, which, by the way, in terms of

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Speaker 1: an education doing a soap opera, learning quickly how to

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Speaker 1: be on set and how to be efficient and work,

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Speaker 1: that's a great education, right, Yeah, I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: I did it briefly enough that I think, Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: was just it kept me working. It kept me like

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Speaker 1: if like I didn't study a lot, and as an actor,

396
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Speaker 1: I was just sort of living by doing or sorry,

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Speaker 1: learning by doing. And um, it was just it all

398
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Speaker 1: was training, it all, you know, all those sort of

399
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Speaker 1: recurring roles. I remember being very very nervous every time

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Speaker 1: I went to Younger than Restless because it was right

401
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Speaker 1: next to the Prices right studio, Okay, and that just

402
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Speaker 1: is an iconic kinda I mean, young people now don't

403
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Speaker 1: probably don't even know what that it is, but like,

404
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 1: you know, it just was in the days of network

405
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,520
Speaker 1: television being the only way you consume anything and it

406
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Speaker 1: being like a pillar of everybody's sort of life. You know,

407
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Speaker 1: television news there to raise me and you know, the

408
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Speaker 1: Price is Right is there to keep me company and

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean, like so the Price is

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Speaker 1: Right being a living, real thing right next to where

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Speaker 1: we shot and everything, as you said, it moves fast,

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Speaker 1: so like as a kid. Oh man, Actually, I haven't

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Speaker 1: thought about this in a long time, but I was

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Speaker 1: always so nervous going to work there because it just

415
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Speaker 1: seemed huge. It was the CBS studios, you know, CBS

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Speaker 1: Radford just this like giant kind of old Hollywood vibe everybody. Yeah,

417
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Speaker 1: it's yeah. I'm always fascinated with people who get into

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Speaker 1: the business. And I hate the phrase to business, but

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Speaker 1: I just used it early. Do you feel like you

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Speaker 1: had a normal childhood? No? No, no, no, no not

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Speaker 1: at all. No. I mean, in fact, part of what

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Speaker 1: I even started my podcast for, which is like it's

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Speaker 1: called podcrushed. It's this is not a plug, it's just

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Speaker 1: the truth. Um. We were exploring middle school partly. And

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Speaker 1: my two co hosts have their own middle school experiences,

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00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 1: their own life experiences. Actually their teachers, they were teachers

427
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,360
Speaker 1: before they left at all the come stars. No, that's

428
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 1: not what they're doing. But um, but I yeah, I

429
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 1: mean I'm kind of openly processing what it was to

430
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 1: have a late childhood and an adolescence and teen years

431
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 1: and even early and even my twenties in in in

432
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 1: this this business, you know, and and under the public

433
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,719
Speaker 1: eye more and more, and it's not normal yet it's not.

434
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 1: I It's like, I, you know, just face value. It's like,

435
00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 1: wouldn't recommend it. It's like, if you go that route,

436
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 1: be ready for soon. Some life brings us all challenges.

437
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 1: I would say this, this kind of challenge is is

438
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,880
Speaker 1: extreme and it's unique, and there's no there's no clear

439
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 1: reason anybody should subject themselves to it. That's what I

440
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 1: would say, except except that you loved it. Well yeah,

441
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 1: and so that's yeah, yeah, that's true. I mean, look, yes, um,

442
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 1: but you know, I love the whole thing, and my

443
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 1: pure love of the craft ultimately is what's carried me through.

444
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: But so much of it I don't feel as though

445
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 1: I've spent like refining the very participating in the art

446
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: and refining the craft in its purest sense, so that like,

447
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 1: you know, I don't feel as I've been living my

448
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: life as like a working artist. That's not really what

449
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 1: it feels like. It feels like I got into this

450
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 1: business and it's very much a business, and then I

451
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 1: spent a really long time doing like succeeding in the

452
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 1: business as a player in it. And then I think,

453
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 1: only now, after all this time, do I start to

454
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 1: real they feel as though I can take some control

455
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: of that and and and reclaim this feeling of being

456
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 1: an artist, to be honest. Yeah, again, it's always interesting

457
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 1: to me when I talked to someone who started so young,

458
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 1: because I didn't quite frankly, and even talking about you know,

459
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 1: being involved in theater and you know, having a variety,

460
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: you know, being around people of different age. That really

461
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 1: wasn't my experience because you know, I was essentially early

462
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 1: on doing school play, so it was all my age essentially,

463
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 1: So you know, I was even then playing the sixty

464
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,120
Speaker 1: year old may On or whatever. But you know the

465
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:47,200
Speaker 1: next next next to my friend was playing the young

466
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 1: lover or whatever. Um, so yeah, you know, it was

467
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: just it was just very and it wasn't until after,

468
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,120
Speaker 1: you know, after I got out of school that that

469
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,919
Speaker 1: that really started for me. But I I just I

470
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 1: find it so interesting in it it makes sense that

471
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 1: at such a young age you would feel sort of

472
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 1: out of control and trying to find your way and

473
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 1: make your way and not being able to sort of

474
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,400
Speaker 1: guide yourself down, you know as you as you say,

475
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 1: an artist path, but really just trying to survive. And

476
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 1: then you know, in your case, succeed in the business

477
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 1: the business of acting. Yeah, which by the way, is

478
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: a statistical anomaly. Success in the business is actually the

479
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,199
Speaker 1: exception that proves the rule that you will fail. I

480
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: mean not to sound like what I mean is that

481
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: anyone you succeed succeeding is actually the anomaly. The business

482
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,360
Speaker 1: is not one that offers any kind of like merit

483
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:54,159
Speaker 1: based metric. It's not. It's like it is. It is

484
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 1: you see someone doing what you want to do. Guess

485
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 1: what if it's a numbers thing that they're doing, it

486
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 1: means that you can't, that you won't. I'm not based

487
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 1: on your worth, not based on fairness. This is not just,

488
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: but it is the way that it is, like the

489
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: percentage of people who succeed versus the percent of people

490
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 1: who fail is so disproportionate. Son even succeeding in all

491
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,360
Speaker 1: of it is like, wow, what is what is? It's gets,

492
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a it's a crazy thing that we do.

493
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 1: You uh, nineteen twenty years old, you already have a

494
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: ton of credits under your belt. I was ready. I'm

495
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: not kidding. I was ready to hang it up before

496
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: I took Crossip Girl. I've been doing television for so long. Really,

497
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: it was already so disillusioned with the process. I had

498
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: done so many shows, series leads, series that at all

499
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:43,719
Speaker 1: gone to series, not just pilots that had then failed

500
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 1: and been canceled. We try to get that back nine,

501
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? You know the first season

502
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 1: in the office, you know, you know, how is it

503
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 1: a struggle a compatas to get a show to make it?

504
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: And I was just like, you know, I can't do

505
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 1: TV anymore. I just can't. And that's why when Crossip

506
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 1: Grow came along, I initially did say no, but anyway, sorry,

507
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 1: you can know so you you so no, So you

508
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 1: you have the opportunity for Gossip Girl comes and you

509
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: say no, Yeah, I mean so so the so the

510
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 1: co creator, Stephanie Savage, she actually asked me. She emailed

511
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 1: me the script and she said, you know, I feel

512
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: like you will have already she her words in my

513
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 1: memory are I think that you will feel like you've

514
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 1: already done this, which is play the flappy haired, awkward kid. Okay,

515
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 1: because that's what I had done on the show we'd

516
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 1: worked together on like two or three years previous. When

517
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: I was seventeen years old. I lived in Vancouver for

518
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 1: the best six months on a show called The Mountain

519
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 1: where I was playing this young professional snowboarder and a

520
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: show that was basically like the pitch was. It was

521
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: Dynasty on a Mountain, Okay, and she co created that

522
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 1: show with mcg at the time was huge with the

523
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: OC and all this stuff. So then she and Josh

524
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: Schwartz got together to to make Gossip Girl, and um,

525
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: she emails me the concept the script and was like,

526
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: I would really love you to look at it, Dan,

527
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: even though I feel like you you'll probably not want

528
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: to do it. And I read it and I said

529
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: thank you, and you're right, you know, thank you for

530
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 1: thinking of me, but respectfully like, yeah, this is just

531
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: not what I'm interested in doing right now, and the

532
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,959
Speaker 1: opportunity went away and they cast everybody else. I couldn't

533
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: find who they thought was Dan. Um. She comes back

534
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 1: and sort of gives me a little bit of a

535
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 1: a plea, I mean plea maybe sounds not. It wasn't

536
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: like desperate, it was more like it. She she pitched

537
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: me on the idea that I was Dan and Um,

538
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 1: I ultimately was sold on it and and said, yes,

539
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 1: why what made you change your mind? Um? Honestly something

540
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 1: that did not even pan out, like I don't feel

541
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: like she was she she meant what she said, but

542
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: what she said was that she was interested in the

543
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: fact that he was like the sort of moral center

544
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 1: of the show, like a sort of male lead of

545
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: the show I think at its outset. And she was

546
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 1: sort of pitching me on like this idea that three

547
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 1: years prior I had done our show where I started

548
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 1: out in a in a recurring role, and then that

549
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 1: role became slowly kind of the heart of how she

550
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 1: saw the show that I was in every episode I

551
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 1: think in the end and by the end, I was

552
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 1: like a really a main character, and she was like,

553
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 1: you know, think about that's that was the ark with

554
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: your last guy, you know, And I've done another series

555
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 1: of Warner Brothers since then. And actually he was in college,

556
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 1: so I was taking a step back into high school.

557
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: And at twenty years old, I was like, high school?

558
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,959
Speaker 1: Are you kidding me? Like I'm like, like my sideburns

559
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: are down to my jaw. I don't, I don't, I'm not.

560
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: I'm not, like you know all I've never even been

561
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 1: to high school. And I honestly was just I just

562
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: so wanted to play other things and other people and

563
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: and and other ideas. But she kind of had this idea.

564
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:51,719
Speaker 1: She was like, you know, this time, you'll be starting

565
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,719
Speaker 1: out as a sort of heart of the show, and

566
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 1: you know, just think of where it can go from

567
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: there and and what's interesting about class of Girl. And

568
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 1: I say this as a witness, not as like a

569
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 1: I think I took it personally initially, and I am

570
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: I complained as a young and but what I see

571
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 1: it now and just just purely with detachment and like

572
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 1: you know, distance and time. The whole point at Gossip

573
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 1: Girl was that Dan was not meant to He was

574
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 1: not the heart. Like the show wasn't so concerned with

575
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: having a heart. It was concerned with this aspirational as

576
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 1: we say, this sort of fantasy of of the of

577
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: the elite, you know, of the of the glamorous, of

578
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 1: which basically doesn't exist, you know, but but yeah, it's

579
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 1: this like fantasy life of youth. And and actually, in

580
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 1: Chuck and Blair, who I think very quickly became the

581
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 1: clear heart or hearts of the show, or the bivalve

582
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: heart of the show, the whole point was that they

583
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: were not moral. The whole point was that they were.

584
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: They weren't immoral, but they were a moral They were

585
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 1: sort of like, they did what served them. And at

586
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 1: the end of the day, because they were portrayed by

587
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: two talented actors, those characters had such depth and such

588
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: range because actually, when you play people who are who

589
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: are not sure about what's right, you ultimately get a

590
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: more compelling story. And I mean that's why, you know,

591
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: years later, I'm playing a serial killer and people haven't

592
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 1: ever responded more positively, you know. And I think it's

593
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: a sign of like the sort of stories that we're

594
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: interested in, in in what we get from stories. It's actually

595
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: very hard to tell a story about a moral center.

596
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 1: It's it's I'm not saying that it's not a good story.

597
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's not worth trying, but I'm saying

598
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 1: that it's Currently we live in an age where it's

599
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 1: it's more compelling off the bat to tell a story

600
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: about a bad person who's trying, who's trying, because I

601
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: think we can identify more readily with that visceral level

602
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 1: of struggle. And people also don't want to be told

603
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 1: what's yeah, exactly, what is right? Yeah, Actually that's never

604
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 1: worked with anybody, so any right, yeah, then it becomes

605
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: preaching well exactly. And I think in sense, Dan coupled

606
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: with the way that I unconsciously played him, became righteous

607
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,399
Speaker 1: and annoying, you know. And and that's and that makes

608
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 1: sense at least, I'll say this. I think true stands

609
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 1: of Gossip Girl usually seem to align with the Chuck

610
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 1: and Blair kind of like thing. And that's that. I

611
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 1: do think it's really seems to me, like I remember

612
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 1: when it happened the first season was episode six. They

613
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 1: were the kind of unexpected relationship that then just worked

614
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 1: and then it became the heart of the show really

615
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 1: and and I think that no one anticipated that, but

616
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 1: it was a sign of the times. It was like, ah,

617
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 1: and a sign of what you just said, which is like,

618
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 1: you can't start out with somebody who's who's like always

619
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 1: right or something or who and who always thinks that

620
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 1: they're good and then just complains about how no one

621
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 1: else is as good as them. That's not that's not

622
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 1: as interesting, it's not and it's not it's actually not

623
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 1: humble in the end, did you view yourself as the

624
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 1: outsider on the ship? In life? On the show? On

625
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: the show, did I view Dan as the outsider? As

626
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,919
Speaker 1: Dan as the outsider? I mean, that's who he's identified as.

627
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,359
Speaker 1: But to me, the joke is always like, bro, how

628
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 1: much more on the inside could you be? You're just

629
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 1: not in the deepest of the inner circle. But you're

630
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 1: in the same school. You're you're a you're a white boy.

631
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 1: You know, you're you know, your dad was a rock star,

632
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 1: and you live in a three million dollar apartment rather

633
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 1: than a thirty million dollar mansion. So like, if you

634
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 1: think you're on the outside, Dan Humphrey, I'm sorry, but

635
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,839
Speaker 1: you have a lot of learning to do. You just

636
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 1: aren't literally inside the inside of the inside. You're just

637
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,839
Speaker 1: on the outspirit of the inside, you know. So Uh,

638
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: when did you find out that that he's got the

639
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,879
Speaker 1: Gossip Girl? I think right like just the day before

640
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 1: we started shooting in that final episode I believe now

641
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: at the beginning of that season, the producers did tell

642
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 1: me they kind of cryptically like Dan is going to

643
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 1: assume more power this season, so I just get ready

644
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: and and you know, in a typically seasons or twenty

645
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,919
Speaker 1: six episodes, but we that's season only did a half

646
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 1: order like of ten or something like that. So I

647
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:05,839
Speaker 1: remember thinking like, wells, you have to get there pretty

648
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 1: soon or um, yeah, And but I didn't know what

649
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 1: that meant. And I didn't even think that it was

650
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,760
Speaker 1: about being gossip Girl at all, like not even remotely,

651
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 1: because you know, if you try to break it down logically,

652
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 1: it's you know, it doesn't really make sense for anybody

653
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,280
Speaker 1: to have been Gossip Girl other than de Rota or

654
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: some other more peripheral character. M hm. I mean this

655
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 1: marks the first time that you work on a really

656
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 1: long running show with the same group of people, largely

657
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:40,839
Speaker 1: the same cast. How how is that? How was that

658
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 1: different for you one playing that character um being able

659
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:49,280
Speaker 1: to play through multiple arcs over several seasons, but also

660
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 1: play alongside your cast mates for for that long. You know,

661
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: it's a lot of things. I mean, the first things

662
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,280
Speaker 1: that come to mind are totally like sensory and mo stional,

663
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 1: like man, it was just those superformative years of being

664
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: in your early and mid twenties and youth. How was it,

665
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: you know, the arcs, the character, the cast. I feel

666
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 1: like for me, I was never as invested in the

667
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 1: story as I was in the experience. I was never

668
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 1: as invested in the show as I was in like

669
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 1: the set, like the like the cast and crew I was.

670
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 1: I was never as invested in Dan as I was

671
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 1: in having new experiences as an actor, and so unfortunately,

672
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 1: I think what that meant as a as a as

673
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 1: a as a young and hungry professional, I constantly felt

674
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 1: the limitations of the show and the role, which is

675
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 1: not right. You know, it's like it's but it is.

676
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 1: It is I think common for such a for for

677
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: for young people thrust into that position. But what I

678
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 1: do think, I mean, you know, I had, of course

679
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,839
Speaker 1: the first couple of years, had had a relationship with

680
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 1: Blake Lively, and that that that was its own bubble

681
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 1: experience of portraying Dan and Serena and being together, and

682
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 1: that was really, when you break it down, that's actually

683
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 1: a very surreal experience. Another one I would not necessarily

684
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: recommend to others, but if you somehow find yourself there,

685
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 1: go ahead and journal because it's weird, of course, which

686
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,840
Speaker 1: I'll you know, always be grateful for those experiences, really

687
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:28,800
Speaker 1: really lovely things ultimately went out in memory. But but weird,

688
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's it's a it's an intensive way

689
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 1: to do things. And yeah, I don't even know what

690
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 1: I think about the character because to me, it's very

691
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:42,760
Speaker 1: that that show was so intimately connected to our personal

692
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: lives in the tabloids. I gotta honestly say, like, and

693
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:50,800
Speaker 1: I'm saying this again as a witness, this is not

694
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 1: in the realm of complaint. I really see it as

695
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 1: like we were too young to really understand what's going on.

696
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 1: It was too much of a frothy pop gossip an

697
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,280
Speaker 1: engine on its own, you know. And I just feel

698
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 1: like it was very hard to separate life from from fiction.

699
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 1: And yes, and I personally didn't like that. I actually

700
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 1: didn't want more of that. I can't. I don't know

701
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,800
Speaker 1: how you guys did it. Now, I joked with jess

702
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 1: Or about this, and I was not going to say

703
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 1: this to you because I didn't know what your experience

704
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 1: was or what you know. Look, I don't follow the tabloids,

705
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 1: so I don't. To me, it doesn't matter what the

706
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: machinations or what the pairings were. But all I know

707
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 1: is every time I would run into those guys, which

708
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 1: I would run into jess Or Chase or Sebastian or

709
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 1: Ed as I mentioned at various times throughout the year,

710
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 1: but months would go by because I was in l

711
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 1: A and you guys were in New York. I couldn't

712
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 1: I couldn't keep it straight. I couldn't keep it straight

713
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 1: who was with who because I felt like one summer

714
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:05,320
Speaker 1: two of you guys would be together, and by Christmas

715
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: time that wasn't happening anymore. But everybody was still cool

716
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 1: with each other and going out together. Yeah, I mean,

717
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 1: but now you were with someone else and it was

718
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,439
Speaker 1: playing out differently on the show, so that was confusing.

719
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 1: I don't know how you did it. I don't know

720
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:22,759
Speaker 1: how you how you lived through it. I truly don't. Again,

721
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 1: I don't recommend it to anybody, but if you find

722
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 1: yourself in the position, journal my friend, you journal like

723
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 1: you have never journal before. It'll be really interesting later on,

724
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 1: and you're gonna need to process it with your therapist.

725
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 1: So it's just a short cut, a short cut. You

726
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 1: You you cling to that journal, young gossip girl. You

727
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 1: cling onto it like your sanity depends on it. Um.

728
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:48,280
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny as that I didn't journal throughout

729
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 1: those years, and which is why I'm saying is but um, yeah, man,

730
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 1: look I mean it. It is a it is a

731
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 1: completely constructed thing. It's not normal to to to put

732
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:03,280
Speaker 1: we're portraying people younger than we are who live relationships

733
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 1: as though they're forty year old billionaires, right, you know,

734
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:12,839
Speaker 1: the sort of the level of emotional nuance and like

735
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 1: sexual experience that all these teenagers are meant to be demonstrating,

736
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 1: it literally is more like the it's more like the

737
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:23,880
Speaker 1: love lives of a theater company in Paris in like

738
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty. Like, it's not the way that teenagers live,

739
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 1: and not even most adults in America live. Um, but

740
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 1: then you know you you so, so we're they're kind

741
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 1: of bringing that thing to life. And then but then

742
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 1: you keep us together for years on end without any

743
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 1: any of course elsewhere, like we couldn't unless we die

744
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 1: on the show, we can't. We can't get out of

745
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,879
Speaker 1: this thing. We're not gonna so so so we're continually

746
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,879
Speaker 1: thrust together. And I think the reality is that young

747
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:57,800
Speaker 1: actors actors in general, really relate to one another in

748
00:41:57,840 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 1: a way that no one else is going to be

749
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: able to relate, which is often why they find relationships together.

750
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 1: You know, Um, it's actually why I cherished so much

751
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 1: that my wife is not an actress. Yes, but I

752
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 1: realized now why I was, why I had a couple

753
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 1: of significant relationships with actresses, because no one else can

754
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 1: quite understand what you're doing and and uniquely on that show,

755
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 1: what was happening then, So you know, that's right, that's right. No,

756
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: but yeah, you you guys at that time, and part

757
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 1: of it was in New York too. I mean, I

758
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: think that's a huge New York a huge party. You

759
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 1: were the biggest kind of pop hit culture show in

760
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 1: New York and you're all and who else can relate

761
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:43,959
Speaker 1: to you at that well, just one of the people

762
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,799
Speaker 1: you're working with exactly, No, exactly, And you know, to

763
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 1: be fair, the way that Blake and I got in

764
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 1: relationship and sort of more or less clung to one another.

765
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 1: I think it was a certain it was a safety

766
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 1: and it and it worked by the way, like I

767
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 1: think those first couple of years of the show was

768
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 1: when we were all gonna get broadsided by fame and

769
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 1: all that more than any other you know, And I

770
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 1: think in a way we were it was a safety mechanism.

771
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 1: Like I'm not saying that it was in a legitimate

772
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 1: relationship and we loved each other and stuff, but you know,

773
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:16,320
Speaker 1: when I look back, I'm like, man, I'm thankful for

774
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,720
Speaker 1: that relationship for that reason. You know, we we actually

775
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 1: didn't engage socially the same way that that that everyone

776
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 1: else kind of was thrust into it because you know,

777
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 1: the other relationships were cycling through a lot faster and

778
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 1: for better or worse, ours was longer and that and

779
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 1: I do think it was a safety. You keep in

780
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,799
Speaker 1: touch with those guys still, you know. So I had

781
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:40,400
Speaker 1: Chase on the show, and I oh, and I had

782
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 1: Laton on the show and Sebastian. So it's kind of

783
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 1: like a smattering. It's like a it's like a we

784
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,879
Speaker 1: don't were like roommates from college where we remember each

785
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 1: other fondly, but we're not always right in touch, you know. Yeah,

786
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 1: you talked earlier of your first and maybe more significant

787
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 1: love of music. Um, I want to talk to you

788
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 1: little bit about mother, Okay, yeah, with an X, with

789
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:08,440
Speaker 1: an X, yes, I have to be clear about that.

790
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 1: Were you excited, I mean this this starts around the

791
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 1: time Gossip Girl ends. Were you excited to do something

792
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 1: in a new direction and pursue that sort of original love?

793
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 1: Very yeah? Actually know it's funny, I haven't. I haven't

794
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 1: spoken about mother really in an interview at length in

795
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 1: a while, I don't think, which is so thank you

796
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 1: for the opportunity. Um. Yeah. So by the time gossip

797
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 1: Girl was ending, Remember how I said that I I

798
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 1: was kind of thinking about hanging it up at least

799
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 1: in terms of television by the by the time Gossip

800
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 1: Girl came around, right, So I felt that way. Even

801
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 1: more so by the end of gossip Girl because it

802
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 1: was such a full on experience, I really wanted to

803
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 1: pursue acting more. I didn't know what kind of opportunities

804
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 1: would present themselves. So I knew, you know, I've done

805
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:55,719
Speaker 1: a few great film roles that were very encouraging and

806
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 1: inspiring and then ultimately lead to music because I played

807
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 1: a role I played of Buckley in this in this

808
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 1: very kind of small, quiet biopic. It was not a

809
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 1: traditional biopic in that sense. It's just like this little

810
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:10,800
Speaker 1: snapshot right kind of viaby movie and playing a musician,

811
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:13,799
Speaker 1: you know, it was just finally kind of things felt

812
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 1: like they were meeting where I loved and then and

813
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:19,319
Speaker 1: then after so yeah, so Gossip Girl ends, and I

814
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 1: just really wanted to play music and I had. I mean,

815
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 1: the key thing is that I had this great friendship

816
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 1: with His name is Jimmy Gianopolis, who's actually now directing movies,

817
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,919
Speaker 1: and I've done is it one or two? I feel

818
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:33,360
Speaker 1: like I've done bit parts and at least one of

819
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 1: his movies. But it's funny that I can't remember because

820
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 1: we that's the nature of our relationship. We we we

821
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 1: met back in what we just immediately knew that we

822
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 1: would make things together. By the time Gossip girlins and

823
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,919
Speaker 1: late finally there's some time we start recording this thing.

824
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 1: We include two other friends, the four of us become

825
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 1: this really tight knit unit for like a month and

826
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:59,280
Speaker 1: make this record, and then we got a deal and

827
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: and toured that record on and off for three years.

828
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 1: And by the end of those three years, we had

829
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,279
Speaker 1: done what is very hard to do. We had gone

830
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 1: to a point where we could sell out, you know,

831
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 1: like a five capacity club and in all the major

832
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 1: in like a major city like New York, London, l A,

833
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 1: places in South America as well, like and uh, we

834
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 1: we could have actually kept continued except the fact that

835
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 1: like we'd we'd overcome those professional hurdles of making music

836
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:31,799
Speaker 1: that people want to go see and pay money for

837
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 1: in the age of streaming, which is a racket. I

838
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 1: don't know how people do it now. It's just insane.

839
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 1: But with the four of us, we're now unfriendly terms.

840
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 1: But we we really couldn't work together creatively. Then something

841
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 1: some think something about the foundation of the way it

842
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 1: all started. It just didn't really pave the way for

843
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:52,359
Speaker 1: more than one record to be made. We couldn't. We

844
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:54,399
Speaker 1: didn't find that we could work together in the same way,

845
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:56,439
Speaker 1: and that's that's a shame, but it is it's also

846
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 1: I think very common. You know, it's hard to it's

847
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 1: like being married to to three other guys. You know,

848
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 1: it's just it's it's uh engaging in a in a

849
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:14,319
Speaker 1: creative and and business partnership is like you better get

850
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:17,879
Speaker 1: ready again cling to your journal that that's my maunch

851
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 1: for today. Well, but and you're also spending I mean,

852
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 1: so you're engaging in business and creative and then you're,

853
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 1: as you say, you're going on tour. So then you're

854
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 1: also living together. Oh yeah, yeah, and and you know, travel, sleeping,

855
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 1: advance together. And it's always so scrappy because you need

856
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 1: to make a lot of money to be able to

857
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 1: do that in a way that it's not scrappy tour

858
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 1: and uh so it was really, uh it was great.

859
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 1: It was actually you know what, it was a little

860
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:50,239
Speaker 1: bit like I was finally doing what I never got

861
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 1: to do as a teenager. And then but it was

862
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 1: in my my mid to late twenties, I was getting

863
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:58,799
Speaker 1: to have a band and like grow out my hair,

864
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 1: and we started in shows that were so small and

865
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 1: so bad, and then by the end of it, we

866
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 1: were actually knowing how to really like rock a crowd

867
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:10,880
Speaker 1: of five hundred, six hundred people, it was like. And

868
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:13,439
Speaker 1: we also did play We got the chance to open

869
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 1: for much bigger acts and play big festivals, and we

870
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 1: would sometimes play for crowds that were like ten fifteen thousand,

871
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 1: and that was man, that was actually I can't believe

872
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:27,279
Speaker 1: we did that. It's it's it's really, it's really really

873
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 1: a lot at that level of performance. It's it's but

874
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 1: if you when you find yourself in those moments, like,

875
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 1: it is special, it's very special. Yeah. But no, no

876
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 1: more albums and not from other No. And I and

877
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 1: I mean, all those guys kept going on with it,

878
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 1: and they're all very talented producers and songwriters and musicians

879
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 1: and their own right, and they're all just you know,

880
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 1: making it work the way that artists do. But yeah,

881
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 1: and I might put out of I might. I might

882
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:57,279
Speaker 1: actually get it together and put out a record of

883
00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 1: some kind in the future. But you know, it's not

884
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 1: it's it's what I was saying earlier about, just like

885
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,680
Speaker 1: the the racket, the age of streaming, the same way

886
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 1: that has changed television in a large part in film,

887
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 1: it's changed music even more, I think, because it's like

888
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 1: the only way to make money as to tour, and

889
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 1: touring is a very intense lifestyle, and so I think

890
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 1: in order to make it worth it, you need to

891
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 1: be very successful. You had a song on the album

892
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 1: called Victim and attempting to make one of the greatest

893
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 1: segues in the history of podcasting. I think I know

894
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:56,399
Speaker 1: you're going with this your next show. You come on.

895
00:49:56,719 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 1: That was pretty good bright to you that we're going.

896
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 1: It's certainly the most unique I've gotten. And I do

897
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 1: want to say it's the best because that's a good

898
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:09,719
Speaker 1: song too. It's one of my favorite songs of ours.

899
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:14,880
Speaker 1: I knew that. That's why I said it. Uh Stalker

900
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:19,319
Speaker 1: murderer Joe Goldberg and you Now I have to tell you,

901
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 1: I well, I mean, I guess the word is binged.

902
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 1: I binged season one. I have, I have, I have

903
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:30,839
Speaker 1: watched every episode of the show. I don't it is

904
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 1: we were talking about before, so I'm gonna bring it

905
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 1: up now because we're talking about uh you. It is

906
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:43,759
Speaker 1: in line with what you know many people call the

907
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 1: Golden Age of television, which I identify as being the

908
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 1: time where we found the anti hero. Yeah, I would

909
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 1: agree with you. There the greatest you know in in

910
00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:03,680
Speaker 1: in my opinion, being Tony Rano or or yes, break

911
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:08,840
Speaker 1: Walter White breaking Bad, many many others um and I

912
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:14,360
Speaker 1: It's it's compelling in that way, but of course different.

913
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:16,839
Speaker 1: It is different because it's funny when you say, when

914
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 1: you bring up those two, I mean, I don't ever

915
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 1: in my mind include Joe Goldberg in the same realm.

916
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:24,320
Speaker 1: And I'm not giving the same kind of performance, and

917
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 1: it isn't the same kind of show, but you are

918
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:28,319
Speaker 1: right that it is part of In a way, I

919
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 1: feel like my show You is now kind of like

920
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 1: an entrance into the next iteration of this golden era

921
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 1: where of the anti hero, because the show is so

922
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 1: like um, almost like self referencing. It's it is popular.

923
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 1: It's not the clinical portrayal of a real killer. It's

924
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's not a man falling

925
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:54,439
Speaker 1: from grace. It's a man starting out as this sort

926
00:51:54,480 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 1: of like evil deconstruction of the same trope we've been

927
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 1: imbibing for the last couple of decades, you know, and

928
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 1: like John Hughes movies and stuff, romantic tropes of of

929
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:12,800
Speaker 1: a good man. Yes, I think that's true. Yeah, And

930
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:17,359
Speaker 1: and there's never a real attempt to be good. Yet

931
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 1: we do find ourselves caring about him and what ultimately

932
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 1: is going to happen to him. Um, I understand you.

933
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:30,840
Speaker 1: You almost didn't take this role as well, right, Evidently

934
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:34,240
Speaker 1: that's just part of my character, my my pan Batics

935
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 1: character flaws. Yes, I was in a similar position where

936
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 1: so after my band mother. Actually, you know what, this

937
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 1: was a good segue because you're tracking, you're kind of

938
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 1: going through the actual timeline here. I haven't done I

939
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:50,960
Speaker 1: haven't done an interview like this in a very long time.

940
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 1: Thank you, So kudos to you. I had so my

941
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 1: band had just dissolved. We had just done the thing

942
00:52:58,160 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 1: that was very hard to do, and then realized we

943
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:01,400
Speaker 1: couldn't make another record, and so that was a bit

944
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:05,000
Speaker 1: of spiriting. I was considering exploring a solo career in

945
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 1: music and actually had some meetings set up with labels.

946
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:12,759
Speaker 1: The script comes along, and again I actually was like,

947
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 1: you know what, this is not initially what I'm interested in.

948
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 1: It felt it just felt like I couldn't appreciate the

949
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 1: places it would go and how different it actually was,

950
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 1: because you know, when television, you only get to read

951
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:28,560
Speaker 1: the pilot, and in the pilot, a lot of what

952
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:31,080
Speaker 1: I was resisting was where I felt like I saw

953
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:33,279
Speaker 1: Dan Humphrey, you know what I mean, And if you

954
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:36,279
Speaker 1: look at the very first scene where Joe meets back,

955
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 1: I'm basically Dan Humphrey. And then performance was because I

956
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 1: actually mean you all in every way, the way that

957
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 1: I look, the way that I'm acting, the way that

958
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 1: the character is behaving. This sort of conceit of a

959
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:51,200
Speaker 1: man falling in love with a woman who's unattainable, but

960
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 1: who he's actually going to end up with. Um, you

961
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:55,799
Speaker 1: know what I mean. It's like, it's it's it's I

962
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:59,800
Speaker 1: don't remember the first scene, but I believe he's a

963
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:03,960
Speaker 1: book snorting yeah, yeah, and Dan was a writer, you know.

964
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:07,160
Speaker 1: So it's just it's just it's a it's to me,

965
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:09,320
Speaker 1: I think, what actually the reason it all works. And

966
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 1: then what's brilliant about it is that it's kind of

967
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 1: picking up not where Gossip Girl and Dan left off,

968
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:16,840
Speaker 1: but it's picking up where that era of that kind

969
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 1: of show leaves off. Because look, even the Gossip Girl reboot,

970
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 1: it doesn't it's it doesn't hit the same like we

971
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:26,360
Speaker 1: don't live in the same age, we don't live in

972
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 1: the same political time, we don't live in the same time.

973
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:33,440
Speaker 1: Where like the way climate change literally generates anxiety and

974
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:36,000
Speaker 1: generations of youth, we didn't have that. We should have,

975
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:37,319
Speaker 1: by the way, but we didn't have it in two

976
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:41,880
Speaker 1: thousands seven, you know, like like it's just not the same.

977
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:45,759
Speaker 1: People don't feel the same people don't, you know, So

978
00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 1: therefore they don't want to see the same thing. And

979
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 1: I think why I might show you works is that

980
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:53,640
Speaker 1: it kind of brilliantly sees that takes the sort of

981
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:57,959
Speaker 1: conceit of a romantic lead, whether he's Dan Humphrey or

982
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:02,399
Speaker 1: or he's from something early three decades prior in John

983
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:05,600
Speaker 1: Hughes film you know, and it, and it starts there,

984
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 1: but says this is there's something wrong with this, there's

985
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:15,000
Speaker 1: something wrong with these ideas. Let's start. And I'm not

986
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 1: saying that there's nothing right about the idea of romance

987
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:21,600
Speaker 1: in the way we've seen it in movies. But this

988
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:24,120
Speaker 1: show is not a show that's doing that. It's exploring

989
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:26,600
Speaker 1: what's really actually kind of crazy and toxic about a

990
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:30,239
Speaker 1: lot of romantic tropes, particularly in the portrayal of men

991
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:33,680
Speaker 1: as romantic leads kind of like needing to win the

992
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:37,640
Speaker 1: affection of women and thereby just sort of perpetionally objectifying them.

993
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:40,160
Speaker 1: So I think it's to me that's what's really cool.

994
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 1: But I couldn't feel and see all of that when

995
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:46,480
Speaker 1: I first read the pilot. I really just saw the

996
00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:49,480
Speaker 1: things that it shared as opposed to the things that

997
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:53,399
Speaker 1: it did really differently, and so I was really really

998
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 1: hesitant and and sort of tried to say no to

999
00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:01,440
Speaker 1: to Greg Berlante. But it was my conversations with him

1000
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 1: and Sarah Gamble, who co created the show together, and

1001
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:08,360
Speaker 1: it's really Sarah Gamble's journey as a showrunner's her creation,

1002
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:12,400
Speaker 1: her baby. Um, it's my conversations with them that that

1003
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:15,439
Speaker 1: convinced me that it was like, oh, this is really

1004
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:17,920
Speaker 1: doing something different and it will be really really interesting

1005
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:23,239
Speaker 1: to do. I have to ask you a question. Now,

1006
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 1: there's an obvious answer here, but I'm trying to go

1007
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:29,680
Speaker 1: a little bit deeper. So indulge me for just a second.

1008
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:39,200
Speaker 1: Why Joe is a fairly charismatic and on the surface

1009
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 1: likable character, Right, He's able, He's a likable guy. He's

1010
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 1: a you know, moderately attractive of course, played by moderately.

1011
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:56,319
Speaker 1: I'm stressing that word attractive, played by you. Why does

1012
00:56:56,480 --> 00:57:01,760
Speaker 1: he feel as though he must do what he does?

1013
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:07,719
Speaker 1: Or is it just I'm trying to get it when yeah,

1014
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:12,400
Speaker 1: truly exploring like why does he why does he feel

1015
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 1: he must do what? He does as opposed to break

1016
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:21,640
Speaker 1: because there are several times I feel like the character

1017
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:25,200
Speaker 1: is going to break away from this and he can't

1018
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:29,480
Speaker 1: do you know why? Well, so there's like three levels

1019
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:32,040
Speaker 1: to this answer, and I don't know which one to

1020
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:35,120
Speaker 1: So on one hand, I think the writers would give

1021
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:40,560
Speaker 1: you a better answer that pertains to the to Joe

1022
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:45,240
Speaker 1: Goldberg than I can. As an actor. I just I

1023
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:47,360
Speaker 1: can't really question a lot of this stuff. I just

1024
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 1: have to believe what I'm saying, and that's what I

1025
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:54,439
Speaker 1: try to do. And then I think, So there's there's

1026
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:56,880
Speaker 1: two levels to it. One is that I think the

1027
00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:00,600
Speaker 1: show is always meant to be more are of a

1028
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:06,360
Speaker 1: of a metaphor or it's a work of like fiction

1029
00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:10,480
Speaker 1: that is somewhat fantastical and campy in the way that

1030
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:14,640
Speaker 1: it's exploring the story of this man and always at

1031
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:17,440
Speaker 1: the end grounding it in something that resonates so profoundly

1032
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:21,920
Speaker 1: as like emotionally consistent and truth, so that it always

1033
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 1: comes home in this way that like truly good fiction

1034
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:29,120
Speaker 1: is of course it's real because it resonates no matter

1035
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:32,040
Speaker 1: how fantastical it is. It's doing something where it is like,

1036
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:34,760
Speaker 1: oh that's yeah, like I'm having a true I'm having

1037
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 1: some kind of reflection that it's worthwhile because it's like

1038
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:39,240
Speaker 1: there's something true here even though it's a total fiction.

1039
00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:43,800
Speaker 1: In that way, there's something deep happening. But I think

1040
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:46,120
Speaker 1: when it comes to Joe as a killer and as

1041
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 1: a person who really does that behavior, I don't think

1042
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:50,840
Speaker 1: he's I don't think anybody's ever tried to ground him

1043
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:55,920
Speaker 1: in in like the clinical reality of someone who does that,

1044
00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:59,360
Speaker 1: this sort of pathological makeup, you know what I mean,

1045
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:01,160
Speaker 1: Because I think like at the end of the day,

1046
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 1: he feels too much and is maybe too inconsistent to

1047
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:11,080
Speaker 1: truly be what a real killer would be, like say,

1048
00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:12,680
Speaker 1: I don't know, but then us at the same time,

1049
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:15,320
Speaker 1: I think Ted Bundy was evidently very like I don't know,

1050
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:17,160
Speaker 1: he had a lot, he had what didn't he have

1051
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:20,280
Speaker 1: like a family and he and then there's a gay

1052
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:22,640
Speaker 1: cy I guess, was like evidently loved by his community,

1053
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:26,160
Speaker 1: and and so you know, there's there's I actually don't

1054
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 1: know that much about zero Killers in in truth. I mean,

1055
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:31,680
Speaker 1: I I just think that what the writers are exploring

1056
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:34,200
Speaker 1: is something different. I think it's like an I think

1057
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:36,560
Speaker 1: it's like an exercise you know, it's like a meditation.

1058
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:39,920
Speaker 1: And so there are things that Joe does that are

1059
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:42,520
Speaker 1: you know, maybe impossible or inconsistent, and that's not the point.

1060
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:44,960
Speaker 1: I think the point is where examining something and it

1061
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:49,280
Speaker 1: always comes home in something that really makes sense. And

1062
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:51,720
Speaker 1: so then on the other level, where if Joe is,

1063
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 1: if we're trying to understand why Joe really does this,

1064
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:56,040
Speaker 1: which is to say why anybody could or would do this,

1065
00:59:56,480 --> 00:59:58,960
Speaker 1: it all has to do with I think unprocessed trauma.

1066
00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 1: You know, it comes to maleness, like masculinity, when it

1067
01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:05,760
Speaker 1: comes to whiteness, when it comes to any any behavior

1068
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:10,600
Speaker 1: that someone exhibits that is ultimately violent to like another

1069
01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:13,080
Speaker 1: group of people, because it's not Joe does kill people,

1070
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:16,680
Speaker 1: but it's he's uniquely violent towards women, the same way

1071
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:19,840
Speaker 1: that like there is racial violence. It is if something

1072
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:22,960
Speaker 1: is racially motivated, something is motivated by a bias, you know,

1073
01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:27,840
Speaker 1: by prejudice. As my understanding, you know, many brilliant, famous

1074
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:30,240
Speaker 1: thinkers have said something like this. The person who comes

1075
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:34,320
Speaker 1: to mind is Bell Hooks, a black woman sort of

1076
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:39,360
Speaker 1: think her philosopher activists many things. She said something the

1077
01:00:39,360 --> 01:00:43,600
Speaker 1: effect of, like, you know, the first casualty in um,

1078
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:45,840
Speaker 1: she didn't say toxic masculinity because I I don't think

1079
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:48,080
Speaker 1: that was such so much to phrase them, which in

1080
01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:50,640
Speaker 1: my understanding, she's talking about like, you know, maleness, like

1081
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:53,360
Speaker 1: in male violence, you know, but the first casualty is

1082
01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:57,480
Speaker 1: to that man, to his soul. And I think it's

1083
01:00:57,480 --> 01:01:01,040
Speaker 1: the same and racially motivated violent all forms of violence,

1084
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:03,800
Speaker 1: you know, the first act, the first casualty, the first

1085
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:06,040
Speaker 1: act of violence is to the person who's perpetrating it.

1086
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:09,160
Speaker 1: And I think that one of the reasons this show

1087
01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:12,440
Speaker 1: also really resonates is that that is we're looking at again,

1088
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:15,880
Speaker 1: not a clinical portrayal, but like this sort of the

1089
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:18,840
Speaker 1: way that something in Lord of the Rings resonates as true.

1090
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:23,080
Speaker 1: It's ultimately about like what perseverance, about friendship, about I

1091
01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:24,600
Speaker 1: don't know, like I'm not really sure. I'm not really

1092
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:27,720
Speaker 1: Lord of the Rings person, but it's right, like, it's

1093
01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:31,320
Speaker 1: not about it's not about the ring, it's about something else.

1094
01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:34,400
Speaker 1: That's what this show is. Well, that's what I think,

1095
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:37,400
Speaker 1: That's what I think. Yeah, I know, I agree with you.

1096
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:44,720
Speaker 1: I mean there's something about as you mentioned before, well

1097
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:51,320
Speaker 1: one the objectification of women by him, for sure, But

1098
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:54,080
Speaker 1: I think that also, And I think what it is

1099
01:01:54,240 --> 01:01:58,840
Speaker 1: why it just the show I can't stop watching it

1100
01:01:58,920 --> 01:02:03,520
Speaker 1: is it has to do it. It's something about it's

1101
01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:11,120
Speaker 1: the idealization of what love love and specifically what what

1102
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:17,120
Speaker 1: Hollywood quote unquote or movies or shows or whatever tells

1103
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:22,640
Speaker 1: us about love and what it should be or what

1104
01:02:22,680 --> 01:02:28,680
Speaker 1: it can be and how it should manifest itself. I

1105
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:32,160
Speaker 1: agree with you, Yeah, yeah, I know That's what I've

1106
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:35,280
Speaker 1: tapped into as a thinking person with my role. I

1107
01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:38,000
Speaker 1: don't always necessarily think about this, like between action and cut,

1108
01:02:38,040 --> 01:02:39,960
Speaker 1: Like when I'm having Joe, it's like, it just is

1109
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:42,040
Speaker 1: what it is. But the way that it really are

1110
01:02:42,080 --> 01:02:43,840
Speaker 1: resonates to me is exactly what you said, Like it

1111
01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:47,360
Speaker 1: isn't even about you know when I talk about yeah,

1112
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:50,040
Speaker 1: it isn't even really about It isn't just about the

1113
01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:53,000
Speaker 1: objectification of women. It's it's it is I think much

1114
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:57,160
Speaker 1: more about, like, well, this guy like if he's if

1115
01:02:57,160 --> 01:02:59,600
Speaker 1: he's doing all this, the first person he's doing it

1116
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:02,200
Speaker 1: to is an self, but because he can't recognize that,

1117
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:04,440
Speaker 1: he then has to do it to other people, you know.

1118
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:08,120
Speaker 1: And so and I think that really crazy myth of

1119
01:03:08,160 --> 01:03:11,560
Speaker 1: love that Hollywood has unconsciously and also in some cases

1120
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:15,640
Speaker 1: consciously sold us basically since its inception is that that

1121
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:19,160
Speaker 1: you you have to feel as though you're like addicted

1122
01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:22,960
Speaker 1: to a freaking drug. Otherwise there's no love. Otherwise there's

1123
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:26,160
Speaker 1: passion and and it's akin to believing in magic. It's like,

1124
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:29,680
Speaker 1: if I'm not feeling these feelings like I can't have

1125
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:33,320
Speaker 1: anything to do with love, then if it's not a practice,

1126
01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:35,920
Speaker 1: it's not a discipline. It's this magical feeling that visits

1127
01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:37,560
Speaker 1: me that I have to feel, and if I don't

1128
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:41,160
Speaker 1: feel it, then I must not be in love. And

1129
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:45,880
Speaker 1: you know, all people I think are somewhat victim to

1130
01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:50,440
Speaker 1: this idea of love that is actually really really unhelpful

1131
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:52,800
Speaker 1: if you want to have a relationship, and I think

1132
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:56,240
Speaker 1: Joe is more than anything victim to that. It's like,

1133
01:03:56,320 --> 01:04:02,320
Speaker 1: you don't understand the first thing about love. You actually don't.

1134
01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:05,800
Speaker 1: You actually do not understand a single thing about it.

1135
01:04:06,040 --> 01:04:08,080
Speaker 1: And you know what that is sad, and you know

1136
01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:10,200
Speaker 1: what the first person to get hurt and all of

1137
01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:14,960
Speaker 1: that is you. That's the title at all, Just you

1138
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:21,600
Speaker 1: fascinating season four coming up, your directorial debut. That's right? Yeah,

1139
01:04:22,280 --> 01:04:24,600
Speaker 1: how was that was? That fun. It was fun. It

1140
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:26,000
Speaker 1: was also like we didn't have time for me to

1141
01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:28,720
Speaker 1: watch playback, so it was chaotic. I mean I was

1142
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:30,480
Speaker 1: I was kind of directing with my eyes closed. So

1143
01:04:30,560 --> 01:04:32,160
Speaker 1: I I feel good about it. I feel good about

1144
01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:35,400
Speaker 1: the cut. I haven't seen the final finals. They take

1145
01:04:35,440 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 1: it and do their do their do their work to it.

1146
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:41,800
Speaker 1: But UM, great experience overall, like, yeah, something you want

1147
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:44,600
Speaker 1: to keep doing. I don't know that I can do

1148
01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:47,280
Speaker 1: it on my show. In fact, I'm almost positive I can't.

1149
01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:50,200
Speaker 1: It was too much at all. At the same time,

1150
01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:53,320
Speaker 1: it just wasn't really feat because Joe is placed so

1151
01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:55,440
Speaker 1: centrally in the show, like there was no opportunity for

1152
01:04:55,480 --> 01:04:58,920
Speaker 1: me to prep adequately. So again, the thing that enables

1153
01:04:58,920 --> 01:05:00,480
Speaker 1: me to do it is also of the thing that

1154
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:02,680
Speaker 1: hinders me from doing it. So I think, like I

1155
01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:04,840
Speaker 1: would love, I mean I do, I am in the

1156
01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:08,840
Speaker 1: works to direct something else, but but not I don't

1157
01:05:08,840 --> 01:05:11,200
Speaker 1: think I can do my own show what We'll See.

1158
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:17,920
Speaker 1: You mentioned it before pod Crushed Premier this year earlier

1159
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:22,480
Speaker 1: this year. How has how has that been? Man, it's

1160
01:05:22,480 --> 01:05:25,680
Speaker 1: been It's been a real joy, you know, because it's like,

1161
01:05:26,120 --> 01:05:30,480
Speaker 1: even though it's only one half of the medium of film.

1162
01:05:30,520 --> 01:05:34,880
Speaker 1: It's just the audio mostly. UM say for bonus content,

1163
01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:39,080
Speaker 1: would you can find it on on YouTube channel would Um

1164
01:05:39,120 --> 01:05:41,400
Speaker 1: It's like it's an exercise and production, you know, I

1165
01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:43,320
Speaker 1: mean I kind of love it, Like like me and

1166
01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:46,360
Speaker 1: my two producing partners, we're cutting our teeth with it

1167
01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:49,320
Speaker 1: and it's it's great. It's um you know. And just

1168
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:52,680
Speaker 1: this the stories that we get from everybody, I think

1169
01:05:52,800 --> 01:06:00,120
Speaker 1: is really lovely because everybody can relate to feeling of

1170
01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:04,080
Speaker 1: rejection and awkwardness and insecurity prof I mean deep insecurity,

1171
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:05,720
Speaker 1: Like it doesn't matter who you are, the level of

1172
01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:09,560
Speaker 1: insecurity you feel when you're in middle school is is

1173
01:06:10,000 --> 01:06:13,120
Speaker 1: essentially as deep as it's ever going to get. And

1174
01:06:13,120 --> 01:06:14,800
Speaker 1: and that, I don't know, it shapes who we are.

1175
01:06:14,840 --> 01:06:17,000
Speaker 1: It shapes how we how we see the world and

1176
01:06:17,040 --> 01:06:18,840
Speaker 1: what we think of it, and how we see ourselves

1177
01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:21,440
Speaker 1: and how we behave in all of our relationships. So

1178
01:06:21,520 --> 01:06:23,080
Speaker 1: I think if you, you know, if you tap into

1179
01:06:23,120 --> 01:06:25,280
Speaker 1: it the right way, you can get anywhere from something

1180
01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:27,840
Speaker 1: that is really really really funny and light to something

1181
01:06:27,920 --> 01:06:31,160
Speaker 1: that is frankly, really really intense. And we've kind of

1182
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:34,000
Speaker 1: had all those stories. We've had stories of stories of

1183
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:38,320
Speaker 1: a breakup that is so painfully awkward but superficial because

1184
01:06:38,320 --> 01:06:42,200
Speaker 1: they're like eleven two stories of someone losing their mother,

1185
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:44,760
Speaker 1: you know, And I mean it literally is that spectrum.

1186
01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:48,920
Speaker 1: It's like it's like it's it and and it's all

1187
01:06:49,600 --> 01:06:53,120
Speaker 1: in these you know, stories that are written in from

1188
01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:56,000
Speaker 1: from people who listen to the show. And then of

1189
01:06:56,040 --> 01:06:58,680
Speaker 1: course that isn't those stories are not the heart of

1190
01:06:58,680 --> 01:07:00,840
Speaker 1: the show with everybody. All of our guests come on

1191
01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:03,560
Speaker 1: and tell, you know, various story from middle school and

1192
01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:04,840
Speaker 1: we just kind of go from there. But at the

1193
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:08,640
Speaker 1: end of every every episode there's a there's a narrated

1194
01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 1: story by me from one of our listeners, and you know,

1195
01:07:12,680 --> 01:07:16,000
Speaker 1: it's just it's like, as I said before, it's it's

1196
01:07:16,040 --> 01:07:19,840
Speaker 1: almost been like a way to process. I mean, I

1197
01:07:19,880 --> 01:07:21,920
Speaker 1: didn't finish middle school, you know. And the two people

1198
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:23,600
Speaker 1: that I'm doing the show with their two teachers, so

1199
01:07:23,920 --> 01:07:26,520
Speaker 1: they didn't. They're not only finished middle school, they then

1200
01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:31,200
Speaker 1: went back to it as adults, so you know, more right,

1201
01:07:31,280 --> 01:07:33,400
Speaker 1: and so we're coming at it from a lot of

1202
01:07:33,440 --> 01:07:38,080
Speaker 1: angles in a way. Well, I have been really enjoying

1203
01:07:38,120 --> 01:07:42,560
Speaker 1: I've been catching up on episodes recently because spoiler alert

1204
01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:47,560
Speaker 1: there's gonna be a very special guest. How special, odd,

1205
01:07:48,560 --> 01:07:54,160
Speaker 1: really really special. I can only promise specialness. I'm I'm

1206
01:07:54,280 --> 01:07:59,160
Speaker 1: very much looking forward to that, Penn, thank you so much.

1207
01:07:59,600 --> 01:08:02,479
Speaker 1: Thanks chatting. Yeah, man, thank you so much for having

1208
01:08:02,480 --> 01:08:06,480
Speaker 1: me on. Uh, congratulations on all the success of course,

1209
01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:10,520
Speaker 1: and on the new season of you. And just just

1210
01:08:10,640 --> 01:08:16,600
Speaker 1: know this, I will I will be watching you. We

1211
01:08:16,720 --> 01:08:19,880
Speaker 1: got a new Joe Goldberg right here. Thank you, Thank you,

1212
01:08:20,280 --> 01:08:36,080
Speaker 1: Thanks Ben Pen. Awesome time talking with you. You may

1213
01:08:36,120 --> 01:08:39,559
Speaker 1: be the second pen on this show, but you are

1214
01:08:39,720 --> 01:08:44,840
Speaker 1: absolutely tied for first place in my heart. Hi. I

1215
01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:48,800
Speaker 1: hope you're ready for a very special guest on your podcast.

1216
01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:53,599
Speaker 1: No no, no, my friend, you cannot keep me away.

1217
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:58,400
Speaker 1: I am going to get pod crushed. For all you listeners,

1218
01:08:58,439 --> 01:09:01,080
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed today's episod owed as much as

1219
01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:04,439
Speaker 1: I did getting to No Pen. We've got a very

1220
01:09:04,479 --> 01:09:07,080
Speaker 1: special episode for you next week end of the year,

1221
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:20,920
Speaker 1: coming round. We will see you that. Off the Beat

1222
01:09:21,200 --> 01:09:25,560
Speaker 1: is hosted an executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside

1223
01:09:25,560 --> 01:09:29,959
Speaker 1: our executive producer Langley. Our senior producer is Diego Tapia.

1224
01:09:30,200 --> 01:09:33,879
Speaker 1: Our producers are Liz Hayes, Hannah Harris and Emily Carr.

1225
01:09:34,120 --> 01:09:38,040
Speaker 1: Our talent producer is Ryan Papa Zachary and our intern

1226
01:09:38,320 --> 01:09:42,480
Speaker 1: is Sammy Cats. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed

1227
01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:45,040
Speaker 1: by the one and only Creed Bratton,