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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight, or.

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Speaker 1: Showed us an email at trust Me pod at gmail

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me, Trust trust me.

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Speaker 4: I'm like a squat person. I've never lied to you.

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Speaker 2: I never If you think that one person has all

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Speaker 2: the answers, don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cults,

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Speaker 2: extreme belief and manipulation from two artificially intelligent beings who've

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Speaker 2: actually experienced it. I'm Lola Blanc.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: Today's guest is Sarah Teitelman. She's a tech consultant and

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Speaker 2: author of a forthcoming book about tech who's going to

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Speaker 2: talk to us about the culty elements of technology. And

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Speaker 2: while Sarah's specialty lies more in optimization of the nonprofit workplace,

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Speaker 2: we're going to have more of a philosophical discussion about

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Speaker 2: how we are expected to just try us in our

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Speaker 2: tech overlords without questioning both the CEOs and the algorithms themselves,

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Speaker 2: how it's a sort of coercion to be handed algorithms

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Speaker 2: and apts with no say in or understanding of how

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Speaker 2: they work, and how AI factors into all of it.

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Speaker 1: Culty, we'll talk about the difficulty of reigning and tech

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Speaker 1: fast enough, how social media is dulling our critical thinking skills,

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Speaker 1: and what she sees as a better approach to tech

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Speaker 1: and life in general. It's also worth noting that one

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Speaker 1: of the things she said in this interview that really

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Speaker 1: blew my mind is that the people creating the AI

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Speaker 1: or the technology don't even know how it's working themselves,

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Speaker 1: which is just so scary.

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Speaker 2: It's so scary.

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Speaker 5: What's going on in there?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't know, will nobody knows.

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Speaker 2: We will discuss. We do not know, but we will discuss.

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Speaker 6: We always do.

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Speaker 2: Listen, it's a podcast, Milligan, before we talk tech. What's

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Speaker 2: your cultiest thing of this week?

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, I've been following the story in the Philippines.

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Speaker 1: It's a group called the Kingdom of Jesus Christ or

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Speaker 1: the ko JC. It's run by a man named Apollo

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Speaker 1: who shocking. Yeah this might be surprising to you, but

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Speaker 1: he is the owner of the universe and appointed son

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Speaker 1: of God.

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Speaker 6: No, no, I know that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, according to him, don't come at me anybody who

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Speaker 1: believes in this. But he is currently on a like

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Speaker 1: a compound where they built underground bunkers for him, and

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Speaker 1: he's hiding. They sent like two thousand riot police out

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Speaker 1: to get him last week with like detectors that can

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Speaker 1: detect humans through cement. They still haven't found him. And

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Speaker 1: then I'm reading the other side where his believers are

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Speaker 1: saying this is way too much force, Like we didn't

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Speaker 1: do anything wrong. He's of course being charged with child

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Speaker 1: sexual abuse and fraud and all of the other things

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Speaker 1: in between that we usually see here. And the fbis

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Speaker 1: in our country is actually involved as well.

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Speaker 3: So they still got him.

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Speaker 2: Wow, Yeah, so dramatic. I want to know what happens

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Speaker 2: and where he is. Like, are his followers being like,

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Speaker 2: of course you can't detect him because he's undetectable because

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Speaker 2: he's like a god or whatever.

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Speaker 1: No, I think they're like, he's in a hundred foot bunker.

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Speaker 1: But also but also there, I mean, they probably have

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Speaker 1: a sensation of it being divine intervention.

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Speaker 2: I would yeah, you know, I mean when you when

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Speaker 2: you say he's no one has detected anything. I'm like,

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Speaker 2: sounds very ex files. Well, I can't wait to hear

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Speaker 2: more about how that goes, because yeah, people who do

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Speaker 2: that should not be doing that, agreed.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things he said he did was

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Speaker 1: stop an earthquake from happening. And I'm just like, okay,

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Speaker 1: so did.

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Speaker 2: I I mean, you too, can't prove that you're not

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Speaker 2: sting earthquakes listeners. What are you even doing?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I don't know.

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Speaker 1: He's kind of obnoxious in my opinion, but again, don't

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Speaker 1: come at me. Maybe he's great.

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Speaker 4: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I mean, uh, will you he's not great. I think

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Speaker 2: he's The thing you just said is something. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: never like have the words to articulate in the moment,

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Speaker 2: so I'm going to do a bad job of it.

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Speaker 2: But it's it's about how you are making an unprovable

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Speaker 2: claim when, which I feel like happens so much is

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Speaker 2: on the internet, in particular, speaking of tech, where people

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Speaker 2: will put out a claim and you can't prove that

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Speaker 2: they're not right, but there is no evidence that they are,

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Speaker 2: and that distinction is very important, Like, yes, I cannot

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Speaker 2: technically reach into my possible earthquake list a file and like,

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Speaker 2: find the earthquake that you prevented. But also you have

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Speaker 2: zero evidence to prove that you did it, So so

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Speaker 2: what are we talking about.

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Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, that's an interesting point.

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Speaker 6: You have.

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Speaker 2: The burden is on the person making the claim to

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Speaker 2: furnish evidence, is what I'm saying. Obviously that's a very

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Speaker 2: extreme one, so we all know he didn't do that.

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Speaker 2: But it's an example of that thing that comes up

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Speaker 2: a lot, which is always, for some reason, really hard

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Speaker 2: for me to articulate in the moment.

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Speaker 1: And we all don't know that you did it because

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Speaker 1: millions of people are in this cult because they've been

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Speaker 1: so well groomed.

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Speaker 2: So it's oh, is it that big? Is this like

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Speaker 2: a national religion?

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Speaker 1: I guess the Philippines And uh okay, I guess the

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Speaker 1: Philippines political culture is very tight in with the religious culture,

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Speaker 1: and so this is also kind of a political move

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Speaker 1: when you get down deeper into it, which then brings

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Speaker 1: you to the fact that like Christianity was brought there

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Speaker 1: to begin with by the Spanish, and it's just.

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Speaker 2: All so confused. Oh my gosh, oh my gosh. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: religion and politics should be separate people.

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Speaker 1: Amen, Amen, I minimen.

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Speaker 2: Well, similar to what you seem to be describing, but

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Speaker 2: about five decades earlier. My cultiest thing is about a

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Speaker 2: compound that is now for sale in New York could

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Speaker 2: be yours for six million dollars. And I love the

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Speaker 2: real estate like the cult compound. Real estate listings like

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Speaker 2: this is this is a fun category for me. So

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Speaker 2: this is a building in Brooklyn that is decorated like

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Speaker 2: ancient Egypt. It's got murals on the outside, it's got statues.

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Speaker 2: According to the New York Post, it has a dark

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Speaker 2: history as the home of a UFO believing cult whose

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Speaker 2: hateful leader has claimed he's God from outer space. So

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Speaker 2: it's at the corner of Bushwick and Heart and the

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Speaker 2: group is called the probably butchering the name the Nuwabian Nation,

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Speaker 2: who also called themselves Sabaian Sibbians. I'm saying I'm probably

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Speaker 2: saying wrong. This group was really big in the seventies

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Speaker 2: and eighties. The Southern Poverty Law Center designated them as

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Speaker 2: a hate group because they were peddling black supremacist ideas

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Speaker 2: with various conspiracies related to the Illuminati, worship of the Egyptians,

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Speaker 2: belief in UFOs, but of course, like unto the man

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Speaker 2: you just described, the leader, there were child sexual assault.

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Speaker 2: Don't even think allegations. I think he actually was arrested

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Speaker 2: for them. He went to jail for let's see, he

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Speaker 2: was sentenced to over one hundred and thirty years in

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Speaker 2: federal prison on multiple racketeering and child molestation convictions. The

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Speaker 2: whole thing is he's a god from outer space. So

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Speaker 2: that's the baseline. As we know.

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Speaker 3: How many earthquakes did he stop?

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Speaker 2: That's what I thought, probably like a lot. They moved there.

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Speaker 2: They relocated to Georgia, where they built a massive compound

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Speaker 2: consisting of two pyramids in anticipation of a UFO slated

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Speaker 2: to visit Earth in two thousand and three and take

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Speaker 2: with it one and forty four thousand chosen people. On

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Speaker 2: the other hand, the neighbors are like, yeah, they're fine,

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Speaker 2: they're nice. They don't really do anything. They have barbecues,

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Speaker 2: they hand out turkeys.

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Speaker 6: They're fine.

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Speaker 2: Now, So I don't know, but I do know that

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Speaker 2: you can buy the property if you would like to

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Speaker 2: have an Egyptian temple in Brooklyn. It is available to

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Speaker 2: you now.

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Speaker 1: From a racist pedophile six million dollars who wants it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know Brooklyn real estate that is very confident.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, as we always say, tech is helping people get

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Speaker 1: out of cults and to get into them. So it's

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Speaker 1: interesting to think about that cult however, many years ago

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Speaker 1: and now this cult present day, and how much more

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Speaker 1: information people have about it now and how they can

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Speaker 1: easily find out how to get into it and how

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Speaker 1: you get out of it.

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Speaker 2: It's true. Oh my god, I thought you said Jack

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Speaker 2: and I was like, Jack, Jack is Jack is doing?

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Speaker 2: What about cults? I understand tech.

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Speaker 1: You said tech, which is related to our episode.

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Speaker 2: I get it. Yeah, you're absolutely right. It is so

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Speaker 2: much easier to get into a cult now now, and

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Speaker 2: it's so much easier to get out a summing. You

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Speaker 2: are ready to look it up online. Yeah, so let's

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Speaker 2: get into that discussion now, should we.

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Speaker 3: Let's do it.

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Speaker 1: And I'm just going to throw out the name of

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Speaker 1: her book. It's in in the Art of Digital Transformation,

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Speaker 1: Leading a Mindful Redesign of the Digital Enterprise, and we

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Speaker 1: will let you guys know when it is released.

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Speaker 3: Let's talk to Sarah.

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Speaker 2: Welcome Sarah Titelman to trust me. Thank you for joining us,

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. You are someone who's going

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Speaker 2: to speak to us a little bit about technology and

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Speaker 2: the cultic qualities that technology can have. Can you first

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Speaker 2: give us a little bit of background on you and

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Speaker 2: why you are talking about technology in these terms.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I came into technology kind of in a roundabout way.

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Speaker 4: I did not start my career at all in tech.

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Speaker 4: I was actually a comparative literature major as an undergrad

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Speaker 4: and then kind of wandered around and found that I

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Speaker 4: really enjoyed kind of thinking about communities and community health.

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Speaker 4: And I had this trip to Africa that really inspired

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Speaker 4: me to think about like community system and structures and

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Speaker 4: how they support health or unhealth, and so that led me.

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Speaker 4: First I thought I wanted to be a doctor, and

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Speaker 4: then that was too specific, Like I actually got asked

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Speaker 4: in the medical school interview like do you actually like

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Speaker 4: being around sick people? And I was like, no, I

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Speaker 4: don't actually.

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Speaker 6: Particularly enjoy doing that.

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Speaker 4: That was a great question to ask somebody going to

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Speaker 4: medical school, and so that kind of like led me

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Speaker 4: down this path of you know, what is it that

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Speaker 4: I'm really trying to do. And he actually suggested public health,

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Speaker 4: which I didn't even know what public health was at

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Speaker 4: the time. I guess now, you know, post COVID, everybody

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Speaker 4: knows what public health is, but at the time it

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Speaker 4: was this kind of mystery field. But really what it's about,

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Speaker 4: it's about looking at a population and thinking about, you know,

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Speaker 4: what are the things, the behaviors, the influences, the controls

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Speaker 4: that lead a population to be healthier or less healthy? Right,

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Speaker 4: Like the classic example is like smoking, Like how do

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Speaker 4: you make it more difficult? You know, California has done

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Speaker 4: a phenomenal job at the you know, how do you

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Speaker 4: make it really difficult for somebody to smoke, like just

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Speaker 4: to allow them to do?

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Speaker 7: You know.

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Speaker 4: So that's the kind of thinking that public health people do,

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Speaker 4: and they have, you know, there's a lot of like

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Speaker 4: behavioral researchers and things in that field that I got

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Speaker 4: got turned on too during grad school and so then

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Speaker 4: I went into the public health field. And it was

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Speaker 4: actually during like the height of the HIV epidemic globally.

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Speaker 4: I got kind of swept up in that and I

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Speaker 4: was working at these large NGOs that were at the

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Speaker 4: forefront of this work, and it was super complicated. There

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Speaker 4: was ton you know, hundreds of millions of dollars being

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Speaker 4: pumped through these organizations to essentially, you know, figure out

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Speaker 4: how we can do better in the HIV crisis. And

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Speaker 4: my focus area was in Africa, but you know, I'd

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Speaker 4: be working at these organizations that were working in like

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Speaker 4: thirty fifty in one hundred different countries, and so they

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Speaker 4: basically had satellites, you know, of doctors, nurses, researchers in

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Speaker 4: each of these countries working vigorously on you know, these

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Speaker 4: challenges in different ways. So there was like information streaming everywhere.

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Speaker 4: And I realized that what we essentially had, you know,

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Speaker 4: at least at like the headquarters, you know, I'd be

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Speaker 4: in DC an information problem, Like there was an information problem.

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Speaker 4: There was too much information coming in. There was the

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Speaker 4: ability to like process that information and make sense out

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Speaker 4: of it in real time to then kind of like

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Speaker 4: ingest those learnings and send them back out to the

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Speaker 4: field so that we were actually making real time progress

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Speaker 4: on things.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: I love the idea of talking about public health as

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Speaker 2: it pertains to technology, because we kind of think of

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Speaker 2: our brains as separate from public health so much of

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Speaker 2: the time, when it's obviously the brain has so much

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Speaker 2: to do with our physical health and our societal health overall,

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Speaker 2: and our brains are being impacted so much every single

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Speaker 2: day and being manipulated by technology that we interact with

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Speaker 2: on a daily basis. I love that that's how you

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Speaker 2: came to this work because that makes so much sense

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Speaker 2: and it's such an important area of work. So well,

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Speaker 2: when you say technology, what parts of technology are you

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Speaker 2: referring to?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? Yeah, So my real focus is on how organizations

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Speaker 4: use technology to get their work done. So you know,

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Speaker 4: I'm not really thinking about I mean, there's a lot

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Speaker 4: of great thinking, for instance, out in the realm of

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Speaker 4: like social media and consumer tech and all that stuff

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Speaker 4: I think is like well trodden territory. You know, there's

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Speaker 4: a lot of obviously discussions about you know, how healthy

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Speaker 4: it is. But I think the technology within organizations, given

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Speaker 4: that most people spend the majority of their days, you know,

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Speaker 4: at a job in front of a computer doing stuff

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Speaker 4: like we don't actually talk about that aspect of technology

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Speaker 4: very much in terms of its contribution to the health

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Speaker 4: and well being of employees the ability for organizations to function.

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Speaker 4: Since my focus in my consulting practices on you know,

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Speaker 4: supporting nonprofits in that realm, you know, it's crucially important

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Speaker 4: if if the goal of a nonprofit is to you know,

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Speaker 4: achieve its mission and X, Y, and z. If it

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Speaker 4: can't function internally, then that's a real issue. And if

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Speaker 4: it's wasting tons of money and resources and time on that,

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Speaker 4: then that's less resources and time that can be spent

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Speaker 4: on actually doing the work that they are wanting to do.

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Speaker 4: So that was kind of always my angle. It was like,

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Speaker 4: how can we do better when it comes to technology

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Speaker 4: in the workplace.

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Speaker 2: And what are some of the ways that we are

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Speaker 2: not doing better for technology in the.

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Speaker 6: Workplace or in society life. Yeah? Yeah, really bad.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's really bad. You know. When I started out

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Speaker 4: paying attention to tech, it was because of my own

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Speaker 4: frustrations as someone trying to get work done in a large,

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Speaker 4: complex organization. I was like, you've got to be kidding me.

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Speaker 4: You know, I've always liked tech, Like I was kind

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Speaker 4: of a tech nerd when I was a kid and

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Speaker 4: I had a you know, Apple computer when I was

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Speaker 4: like eight or nine, and I did stuff, you know,

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Speaker 4: So I like, I just like getting into things and

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Speaker 4: I'm not scared for, you know, of tech at all.

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Speaker 4: You know. I started connecting with folks in it, and

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Speaker 4: I was like, can we do this, can we do that?

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Speaker 4: And they were like, well, I don't know, you know,

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Speaker 4: like just don't bother us. We're busy, you know with

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Speaker 4: help us tickets, you know that kind of thing. And

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Speaker 4: I was like, but we could do really cool stuff.

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Speaker 4: And you know, finally I did get them on board.

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Speaker 4: But you know, the issue that I see that I

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Speaker 4: thought was unique to just a few of the organizations,

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Speaker 4: and now that I'm a consultant, I see it every

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Speaker 4: single organization is that people, the human beings that work

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Speaker 4: in the organization, are not accounted for when it comes

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Speaker 4: to how the technology is selected, rolled out, used. It's

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Speaker 4: like they're sort of two worlds that have collided with

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Speaker 4: no regard for one another. Like people have been thrown

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Speaker 4: into a situation that they did not, in most cases,

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Speaker 4: have any say in. They were not consulted about what

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Speaker 4: their needs actually were, they were not properly trained or

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Speaker 4: supported to adopt whatever this thing was, and now their

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Speaker 4: job performance and their livelihood depends on it. And it's terrifying.

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Speaker 4: I mean, most people are throwing around terms like PTSD

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Speaker 4: from like the last failed tech implementation. You know, it's

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Speaker 4: a serious crisis and it's not just like spread I mean,

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Speaker 4: it's amazing, Like every single organization, every person I talk to,

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Speaker 4: I've had people candidly tell me, you know, and I assumed, well,

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Speaker 4: you know, nonprofits are always underfunded and they're kind of

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Speaker 4: messy as organizations generally, like even the larger ones. Right,

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Speaker 4: So I figured surely, you know, in other sectors like

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Speaker 4: banking or tech companies themselves, like this would be a

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Speaker 4: different situation, right When would assume I would assume, Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I've had friends and family, you know, candidly tell me, like,

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Speaker 4: you know, they work at Apple, it's the same situation there.

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Speaker 4: They work at you know, Tesla, it's the same situation there.

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Speaker 4: And I'm like shocked, But now I'm not shocked anymore

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Speaker 4: because this just seems to be the norm.

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Speaker 2: So and you say that people are using language like

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Speaker 2: they have PTSD after the last rollout, Like, what would

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Speaker 2: that be from? What is the disconnect that's happening? That's distressful? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: distressing distressing.

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Speaker 4: It's like, yeah, distressing, I think it is, you know,

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Speaker 4: living through a process where it kind of hit you

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Speaker 4: out of the blue. So there was you know, not

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Speaker 4: adequate preparation, Like imagine you're just going about your work day,

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Speaker 4: and you know the tools that you're using are imperfect,

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Speaker 4: but you know them. You know. It's like you have

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Speaker 4: a funky car and you know that you know, the

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Speaker 4: passenger Jordan never slams unless you like hit it really

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Speaker 4: hard or something. You know, you get used to those

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Speaker 4: little things and you just have your way of dealing

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Speaker 4: with them, and then all of a sudden, you know,

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Speaker 4: out of nowhere, somebody says, hey, we're going to rip

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Speaker 4: out all this stuff and we're going to replace it

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Speaker 4: with something that's way better, and it's going to do

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Speaker 4: all these amazing things, and you just have to go along,

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Speaker 4: you know, on this journey with us. And so they do,

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Speaker 4: and at some point, what do they call it, like

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Speaker 4: the trough of disillusionment, like kicks in you sort of

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Speaker 4: in tac there's like this curve and it's like this

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Speaker 4: elation of like, oh my god, it's going to solve

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Speaker 4: all our problems. And then it just bends into the

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Speaker 4: trophic disillusionment and they realize, like, this is going to

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Speaker 4: be incredibly disruptive to me and I don't even know

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Speaker 4: how this thing works, and is this even the right

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Speaker 4: solution to the problem.

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Speaker 2: When we talk about technology, we're talking about its impact

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Speaker 2: on you know, society as a whole, or like how

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Speaker 2: it kind of creates these many cults. But I think

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Speaker 2: that the point that you're making that is really resonating

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Speaker 2: with me is just like we really don't get a say,

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Speaker 2: there are like four companies. We all kind of are

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Speaker 2: coerced into engaging with those four companies, and they're you know,

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Speaker 2: smaller companies underneath them. It's totally opaque how their algorithms work,

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Speaker 2: but we know that they're contributing to, for example, like

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Speaker 2: making everyone's beliefs even stronger, and they're in group been

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Speaker 2: making them more.

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Speaker 6: Tribalistic at least right now in society.

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Speaker 2: And I hope that this changes as society course corrects,

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Speaker 2: maybe in fifty years, I don't know, But there really

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Speaker 2: isn't a sense that like technology is working for me

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Speaker 2: or I get to choose, I get a choice in

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Speaker 2: what I want to be shown. I get a choice in,

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Speaker 2: you know, the type of content I want to see,

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Speaker 2: and not just like oh I clicked on something and

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Speaker 2: therefore I will see fifty more of that thing. But

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Speaker 2: like no, like holistically, like what kind of algorithms do

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Speaker 2: I want in my life? We just don't get a choice.

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Speaker 2: Part of that obviously is just corporations controlling everything. But

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I mean, what is your sense of

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Speaker 2: that sort of on a larger cultural.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, it's interesting. I mean where it kind of impacts.

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Speaker 4: You know. What I'm interested in is, you know, within

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Speaker 4: the workplace, there's even less control, you know, and I

390
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Speaker 4: think that's where the trauma comes in because in the workplace,

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Speaker 4: not only do you not have control, especially when you're

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Speaker 4: part of a process that is not consultative, that is

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Speaker 4: not human centered. And that's my big thing is human

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Speaker 4: centered digital transformation. Like I'm not suggesting that we just

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Speaker 4: like throw everything out and say no tech is bad.

396
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Speaker 4: I'm just saying, like, you know, you have to design

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Speaker 4: it around human beings, and you have to empower those

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Speaker 4: human beings to actually have a say in how technology

399
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Speaker 4: is used, in this case, in their work life. And

400
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Speaker 4: when that doesn't happen, people feel incredibly threatened. They do

401
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Speaker 4: assume that they're the stupid ones, that they just don't

402
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Speaker 4: get it, and you know that if they were just

403
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Speaker 4: smarter or more tech savvy or whatever, you know, and

404
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Speaker 4: that leads to incredible levels of anxiety because if you

405
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Speaker 4: can't perform your job and if you feel like it's

406
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Speaker 4: out of your control, how stressful is that. My observation

407
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Speaker 4: is that and this is like the dirty little secret

408
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Speaker 4: of you know, enterprise tech is that the IT department

409
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Speaker 4: doesn't even understand what's going on, Like they have completely

410
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Speaker 4: lost the block control of what is happening. Not only

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Speaker 4: do they not understand the tech that they're supposed to

412
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Speaker 4: be responsible for, but then they might not say, hey,

413
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Speaker 4: this is your official thing, but you know, the marketing

414
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Speaker 4: department decides to use slack and now they're like, hey,

415
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Speaker 4: what how do I use this? And it is like

416
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Speaker 4: I don't know, we don't even that I didn't even

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Speaker 4: know you add slack, you know, and it's just like

418
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Speaker 4: total chaos. I think this is where, you know, it

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Speaker 4: intersects really interestingly with the concept of cults. Where we're

420
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Speaker 4: at now is that tech is evolved enough that it's

421
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Speaker 4: actually easier to understand in that way, which is good.

422
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Speaker 4: That's a good thing. It's being demystified. But there are

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Speaker 4: people including you know, unfortunately a lot of like IT

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Speaker 4: folks and all people in tech who fit tremendously from

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Speaker 4: it being a black box, you know. So they're like

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Speaker 4: the wizards behind the curtain and they don't ask about

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Speaker 4: what goes on here, but he did, and you wouldn't understand.

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Speaker 6: So just back away with the advent of AI.

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Speaker 2: I wonder, like, doesn't that contribute more to that sort

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Speaker 2: of we don't really know what's going.

431
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Speaker 6: On and it's just the tech gods that are guiding us.

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Speaker 4: Right Well, that that's really interesting. So yeah, I've done,

433
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Speaker 4: you know, a fair amount of thinking about this. And

434
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Speaker 4: I read this article a while ago which was excellent.

435
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Speaker 4: I'll try to dig it up and send you guys

436
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Speaker 4: the link, but I think it was in Wired magazine,

437
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 4: and it it talked about the team that was developing

438
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 4: chat GPT and at this point, you know, it had

439
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 4: maybe gone to like two versions or something, and now

440
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,200
Speaker 4: it's on like the fourth or fifth version, and they

441
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 4: were saying that the you know, the brilliant minds, the

442
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,399
Speaker 4: people who are literally creating this thing, really did not

443
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 4: understand how it was working because basically they created what

444
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,359
Speaker 4: was essentially a neural network, Like they could control the

445
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 4: inputs and they could control that, you know, they saw

446
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 4: what the outputs were, but like, what was actually going

447
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,880
Speaker 4: on inside that neural network? They had, they couldn't see

448
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,120
Speaker 4: you can't see data flying, and like.

449
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 1: It's like anesthesiology where they're like, we don't actually know

450
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,640
Speaker 1: why and how this works, but it.

451
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,200
Speaker 6: Works exactly right.

452
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 4: Which interestingly, I mean, the field of anesthesiology led to

453
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 4: a scientific study of consciousness and like what is consciousness?

454
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 4: Because it's like, it's an interesting thing to contemplate when

455
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 4: you're like putting people asleep, and so.

456
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 2: Where do they go right and at what point is

457
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 2: AI conscious?

458
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 4: Right exactly? So the thing about AI in that regard

459
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 4: is like, yeah, even I mean, it's mysterious to even

460
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,399
Speaker 4: the engineers who have built it right on the one hand,

461
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,640
Speaker 4: On the other hand, it's really interesting because it's the

462
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:16,439
Speaker 4: first time that like a normal human with no prior

463
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,880
Speaker 4: knowledge of technology could interact with technology in a very

464
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 4: sophisticated way. Like you could be just a regular person

465
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 4: and tell chat GPT to write you a computer program

466
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 4: that's going to do X, Y and Z, and it

467
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 4: will do it, which is fascinating to me because it's

468
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 4: like the barrier between humans and computers is actually being

469
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 4: broken down by AI. But at the same time, I mean,

470
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 4: obviously it opens up all these areas of danger and

471
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 4: risk and all of these things. But on the other hand,

472
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:59,119
Speaker 4: it's actually taking It's almost like the tech industry and

473
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 4: the people who control technology, both in organizations and globally,

474
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 4: have been in the middle of this. They're like, trust us,

475
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 4: we know how this works, and you know, don't look

476
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,199
Speaker 4: behind the curtain because you won't understand. But you know,

477
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 4: we've got this and we'll just give you the things

478
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 4: that we think you need and call it now. It's

479
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 4: like people have the ability to kind of look inside

480
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 4: the machine a little bit and tinker around and say,

481
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 4: you know, I don't like the way this is. I'd

482
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 4: like it to be like this, or for me personally,

483
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 4: I you know, this works better for me. So it's

484
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 4: this really interesting time of like we're at this crossroads

485
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 4: where yeah, there's all this scary stuff about AI, but

486
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 4: at the same time, it's also like allowing normal people

487
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 4: to see inside the mystery cube totally and like reduce

488
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:50,880
Speaker 4: that barrier.

489
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 1: I was talking to my friend's cousin the other day,

490
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,159
Speaker 1: who is like a big Wall Street She's like a

491
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: software person on Walls Street, and we were asking her,

492
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 1: how was your day, and she was like, it was

493
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: actually really interesting. I solved the code that's been like

494
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 1: bothering our whole office for a week just from putting

495
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,880
Speaker 1: it in chat rept. And I was like, oh my god.

496
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 1: And she was like and it took me a week

497
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 1: to even think to do it, and this is what

498
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 1: our smartest mine's and I programmed chat rept to call

499
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:23,439
Speaker 1: me baby and.

500
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 5: Like everything about you. So we're using it for totally

501
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 5: different things.

502
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 6: But I was like, oh shit, this.

503
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 1: I could now make a code just like you said.

504
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 4: I got it.

505
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: But I could also isolate myself like a cult member

506
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 1: in my room making shit for twenty four hours a day,

507
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 1: which I want to do.

508
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 2: But also the companies that are serving us this product

509
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 2: are still companies that are serving us this product for

510
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 2: their own profit.

511
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 6: There were a huge amount of people.

512
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 2: Who were like, hey, we don't understand this yet, Please

513
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 2: don't roll this out this quickly. We need to put

514
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 2: in safeguards, and everyone was like, nah, we're just gonna

515
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 2: keep going. You know what, it does feel like this

516
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 2: idea of technological advancement is this sort of like thing

517
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 2: we're holding as the god above all gods, and it's

518
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,360
Speaker 2: the most important thing, and it must be as fast

519
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 2: as possible, and it must make as much money as possible,

520
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 2: and nobody wants to stop and question that. And whenever

521
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 2: nobody wants to stop and question it, my alarm bells

522
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 2: go off. You know, I do feel like the tech

523
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 2: world is very progress oriented and forward movement oriented, but

524
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 2: there's very little like pause, think critically, what do we

525
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 2: need to do to make this safer? And of course

526
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 2: some companies are doing that, but it worries me how

527
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 2: much like we hold up tech CEOs for example, as

528
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 2: like these sort of cult like figures, and then this

529
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 2: idea of the technology advancing as this ideal of like

530
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 2: some promise of the future that's going to solve all problem.

531
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 2: And that's always what you know, could say shit like.

532
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 4: That, right, It's it's all in the you know, in

533
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 4: the execution. It's like to me, there's no you know,

534
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 4: ultimate good or bad when it comes to technology, you know,

535
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 4: it is all in how it's executed. And like you said,

536
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 4: I mean chat GPT came along and there were no

537
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 4: like safeguards, and they kind of shifted from being you

538
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 4: know what seemed like sort of this you know, well

539
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 4: meaning group of technologists who wanted to create you know

540
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 4: it was like it was an set up as a

541
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 4: nonprofit and there were all these kind of like high

542
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 4: minded ideas about you know, what AI was going to do,

543
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 4: and it, you know, quickly and understandably went into this

544
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 4: area of like, oh my god, massive business potential, you know,

545
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 4: and then there was all out and the whole Sam

546
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 4: Altman thing and all of that. But like I remember,

547
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 4: like there was an interview I hadn't really been paying

548
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 4: attention to specifics of like the whole jet Chat GPT rollout,

549
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 4: and then I thought, you know, Sam Altman, he must

550
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 4: be like this like mega genius, you know, and I

551
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 4: just had this like inflated idea of him. And then

552
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 4: I saw him interviewed on some you know thing, and

553
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 4: I was, you know, desperately like searching for his genius,

554
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 4: you know, getting warmed to of like he's going to

555
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 4: say something really genius. In a moment, I'm just like,

556
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 4: this is just a regular guy.

557
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 6: Like this guy I.

558
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 4: Don't even know that I would want to talk to

559
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 4: him for very long at a party he was not.

560
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 4: And then I started to panic. You know. It's like

561
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 4: around that time that I read that article, and you know,

562
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 4: it was like who are these people? That are actually

563
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 4: at the controls, you know, do your point like are

564
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 4: these people that we should trust? Do we even know

565
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 4: who they are and what their motivations are and what

566
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 4: they what keeps them up at night? I mean, why

567
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 4: are we not able to? My husband was reminding me

568
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 4: there's so sci fi author that you know, wrote about

569
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 4: AI stuff, like really long time ago, you know, and

570
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 4: they in the book they created like a moral code

571
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 4: right for or an ethical code for AI, and it

572
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,239
Speaker 4: was like six or seven rules and it was like

573
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 4: if if the AI violated one of these rules, and

574
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 4: you know, it would like cease to exist or something,

575
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 4: and they were really yeah, it was really smart, it

576
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 4: was really clever. It was things like, you know, if

577
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 4: this could ever lead to any harm to anyone, if this?

578
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 4: And I was like, why why are we not talking

579
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,479
Speaker 4: about this in very practical terms, like as in this

580
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 4: needs to exist now, not like you know, some academic

581
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 4: journal talking about you know, the ethical implications of AI.

582
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 4: He's going to read. There's like a total there's like

583
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 4: two worlds right now around AI. There's the hype machine,

584
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 4: which is kind of what I feel I live in,

585
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 4: you know, when I you know, look at social media

586
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 4: and stuff. It's just like pumping with how amazing like

587
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 4: everything related to AI is. And then there's some of

588
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 4: your shadowy halls of like congress and academic journals where

589
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 4: they're actually contemplating the real you know, ethical qaundaries that

590
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 4: this presents, like that's.

591
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 5: Why we don't care.

592
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, it's like nobody really cares.

593
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 6: No, okay, well yeah.

594
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 4: But understanding the tech, like the thing is. I mean,

595
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 4: I think what I've realized is if you really hold

596
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 4: an understanding of it, it's like a wave, right, it's

597
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 4: moving really fast. You have to ride the wave. Like

598
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 4: it's very hard to just like step into it mid

599
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 4: stream because it's evolving so quickly. So if I got

600
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 4: on that wave, you know, around enterprise tech, let's say,

601
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 4: like you know, sixteen seventeen years ago, and I've just

602
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 4: been kind of surfing it, and so when new things happen,

603
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 4: it's like it's it's easy to assimilate that because I

604
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 4: had like a baseline of understanding. And I think, you know,

605
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 4: that's you know, thinking about a cult. I mean, I

606
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 4: think one of the powers of a cult is that

607
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 4: it's disorienting. It basically takes everything that you thought you

608
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 4: knew and you knew to be true and turns it

609
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 4: upside down so that you're now stripped of any sense

610
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 4: of selfness or logic or reason or critical things all

611
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 4: gone right. And I think when people step into the

612
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 4: realm of technology and they don't have an orientation, it

613
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 4: is kind of like that, it's like whoa, you know,

614
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 4: It's like I'm in wonderland. I don't understand how any

615
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 4: of this works, and so you're completely vulnerable in that

616
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 4: position to make good choices or even engage in good

617
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 4: conversations about you know what this is.

618
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 2: Right as someone who is a filmmaker, as a musician

619
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 2: mid journey and these different AI apps that are a

620
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 2: to create art that to me is like supposed to

621
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 2: be a human thing. Art is supposed to be for humans.

622
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 2: That is how that makes me feel. It makes me

623
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,439
Speaker 2: feel completely crazy and like the world is upside down.

624
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 6: Also, TikTok sometimes like.

625
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 2: The only reason I am like starting to now post

626
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 2: more on TikTok is because you literally like cannot be

627
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 2: a music artist in today's day and age without being

628
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 2: on TikTok. You are forced to engage with this technology.

629
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 2: It is the only way to get your music out there.

630
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 2: A lot of artists are posting videos about this, joking

631
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 2: about how, like, you know, the skill you actually need

632
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 2: to become a famous artist now is learning how to

633
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 2: make stupid fucking videos for the internet.

634
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 6: But it's true.

635
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 2: But I do feel I mean, like, you know, maybe

636
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 2: this is a stretch, and there are so many other

637
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 2: ways that technology can be more coercive and cult like,

638
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 2: but to me, I do feel coerced into using this technology.

639
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 2: That isn't my art, it's not my talent, it's not

640
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 2: what I want to do, but it is something that

641
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:52,359
Speaker 2: I have to learn if I want to make a

642
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 2: living or like get my art out into the world.

643
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 4: Which is exactly what's going on in organizations. You just

644
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 4: describe the plight of modern worker like, whatever your job

645
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 4: actually is, it's probably not technology. You know, that's not

646
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 4: your job. It's like, right, you know Ken's job in

647
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:14,359
Speaker 4: Barbie like beaches, you know, like, what's your job? Technology

648
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 4: not what it is, but they have to engage and

649
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:19,359
Speaker 4: they're very frustrated.

650
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 2: So what what are some of the things that you

651
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,839
Speaker 2: kind of tell people or teach about how to deal

652
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 2: with that.

653
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, So my work mainly is to run processes that

654
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 4: are human centered in their approach. So, you know, there's

655
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 4: this practice called human centered design, which is basically like

656
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 4: you can apply it to anything. But you walk into

657
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 4: a situation and you know, we're all kind of natural

658
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 4: problem solvers, right, So the first things you do are

659
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 4: kind of scan the environment and detect problems, and then

660
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 4: immediately your brain goes to, like, Okay, how am I

661
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 4: going to solve these problems? So that's kind of like

662
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 4: the typical, like what executives are doing most days is like,

663
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 4: here's a problem, I've got an idea, let's solve it

664
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 4: this way. But human centered design is very different in

665
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 4: the sense that you walk in you see there may

666
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 4: be some problems that you observe, probably a lot you

667
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 4: assume that you are not able to observe because you're

668
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,399
Speaker 4: not you know, you're an observer, and so you need

669
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 4: to sit down with people and interview them and talk about,

670
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 4: you know, how their work life is going, what difficulties

671
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 4: are they running into, what problems do they see? Da,

672
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 4: da da, And then you basically bring them into a

673
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 4: design process, a problem solving design process that's collaborative. And

674
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 4: so you know, my toolbox is tech because you know,

675
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 4: there's a lot of good things you can do with

676
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 4: tech if it's intentionally designed in the workplace. So you know,

677
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 4: but I don't want they don't have to think about that.

678
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,359
Speaker 4: All they have to do is tell me what it

679
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 4: is that they're trying to do better, and then you know,

680
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 4: our firm comes in to do the work of like,

681
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,720
Speaker 4: we can design something for you. We know what tools

682
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 4: you have available. It might be a tech they already have.

683
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 4: In a lot of cases. It is so because I'm

684
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 4: at the advantage of like I'm not selling tech, I'm

685
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,839
Speaker 4: selling our services, so I don't have to sell them

686
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 4: a new tool in order to make a living, which

687
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 4: is not the case with most people in tech. You know,

688
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 4: they're trying to sell a new thing, so they just

689
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 4: slap a new thing onto a broken old thing. It's

690
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 4: like the classic example that we run into all the

691
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,280
Speaker 4: time is like you have a crappy process around recruitment,

692
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 4: and instead of fixing the process, you know, the head

693
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 4: of HR is like, we need a new software. So

694
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 4: you know, they go out shopping and every single software

695
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 4: vendor has advertisement saying we're going to fix your process.

696
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 4: Your process is probably horrible and broken, and if you

697
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 4: buy our software, it's going to be fixed, and then

698
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 4: they just throw it in there, and of course it's

699
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 4: not fixed because it's the process. It's not the software

700
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 4: that was the problem in the first place. So it's like.

701
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 1: The pharmaceutical companies like eating healthier, They're like, it's like.

702
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 4: It's it's just and money. I mean, this is real money.

703
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 4: And the other interesting thing is, you know, and this

704
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 4: goes for every sector, but it's particularly painful for me

705
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 4: to see in the nonprofit sector because they don't have

706
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,359
Speaker 4: a lot of money to begin with, or they could

707
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 4: be spending it on something better. Is that, you know,

708
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 4: they get sold a bill of goods, like over and

709
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 4: over and over again, and by the time that realization

710
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 4: kicks in, you know, the salesperson is gone now they

711
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,359
Speaker 4: you know that usually the employees are left to pick

712
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 4: up the pieces and they're like, oh, now we have

713
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 4: to deal with this broken thing that doesn't even meet

714
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 4: our needs for the next five years until you know,

715
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:57,280
Speaker 4: we can buy another messed up solution. You know, they're

716
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 4: on this treadmill, and that's what we try to do

717
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 4: is get them off of that. What are the factors

718
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,919
Speaker 4: that are contributing to people's misery in this place, since

719
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 4: ninety nine percent of how people work these days is technology.

720
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 4: Technology is usually a big factor. It's not the only factor,

721
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 4: but focusing on it is certainly worthwhile. And it's interesting

722
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 4: that like all these employee well being you know things

723
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 4: and perks and all this stuff, like they never talk

724
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,359
Speaker 4: about the tech, which is what people that's like, how

725
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 4: people experience their company these days is.

726
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 2: Electronically at the like larger societal consumer level of what

727
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 2: you're talking about, Like, I wish that you existed for

728
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 2: these ubiquitous companies we all engage with every day that

729
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 2: are essentially controlling our minds. I mean, it's just not

730
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 2: like a conspiracy theorist, but like you know, like the

731
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 2: algorithms influence the way that we think they do.

732
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 4: You raise a very important point because this has been

733
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,800
Speaker 4: on my mind lately too, like around AI and stuff.

734
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 4: I'm like, if we you know, if we did imagine

735
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 4: we did that kind of exercise as a society. Let's

736
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 4: keep it to the United States for starters, and we said,

737
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 4: like like we do for organizations. We came in and

738
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:24,320
Speaker 4: we're like, what are the problems that you all are seeing?

739
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 4: You know, what do you actually need in your life

740
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 4: right now that you don't have, or like what's difficult

741
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 4: for you to do right now that you wish were easier,

742
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 4: and use technology as a tool to actually solve those problems.

743
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 4: That would be amazing, that would be like revolutionary, and

744
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 4: the fact that instead it's, like you're saying, it's being

745
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 4: you know, the power of that very powerful technology is

746
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 4: being trained to basically get us all to either buy

747
00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:01,840
Speaker 4: more things, hide under our beds, combination of the two.

748
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 2: Click scroll it doom scroll doom scroll doom scroll, hate each.

749
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 4: Other, hate each other, be scared about the world and

750
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 4: who live in it, you know, and not engage in

751
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 4: any kind of like real problem solving, you know, just

752
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 4: throwing shade. I think what's most interesting is if you

753
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 4: really dig into it and if you could adopt the

754
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 4: posture of like tech is neither good nor bad, right, Like,

755
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:35,320
Speaker 4: if you can at least suspend you know, belief otherwise

756
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 4: for a moment and think, well, it's just a tool, right,

757
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 4: It's just a like a utility. Then who is actually deciding,

758
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 4: you know, who's making the decisions that it's only being

759
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 4: used for one thing or you know, only for evil,

760
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 4: Like is there anyone that's actually deciding that, Or is

761
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 4: that just because it's like sliding into that momentum, because

762
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 4: that's how oursciety is, you know. It's like it's just

763
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 4: a tool. We've always had, this capitalist society. We've always had,

764
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 4: you know, so much focus and energy and concentration on

765
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,839
Speaker 4: just making more money and making us into better consumers.

766
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 4: So of course tech is going to be used as

767
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 4: the next best tool for that. But why are we

768
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:23,839
Speaker 4: not then also harnessing it for good? Like where are

769
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 4: all the people that should be harnessing it for good?

770
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 4: Like nobody's stopping them, right, Like, I mean when I

771
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 4: come into an organization, it's not like the tech companies

772
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 4: are saying, no, you can't use it in that way.

773
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 4: I mean they love that it's like helping people more

774
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 4: in that context, right, I mean in that context they

775
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 4: make money either way, so they don't really care. All

776
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 4: they care about that people keep paying for their licenses.

777
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 4: So if people are happier with it and it's actually

778
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 4: working for them, they're like, great, you know, that's good

779
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 4: for everybody.

780
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 2: Right, And there are, of course so many examples of

781
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:58,799
Speaker 2: tech being used for good in the nonprofit space.

782
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 6: My boyfriend works for a nonprofit.

783
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,359
Speaker 2: He has to engage with apps that help with you know,

784
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 2: like food recovery. And I have another friend who's a

785
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,240
Speaker 2: nonprofit app designer and they're they're doing it to help people.

786
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 2: But I guess, like for me, it's like, yes, it

787
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 2: is a tool, but also there are choices being made

788
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:18,439
Speaker 2: at the top that we don't really get a say

789
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 2: in for.

790
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 6: How those tools work.

791
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 2: Yes, there's a tool, but what about the like consequences

792
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 2: of the tool not having enough guardrails or checks and balances.

793
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I agree, I think, you know, but

794
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 4: it's a fine line, right because it's like you don't

795
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 4: want to live in a police state where everything we

796
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 4: use and interact with is governed. But at the same time,

797
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 4: for sure, tech is being used in all these cool

798
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:48,279
Speaker 4: ways and like you know, you see that, and but

799
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 4: is it being harnessed at the highest level of like

800
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,319
Speaker 4: how do we get out of this shitty situation we're

801
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 4: in as a society? Like at that level, I mean,

802
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 4: I don't see that there's a lot of movement around

803
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 4: like harnessing technology in that way and kind of engaging

804
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 4: in an exercise around like thinking about how we as

805
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 4: a society like harness technology for good. I think there's

806
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 4: conversations that are starting to happen that are mostly like

807
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 4: in the negative, like ooh, we have to you know,

808
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 4: police social media and you know, make it safer for

809
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 4: kids or something like that. You know, that's great, but

810
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 4: that's not the same thing. That's like a negative you know,

811
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 4: like kind of problem oriented way of approaching things like

812
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 4: I'm talking about like kind of flipping that and being

813
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 4: like what kinds of solutions could hate like just fresh

814
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 4: with technology that aren't like something right right, They aren't

815
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,799
Speaker 4: solving the problem of technology. They're actually just shifting the

816
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 4: conversation in a different All of my.

817
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 1: My chat GPT and I have discovered how to get

818
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 1: rid of a bunch of the world's trash by sending

819
00:44:58,440 --> 00:44:59,320
Speaker 1: it into space.

820
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 5: I wish really that somebody could actually do that. Was

821
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 5: focusing on it and feeling us stupid.

822
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 6: Until the trash meteor.

823
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:15,880
Speaker 1: No, we were getting it way out of the atmosphere.

824
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:21,400
Speaker 1: But like I guess, if you're making people happier, creating

825
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 1: a better world, they're less apt to buy stupid things.

826
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 4: So right, yeah, there's definitely a disincentive I think on

827
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,720
Speaker 4: the part of the companies do that route.

828
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 2: That's a good point, Megan, like you do need to

829
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 2: make people feel like they need something in order to

830
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 2: be profitable, and if profit is the central motive, then

831
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 2: that's that's going to be problematic.

832
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 4: I mean, speaking of social media and influence, I mean,

833
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:49,839
Speaker 4: I feel like that's the road that it's taking us down.

834
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 4: The feeling of exasperation and helplessness, and that is very

835
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:57,360
Speaker 4: much like a narrative around tech. It's sort of like

836
00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,879
Speaker 4: tech is taking over. There's nothing we can do about it.

837
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:02,720
Speaker 4: AI is going to come and take my job away.

838
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,400
Speaker 4: And we're basically like I have people every day like

839
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 4: if I mention I'm working in tech, we basically say

840
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,800
Speaker 4: something along the lines of I think AI is basically

841
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 4: going to destroy us, like it's going to be terminator

842
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 4: and that's it, you know. And and that's like the

843
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:26,320
Speaker 4: new doomsday scenario, which also is so cult Yeah, so true.

844
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 1: You create that end of the world thinking because then

845
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: you're powerless.

846
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 4: You can't do anything about it. It's inevitable is going

847
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:36,239
Speaker 4: to take your job away, and you're going to be

848
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 4: poor and destitute and probably then get exterminated by some

849
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 4: you know, cop robot and it's inevitable, so.

850
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 6: There's nothing to do worry about it.

851
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 4: Just stay online and you know, troll people and just

852
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 4: you know, mind your own business until scroll scroll away terminated.

853
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:57,439
Speaker 4: But I feel like in a way, it's like any

854
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 4: time in history because we've always been facing these looming crises.

855
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:04,399
Speaker 4: I mean, there there's never been a time when that's

856
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 4: not been the reality. I think the problem is that

857
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 4: it feels inescapable right now because we live so much

858
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 4: of our lives online. It's like we're getting almost have

859
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 4: like this image of we're just getting squeezed into this,

860
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:24,839
Speaker 4: like you know, into the computer, Like you know, we're

861
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 4: we're walking around all day like this, and so we're

862
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:29,440
Speaker 4: like kind of.

863
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,280
Speaker 5: Just holding her phone in front of her face, out.

864
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 4: Of reality, and and that's what's happening to us. So

865
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 4: it's like I think it's kind of imperative on all

866
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,959
Speaker 4: of us to break out of that, like break out

867
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 4: of the computer.

868
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 5: Like, yeah, how do we do that?

869
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 6: Yeah?

870
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:53,319
Speaker 4: You know, like I mean, get perspective back on like

871
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 4: what the computer is supposed to be. It's a tool.

872
00:47:56,719 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 4: It's not our lives, Like it's not a substitute for reality.

873
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 4: Even though the tech overlords would want us to think that,

874
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,239
Speaker 4: but that's not true. Like it's not reality. It's it's

875
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:11,319
Speaker 4: it's like a it's like a movie. It's like, you know,

876
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:13,799
Speaker 4: do you want to go jump into I mean, yeah,

877
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 4: we all want to like visit La La Lands or whatever,

878
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 4: but you know, it's like do you want to live there?

879
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 4: Like no, because it's not real, So why would you,

880
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 4: you know? I mean, these are the lines that are

881
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 4: getting blurred now, but I don't know. That's how I

882
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 4: think about it.

883
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 2: But at the same time, we are being exposed to

884
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 2: information that is very real and you know, scenarios in

885
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 2: the world that we didn't have access to witnessing before.

886
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 4: I think the problem now is it's almost impossible. Like

887
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 4: my husband and I talk about this a lot, like

888
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:47,399
Speaker 4: it's almost impossible, and it will become impossible very soon.

889
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 4: We'll reach that like singularity where it will be impossible

890
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,799
Speaker 4: to tell what's real and what's not real online. I mean,

891
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 4: it's already happening, like I can. I can create a

892
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:59,839
Speaker 4: deep fake video of anyone in five seconds and will

893
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:03,919
Speaker 4: be totally convincing and nobody will know whether it's real

894
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:06,760
Speaker 4: or not. And so this is going to be used

895
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 4: for all kinds of purposes. It already is just like,

896
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 4: you know, bots were such a big deal and the

897
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 4: past few elections, I mean, imagine that on steroids, Like

898
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:22,240
Speaker 4: it's going to be crazy. So for that reason, it's

899
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,800
Speaker 4: it's really important that we you know, that the critical

900
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:30,320
Speaker 4: thinking and the kind of self protections that we need

901
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 4: to sort of discern reality from fiction are like it's

902
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:38,280
Speaker 4: at the same time that we crucially need those skills,

903
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 4: it's like they're getting dulled down to almost being like undetectable,

904
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 4: Like the skills of critical thinking, critical thinking discernment, like

905
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:53,960
Speaker 4: being able to question the first and even use your instincts,

906
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 4: your inner voice, and your inner knowledge to say, like

907
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:01,360
Speaker 4: does this feel right to me? Like I mean, I

908
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:03,880
Speaker 4: have a six year old, and like she's not learning

909
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 4: these things at school. This is not baseline skills that she,

910
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:11,320
Speaker 4: you know, should have at this age, because she's already

911
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:12,840
Speaker 4: engaging heavily in tech.

912
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 2: I wish I had more societal power to demand that

913
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:19,440
Speaker 2: critical thinking classes be taught in elementary school and a

914
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:22,720
Speaker 2: junior high and high school and in college and to adults.

915
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:23,319
Speaker 6: Absolutely.

916
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 2: I was just preparing a video that I'm doing on

917
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 2: certainty and was, I'm kind of going to be recapping

918
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 2: some things we've talked about on this podcast with other researchers,

919
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 2: which include like how when something is repeated, it feels

920
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 2: more true to us with something rhymes, it feels more

921
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 2: true when something when it's in like a snappy meme

922
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 2: that's like really simple and easy to understand, Like that

923
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:43,920
Speaker 2: feels more true.

924
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:47,760
Speaker 5: Like things feel true for reasons.

925
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:50,640
Speaker 2: That are not reflective of what actually makes them true,

926
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:54,240
Speaker 2: and without a baseline of understanding of that and knowing

927
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 2: that you do have to engage with slower thinking and

928
00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 2: not just being on autopilot when you're online. To me,

929
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 2: that's just like such a critically important skill for all

930
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 2: of us to have, and we are all losing it

931
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 2: by being on the social media.

932
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 4: The concept that reality is complicated and nuanced and not

933
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 4: black and white at all is like getting completely lost

934
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 4: on everyone, you know, because it's we're not trainable if

935
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 4: we exert those critical thinking skills and actually see beyond

936
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,879
Speaker 4: the talking points and the TikTok videos. I was having

937
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 4: this conversation yesterday with a woman you know who's helping

938
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 4: me with like the book publicity and stuff, and I

939
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:40,360
Speaker 4: was saying like, you know, what's my concept? Like another

940
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:42,719
Speaker 4: one of our clients was like the culture CEO. You know,

941
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 4: it's like you get that, you know what that means?

942
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 4: I don't really, but you.

943
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:50,239
Speaker 1: Know.

944
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 4: So it's like I was like, okay, you know what's

945
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 4: my thing? And I'm like, I don't. You know, my

946
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:58,800
Speaker 4: message is kind of complicated and nuanced. It's not something

947
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:01,879
Speaker 4: that can be digested in a SoundBite. And like I'm

948
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:04,720
Speaker 4: okay with that. And if that means that I don't

949
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:10,240
Speaker 4: have like five million followers you know on X or whatever,

950
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:13,319
Speaker 4: you know, that's fine, Like I don't you know, I'd

951
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:16,319
Speaker 4: rather just stay true to the message than sell it

952
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 4: to the maximum amount of people. And I think that's

953
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 4: the problem. We're all being trained to dumb down our

954
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:26,719
Speaker 4: points of view and our messaging and our content to

955
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:30,719
Speaker 4: your point, so that it is mass digestive, so that

956
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:34,879
Speaker 4: it's benign basically, right. It's like, yeah, the power as

957
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 4: has been taken out of it. It's a real problem

958
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 4: because if the audience isn't there for these you know,

959
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:49,960
Speaker 4: complicated reality based messages and conversations, then you know, then

960
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 4: you're just speaking into a void, and like what good

961
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 4: is that? You know, so it's like you're in this.

962
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:57,759
Speaker 4: I imagine that's kind of what your quandary is, right,

963
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 4: It's like, I want to make this content. I want

964
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 4: to make it meaningful because I'm trying to reach people

965
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 4: with a meaningful message, but it's like people aren't able

966
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 4: to receive it because they've all you know, they've all

967
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:12,320
Speaker 4: turned into you know, balls of jello or something.

968
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:15,960
Speaker 2: I also think, though, that social media skews our perception

969
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 2: of other people and what they actually want, because when

970
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:22,440
Speaker 2: I'm online and I'm seeing people, maybe like in my outgroup,

971
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:25,480
Speaker 2: I'm like, you're being fucking crazy, you have no interest

972
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:27,400
Speaker 2: in critical thinking, And then if I engage with them

973
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:30,160
Speaker 2: in real life, I'm like, oh, you like actually think

974
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 2: really similarly to me, and know just plumbing at it

975
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:34,920
Speaker 2: from a different perspective, or like maybe you haven't been

976
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:38,680
Speaker 2: exposed to this information that I've been exposed to. Like,

977
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:41,400
Speaker 2: I do think that social media makes us feel like

978
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 2: everyone is more extreme than maybe they are or are

979
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 2: capable of being, even if they are like currently in

980
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:51,759
Speaker 2: the extreme land. I do think the the optimist in

981
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:55,319
Speaker 2: me still believes that most people people are capable of

982
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 2: more thoughtful engaging.

983
00:53:58,719 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 4: It's just like comfortable.

984
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:01,719
Speaker 1: We have to be a little bit more used to

985
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:04,040
Speaker 1: being uncomfortable instead of certain.

986
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 4: You know, certain culturyer's time. I mean this content is

987
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 4: an example, like we're having long form conversation. Podcasts are popular,

988
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:17,879
Speaker 4: you know, as a as a medium. I think, yeah,

989
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:20,400
Speaker 4: it's interesting though, because it's like I think about it

990
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 4: from like a technological you know, tools and design standpoint.

991
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:28,319
Speaker 4: It's like a lot of the social media platforms just

992
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 4: don't you know, they kind of force that kind of communication.

993
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:36,160
Speaker 4: You know, you can't. I mean, it doesn't, it doesn't

994
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:38,759
Speaker 4: give itself to long form content, but like people want

995
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,840
Speaker 4: to engage with each other. It's kind of this interesting problem,

996
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 4: like is it possible even to meaningfully engage like on

997
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 4: a platform where you have to like post a short

998
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:50,319
Speaker 4: video or you can't go over a certain number of characters?

999
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:54,359
Speaker 4: Like what should it actually be used for, like you know.

1000
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 1: Or not use like negative comments boost you on the

1001
00:54:58,080 --> 00:54:59,120
Speaker 1: algorithm too.

1002
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:02,760
Speaker 2: So it's just obviously we all can grasp the idea

1003
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 2: that like TikTok makes us.

1004
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 5: And by the way, I think TikTok can be awesome.

1005
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 2: I don't want to sound like TikTok hater, like TikTok

1006
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:11,600
Speaker 2: can be so good for spreading information that that people

1007
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 2: are able to access otherwise. But I think intuitively we

1008
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 2: understand that like it does diminish our attention span whatever.

1009
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:20,320
Speaker 6: It's just it's moving, so complete.

1010
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:23,880
Speaker 2: But what they posted that I thought about, a study

1011
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:26,120
Speaker 2: that they posted about which I actually thought was interesting.

1012
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 5: Was that we actually enjoy it less when.

1013
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 2: Enjoy that level of short form content, like the quicker

1014
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:38,239
Speaker 2: that content is, we actually do not enjoy it as

1015
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:40,440
Speaker 2: much as we do when engaging with long form content.

1016
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 2: They compared short TikTok videos to longer form YouTube videos

1017
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:46,920
Speaker 2: and found that people were more engaged and more interested

1018
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:48,000
Speaker 2: in the long form content.

1019
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 5: But we become like addicted to.

1020
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:54,040
Speaker 2: This scrolling of this really fast, small, snackable content, even.

1021
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:56,440
Speaker 5: Though we don't like it as much. It's so interesting.

1022
00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm.

1023
00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 4: I see it with children. I mean, just observing my daughter.

1024
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 4: You know, we've made a choice to not overly restrict

1025
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:11,080
Speaker 4: her access to technology and screens, and I guess, admittedly,

1026
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:14,920
Speaker 4: you know it's a risky decision, but it's also like

1027
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:18,439
Speaker 4: I'm also interested if there's a way that we can

1028
00:56:18,719 --> 00:56:22,359
Speaker 4: like work with this instead of against it, you know,

1029
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:26,040
Speaker 4: because like even when we were choosing schools, you know,

1030
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:29,160
Speaker 4: there's a Waldorf school here, and you know they it's

1031
00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:31,920
Speaker 4: like no screens. You can't have screens at home. We

1032
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:36,799
Speaker 4: we don't even want the kids wearing any like characters

1033
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:40,959
Speaker 4: on their T shirt because those kids that have never

1034
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:44,320
Speaker 4: seen that character might feel like left out or excluded.

1035
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:45,240
Speaker 4: That would have been.

1036
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:48,480
Speaker 5: Great for me as a child with no television.

1037
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:50,279
Speaker 4: I have no idea what the.

1038
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:54,880
Speaker 8: Fuck exactly you would be like incopole, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1039
00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:57,799
Speaker 8: And I just felt like, you know, I really thought

1040
00:56:57,840 --> 00:57:01,239
Speaker 8: about it, because it's, you know, the serious decision is apparently.

1041
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:03,719
Speaker 4: You know what right out are you going to choose here?

1042
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:06,839
Speaker 4: And I was just like, I do not feel right

1043
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 4: about kind of creating a fake firewall between my child

1044
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:16,880
Speaker 4: and the reality, which is that everybody's using technology for

1045
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 4: all kinds of things and she should be aware of that.

1046
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:22,360
Speaker 4: And so it's kind of forced me into this place

1047
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:26,000
Speaker 4: where I have to try to find tech that she

1048
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 4: will engage with that's actually enriching to her versus things

1049
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 4: that are time wasting. And it can't be one or

1050
00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:38,000
Speaker 4: the other because there's no way I can get her

1051
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 4: to do enriching stuff, you know, one hundred percent of

1052
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 4: the time. But it's interesting, you know, I'm still very

1053
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 4: much like learning as I go. But at the same time,

1054
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:50,320
Speaker 4: she'll sit down and she'll watch a one and a

1055
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:54,320
Speaker 4: half hour you know, Disney movie and be super happy

1056
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:56,960
Speaker 4: and engaged with that too. So I mean kind of

1057
00:57:57,000 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 4: to your point, like maybe there's more pleasure coming from

1058
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:03,960
Speaker 4: the you know, the more in depth long form content.

1059
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 2: It just all comes back to for me, like we

1060
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:09,760
Speaker 2: do need to engage with people offline, and we do

1061
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 2: need to create offline communities, and which is why cults, which.

1062
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:15,360
Speaker 6: Is why we cults.

1063
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:20,680
Speaker 1: Yes, how do we create offline communities that are not cults,

1064
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:22,120
Speaker 1: that are not cut right?

1065
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:22,800
Speaker 5: You can do it.

1066
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:23,640
Speaker 6: We can do it.

1067
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 4: We have to reclaim our sense of community in the

1068
00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:32,280
Speaker 4: real world. Like I think one thing that social media

1069
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 4: has taught us is that your people are out there somewhere, right, Like,

1070
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:42,720
Speaker 4: nobody in this world is alone and unique and someone

1071
00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:45,360
Speaker 4: that nobody else can understand. And I think, you know,

1072
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:47,440
Speaker 4: like if you grew up in a small town like

1073
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 4: I grew up in a town with like two thousand people,

1074
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 4: or if you grew up in a cult, you know,

1075
00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 4: you you often grow up with this feeling. But you know,

1076
00:58:57,240 --> 00:58:59,680
Speaker 4: pre technology, like there was no Internet when I was

1077
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:03,360
Speaker 4: a kid, Like you feel like, oh my god, I'm

1078
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 4: a weirdo and nobody understands me, and like this is

1079
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:09,040
Speaker 4: how life is going to be, and it's very sad

1080
00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:13,320
Speaker 4: and depressing. And so there's this amazing opening up of

1081
00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:16,280
Speaker 4: the world that social media has given us, where it's

1082
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:19,200
Speaker 4: like taught us that there's somebody out there that's just

1083
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:21,720
Speaker 4: like you, that feels the same things that you feel,

1084
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:24,320
Speaker 4: that understands you, that cares about you. You know, that's amazing.

1085
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:26,760
Speaker 1: That's that's what you should meet up in person and

1086
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:29,720
Speaker 1: still have other friends and not form a cult with

1087
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 1: each other totally exactly, and you should use social media

1088
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:37,000
Speaker 1: and use tech, but you should also have real life

1089
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:39,600
Speaker 1: connections and just spread it all out.

1090
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:43,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, like the truth that like there's a lot of

1091
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:46,560
Speaker 4: good in this world and like, you know, but it

1092
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:49,200
Speaker 4: is like the human connection is what it's all about.

1093
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:52,480
Speaker 4: Right at the end of the day. We're all humans.

1094
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:56,040
Speaker 4: We all need to feel connected, and we should give

1095
00:59:56,080 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 4: ourselves like as much you know, possibility for that as

1096
01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:04,120
Speaker 4: we possibly can. You know. It's like and the real

1097
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:06,600
Speaker 4: world stuff is really important.

1098
01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 1: And by connected you mean not like, oh, I just

1099
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:12,320
Speaker 1: shared a video that got oh yeah, you mean like

1100
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:14,080
Speaker 1: smiling at somebody.

1101
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:20,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, ideas, so miserating, crying, you know, over a drink,

1102
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:22,520
Speaker 4: like all the things that we need to do as

1103
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:26,560
Speaker 4: human beings to feel normal and stable. I think COVID

1104
01:00:26,680 --> 01:00:31,040
Speaker 4: was a really interesting like social experiment in that way,

1105
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:33,200
Speaker 4: like not in a good way, but in the fact

1106
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:36,840
Speaker 4: that we all became so isolated that we couldn't actually

1107
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:42,400
Speaker 4: be together in person. And I think, you know, my

1108
01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:46,960
Speaker 4: feeling is a public health former public health professional, you know,

1109
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:49,880
Speaker 4: I keep reading the data because I feel like the

1110
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:54,040
Speaker 4: impact that that had on mental health was more extreme

1111
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:57,360
Speaker 4: than I think any of us have really fathomed at

1112
01:00:57,360 --> 01:01:03,160
Speaker 4: this point that will be for years prepairing, the kind

1113
01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:07,240
Speaker 4: of damage that was done to people in their lives,

1114
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:10,880
Speaker 4: especially people who were struggling to begin with, and totally

1115
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:16,560
Speaker 4: so you know, it's it's real, and so yeah, I

1116
01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:19,240
Speaker 4: think it's it's like that that's the anti cult, right,

1117
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:22,640
Speaker 4: Like what's the anti cult? The anti cult is being

1118
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:28,440
Speaker 4: together in community with no like control agenda, you know.

1119
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:32,640
Speaker 4: In zen I'm saying that because my book is done

1120
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:35,040
Speaker 4: in the art of digital transformation. So I like bring

1121
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:37,240
Speaker 4: in some of these Zen concepts, and there's this Zen

1122
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:43,320
Speaker 4: concept of the beginner's mind, and that is basically exactly

1123
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:48,320
Speaker 4: what I think critical thinking actually is, which is you

1124
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:50,520
Speaker 4: you have to strip that cognitive bias. I mean, that

1125
01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:53,120
Speaker 4: is really powerful, and that's part of the problem, right,

1126
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:56,880
Speaker 4: So you have to kind of come in blank slate.

1127
01:01:57,400 --> 01:01:59,880
Speaker 4: It's part of human centered design too, and assume that

1128
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:04,600
Speaker 4: you know nothing, like take away whatever you think you

1129
01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:09,800
Speaker 4: know about this and just start there and contemplate it.

1130
01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:12,120
Speaker 4: And I think that is that that's part of the

1131
01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:15,480
Speaker 4: slow thinking too. It's like, you know, really take it in,

1132
01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:18,040
Speaker 4: but take it in as if it were just a

1133
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:21,920
Speaker 4: brand new thing, you know, kind of almost in a

1134
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:25,840
Speaker 4: way like playing dumb, like just kind of like acting

1135
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:28,960
Speaker 4: like your ignor, like cheese, huh, I've never seen a

1136
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:34,120
Speaker 4: TikTok video before, you know, like kind of examining it

1137
01:02:34,160 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 4: as if you just like landed from outer space. It's

1138
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:41,919
Speaker 4: a really interesting exercise because you know, I often am

1139
01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:47,160
Speaker 4: surprised at some of the assumptions that I will arrive

1140
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:50,120
Speaker 4: at if I do it unconsciously. But then I'm also

1141
01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:54,400
Speaker 4: equally surprised, you know, at some of the conclusions that

1142
01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:56,960
Speaker 4: I come to when I'm like starting from that blank

1143
01:02:57,240 --> 01:03:02,800
Speaker 4: slate and some of them I find personally unfavorable, Like

1144
01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:05,360
Speaker 4: I'm like, oh, geez, do I really is that?

1145
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:07,480
Speaker 6: But I think, like that's just a.

1146
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:11,160
Speaker 4: Really vibe with who I think I am, or like

1147
01:03:11,960 --> 01:03:14,120
Speaker 4: the people I hang out with or something. This is

1148
01:03:14,200 --> 01:03:17,200
Speaker 4: like really out of left field, and that's uncomfortable.

1149
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:19,880
Speaker 5: I've said this a million times and then I'll say

1150
01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:20,200
Speaker 5: it again.

1151
01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:23,440
Speaker 2: We have to make that process cool. We have to

1152
01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:29,120
Speaker 2: make that part of our culture, like being able to say, like, huh,

1153
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:32,600
Speaker 2: I guess I was wrong about that, like or what

1154
01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:36,680
Speaker 2: part of this am I not examining and that I

1155
01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:38,760
Speaker 2: need to think about in a new way, and like

1156
01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:41,720
Speaker 2: making that be something that we like hold up as

1157
01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:44,360
Speaker 2: our standard of like what is cool and good.

1158
01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:46,600
Speaker 5: I don't know how you do that, but that's my mission.

1159
01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:51,440
Speaker 4: I think it really does all come back to the

1160
01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:57,240
Speaker 4: critical thinking piece and being human centered, which is to

1161
01:03:57,320 --> 01:04:01,640
Speaker 4: say that we also like accept our flaws as human beings,

1162
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:04,200
Speaker 4: and we accept that we are human beings and we're

1163
01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:09,240
Speaker 4: vulnerable to the forces of technology. We have needs that

1164
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:13,200
Speaker 4: might be unfulfilled by technology, and that's okay too. That

1165
01:04:13,240 --> 01:04:17,640
Speaker 4: doesn't make us less than that we all have a

1166
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 4: right to understand the tech that is part of our lives,

1167
01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:26,280
Speaker 4: and that we have a right to question that technology

1168
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:31,320
Speaker 4: and the people who are behind it. Yeah, that's okay too,

1169
01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:37,600
Speaker 4: and that we should. You know that it's not about

1170
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:43,080
Speaker 4: making technology go away or you know, turning everything into

1171
01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:47,200
Speaker 4: a police state where everything is so tightly governed. It's about,

1172
01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:51,480
Speaker 4: I think with any form of you know, social activism

1173
01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:56,800
Speaker 4: or awareness raising, it's like, let's be conscious consumers, let's

1174
01:04:56,800 --> 01:05:01,720
Speaker 4: be conscious about how we engage, and let's let's demand

1175
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:05,760
Speaker 4: better right from the tech industry. Let's demand better because

1176
01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:09,520
Speaker 4: they're people too, Like, you know, most people that I've

1177
01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:11,800
Speaker 4: met in tech are really good people, and like you

1178
01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:15,400
Speaker 4: can talk to them a lot about what they see

1179
01:05:15,560 --> 01:05:19,240
Speaker 4: and the problems that they're seeing. They see it, but

1180
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:22,560
Speaker 4: they're you know, silence is complicity or whatever. You know,

1181
01:05:22,600 --> 01:05:26,120
Speaker 4: they're just machine exactly, and they're part of it. They

1182
01:05:26,160 --> 01:05:28,800
Speaker 4: need a job to you know. It's like, let's have

1183
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:33,280
Speaker 4: compassion for everybody who's part of this. You know, even

1184
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:37,080
Speaker 4: Sam Altman. Sorry, Sam, you know you're probably really smart

1185
01:05:37,080 --> 01:05:37,560
Speaker 4: in person.

1186
01:05:37,640 --> 01:05:41,960
Speaker 5: It was we know you're listening to the I know you're.

1187
01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:50,680
Speaker 7: Listening, so at it. But those are the things that

1188
01:05:50,760 --> 01:05:55,000
Speaker 7: I think would really get us a little bit further

1189
01:05:55,240 --> 01:05:56,960
Speaker 7: from where we are now. And I think, you know,

1190
01:05:57,080 --> 01:06:01,080
Speaker 7: like Megan and I when we chatted before all of this,

1191
01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:04,680
Speaker 7: you know, I was saying that it's basically that thing

1192
01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:08,000
Speaker 7: of you know, I feel stupid, I feel left out.

1193
01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:10,120
Speaker 7: I don't know what's going on, so I'll just like

1194
01:06:10,240 --> 01:06:12,720
Speaker 7: stick my head in the stand and you know, ignore

1195
01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:14,880
Speaker 7: it until it goes away. But technology isn't going to

1196
01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:17,320
Speaker 7: go away, so then we have to deal with it.

1197
01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:18,800
Speaker 4: We really do.

1198
01:06:19,120 --> 01:06:21,240
Speaker 1: And I have to learn how to turn my computer

1199
01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:24,320
Speaker 1: on and office. Yeah, something that's going to have to happen.

1200
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:30,840
Speaker 4: And then on maybe AI isn't even interested in taking over,

1201
01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:33,000
Speaker 4: like what's in it for that.

1202
01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:36,360
Speaker 1: True, I've never even thought of it.

1203
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:39,760
Speaker 5: It's like I don't want to be who's.

1204
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:45,080
Speaker 2: It's almost a program and their AI for that someone's

1205
01:06:45,160 --> 01:06:48,840
Speaker 2: doing it, you know they are also military is literally

1206
01:06:48,840 --> 01:06:49,200
Speaker 2: doing it.

1207
01:06:49,280 --> 01:06:52,240
Speaker 4: But yeah, no military, I know. But like I mean,

1208
01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:53,920
Speaker 4: at the end of the day, if we're talking like

1209
01:06:54,120 --> 01:06:57,440
Speaker 4: end days here, you know, it's not a great end

1210
01:06:57,480 --> 01:07:05,560
Speaker 4: game for AI. I mean, yeah, kind of needs Yeah, yeah.

1211
01:07:04,200 --> 01:07:06,439
Speaker 5: The next twenty years will be so.

1212
01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:12,000
Speaker 4: Crazy yeah, buckle up a ride.

1213
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:15,040
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Sarah. This has been so thought

1214
01:07:15,040 --> 01:07:18,440
Speaker 1: provoking and cannot wait to rage. Your bucket comes out

1215
01:07:18,520 --> 01:07:22,040
Speaker 1: January fifteenth, so we'll do a reminder when it drops.

1216
01:07:22,520 --> 01:07:25,840
Speaker 4: And tell us the name again then and the art

1217
01:07:25,840 --> 01:07:30,960
Speaker 4: of digital transformation leading a mindful redesign of the digital enterprise.

1218
01:07:31,480 --> 01:07:32,000
Speaker 1: I love it.

1219
01:07:34,280 --> 01:07:36,280
Speaker 6: Thank you so much, thank you.

1220
01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:41,800
Speaker 2: This has been lovely, lovely conversation began. Do you have

1221
01:07:41,880 --> 01:07:43,360
Speaker 2: any particular takeaways?

1222
01:07:43,400 --> 01:07:46,360
Speaker 5: I know I for me like I come back.

1223
01:07:46,680 --> 01:07:48,760
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, y'all know I don't shut up

1224
01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:50,400
Speaker 2: about the algorithm.

1225
01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:52,000
Speaker 1: You love a good algorithm.

1226
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:53,760
Speaker 2: I hate yes, talk.

1227
01:07:56,520 --> 01:07:56,720
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1228
01:07:56,760 --> 01:07:59,560
Speaker 2: The ways that all of our beliefs are reinforced is

1229
01:08:01,440 --> 01:08:05,760
Speaker 2: so so culty to me and also leaders themselves, Like

1230
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:08,520
Speaker 2: what what do you think are for you? What are

1231
01:08:08,520 --> 01:08:10,479
Speaker 2: the cultiest parts of tech?

1232
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:11,320
Speaker 5: You know what?

1233
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:13,680
Speaker 1: Because the real interesting part to me is that it's

1234
01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:17,120
Speaker 1: like anesthesiology and nobody even knows how it's fucking working.

1235
01:08:17,439 --> 01:08:22,160
Speaker 1: So that leads to this very weird atmosphere of awe.

1236
01:08:22,439 --> 01:08:25,160
Speaker 1: That's the that's the biggest takeaway for me, where it's

1237
01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:28,599
Speaker 1: like this is not of this world. I don't know

1238
01:08:28,640 --> 01:08:31,160
Speaker 1: what is happening how it's doing it, and neither does

1239
01:08:31,200 --> 01:08:33,640
Speaker 1: anyone else, and it's creeping me out and now I

1240
01:08:33,680 --> 01:08:35,080
Speaker 1: feel like I worship it.

1241
01:08:35,520 --> 01:08:37,439
Speaker 6: Yes, That's where I get stuck.

1242
01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:38,120
Speaker 3: What about you?

1243
01:08:38,360 --> 01:08:44,120
Speaker 2: My cousin is a is a neuroscientist specializing in anesthesiology,

1244
01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:46,519
Speaker 2: and like trying to get to the bottom of that question,

1245
01:08:46,600 --> 01:08:48,800
Speaker 2: because yeah, like it is so fucking weird that we

1246
01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:51,839
Speaker 2: don't understand what's happening in the brain. Same with andy depressants.

1247
01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:54,519
Speaker 2: We don't really We have like a general idea about

1248
01:08:54,520 --> 01:08:58,400
Speaker 2: how what's probably happening, but like not for sure, not really.

1249
01:08:58,840 --> 01:09:01,120
Speaker 3: They're just like, here we this works.

1250
01:09:01,160 --> 01:09:01,680
Speaker 1: We don't know why.

1251
01:09:01,880 --> 01:09:06,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Like the mechanistic research is not really has

1252
01:09:06,360 --> 01:09:10,080
Speaker 2: you know, not caught up, which is interesting. Yeah to me,

1253
01:09:10,200 --> 01:09:12,880
Speaker 2: I'm like, I think we'll get there. I think that

1254
01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:18,720
Speaker 2: like even AI itself can eventually tell us probably, But

1255
01:09:19,000 --> 01:09:22,200
Speaker 2: I for me, what is what it always comes back

1256
01:09:22,240 --> 01:09:24,679
Speaker 2: to is that humans are designing this and they are

1257
01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:28,439
Speaker 2: making choices, whether they're conscious of their bias or not.

1258
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:32,200
Speaker 2: We are all everyone in the world is being impacted

1259
01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:36,880
Speaker 2: by these Like tech designers own internal bias, and the

1260
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:39,680
Speaker 2: CEOs of those companies who are directing them and their

1261
01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:44,720
Speaker 2: choices algorithmically, you know, to focus on revenue like that

1262
01:09:44,760 --> 01:09:47,479
Speaker 2: sort of thing. It is so crazy that we all

1263
01:09:47,600 --> 01:09:52,160
Speaker 2: use the same four companies for absolutely everything in our lives,

1264
01:09:52,240 --> 01:09:55,280
Speaker 2: and we and our faith and our trust are just

1265
01:09:55,320 --> 01:09:59,200
Speaker 2: in their hands. I say this all the time, But

1266
01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:02,400
Speaker 2: next twenty years will be really really interesting to see

1267
01:10:02,560 --> 01:10:06,360
Speaker 2: what changes culturally and if there ever is a demand

1268
01:10:06,439 --> 01:10:12,080
Speaker 2: for more transparency or more health oriented tech will we'll

1269
01:10:12,080 --> 01:10:13,960
Speaker 2: see or maybe we'll all be dead by then. Who knows,

1270
01:10:14,320 --> 01:10:15,679
Speaker 2: because I killed us.

1271
01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:18,439
Speaker 3: We don't know, and that's exciting.

1272
01:10:19,400 --> 01:10:23,920
Speaker 1: Thanks, thank you all for listening to another episode of

1273
01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:26,960
Speaker 1: trust Me. We can't wait to see you again next week,

1274
01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:30,240
Speaker 1: and as always, remember to follow your gut, what's up

1275
01:10:30,280 --> 01:10:31,440
Speaker 1: for d flax.

1276
01:10:31,280 --> 01:10:40,320
Speaker 2: And never ever trust me Hie. Trust Me is produced

1277
01:10:40,320 --> 01:10:43,560
Speaker 2: by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator.

1278
01:10:43,120 --> 01:10:45,080
Speaker 1: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

1279
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:47,439
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1280
01:10:47,640 --> 01:10:50,520
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1281
01:10:50,680 --> 01:10:54,040
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

1282
01:10:54,120 --> 01:10:55,760
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

1283
01:10:55,960 --> 01:10:59,320
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and oh La Lola on Twitter.

1284
01:10:59,040 --> 01:11:01,840
Speaker 1: And I am Megan el's Sabeth eleven on Instagram and

1285
01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:03,839
Speaker 1: Bebraham Hicks on Twitter.

1286
01:11:04,000 --> 01:11:06,280
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.