1 00:00:01,160 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: Soldiers, sailors, and airmen of the Allied Expeditionary Force. You 2 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: are about to embark upon the great crusade toward which 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 1: we have striven these many months. The eyes of the 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: world are upon you. The hopes and prayers of liberty 5 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: loving people everywhere march with you, in company with our 6 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:24,119 Speaker 1: brave allies and brothers in arms on other fronts. You 7 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: will bring about the destruction of the German war machine, 8 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: the elimination of NA, security over the obtested peoples of Europe, 9 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: and security for ourselves in a free world. Your task 10 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: will not be an easy one. Your enemy is well trained, 11 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: well equipped, and battle hardened. He will fight savages. But 12 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: this is the year nineteen forty four. Much has happened 13 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: since the Nazi triumphs of nineteen forty forty one. The 14 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: United Nations have inflicted upon the Germans great defeat in 15 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: open battle manned man. Our air offenses have seriously reduced 16 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: their strength in the air and their capacity to wage 17 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 1: war on the ground. Our home front have given us 18 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: an overwhelming superiority in weapons and munitions of war, and 19 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: police at our disposal great reserves of trained fighting men. 20 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: The tide has turned the freemen of the world are 21 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 1: marching together to victory. I have food, competence in your courage, 22 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: devotion to duty and skill in battle. We will accept 23 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: nothing less than full victory. Good luck, and let us 24 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: all beseech the blessing of almighty Gods upon this break 25 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 1: and noble undertaking. 26 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 2: Um by alive sources, of course, says that heavy fighting 27 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 2: is a ten place between the Germans and Atration forces 28 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 2: on the Normandy Peninsula, about thirty one miles southwest of Lahabra. 29 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 2: Another bulletin, also from burrowin radio and unconfirmed, says the 30 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 2: pretties American landing operations against the western coast of Europe 31 00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 2: from the sea and from the air are stretching over 32 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 2: the entire area between Cherbourg and Lahoudru. 33 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 3: I just thought of about fifty miles on. 34 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 4: This episode of Newts World eighty years ago today. On 35 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 4: June sixth, nineteen forty four, General Dwight David Eisenhower addressed 36 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 4: the thousands of American troops preparing to invade Normandy, encouraging 37 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 4: them to embrace the great crusade they faced. Then, in 38 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 4: a brief moment alone, he drafted a resignation letter in 39 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 4: case the invasion failed. He wanted people to know that 40 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 4: it was his responsibility and not the responsibility of the 41 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 4: thousands of young men and women that he was throwing 42 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 4: at Nazi Germany. In his new book, The Light of Battle, 43 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 4: Michelle Parodies brings Droit Eisenower to life as he learns 44 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 4: to navigate the cross currents of diplomacy, politics, strategy, family 45 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 4: and fame, with the fate of the free world hanging 46 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 4: in the balance. In a world of giants, Churchill Roosevelt, 47 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 4: de Gaul Marshall MacArthur. It was a barefoot boy from Abilene, 48 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 4: Kansas who had mastered the art of power and become 49 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 4: a modern day George Washington. Parodies reveals how Eisenhower's rise 50 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 4: both reflected and was integral to America's rise as a 51 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 4: global superpower. Here to talk about his new book and 52 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 4: the eightieth anniversary of D Day, I'm really pleased to 53 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 4: welcome my guest, Michelle Parodies. He's a leading human rights lawyer, historian, 54 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 4: national security law scholar, and most recently the author of 55 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 4: the critically acclaimed Last Mission to Tokyo. He's a partner 56 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 4: at the international law firm Curtis Malay Provost and a 57 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 4: lecturer at Columbia Law School. Michelle, Welcome and thank you 58 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 4: for joining me on Newsworld. 59 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me on. 60 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:19,799 Speaker 4: You know, this is the eightieth anniversary of an extraordinary 61 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 4: moment when so many landed both by air by sea, 62 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 4: and it hung in the balance. It could have collapsed. 63 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:33,159 Speaker 4: But I'm curious what led you to decide to focus 64 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 4: on Eisenhower. 65 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 6: I think the thing that fascinated me the most about 66 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 6: Dwight Eisenhower was the fact that here you have someone 67 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 6: who is probably one of the most powerful generals in 68 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 6: all of human history, who was raised by religious pacifists 69 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 6: in a rural town in Kansas. He from a very 70 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 6: young age from boyhood, wants to be a general, but, 71 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 6: confronted with the fact that he may not be commissioned 72 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 6: in the army, looks to a backup plan of becoming 73 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 6: a gaucho in Argentina. He is warned, and this is 74 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 6: something I discovered in the course of researching this book. 75 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 6: He has warned in a classified briefing that the Nazis 76 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 6: are not only developing nuclear weapons, but are potentially going 77 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 6: to deploy them against the invasion troops on D Day. 78 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 6: But he's told there's basically nothing he can do about it, 79 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 6: and he can't even really tell anyone about it, and 80 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 6: so he focuses on the things that he can get 81 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 6: some control over, such as the weather. And he's just 82 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 6: such a fascinating figure. He's just as complex as human 83 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 6: and in some ways as contradictory as America itself. And 84 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 6: how could you not be interested, right, how could you 85 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 6: not want to write about someone like that. 86 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 4: My wife Caloster, who's from a small town Whitehall, Wisconsin, 87 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:58,919 Speaker 4: was fascinated because there's an even smaller town nearby called 88 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 4: Pigeon Falls, and it actually has Reynolds Toompter, who at 89 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 4: one hundred and seven years of age, has gone to 90 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 4: Normandy this year. He's at Normandy one of the great 91 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 4: moments of his life. He was the oldest surviving member 92 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 4: of the Merchant Marine and that was his background. And 93 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 4: of course the Merchant Marine played a huge role in 94 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 4: making sure we had enough equipment, enough people to Britain, 95 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 4: and enough food for Britain to survive. But it really 96 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 4: brought home how every single town in America had somebody 97 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 4: involved in World War Two, and in that sense, Eisenhower emerged, 98 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 4: I think as the quintessential American as somebody who somehow 99 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:44,280 Speaker 4: represented the common sense and the decency sort of call 100 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 4: me Ike. And yet at the same time, he clearly 101 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:49,720 Speaker 4: understood power, and he clearly understood that he was a 102 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 4: five star general. So he played both roles at the 103 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 4: same time. 104 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 6: He did, and I would say he understood as well 105 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 6: that in order to wield power, as much power as 106 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 6: he had at his disposal, and in order to wield 107 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 6: that power effectively, it was all the more important for 108 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 6: him to not forget where he was from, to maintain 109 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 6: that common touch, and particularly to maintain and always show 110 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 6: that famous Eisenhower smile. I think it was Omar Bradley 111 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 6: who said Eisenhower smiles worth ten divisions, and I think 112 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:25,679 Speaker 6: that's exactly right, because he had the ability to connect 113 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 6: with people at a human level and understand really, you know, 114 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 6: because fundamentally, I think he was just a very serious person. 115 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 6: He understood the weight that was on his shoulders. He 116 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 6: bore that weight, but he never let it stop him 117 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 6: from doing what needed to get done as well. Right, 118 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 6: He could also, you know, if you pardon the expression, 119 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 6: could be a bit ruthless as well, and he knew 120 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:49,679 Speaker 6: what had to get done because he was always focused 121 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 6: on a mission ultimately larger than himself. And that sort 122 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 6: of strength of character in that humility, combined with a 123 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 6: real desire to to make real change in the world, 124 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 6: not just to put more pretty ribbons on his chest 125 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 6: or become a famous celebrity in his own right, but 126 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 6: to really make meaningful change and lasting change in the 127 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 6: world that. 128 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 5: Would affect people. It's probably both again an amazing testament 129 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 5: to his character. 130 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 6: But I also I think, as you said, you know 131 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 6: something fundamentally and almost quintessentially American in its outlook. 132 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 4: Years ago I spent time reading Eisenhower's papers because I 133 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 4: wanted to understand how his mind worked and how he wrote, 134 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 4: and how he put things together. And he has this 135 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 4: real knack of boiling things down and ultimately got into 136 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 4: how to saying you wanted all decision papers to be 137 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 4: one page, that you had the job of figuring out 138 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 4: exactly what was at stake and what the pro and 139 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 4: con was, and he didn't want you to turn that 140 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 4: over and make that his job. His job was to 141 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 4: then decide. At the same time, I think behind the 142 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 4: smile he was amazingly smarter. It reminds me a little 143 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 4: bit of Reagan and the desire to be under estimated. 144 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 4: That he was quite happy if you thought he was 145 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,199 Speaker 4: easy to take. Somebody who wrote a paper of years 146 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 4: later when the Liberals wah I had contempt for him, 147 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 4: et cetera, and they pointed out that in the thirties, 148 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 4: on a very limited salary of an army officer, that 149 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 4: Eisenhower played bridge and consistently won. And they said, this 150 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 4: is not the guy you think. He is much more 151 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 4: there when you look at Normandy itself. Because this is 152 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 4: the eightieth anniversary, what comes to mind? What is it 153 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:34,959 Speaker 4: you wish people understood about why D Day the sixth 154 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 4: of June matters. 155 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 5: I would say two things. 156 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 6: The one thing is that I think most people forget 157 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,679 Speaker 6: how improbable it was and how close to failure it 158 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 6: was at so many different moments, in so many different ways. 159 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,959 Speaker 6: Even a month before the invasion, Eisenhower's chief of staff 160 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 6: in Europe, Walter Bedell Smith Beatle Smith, gave the odds 161 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 6: of success at fifty to fifty, which meant that the 162 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 6: odds of failure. 163 00:09:58,200 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 5: Were also fifty to fifty. 164 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 6: And it was a tremendous gamble that took an incredible 165 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,439 Speaker 6: amount of strain. Aisther how I think, gets up to 166 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 6: about three packs of cigarettes a day by the time 167 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 6: D Day launches, just under the strain of all the 168 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 6: moving parts that he has to keep in place to 169 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 6: make it all happen. So that's one thing is that 170 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 6: just how difficult it was was not just what those men, 171 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 6: those brave men who were gunned down on places like 172 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 6: Omaha Beach confronted. It was so improbable. You had almost 173 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 6: two million people, in one way or another contributing to 174 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 6: this effort that at any moment could have failed. So 175 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 6: I think that's one thing, is to remember how close 176 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 6: we came to losing, and just as important is how 177 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:45,679 Speaker 6: important it was that we won. And I think that's 178 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 6: also the very important legacy that D Day fits in 179 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 6: the American story, you know, much like Lexington and Conquered. 180 00:10:55,160 --> 00:11:00,439 Speaker 6: It's this pivotal moment where the United States changes after that. 181 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 6: Prior to the D Day invasion, the United States was 182 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 6: an increasingly large economy but an untested and unproven military. Certainly, 183 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 6: for the first two years of the war, the British 184 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 6: were often described as the senior partner in the Atlantic relationship. 185 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 5: And that made a lot of sense. 186 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:20,319 Speaker 6: The British Empire was a quarter of the world, covered 187 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 6: about fifth of the world's surface, The Royal Navy was 188 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 6: in every ocean, had a port on every continent. And 189 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 6: the United States was a deeply divided, highly fractious collection 190 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 6: of forty eight states that had gone to war with 191 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 6: one another not all that long ago, and there was 192 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 6: a real question about whether it could muster all of 193 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 6: that energy into being a nation state, a superpower on 194 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 6: the world stage. And ultimately, the Day Invasion is that 195 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:55,079 Speaker 6: moment because it is the first American led operation of 196 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 6: the war of sort of major significance. It's the first 197 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 6: time America is directing the strategic direction of the European 198 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 6: War over the sort of British preferences, particularly to continue 199 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 6: operations in the Mediterranean, and it is done through almost 200 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 6: a quintessentially American view of how this new post war 201 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 6: world should be conducted. Because you know, if you think 202 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 6: about why it was the British Empire was as powerful 203 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 6: it was and all the other European empires, it was 204 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:29,199 Speaker 6: because that was the way of the world. The imperial 205 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 6: rivalry was foreign policy and the idea that you could 206 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 6: have multilateral institutions that were organized around things like democracy, freedom, 207 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 6: human rights, and decolonization was at best and aspiration and 208 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 6: certainly far from proven, and the successive D Days showed 209 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,959 Speaker 6: the United States really leading the world in a new direction. 210 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 6: And had the D Day invasion failed, it doesn't take 211 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 6: a lot of imagination to see how different the world 212 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 6: would have been very quickly, and how different and certainly 213 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 6: the world would be today. 214 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 4: Somebody once said that D Day really mattered in part 215 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 4: because given all of the terrible losses of World War One, 216 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 4: we might not have had the nerve to try a 217 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 4: second time. That if we had launched an operation this 218 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 4: big and it failed, that in fact, we would have 219 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 4: sort of been out of business, leaving it to the 220 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 4: Soviets and the Germans to fight it out with whatever 221 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 4: outcome that led to. What's your sense do you think 222 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 4: if it had failed, that it would have been almost 223 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:39,199 Speaker 4: impossible for the Allied powers in the West to find 224 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 4: the nerve to come back and do it again. 225 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 5: I have no doubt about that. 226 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 6: The British had never really supported Operation Overlord. They had 227 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 6: been skeptical of it from its first iterations in nineteen 228 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 6: forty two, and up through the Cairo Conference. When the 229 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 6: D Day Invasion is officially set to launch in November 230 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 6: of nineteen forty three, the British are deeply opposed. 231 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 5: They want to for good and bad reasons. 232 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 6: Let me just preface that, but they want to continue 233 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:09,439 Speaker 6: operations in the Mediterranean to essentially strangle the Germans from abroad. 234 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 6: They want to use their superior air power to bomb 235 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 6: German industry into submission, and they want to use their 236 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 6: superior naval power to essentially contain Germany on the European continent. 237 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 6: And not for nothing, to contain the Soviet Union's expansion 238 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 6: into the eastern Mediterranean. And the United States and Britain 239 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 6: almost get into a brawl actually at this summit in 240 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 6: Cairo in nineteen forty three, over the choice between the 241 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 6: D Day invasion and continued operations in the Mediterranean. Had 242 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 6: the D Day Invasion failed, as many and most especially 243 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 6: Winston Churchill both feared and predicted it would, the United 244 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 6: States would have been discredited before it really had any 245 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 6: credibility in the world as a major military power. The 246 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 6: Allies would have had to fully commit to the British 247 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 6: strategy in the Mediterranean. That would have left the Soviets 248 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 6: as the only major rival to Nazi Germany on the 249 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 6: European continent. The Soviets, would they have continued to fight 250 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 6: all the way to Berlin without US opening a Western front? 251 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 5: Could they have? 252 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 6: I don't know that that's entirely clear. And would the 253 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 6: Soviet Union have cut a separate piece, essentially remaking the 254 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 6: European continent with Soviet communism in the east and sort 255 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 6: of hitlerrite fascism in the West. I think that's a 256 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 6: very real scenario. But then you can very quickly even 257 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 6: get into real sci fi level hypotheticals, because had the 258 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 6: war in Germany ended only three months later, had ve 259 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 6: Day been only delayed by three months, the United States 260 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 6: would have acquired operating nuclear weapons, and so would the 261 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 6: United States have attempted to resolve the European War by 262 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 6: using nuclear weapons? Would the United States have abandoned Europe? 263 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 6: I think that's a real possibility, because the European War, 264 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 6: we remember it, and certainly we remember our victory over 265 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 6: fascism in Europe today as one of our nation's great 266 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 6: moments of pride. But Roosevelt was up for election in 267 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 6: night teen forty four, and the European War was not 268 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 6: a popular item on the American political agenda. Most Americans 269 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 6: thought the United States should be focusing on the war 270 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 6: in the Pacific and defeating Japan, who had attacked US. 271 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 6: And Roosevelt's willingness to spend blood and treasure in Europe 272 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 6: came at a political cost. Would he have continued to 273 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 6: incur that political cost if something like the D Day Invasion, 274 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 6: which had committed one hundred and seventy six hundred and 275 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 6: seventy seven thousand men to crossing the English Channel and 276 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 6: to France, had that faltered, had tens of thousands, even 277 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 6: hundreds of thousands of men been lost or captured by 278 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 6: the Germans, would Roosevelt have essentially cut and run from 279 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 6: the European theater? Would he have even won reelection? These 280 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 6: are questions of great counterfactual history that a great novelist, 281 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 6: I think could entertain. 282 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 5: But it's very easy to see. 283 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 6: How the world that we live in today would be 284 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 6: so radically different had the D Day Invasion failed. 285 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 4: One of the things that makes it almost mystical is 286 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 4: the role of weather. Talk a little bit about that, 287 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 4: because it's one of the most fascinating aspects of how 288 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 4: Normandy unfolded and Eisenhower's role in decision making all wrapped 289 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 4: into one, and the indirect consequence, which we'll get. 290 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 6: To sure, So you know, Eisenhower comes to London in 291 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,679 Speaker 6: January of nineteen forty four and discovers that there are 292 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:41,360 Speaker 6: meteorologists everywhere, and because these are meteorologists like any good weatherman, 293 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 6: the predictions are literally all over the map, and the 294 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:46,919 Speaker 6: Army has their meteorologists, the Navy has theirs, the British 295 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 6: have theirs, and one of the first orders of business 296 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 6: once he begins to sort of direct the operation of 297 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 6: Operation Overlord is to consolidate all that. And so he 298 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 6: gets this Scottish meteorologist. They stuff him in a military 299 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:04,439 Speaker 6: uniform and Eisenhower basically makes him James Martin Stagg, the 300 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 6: commander for weather, and week after week Eisenhower brings him 301 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 6: to the commander's conference where he has to stand and 302 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 6: deliver right next to the Naval commander, the Army commander, 303 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 6: the air commanders, and Eisenhower asks him to predict the 304 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,439 Speaker 6: weather each week, and week after week they start just 305 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 6: seeing how good James Martin's Stagg is at this job. 306 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 6: And it got to the point where Eisenhower, it was said, 307 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,160 Speaker 6: could read James Martin's Stagg. 308 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 5: Like a poker player. And that mattered. 309 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,159 Speaker 6: Because on June third, just on the eve of the 310 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 6: launch of the original D Day invasion, which was scheduled 311 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 6: for June fifth, Stagg comes to Eisenhower and says, we 312 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 6: have reports from out in the Atlantic and a storm 313 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 6: is brewing. The clouds will make any air support or 314 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 6: any airborne operations completely infeasible. The visibility will prevent the 315 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:57,679 Speaker 6: naval guns from doing much good, and the sea is 316 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 6: going to boil. And so these landing crews that are 317 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 6: going to be trying to take the Normandy shores, if 318 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 6: they get to shore, the men on those boats will be, 319 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 6: if nothing else, seasick. And Eisenhower calls a meeting of 320 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 6: his commanders, and there's some descent about this whether or 321 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 6: not they should go as scheduled, because if they delay 322 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 6: the operation, they only have a short window in which 323 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,160 Speaker 6: to launch it up to June seventh, and if they 324 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:22,880 Speaker 6: delay it, they're going to have to delay at least 325 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 6: by a month, and there are any number of brave 326 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 6: consequences that might flow from that. But Eisenhower, against his 327 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,640 Speaker 6: gut goes with James Martin Stagg's prediction, and I say 328 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 6: against his gut, because, as it's described at the time, 329 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 6: the weather in southern England, in Portsmouth, where they're convening 330 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 6: for the launching of the invasion, is gorgeous. It's loose, gies, 331 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 6: it's hot. No one can remember the weather being ever 332 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,120 Speaker 6: as beautiful in southern England at this time of year. 333 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 6: But Eisenhower trusts this general for weather, who he had 334 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 6: come to understand and be able to read like a 335 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 6: poker player. And sure enough, as June fourth rolls in, 336 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 6: the winds pick up, the clouds come in, the rains 337 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 6: and the wind meet every one of Martin Stagg's predictions, 338 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 6: and then some. It's now some of the worst weather 339 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 6: they've experienced in Portsmouth at that time of year in 340 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 6: anyone's memory, and it's beginning to look hopeless. But then 341 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 6: Stagg comes back and says, there's a gap, based on 342 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 6: our detection and our measurements out deep in the Atlantic, 343 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 6: there's going to be a brief window from about June 344 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 6: sixth to June seventh where the storms that we are 345 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 6: now enduring will be pulled back out into the Atlantic 346 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,439 Speaker 6: and there'll be this brief gap in weather where the 347 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,959 Speaker 6: invasion will be possible. And again, you know, Eisenhower is 348 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 6: put at a conflict between just his gut and common 349 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 6: sense and looking out the window and James Martin's stagg 350 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,439 Speaker 6: and they end up holding a command conference to make 351 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 6: the final decision. And it's about five point thirty in 352 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 6: the morning in this old manor house called Southwick House, 353 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 6: and it's Eisenhower and his top commanders. They all agree 354 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 6: that they should go if they can. And the rain 355 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 6: is just drumming down on the windows, the wind is 356 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 6: howling around this old, creaky mansion, and it's up to 357 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,920 Speaker 6: Eisenhower and he sits there and people say it felt 358 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 6: like it took ten minutes of him just sitting there quietly. 359 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 6: In reality, it was probably ten seconds. And he looks 360 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 6: in the eyes of all his commanders and then just says, okay, 361 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 6: let's go, and that's the call. And in that moment, 362 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,679 Speaker 6: everyone in that room like jumps like they're a football 363 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 6: team running out. 364 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 5: Onto the field. 365 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,640 Speaker 6: And there's this brief moment when Eisenhower is just sitting 366 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 6: in that room alone, having made the gravest of possible 367 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 6: decisions to send this massive armada with so many lives 368 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 6: at stake, literally the freedom of the world at stake, 369 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 6: out into the middle of a storm. 370 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 4: The thing that makes it, I think even more poignant 371 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 4: is the note that Eisenhower then writes and puts in 372 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 4: his pocket. 373 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:57,360 Speaker 5: Yeah. 374 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 6: Absolutely, And so having done this, there's nothing else for 375 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 6: him to do. He's done everything he can do as 376 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 6: the overall commander of this operation. And now it's like 377 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 6: setting a machine in motion. But he stops and he 378 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 6: writes out a note. And that note is on the 379 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 6: expectation or in the eventuality. It's probably a better way 380 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 6: of saying it, that the invasion fails. And what's so 381 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 6: poignant about this note is, and I spent so much 382 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 6: time just looking at it because it's handwritten and there 383 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 6: are a lot of crossing outs. But an announcement, it's 384 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,640 Speaker 6: essentially little more than a press release to basically say, 385 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 6: our landings in Cherbourg have failed to gain a satisfactory 386 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 6: foothold and the troops have been withdrawn. Right, It's an 387 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 6: announcement of the failure of this operation. But every time 388 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 6: you can see him starting to make an excuse or 389 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 6: make it about him, or try and have some explanation 390 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 6: for why everything failed, he stops and he crosses it out, 391 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 6: and at the end he's simply says that the troops 392 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,719 Speaker 6: in the air and the navy just did all that 393 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 6: bravery and devotion to duty could do, and if any 394 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 6: blame or fault attaches to the attempt, it his mind alone. 395 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,640 Speaker 6: And he puts a period on that, puts an underline 396 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,399 Speaker 6: on it, and puts it in his wallet in case 397 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 6: the worst actually does happen. And in reading that letter, 398 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 6: and particularly reading his thought process, all the changes he 399 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,159 Speaker 6: made to make it all about the sacrifices of the 400 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 6: men under his command and all the blame, taking all 401 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:32,119 Speaker 6: that blame on his own shoulders for posterity, potentially is 402 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 6: precisely why the invasion succeeded. It's because the man who 403 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 6: wrote that note was the one in charge of the 404 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 6: overall operation. 405 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. 406 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 4: And I've always thought the moral courage to both make 407 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 4: the decision and then to make sure before we knew 408 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 4: whether or not it would succeed, that if anything went wrong, 409 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 4: he personally would carry the burden. I thought it was 410 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 4: one of the great acts of moral courage in the 411 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 4: twentieth century. Well, there's a secondary consequence, however, Michael, that 412 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,920 Speaker 4: you have to share with people, because in a funny way, 413 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 4: the bad weather actually ends up helping because the bad 414 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 4: weather is coming from the west, so it will pass England, 415 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 4: and as England is clearing, northern France is getting works. 416 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 4: Describe in what way this actually worked out, ironically to 417 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 4: great advantage for the Allies. 418 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 6: Well, for all the reasons that anyone looking out the 419 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,880 Speaker 6: window as Eisenhower made the call to go, would say, 420 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 6: no sane person would launch an invasion in this weather, 421 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,679 Speaker 6: the Nazis looked at the weather and said, no sane 422 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 6: person is going to launch an invasion in this weather. 423 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 6: And so Irwin Rommel is specifically who was Hitler's general 424 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,679 Speaker 6: in charge of what was called the Atlantic Wall. And 425 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 6: I'm happy to describe the Atlantic Wall more because it's 426 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:56,199 Speaker 6: a devious contraption of one hundred and forty million metric 427 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 6: tons of concrete and every device to essentially chew any 428 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,879 Speaker 6: man trying to attempt to breach this great Atlantic Wall 429 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 6: into pieces before he even can get his foot on 430 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 6: the ground. Irwin Rommel decides, well, since the weather's so bad, 431 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 6: I may as well go home and visit my wife 432 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 6: for Herbert birthday, and so the German sort of attention, 433 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 6: if nothing else is elsewhere. Hitler as actually, as I 434 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 6: understand it, based on reports about Hitler's own behavior, is 435 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 6: basically high and goes to bed completely stoned, and so 436 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,880 Speaker 6: it is actually difficult to wake as the invasion is happening, 437 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 6: and even when it does, there is a sort of 438 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,400 Speaker 6: disbelief that the invasion is real. Most of the German 439 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 6: High Command were convinced that the ally's main objective was 440 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,359 Speaker 6: to target Calais, which is a peninsula further west and 441 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 6: actually much closer to Great Britain than the Normandy beaches are, 442 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:48,919 Speaker 6: and Eisenhower very assiduously fed into this belief by the 443 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 6: Germans with a plan called Operation Fortitude that had fake 444 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 6: naval traffic between radio operators pretending to be part of 445 00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 6: a great armada that was on the way to invade Calais, 446 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 6: dummy airplanes, dummy camps in England, and probably most important 447 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 6: of all, led by the first US Army Group, whose 448 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,360 Speaker 6: commanding officer was other than George s Patten. And if 449 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 6: there was one person who haunted the dreams of the 450 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 6: German High Command, it was George s Patten, and so 451 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 6: when the first reports of the invasion start coming in 452 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 6: despite the weather, the Germans just think it's a faint. 453 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 6: They think this is the fake out, and that George s. 454 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 6: Patten is just waiting to cross the channel into calay 455 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 6: as soon as they move their forces further west, because 456 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,919 Speaker 6: they just can't believe that Georges Patten is not at 457 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 6: the vanguard of this operation. I'll mention this last piece 458 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 6: is George s. Patten can't believe it either. He actually 459 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 6: offers Eisenhower I think it's something like three thousand dollars 460 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 6: a week just to go lead a brigade in Normandy 461 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 6: until he has to finally bring over the Third Army 462 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 6: about a month later. And Eisenhower doesn't even take the joke, 463 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 6: because Georges Patten is pinning down German division after German 464 00:26:58,119 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 6: division simply by being in England. 465 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 4: It's interesting in that sense, how sometimes you can take 466 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 4: your own head and project it into a map what 467 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 4: Wellington described as the danger of thinking that you know 468 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 4: what's on the other side of the hill. In fact 469 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,919 Speaker 4: you may not. Part of the German arrogance was that 470 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,439 Speaker 4: they were so sure they understood all this stuff that 471 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 4: they didn't have to question themselves. And I think Eisenower 472 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 4: in particular had developed a real ability to say, Okay, 473 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 4: I think your point about poker. I mean Eisenow was 474 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 4: a very good bridge player and a very good poker 475 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 4: player because he understood people, and therefore he could measure 476 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 4: who he was up against and did so. I think 477 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 4: not just in terms of his enemies, but I've always 478 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:49,400 Speaker 4: thought that his instinct when he was first assigned to Europe. 479 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 4: He's one of the people Marshall believes is capable of 480 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 4: playing a big role, and his instinct that the number 481 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,159 Speaker 4: one job he had when he first got to London 482 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 4: was to truly get to know Cher. That if Churchill 483 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 4: decided he liked Eisenhower, many other things would become possible. 484 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 4: And so the amount of time he spent at dinner 485 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 4: with Churchill and he spent playing cards and talking and 486 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 4: telling stories and mostly listening. With Churchill, you tended to 487 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 4: listen rather than talk. Is instinct for how people operated 488 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 4: was remarkable, and. 489 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:24,919 Speaker 6: It is and I would actually ask this question of 490 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 6: you as sort of one of the great politicians of 491 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 6: the twentieth century. To me, he seems to have an 492 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 6: almost preternatural political instinct, you know, the touch for understanding 493 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,680 Speaker 6: that at the end of the day, relationships are how 494 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 6: things get done. And you can have all of the 495 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 6: best laid plans, you can have all of the military 496 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 6: equipment in the world, but at the end of the day, 497 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 6: it's getting people to move in the same direction. That's 498 00:28:50,680 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 6: a fundamentally human endeavor, not a logical or mathematical one. 499 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 4: I say this in part because my dad was a 500 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 4: career soldier and I got to spend as a child 501 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 4: three years at Fort Riley, not far from where Eisenhow 502 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 4: was raised. It may well have been things he learned 503 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 4: growing up in small town Kansas. It was something that 504 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 4: Bob Dolan I talked about on occasion that there was 505 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 4: a in that generation you measured people and they mattered 506 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 4: and you spent time on it. And dol of course, 507 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 4: was of the generation that revered Eisenhower. You also had 508 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 4: the same experience with Dole that one on one relationships 509 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 4: really mattered, and that you either were honorable and trustworthy 510 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 4: or you weren't, and you either could work together or 511 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 4: you couldn't. And from that many other things became possible. 512 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 4: And I think that I had that instinct on the 513 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 4: other front. People tended to forget that when he was 514 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 4: out of the army. During the period after he retired 515 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 4: as Chief of Staff of the Army and before he 516 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 4: went back in organized NATO, he was president of Columbia, 517 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 4: and very few people realize that he actually was translating 518 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 4: thucididies from the Greek as a hobby, just keep his 519 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 4: mind going. Now. Conversely, you may know this story that 520 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 4: the intellectuals all despised him in part because he read 521 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 4: a lot of Westerns. He said, if you're making the 522 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 4: kind of decisions I'm making every day, you don't need 523 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 4: heavy fiction. You need something that lets you just plan, relax. 524 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:39,959 Speaker 4: And it didn't bother him because he thought what he 525 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 4: was doing made perfect sense. Then I think it did 526 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 4: in your mind looking at all this, how would you 527 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 4: measure the transition that Eisenhower made from general to being president? 528 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 6: One of the things that I took away, So just 529 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,240 Speaker 6: give you a quick methodological geek out a second non 530 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 6: method and how I wrote this book just because there's 531 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 6: so much written about certainly D Day and even Eisenhower, 532 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 6: and I felt that some of it did him a 533 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 6: disservice in terms of treating him more as an icon 534 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 6: than as a person, and really trying to get into 535 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 6: how it was that someone from the middle of Kansas 536 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 6: was able to ascend the heights and be arrival of 537 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 6: someone like Roosevelt and Churchill and all these other major 538 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 6: figures of the period. And to do that, I spent 539 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 6: a lot of time just basically just sticking to the 540 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 6: primary sources throughout his biography. But with respect to the 541 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 6: six months leading up to D Day, my main approach 542 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 6: was after I found his day planners and his log 543 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 6: of visitors, I just tried to individually reconstruct almost every 544 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 6: day of his life to really get a sense of 545 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 6: the real time concerns he had, what was really taking 546 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 6: up his time, And just trying to be a fly 547 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 6: on the wall basically was my approach. And I came 548 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 6: away from it just feeling so stressed out right, just 549 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 6: the number of things on his plate from so many 550 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 6: different directions. You know, it hardly surprised me that he 551 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 6: developed a cold that never went away, that he started 552 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 6: developing a ringing in the ears, a sty formed in 553 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 6: his eye right, not to mention all the smoking. So 554 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 6: one thing I kind of think, I say in jest, 555 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 6: but I think happens to also probably be true. Is 556 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 6: I think the presidency was a lot easier for him, 557 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 6: certainly than this period, because he had by that point 558 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 6: more wisdom, He was older, and I think also he 559 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 6: had understood the stakes of all these things, and how 560 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 6: sometimes good decisions are going to go the wrong way 561 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 6: and bad decisions will go the right way, and that 562 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 6: his job ultimately is to make the best possible decision 563 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 6: he can based on the best information he can, and 564 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 6: that's his only job. And being able to sort of 565 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,239 Speaker 6: understand his role in that way, I thought was one 566 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 6: of the most fascinating things that I could sort of 567 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 6: see developing in his character, which certainly in his presidential 568 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 6: period I think is there are rife examples where he 569 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 6: very carefully thought, Just like with this Westerns point you mentioned, 570 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 6: he was very careful about how he thought. He was 571 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 6: very meticulous in a way about keeping his mind as 572 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 6: clear and as stable as he possibly could, knowing that 573 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 6: the hard decisions were just going to keep coming, like 574 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 6: there's always going to just be a torrent of noise 575 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 6: that he had to be able to see through in 576 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 6: order to make the best possible decisions. And so, you know, 577 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 6: I think his transition from certainly leading Operation Overlord to 578 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 6: the presidency was helped by the maturity and just the 579 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 6: practice in being a decider. To borrow a phrase from 580 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 6: George W. Bush right, that that is really your job, 581 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 6: and the most important thing you can do is having 582 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 6: the best possible people in place to do the jobs 583 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 6: that you need them to do, and then just keep 584 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 6: your mind as clear as possible and able as possible 585 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 6: to make hard decisions under ambiguous circumstances right where you 586 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 6: don't know what the right answer is and the only 587 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 6: thing you can do is make the best answer. And 588 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 6: so I think that was a big difference. I think 589 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 6: one of his you know, in reading about the period 590 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 6: of his transition, I think one of the things he 591 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,879 Speaker 6: did have to adjust to in political life was celebrity, 592 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,240 Speaker 6: because he hadn't really been much of a celebrity until 593 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 6: the start of Operation over Lord. A lot of generals 594 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 6: had gotten famous, but he had to slowly learn that 595 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:24,880 Speaker 6: he no longer had privacy, and I think that was 596 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 6: really hard on him because he was a fairly contemplative 597 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 6: guy despite some of the barbs that got thrown at him, 598 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 6: and so he learned to take himself not all that 599 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 6: seriously as a way of dealing with fame, and he 600 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 6: has I think a pretty wry sense of humor about 601 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 6: himself as well that he then took into the presidency 602 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 6: and probably kept him saying. The last thing I'll say 603 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 6: about his transition, and maybe these are a little slightly 604 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 6: more specific, is a lot of the lessons he is 605 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 6: forced to learn and the lead up to Operation Overlord, 606 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 6: And this, to me was one of the more fascinating 607 00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:01,879 Speaker 6: pieces of this story. Echo the hard decisions he has 608 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,840 Speaker 6: to make as president, and that runs the gamut I 609 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 6: mentioned nuclear weapons. He's the first president to be known 610 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 6: as the leader of the free world, and on his 611 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 6: shoulders during that time is the shift towards a nuclear 612 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,759 Speaker 6: armed world. And so these are issues that he's now 613 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,280 Speaker 6: had to think about for ten years, and think about 614 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 6: in really quite stark terms. Civil rights is an issue 615 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 6: that we don't often think about in the context of 616 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 6: the Second World War, but it took up an inordinate 617 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,880 Speaker 6: amount of his time and attention even during the D 618 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,359 Speaker 6: Day landings. They'd good Marshal in fact, actually writes him 619 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 6: a nasty cable like a day or two after the 620 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 6: D Day landings, based on essentially the handling of some 621 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 6: cases involving some black soldiers, and so he has to 622 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 6: sort of navigate these really touchy, difficult problems of civil 623 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 6: rights the military industrial complex. This often comes up, particularly 624 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 6: in the context of the debate over the use of 625 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,720 Speaker 6: air power in the Second World War, and he begins 626 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 6: to see the dangers that accrue when you have a 627 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 6: essentially ideologically driven part of the military that believes that 628 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 6: it is at the vanguard of the future and really 629 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:12,320 Speaker 6: enjoys gloating its budgets up without really thinking historically about 630 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 6: what the military needs, how wars are actually won. I 631 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,600 Speaker 6: think that's an interesting lesson that he very much takes 632 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 6: forward into the presidency. And then also, just as you said, 633 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 6: that human touch, that understanding that relationships are one on one, 634 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 6: because all of the major figures he ends up dealing 635 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 6: with in the nineteen fifties in one way or another, 636 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:35,719 Speaker 6: are people he met or got to know in oftentimes 637 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,400 Speaker 6: in this period of six months, whether or not that's 638 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:42,440 Speaker 6: Joseph Stalin, whether or not that's other Russian generals like 639 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:46,360 Speaker 6: General Zukov, certainly Winston Churchill or Anthony Eden. On the 640 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 6: British side, Charles de Gaull plays a very large role, 641 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,799 Speaker 6: as you know in this story, in the continuing sort 642 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,360 Speaker 6: of saga of France in the nineteen fifties and then sixties. 643 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 6: So I don't want to overstate this, but one of 644 00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 6: the things that made this a real joy to write 645 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,279 Speaker 6: and research even more than to write, was just the 646 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 6: sort of portrait of a president you get as a 647 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,919 Speaker 6: young man, right how you see him growing from this 648 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:13,920 Speaker 6: very competent, very able, very admirable military figure into being 649 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 6: the kind of person who is, as you said, something 650 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 6: like a modern day George Washington. 651 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:23,879 Speaker 4: I share your affection and admiration for President Eisenhower and 652 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 4: for the extraordinary achievements, and certainly D Day is a 653 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:32,320 Speaker 4: pretty good time to remember what an enormous contribution they made. Michelle, 654 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 4: I want to thank you for joining me. Your new book, 655 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,880 Speaker 4: The Light of Battle Eisenhower, D Day and the Birth 656 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 4: of the American Superpower is available now in Amazon and 657 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,840 Speaker 4: in bookstores everywhere. I think it's an incredibly important book. 658 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,920 Speaker 4: I encourage everyone to get a copy and to remember 659 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:51,879 Speaker 4: on this eightieth anniversary of D Day, what was at 660 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 4: stake and the courage it took. 661 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:54,439 Speaker 5: Thank you so much. 662 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 4: Thank you to my guest Michelle. You can get a 663 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 4: link to buy his new book, The Light of Battle 664 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,359 Speaker 4: Eisenhower D Day and the Birth of the American Superpower 665 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:12,239 Speaker 4: on our show page at newtworld dot com. News World 666 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 4: is produced by Ganglish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive 667 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 4: producer is Guernsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The 668 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 4: artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special 669 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 4: thanks to the team at Gingers three sixty. If you've 670 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 4: been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast 671 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,799 Speaker 4: and both rate us with five stars and give us 672 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 4: a review so others can learn what it's all about. 673 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,279 Speaker 4: Right now, listeners of Newtsworld can sign up for my 674 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 4: three free weekly columns at gingrichthree sixty dot com slash newsletter. 675 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 4: I'm newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.