WEBVTT - The Headless Men, Part 1

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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<v Speaker 3>My name is Robert Lamb and I am Joe McCormick.

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<v Speaker 3>And Hey, it is no longer October. But is this

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<v Speaker 3>still a topic that we planned on doing in October

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<v Speaker 3>and never got to Possibly. We'll let you guess if

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<v Speaker 3>that is the case or not.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And you might be like, I don't know, Joe

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<v Speaker 2>and Robert, I don't know if I wont Halloween content

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<v Speaker 2>and the early part of November, shouldn't we be doing

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<v Speaker 2>Christmas content now? No, absolutely not. There will be Christmas

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<v Speaker 2>content in due time, but it will not be this month.

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<v Speaker 2>It'll barely be next month. So you're getting more Halloween

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<v Speaker 2>content whether you want it or not.

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<v Speaker 3>Are your Halloween decorations still up or do you get

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<v Speaker 3>them down yet?

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<v Speaker 2>We took them down over the weekend, but the jack

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<v Speaker 2>O Landin's are still out there. They haven't turn to

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<v Speaker 2>jelly yet, but I'm having to give them the tap

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<v Speaker 2>test every day. If they jiggle, then it's dangerously close

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<v Speaker 2>and I have to get them to the backyard and

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<v Speaker 2>spill them there.

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<v Speaker 3>I know exactly what you're saying. We have squirrels very

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<v Speaker 3>slowly eating our pumpkins. It's like they take one bite

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<v Speaker 3>out of them every day.

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<v Speaker 2>It's weird. We have plenty of squirrels around here, but

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think they ever messed with the pumpkins. But

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<v Speaker 2>it has been I feel like more people are chronicling

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<v Speaker 2>the decay and or consumption of their jack lanterns and

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<v Speaker 2>pumpkins this year, and it's been nice to watch.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm curious why just the like one bite and run away,

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<v Speaker 3>Like it can't be that delicious if they don't stay

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<v Speaker 3>to take a few more bites.

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<v Speaker 2>Unless it's you know, just gnawing. It's gnawing action. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not sure.

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<v Speaker 3>But Okay, what was this Halloween related topic that we

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<v Speaker 3>didn't get to in October and they're covering now.

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<v Speaker 2>It's headlessness, Yeah, which ties in nicely with the idea

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<v Speaker 2>of jackal lanterns. I mean, these two concepts are are

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<v Speaker 2>connected in many ways. Yeah, we're going to discuss the

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<v Speaker 2>idea of headless entities, mostly in the human imagination, but

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<v Speaker 2>it probably makes sense to think about what's lacking in

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<v Speaker 2>these fantastic creatures and what we tend to take for granted.

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<v Speaker 2>It's we're going to get into just the concept of

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<v Speaker 2>why do creatures have heads? What is a head? Even

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<v Speaker 2>it's easy to just take that whole idea for granted,

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<v Speaker 2>because I mean, the basics I think are pretty obvious,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, we have to stop and look them

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<v Speaker 2>in the mirror and realize. A head is the top

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<v Speaker 2>or front part of an organism, the upper or anterior

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<v Speaker 2>division of the animal body that contains the brain, most

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<v Speaker 2>of the sense organs, and the mouth. It is the

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<v Speaker 2>communication array as we've described it many times before. It's

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<v Speaker 2>the matter consumer, and it's also the nerve center of

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<v Speaker 2>the organism.

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<v Speaker 3>Now, most of the animals you can probably think of

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<v Speaker 3>off the top of your head do have heads, but

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<v Speaker 3>actually a head is not a necessary part of what

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<v Speaker 3>it means to be an animal. There are animals without heads,

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<v Speaker 3>So that raises the question of why do certain animals

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<v Speaker 3>have heads and not others? What causes this difference?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we have to realize that heads emerge in organisms

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<v Speaker 2>over the course of evolutionary time and a process referred

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<v Speaker 2>to as cephalization, during which the mouth, sense organs and

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<v Speaker 2>nerve ganglia moved toward the front or what would we

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<v Speaker 2>would come to think of at the front of the creatures,

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<v Speaker 2>resulting in head morphology and the emergence of complex brains

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<v Speaker 2>and arthropods, cephalopod mollus and invertebrates. So these organisms tend

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<v Speaker 2>to be cephalized or semi cephalized. And would that mean

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<v Speaker 2>that a creature in fantasy that has lost its head

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<v Speaker 2>and continues to move around and act and behave is decephalized.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I think that would be the term. The head

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<v Speaker 3>is removed, a thing is decephalized. But whether or not

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<v Speaker 3>a thing can continue to act without its head, it

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<v Speaker 3>probably depends on the degree to which it was originally

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<v Speaker 3>cephalized as a matter of its innate anatomy. I'll get

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<v Speaker 3>back to that in a few minutes. Actually, So I

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<v Speaker 3>was thinking about this, and it probably helps to put

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<v Speaker 3>cephalization within the broader evolutionary history of bilateral animals or bilatarians.

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<v Speaker 3>These are animals that have a left side and a

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<v Speaker 3>right side of the body that are roughly symmetrical, that

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<v Speaker 3>are mirror images of each other. So we are bilatarians,

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<v Speaker 3>and again, most of the animals you can think of off

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<v Speaker 3>the top of your head are bilatarians. The symmetry does

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<v Speaker 3>not have to be exact. It refers to the overall

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<v Speaker 3>body plan and how the animal develops in its earliest

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<v Speaker 3>phases of growth. So even in the case of animals

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<v Speaker 3>that happen to have evolved wildly asymmetrical features. One example

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<v Speaker 3>we've talked about on the show before is male fiddler crabs,

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<v Speaker 3>which have one claw that's much bigger than the other,

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<v Speaker 3>in some cases half of the crab's body weight, So

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<v Speaker 3>you know, roughly on the scale of a human with

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<v Speaker 3>one regular sized hand and then another hand that's four

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<v Speaker 3>feet in diameter and weighs eighty pounds, even that animal

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<v Speaker 3>is a bilatarian because the animal's body plan has bilateral

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<v Speaker 3>symmetry overall, with the exception of the claw, And it's

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<v Speaker 3>also a question of its evolutionary clade. It is descended

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<v Speaker 3>from the evolutionary clade of bilateral animals. So bilateral symmetry

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<v Speaker 3>is not just a feature of an animal body, but

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<v Speaker 3>a particular branch on the evolutionary tree, going back to

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<v Speaker 3>a common ancestor. As I was saying a minute ago,

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<v Speaker 3>though most of the animals you can think of are bilateral,

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<v Speaker 3>not all animals are. There are lots of sea creatures

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<v Speaker 3>like sponges, jellyfish, hydri and corals, that are animals but

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<v Speaker 3>are not Bilatarians. We don't know for sure when exactly

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<v Speaker 3>this split took place, when the last common ancestor of

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<v Speaker 3>all bilatarians split off from the ancestors of other animals,

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<v Speaker 3>but based on what I've been reading, I think it's

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<v Speaker 3>probably sometime between roughly five hundred and fifty and six

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<v Speaker 3>hundred million years ago. Is clearly it pre dates the

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<v Speaker 3>Cambrian Explosion, because in the Cambrian era, starting around five

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<v Speaker 3>hundred and fifty million years ago, you see a great

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<v Speaker 3>diffusion or profusion of different animal body plans that exhibit

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<v Speaker 3>bilateral symmetry. So clearly their last common ancestor was before that.

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<v Speaker 3>There's still debate about exactly what that animal was like,

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<v Speaker 3>but whatever its exact features were, it is mind boggling

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<v Speaker 3>to imagine the common ancestor of all of the world's fish, crabs, cats, squid, slugs,

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<v Speaker 3>barnacles and worms all in one body.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you can't just combine all those things in your

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<v Speaker 2>head and say, like, all right, a little bit of

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<v Speaker 2>the cat, a little bit of the squid. It's a

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<v Speaker 2>different sort of arithmetic in play.

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<v Speaker 3>But one of the things, apart from bilateral symmetry that

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<v Speaker 3>makes Bilatarians unique is their degree of cephalization. That they

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<v Speaker 3>these animals really started to develop heads in ways that

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<v Speaker 3>non biletarian animals did not. And the authors of a

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<v Speaker 3>paper I was looking at, they they define cephalization as

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<v Speaker 3>quote anterior concentration, and remember anterior means front, so front

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<v Speaker 3>facing concentration of nervous tissue, sensory organs, and the appearance

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<v Speaker 3>of dedicated feeding structures surrounding the mouth. Now, one question

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<v Speaker 3>I was wondering about was how to even decide which

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<v Speaker 3>is the anterior part of an animal that doesn't already

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<v Speaker 3>have a head. I think the answer is it's where

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<v Speaker 3>the mouth is. Makes sense. Yeah, Now to get some

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<v Speaker 3>more perspective on why and how a head developed in Bilatarians,

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<v Speaker 3>I was reading a few chapters from a book. It

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<v Speaker 3>was a book called Creatures of acxis The Rise of

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<v Speaker 3>the Animal Kingdom, published by Hill and Wang two thousand

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<v Speaker 3>and seven by an author named Wallace Arthur.

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<v Speaker 2>So.

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<v Speaker 3>The author of this book, Wallace Arthur is an evolutionary

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<v Speaker 3>biologist who was a professor at the University of Galway

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<v Speaker 3>in Ireland. I looked him up and it seems like

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<v Speaker 3>his work focused a lot on the interplay between evolution

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<v Speaker 3>and development and the emergence of animal body plans, which

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<v Speaker 3>is what we're talking about here, And in a couple

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<v Speaker 3>of chapters of this book he has a very nice,

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<v Speaker 3>plain language summary of the likely pressures leading early by

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<v Speaker 3>leetarians to acquire ahead. So one interesting thing to think

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<v Speaker 3>about here is that the early evolution of the animal

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<v Speaker 3>lineage found different types of symmetries. So the first animals

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<v Speaker 3>were not symmetrical, and there are animals today that are

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<v Speaker 3>not symmetrical in their bodies, like sponges. You know, you

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<v Speaker 3>can't cut them down the middle and get a mirror

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<v Speaker 3>image in any direction. Then there came animals with radial symmetry,

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<v Speaker 3>where the body is symmetrically reproduced around an axis in

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<v Speaker 3>the middle. And a great example here would be a jellyfish. Jellyfish,

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<v Speaker 3>they're not bilaterally symmetrical, but they're radially symmetrical. Finally, there

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<v Speaker 3>came animals with bilateral symmetry, tracing back to a common

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<v Speaker 3>ancestor that is known in the literature as the ur bileatarian,

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<v Speaker 3>so biletarian with the letters you are in front of it,

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<v Speaker 3>you are meaning like original or first. And again we

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<v Speaker 3>don't know exactly what this animal was like, but Arthur

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<v Speaker 3>thinks the best guess is that it was somewhat similar

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<v Speaker 3>to modern flatworms. This, he acknowledges this is debatable, and

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<v Speaker 3>I was reading a bit about the modern debate here

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<v Speaker 3>it seems like this is still one of the one

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<v Speaker 3>of the possible pictures of what this creature was like.

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<v Speaker 3>So Arthur asks a question, if you compare a bilaterally

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<v Speaker 3>symmetrical flatworm with a radially symmetrical animal like a jellyfish,

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<v Speaker 3>can we really say that one is more complex than

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<v Speaker 3>the other? He writes, quote, does a flatworm have more

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<v Speaker 3>different types of parts than a jellyfish? Well, not really. Yes,

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<v Speaker 3>it has left and right sides, which a jellyfish does not,

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<v Speaker 3>but that's about it. Although the flatworm has head and

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<v Speaker 3>tail ends while the jellyfish does not, The jellyfish has

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<v Speaker 3>a top side and an underside, the latter having the mouth,

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<v Speaker 3>which pretty much amount to the same thing. And the

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<v Speaker 3>jellyfish has tentacles while the flatworm does not. And yet

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<v Speaker 3>despite this basic parity, or maybe you might even say

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<v Speaker 3>that the jellyfish seems more complex, we do tend to

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<v Speaker 3>think of bilaterally symmetrical animals as more complex than animals

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<v Speaker 3>with radial symmetry. Why do we think of them that way. Well,

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<v Speaker 3>Arthur says that there could be a good reason for this,

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<v Speaker 3>and it's that bilateral symmetry led to subsequent steps of

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<v Speaker 3>increasing complexity. Bilateral symmetry was not itself necessarily more complex,

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<v Speaker 3>but it became a platform for future complexity to emerge,

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<v Speaker 3>making the point that some changes in evolution can seem

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<v Speaker 3>really important to us because they are necessary precursors to

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<v Speaker 3>other developments, maybe millions of years down the line, and

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<v Speaker 3>you couldn't always necessarily predict what those future developments would

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<v Speaker 3>be at the time. Like if we were standing there

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<v Speaker 3>in the pre Cambrian era looking at the orbilatarian, you

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<v Speaker 3>wouldn't necessarily be able to look at this little flatworm

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<v Speaker 3>like creature or whatever it was that it looked like

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<v Speaker 3>some kind of little little organism that has left and

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<v Speaker 3>right sides that roughly mirror each other and think, well, yes,

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<v Speaker 3>this is going to be big, This will turn into

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<v Speaker 3>spiders and cats and octopuses.

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<v Speaker 2>But that is.

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<v Speaker 3>Exactly what happened. It became this sort of platform for

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<v Speaker 3>future development. But to come back to the question, what

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<v Speaker 3>is it about these early Bilatarians that favors the evolution

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<v Speaker 3>of a head. Well, Arthur argues that it is the

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<v Speaker 3>peculiarities of pre cam animal movement. It had to do

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<v Speaker 3>with how animals move. So he says, you know, jellyfish,

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<v Speaker 3>this animal with radial symmetry swims around in the open sea.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, it floats in the water column. It kind

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<v Speaker 3>of pulses to swim where it wants. And then you

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<v Speaker 3>might have other animals that have radial symmetry, like the

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<v Speaker 3>sea anemone. This lives it's a sessile organism, so it

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<v Speaker 3>lives most of its life by sticking itself to a

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<v Speaker 3>surface and staying there, you know, grabbing things from the water. Flatworms, however,

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<v Speaker 3>creep across the two dimensional surfaces of solid objects like

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<v Speaker 3>rocks in the water. So you can imagine what he

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<v Speaker 3>thinks is likely the form of the orbiletarian traversing the

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<v Speaker 3>face of a flat boulder in an archaic lagoon. And

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<v Speaker 3>so he zeros in on the different ways that these

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<v Speaker 3>creatures move. For the jellyfish with radial symmetry floating in

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<v Speaker 3>the water, Arthur says, there is little reason to think

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<v Speaker 3>of any direction as forward or backward. All directions are

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<v Speaker 3>basically the same. The sessile sea an enemy doesn't generally

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<v Speaker 3>travel around, so travel isn't a big issue for it.

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<v Speaker 3>But for the flatworm like or biltarian, there is a

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<v Speaker 3>very definite forward and backward regime in the way that

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<v Speaker 3>this animal moves. You can think of the difference between

0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:23.439
<v Speaker 3>a car and an aerial drone. You know, the jellyfish

0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:25.400
<v Speaker 3>might be more like the aerial drone. It can kind

0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:28.280
<v Speaker 3>of go in whatever direction a car has to like

0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:32.679
<v Speaker 3>aim its movement. It crawls, it creeps along on a

0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:33.680
<v Speaker 3>forward path.

0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:36.320
<v Speaker 2>That's a good way of putting it. Yeah, yeah, drones

0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:37.760
<v Speaker 2>versus cars.

0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:41.600
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, now, no, there's absolutely nothing wrong with moving like

0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:44.560
<v Speaker 3>a drone, you know, the jellyfish, and there's nothing wrong

0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:48.480
<v Speaker 3>with these other lineages. Jellyfish can be highly successful without

0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:51.720
<v Speaker 3>a brain and with limited range of behaviors. They're doing

0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:54.080
<v Speaker 3>just find how they are, and this leads to what

0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:57.840
<v Speaker 3>Arthur calls an evolutionary cul de sac. You know, they're

0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:00.880
<v Speaker 3>just successful in the way they already are. But for

0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:06.200
<v Speaker 3>the orbiletarian, with a definite bias for forward movement, there

0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:09.480
<v Speaker 3>is a lot of reason to differentiate the front of

0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:12.080
<v Speaker 3>the body from the back. There are reasons this animal

0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:15.920
<v Speaker 3>needs to change based on the way it moves. Arthur writes, quote,

0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:18.679
<v Speaker 3>it is more important to be able to detect the

0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:21.640
<v Speaker 3>features of the area you are moving into than the

0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:24.880
<v Speaker 3>one you're leaving behind. So it is to be expected

0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:28.440
<v Speaker 3>that natural selection will favor variants that have more of

0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:32.400
<v Speaker 3>their nerve net upfront. As part of this concentration of

0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:35.480
<v Speaker 3>perceptive powers at the front of the animal, in the

0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:38.360
<v Speaker 3>region that will one day merit the term head, there

0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:43.160
<v Speaker 3>may be rudimentary forward pointing outgrowths densely populated with sensory

0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:48.040
<v Speaker 3>nerves primitive antennae. And I was thinking about this. Maybe

0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:50.040
<v Speaker 3>this is getting a little too philosophical about it, but

0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:53.160
<v Speaker 3>you could argue that the evolution of the head in

0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:57.160
<v Speaker 3>animals is related to the nature of time. For an

0:14:57.280 --> 0:15:01.360
<v Speaker 3>organism that specializes in moving in one direction, moving like

0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:05.360
<v Speaker 3>a car, or like a flatworm moving forward along varied terrain,

0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:08.680
<v Speaker 3>the gathering of nerve cells and sensory organs in the

0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:12.840
<v Speaker 3>front reflects the fact of reality that it is more

0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:16.000
<v Speaker 3>important to sense and react to the future where you

0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:18.800
<v Speaker 3>are headed than to the past where you've just been.

0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:22.280
<v Speaker 3>The past can't hurt you anymore, but the future can no.

0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:24.240
<v Speaker 2>I think that's a good way of looking at it.

0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:27.360
<v Speaker 2>And it reminds me of some accounts. Off the top

0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:29.800
<v Speaker 2>of my head. I can't recall how accurate these are

0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:32.200
<v Speaker 2>held up to be, but there was at least an

0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:37.120
<v Speaker 2>idea that was put forward in Western writing that certain

0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:42.680
<v Speaker 2>members of Native Arctic groups kind of referred linguistically to

0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:49.440
<v Speaker 2>something in the distance as being tomorrow, like this relationship

0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:53.880
<v Speaker 2>between where you will be and how you think about

0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:57.360
<v Speaker 2>what is ahead of you. And yeah, I can sort

0:15:57.360 --> 0:15:59.480
<v Speaker 2>of see that reflected in what we're talking about here.

0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:02.640
<v Speaker 3>Oh, this came up when we were talking about the

0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:07.480
<v Speaker 3>cultural spatialization of time. Yeah, how people represent time in

0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:10.280
<v Speaker 3>as a type of physical space or the metaphor of

0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:13.120
<v Speaker 3>the space around them. And I don't remember if that

0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:16.120
<v Speaker 3>example in particular was thought to be valid, but that

0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:19.720
<v Speaker 3>there are cultural differences in the spatial metaphors people used

0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:22.880
<v Speaker 3>to describe, like the future in the past and so forth.

0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:27.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, but even today, you know, we can easily

0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:31.640
<v Speaker 2>think about everything that's coming into us is like our future.

0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:34.400
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's the future of our body in that

0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:36.880
<v Speaker 2>in what we are consuming the you know, the future

0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:40.000
<v Speaker 2>of our thoughts based on the sense data that's entering

0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:44.440
<v Speaker 2>entering our body and our mind and so forth. So

0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:47.120
<v Speaker 2>uh yeah, I can see this this holding up. Whereas

0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:50.160
<v Speaker 2>what is it like? I mean, to the limited extent

0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:52.160
<v Speaker 2>you can even ask this question, what is it like then?

0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:56.000
<v Speaker 2>For the creature that is not farward loaded, that is,

0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:58.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's kind of like an a nowness. It's

0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:02.320
<v Speaker 2>kind of perhaps something at least distantly comparable to that

0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:07.520
<v Speaker 2>state of calmness and serenity that we aspire to, you know,

0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:09.679
<v Speaker 2>or so many of us aspire to to try and

0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:14.840
<v Speaker 2>get out of that forward headlong you know, sprint into

0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:15.880
<v Speaker 2>the future.

0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:29.200
<v Speaker 3>Assume the mind of a jellyfish. Yeah yeah, okay. Next

0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:34.240
<v Speaker 3>ecological consideration pressure on the creation of a head in

0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:39.760
<v Speaker 3>the early piletarians. Arthur says that forward movement also favors

0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:42.879
<v Speaker 3>the evolution of a front facing mouth. If you think

0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:45.440
<v Speaker 3>about this, this will make sense. It's kind of obvious.

0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:48.840
<v Speaker 3>Like if you feed by taking things into an orifice

0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:51.919
<v Speaker 3>in your body, it's best to be able to aim

0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:56.480
<v Speaker 3>your body movement to engulf food matter with that orifice.

0:17:56.880 --> 0:17:59.239
<v Speaker 3>So like, in the same way that it wouldn't make

0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:02.320
<v Speaker 3>sense to build a combine harvester with its intake on

0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:05.359
<v Speaker 3>the side. Right, you'd want it in the front of

0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:07.640
<v Speaker 3>the vehicle so you can aim it at the thing

0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:09.200
<v Speaker 3>you're trying to harvest.

0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:13.760
<v Speaker 2>Essentially an eat the future approach. Basically we've covered so.

0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:18.080
<v Speaker 3>Far right, So aiming the mouth orifice at food and

0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:22.960
<v Speaker 3>making sure food gets inside also requires extra motor control

0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:26.920
<v Speaker 3>around this region of the body. And this also favors

0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:31.000
<v Speaker 3>nerve cells being concentrated at the anterior or the front

0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:34.200
<v Speaker 3>of the bileatarian body. So nerve cells want to gather

0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:37.240
<v Speaker 3>there not just to sense what is ahead in your

0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:41.400
<v Speaker 3>movement schema, but also to control the mouth to eat

0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:44.560
<v Speaker 3>what is ahead in the movement schema. And you can

0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:47.840
<v Speaker 3>see this, this direct connection between nerve cell density and

0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:52.240
<v Speaker 3>eating behavior in an example that Arthur sites, which are

0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:56.400
<v Speaker 3>modern snails and slugs, some of the simpler bileateian animals

0:18:56.440 --> 0:19:00.680
<v Speaker 3>extant today. These creatures, he writes quote, have a arrangement

0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:03.920
<v Speaker 3>of mouth and nerve cells such that the nerves form

0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:07.600
<v Speaker 3>a ring around the mouth or the esophagus, and at

0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:11.320
<v Speaker 3>various points around this ring are expanded groupings of nerve

0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:15.879
<v Speaker 3>cells called ganglia or mini brains if you like. So

0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:19.520
<v Speaker 3>I love that. Of course, what begins as ganglia for

0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:22.159
<v Speaker 3>control of just like a mouth, you know, the eating

0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:26.520
<v Speaker 3>orifice could well evolve over millions of years into denser

0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:30.200
<v Speaker 3>and more complex structures of neurons, and eventually could even

0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:34.639
<v Speaker 3>become a brain. And so I thought this was fascinating.

0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:38.600
<v Speaker 3>According to Arthur's argument here, so much of the strange

0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:43.959
<v Speaker 3>and complicated and unpredictable evolutionary potential of the bileatarian body

0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:48.040
<v Speaker 3>plan arises out of the simple circumstance that these animals,

0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:52.439
<v Speaker 3>the Orbileatarians, had specific limitations on their range of movement,

0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:56.800
<v Speaker 3>that their world was a world of moving forward. One

0:19:56.800 --> 0:19:58.760
<v Speaker 3>more thing from this book I wanted to mention before

0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:01.800
<v Speaker 3>I move on is something that he talks about in

0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:04.600
<v Speaker 3>the next chapter, which is sort of the idea that

0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:09.040
<v Speaker 3>cephalization is not a binary It's not like you are

0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:13.520
<v Speaker 3>cephalized or not, but a question of degree. Some creatures

0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:17.919
<v Speaker 3>are strongly cephalized, others are more weakly cephalized. And to

0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:21.000
<v Speaker 3>illustrate this, Arthur begins by telling a story about a

0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:23.800
<v Speaker 3>time he was collecting centipedes from an area along the

0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:27.400
<v Speaker 3>coast of northeast England. He says he collected a number

0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:29.800
<v Speaker 3>of centipedes. He brought him back to the lab for examination,

0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:32.880
<v Speaker 3>where they seem to be functioning fine. Some of them

0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:35.920
<v Speaker 3>had injuries, like they might be missing legs or parts

0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:39.600
<v Speaker 3>of legs, but he explains that these centipedes have an

0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:43.840
<v Speaker 3>adaptation where they cover the stumps of their missing appendages

0:20:44.240 --> 0:20:47.840
<v Speaker 3>with a thick black substance that looks like tar, presumably

0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:51.840
<v Speaker 3>to seal off the wound and prevent anything that's on

0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:54.280
<v Speaker 3>the outside from getting in or anything on the inside

0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:55.000
<v Speaker 3>from getting out.

0:20:55.520 --> 0:20:57.760
<v Speaker 2>Seems like a solid approach, some sort of weird black

0:20:57.800 --> 0:20:59.120
<v Speaker 2>centipede sealant.

0:20:58.840 --> 0:21:01.960
<v Speaker 3>Okay, yep, yeap, seal it up. But then he came

0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:05.919
<v Speaker 3>across something weird, he writes, quote to my surprise, I

0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:10.040
<v Speaker 3>found that one specimen had lost its head and had

0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:14.840
<v Speaker 3>used that same black tar technique to seal the wound. Strangely,

0:21:15.119 --> 0:21:18.159
<v Speaker 3>it was moving around in a normal fashion, just like

0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:21.159
<v Speaker 3>all its friends who had retained their heads. It walked

0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:24.040
<v Speaker 3>in the way centipedes do, usually in a forward direction,

0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:28.240
<v Speaker 3>but it was also able to retreat backward from threatening stimulis,

0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:30.960
<v Speaker 3>such as my giving it a tap on its anterior

0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:33.800
<v Speaker 3>end with a pair of tweezers. Not only did it

0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:36.880
<v Speaker 3>do so for a considerable period in the lab hours,

0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:39.639
<v Speaker 3>but it had probably done so for an even longer

0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:43.480
<v Speaker 3>one days in the wild before I found it, because

0:21:43.680 --> 0:21:47.800
<v Speaker 3>the wound looked old. Inasmuch as you can tell these things. Wow,

0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:52.080
<v Speaker 3>So he says that this headless centipede eventually died because

0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:55.560
<v Speaker 3>it probably starved to death. No mouth means it can't eat.

0:21:56.320 --> 0:22:00.439
<v Speaker 3>But that's amazing. It's hard for us, being extremely highly

0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:04.480
<v Speaker 3>cephalized organisms, to imagine that, Like the first problem to

0:22:04.520 --> 0:22:07.199
<v Speaker 3>reach the crisis point with a headless animal would be

0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:10.040
<v Speaker 3>that it starves to death. And the difference here is

0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:13.399
<v Speaker 3>the level of cephalization in each organism. The centipede and

0:22:13.440 --> 0:22:17.159
<v Speaker 3>the human are both cephalized. They both have heads, but

0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:21.280
<v Speaker 3>the human is strongly cephalized and the centipede only weakly so.

0:22:21.320 --> 0:22:25.600
<v Speaker 3>In humans, control of the body functions is strongly localized

0:22:25.600 --> 0:22:27.760
<v Speaker 3>in the brain, which is in the head, and the

0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:31.480
<v Speaker 3>body really can't do anything without the brain. Centipedes, on

0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:33.960
<v Speaker 3>the other hand, they do have a brain of sorts

0:22:34.000 --> 0:22:36.199
<v Speaker 3>in the head. There is a cluster of nervous tissue

0:22:36.240 --> 0:22:39.160
<v Speaker 3>up there, but they also have clusters of nerve cells

0:22:39.160 --> 0:22:42.479
<v Speaker 3>in each body segment that work as a distributed system

0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:46.320
<v Speaker 3>of many secondary brains throughout the body. Even without the

0:22:46.320 --> 0:22:48.679
<v Speaker 3>brain in the head, the body segments can keep on

0:22:48.800 --> 0:22:52.400
<v Speaker 3>living and acting individually. They can make the centipede walk around,

0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:56.080
<v Speaker 3>react to stimuli, and so forth, but not forever. But

0:22:56.359 --> 0:22:59.200
<v Speaker 3>to come back to headlessness in nature, I want to

0:22:59.240 --> 0:23:05.080
<v Speaker 3>emphasize again that not every animal naturally has a head. Jellyfish,

0:23:05.160 --> 0:23:10.240
<v Speaker 3>for example, there's some disagreement to the extent to which

0:23:10.280 --> 0:23:13.240
<v Speaker 3>you should say they are cephalized, but they really don't

0:23:13.240 --> 0:23:16.240
<v Speaker 3>have anything you would normally call ahead. In fact, jellyfish,

0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:19.680
<v Speaker 3>you don't even have brains or hearts, or even blood

0:23:19.760 --> 0:23:22.480
<v Speaker 3>for that matter. They do have a nervous system, but

0:23:22.640 --> 0:23:26.120
<v Speaker 3>it is distributed throughout the body tissues without a central

0:23:26.200 --> 0:23:29.680
<v Speaker 3>like a major command center like a biletarian brain.

0:23:30.359 --> 0:23:34.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's fascinating and maybe a little treacherous right to

0:23:34.960 --> 0:23:37.280
<v Speaker 2>look at some of these organisms and ask questions like,

0:23:37.280 --> 0:23:40.040
<v Speaker 2>all right, where's the head? Where's the head at? Because

0:23:40.160 --> 0:23:44.639
<v Speaker 2>sometimes an animal that seems to be headless may just

0:23:44.680 --> 0:23:47.800
<v Speaker 2>be all head It's another way of sort of spinning it.

0:23:48.560 --> 0:23:51.160
<v Speaker 2>This was an argument I was reading about from some

0:23:51.200 --> 0:23:55.280
<v Speaker 2>researchers at Stanford University and UC Berkeley. This came out

0:23:55.320 --> 0:23:58.000
<v Speaker 2>I believed this earlier this month. In a paper published

0:23:58.000 --> 0:24:00.960
<v Speaker 2>in Nature, they found that ceased to once thought of

0:24:01.000 --> 0:24:05.440
<v Speaker 2>as headless, actually exhibit gene expressions associated with head development

0:24:05.520 --> 0:24:09.679
<v Speaker 2>all over their bodies. Meanwhile, genes related to torsos and

0:24:09.760 --> 0:24:13.880
<v Speaker 2>tails were largely absent, so you could, I guess, think

0:24:13.920 --> 0:24:18.120
<v Speaker 2>of them more as disembodied or never bodied heads than

0:24:18.160 --> 0:24:20.920
<v Speaker 2>you would think of them as a body without a head.

0:24:21.119 --> 0:24:25.000
<v Speaker 3>Another interesting fact about sea stars is that so they're

0:24:25.040 --> 0:24:28.560
<v Speaker 3>thought of as animals with radial symmetry, not bilateral symmetry,

0:24:29.000 --> 0:24:33.640
<v Speaker 3>but they are actually descended from Bileatrians, So these are

0:24:33.840 --> 0:24:38.200
<v Speaker 3>animals whose ancestors are part of that group. They did

0:24:38.240 --> 0:24:41.480
<v Speaker 3>have bilateral symmetry and they evolved to lose it.

0:24:43.040 --> 0:24:46.600
<v Speaker 2>The idea of something having a head in a body

0:24:46.640 --> 0:24:50.159
<v Speaker 2>and then becoming mostly head I was instantly reminded of

0:24:50.200 --> 0:24:54.800
<v Speaker 2>a character from Marvel comics named Modoc. Included a picture

0:24:54.800 --> 0:24:56.920
<v Speaker 2>for you here, Joe. You're not familiar with this guy,

0:24:56.960 --> 0:24:59.399
<v Speaker 2>but essentially I believe he was supposed to have been

0:24:59.400 --> 0:25:01.800
<v Speaker 2>a human at one point in the comics, and I

0:25:01.800 --> 0:25:06.719
<v Speaker 2>think definitely in the movies, and he has, through you know,

0:25:07.000 --> 0:25:11.439
<v Speaker 2>comic book events, become just this enormous head with much

0:25:11.440 --> 0:25:14.320
<v Speaker 2>smaller arms and legs hanging off of him. You know,

0:25:14.359 --> 0:25:16.600
<v Speaker 2>there's a sense that like even these may go eventually

0:25:16.640 --> 0:25:19.320
<v Speaker 2>because he doesn't need them. It's all you know, cerebral

0:25:19.359 --> 0:25:20.040
<v Speaker 2>power in there.

0:25:20.640 --> 0:25:23.760
<v Speaker 3>I notice a strange body feature here, which is that

0:25:23.840 --> 0:25:29.000
<v Speaker 3>Modoc's legs are not on the underside of his head body,

0:25:29.000 --> 0:25:31.760
<v Speaker 3>but the front of his head body, almost like little

0:25:31.840 --> 0:25:35.040
<v Speaker 3>tentacles or fe feeder jaws around the mouth.

0:25:35.760 --> 0:25:40.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, and this being, I guess, the first imagined

0:25:41.440 --> 0:25:44.240
<v Speaker 2>being that we've referenced here. It's something to keep in

0:25:44.320 --> 0:25:46.600
<v Speaker 2>mind with all of these is the question of like, okay, well,

0:25:46.640 --> 0:25:50.399
<v Speaker 2>what was literally intended with this character, but also like

0:25:50.720 --> 0:25:56.160
<v Speaker 2>how did the imaginations behind them? How did the creators

0:25:56.200 --> 0:25:59.200
<v Speaker 2>behind them sort of channel some of these ideas we've

0:25:59.240 --> 0:26:02.959
<v Speaker 2>already been discussed, either overtly or just sort of subconsciously,

0:26:03.080 --> 0:26:05.280
<v Speaker 2>Like what do we think of when we have a head,

0:26:05.680 --> 0:26:08.480
<v Speaker 2>what do we think of them when we imagine beings

0:26:08.800 --> 0:26:11.760
<v Speaker 2>that have lost their head, that have a much larger

0:26:11.800 --> 0:26:14.159
<v Speaker 2>head than a body, and so forth. Like there's a

0:26:14.200 --> 0:26:16.879
<v Speaker 2>lot of you know, overt and then sort of hidden

0:26:16.960 --> 0:26:17.760
<v Speaker 2>language in there.

0:26:17.800 --> 0:26:20.520
<v Speaker 3>I think, yes, in some ways, it's kind of hard

0:26:20.600 --> 0:26:24.840
<v Speaker 3>not to approach everything with a sort of vertebrate anatomical bias,

0:26:24.880 --> 0:26:29.000
<v Speaker 3>where you, you know, you are looking for the analogies

0:26:29.080 --> 0:26:32.200
<v Speaker 3>to the way your body is put together in everything

0:26:32.240 --> 0:26:34.360
<v Speaker 3>in the world, even in even in you know, non

0:26:34.440 --> 0:26:37.520
<v Speaker 3>living inanimate objects. I mean you often, Rob, I'm sure

0:26:37.520 --> 0:26:39.359
<v Speaker 3>you have this experience. You look at some kind of

0:26:39.400 --> 0:26:42.200
<v Speaker 3>inanimate object and look for the head or the legs

0:26:42.600 --> 0:26:43.160
<v Speaker 3>or whatever.

0:26:44.160 --> 0:26:46.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, And and on top of that, like the

0:26:46.800 --> 0:26:51.000
<v Speaker 2>other wrinkle for a human's especially is that in the

0:26:51.000 --> 0:26:53.760
<v Speaker 2>head we see a centralization of the nervous system on

0:26:53.840 --> 0:26:56.400
<v Speaker 2>the front and upper part of the creature amid its

0:26:56.400 --> 0:26:59.960
<v Speaker 2>sense organs in its mouth. It's the defining feature of

0:27:00.040 --> 0:27:02.920
<v Speaker 2>both humans and when humans are looking at animals, and

0:27:03.000 --> 0:27:06.480
<v Speaker 2>certainly animals, it's you know, it's become it's come to

0:27:06.480 --> 0:27:08.880
<v Speaker 2>be thought of as a center of personhood and self.

0:27:09.280 --> 0:27:12.200
<v Speaker 2>It is the face, you know, at the front part

0:27:12.200 --> 0:27:15.880
<v Speaker 2>of the head, if you will. And of course that

0:27:15.880 --> 0:27:19.040
<v Speaker 2>that factors into a lot of our conceptions of not

0:27:19.080 --> 0:27:22.760
<v Speaker 2>only people, animals, but also just inanimate things. We're always

0:27:22.760 --> 0:27:25.679
<v Speaker 2>looking for the face. We're looking for that that front

0:27:25.720 --> 0:27:32.080
<v Speaker 2>facing communication array of micro and macro expressions, you know,

0:27:32.720 --> 0:27:36.359
<v Speaker 2>and we can also couple that with this idea of

0:27:36.640 --> 0:27:40.879
<v Speaker 2>the head the face looking into the future, and what

0:27:41.000 --> 0:27:46.600
<v Speaker 2>happens when these two future gazing facial arrays see each other. Then, Oh,

0:27:46.640 --> 0:27:49.320
<v Speaker 2>you have to have all the computation. What does it

0:27:49.400 --> 0:27:52.560
<v Speaker 2>mean that this person is in my immediate future? Am

0:27:52.640 --> 0:27:55.720
<v Speaker 2>I going to eat them? Are we going to communicate

0:27:55.720 --> 0:27:57.760
<v Speaker 2>on seven level? Or are we going to turn our

0:27:57.800 --> 0:28:01.000
<v Speaker 2>eyes away and continue on our own forward core? Yeah?

0:28:01.040 --> 0:28:03.600
<v Speaker 3>I mean, for a second there, I was thinking about

0:28:04.040 --> 0:28:07.919
<v Speaker 3>the salients of faces. Why we notice faces everywhere? I mean,

0:28:07.920 --> 0:28:10.320
<v Speaker 3>we see faces in electrical outlets, and we see the

0:28:10.400 --> 0:28:14.080
<v Speaker 3>you know, the boxing octopus and the kadhook on the wall.

0:28:14.119 --> 0:28:17.080
<v Speaker 3>Everything is a face. Part of me wanted to interpret

0:28:17.080 --> 0:28:19.639
<v Speaker 3>that as a result of our highly social brains. You know,

0:28:19.680 --> 0:28:22.359
<v Speaker 3>we're always looking at other people's faces to try to

0:28:22.520 --> 0:28:25.040
<v Speaker 3>understand what they're thinking, how they're feeling towards us, and

0:28:25.080 --> 0:28:28.120
<v Speaker 3>all that. That is very important. But then it could

0:28:28.160 --> 0:28:31.520
<v Speaker 3>actually be even deeper than that in an ecological origin,

0:28:31.600 --> 0:28:36.040
<v Speaker 3>because of course, understanding like looking for the face of

0:28:36.080 --> 0:28:38.920
<v Speaker 3>a predatory animal could help you understand like, am I

0:28:39.240 --> 0:28:43.240
<v Speaker 3>in the attentional zone of this this big looking animal

0:28:43.280 --> 0:28:47.000
<v Speaker 3>over there? So it could go even deeper than social factors.

0:28:47.840 --> 0:28:49.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, that's a good point, and it goes back

0:28:49.720 --> 0:28:52.960
<v Speaker 2>to numerous things we've discussed, but most recently talking about

0:28:52.960 --> 0:28:55.200
<v Speaker 2>what happens when you meet eyes with just a household cat.

0:28:55.600 --> 0:28:59.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah know, and how that is maybe an anxious experience

0:28:59.480 --> 0:29:01.440
<v Speaker 2>for the cat because again, it doesn't have all these

0:29:01.520 --> 0:29:04.480
<v Speaker 2>layers of human cognition. It gets down to the basic

0:29:05.440 --> 0:29:08.760
<v Speaker 2>interactions that a creature like a house cat that is

0:29:08.760 --> 0:29:12.200
<v Speaker 2>both predator and prey would have when it's locking eyes

0:29:12.240 --> 0:29:15.560
<v Speaker 2>with another organism. And so on top of all that,

0:29:16.840 --> 0:29:20.680
<v Speaker 2>as we begin to venture into the world of fantastic beings,

0:29:20.720 --> 0:29:26.400
<v Speaker 2>imagined beings, creatures of mythology, folklore, and much more. Yeah,

0:29:26.440 --> 0:29:28.800
<v Speaker 2>it's like to imagine something without a head is of

0:29:28.800 --> 0:29:31.400
<v Speaker 2>course also to imagine something without a face, And you

0:29:31.440 --> 0:29:33.680
<v Speaker 2>could just you can easily just you could focus on

0:29:33.680 --> 0:29:35.960
<v Speaker 2>the facial aspect of this, and there's plenty of ways

0:29:36.000 --> 0:29:38.000
<v Speaker 2>to cut that apart. But then on top of that

0:29:38.080 --> 0:29:40.800
<v Speaker 2>this idea of here is a thing that has no

0:29:40.960 --> 0:29:45.040
<v Speaker 2>head or separated from its head, and knowing like what

0:29:45.040 --> 0:29:46.960
<v Speaker 2>that would mean for a human being, Like you said,

0:29:47.800 --> 0:29:52.240
<v Speaker 2>survival is not possible even for a very short period

0:29:52.280 --> 0:29:55.440
<v Speaker 2>of time. I mean there, of course, studies and there've

0:29:55.480 --> 0:29:58.560
<v Speaker 2>long been some fascination about to what degree a human

0:29:58.560 --> 0:30:02.440
<v Speaker 2>head can survive without its body. The answer still remains

0:30:03.000 --> 0:30:06.800
<v Speaker 2>not very long at all. So to take all of that,

0:30:06.960 --> 0:30:11.000
<v Speaker 2>these observations and knowledge about the importance of a human head,

0:30:11.040 --> 0:30:14.040
<v Speaker 2>the role that a head plays in a human's life

0:30:14.200 --> 0:30:17.320
<v Speaker 2>and personhood, what happens when that is cut away? What

0:30:17.400 --> 0:30:19.560
<v Speaker 2>happens when you have an imagine being that can live

0:30:19.640 --> 0:30:22.920
<v Speaker 2>without a head? And what does it mean? You know?

0:30:22.960 --> 0:30:26.719
<v Speaker 3>When I go back in my history of taking in

0:30:26.960 --> 0:30:29.640
<v Speaker 3>stories of headless beings, the main one that comes to mind,

0:30:29.720 --> 0:30:31.920
<v Speaker 3>of course, is probably not a big surprise, is the

0:30:31.920 --> 0:30:35.440
<v Speaker 3>headless Horseman story and Ichabod Crane and all that, which

0:30:35.480 --> 0:30:39.360
<v Speaker 3>has been realized in many you know, Halloween specials on

0:30:39.400 --> 0:30:42.080
<v Speaker 3>TV and stuff like that through all the years. And

0:30:42.280 --> 0:30:44.880
<v Speaker 3>one thing I always remember thinking about the headless horsemen

0:30:44.880 --> 0:30:46.600
<v Speaker 3>that made them different than other kind of ghosts and

0:30:46.640 --> 0:30:51.000
<v Speaker 3>monsters is that the headless horseman seemed less like a

0:30:51.240 --> 0:30:55.520
<v Speaker 3>personal entity and more like a machine or a robot

0:30:56.200 --> 0:30:59.640
<v Speaker 3>than most other types of monsters and ghosts. Do you

0:30:59.640 --> 0:31:00.760
<v Speaker 3>have this experience?

0:31:01.360 --> 0:31:03.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, And I think it's one of the reasons

0:31:03.320 --> 0:31:05.680
<v Speaker 2>that at times, I mean, there's also the effects level

0:31:05.720 --> 0:31:07.880
<v Speaker 2>of this, but it's one of one of the reasons

0:31:07.880 --> 0:31:11.160
<v Speaker 2>that at times filmmakers have struggled with portraying it. I

0:31:11.160 --> 0:31:13.880
<v Speaker 2>think of the Tim Burton film where you had Christopher

0:31:13.880 --> 0:31:16.320
<v Speaker 2>Walken playing the headless being, and sometimes you see his head,

0:31:16.400 --> 0:31:20.440
<v Speaker 2>you see his face, because that helps convey like the

0:31:20.480 --> 0:31:23.400
<v Speaker 2>intent and the horror of the thing. You take that away,

0:31:23.440 --> 0:31:25.760
<v Speaker 2>it's like, yeah, it's like a robot. It's like all action,

0:31:25.880 --> 0:31:30.280
<v Speaker 2>but without cognition, all like physical It's certainly still a

0:31:30.280 --> 0:31:35.520
<v Speaker 2>physical threat, but there is no mind communication. Will like,

0:31:35.560 --> 0:31:39.120
<v Speaker 2>you take this entire aspect of what it is to

0:31:39.200 --> 0:31:42.920
<v Speaker 2>be an entity in the physical world, and you remove

0:31:43.000 --> 0:31:46.080
<v Speaker 2>this huge slice of it. How do you reason with that?

0:31:46.200 --> 0:31:47.840
<v Speaker 2>How do you even comprehend it?

0:31:48.280 --> 0:31:50.120
<v Speaker 3>I guess part of it is that even with a

0:31:50.160 --> 0:31:54.720
<v Speaker 3>regular ghost, you know, this imagined entity that doesn't behave

0:31:54.800 --> 0:31:58.880
<v Speaker 3>by normal biological rules, we still make biological inferences about it.

0:31:58.920 --> 0:32:01.760
<v Speaker 3>So like with a ghost, a monster, you can tell

0:32:01.800 --> 0:32:04.440
<v Speaker 3>you're in danger if it looks at you. You know,

0:32:04.600 --> 0:32:08.000
<v Speaker 3>like you are still tracking its gaze to understand what

0:32:08.120 --> 0:32:10.360
<v Speaker 3>its state of mind and attention is doing. And with

0:32:10.400 --> 0:32:12.320
<v Speaker 3>a headless beast. You can't do that.

0:32:12.960 --> 0:32:25.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So we're going to begin to go through some

0:32:25.160 --> 0:32:28.080
<v Speaker 2>various ideas that, you know, especially with with what we've

0:32:28.080 --> 0:32:29.640
<v Speaker 2>talked about so far, I think this will make for

0:32:29.640 --> 0:32:34.600
<v Speaker 2>a nice discussion. The various examples of beings and entities

0:32:34.680 --> 0:32:38.320
<v Speaker 2>that have lost their heads are separated from their heads

0:32:38.960 --> 0:32:41.720
<v Speaker 2>and so forth, and in doing so they often have

0:32:41.800 --> 0:32:44.600
<v Speaker 2>lost a face, though, as we'll discuss, sometimes the face

0:32:44.680 --> 0:32:49.920
<v Speaker 2>finds a way. But let's start with roughly with the

0:32:49.960 --> 0:32:53.360
<v Speaker 2>realm of the divine headless. And I suppose the notion

0:32:53.400 --> 0:32:55.560
<v Speaker 2>of the divine headless is interesting to think of in

0:32:55.640 --> 0:32:59.040
<v Speaker 2>light of some of the popular modern religious views that

0:32:59.080 --> 0:33:03.800
<v Speaker 2>position a mon theistic God as being essentially bodyless. And

0:33:03.880 --> 0:33:07.160
<v Speaker 2>in this respect you might well argue that, well God

0:33:07.240 --> 0:33:09.760
<v Speaker 2>is headless, then if God has no body, then God

0:33:09.800 --> 0:33:12.520
<v Speaker 2>has no head, at least in the literal sense. But

0:33:12.600 --> 0:33:14.680
<v Speaker 2>of course it's hard to escape the head in virtually

0:33:14.720 --> 0:33:19.400
<v Speaker 2>any sort of anthropomorphism or any number of linguistic uses

0:33:19.400 --> 0:33:22.280
<v Speaker 2>of the word head. We even have the term godhead

0:33:22.640 --> 0:33:25.800
<v Speaker 2>used to sum up different theological concepts, particularly in the

0:33:26.960 --> 0:33:30.640
<v Speaker 2>Abrahamic and religions, and also in Hinduism, though.

0:33:30.560 --> 0:33:33.920
<v Speaker 3>That is a false cognate. You know. The head in

0:33:34.040 --> 0:33:37.520
<v Speaker 3>godhead actually has nothing to do with the biological head.

0:33:37.640 --> 0:33:40.920
<v Speaker 3>I think it is derived from the term that essentially

0:33:40.960 --> 0:33:44.880
<v Speaker 3>means like godhood. It is like the essence of godness.

0:33:45.200 --> 0:33:48.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but then you throw that into a language system

0:33:48.440 --> 0:33:50.800
<v Speaker 2>where head means head. You can't help but think of

0:33:50.840 --> 0:33:54.520
<v Speaker 2>it as such. Right now. Another thing to look at is, Okay,

0:33:54.560 --> 0:33:57.000
<v Speaker 2>if your god or goddess of choice goes through different

0:33:57.000 --> 0:34:01.560
<v Speaker 2>avatars or incarnations, then well, no matter what their pure

0:34:01.720 --> 0:34:03.840
<v Speaker 2>form is, they're going to wind up having a head

0:34:03.960 --> 0:34:07.960
<v Speaker 2>of some sort at some point, at least for a while.

0:34:09.200 --> 0:34:12.480
<v Speaker 2>I think a fantasy example we might turn to if

0:34:12.520 --> 0:34:15.600
<v Speaker 2>you think of a Sauron from The Lord of the Rings, right,

0:34:15.719 --> 0:34:18.760
<v Speaker 2>he takes on a number of bipedal and headed being

0:34:19.160 --> 0:34:22.239
<v Speaker 2>of forms, but ultimately assumes the physical form of a

0:34:22.239 --> 0:34:25.360
<v Speaker 2>great disembodied eye, devoid of body and head in the

0:34:25.400 --> 0:34:26.440
<v Speaker 2>literal sense.

0:34:26.560 --> 0:34:28.799
<v Speaker 3>Though it is interesting that it's still the eyes at

0:34:28.800 --> 0:34:31.120
<v Speaker 3>the top of a tower, making it kind of like

0:34:31.200 --> 0:34:31.600
<v Speaker 3>a head.

0:34:32.320 --> 0:34:35.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, And I guess the idea is that during

0:34:35.360 --> 0:34:39.440
<v Speaker 2>that incarnation, like it has, he has become all seeking

0:34:39.600 --> 0:34:42.600
<v Speaker 2>all because there is only one thing that it wants.

0:34:42.640 --> 0:34:46.040
<v Speaker 2>It is not consumption. It is just to find the

0:34:46.120 --> 0:34:46.640
<v Speaker 2>one ring.

0:34:47.200 --> 0:34:49.560
<v Speaker 3>It's kind of the opposite of the headless horseman issue,

0:34:49.600 --> 0:34:52.560
<v Speaker 3>where like you can't tell where it's looking, all Sauron

0:34:52.880 --> 0:34:54.520
<v Speaker 3>is is looking at something.

0:34:55.000 --> 0:34:59.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Now, in actual religions, though, gods do sometimes lose

0:34:59.680 --> 0:35:03.360
<v Speaker 2>their head heads, but unlike with human beings, this doesn't

0:35:03.400 --> 0:35:05.520
<v Speaker 2>spell the end of it, because here you're dealing with

0:35:06.520 --> 0:35:11.160
<v Speaker 2>again divine beings and magical powers and so forth. We've

0:35:11.200 --> 0:35:15.160
<v Speaker 2>discussed in the past. The Hindu god Rahu, this is

0:35:15.200 --> 0:35:19.560
<v Speaker 2>the entity that is associated with eclipses. He was once

0:35:19.600 --> 0:35:22.640
<v Speaker 2>a proud oserer, a demi god of immense power and

0:35:22.760 --> 0:35:27.760
<v Speaker 2>hunger seeking immortality. For demi gods are just another realm

0:35:27.800 --> 0:35:31.560
<v Speaker 2>in the wheel of Samsara. Rahu drinks the divine nectar

0:35:31.719 --> 0:35:35.680
<v Speaker 2>known as Amrita, but before he can swallow it all

0:35:35.680 --> 0:35:38.840
<v Speaker 2>the way, as it's passing down his throat, all powerful

0:35:38.920 --> 0:35:42.040
<v Speaker 2>Vishnu decapitates him for the transgression.

0:35:42.480 --> 0:35:44.000
<v Speaker 3>He wasn't supposed to drink the nectar.

0:35:44.040 --> 0:35:46.000
<v Speaker 2>He was not supposed to drink it and was stopped

0:35:46.000 --> 0:35:48.360
<v Speaker 2>in the act of drinking it. So the power of

0:35:48.400 --> 0:35:51.239
<v Speaker 2>the nectar. In at least some tellings and understandings of

0:35:51.280 --> 0:35:55.879
<v Speaker 2>the story makes his disembodied head immortal, and so this

0:35:56.000 --> 0:35:59.440
<v Speaker 2>cleaved and fallen god continually seeks his revenge on the

0:35:59.440 --> 0:36:03.480
<v Speaker 2>two planets jerry deities who ratted him out to Vishnu. However,

0:36:04.080 --> 0:36:06.359
<v Speaker 2>in a lot of these tellings, his headless body is

0:36:06.400 --> 0:36:09.160
<v Speaker 2>still in the mix under the new name of Ketu,

0:36:09.560 --> 0:36:13.319
<v Speaker 2>so both Rahu and Katu take on the classification of

0:36:13.440 --> 0:36:17.880
<v Speaker 2>shadow planets in Indian astronomy. Katu is indeed sometimes depicted

0:36:17.960 --> 0:36:22.920
<v Speaker 2>in Hindu iconography as a body without a head. Interesting now,

0:36:23.000 --> 0:36:26.719
<v Speaker 2>Hinduism also boasts a headless goddess of sorts by the

0:36:26.840 --> 0:36:32.400
<v Speaker 2>name of Chinnamasta. She is depicted as a nude, red fleshed,

0:36:32.640 --> 0:36:37.520
<v Speaker 2>self decapitating tantric goddess. She's generally depicted standing atop the

0:36:37.560 --> 0:36:40.640
<v Speaker 2>bodies of a divine couple with a scimitar in one

0:36:40.680 --> 0:36:43.640
<v Speaker 2>hand and her own head in the other, with three

0:36:43.760 --> 0:36:47.680
<v Speaker 2>jets of blood spurting out of her neck, which her

0:36:47.680 --> 0:36:51.680
<v Speaker 2>own severed head plus two attendants like gaze upward and

0:36:51.680 --> 0:36:53.880
<v Speaker 2>open their mouths and drink like a fountain.

0:36:54.280 --> 0:36:57.359
<v Speaker 3>So she's understood to have cut her own head off

0:36:57.440 --> 0:36:59.200
<v Speaker 3>with the scimitar.

0:36:59.400 --> 0:37:02.520
<v Speaker 2>Right right, now I suppose she is still head in

0:37:02.640 --> 0:37:05.839
<v Speaker 2>body as one, even in separation, or at least that's

0:37:05.840 --> 0:37:10.560
<v Speaker 2>my understanding. This might differ, you know, if one were

0:37:10.600 --> 0:37:15.680
<v Speaker 2>to dive more into the theology of this particular god

0:37:16.200 --> 0:37:21.800
<v Speaker 2>and what these depictions mean. But it's my limited understanding

0:37:21.800 --> 0:37:25.080
<v Speaker 2>that you still think of them as as the same goddess,

0:37:25.480 --> 0:37:29.480
<v Speaker 2>and she's associated with destruction and creation, but also apparently paradoxes,

0:37:30.239 --> 0:37:34.320
<v Speaker 2>which I think is worth highlighting. Now, another headless divine

0:37:34.320 --> 0:37:37.920
<v Speaker 2>figure can be found in Chinese mythology, and this is

0:37:38.000 --> 0:37:43.360
<v Speaker 2>Sing Ten. As Anne Beryl describes in Chinese Mythology and introduction,

0:37:44.360 --> 0:37:48.680
<v Speaker 2>Sing Ten is a failed hero in minor deity. His

0:37:48.760 --> 0:37:52.040
<v Speaker 2>plight is described in the Shanghaijing, the Classic of Mountains

0:37:52.040 --> 0:37:53.880
<v Speaker 2>and Seas, which we've talked about on the show before.

0:37:53.920 --> 0:37:56.160
<v Speaker 2>This is a work from between five hundred and two

0:37:56.200 --> 0:38:01.359
<v Speaker 2>hundred BCE. Taking into account of variations of his name,

0:38:02.320 --> 0:38:05.799
<v Speaker 2>Beryl writes that we might very roughly translate his name

0:38:05.880 --> 0:38:10.480
<v Speaker 2>as punished by heavens or formed by heavens or And

0:38:10.520 --> 0:38:12.319
<v Speaker 2>I love this one because this one sounds like he

0:38:12.320 --> 0:38:16.800
<v Speaker 2>could straight up be a death metal band. Is form

0:38:17.040 --> 0:38:20.600
<v Speaker 2>prematurely dying? Who you can just imagine that in that

0:38:20.680 --> 0:38:24.160
<v Speaker 2>nearly illegible script on a festival poster.

0:38:24.040 --> 0:38:26.360
<v Speaker 3>Right right, yes, in the Batlord fond.

0:38:26.840 --> 0:38:30.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So Beryl points out that the story of Sing

0:38:30.760 --> 0:38:34.160
<v Speaker 2>Ten kind of stands out for its gruesomeness in the

0:38:34.280 --> 0:38:38.120
<v Speaker 2>in the classic, and this is partially thought to be

0:38:38.120 --> 0:38:41.399
<v Speaker 2>because many instances of sex and violence were like edited

0:38:41.440 --> 0:38:43.440
<v Speaker 2>a bit and cleaned up a bit over time in

0:38:43.480 --> 0:38:46.120
<v Speaker 2>that work, and for one reason or another, this one

0:38:46.160 --> 0:38:51.319
<v Speaker 2>was not. She describes Sington as an odentic warrior, and

0:38:51.360 --> 0:38:52.880
<v Speaker 2>we might well think of him as kind of a

0:38:52.880 --> 0:38:55.360
<v Speaker 2>Satanic figure as well, if you know, comparing him to

0:38:55.760 --> 0:39:02.400
<v Speaker 2>modern Christian and certainly Western literature depictions of Satan, because

0:39:02.520 --> 0:39:05.200
<v Speaker 2>we know, for what little we know about him is

0:39:05.239 --> 0:39:07.880
<v Speaker 2>that he winds up in this position of having no

0:39:08.000 --> 0:39:11.440
<v Speaker 2>head due to his hubris, due to his violent opposition

0:39:11.719 --> 0:39:15.000
<v Speaker 2>to the supreme god Huangdi, the Yellow Emperor.

0:39:16.320 --> 0:39:17.719
<v Speaker 3>So what's the story, all right?

0:39:17.760 --> 0:39:20.240
<v Speaker 2>So the story goes that sing Ten, who sometimes described

0:39:20.239 --> 0:39:23.400
<v Speaker 2>as a giant as well, challenges the Yellow Emperor on

0:39:23.480 --> 0:39:27.560
<v Speaker 2>a particular battleground for a divine rule. You know, He's like,

0:39:27.760 --> 0:39:32.319
<v Speaker 2>you shouldn't be ruined everything, I should. Let's battle it. Out. Now,

0:39:32.480 --> 0:39:35.759
<v Speaker 2>the Yellow Emperor is victorious in the end, and he

0:39:35.840 --> 0:39:40.000
<v Speaker 2>beheads his challenger and buries the head on cheng Yang Mountain.

0:39:41.160 --> 0:39:45.440
<v Speaker 2>But Sing Ten is too proud to die. According to

0:39:45.480 --> 0:39:49.120
<v Speaker 2>one translation, quote Ten made his nipples serve as eyes

0:39:49.239 --> 0:39:52.720
<v Speaker 2>and his navel as his mouth, and brandishing his shield

0:39:52.800 --> 0:39:56.280
<v Speaker 2>and battle axe, he danced. And we might well imagine

0:39:56.280 --> 0:40:00.840
<v Speaker 2>this dance is a proud kind of war dance, a

0:40:00.840 --> 0:40:04.520
<v Speaker 2>a vein dance, a spiteful dance. Again, he has been defeated,

0:40:04.560 --> 0:40:07.640
<v Speaker 2>his head has been removed from his giant body, and

0:40:07.719 --> 0:40:12.319
<v Speaker 2>yet he refuses to truly give up, to cease his

0:40:12.360 --> 0:40:16.319
<v Speaker 2>opposition to the Yellow Wimperor, and continues to fight, though

0:40:16.360 --> 0:40:19.200
<v Speaker 2>in time the body dies as well and the body

0:40:19.280 --> 0:40:22.319
<v Speaker 2>is buried as well. Now I included some illustrations of

0:40:22.360 --> 0:40:25.040
<v Speaker 2>this entity for you to look at here Joe, the

0:40:25.080 --> 0:40:28.160
<v Speaker 2>first of which is an older illustration from the Shanghaijiing

0:40:28.239 --> 0:40:31.719
<v Speaker 2>which folks can can look up. Is found in a

0:40:31.719 --> 0:40:34.200
<v Speaker 2>lot of places, very very simple and kind of comical.

0:40:34.680 --> 0:40:40.680
<v Speaker 2>But by doing image searches, especially using the Chinese characters

0:40:41.080 --> 0:40:43.680
<v Speaker 2>for the entity, you can find a number of really

0:40:43.760 --> 0:40:46.880
<v Speaker 2>cool like modern illustrations. I don't know to what extent,

0:40:46.920 --> 0:40:51.279
<v Speaker 2>Like he's been utilized in Chinese comic books and video

0:40:51.360 --> 0:40:53.640
<v Speaker 2>games and whatnot. But it looks like a lot of

0:40:53.680 --> 0:40:56.719
<v Speaker 2>folks have done some very unique sketches of him that

0:40:56.880 --> 0:41:00.720
<v Speaker 2>look very horrifying, very demonic, with like the belly erupting

0:41:00.760 --> 0:41:05.200
<v Speaker 2>into a big fanged mouth and indeed the nipples becoming eyes,

0:41:05.760 --> 0:41:08.279
<v Speaker 2>and you know, this is the ferocious form, you know,

0:41:08.360 --> 0:41:11.040
<v Speaker 2>still carrying and brandishing its battle axe.

0:41:12.160 --> 0:41:14.520
<v Speaker 3>At least one of these illustrations has a little bit

0:41:14.560 --> 0:41:15.520
<v Speaker 3>of Critter's energy.

0:41:16.160 --> 0:41:19.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, they have. Maybe there there's one thing to

0:41:19.760 --> 0:41:21.919
<v Speaker 2>keep in mind, like ideas of like what happens when

0:41:22.440 --> 0:41:25.400
<v Speaker 2>like the head is fused with the body, or thought

0:41:25.440 --> 0:41:27.000
<v Speaker 2>to have fused with the body. We'll get back to

0:41:27.080 --> 0:41:29.560
<v Speaker 2>that in a bit. But yeah, it's like there's also

0:41:29.600 --> 0:41:32.040
<v Speaker 2>this kind of spirit of, well, you can't be head

0:41:32.120 --> 0:41:34.640
<v Speaker 2>me again, Like my head is literally my torso. Now

0:41:34.640 --> 0:41:36.160
<v Speaker 2>what are you going to do? Cut my torso off?

0:41:36.440 --> 0:41:38.480
<v Speaker 3>I can't believe I didn't connect it to this earlier,

0:41:38.520 --> 0:41:40.400
<v Speaker 3>but I mean when you were talking about Modoc, I

0:41:40.440 --> 0:41:43.479
<v Speaker 3>mean the critters, the crits really sort of are all head.

0:41:43.480 --> 0:41:47.520
<v Speaker 3>They're like a head, an eating head with legs and arms.

0:41:47.719 --> 0:41:51.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and what does it mean sort of conceptionally if

0:41:51.480 --> 0:41:54.160
<v Speaker 2>we are imagining a creature that doesn't have a head

0:41:54.239 --> 0:41:56.600
<v Speaker 2>with a mouth, but its body is the mouth, where

0:41:56.640 --> 0:42:00.160
<v Speaker 2>like head and body are fused into one. You know,

0:42:00.239 --> 0:42:03.360
<v Speaker 2>on some level, does that kind of mess with our

0:42:03.480 --> 0:42:06.000
<v Speaker 2>concepts of head and body? Like one of the concepts

0:42:06.000 --> 0:42:09.840
<v Speaker 2>we've discussed in the past is how arguably modern humans

0:42:09.840 --> 0:42:14.320
<v Speaker 2>tend to think of body and head as horse and rider.

0:42:14.560 --> 0:42:16.719
<v Speaker 2>You know, we're the head and there's the body. It's

0:42:16.719 --> 0:42:19.560
<v Speaker 2>doing its thing. But of course there's really more of

0:42:19.600 --> 0:42:23.120
<v Speaker 2>a centaur concept where horse and rider are one, and

0:42:23.800 --> 0:42:26.880
<v Speaker 2>that breaks down in a number of different ways. But

0:42:26.920 --> 0:42:29.680
<v Speaker 2>then what if we imagine, like the horse, human is

0:42:29.760 --> 0:42:32.280
<v Speaker 2>just one entity, you know, Like, how are we supposed

0:42:32.320 --> 0:42:35.360
<v Speaker 2>to take take account of that? Like, here is this creature,

0:42:35.480 --> 0:42:40.480
<v Speaker 2>like the critter like sington, who now has its belly

0:42:41.080 --> 0:42:43.200
<v Speaker 2>more or less in its body, its eyes or in

0:42:43.239 --> 0:42:46.279
<v Speaker 2>its body. What does that mean about its volition and

0:42:46.320 --> 0:42:46.840
<v Speaker 2>its intent?

0:42:47.400 --> 0:42:48.840
<v Speaker 3>I don't have a good answer on this, but I

0:42:48.880 --> 0:42:50.600
<v Speaker 3>was just trying to think, how would your vision be

0:42:50.680 --> 0:42:55.600
<v Speaker 3>different if your eyes were in your nipples'd be farther

0:42:55.680 --> 0:42:58.360
<v Speaker 3>apart than human eyes usually are. And I don't know

0:42:58.400 --> 0:42:59.880
<v Speaker 3>exactly how that would change things.

0:43:00.320 --> 0:43:03.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, they would be wider apart, and certainly these

0:43:03.520 --> 0:43:06.840
<v Speaker 2>depictions of like Singing ten. You know, he seems to

0:43:06.840 --> 0:43:10.080
<v Speaker 2>be have a very broad giant's body, so the nipples

0:43:10.120 --> 0:43:14.720
<v Speaker 2>are pretty far apart. Yeah, I'm not sure exactly how

0:43:14.760 --> 0:43:17.279
<v Speaker 2>to cut that. But in a way, it's like by

0:43:17.320 --> 0:43:20.640
<v Speaker 2>having the belly be the mouth, it's like it does

0:43:20.840 --> 0:43:24.840
<v Speaker 2>tend to give us this idea that like the hunger

0:43:24.920 --> 0:43:27.600
<v Speaker 2>is even more all consuming, like the belly itself is

0:43:27.680 --> 0:43:29.279
<v Speaker 2>opening up and wishes to eat.

0:43:29.719 --> 0:43:32.400
<v Speaker 3>There will not be like an esophagus in between the

0:43:32.440 --> 0:43:35.440
<v Speaker 3>food and the stomach. You're just like chomping. It's like

0:43:35.480 --> 0:43:37.160
<v Speaker 3>the stomach itself has teeth.

0:43:37.640 --> 0:43:39.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I don't imagine there's a lot of tasting.

0:43:40.920 --> 0:43:42.759
<v Speaker 2>This critter is not going for the tasting menu, is

0:43:42.800 --> 0:43:45.520
<v Speaker 2>going for the buffet. That's right by the way. If

0:43:45.560 --> 0:43:47.759
<v Speaker 2>we dip back into Hindu epics for just a second,

0:43:47.800 --> 0:43:51.080
<v Speaker 2>there is a demon with these basic features that pops

0:43:51.160 --> 0:43:55.600
<v Speaker 2>up there, known as Kabanda, and the story goes that

0:43:55.680 --> 0:44:00.600
<v Speaker 2>Indra stove this individual's head and thighs in stove them

0:44:00.640 --> 0:44:04.120
<v Speaker 2>into his body with the celestial thunderbolt weapon known as

0:44:04.160 --> 0:44:08.759
<v Speaker 2>the Vadra. But then Indra shows mercy and says, well,

0:44:08.800 --> 0:44:11.759
<v Speaker 2>he's still alive, he should be allowed to eat. So

0:44:11.840 --> 0:44:15.359
<v Speaker 2>Indra gives him long arms and a belly mouth. And

0:44:15.440 --> 0:44:19.200
<v Speaker 2>I included one depiction of this creature here for you, Joe.

0:44:19.200 --> 0:44:21.000
<v Speaker 3>On this drawing. He's kind of cute. He's like a

0:44:21.040 --> 0:44:21.879
<v Speaker 3>blue Teddy bear.

0:44:22.560 --> 0:44:25.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah. But this one's interesting too because it's like

0:44:25.440 --> 0:44:28.160
<v Speaker 2>the head is not removed. The head is just kind

0:44:28.160 --> 0:44:31.400
<v Speaker 2>of like apparently it's like driven down into the body

0:44:31.440 --> 0:44:34.640
<v Speaker 2>with something like it's easy to imagine like some gruesome

0:44:35.080 --> 0:44:40.879
<v Speaker 2>Mortal Kombat esque battle field fatality here, and then that

0:44:41.520 --> 0:44:46.600
<v Speaker 2>is rectified by divine magic to some extent. Now, if

0:44:46.600 --> 0:44:51.000
<v Speaker 2>we look to the world of Japanese jokai, there is

0:44:51.040 --> 0:44:54.000
<v Speaker 2>also a creature there that is described as headless but

0:44:54.080 --> 0:44:56.880
<v Speaker 2>with nipple eyes and a belly mouth. This is a

0:44:57.440 --> 0:45:01.880
<v Speaker 2>donatsura or torso face, according to I couldn't find out

0:45:01.920 --> 0:45:04.160
<v Speaker 2>a lot about this one. I was looking at yokai

0:45:04.200 --> 0:45:08.640
<v Speaker 2>dot com where Matthew Meyer describes this entity and says

0:45:08.640 --> 0:45:12.040
<v Speaker 2>that the main connotation here is to shame and some

0:45:12.080 --> 0:45:15.239
<v Speaker 2>sort of saying in Japanese about lowering the lowering of

0:45:15.280 --> 0:45:18.640
<v Speaker 2>one's face. I think the effectiveness of this is likely.

0:45:18.760 --> 0:45:23.040
<v Speaker 2>You know, something that's lost in translation. M okay. There's

0:45:23.120 --> 0:45:29.239
<v Speaker 2>another yokai that Meyer describes called Kuba kajiri, and this

0:45:29.280 --> 0:45:32.640
<v Speaker 2>one is also apparently sometimes described as headless. It's a

0:45:32.719 --> 0:45:35.240
<v Speaker 2>kind of ghoul that consumes the heads of the dead,

0:45:35.880 --> 0:45:39.120
<v Speaker 2>though plenty of illustrations depict it as having a head,

0:45:39.760 --> 0:45:42.440
<v Speaker 2>as being a being with a head that is gnawing

0:45:42.560 --> 0:45:47.560
<v Speaker 2>on disembodied heads, and this may seem this seems to

0:45:47.560 --> 0:45:50.319
<v Speaker 2>be maybe connected to the idea of bodies buried without

0:45:50.360 --> 0:45:53.600
<v Speaker 2>heads coming back as vengeful spirits that seek out corpse

0:45:53.640 --> 0:45:56.400
<v Speaker 2>heads to eat. It could also be linked to starvation,

0:45:56.640 --> 0:45:59.920
<v Speaker 2>according to Meyer. But at this point, obviously we're our

0:46:00.160 --> 0:46:02.800
<v Speaker 2>beginning to talk about things that are maybe less divine

0:46:02.840 --> 0:46:05.800
<v Speaker 2>and maybe a little more diabolical, a little lower down

0:46:05.880 --> 0:46:10.360
<v Speaker 2>the ladder of power when it comes to supernatural entities.

0:46:10.840 --> 0:46:13.839
<v Speaker 2>And so this is where we're going to leave off.

0:46:13.840 --> 0:46:15.480
<v Speaker 2>But in the next episode we're going to come back

0:46:15.520 --> 0:46:17.719
<v Speaker 2>in and we're going to discuss other examples of more

0:46:18.040 --> 0:46:23.600
<v Speaker 2>outright diabolical headless entities, and we'll also get into the

0:46:23.640 --> 0:46:29.160
<v Speaker 2>works of antiquity and various descriptions of peoples in distant

0:46:29.200 --> 0:46:31.680
<v Speaker 2>parts of the world or distant from the writers and

0:46:31.680 --> 0:46:35.360
<v Speaker 2>observers here, that were said to have no heads, but

0:46:35.440 --> 0:46:38.160
<v Speaker 2>of course to have faces on their bodies. And so

0:46:38.239 --> 0:46:41.000
<v Speaker 2>we'll get into that and discuss like where these ideas

0:46:41.040 --> 0:46:44.399
<v Speaker 2>came from and what they seem to mean. So we'll

0:46:44.400 --> 0:46:48.360
<v Speaker 2>get into that on Thursday. In the meantime, we'll remind

0:46:48.400 --> 0:46:50.440
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0:46:50.520 --> 0:46:53.480
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0:47:05.719 --> 0:47:10.640
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