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Speaker 1: Wouldn't it be cool to have, um, like the power

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Speaker 1: to see invisible things, like if you had anti invisibility glasses. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's so much of our universe around us that we

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Speaker 1: can't see things that are going on all the time

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Speaker 1: that are invisible to us. It'd be awesome to invent

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Speaker 1: some new technology to reveal that, to peel back that

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Speaker 1: layer of reality and show us all the crazy stuff

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Speaker 1: that's happening. No. Yeah, I would definitely love to see that.

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Speaker 1: Do you have a million dollars to invent invest in

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Speaker 1: my startup? I have a million dollars, but um, maybe

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Speaker 1: not to invest in you, Dadia. Oh, somebody already got

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Speaker 1: to you with that idea, didn't they. Somebody already pitched

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Speaker 1: you Maybe maybe, But yeah, no, I like this idea

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Speaker 1: that there are invisible things out there in the universe

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Speaker 1: that are really important and are maybe determining my fate

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Speaker 1: and the fate of our planets in our solar system

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Speaker 1: and our galaxy. Hi, am Ory, I'm a cartoonist and

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Speaker 1: the creator of PhD comics. Hi I'm Daniel. I'm a

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Speaker 1: particle physicist. I've never created a web comic, but I

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Speaker 1: did co write a book with a web comic. It's

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Speaker 1: called We Have No Idea and it's all about the

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Speaker 1: unknowns in the universe. Oh man, that sounds amazing. I

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Speaker 1: would love to read that. You should, It's fantastic. I

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Speaker 1: did actually read it a couple of times as I

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Speaker 1: helped write it. Did you read your name on the cover?

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Speaker 1: For example? But welcome to our podcast Daniel and Jorge

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Speaker 1: Explain the Universe, a production of I Heart Radio in

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Speaker 1: which we zoom all around the universe and find cool

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Speaker 1: and fascinating and bizarre stuff to blow your mind. But

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Speaker 1: we don't want to explode your mind. We actually want

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Speaker 1: to take that stuff and insert it into your brain.

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Speaker 1: We want to break it down and make it acessible

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Speaker 1: and reassemble it inside your mind. That's right, when it

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Speaker 1: stuff in your mind with as much stuff as we

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Speaker 1: can't without exploding it critical mental density. That's where we're

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Speaker 1: going for in today's show. But yeah, all the cool stuff,

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Speaker 1: all the amazing stuff, all the dark stuff in the universe,

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Speaker 1: all the invisible stuff, all they have visible stuff and

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Speaker 1: everything in between, because there are invisible things out there

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Speaker 1: in the universe, right there are invisible forces and objects

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Speaker 1: and maybe even matter. There definitely is there's a huge

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Speaker 1: amount of stuff going on in the universe that is

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Speaker 1: not directly observable to us, and it's only recently that

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Speaker 1: we've been gone peeling back those layers of invisibility, figuring

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Speaker 1: out ways to subtly detect what's out there that we

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Speaker 1: haven't even noticed, right, And we also try to talk

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Speaker 1: about how scientists are trying to discover these things, how

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Speaker 1: they're trying to peel back that layer and understand what's

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Speaker 1: going on in the invisible universe. That's right. Sometimes I

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Speaker 1: think about it like scientists are are out there inventing

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Speaker 1: new senses, right, Like your senses are your ways of

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Speaker 1: interacting with the world. Old you can see, you can smell,

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Speaker 1: you can touch, all these things help you build up

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Speaker 1: a model of what's outside your body. Right. Well, scientists

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Speaker 1: were like trying to create new contraptions that are basically

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Speaker 1: new senses, things machines that can see things that we

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Speaker 1: our bodies cannot see, and they can translate what they

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Speaker 1: see into something that we can understand. That would be

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Speaker 1: cool if you can build me like a like a

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Speaker 1: radar helmet, like a radar chip, I can implant in

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Speaker 1: my brain and have like bad like abilities or dare

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Speaker 1: devil like abilities exactly. Well, um, if you have a

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Speaker 1: million bucks, you can put that towards the startup I'm

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Speaker 1: going to start after this show inventing the radar helmet.

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Speaker 1: That sounds like an awesome idea. Man, you're really hungering

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Speaker 1: for some hankering for someone for a million bucks here, Daniel.

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Speaker 1: But you know, we we do this kind of thing

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Speaker 1: a lot, right, We extend the power of our senses, right,

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Speaker 1: Think about like what X rays are, right. X rays

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Speaker 1: are these little invisible rays. You can't see them, but

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Speaker 1: we can use them to see inside of stuff, right,

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Speaker 1: to give us to translate what we couldn't see before

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Speaker 1: into what we can see now. Wow, Yeah, you're right,

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Speaker 1: physicists did invent X ray vision. That's right. We literally

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Speaker 1: happen literally right, Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And we do this

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Speaker 1: kind of thing all the time. You know. That's basically

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Speaker 1: what experimental physics is. It's like try to develop a

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Speaker 1: new technology that can discover things that nobody's seen before.

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Speaker 1: Like you know, we've talked on this podcast before about neutrinos.

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Speaker 1: Neutrinos are these weird little particles that are everywhere and

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Speaker 1: they're you know, part of the table of matter as

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Speaker 1: we understand them. But they're very very hard to see

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Speaker 1: because they mostly just fly through stuff. But physicists figured

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Speaker 1: out a way to spot them. It takes billions of

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Speaker 1: neutrinos to fly through your detector before you see one,

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Speaker 1: but we can see them in that way. We discovered

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Speaker 1: that they're there, that the air is full of them.

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Speaker 1: And so today we're going to talk about what scientists

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Speaker 1: are doing to see to actually maybe even touch a

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Speaker 1: very important part of the universe, very big part of

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Speaker 1: the universe, maybe even the biggest part of the universe

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Speaker 1: that's invisible to us. That's right. It makes up most

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Speaker 1: of the matter of the universe, like of the stuff

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Speaker 1: in the universe. It's literally the biggest mystery in the universe.

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Speaker 1: And so today on the program, we'll be talking about

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Speaker 1: how can we see dark matter, how can we interact

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Speaker 1: with it, how can we finally sort of see it

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Speaker 1: up close, touch it maybe and to understand what it is,

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Speaker 1: because right now we have no idea what it is,

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Speaker 1: right Daniel, that's right. We know that it's there, we

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Speaker 1: know that it's stuff. We know it's some kind of

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Speaker 1: matter because it creates gravity. But we don't know what

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Speaker 1: it's made out of. We don't know if it's made

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Speaker 1: out of particles, made at one particle, two particles, seventeen particles,

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Speaker 1: something else that's not a particle. You know, we only

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Speaker 1: have very indirect evidence, very solid, but indirect evidence. It's

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Speaker 1: sort of like you're solving a murder mystery and you

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Speaker 1: have a bunch of circumstantial evidence. You know that Joe

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Speaker 1: Schmo is the guilty party, but you don't have that

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Speaker 1: smoking gun, you don't have the bloody knife or something.

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Speaker 1: You're not going to rest until you really find all

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Speaker 1: the details that really conclusively demonstrate to you what happened

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Speaker 1: on that fateful night. And that's sort of the situation

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Speaker 1: in the case of dark matter. I mean, it could

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Speaker 1: turn out to be that I was a physicist in

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Speaker 1: the cloak room with the wrench, right, I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: what dark matter could be. It could be unicorns, it

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Speaker 1: could be it could have been the engineer in the

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Speaker 1: library right with the bag of dark matter, that's right,

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Speaker 1: trying trying to make things work. Engineers always have altruistic

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Speaker 1: motives in your mind, right, whereas scientists are out there

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Speaker 1: like trying to take over the world. Right, Well, you know,

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Speaker 1: I like to think engineers actually know what they're doing

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Speaker 1: and they're not toying with things they don't understand. You're

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Speaker 1: not trying to create black holes here on Earth, you know, Hey, hey,

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Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with trying to create black holes on here.

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Speaker 1: And they're tiny, little, cute, very safe black holes. Okay,

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Speaker 1: right right, ped black holes, cozy little black holes, and

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Speaker 1: we got to rebrand them. You know, they sound so dangerous,

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Speaker 1: you know, unicorn black holes. Exactly do you feel like

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Speaker 1: they have a PR problem? Yeah? Exactly, black holes have

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Speaker 1: a PR problem exactly. And for those of you hearing

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Speaker 1: that we are trying to create black holes at the

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Speaker 1: Large Adrian Collider and worrying about it, we have a

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Speaker 1: whole episode dedicated to that, you are in no danger whatsoever. Wait.

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Speaker 1: I just thought of a really nerdy joke. Mm hmmm,

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Speaker 1: Actually black holes have an e PR problem. That's that's

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Speaker 1: a pretty nerdy joke. I agree. Impressive. Thank you. When

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Speaker 1: you have to laugh at your own joke and then

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Speaker 1: rib the other person into into acknowledging it, then that's

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Speaker 1: how you know it was a good joke. Those are

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Speaker 1: Those are the best jokes. Those are the dad jokes. Right,

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Speaker 1: you just made a combination scientist dad joke. It's a

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Speaker 1: whole new subgenre of humor, a dad scientist joke. Well

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Speaker 1: you fortunately, you are as bad scientists, so that hasn't

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Speaker 1: been right. They hit you right in the center. That's right.

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Speaker 1: I am your demographic h Well, that's that's all. Who's

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Speaker 1: listening to this podcast? Right? That's right. Hey, give me

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Speaker 1: a million bucks and I'll do a startup company with

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Speaker 1: dad's scientists jokes. Alright, but only if you pay your

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Speaker 1: podcast partner all of the million dollars. Done and done.

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Speaker 1: All right, we did some business today, all right. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: dark matter, we don't know what it is, and so

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Speaker 1: today we're going to talk a little bit about how

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Speaker 1: we might be able to see it and what scientists

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Speaker 1: are doing to actually see what dark matter is. That's right,

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Speaker 1: and to tease it a little bit. There are three

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Speaker 1: ways that we're looking for dark matter. You can either

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Speaker 1: shake it, break it, or make it. That's also a

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Speaker 1: recipe for cooking a delicious dark matter soufle I feel

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Speaker 1: like that's an informercial all now, and you will receive

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Speaker 1: our special offer for a shake it, break it, and

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Speaker 1: make it and that clever line about shake it, make it,

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Speaker 1: or break it is not something that I came up with.

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Speaker 1: I think the first person to say that was Jonathan

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Speaker 1: Fan He's a dark matter expert at You See Irvine.

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Speaker 1: All right, well let's see how we can shake, break,

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Speaker 1: or make dark matter. But first we were wondering how

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Speaker 1: many people out there think that we could ever see

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Speaker 1: dark matter? Or if we can see dark matter? That's right.

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Speaker 1: So I walked around the campus I You See Irvine

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Speaker 1: and asked folks, hey, do you think we could ever

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Speaker 1: see dark matter? And didn't explain to them what dark

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Speaker 1: matter was or give them much background, and just pop

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Speaker 1: this question on them. And so think about it for

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Speaker 1: a second. If somebody asked you randomly on the street, like, hey,

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Speaker 1: do you think we can ever see dark matter? Think

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Speaker 1: about for a second, how would you answer this question?

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Speaker 1: And would you give that guy a million bucks for

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Speaker 1: his dark matter startup? No? Well, anyways, here's what people

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Speaker 1: had to say. Have you heard of dark matter? Yes,

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Speaker 1: but I don't know what it is? Okay, give any idea?

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Speaker 1: How much see dark matter? Like? How dope? We just

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Speaker 1: discover it. It's like energy electrons. Maybe I'm not really sure,

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Speaker 1: all right, thanks very much. Have you heard of dark matter? Yes?

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Speaker 1: Do you have any idea how we could see or

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Speaker 1: discover dark matter? No? Because it isn't it just a theory?

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Speaker 1: Have you heard of dark matter? Do you know how

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Speaker 1: how might we see dark matter? I don't know if

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Speaker 1: dark I've heard of it, but I can't confidently see

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Speaker 1: about it. Do you know if it's something we could

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Speaker 1: ever see? Like? Can we see or detect dark matter?

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Speaker 1: One day? Probably? I mean I'm not sure now, but

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Speaker 1: I'm confident that one day we'll all find out what

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Speaker 1: it is and discover many things. Okay, I've heard of

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Speaker 1: the term. I'm not exactly sure. I know it's related

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Speaker 1: to like physics in space. Do you know if dark

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Speaker 1: matter something we can ever see? I can we ever

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Speaker 1: be able to see it or detect it? The name

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Speaker 1: implies that we can't, but I'm sure there are methods too,

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Speaker 1: I mean through like radiation, probably can detect if it's there,

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Speaker 1: but I don't know. Pre too visible to see. All right,

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Speaker 1: a little bit of optimism. Some people have never heard

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Speaker 1: of it, Yeah, some people were a little skeptical. I

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Speaker 1: like the well, it's just a theory, like I could

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Speaker 1: have gotten into a whole discussion there about what is

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Speaker 1: a scientific theory, evolution is a theory, what does theory mean?

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Speaker 1: But I just world have nodded and moved on. There

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Speaker 1: was one interesting answer here, uh that said that, UM,

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Speaker 1: that the answer is no because the name of it

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Speaker 1: implies that we can't see it. That's kind of a

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Speaker 1: pretty metaphysical answer, right, like, if we can't see it

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Speaker 1: one day, do we need to change the name of it? Oh?

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Speaker 1: I see, Well, I think that's a little bit more

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Speaker 1: thought than this person I had given it. Um. I

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Speaker 1: think they were not sure what dark matter was and

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Speaker 1: just trying to sort of grasping for clues about how

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Speaker 1: to answer this question based on the limited information in

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Speaker 1: the question. And uh, I think that's where they were going.

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Speaker 1: But I like, I like the idea that if we

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Speaker 1: see dark matter, we can't call it dark anymore. We

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Speaker 1: have to rename it. And probably you're angling to be

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Speaker 1: on that committee to rename it, because I know you

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Speaker 1: have opinions about how physicists have named things. It's not

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Speaker 1: that I'm angling, I just I just feel like anyone

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Speaker 1: could do a better job. Put that on your application

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Speaker 1: to be on the committee. Man, you guys are terrible.

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Speaker 1: Anybody could do a better job than you. Yeah, for sure,

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Speaker 1: they should put kids in charge of naming things. You know,

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Speaker 1: then we'd be called squishy rainbow matter. Yeah, there you go.

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Speaker 1: It would make a lot more sense and be harder

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Speaker 1: to write grand proposal saying please give us money to

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Speaker 1: see squishy rainbow particles. Right, unless it's also children reviewing

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Speaker 1: the proposals. Sometimes I think it is children reviewing the

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Speaker 1: proposals based on the referee reports. So Dan, it remind

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Speaker 1: us what dark matter is, right, So we don't know

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Speaker 1: what dark matter is, but we know that there's something

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Speaker 1: out there. We know that there's a bunch more stuff

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Speaker 1: in the universe than we can see. And we know

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Speaker 1: this in a few ways, but all of them just

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Speaker 1: use gravity. Gravity is our clue that tells us that

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Speaker 1: there's something us out there that has mass, because remember

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Speaker 1: mass is what creates gravity, a mass and energy. And

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Speaker 1: we have a few clues, like we looked at galaxies

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Speaker 1: and we see that galaxies are spinning really really fast,

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Speaker 1: and there doesn't seem to be enough gravity inside those

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Speaker 1: galaxies just from the stuff we can see, the stars

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Speaker 1: and the dust and stuff to hold those galaxies together.

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Speaker 1: So based on how fast they're spinning, the galaxies should

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Speaker 1: be tearing themselves apart, the stars should be thrown off

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Speaker 1: into interstellar space, but they're not. So people suggested this idea.

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Speaker 1: Maybe there's some invisible matter in there that's creating this

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Speaker 1: gravity to hold the galaxies together. And that's the key.

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Speaker 1: It's invisible. We can't see it, hence the name dark,

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Speaker 1: but it creates the missing gravity. We need to explain

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Speaker 1: how these galaxies are spinning. So they called it matter

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Speaker 1: because it gives gravity. So it's like we we can

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Speaker 1: feel it, but we just can't see it. Like we

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Speaker 1: can see it affecting the orbits of things around it,

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Speaker 1: and we can see it affecting how light moves around

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Speaker 1: it and through it, but we can actually see something

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Speaker 1: there or detect something there through light. That's right. We

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Speaker 1: can't use light to detective because it doesn't seem to

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Speaker 1: interact with light at all. It's invisible, you know, the way,

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Speaker 1: like the air is. You can tell the air is

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Speaker 1: there because it pushes against you, but you can't see it. Right,

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Speaker 1: you'd love to be able to see the air. Imagine

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Speaker 1: you had like glasses that you could see different air

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Speaker 1: currents and stuff like that. The world would look like

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Speaker 1: a crazy place. But we can see it only through gravity.

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Speaker 1: You can tell that it's there through gravity. And the

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Speaker 1: reason that's the problem. It's pull. Yes, we can feel

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Speaker 1: it's pull. And you might think, isn't that enough, Like,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you're getting greedy, Like you can already tell

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Speaker 1: the dark matter is there, why do you need to

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Speaker 1: see it? The thing is that gravity is really really weak.

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Speaker 1: It's the weakest force by huge amount, by millions and

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Speaker 1: millions and millions, and so we can only use gravity

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Speaker 1: to see dark matter when there's a huge amount of it,

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Speaker 1: like galaxy sized blobs of it. So that tells us

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Speaker 1: that it's there, but it doesn't really tell us what's

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Speaker 1: going on where the dark matter is, to see any

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Speaker 1: detail in it, to see this isn't made out of

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Speaker 1: particles or is it made out of something else? Really weird.

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Speaker 1: It's like it's enough to know that it's there and

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Speaker 1: roughly where it is, but nothing else about it. And

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Speaker 1: that's tantalizing, you know, because we want to know what

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Speaker 1: this is made out of and how it works and

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Speaker 1: does it interact and is there complicated stuff going on?

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Speaker 1: But we can't. Right, we're blind because gravity is so weak, right,

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Speaker 1: And and so it doesn't reflect light, like if I

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Speaker 1: shine a light into it, the light it is going

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Speaker 1: to go through, and it doesn't emit any light, Like,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't glow or it doesn't give off its own

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Speaker 1: energy that we can see. And so that's what makes

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Speaker 1: it invisible. That's right. Stars give off lights so we

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Speaker 1: can see them. Planets reflect lights so we can see them.

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Speaker 1: Dark matter doesn't either. It doesn't glow and it doesn't

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Speaker 1: reflect light. Yeah, it's totally invisible to loost. It's like

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Speaker 1: a ghosts ghost, Yeah, exactly. I like how sometimes you

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Speaker 1: say that it should have just been called invisible matter,

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Speaker 1: not dark matter. Yeah. I think probably there was a

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Speaker 1: meeting some somewhere somebody said let's call it invisible matter,

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Speaker 1: and then no, dark matter sounds cooler, and I think

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Speaker 1: dark matter does sound cooler. Honestly, dark implies something mysterious,

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Speaker 1: write something maybe a little sinister. One of my favorite

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Speaker 1: questions I get when we give public lectures is somebody

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Speaker 1: invariably asks, is dark matter like bad matter? Like is

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Speaker 1: it dangerous? You know, because it's an error of like

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Speaker 1: you know, sinisterns or what's the word cynicism sinisterism? Do

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Speaker 1: just call it evil matters? Well, I mean, who wouldn't

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Speaker 1: fund that project? Yeah, it's it's like the dark side

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Speaker 1: of the force, right, you know, it's just there, you go,

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Speaker 1: there's my million bucks boom, just like, Hey, there's evil

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Speaker 1: matter out there. We need to track it down. That's

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Speaker 1: something the current administration would probably go for you. Yeah, alright,

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Speaker 1: So that's what that's what dark matter is. Uh, it's

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Speaker 1: some stuff out there in the universe. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: of it. There's a there's like five times more of

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Speaker 1: it than regular matter. But we can't see it through

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Speaker 1: light or touch it because how we touch things is

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Speaker 1: the through electromagnetic forces, right, that's right. If you want

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Speaker 1: to push on the wall that's next to you, for example,

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Speaker 1: why doesn't your hand go through the wall. It's because

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Speaker 1: your hand is a bunch of molecules, and those molecules

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Speaker 1: are tied together with chemical bonds, which are mostly bonds

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Speaker 1: from electrons, and so though that uses electromagnetism. So your

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Speaker 1: hand is like a like a chain link fence, and

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Speaker 1: the walls like a chain link fence, and those links

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Speaker 1: press against each other. So electromagnetism is the dominant force

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Speaker 1: and how you see things and how you feel things

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Speaker 1: in dark matter just doesn't feel it at all. So

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Speaker 1: it seems kind of unlikely that will ever be able

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Speaker 1: to touch it or see it or know what it

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Speaker 1: is with any kind of resolution. And so let's get

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Speaker 1: into this idea of shaking it, breaking it, and making it.

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Speaker 1: But first let's take a quick break, Okay, Daniels. So

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Speaker 1: dark matter, it doesn't give off light or reflect light,

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Speaker 1: or it doesn't even care about light, and just light

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Speaker 1: just goes through it or magnets. Hey, you don't know that.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's like feeling left out. It's like, hey, this

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Speaker 1: is this LFE part of the universe and all this

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Speaker 1: fun stuff is happening, and we're stuck over here in

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Speaker 1: the dark corner. Maybe we should call it sad matter

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Speaker 1: then depressed matter exactly. But yeah, so but you know,

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Speaker 1: and generally you can't touch up with light, you can't

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Speaker 1: touch it with a magnet, you can't touch it with

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Speaker 1: your finger. Um, but we know it's there because we

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Speaker 1: feel it's gravitational pool. So you're saying that that that

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Speaker 1: gravitational poll is not enough to really study it, to

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Speaker 1: really kind of kind of like run it through your

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Speaker 1: fingers and study what it is and what it's made

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Speaker 1: out of. That's right. The goal is to get a

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Speaker 1: finer grain sense of where it is, like where on

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Speaker 1: Earth is the dark matter? Is it just a big

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Speaker 1: diffuse blob. Is it clumped up somewhere? Is it all

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Speaker 1: gathered in the sun. You know, we'd like to be

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Speaker 1: able to see it much more, a much finer grain resolution,

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Speaker 1: which requires interacting with it more powerfully than gravity can do. Um,

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Speaker 1: that's one thing. And the other thing is we'd like

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Speaker 1: to know what it's made out of, right, like is

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Speaker 1: it made out of particles, it made multiple particles or

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Speaker 1: something else totally different, And that definitely requires seeing it

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Speaker 1: more up close and interacting with it. And so currently

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Speaker 1: the only thing we can do is gravity. And you know,

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Speaker 1: let's start off pessimistically. It might be that dark matter

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Speaker 1: only feels gravity and that's the only force that ever

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Speaker 1: will feel, and that seeing it or touching it or

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Speaker 1: whatever is totally hopeless. But we have no concrete evidence

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Speaker 1: that it has to feel another force. We have some

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Speaker 1: indirect clues from the way things happened in the early universe,

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Speaker 1: but nothing really solid. Well, here's a question then, I mean,

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Speaker 1: we know that dark matter doesn't feel light or electromagnetic forces,

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Speaker 1: and we know it doesn't feel weak forces or strong forces.

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Speaker 1: I know it's because I listened to our podcast episode

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Speaker 1: about dark matter. Um, but um, how do we know

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Speaker 1: it doesn't feel maybe some other forces, some other year

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Speaker 1: to undiscovered forces in the universe. Yes, in fact, we

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Speaker 1: are hoping that it does, right, We are arresting the

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Speaker 1: entire This entire field of searching for dark matter rests

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Speaker 1: on the hope that there is some new kind of force,

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Speaker 1: some way that dark matter interacts with itself and with

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Speaker 1: our kind of matter. So if it only interacts with

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Speaker 1: via gravity, then we're kind of sunk. All we can

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Speaker 1: never do is do observational astronomy and see galaxy sized blobs.

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Speaker 1: But if there is some new force we haven't discovered yet,

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Speaker 1: then maybe it can mediate the interactions between normal particles

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Speaker 1: like electrons and corks and these dark matter particles. So

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Speaker 1: that would be awesome because you could make two discoveries

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Speaker 1: at once. You discover some new force which is huge,

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Speaker 1: and you discover that that new force interacts with dark

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Speaker 1: matter particles, so you discover a new force and a

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Speaker 1: new particle and the same day, like two discoveries for

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Speaker 1: the price of one. Is that possible though? Is it

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Speaker 1: possible that there is another force that we haven't noticed? Oh? Absolutely, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: it's possible. Yeah. I mean we've only studied a tiny

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Speaker 1: fraction of the universe and the interactions between those particles,

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Speaker 1: So it's certainly possible that there are other kinds of

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Speaker 1: interactions that we haven't noticed because the particles were familiar

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Speaker 1: with don't interact that way. Oh I see so, but

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Speaker 1: so then we wouldn't be able to measure this force then,

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00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,359
Speaker 1: exactly so. But it could also be that this force

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Speaker 1: is just very very weak, that it's not very powerful,

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Speaker 1: and so it's hard to detect. But if you have

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Speaker 1: enough clever physicists, they can build a device to suss

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Speaker 1: it out and to notice those tiny little hints that

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Speaker 1: give us the clues that it's there, just like we

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Speaker 1: found neutrinos. Neutrinos are very very difficult to interact with.

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Speaker 1: They only feel the weak nuclear force, but we were

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Speaker 1: able to build detectors that can spot them, so we

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Speaker 1: know that they are there. In the same way, if

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Speaker 1: there's another force that dark matter feels where we're gonna

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Speaker 1: talk about in a minute. Are all the ways that

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Speaker 1: we're trying to reveal dark matters interaction with normal matter

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Speaker 1: through that new force. But if it only feels gravity,

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Speaker 1: don't we have some amazing gravitational wave detectors now, couldn't

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Speaker 1: that may be help us. We do have amazing gravitational

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Speaker 1: wave detectors, but as far as I understand, they don't

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Speaker 1: give us much insight into where the dark matter is

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Speaker 1: because gravitational waves come from like huge accelerating masses like

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Speaker 1: black holes and neutron stars circling each other and eating

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Speaker 1: each other. Dark matter, as far as we know, doesn't

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Speaker 1: do that, and so it doesn't create gravitational waves as

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Speaker 1: far as I know. But you know, there could be

425
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,280
Speaker 1: black holes made of dark matter. I guess that are

426
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 1: doing that, but it wouldn't necessarily give us insight into

427
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,680
Speaker 1: the dark matter itself. But wait, would those be dark

428
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 1: black holes or black dark holes? I don't know. Um,

429
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 1: that's your responsibility since you're being nominated to the Physics

430
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,080
Speaker 1: Naming Committee, But I'm pretty sure that every black hole

431
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,199
Speaker 1: has to have some dark matter in it, because remember,

432
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 1: eight of the matter in the universe is dark matter.

433
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,520
Speaker 1: So if you're a black hole, you're just indiscriminately sucking

434
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 1: up matter and you're definitely gonna hoover up some dark matter.

435
00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:58,919
Speaker 1: So it seems like a pretty hard problem. And so

436
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,159
Speaker 1: break it down for us den. What are some of

437
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 1: the different options for studying dark matter? Alright? So number

438
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 1: one is shake it. And the idea here is, let's

439
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 1: build a really big tank a very quiet liquid. By quiet,

440
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,159
Speaker 1: we mean liquid that doesn't interact very much, mostly just

441
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 1: sits there. And we put this tank really far underground,

442
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 1: so the cosmic rays and other particles from space don't

443
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 1: interact with it very much. And then you just wait.

444
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,439
Speaker 1: You wait for one of those particles to shake. The

445
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,680
Speaker 1: idea is that maybe a dark matter particle, which should

446
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,920
Speaker 1: have no trouble penetrating through the ground and getting all

447
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 1: the way underground into your your vat of liquid, will

448
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,919
Speaker 1: bump using this new force, will bump into one of

449
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 1: these molecules and shake it a little bit. And when

450
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,159
Speaker 1: you spot that, you can say, ah, maybe that was

451
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 1: dark matter. Oh I see, so you're not shaking the

452
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,920
Speaker 1: dark matter. You're just waiting for dark matter to shake

453
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 1: something else. That's right. We're hoping that dark matter flies

454
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 1: down and then occasionally bumps into one of these it's

455
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 1: usually liquid xenon atoms, and then we can see that

456
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 1: atom shaking, so we you know that that's where the

457
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,719
Speaker 1: force comes in. Gravity isn't enough for that to happen.

458
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 1: But if dark matter has this new force, it could

459
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 1: give a little bump to one of these xenon atoms,

460
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,439
Speaker 1: and by seeing them get bumped, then we could deduce

461
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,120
Speaker 1: that maybe it's dark matter. So the theory is that

462
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:19,360
Speaker 1: maybe dark matter feels does feel more than just gravity,

463
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 1: like maybe it feels us some kind of other force.

464
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,439
Speaker 1: But it's so weak that you really would have to

465
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 1: isolate everything else just to maybe every once in a

466
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,680
Speaker 1: while feel that force from dark matter. It's like you're

467
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,880
Speaker 1: listening for the tiniest little whisper. Right, you don't want

468
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 1: to do that in a crowded stadium or in a bar.

469
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 1: You want to go to a place where there's nothing

470
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 1: going on, so you can really crank up they gain

471
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 1: on your on your microphone and listen for that little whisper.

472
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 1: So we go deep, deep underground to look for these

473
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,919
Speaker 1: little particle whispers because they're probably drowned out. I mean,

474
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 1: if dark matter is around, then it may be interacting

475
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:57,919
Speaker 1: with us all the time, right, giving little shakes, But

476
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,159
Speaker 1: you can't tell because there's particles everywhere giving shakes, but

477
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 1: deep down underground, most of those particles are filtered out.

478
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,640
Speaker 1: And you put a really quiet liquid there, and then

479
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 1: you hope that dark matter hits it, and you know,

480
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 1: you might be thinking, well, how can you tell it

481
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,919
Speaker 1: was dark matter not something else? Right? What they've come

482
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 1: up with really clever ways to distinguish between dark matter

483
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 1: hitting it and like a gamma ray hitting it or

484
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:25,400
Speaker 1: nuclear radioactive decay hitting it, because dark matter is probably

485
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 1: heavier than like electrons, and and because different kind of

486
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,160
Speaker 1: recoil than a gamma ray. So they have all these

487
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 1: really clever details about ways to see it, and that

488
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 1: make it more likely to tell if it's dark matter

489
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 1: or not. But you can never be for sure. You

490
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 1: can never be sure that one of these wiggles is

491
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 1: exactly dark matter. Okay, so that's pretty good. Is that

492
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 1: an actual like physics position, like particle whisperer, But it

493
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 1: should be. It should be again, when you're on the

494
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 1: naming committee, you can rename these titles anything you like.

495
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 1: You know, throw a professor and come in with particle whisper.

496
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,120
Speaker 1: But the key is the key is that I don't

497
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:05,120
Speaker 1: think anybody would really conclusively accept the discovery of dark

498
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 1: matter just from that kind of experiment. And that's why

499
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,640
Speaker 1: we have three prongs of this search. We have um,

500
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,680
Speaker 1: shake it, break it, and make it, because if dark

501
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 1: matter does exist and it does feel this new force,

502
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 1: we would expect to see it in all three prongs,

503
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: and that would really be more conclusive. Why don't you

504
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 1: think people would not believe it? It's a hard experiment

505
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 1: to do, and the kind of signal we're looking for

506
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: is like one or two shakes over a year of running.

507
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:33,719
Speaker 1: And then you have to really have a lot of

508
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 1: confidence that these folks know what other kind of things

509
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 1: might shake those molecules at the same level, Um, that

510
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: they've really done everything carefully. You know, it's not as

511
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 1: like direct as you'd like. You'd like to like hold

512
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: the dark matter particle and say here it is, everybody,

513
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,199
Speaker 1: come and look at it. We found it, right, But

514
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 1: instead you're you're noticing it bumps somebody, and that's still

515
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 1: a bit indirect. I mean, it's more direct than gravity

516
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 1: because you're talking about the interaction with a particle, but

517
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,440
Speaker 1: you're not left with it. You haven't to create intergator

518
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,360
Speaker 1: been able to study it. Well, I remember our conversation

519
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: about the sky being blue. That you know, things have

520
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 1: to be kind of around the same size or the

521
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,919
Speaker 1: same frequency for them to interact. Is it possible that

522
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 1: maybe dark matter is just like at a different frequency

523
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 1: or wavelength. It's certainly is possible, right, It's possible that

524
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,919
Speaker 1: dark matter fields forces and those forces don't interact with

525
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 1: our matter at all. Right, it's certainly possible. Um. And

526
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 1: these detectors are sensitive to dark matter of certain masses, right,

527
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 1: usually between like a few giga electron volts and a

528
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 1: hundred giga electron bolts. And they're sensitive to those masses

529
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 1: because those are the masses that are going to make

530
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 1: the particles shake the way they're expecting. If the masses

531
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,919
Speaker 1: are much much smaller or much much heavier than the

532
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: shake is going to be different and they might not

533
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: spot it. So yeah, these have windows where they can

534
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 1: see it. And again that's why we have different approaches,

535
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: so we can try to cover all the blind spots. Okay,

536
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: so that's option number one in our infomercial offering is

537
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 1: listening to dark matter whispers at the dark whispers that's right,

538
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 1: And see if it maybe bumps a particle in a really,

539
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 1: really really quiet environment. But that one is a little

540
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,880
Speaker 1: suspicious because it's so hard, and but you're saying there's

541
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 1: a second option, which is to break it, break dark matter.

542
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 1: That's right. Um, if you imagine this the interaction we

543
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,360
Speaker 1: talked about a moment ago shaking it, that's one dark

544
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 1: matter particle comes in and a normal matter particle comes in,

545
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: like xenon, and then both those come out. Xenon comes

546
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 1: out and dark batter comes out. Can sort of rotate

547
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 1: that ninety degrees in your head and say, well, if

548
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: that can happen, then maybe it's possible for two dark

549
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: matter particles to bump into each other, annihilate using the

550
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,959
Speaker 1: same force, and turn into normal matter particles quarks for example,

551
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 1: which is what makes a zenon. And so it's the

552
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,959
Speaker 1: same interaction, right, it's dark matter interacting with quarks um,

553
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: but instead of dark matter bouncing off of corks, it's

554
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 1: dark matter annihilates itself and turns into corks. Oh, because

555
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: dark matter, if it's in our universe, it's stuff. And

556
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 1: if it's stuff, then it can turn into energy, which

557
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: can then turn into other things. That's right, And only

558
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 1: if there's this particular force, this force that can that

559
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 1: can touch normal matter and can touch dark matter, then

560
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 1: dark matter can annihilate. It turns into the particle that

561
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 1: mediates this new force, and that particle that mediates this

562
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: new force can also touch normal matter, right, and so

563
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 1: we can turn into normal matter. That's the idea. It

564
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: would have to be a new kind of force, or

565
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: it could like the weak force or one of these

566
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: forces do that. We thought for a while the weak

567
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 1: force might be able to do that, and maybe dark

568
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 1: matter felt the weak force like neutrinos, but we pretty

569
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 1: much ruled that out because if that had happened, we

570
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 1: would have seen it already. Our detectors are powerful enough

571
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 1: to see dark matter interacting via the weak force, and

572
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 1: it hasn't. So it have to be a new force.

573
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 1: But you're saying, but we don't really know what dark

574
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: matter is, So how can we be so confident that

575
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: we haven't seen it this way? We don't know what

576
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: dark matter is, and so we are not confident in

577
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 1: basically anything. But all we can do is what we

578
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 1: can do, and we can say, well, what if dark

579
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 1: matter is a particle, and what if it interacts with

580
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: normal matter? What would that look like. Okay, let's go

581
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 1: look for that and if we find it, awesome. If

582
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: we don't find it, then there's a lot of things

583
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: that we might wonder about, like, well, maybe it's not

584
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: a particle, or maybe it doesn't interact with via this

585
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: new force, or maybe we built this thing wrong. Right,

586
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: So negative results are less powerful than positive results, for sure,

587
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 1: But you can only do what you can do right.

588
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 1: And in science we do this a lot. We say,

589
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: we don't know how to solve this problem. Let's start

590
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 1: simple and see if that works. Let's imagine it's a

591
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: unicorn and see if we see any rainbows. That's right.

592
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 1: And so you might be wondering like, well, how do

593
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: you make dark matter collide into other dark matter? And

594
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: the way you do it is that you just look

595
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 1: for places where there's a lot of dark matter. And

596
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 1: we think that dark matters clumped at the center of

597
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: the galaxy, like close to that black hole that's the

598
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: biggest blob of dark matter. So what we do is

599
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: we point our space telescopes at the center of the

600
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: galaxy and we wait and we hope to see like

601
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: a flash of light from the center of the galaxy

602
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: that's of a particular energy that would tell us that

603
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: dark matter collided and created normal matter. It's a really

604
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: hard thing to do. Yeah, it seems like a really

605
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 1: wishful thinking, or you know, like you're reaching a little bit.

606
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: It is, but you know, there was a moment when

607
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: we thought we saw a signal a few years ago.

608
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 1: We had the data from this telescope. And if dark

609
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 1: matter exists and it can do this and it happens,

610
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: then you would expect that all the particles that come

611
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 1: from the center of the galaxy would have a particular energy,

612
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: and that energy would tell you what the mass of

613
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 1: the particle was. So you'll be looking for like a

614
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: peak over a spectrum. And there was a guy in

615
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: the Germany who looked at the data and he saw

616
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 1: this big peak in the spectrum and every thought, oh

617
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 1: my gosh, maybe he discovered dark matter. Then it turned

618
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: out no, really, so um it would it would happen

619
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 1: in a big flash that's brightened us for us to see.

620
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: It's not one big flash. It's a slow accumulu lation

621
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 1: of data. It's like great build up years and years

622
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 1: of information and then maybe you see a bunch of

623
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: of um. You see a bunch of these things all

624
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 1: the same energy, and that tells you that maybe there's

625
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 1: something else going on here, some process that's happening in

626
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 1: the center of the galaxy that's producing these particles at

627
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: all the same energy, and that gives you a clue

628
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 1: as to what the dark matter is. And again, on

629
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 1: its own, not that convincing. But if you see that

630
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 1: and you see something in these underground detectors and the

631
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: two are consistent, you're like, oh, look, maybe these two

632
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 1: things are telling us the same story from a different

633
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: point of view. Then you start to build up a

634
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 1: credible story. All right. But then and now there's even

635
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,479
Speaker 1: um a third option to study dark matter, right, that's right,

636
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: And this is my favorite because of the one that

637
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 1: I personally work on, and that's making dark matter. I

638
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 1: feel like, if we're going to believe the dark matters

639
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 1: of particle, we got to be able to create it.

640
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: We've got to be able to like make it in

641
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: the lab and play with it and study it. So

642
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: that's what we're trying to do at the large hair

643
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: Dum Collier. You laugh, You think that's ridiculous. Wow. We

644
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: just talked a little bit earlier about scientists making things

645
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: and playing with things that they don't fully understand. Yeah, exactly,

646
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 1: that's how we understand them. Right, you know, what is

647
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 1: this thing? I don't know? Let's make a pile of

648
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 1: it and poke it and see what happens. That's not

649
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: a grand plan to take over the world. It's not

650
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 1: like here, I'm going to become the dictator of the

651
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 1: Earth by making dark matter. Right, dark matter is not dangerous.

652
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: It's like it's even difficulty to spot, to to interact with. Right,

653
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 1: it's not going to hurt anybody. We just like want

654
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 1: to create some of us so we can see what

655
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 1: it's like. Is that so wrong? Uh? Well, I'll let

656
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: you know, of you guys the story of the Earth.

657
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 1: I'll let you know if that was a good idea

658
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 1: or not. Drop me a line. But then on my tombstone?

659
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 1: Was that so wrong? In your tombstone? Inside the dark

660
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 1: matter black hole? Okay, that sounds good. Dark matter black holes.

661
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 1: There's a start of idea. One million bucks. Please, Well,

662
00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:11,359
Speaker 1: this is a perfect point to take a break. You're

663
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 1: saying another way to study dark matter is to make

664
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 1: it to like created out of nothing. Yes, not out

665
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: of nothing. So imagine think about the process we just

666
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 1: talked about in the Galactic Center. We're talking about dark

667
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: matter annihilating it to some particle and that particle turning

668
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 1: into quarks. Well, if that can happen, then the reverse

669
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 1: can happen. That is, quarks should be able to annihilate

670
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: turn into some new force particle, and that new force

671
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 1: particles should be able to turn into dark matter. So

672
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: we should be able to smash corks together and create

673
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: dark matter. And that's coincidentally exactly what we're doing at

674
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: the Large Hadron Collider. We smash quarks in the form

675
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,320
Speaker 1: of bags that we call protons together it's super high speeds,

676
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,759
Speaker 1: and try to create new kinds of matter. But again,

677
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,919
Speaker 1: that assumes that you have this magical force that helps

678
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:02,280
Speaker 1: you go between the two worlds kind of right, Yes, exactly,

679
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 1: we have to assume that it's it's there to look

680
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 1: for it, right. It's like you're saying, like, well, you

681
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: went hunting for unicorns in the forest, and you're assuming

682
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 1: the unicorns exist, Well, you know, we're out there looking

683
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 1: for them, like we'll see. Right. It is that kind

684
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: of similar, right, Like yeah, yeah, sure. But you know,

685
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 1: if you go out looking for unicorns and you find

686
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 1: something else crazy instead, you still call it a success. Right,

687
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 1: But you have to have something to look for, and

688
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,919
Speaker 1: this in particular, like you know, we believe dark matter

689
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: is there. Of all the crazy things we look for

690
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: at the Large Header and Collider, most of them we

691
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 1: have no clue that exists. Supersymmetry and large extra dimensions

692
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,319
Speaker 1: and all this other crazy stuff. We have no real

693
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,320
Speaker 1: clue that it's even real. Dark matter, we know is

694
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,879
Speaker 1: a thing. It's out there. It's part of the universe. Man,

695
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,839
Speaker 1: It's like it's an important element in the matter pie.

696
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: So at the Large Hadron Collider and we smash particles together,

697
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 1: we make everything that can be made. So if dark

698
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,279
Speaker 1: matter exists and it can be made, then eventually we'll

699
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:00,800
Speaker 1: make it, and we to be able to find it

700
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 1: in the remnants of some of those collisions. Right. And

701
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 1: the interesting thing is that it's not like you make

702
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 1: it and then you hold it in your hand and say,

703
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 1: hey see I made it. It's more like you made it.

704
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 1: That is my particular fantasy. But you're right, well, technically

705
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 1: you do have some dark matter in your hand already. Right,

706
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 1: that's right. But you can't hold it because it passes

707
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: through you, because it doesn't interact with you. But you're right,

708
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 1: go ahead. You can't just make it and hold it. Yeah, yeah,

709
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,320
Speaker 1: I think the the idea is that you make it

710
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 1: and you um, and you know that you made it

711
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 1: because some energy disappeared and you can't account for it. Exactly.

712
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: The problem with making dark matter is that we can't

713
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:37,919
Speaker 1: and then see the dark matter. It's like, hey, look,

714
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 1: I here's my Science Fair project. I made an invisible man.

715
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 1: You can't touch. Where is he? I don't know. Um,

716
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 1: it's not that convinced. I made your lasagna, but it

717
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 1: disappeared after I made it. But hey, the effort is

718
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 1: what counts, right, honey, here's your invisible Mother's Day present. Um, exactly,

719
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: I didn't forget. It's just invisible. It's extra impressive. Um.

720
00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: That's exactly the problem. But as you say, we can

721
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 1: do the presence of invisible things because we know some

722
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,320
Speaker 1: things about how these collisions work, and in particular, we

723
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 1: know that momentum is conserved, meaning you have momentum coming

724
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 1: into the collision. All that same momentum has to come

725
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: out of the collision. So if you add up all

726
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:16,280
Speaker 1: the stuff that you saw come out of the collision,

727
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 1: and we're pretty good at capturing things, and something is missing,

728
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 1: it doesn't add up. Then you know something disappeared, something invisible.

729
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: So we can tell them when we make invisible stuff

730
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 1: at the colliders, and in fact we do this all

731
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 1: the time. We can't see neutrinos either, and all the

732
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 1: time we do this interaction where quarks annihilate and then

733
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 1: they turn into a pair of neutrinos, which just basically

734
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: look invisible. So we we can do this, We've measured this,

735
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 1: we can see it's happening. The question is is it

736
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 1: also making dark matter? So that's what we're doing. We're

737
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: trying to tell like is it just making neutrinos or

738
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 1: is it making neutrinos and dark matter? All right, So

739
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 1: those are the three ways in which we might see

740
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 1: dark batter um again just to recab. One of them

741
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 1: is to listen for it really really quietly. The other

742
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 1: one is to see try to look for places where

743
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 1: it's crashing into itself. And the other one is to

744
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 1: try to make it here on Earth. That's right, with

745
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: a million dollars, that's right, exactly so we have those

746
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 1: three ways, and you know, we've been doing this for

747
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: a while, and at first we were sort of just

748
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 1: playing around with like could we even see dark matter

749
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 1: and the collider, could you look at the center of

750
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 1: the galaxy. And people spend a lot of time refining

751
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: these techniques and making them more and more powerful, and

752
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 1: at the same time, we have predictions. We have like

753
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 1: clues from the early universe, that's say, dark matter is

754
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 1: definitely there, and and these clues from the early universe

755
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 1: tell us that probably dark matter came into equilibrium with

756
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: normal matter, and that means that it's like the energy

757
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 1: has sort of like smoothed out, and for that to happen,

758
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 1: it has to be able to interact. So we suspect

759
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 1: that there's some way for dark matter to interact with

760
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 1: normal matter, but it's very indirect clue, and we just

761
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 1: don't know how what that is. So we're hoping that

762
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 1: we'll be able to see it in one of these experiments,

763
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 1: and that india clue suggests that the experiments that we're

764
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 1: doing now in the next few years should be able

765
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:10,879
Speaker 1: to see dark matter interact with interacting with normal matter

766
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 1: at the level necessary to explain that equilibrium. So it's

767
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 1: an exciting moment in the search for dark matter. Can

768
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:18,919
Speaker 1: you explain what that a clear remans? So you're saying

769
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 1: that that you have some sort of feeling that it

770
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 1: does feel a special force that we haven't discovered yet

771
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 1: because because there's evidence that it has interacted with matter

772
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 1: in this way. That's right. We can sort of trace

773
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: back the history of the universe and the very beginning

774
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 1: of the universe just after the Big Bang there was

775
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 1: a bunch of matter created, some matter, some some normal

776
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,320
Speaker 1: matter or some dark matter, right, and then the universe

777
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 1: expanded and cooled. Right at some point, the universe cools

778
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 1: enough that certain kind of interactions can't happen anymore. So

779
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 1: that's what we call that freeze out because it's not

780
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 1: hot enough to like make certain things happen anymore. Since

781
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: the freeze out moment is less interaction between normal matter

782
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 1: are in dark matter, we think, right, So we think

783
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 1: that before that they were sort of mixing and playing

784
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 1: along and interacting, and then the universe cooled down and

785
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 1: is less interaction. And we can do those calculations and

786
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 1: we could say if there was interaction and things were

787
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 1: you know, getting into equilibrium and bouncing off each other.

788
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 1: That changes how much dark matter is left in the universe.

789
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 1: So we call this a relic density. So the amount

790
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 1: of dark matter in the universe now depends on how

791
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 1: much it was interacting with normal matter in the early universe,

792
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: because that changes like how much is made when when

793
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 1: normal matter turns into dark matter, or how much disappears

794
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 1: when dark matter interacts with itself and turns into normal matter.

795
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 1: And so the amount of dark matter we see in

796
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 1: the universe now tells us that there was very likely

797
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,919
Speaker 1: interactions in the early universe. I think what you're saying

798
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 1: is that, um, you know, the universe right now only

799
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: makes sense from what we know of it. If there

800
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 1: is some sort of interaction between dark matter and regular matter. Yes, yes, exactly, Okay,

801
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 1: But if it turns out that there isn't this special

802
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 1: magical unicorn force, then we're sort of toast right like

803
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,879
Speaker 1: there's then there's really no way for us to really

804
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 1: study dark matter. It would be much much harder, and

805
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 1: all we can do in that case is lean on gravity,

806
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 1: and we're pressing that pretty hard. You know. We're looking

807
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 1: at galaxies and how they rotate, but we're also looking

808
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,320
Speaker 1: at gravitational lensing, we're looking at collisions. We're doing everything

809
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 1: we can to try to use the gravitational information, but

810
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 1: it's pretty limited. Gravity is a weak force and it

811
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 1: doesn't capture a lot of information. So it would be

812
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,399
Speaker 1: a bit of a tragedy if dark matter doesn't feel

813
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 1: anything but gravity, it would make it really hard to

814
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 1: ever discover. Is it made of particles, is it made

815
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 1: it something else? Is it made of the unic horns?

816
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: You know, it would be it would be a sad

817
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: day if we discovered that. So that's that's amazing. It

818
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:46,800
Speaker 1: could be that will never ever in the history of

819
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 1: humanity until the end of the universe know what this

820
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 1: thing is. You sort of sound like you're rooting for

821
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: that outcome, not either outcome. Are you playing that playing

822
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 1: on the tragic arc here? I'm not taking sides between

823
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 1: the dark side on the light side. I'm just saying

824
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 1: that that that is a distinct possibility, and it's interesting

825
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 1: to think about, isn't it to know that maybe there

826
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 1: are mysteries will never know the answer to. I'm sure

827
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 1: there are mysteries we never know the answer to, and

828
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 1: probably the greatest mysteries we don't even know to ask, right,

829
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 1: we're that clueless when it comes to the nature of

830
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,320
Speaker 1: the universe. This is a mystery that we've recently stumbled on,

831
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,240
Speaker 1: that we've discovered that this huge parts of the universe

832
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:25,800
Speaker 1: we don't understand. In fact, most of it the biggest

833
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 1: slice of the pie. So we should even be grateful

834
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 1: that we know it exists. And now we're getting greedy.

835
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:32,320
Speaker 1: We don't want to know everything about it, right, But

836
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 1: you're right, it could be that we never know anything

837
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 1: more than that it's there and that it has gravity

838
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: and it plays a role in how things clump. All right.

839
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 1: So that's the answer to the question can we ever

840
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 1: see dark matter? And the answer is stay tuned, right,

841
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:47,440
Speaker 1: Maybe we'll see it, maybe we won't. The answer is

842
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 1: keep funding particle physics. The answer is San Daniel a

843
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 1: million dollars. That's the answer to every question, isn't it sure? Yeah?

844
00:42:56,280 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 1: What did you have for breakfast? I don't know. I

845
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:05,239
Speaker 1: sent Daniel million bucks and I'm still waiting for my eggs, Benedict, Hey,

846
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 1: startups don't offer a quick return, okay, right? Right? Or

847
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 1: breakfast or breakfast not usually? All right? Well, thanks for

848
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 1: joining us. I hope you enjoyed that discussion, and next

849
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 1: time you look out there into the universe, I know

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00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 1: that they're you are bathing in dark matter, but that

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00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: we may never or possibly soon be able to see it.

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00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 1: That's right, Mysteries the Universe potentially revealed tomorrow on our

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00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 1: net next podcast. Stay tuned, all right, see you next time.

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00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:48,240
Speaker 1: Thanks for tuning in. If you still have a question

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00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 1: after listening to all these explanations, please drop us a line.

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00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. You can find us

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00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 1: at Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at Daniel and Jorge That's

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00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 1: one word, or email us at back at Daniel and

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00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 1: Jorge dot com. Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel

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00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 1: and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of I

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00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. For more podcast for my Heart Radio, visit

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00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

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00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:20,839
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows. Yeah,