WEBVTT - Eric Andersen 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:12.640 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast. 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:19.239 My guest today is legendary singer songwriter Eric Anderson. Eric, 0:00:19.760 --> 0:00:22.840 you have a new song, Danger Lane. Tell us about it. 0:00:24.480 --> 0:00:27.400 I think it pretty much speaks for itself. It's about 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:34.560 school shootings, mass shootings. Our quator with David Amram last 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:38.600 May and we did it in one take. 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:43.839 And you live in the Netherlands. You talk about David Amram, 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:47.839 who still lives I think near Woodstock. How did you 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:48.639 actually do it? 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:52.239 Went into a studio, he started a piano and I 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:54.360 got the on booth and I just read the lyric. 0:00:54.440 --> 0:00:58.360 I read the narrative and he played piano. 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:00.800 And this was where. 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:04.200 Shelter Shelter Island Studio in New York. 0:01:05.720 --> 0:01:11.640 I see, and you are doing some promotion on this. 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:13.360 How you getting the word out? 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:16.160 I put it on Facebook and nobody looked at it. 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:19.320 You put it a Facebook and nobody looked at it. 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:21.520 As what you said, maybe twenty people. 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:24.920 So what are you doing to get people to look 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:25.280 at it? 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:29.039 Well, the guy I work with, the guy not the 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:33.880 guy who does the visuals Rent and Fisheries in Toronto, 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:38.399 he's like this very young wizard. I gave him the images, 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:43.560 he put it together, and he's putting some stuff on 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:47.640 TikTok and putting some teasers up like one Verse to 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:50.880 try to get some interests. I mean it's growing. I mean, 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:53.200 it's like we've had about three hundred hits in about 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:55.880 thirteen days. But I mean it's not a thing you 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:58.560 can say you like, you know, like somebody's dog or 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:02.920 somebody's anniversary or somebody's birthday. Yeah, I like this. I 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:05.120 like that. You know, you don't you don't. You don't 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:08.000 watch a video about mass shootings and school shootings and 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:10.560 say I like it. So I don't know if people 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:13.200 know how to respond, but if they watch it, they don't, 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:14.320 they don't respond. 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:19.919 Well, it's very impact though. What inspired you to weigh 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:20.880 in on this now? 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:25.640 Well, I'm probably one of the only artists who are 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:28.160 doing it and weighing in on these kinds of things. 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:30.840 I mean, I'm I'm doing a thing like this. I'm 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:37.040 working on a thing about militias private armies in America. Yeah, 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:38.840 I'm working on a bunch of things that I guess 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:41.760 nobody you know, things that are only in the news 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:45.120 or newspapers or television. You know, things like that. Artists don't. 0:02:45.320 --> 0:02:47.520 It's too much to wrap your heads around. You can't. 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:51.000 I mean it's not topical in the normal sense where 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:54.280 you write a topical song and then the next day 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:57.639 something else happens. You know, when people first started writing 0:02:57.680 --> 0:03:00.240 topical songs in the village, people that fill up folks 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:04.919 or tom packs and those people. I mean, if something happened, 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:07.840 you had to wait till Walter Cronkite come on and 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:10.519 the next night for a half hour newscast or something, 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:13.359 or get some people got the New York Times maybe, 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:18.880 and you could write a protest song about a specific event. Now, man, all, 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:22.880 I mean, this ship has hit the fan. I mean 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:25.880 it's twenty four hour, twenty four to seven news c 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:29.040 and I mean it's just it's NonStop. So for a writer, 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:33.359 how do you put your where do you grab something 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:35.520 and say, I'm going to write a protest song. So 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:38.280 these songs that I'm doing on they're not really protest songs. 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:44.240 They are more like descriptions of diseases, long term descriptions, 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:47.640 you know, They're not dealing with an event at the moment. 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:50.880 And of course, since we recorded this in May, many 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:55.560 many mass shootings have happened, and many school shootings happened. 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:57.960 I think there's over one hundred and seventy now since 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:00.240 the New Year, there's been one hundred and seven many 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:03.240 mass shootings when it's over three or four people in 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:04.440 the United States. 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:09.160 And to what did we Does music today have power 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:11.480 to make change? 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:12.320 I don't know. 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:17.880 You tell me, well, the biggest challenge is being heard 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:21.240 relevant of the content of the music. Tell me more 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:23.240 about the private militias. 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:28.040 Just getting back to dangerlund just say it's on YouTube. 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:33.680 I'm from I was from Buffalo, New York, and we 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:36.839 rolled into town the day after the want there was 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:42.240 a shooting at the top supermarket, like about, you know, 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:44.160 four blocks away from where I was doing a gig. 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:50.640 And we've been driving around doing some shows and I 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:53.200 went over there actually to pick up an honorary doctorate 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:57.680 and we got some gigs around that we played. And 0:04:57.760 --> 0:04:59.680 it was the first time I went to the States, right, 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:04.479 I felt this palpable, like something could happen to anybody. 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:07.360 It wasn't like going this was last spring. It wasn't 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:09.800 the feeling where you could you know, these things happened 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:13.600 to somebody else, like somebody died or something happened to them, 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:17.120 but it's not going to happen to me. But this 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:18.880 time when I went over, I had, you know, man, 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:23.560 the stuff could just happened to you know, I just 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:25.800 it was in the air, something I ever felt before 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:29.839 coming to the States. And then we rolled into town. 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:32.839 Man the day after this thing at the tops happened, 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:36.400 and then the EVOLVEDI thing, so last thing. So we 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:39.679 put some of this stuff together and made a video. 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:44.560 And that's what I'm doing. I'm making videos. And since then, 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:48.159 how many look what's happened. It's like, it's a no 0:05:48.279 --> 0:05:50.640 brainer write a song about this. I mean, it's going 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:53.040 to be happening next week, the week after that. You know, 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:56.840 it's not a people, it's not a thing people on 0:05:56.920 --> 0:06:04.960 Facebook or Instagram. I really want to see who wants 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:08.000 to hear about this stuff. I mean so, but anyway, 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:10.320 somebody's got to take a look at it. And so 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:13.320 it was me. So I was the one that got tapped. 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:16.760 I was the shoulder that got tapped on. The militia 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:19.760 thing is along the same lines, you know, using images 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:26.400 and talking about being summoned by you know, like a 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:29.720 leader who snaps his fingers and everybody's ready to go, 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:36.040 uh little private armies. So it's a it's a it's 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:39.040 a work about that. So we're we're working on this. Now. 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:44.279 I've already done, I've already uh recorded the track. We 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:48.599 just have to make the video with this this guy Brandan, 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:52.640 he's got the images I sent and so so we're 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:57.279 doing that. We're putting these kind of things together. But 0:06:57.360 --> 0:06:58.880 I don't know if anybody's going to look at it 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:01.200 and want to see it, they're interested, who knows. But 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:03.200 it's something I just show you I had to do. 0:07:04.520 --> 0:07:08.320 And but I don't think I don't know any artists 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:17.440 that are the Dare Delvin of these the matters. So 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:18.920 we'll see what happens. 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:25.960 Okay, you have it quite a perspective, having been in 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:32.520 music and being very aware sixty plus years ago what 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:35.520 changed in America? 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:41.400 You're asking me, I'm asking you, what do you think. 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:46.360 I think it was when the Baby boomers, after the 0:07:46.400 --> 0:07:50.720 sixties were over, became very focused on money, and then 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:55.320 when Reagan legitimized greed, they sort of lost all of 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:59.040 their sixties values. That's the key element in my book. 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:03.560 And then committing quality after that, Well. 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:08.600 It's a complex question. The stuff that. I think it 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:12.760 just became more evident after the sixties. This stuff was 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:17.280 always going on since Melan Carnegie Rock of this stuff's 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:20.920 always been going on. I think people in the sixties, 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:24.360 you know, they had this maybe they had this hope. 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:26.080 You know. I was, I mean I was in the 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:28.880 first handful of songwriters looking at this stuff, you know, 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:33.480 in the village. I mean, it gave birth to what 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:38.120 the so called singer songwriter movement, you know, and those 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:45.520 people maybe might have seven people, five people writing writing 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:49.280 about five hundred thousand things. Now you've got five hundred 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:52.120 thousand singer songwriters and it's hard to even write about five. 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:55.160 Things that well well put. 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:57.880 So you get this, you get this dream of the sixties, 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:00.240 and you think things are going to happen, and then 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:03.680 you find out that the good guy's lost. You know. 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:08.760 But it was a beautiful idea, but it just didn't fly. 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:17.440 And you know, it just it goes on and it 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:19.240 goes on and it goes on. You know, it's not 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:24.720 the country. Well, first of all, America is many countries. 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:27.280 There's a lot of different kinds. There's a lot of 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:32.600 America's happening in one country, and they're always amen, and 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:37.959 getting trying to get everybody to agree on anything is 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:42.079 very difficult. I mean, the Italians don't agree on anything, 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:45.920 and they're just one people. In America, you get a 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:50.079 country of immigrants, and every wave of immigrants hated the 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:54.559 next wave, every wave of immigrants that came. I don't 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:57.800 know if you ever read Cheos Without Money by Michael Golden. 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:01.760 It's a brilliant book about the Lowers Side, about how 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:07.400 people lived in their neighborhood cages. It's an absolutely incredible book. 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:10.800 And every time I knew, you know, if you if 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:13.240 you went around the corner, you went to the wrong block, 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:14.640 they kicked the ship out of you. And I mean 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:16.640 the Italians get you. If they didn't, then the Irish 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:19.040 would get you. And I mean, and the whole thing 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:22.200 was built up where you when you got to America, 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:25.120 you dropped everything at the door. You know, you drop 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:27.600 the language, you dropped the culture, you dropped You're going 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:30.280 to you know, Lucy, you're going to be an American. 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:33.760 Don't talk Italian, don't talk about this, don't talk about it. 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:36.440 You're going to learn to be an American. And that's 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:39.360 the way that was where things took a left turn. 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:43.079 So a lot of beautiful cultural stuff just got thrown 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:47.040 by the you know, cast aside because people wanted their 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:49.880 kids to conform and to belong and to be part 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:54.559 of the big, big dream. So, you know, so the 0:10:54.679 --> 0:11:02.760 splintering and all this and strange false consensus of what 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:07.600 it is to be this or be that. It was 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:09.719 a dangerous thing. It was a big weapon. It was 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:13.520 a club, you know, promulgated by Hollywood, you know, white 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:17.000 fences and keep mothers at the door with aprons, and 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:21.160 you know, it's and no one can, no one could 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:25.120 possibly not all people could fit into this thing. So 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:28.079 I don't know, I don't know if the sixties something 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:30.480 happened afterwards. There is always this way. That's a tough 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:31.600 it's a tough question. 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:35.559 Well, you were born in forty three, so you're really 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:40.160 a child in the fifties. What were the fifties like? 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:42.920 You were ten years older than I am. Were they 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:47.480 as straight liced and repressed and mindless as they're depicted. 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:51.960 Well, you had to have something to compare it to. 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:56.160 I mean, you didn't. You can just walk around in 0:11:56.200 --> 0:12:00.440 your saddleshiares and say hmm no, but I had an 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:02.920 ankling something was a little wrong. I mean, of course 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:05.640 I did, you know, that's so I gravitated to things. 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:07.760 I mean, when I was thirteen, I went to see 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:10.840 Elvis Presley, and my parents took me to see Miles 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:14.599 Davis when I was like fifteen, So I mean I 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:17.360 got to see some stuff. But you know, you knew something, 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:20.040 something was in the air. And I think it was 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:22.520 just through reading and through films and stuff that I 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:25.000 realized there was another world out there that had nothing 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:27.360 to do with what I was looking at. And that's 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:29.240 the world I wanted to find. And that's the world 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:31.440 I wanted to see, and that's the world I wanted 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:34.120 to live in. And that's why people jumped ship and 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:41.240 they you know, that was the that was the thing 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:44.640 that informed the sixties. Some people were braver than others. 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:50.760 Some people, you know, cut a new path coming from 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:53.439 the Beats, you know, the Beat. The beat things started 0:12:53.480 --> 0:13:01.080 it in the village and in San Francisco and the hippies, 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:03.720 you know, the beats were like the Beats were like hippies, 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:09.120 but hippies didn't read books. But it was a movement 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:13.880 and uh literary movement and that and people at least 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:15.760 I've got I picked up on it, and I think 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:18.360 people like Bob, you know, Dylan and lou Reid and 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:21.440 people like that picked up on it. A few people. 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:27.920 So growing up in the Buffalo area, what'd your father 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:28.720 do for a living? 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:33.920 Well, my father was He was a metal metallurgical engineer 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:38.200 who went to Case Western Reserve and he dealt with 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:42.839 nuclear energy projects. I don't know how specific you want 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:43.360 to got. 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:46.680 As specific as you do, well. 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:52.280 I don't know. He uh, he worked with it. He 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:57.800 worked with a metal called zirconium. Zirconium was a metal, 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:02.200 and he worked with people that work with nuclear energy 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:05.840 and nuclear reactors, submarines, all kinds of things that dealt 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:09.400 with nuclear reactors. Zirconium was this metal that was a 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:14.240 coat around uranium. It was like it was like a 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:18.920 shaft something went around it and so the uranium would 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:25.240 heat up and it was surrounded by water. And nuclear 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:28.800 energy is basically steam, you know, like that makes electricity. 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:31.960 That's all it is. Really, So you got it. You've 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:37.360 got nuclear nuclear energy, nuclear rods, and you've got water 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:41.200 and a mixed steam. But the problem is the uranium 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:46.000 it oxidizes, it rusts, so Zirconium was an element of 0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:50.960 metal that allowed the electrons to pass through to you know, 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:58.880 create a nuclear fission, and but it wouldn't rust. So 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:04.480 the zirconium allowed the activity to go on without having 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:09.520 the nuclear rods rusting or oxidizing. And in between those 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:13.880 things were carbon rods that would absorb electrons that could 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:16.600 make because you know, splitting atoms, the electrons went flying 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:18.880 all over the place looking for other atoms to split. 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:23.440 So they had carb they had carbon rods. It's very simple, actually, 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:25.960 and then you had carbon rods in the next two 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:29.520 They could absorb electrons and therefore you could control the heat, 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:32.800 how hot you wanted it, and so did an explode 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:36.160 like a nuclear bomb. So that's the kind of thing 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:38.080 he was into, what he was involved with. 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:42.880 So in the late fifties and early sixties, although we 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:47.560 had fear of the H and A bombs, this was 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:53.200 really cutting edge stuff. But by the late seventies there 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:56.760 was a reaction the China syndrome. What'd your father think 0:15:56.840 --> 0:15:57.480 about all that? 0:15:58.400 --> 0:15:59.760 About what China? 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:05.040 The people who suddenly were against nuclear power. 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:08.440 Well, I mean these are things they probably read about 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:12.720 in the newspapers. There were protest marches and whatnot. It 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:17.480 didn't affect him directly. Nobody laid siege to the company 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:21.000 or surrounded the surrounded them where they had to build 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:23.680 a motor around it or something like that. They you know, 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:26.040 they carried on business, and they still do today to 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:30.160 some degree. I mean, there's people like my father that 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:33.600 are working in France, you know, Germany, all over the 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:36.640 all over the world, and in China and rush everywhere, 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:40.480 and anybody who deals with nuclear energy deals with this. 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:43.240 But protest wise, I don't know. 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:46.880 I mean, did you ever argue with your father about 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:49.560 nuclear energy? Were you against nuclear power? 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:56.840 My parents were Republicans, so I didn't. I didn't have 0:16:56.880 --> 0:16:58.720 any kind of I didn't take any kind of stance 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:01.360 on this at all. In fact, I wasn't really aware 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:07.640 of the of these movements, which is kind of an 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:10.280 insular value of being in a suburb. I guess, you know, 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:11.560 you get insulated from all this. 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:14.960 So how many kids in the family? 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:16.840 Whose family? 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:18.680 Your family growing up? 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:23.159 Well, there was a there was a mother, father, and 0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:24.680 two brothers. 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:29.200 So where are you in the hierarchy of the three kids. 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:32.720 Well, well, there are two brothers, me and another brother. 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:34.880 Okay, are you the older or the younger. 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:37.359 And the young I mean I'm the older. 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:41.480 Why what kind of kid were you growing up? Were 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:43.760 you like a member of the group? Were you outside 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:44.879 of group? We're the leader? 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:49.879 Well, man, I was on the student council, I was 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:52.560 vice president of a class one year, and then I 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:57.840 lost interests in all that stuff. And I, like I said, 0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:00.919 I was, I was in a lot of extra curricular reading. 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:02.679 But I did. I work in a restaurant, and I 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:05.480 worked in a record store make money to buy records. 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:12.440 I uh played some sports. I played tennis. I was 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:14.960 on a football team for a while and played baseball. 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:17.800 You know, the usual stuff, whatever kid does. 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:22.400 So you were aware at the birth of rock and roll? 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:23.240 What was that like? 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:30.800 Well, it was pretty earth shattering, you know. I mean 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:34.240 I my parents been listening to people like Raynoble, My 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:36.920 father like rayn Noble, Elbowdi you know, the very thought 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:39.560 of you those I don't know how familiar with this stuff. 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:45.120 You know, Benny Goodman, these kind of big band, big 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:47.040 bands used to play this, you know. I mean he 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:49.679 he when he went to when he went to high school. 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:54.040 One weekend, count Basie played by high school in Cleveland 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:57.119 and the other weekend, Duke Ellington played, so he was 0:18:57.160 --> 0:19:00.400 he was very exposed to big band music and America. 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:06.680 You love music. Rock and roll was this was the way. 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:08.840 It was the vehicle that taught us how to learn 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:12.359 three chords on a guitar. See, we all started with 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:17.200 rock and roll. And Buddy Holly and the Everly Brothers 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:19.760 came to my high school to play. I saw them. 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:23.520 I saw I always performed at the Memorial auDA tourium 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:27.240 and a goal suit. So it was and I've learned 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:29.960 to start playing guitar, and you know, I was. I 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:32.560 had a few I had a couple of folk groups, 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:37.600 had a rock group. You know, but every kid does that, 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:40.480 I think in the fifties. 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:46.159 So what was it like seeing Elvis and Buddy Holly. 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:49.560 Well, you were, you knew you were in the presence 0:19:49.600 --> 0:19:51.440 of it. I mean I didn't get to see Duke 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:54.000 Ellington in person. I didn't get to see Gwen Miller, 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:55.959 I didn't get to see Benny Good. They were all 0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:57.960 on records. I mean I never got to see but 0:19:58.080 --> 0:19:59.600 they were great. You know, you know, you were in 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:05.639 the present and stead of a great musical explosion. It 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:08.160 was like it was like being parachuted into a volcano. 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:19.080 Okay, you graduate from high school, you go to college. 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:20.280 What was college like? 0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:24.919 Well, I was in pre med. I'd been working at 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:29.080 a cancer institute in Buffalo Roswell Park for a couple 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:33.560 of years, and under the auspices of this Hungarian doctor 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:37.840 who lived next door to me, we became friends and 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:41.679 you got me interested in research. So I was going 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:46.159 to I was interested in becoming a research scientist. And 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:49.240 so I was in the pre med and college. But 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:54.080 then I started getting too music and more and more, 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:58.080 and I started reading stuff that wasn't part of the curriculum. 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:03.200 And then I was in a motorcycle fraternity, which I 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:06.480 quit very soon, and it wasn't in it for very long. 0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:12.199 When they they were rushing Jewish kids and they when 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:14.080 they they said, come to the kitchen, I want to 0:21:14.240 --> 0:21:18.000 want to show our ovens that I just packed a 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:20.320 bag and I booked out. Either I never went back again, 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:25.120 but I still kept a motorcycle. So we were doing 0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:30.200 things like jumping freights. It was Lake Geneva was a 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:34.040 Hobart Colleges and lake and the freight trains would go 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:37.040 by and we were jumping freights. And then came the 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:41.440 unfortunate day when a few of us went and ripped 0:21:41.520 --> 0:21:45.639 up the president's lawn with their motorcycles and fucked up 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:50.720 the shrubs and just just really didn't care. So I 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:55.359 was expelled, expelled, A few of us were expelled, and 0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:59.960 it's funny just to conclude this story, a year ago 0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:02.200 I got an email from the dean of the college. 0:22:03.800 --> 0:22:06.639 But parents before I say, when I got expelled by 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:08.920 I went direpidly to San Francisco because I wanted to. 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:11.960 I wanted to meet the beats or see the beat scene. 0:22:12.040 --> 0:22:16.560 So I had a plan. But a year ago I 0:22:16.640 --> 0:22:18.840 got this email saying they wanted to give me an 0:22:18.840 --> 0:22:21.119 honorary doctorate at this college, and I thought it was 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:25.159 a hoax. I said, they got to be fucking crazy. 0:22:25.280 --> 0:22:27.159 So my wife, who is a doctor, she is a 0:22:27.240 --> 0:22:33.000 PhD actually, and she's a scientist. She said, maybe read 0:22:33.040 --> 0:22:36.160 this again, and the guy wrote me again. He said, 0:22:36.160 --> 0:22:37.879 you know, we want to give you this PhD. And 0:22:38.240 --> 0:22:40.720 the guy turned out to be great, this deane, he 0:22:40.920 --> 0:22:43.920 just turned out to be amazing. But he really said, 0:22:44.000 --> 0:22:46.720 we want to give you this PhD in Humanities and 0:22:47.040 --> 0:22:51.720 literature because you were the most accomplished dropout the school 0:22:51.760 --> 0:22:54.040 has ever seen in two hundred year history of its 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:57.320 two hundred year history. So I went there and I 0:23:00.520 --> 0:23:03.840 I got uh work cap and gown, and I got 0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:07.760 a scroll and my wife and our biggest fear was within, 0:23:07.960 --> 0:23:10.440 you know, hidden within the scroll would be some kind 0:23:10.480 --> 0:23:13.639 of invoice or bill for like a gardening bill of 0:23:13.760 --> 0:23:16.639 like eighty thousand dollars or something for what we did 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:19.160 to the to the to the loan of the president. 0:23:19.320 --> 0:23:22.080 But people remembered it, and I mean they're still talking 0:23:22.119 --> 0:23:25.879 about him who was extraordined. I mean, winning the lottery, 0:23:27.160 --> 0:23:29.840 all the lotteries would be probably greater the chances than 0:23:30.160 --> 0:23:35.280 me getting this in this college was this is Hobart College. 0:23:35.320 --> 0:23:40.680 It's a private school in Geneva, New York. And ingam. 0:23:40.720 --> 0:23:45.600 My wife said, you know, we tell people on some 0:23:45.840 --> 0:23:47.680 she sings in my group when we play we play, 0:23:48.600 --> 0:23:50.879 she says, you know what what took She was a 0:23:50.920 --> 0:23:54.960 little kind of mock irritated. She says, what took me 0:23:55.320 --> 0:23:58.440 like five years to get a PhD in the Netherlands, 0:23:58.640 --> 0:24:02.879 took you five minutes. She didn't like that. Sorry, but 0:24:03.000 --> 0:24:06.520 she's a good sport. So we did some shows and 0:24:06.600 --> 0:24:08.840 that's where That's where I rolled into town after the 0:24:08.920 --> 0:24:12.439 tops massacre the supermarket, and that's when the Boss started 0:24:12.520 --> 0:24:18.640 rolling on these these new kinds of topical works. I'm 0:24:18.680 --> 0:24:19.560 doing these videos. 0:24:19.600 --> 0:24:23.680 I'm doing okay. So A what did your parents say 0:24:23.760 --> 0:24:27.480 when you got expelled? And B how did you literally 0:24:28.160 --> 0:24:30.320 decide and get to San Francisco? 0:24:31.240 --> 0:24:35.440 Well? I hitched out after college. I mean I just 0:24:36.560 --> 0:24:39.320 I talked. I mean they love music, so they understood 0:24:39.560 --> 0:24:41.720 to some degree. But when I talked to them, I 0:24:41.760 --> 0:24:43.960 would always say, promise them, yeah, I'm going to go 0:24:44.040 --> 0:24:45.479 back to school. You know. They said, were you going 0:24:45.520 --> 0:24:48.120 to go back? You ever going to Yeah? I said, yeah, 0:24:48.119 --> 0:24:50.399 I'm going to go back. This went on for years. 0:24:51.400 --> 0:24:53.200 I think I had two records out and I was 0:24:53.280 --> 0:24:55.200 still telling you I was going to go back to college. 0:24:57.840 --> 0:25:00.560 So what you hitch site? Did you have any money? 0:25:00.600 --> 0:25:02.680 You landed in San Francisco? What happens? 0:25:03.080 --> 0:25:05.040 Not? Really? I saved a little well. I had a 0:25:05.080 --> 0:25:08.879 little folk group. We did a Woodn't anything. There was 0:25:08.880 --> 0:25:14.080 a guy named Harry Altman. Harry Altman ran the Town Casino, 0:25:15.760 --> 0:25:18.240 which was which was the club. It was like the 0:25:18.840 --> 0:25:21.000 guy I'm trying to think of a comparison in New York. 0:25:23.400 --> 0:25:25.320 I mean it was a supper club that had like 0:25:26.080 --> 0:25:30.560 people like Sinatra, Dean Martin, all these people. He was 0:25:30.640 --> 0:25:33.520 friends with all these people. So I had this idea 0:25:33.560 --> 0:25:34.720 and I went up to I says, you know, I'd 0:25:34.760 --> 0:25:37.119 like to do like a hoot and anything like because 0:25:37.119 --> 0:25:38.680 I figured I could make some money to go to 0:25:38.760 --> 0:25:41.639 the coast. So I had a little group and he 0:25:41.800 --> 0:25:44.639 was very receptive because you see, I've heard about this 0:25:44.800 --> 0:25:49.040 folk music stuff. Yeah, nanny, hmmm, Well we could give 0:25:49.040 --> 0:25:53.159 it a we could give it a whirl. And and 0:25:53.440 --> 0:25:55.480 the place we were doing it was in the Glen Casino, 0:25:55.520 --> 0:25:58.320 which is near where I lived, you know, in the 0:25:58.400 --> 0:26:04.000 suburbs and Snyder. And then the Union got wind of 0:26:04.080 --> 0:26:06.520 it and I had to get out of the union 0:26:06.600 --> 0:26:09.119 and join the union. But I couldn't play. I couldn't 0:26:09.160 --> 0:26:12.199 read me well, I had studied piano, but I couldn't 0:26:12.200 --> 0:26:15.000 read music enough to play guitar on a session in Buffalo, 0:26:15.080 --> 0:26:17.760 New York with jazz guys or anything like that. But 0:26:17.880 --> 0:26:19.640 they were trying to figure out a way to make 0:26:19.720 --> 0:26:22.240 the money, get me to pay for the union, but 0:26:22.400 --> 0:26:27.680 not have me do any work for the union. So 0:26:27.720 --> 0:26:31.520 I had that pan a couple hundred bucks, got in 0:26:31.560 --> 0:26:36.639 the union. Harry Oltman was happy about that. And I 0:26:36.720 --> 0:26:39.080 mean for years they came around to the clubs I 0:26:39.160 --> 0:26:42.119 played in the States, collecting dues. A guy in a 0:26:42.160 --> 0:26:45.240 trench call like Peter falkould come and wait til the 0:26:45.359 --> 0:26:48.000 end of the show and want twenty bucks and give 0:26:48.040 --> 0:26:52.520 me like a like a receipt this stuff when I mean, 0:26:52.560 --> 0:26:55.119 I want to and I mean it was crazy because 0:26:55.160 --> 0:26:58.679 I I you know, but we so we did this thing. 0:26:58.760 --> 0:27:01.280 It was a huge success. Harry Oltman couldn't believe it. 0:27:02.440 --> 0:27:05.600 And we had this packed house and I made a 0:27:05.640 --> 0:27:09.560 few hundred bucks, took my guitar and I hitchhiked west, 0:27:10.119 --> 0:27:14.840 got rise and met my friend in California and we 0:27:14.960 --> 0:27:17.720 went up to went up and got a place in 0:27:17.800 --> 0:27:20.840 Stinton Beach in Marin County. This is like nineteen sixty three. 0:27:22.080 --> 0:27:24.159 And then I went down to the Coffee Gallery and 0:27:26.359 --> 0:27:30.200 North Beach, which is kind of the Italian equivalent village 0:27:30.680 --> 0:27:34.840 Greenwage Village, San Francisco. And I got a gig at 0:27:34.880 --> 0:27:37.040 the Coffee Gallery and I was playing there a couple 0:27:37.080 --> 0:27:39.920 of nights a week. Gino Valente. You know, come on, people, 0:27:39.960 --> 0:27:44.040 Let's get together. He wrote that song about peace, you know, 0:27:46.000 --> 0:27:47.480 Gino Valente h. 0:27:47.480 --> 0:27:49.600 Of course he was also beating quick Silver passengers. 0:27:50.040 --> 0:27:52.120 Yeah, he was. His name is Chet. He had another 0:27:52.320 --> 0:27:55.520 Chet something right. Anyway, he wrote a song about peace 0:27:55.560 --> 0:27:59.360 and walked around dealing dope with a boweying k I've 0:27:59.440 --> 0:28:04.359 strapped to his thigh walk in the streets. And then 0:28:04.720 --> 0:28:07.119 Janet Shopping played another couple of nights, so we were 0:28:07.160 --> 0:28:09.240 all we had this little thing going at the Coffee 0:28:09.280 --> 0:28:12.440 Gery and that's where TODM. Paxson found me and he 0:28:12.560 --> 0:28:14.080 invited me to New York and that's how I got 0:28:14.119 --> 0:28:16.960 into the singer songwriter sing So. 0:28:17.080 --> 0:28:20.920 Before we get to New York. You were there when 0:28:20.960 --> 0:28:23.760 the bead poets were the thing, before it broke through, 0:28:23.920 --> 0:28:28.080 before all the hippies ultimately came. Sixty five, sixty six, 0:28:28.160 --> 0:28:31.440 sixty seven. What was it like and did you have 0:28:31.640 --> 0:28:34.440 access to fur Ling Getty and all these other people? 0:28:35.760 --> 0:28:40.920 Well, yes, and no, I mean I was there. I 0:28:41.040 --> 0:28:45.640 met a poet named David Meltzer, and he's a published 0:28:45.680 --> 0:28:48.240 poet and he's written he wrote a book about the beats. 0:28:48.280 --> 0:28:51.160 He's he was very much into the scene with Michael 0:28:51.240 --> 0:28:57.960 McClure and those people, Philip Whalen and he was working 0:28:58.000 --> 0:29:01.000 at the City Lights Bookstarting through David, I met Farle 0:29:01.080 --> 0:29:05.960 and Getty and then then Alan gins were going to 0:29:06.000 --> 0:29:11.280 come in from Cambodia from Vietnam. He floated into town 0:29:11.880 --> 0:29:14.280 in all white, looking like he was an Indian guru, 0:29:15.280 --> 0:29:21.000 and I met him and met McClure, and uh. Of course, 0:29:21.040 --> 0:29:23.320 Alan gainsber was very much against the Vietnam War. He 0:29:23.480 --> 0:29:25.560 was over there and he saw all the stuff that 0:29:25.680 --> 0:29:31.880 was going on before it escalated. So and David, David 0:29:31.920 --> 0:29:33.840 and I had a little group called the Snoops County 0:29:33.880 --> 0:29:36.400 Camp Followers, which is like a little folk group that 0:29:36.560 --> 0:29:40.760 included my wife, Debbie Green, who was a singer. And 0:29:40.840 --> 0:29:44.920 she owned a club called the Cabal out there and Berkeley. 0:29:45.160 --> 0:29:48.200 The Cabal is a club. This is a kind of 0:29:48.240 --> 0:29:53.880 a tangent tangent tangent gentle uh interview. But she had 0:29:53.880 --> 0:29:56.120 a club that you know, like Lightning Hopkins auld play 0:29:56.200 --> 0:30:01.880 and Doc Watson, you know, Clarence A Actually Lenny Bruce, 0:30:02.400 --> 0:30:05.080 you know, they would play her club. It was kind 0:30:05.120 --> 0:30:08.680 of modeled up to the Club forty seven became later 0:30:09.000 --> 0:30:11.880 became an item and went to New York. 0:30:11.920 --> 0:30:16.480 But well, okay, what point did you start playing original material? 0:30:17.400 --> 0:30:18.960 Well, I was doing. I was doing. I was doing 0:30:19.000 --> 0:30:22.640 original material starting in San Francisco. I was trying stuff out. 0:30:23.720 --> 0:30:25.880 I mean, I wanted to be a writer. That that 0:30:26.080 --> 0:30:28.040 was that I knew. 0:30:29.280 --> 0:30:31.920 How'd you meet Tom Paxton And how did he convince 0:30:31.960 --> 0:30:32.800 you to come to New York? 0:30:33.480 --> 0:30:36.280 He was playing at the Cabal where Debbie had this club, 0:30:36.360 --> 0:30:40.000 and then he she brought him over to the Coffee Gallery. 0:30:40.080 --> 0:30:42.560 You heard me play, and he liked my act and 0:30:42.720 --> 0:30:44.520 he invited me to New York and said, here, stay 0:30:44.560 --> 0:30:47.520 in my house. He gave me the keys. So I 0:30:47.640 --> 0:30:49.520 went there, and Debbie and I went there and we 0:30:49.640 --> 0:30:51.720 lived in his house. He was in England for a while, 0:30:53.040 --> 0:30:55.720 and then I met Phil Oaks and Phil Phil took 0:30:55.800 --> 0:30:59.680 me around the streets. I met Davon Rock, I met Dylan, 0:30:59.760 --> 0:31:06.600 bob On Everybody, Patrick Sky, Buffy, Saint Marie, and and 0:31:06.680 --> 0:31:08.719 then I got a deal with Vanguard Records. 0:31:09.880 --> 0:31:12.840 Okay, before you get there, you hitchhiked to California. How 0:31:12.880 --> 0:31:14.560 do you get from California to New York. 0:31:16.080 --> 0:31:18.720 I flew to my parents' house in Buffalo. I stayed 0:31:18.720 --> 0:31:20.960 there for a couple of months to detox kind of. 0:31:21.800 --> 0:31:24.760 And then I went to New York and to Paxson's place. 0:31:25.680 --> 0:31:27.760 But when I was in, when I was at my house, 0:31:28.480 --> 0:31:33.320 all this stuff's in bios and stuff. Actually, But when 0:31:33.360 --> 0:31:35.320 I got to my my parents' house, it was nice 0:31:35.480 --> 0:31:37.520 because I could sit at the dining room table and 0:31:37.600 --> 0:31:41.320 I really started writing songs. Uh. I wrote a song 0:31:41.360 --> 0:31:44.960 called come on My bed Side there I remember, so 0:31:45.040 --> 0:31:46.719 it was a it was kind of a beautiful, very 0:31:46.760 --> 0:31:53.480 innocent time. And then I got, I think, uh, somehow 0:31:53.480 --> 0:31:56.600 I got to ride to New York and and then 0:31:56.640 --> 0:31:57.200 it all began. 0:31:58.000 --> 0:31:59.680 Now, Debbie was with you the whole time. 0:32:00.280 --> 0:32:02.840 Yeah, she flew she flew in and then joined me 0:32:02.880 --> 0:32:03.360 in New York. 0:32:04.640 --> 0:32:09.520 Okay, so you're now in Tom Paxton's apartment. You're there 0:32:09.640 --> 0:32:13.120 with Debbie. You don't really know anybody. 0:32:13.440 --> 0:32:18.520 What happens, Well, phil Oaks took me around to meet 0:32:18.560 --> 0:32:22.600 a lot of people film and uh, and then and Dylan, 0:32:22.680 --> 0:32:24.840 you know, he introduced me to some people. I think 0:32:24.880 --> 0:32:28.360 he introduced me to Jack Elliott. And but you know, 0:32:28.680 --> 0:32:30.440 Bob was making you know, he was doing tours and 0:32:30.520 --> 0:32:33.240 making some good money. He was you know, he was 0:32:33.520 --> 0:32:37.280 doing sol tourists driving around. I mean, I think when 0:32:37.320 --> 0:32:39.840 I hit when I hit this, when I hit the set, 0:32:40.040 --> 0:32:42.800 I think he'd had three records out, you know, but 0:32:42.960 --> 0:32:46.080 he'd becoming down and plants testing stuff, and you know, 0:32:46.160 --> 0:32:49.800 in the clubs, which is great, and hang out and 0:32:49.800 --> 0:32:53.200 it was all about writers and writing and uh, this 0:32:53.360 --> 0:32:56.400 little this little group that thought could change the world. 0:32:56.480 --> 0:33:00.440 I mean, we're talking about four or five songwriters of 0:33:00.560 --> 0:33:03.760 this kind of this kind of you know, people like 0:33:04.200 --> 0:33:07.000 Bob and David Blue and phil Oaks. It was just 0:33:07.160 --> 0:33:09.840 this a little handful. And there were guys who played 0:33:09.880 --> 0:33:13.080 over the night out, people like the great Fred Neil 0:33:13.280 --> 0:33:15.040 was like it was my favorite of all of them, 0:33:15.640 --> 0:33:19.280 but he and Tim Harden and people at least at Kendrick. 0:33:19.360 --> 0:33:21.240 These people played in the night Out. There's a whole 0:33:21.320 --> 0:33:25.840 thing over there, you know. And people like Lou Reed 0:33:25.840 --> 0:33:27.760 I never met. He was over on the East Side 0:33:27.800 --> 0:33:35.080 doing stuff, playing different things, clubs and stuff. So phil Oaks, 0:33:37.320 --> 0:33:40.480 phil Oaks will come on. You're saying, saying, Bob, how 0:33:40.520 --> 0:33:42.200 are we going to do this? This is nineteen sixty 0:33:42.280 --> 0:33:44.280 four and it's now twenty twenty three. 0:33:45.640 --> 0:33:48.600 How are we going to Well, we're going, as I say, 0:33:49.240 --> 0:33:53.080 we started this, we started with your new record. As 0:33:53.160 --> 0:33:55.840 I say, I'm willing to jump back to twenty twenty three. 0:33:55.960 --> 0:33:57.960 If there's something specific you want to mention. 0:33:59.280 --> 0:34:01.200 I don't know. I don't know. I'm just wondering. It's 0:34:01.240 --> 0:34:04.840 a there's a lot of a lot of a lot 0:34:04.880 --> 0:34:08.560 of territory. But anyway, Yeah, So it was an exciting 0:34:08.640 --> 0:34:13.480 time and I think the highlight for me of being 0:34:13.560 --> 0:34:16.800 in the village was I had signed with Vanguard Records 0:34:16.840 --> 0:34:20.080 and had recorded, but I didn't the record didn't come 0:34:20.160 --> 0:34:23.200 up for ages. It seemed like an eternity. It's like 0:34:23.320 --> 0:34:25.640 being a kid trying to watch in the clock one 0:34:25.680 --> 0:34:29.040 as you know one is French French lessons going to 0:34:29.080 --> 0:34:32.239 be over, and like the hour never ends. And it 0:34:32.400 --> 0:34:34.800 was like this. I waited like a year and a 0:34:34.880 --> 0:34:37.640 half or something to the till the Bloody record came out, 0:34:37.719 --> 0:34:41.520 the first album, and it seemed like an eternity. And 0:34:41.560 --> 0:34:43.760 I was living on the Lower East Side, cooking for junkies, 0:34:44.160 --> 0:34:49.439 you know, on East tenth Street. So finally the one 0:34:49.560 --> 0:34:55.320 thing that was really good was it people in the village. 0:34:55.440 --> 0:34:57.040 I got to know all the club owners, like from 0:34:57.080 --> 0:35:01.200 the Gate Art to Lougovin. People are like people that 0:35:01.719 --> 0:35:05.120 the village vanguard, the jazz places and I and the 0:35:05.400 --> 0:35:09.000 people like the gas light and clubs like that on 0:35:09.200 --> 0:35:12.359 Gurtish Folks City. I had done one gig because Robert 0:35:12.400 --> 0:35:14.120 Shelton in the New York Times got me a gig 0:35:14.160 --> 0:35:17.200 at Folks City, and then kind of nothing happened. It 0:35:17.360 --> 0:35:19.080 was a good gig. Me and John Lee Hooker did 0:35:19.120 --> 0:35:22.319 a gig, but then nothing happens. I'm sitting around cooking 0:35:22.400 --> 0:35:26.760 for chunkies, trying to do some gardening and for people, 0:35:26.880 --> 0:35:30.880 and going to these clubs at night. And then I 0:35:31.000 --> 0:35:33.040 lived up at Broadside Magazine. I don't know if you've 0:35:33.040 --> 0:35:35.920 heard of that. That broad of course topical songwriting. So 0:35:35.920 --> 0:35:40.320 I lived up there. But the most important thing is 0:35:40.400 --> 0:35:44.040 that people were playing for a week at venues. You 0:35:44.120 --> 0:35:54.160 know light it happens, you know Mississippi, John Hurt, Doc Watson, 0:35:54.520 --> 0:35:58.960 Clarence Ashley, all these people devon round fill everybody did 0:35:59.000 --> 0:36:01.360 we go in to a club and play for a 0:36:01.440 --> 0:36:05.440 week all over America. Miles Davids, John Coltrane, mingus we 0:36:05.560 --> 0:36:08.200 play the game for a week. So I could get 0:36:08.239 --> 0:36:10.400 down there and I'd sit at their knees at these 0:36:10.480 --> 0:36:14.680 people's knees. And this was my PhD in music. I mean, 0:36:15.160 --> 0:36:19.120 and sit there every single night and hear Lightning Hopkins 0:36:19.880 --> 0:36:21.960 and it blew my mind. And I don't think many 0:36:21.960 --> 0:36:25.800 people can say that. So, I mean, that's where I 0:36:25.880 --> 0:36:30.359 really learned, how about touch space music? You know, though 0:36:30.400 --> 0:36:32.600 I didn't apply everything I learned right away, because I 0:36:32.680 --> 0:36:34.800 can tell by all the scratch marks on my guitar. 0:36:34.920 --> 0:36:38.960 I was really overplaying sometimes it was a loud song. 0:36:39.120 --> 0:36:41.480 I gotta play loud, you know, and it doesn't. And 0:36:41.520 --> 0:36:43.239 I later I found out it really didn't work that 0:36:43.320 --> 0:36:45.800 way because it's all about space. 0:36:47.160 --> 0:36:49.120 You said you were cooking for junkies. What were you 0:36:49.280 --> 0:36:51.800 literally doing cooking for junkies? 0:36:51.800 --> 0:36:56.000 I was like living on a West t debian e. 0:36:56.040 --> 0:36:57.960 Were lived on West tenth Street. These guys lived on 0:36:58.080 --> 0:37:01.000 Ice Street. And I'd get down and go to the markets, 0:37:02.000 --> 0:37:04.359 the vegelable marketing stuff, had a kid to the place, 0:37:04.440 --> 0:37:06.680 go and cook launch for Then they'd be they'd be 0:37:06.760 --> 0:37:08.160 knotted out in the living room and I'd go and 0:37:08.280 --> 0:37:09.479 take plates to them food. 0:37:10.600 --> 0:37:11.880 And they paid you for this. 0:37:12.200 --> 0:37:14.160 They paid me, Yeah, they paid me. I mean, I 0:37:14.200 --> 0:37:16.200 don't know how much. Thirty bucks a week or something. 0:37:16.280 --> 0:37:16.600 I don't know. 0:37:17.280 --> 0:37:18.399 And what was Debbie doing. 0:37:19.440 --> 0:37:22.440 Debbie was going between here and Boston. I mean there 0:37:22.480 --> 0:37:26.520 in Boston, you know she was. She had her things, 0:37:27.040 --> 0:37:29.439 she had. We got kicked out of this place, said 0:37:29.440 --> 0:37:32.600 a German landlord. Was on Eastown Street. He took me 0:37:32.680 --> 0:37:34.560 out in the back and set me out of set 0:37:34.640 --> 0:37:38.120 me down on a milk carton. He said, I got 0:37:38.200 --> 0:37:43.440 to talk to you. I said, yes, what's wrong the rent? No? No, 0:37:44.120 --> 0:37:47.880 he said, are you married to that girl? And I 0:37:48.000 --> 0:37:51.400 said no. He said, you know, I didn't think so. 0:37:52.360 --> 0:37:55.000 And I'm gonna I'm going to evict you from this place. 0:37:55.600 --> 0:37:59.120 Evict me for what he said, because you and her 0:37:59.680 --> 0:38:02.840 are the reason Adam and iQue got thrown out of 0:38:02.920 --> 0:38:08.520 the garden of beating. Pack your bags be out of 0:38:08.520 --> 0:38:11.960 here in a week. I mean, you couldn't make this 0:38:12.080 --> 0:38:15.719 ship up. But these are the kinds of things that 0:38:15.800 --> 0:38:20.400 were happening. I mean, you never knew everything. It's like 0:38:20.680 --> 0:38:22.600 a piano fell out of a tree and hitch on 0:38:22.680 --> 0:38:25.920 the head. You don't have any You never prepared for 0:38:26.000 --> 0:38:26.439 these things. 0:38:27.680 --> 0:38:29.000 How'd you get your record deal? 0:38:30.920 --> 0:38:34.680 Well? I think Tom Paxston called Robert Shelton at the 0:38:34.719 --> 0:38:41.680 New York Times, and Robert Shelton came down to Tom's 0:38:41.719 --> 0:38:47.160 house and I played him some songs. I was sitting 0:38:47.160 --> 0:38:49.440 in a chair, he was sitting on the bed, and 0:38:50.440 --> 0:38:52.160 he liked what he heard and he wrote a thing. 0:38:52.640 --> 0:38:54.960 He wrote. He got arranged for a gig at the 0:38:56.440 --> 0:38:58.400 Curtius Folks City, and he wrote a thing about me 0:38:58.440 --> 0:39:00.880 in the New York Times that I was the antidote 0:39:00.920 --> 0:39:04.680 to the Beatles. Because Robert Shelton was a writer who 0:39:05.120 --> 0:39:11.160 a brilliant guy. He believed that after Elvis in the 0:39:11.280 --> 0:39:14.200 fifties and the rock and roll, the next big thing 0:39:14.280 --> 0:39:17.759 should be the singer songwriters, the phil oaks Is and 0:39:17.840 --> 0:39:20.680 the Bob Dylans, and that should be the big thing 0:39:20.719 --> 0:39:25.200 in American culture. Is musically, the Beatles were immortal ono 0:39:25.239 --> 0:39:28.080 me to him. And the ironic thing is that the 0:39:28.120 --> 0:39:32.400 Beatles manager became my manager, Brian Epston. That was the 0:39:34.239 --> 0:39:36.560 whole twist. And the headline of this article is the 0:39:36.560 --> 0:39:41.000 Antidote to the Beatles. So there you go. I mean, 0:39:41.040 --> 0:39:43.840 like I said, it's like the piano's falling out of 0:39:43.920 --> 0:39:50.200 the trees. So he called Robert Shelton, called Maynard Solomon 0:39:50.239 --> 0:39:52.279 and manutt Solomon came down. He said on the bed, 0:39:52.320 --> 0:39:55.839 and I said on the terror, and I sang them 0:39:55.920 --> 0:39:58.040 songs and we went and he got me a deal 0:39:58.560 --> 0:40:02.719 and that was it. I mean, almost too easy, you know, 0:40:02.760 --> 0:40:04.520 it was almost too easy. It was ridiculous. 0:40:12.120 --> 0:40:15.000 Okay, while you're cooking for junkies waiting for the album 0:40:15.080 --> 0:40:17.440 to come out, are you playing out live? No? 0:40:17.600 --> 0:40:19.960 Like I said, I couldn't get any work waiting for 0:40:20.040 --> 0:40:23.239 this record to come out. I'm sitting around doing nothing. 0:40:23.280 --> 0:40:26.200 I'm just going to hear people playing clubs. 0:40:27.520 --> 0:40:29.399 So what happens when the record does come out? 0:40:30.640 --> 0:40:33.440 Nothing happened right away, but you know, suddenly there, you know, 0:40:33.480 --> 0:40:36.400 people were interested in it because it got really good reviews. 0:40:37.600 --> 0:40:40.839 And so I started playing gigs, you know, for a week, 0:40:41.000 --> 0:40:44.360 like like like Miles did, and like Hofkins did, and 0:40:44.360 --> 0:40:47.719 all these all my heroes. So you go to you'd 0:40:47.760 --> 0:40:49.480 go play a gig in Cleveland, you go play a 0:40:49.520 --> 0:40:51.920 gig in Chicago, you go play a gig in Montreal, 0:40:52.000 --> 0:40:53.799 you go play a gig in Toronto, you go play 0:40:53.800 --> 0:40:56.400 a gig in Atlanta, and it's like you could you 0:40:56.480 --> 0:40:59.200 could live there. You knew the restaurants, you knew where 0:40:59.200 --> 0:41:02.400 the movie theaters, you could start a family. I mean, 0:41:02.480 --> 0:41:06.160 it was just you basically moved into a town. You 0:41:06.560 --> 0:41:10.880 became this sort of weird Dennison of a city. It 0:41:11.000 --> 0:41:15.200 was incredible, you know. And you know then, so the 0:41:15.239 --> 0:41:18.120 people like me who could see Light Hopkins played for 0:41:18.239 --> 0:41:22.279 a week or Mississippi John like multiple times in a 0:41:22.400 --> 0:41:27.600 year to see these guys play. People were lucky if 0:41:27.640 --> 0:41:29.960 they could even see him play at a college concert 0:41:30.080 --> 0:41:33.319 somewhere for one night. I mean, the stuff I saw, 0:41:33.400 --> 0:41:38.200 and it doesn't exist anymore, it doesn't skip chains Son House. 0:41:38.480 --> 0:41:43.920 All these people I saw, they're gone. Nobody ever got 0:41:43.960 --> 0:41:46.480 to see him, I mean except the people who paid 0:41:46.520 --> 0:41:49.000 to come, you know, to come to the gigs. But 0:41:49.120 --> 0:41:50.839 I got into free so I could just sit there 0:41:50.880 --> 0:41:54.280 all week. And I think I was the only songwriter 0:41:54.400 --> 0:41:57.319 who was doing that. I didn't. I don't remember seeing 0:41:57.360 --> 0:42:00.680 any pack Center dum Von Rock or Feliks or It 0:42:00.760 --> 0:42:03.560 was only me there catching all these blues acts and 0:42:04.200 --> 0:42:06.640 jazz acts and you know, and the great folk act 0:42:06.719 --> 0:42:13.760 like Clarence Ashley, Gene Ritchie and uh Reverend Gary Davis, 0:42:13.880 --> 0:42:18.400 people like that. I mean, it was phenomenal because then 0:42:18.440 --> 0:42:20.200 I didn't have a record collection I didn't have. I 0:42:20.239 --> 0:42:24.239 didn't have blues records or anything, and it was just phenomenal. 0:42:26.360 --> 0:42:27.640 How did you hook up with Epstein? 0:42:29.280 --> 0:42:31.359 I was playing a gig down at the Steve Paul 0:42:31.520 --> 0:42:35.000 scene and Bob Bobby Columbia was my drummer. Bobby, you know, 0:42:35.239 --> 0:42:39.680 he started blood spotting Terrace later on. Bobby. I don't 0:42:39.680 --> 0:42:41.520 know how the hell I met Bobby Colombia, but he 0:42:42.320 --> 0:42:44.040 but he was my drummer and I had a little band. 0:42:46.120 --> 0:42:52.520 Gabby played some piano and he's somehow knew brianis and 0:42:52.680 --> 0:42:55.480 he just I don't know his brother knew him or something, 0:42:56.560 --> 0:42:58.360 and he brought Brian down. I didn't know if you 0:42:58.440 --> 0:43:01.279 know he was there, Brian was. Brian came down to 0:43:01.360 --> 0:43:03.200 the gate. We played, you know, like another gig for 0:43:03.280 --> 0:43:06.239 a week. Brian came down for every single night, and 0:43:06.280 --> 0:43:08.160 I didn't know he was there for like five nights. 0:43:09.040 --> 0:43:10.880 But I just there was this guy sitting there in 0:43:10.920 --> 0:43:13.640 the middle. There was always this one person sitting at 0:43:13.680 --> 0:43:16.960 the at the table there. And then finally I met 0:43:17.040 --> 0:43:19.200 him and we went to Bobby's. He wanted he said, 0:43:19.239 --> 0:43:21.200 can I manage you? You know, I'd love to do that. 0:43:21.280 --> 0:43:25.160 I said, sure, he said, Oh, I mean this is 0:43:25.200 --> 0:43:27.799 the guy who really trusted. I mean, we loved him 0:43:27.840 --> 0:43:31.440 right away. We were just shattered when he died. It 0:43:31.560 --> 0:43:35.880 was like it's really horrible, really horrible, because he had 0:43:35.920 --> 0:43:38.239 this thing. He just said, look, just do what you do. 0:43:38.840 --> 0:43:41.560 Just don't call me. Remember there's six hours difference, five 0:43:41.640 --> 0:43:44.560 hours differences during England and London and New York. Don't 0:43:44.600 --> 0:43:46.680 call me at night because I'm trying to sleep, because 0:43:46.719 --> 0:43:50.000 I didn't think about the time difference, you know. So 0:43:50.160 --> 0:43:52.320 but he said, look, just do what you do and 0:43:52.400 --> 0:43:54.200 if it's okay with you, I'll try to put you 0:43:54.320 --> 0:43:56.640 in very special places. If you approve of it, I 0:43:56.719 --> 0:43:59.759 agree with it. And that was the only managerial thing 0:44:00.120 --> 0:44:00.439 was said. 0:44:01.600 --> 0:44:07.280 So you make a number of albums for Vanguard, ultimately six. 0:44:08.000 --> 0:44:11.319 It supports your touring in these varying cities. But can 0:44:11.400 --> 0:44:14.080 you feel the momentum building or. 0:44:14.160 --> 0:44:17.840 What was it like? Well, I don't know. Show business 0:44:17.840 --> 0:44:22.680 ever was my thing, you know, as my record sales 0:44:22.680 --> 0:44:26.600 will a test. I mean I've never been. I think 0:44:26.719 --> 0:44:32.440 my main interest is writing, always exploring my mindset is 0:44:32.520 --> 0:44:36.560 I was just I was in a dugout canoe somewhere 0:44:36.600 --> 0:44:39.080 at the Amazon River and I just was paddling upstream 0:44:39.160 --> 0:44:41.560 to see what I could find. So, I mean, I 0:44:41.640 --> 0:44:44.680 was always interested in the writing. And then of course 0:44:44.719 --> 0:44:47.200 you document the stuff and make records and you experiment 0:44:47.239 --> 0:44:50.440 with music and you fool around and stuff. But I 0:44:50.520 --> 0:44:53.640 guess the momentum was building. Yeah, things were happening, but 0:44:53.760 --> 0:44:59.279 I didn't. I can't tell you anything about how much 0:44:59.320 --> 0:44:59.920 I thought about it. 0:45:00.719 --> 0:45:02.200 I'd you end up on Warner Brothers. 0:45:04.400 --> 0:45:10.440 Oh, this friend of Philokes is uh Andy Wickham signed me? 0:45:11.760 --> 0:45:16.200 And was that a good experience or bad experience? Well, 0:45:16.520 --> 0:45:18.719 I think they gave me too much freedom, O the way. 0:45:20.320 --> 0:45:23.080 One album I made in Nashville that was pretty good 0:45:23.120 --> 0:45:26.680 and some good well they all had good songs. But 0:45:26.760 --> 0:45:29.000 the other one in LA was kind of it was 0:45:29.120 --> 0:45:32.319 kind of a big band extravaganza, and I didn't think 0:45:32.360 --> 0:45:34.439 it worked at all. I think there were some really 0:45:34.520 --> 0:45:37.000 good songs in it, but it didn't really do that well. 0:45:37.080 --> 0:45:40.560 And even Eve Babbis did the cover you know her 0:45:41.320 --> 0:45:45.440 of course recently died. Yes, we were friends, and she 0:45:45.560 --> 0:45:50.560 did she did a cover and uh and uh the 0:45:50.600 --> 0:45:53.600 record didn't do very well. So Mo Austin said, look, 0:45:53.600 --> 0:45:57.320 I'm going to release you and hey, you can have 0:45:57.400 --> 0:46:01.800 the tapes, okay. And I'm living in Venice, and you know, 0:46:03.360 --> 0:46:06.400 I mean I have no sense of business at all. 0:46:06.520 --> 0:46:09.480 I mean I think I think my dog has more 0:46:09.560 --> 0:46:12.960 sense of business than I do. But I and then 0:46:13.040 --> 0:46:19.440 Clive Davis came along and signed me from from Columbia Records. 0:46:20.200 --> 0:46:22.040 Can you be a little bit more specific? How did 0:46:22.080 --> 0:46:23.560 you connect with Clive Davis? 0:46:24.320 --> 0:46:27.240 I think, I think again it was like through Bobby 0:46:27.360 --> 0:46:31.360 Bobby Columbia. Again, it was both of these things happened 0:46:31.400 --> 0:46:31.920 through Bobby. 0:46:34.239 --> 0:46:37.919 So you switched to Colombia and you make Blue River, 0:46:38.600 --> 0:46:41.400 which is considered to be legendary and has some impact. 0:46:41.520 --> 0:46:43.720 Did you feel that on the inside. 0:46:43.960 --> 0:46:47.760 Yeah, I mean I knew there was a special, something 0:46:47.920 --> 0:46:50.040 very special happened. I mean because it was kind of 0:46:50.160 --> 0:46:52.399 taped together in a way. I mean, forgive the pun, 0:46:52.600 --> 0:46:55.399 but because I did some of the stuff. I did 0:46:55.480 --> 0:46:58.600 one track with Roy Halley and San Francisco. I did 0:46:59.360 --> 0:47:03.040 one track New York at Columbia Studios. I did two 0:47:03.200 --> 0:47:06.319 tracks at Wally Hyder's in LA I did the rest 0:47:07.400 --> 0:47:10.080 the other five tracks in Nashville, and somehow the guy 0:47:10.160 --> 0:47:12.319 put it together. It sounded like it was all done. 0:47:13.800 --> 0:47:16.200 I don't know how it happened. This was like something 0:47:16.239 --> 0:47:19.120 that this is mono from having or something. I don't 0:47:19.160 --> 0:47:21.400 know how it happened. And then there you go. You 0:47:21.520 --> 0:47:24.480 got a thing that's like more than some of its parts. 0:47:25.600 --> 0:47:27.840 I mean, the sum is greater than the you know, 0:47:28.960 --> 0:47:29.600 than the parts. 0:47:30.800 --> 0:47:36.360 Gestalt And how did you end up moving from Columbia 0:47:36.400 --> 0:47:37.480 day Arista. 0:47:39.280 --> 0:47:45.520 Well, my second album for Columbia got lost, I think 0:47:45.600 --> 0:47:49.400 on purpose, because when I was making the album, Clive 0:47:49.480 --> 0:47:54.440 got fired. People all over Columbia Records was crawling with 0:47:54.640 --> 0:47:59.600 FBI people. There's like pay all accusations and drugs, and 0:48:00.440 --> 0:48:03.759 I mean the whole place was exploding. Clive had you know, 0:48:04.200 --> 0:48:08.800 Clyde was on the streets. And the people that Clive 0:48:08.920 --> 0:48:11.439 picked for me, who worked with me, they weren't into 0:48:11.640 --> 0:48:14.680 I don't think they were so interested in losing their gigs. 0:48:14.680 --> 0:48:17.719 They are very ambitious at Sony or Columbia, and I 0:48:17.800 --> 0:48:20.640 think they held on to their jobs. Nobody wanted to 0:48:20.680 --> 0:48:26.480 finish this album and it just got dropped. So we 0:48:26.640 --> 0:48:29.840 finished it in Nashville. We finished it, and then I 0:48:29.880 --> 0:48:33.800 got a call in New York from somebody from and naturally, oops, 0:48:33.840 --> 0:48:37.680 we got to tell sorry, we think your album got lost. Well, 0:48:37.719 --> 0:48:41.640 of course nothing gets lost. And years later a woman 0:48:41.760 --> 0:48:46.680 named Amy Herriton started this research around the world at Columbia, 0:48:47.719 --> 0:48:54.120 I mean searching all the vaults from Tokyo to Paris, London, Berlin, 0:48:54.239 --> 0:48:58.520 everywhere there was vaults Columbia, they or you know CBS records. 0:48:58.560 --> 0:49:01.279 They searched us in and they turned it out, turned 0:49:01.360 --> 0:49:06.000 up and they were in Nashville because a truck came 0:49:06.120 --> 0:49:10.880 up with no identification went into the vaults on fifty 0:49:10.920 --> 0:49:14.719 first Street. A lot of the tapes of Columbia are 0:49:14.800 --> 0:49:17.400 like where IBM keeps stuff, and it's in a mountain 0:49:17.520 --> 0:49:21.919 up and near Woodstock, like a mountain. What's it called. 0:49:22.200 --> 0:49:23.480 There's a name, Iron Mountain. 0:49:23.920 --> 0:49:26.719 Yeah. So they got all but anyway, some stuff was put. 0:49:27.040 --> 0:49:29.600 So they dumped all these tapes all over the floor 0:49:30.320 --> 0:49:35.120 in the middle of the night with no signing and 0:49:35.239 --> 0:49:39.040 no signing out, no nothing. Somebody just ran in from 0:49:39.080 --> 0:49:41.960 a truck dumped the ta They saw them. Somebody saw them, 0:49:42.040 --> 0:49:46.680 but nobody knew who they were. Dumped the tapes and 0:49:47.040 --> 0:49:51.440 the next day a guy who worked there was carrying 0:49:51.480 --> 0:49:54.120 a whole armful of tapes that went over his head, 0:49:54.520 --> 0:49:56.960 walked around the corner, slipped on the tapes that are 0:49:57.040 --> 0:50:00.879 ond the floor, broke his vertebrand, his back and he's 0:50:00.920 --> 0:50:04.759 been out of work ever since. Wow, and that's how 0:50:04.800 --> 0:50:08.080 the tapes are found. So you go to. 0:50:08.120 --> 0:50:12.400 Arista just when Clive Davis starts that company. You make 0:50:12.400 --> 0:50:16.040 a couple of albums there. The record copany doesn't even 0:50:16.120 --> 0:50:18.839 have that many records, he puts out. Patty Smith puts 0:50:18.880 --> 0:50:22.840 out Eric Carmon, did you feel you got the proper 0:50:22.880 --> 0:50:24.879 attention you made the right records there? 0:50:26.239 --> 0:50:28.120 Well, he was just starting up. I mean, you know 0:50:28.280 --> 0:50:31.160 you make records, you don't. I mean, I don't know 0:50:31.239 --> 0:50:33.040 if they were right. They felt that, you know, they 0:50:33.120 --> 0:50:35.120 feel right when you're doing it, but that doesn't mean 0:50:35.160 --> 0:50:36.359 in hindsight they were right. 0:50:39.040 --> 0:50:42.040 So ultimately you end up moving to Norway. How does 0:50:42.120 --> 0:50:42.720 that happen? 0:50:44.719 --> 0:50:48.000 You meet somebody you know, like journalists? Well, I don't 0:50:48.000 --> 0:50:51.319 know about you, but sometimes a journalist will say, well, 0:50:51.320 --> 0:50:53.239 why did you, why did you? Why are you in 0:50:53.280 --> 0:50:56.279 the Netherlands? You say a woman and there's never a 0:50:56.400 --> 0:51:01.520 follow up. Course it's incredible in your case, I don't know, 0:51:01.719 --> 0:51:02.480 I can't predict. 0:51:04.280 --> 0:51:08.839 So where'd you meet this woman. I think I met 0:51:08.880 --> 0:51:12.200 her in I met her in Norway and you were 0:51:12.239 --> 0:51:12.760 there working. 0:51:13.880 --> 0:51:16.680 Yeah, I met her return of concert, I met her. 0:51:17.320 --> 0:51:19.960 And what had happened between you and Debbie at this point? 0:51:20.640 --> 0:51:23.160 Oh, deb and Debbie and I had been separated for 0:51:26.960 --> 0:51:30.840 twenty years, but we still got together making Did you 0:51:30.880 --> 0:51:32.200 ever see the movie the song. 0:51:32.080 --> 0:51:34.319 Poet, not the whole thing? 0:51:34.440 --> 0:51:38.239 No? Well, if you watch the whole Thaniel, you understand more. 0:51:40.320 --> 0:51:43.400 Okay, And that's something you'd rather not speak about. 0:51:44.000 --> 0:51:46.920 Well, I mean you know that's already on record. No, 0:51:47.040 --> 0:51:53.200 I mean you know it's there the story, okayage journalist. Man, 0:51:53.239 --> 0:51:55.319 it's I'm the one living the life and doing the art. 0:51:55.440 --> 0:52:01.200 So okay, So you had you had a daughter? Was 0:52:01.680 --> 0:52:04.600 that a big responsibility? And what she up to today? 0:52:06.640 --> 0:52:10.440 She's a singer, and she's a yoga practitioner, and she 0:52:11.719 --> 0:52:14.920 lives in Hawaii. She has a couple of kids, and 0:52:17.200 --> 0:52:25.600 she's studying medicine. She's taking courses in medicine, and she's 0:52:25.960 --> 0:52:29.560 become a quite serious about it. 0:52:31.560 --> 0:52:33.520 And what kind of relationship do you have with her? 0:52:35.480 --> 0:52:38.319 I don't know, you know, Bob, I don't know. I mean, 0:52:38.840 --> 0:52:42.080 these questions are I think I don't want to talk 0:52:42.120 --> 0:52:44.879 about my private life and my relationships. I don't ask 0:52:44.960 --> 0:52:45.680 you about yours. 0:52:47.440 --> 0:52:49.359 Well you could, but we don't have to go there. 0:52:49.800 --> 0:52:51.759 So was it about I mean, I'm very close. I 0:52:51.880 --> 0:52:53.960 love her very much. We're very close. She's a great, 0:52:54.040 --> 0:52:57.479 very talented girl. She's on this album, this tribute album. 0:52:57.560 --> 0:52:59.399 She sings a song. You can hear what she does. 0:53:00.040 --> 0:53:01.400 If you have an album, I don't know if you do. 0:53:02.239 --> 0:53:03.239 Somebody one too. 0:53:06.480 --> 0:53:10.719 It's on streaming services. So was it a big decision 0:53:10.920 --> 0:53:14.319 to move to Norway? Because Norway is not the I've 0:53:14.360 --> 0:53:15.840 been there a couple of times, but it's not the 0:53:15.920 --> 0:53:17.520 epicenter of the music business. 0:53:18.040 --> 0:53:19.800 Yeah, but say, I never really felt I was in 0:53:19.880 --> 0:53:26.600 the music business, so that that didn't even I was 0:53:26.680 --> 0:53:29.800 mainly in the writing business in my so I didn't 0:53:29.960 --> 0:53:33.640 think about that. And I wanted to go to Europe. 0:53:33.640 --> 0:53:36.080 I wanted to poke around and see things in Europe 0:53:36.120 --> 0:53:38.480 and spend some time in Europe. So Norway is a 0:53:38.520 --> 0:53:47.040 good place to, you know, to move around from any place, 0:53:47.040 --> 0:53:49.160 any place in Europe's could you have you just have 0:53:49.239 --> 0:53:51.960 a place. It's always a good place to leave and 0:53:52.040 --> 0:53:55.400 go to from Europe, you know, And I'd read a 0:53:55.440 --> 0:53:59.279 lot of I think a lot of the is my 0:53:59.640 --> 0:54:04.080 early inspirations of stuff were European. I think, you know 0:54:04.320 --> 0:54:08.680 Rambo Bolt of the poets I read and Russian writers 0:54:08.760 --> 0:54:12.120 I never got to rush with. I can't go, No, 0:54:14.239 --> 0:54:16.319 they just napped this guy from the Wall Street RAI 0:54:17.560 --> 0:54:23.960 very unsafe place to go. But yeah, so I got 0:54:24.000 --> 0:54:27.480 to see Europe and I got to see things that 0:54:27.560 --> 0:54:29.239 I wanted to see. But I mean New York was 0:54:29.280 --> 0:54:33.719 always you know, I think it's always in your soul. 0:54:33.800 --> 0:54:37.399 I mean you I was thinking about New York City, 0:54:37.440 --> 0:54:40.160 you know, the walking down the street, and it's the 0:54:40.239 --> 0:54:42.839 same as it was ten years ago, fifteen years ago, 0:54:42.960 --> 0:54:45.839 twenty years ago, thirty, The rhythm of the streets, the pace, 0:54:45.920 --> 0:54:49.239 the walking, I mean, it's it's just always the same. 0:54:50.040 --> 0:54:51.759 That's the thing about New York that I love. It 0:54:52.000 --> 0:54:55.080 just will never change. As long as there's street lights 0:54:56.160 --> 0:54:59.000 and as long as there's you know, traffic, the pace, 0:54:59.440 --> 0:55:05.800 the walking pace, it's like it epitomizes New York and 0:55:06.640 --> 0:55:09.239 that stays with me. And I guess, I guess you 0:55:09.320 --> 0:55:11.440 really are in New York. Or if you think about 0:55:11.520 --> 0:55:13.239 how the Yankees did me, you go to sleep at 0:55:13.320 --> 0:55:13.920 night in this chair? 0:55:16.000 --> 0:55:17.319 How often do you get to New York. 0:55:18.760 --> 0:55:22.080 I'm going on a couple of weeks. I'm recording, finishing 0:55:22.120 --> 0:55:28.040 an album that I started a few weeks. I'm doing 0:55:28.120 --> 0:55:31.520 some shows. I'm doing one out at mccabs. Maybe I'll 0:55:31.520 --> 0:55:33.960 see you there, right, And. 0:55:35.920 --> 0:55:39.800 How about financially? You move to you know, Oslo or 0:55:40.080 --> 0:55:43.520 wherever you were in Norway? How does it work financially? 0:55:43.760 --> 0:55:45.799 Do you have enough money from the music business where 0:55:45.800 --> 0:55:46.680 you're playing gigs? 0:55:48.719 --> 0:55:53.480 Well, I mean you get royalties, you play good. I 0:55:53.520 --> 0:55:56.359 mean the royalties aren't so great now and then it's 0:55:56.400 --> 0:56:00.680 so good. They kind of drastically fell. I mean, even 0:56:00.800 --> 0:56:05.040 with Bob Dylan singing my song on three records, it's 0:56:05.080 --> 0:56:12.279 still that he ain't making me any money. But yeah, 0:56:12.280 --> 0:56:15.640 I mean there's enough. You play, you get some royalties. 0:56:15.760 --> 0:56:21.120 You know, there's enough, and you can survive money. I've 0:56:21.200 --> 0:56:27.320 never I don't think about it too much. So what 0:56:27.520 --> 0:56:27.840 was it like? 0:56:27.960 --> 0:56:30.320 Living in Norway is supposed to living in the US. 0:56:31.760 --> 0:56:37.759 Safer. It's safer. They got to they have a healthcare sist. 0:56:41.280 --> 0:56:45.480 Nobody's walking around with guns. I mean, you know, man, 0:56:46.719 --> 0:56:49.360 in like fourteenth States, you can walk around with guns 0:56:49.440 --> 0:56:55.960 concealed or or not concealed without a permit handguns. How 0:56:56.000 --> 0:56:56.719 do you feel about that? 0:56:58.440 --> 0:57:02.359 I feel pretty bad. And uh, you know, the world 0:57:02.480 --> 0:57:06.080 situation in light of what's going on not only in 0:57:06.320 --> 0:57:10.480 Hungry but China and Israel, and then you have Trump, 0:57:10.600 --> 0:57:13.920 it's it's a scary time. Something I've never experienced in 0:57:14.000 --> 0:57:14.600 my lifetime. 0:57:16.600 --> 0:57:21.600 Yeah, it's it's the hour of the autocrats. It's uh, 0:57:24.040 --> 0:57:26.200 it's like something you didn't think, what ever happened? I mean, 0:57:28.040 --> 0:57:31.160 but it is happening. I mean, Holland has a right 0:57:31.200 --> 0:57:35.240 wing government. I mean it's not anything nobody's walking around 0:57:35.800 --> 0:57:39.160 doing saying it Kyle Hitler or anything like that. I mean, 0:57:39.200 --> 0:57:41.960 but it's a right wing government. It's very pro business. 0:57:43.160 --> 0:57:45.960 They're not really into helping anybody. They're into taking stuff 0:57:46.000 --> 0:57:51.400 away if they can. It's not it's not as bad 0:57:51.480 --> 0:57:56.840 as the States. I mean the States. The States are 0:57:56.840 --> 0:58:00.880 the paradigm of oh, you can't all, you don't get 0:58:01.000 --> 0:58:01.560 or can't cut. 0:58:02.280 --> 0:58:03.920 Can you amplify that a little bit. 0:58:04.400 --> 0:58:07.240 I'm saying the States they're they're the paradom. You know, 0:58:07.320 --> 0:58:12.960 They're the ones representing a country, social system, cultures of 0:58:14.960 --> 0:58:19.040 all the things you can't get and are not protected 0:58:19.240 --> 0:58:24.200 or not covered. I mean like health care, healthcare, education. 0:58:24.560 --> 0:58:28.720 I mean, it's a country that doesn't realize that healthcare 0:58:28.840 --> 0:58:32.480 and education are the main ingredients in the recipe for 0:58:32.560 --> 0:58:36.080 the future. For a country, you have to have healthy 0:58:36.560 --> 0:58:39.400 people who are educated and know things to carry out 0:58:39.480 --> 0:58:42.640 to carry the torch. But it's always been an elite, 0:58:43.560 --> 0:58:48.680 you know, with it's an elitist. I mean, it's not 0:58:48.840 --> 0:58:51.080 quite as elitist as England. You know, where the minute, 0:58:51.800 --> 0:58:53.720 the minute of the second you open your mouth, they 0:58:53.800 --> 0:58:55.880 know what class you're coming from. You know, just by 0:58:56.040 --> 0:58:59.480 the first word you say. They can pinpoint you. You know, 0:59:01.040 --> 0:59:02.920 just just by the sound of the words you use, 0:59:03.280 --> 0:59:05.680 like somebody from Brooklyn or somebody from Queens. There's somebody 0:59:05.760 --> 0:59:09.120 from you know, in England, there's there's a there's a 0:59:09.160 --> 0:59:15.960 whole hierarchy of language, of elocution. So I don't know, 0:59:16.720 --> 0:59:23.120 Norway's nice. I mean Europe's nice. It's a europe is people. 0:59:23.200 --> 0:59:26.160 They complain about the taxes, but people are driving tesla's 0:59:26.200 --> 0:59:28.120 around here. People are driving, I mean, you know, it's 0:59:30.080 --> 0:59:32.640 people are many people are doing fine, but of course 0:59:32.680 --> 0:59:35.760 there are some people who aren't. But that's true of everywhere. 0:59:37.600 --> 0:59:40.120 So you had a number of kids in Oslo. What 0:59:40.200 --> 0:59:40.800 are they up to? 0:59:43.320 --> 0:59:46.360 One's a singer, she's on the album named Signa. You 0:59:46.440 --> 0:59:54.680 can hear her on the Spotify. One's a painter. That 0:59:54.800 --> 0:59:57.200 there's a photographer, and the other one's a school teacher. 0:59:59.160 --> 0:59:59.960 And how old are they? 1:00:02.200 --> 1:00:08.440 Man? Now, I got to think they range from thirty 1:00:08.520 --> 1:00:11.800 five to an early late twenties. 1:00:13.720 --> 1:00:17.880 And so the mother of those children was an artist herself. Yeah, 1:00:18.640 --> 1:00:20.640 of some renowned correct. 1:00:20.720 --> 1:00:24.840 Yep, she is. She's she's a famous painter and artist 1:00:24.880 --> 1:00:30.440 in Norway and scount Avia, Sweden and Denmark somewhat too. 1:00:31.680 --> 1:00:34.320 And how did it end with her? Such you met 1:00:34.360 --> 1:00:36.520 a new woman and you're now living in the Netherlands. 1:00:37.800 --> 1:00:41.360 Read my book Bomb read my book. 1:00:49.520 --> 1:00:51.240 So how long you been living in the Netherlands. 1:00:52.800 --> 1:00:56.320 I've been here about twenty years. I mean I met 1:00:56.600 --> 1:01:01.240 I met my wife in Switzerland anger and she we 1:01:01.480 --> 1:01:05.080 joke and sometimes on stage. She's the one who said 1:01:05.080 --> 1:01:06.880 it took her five years to get her pH d. 1:01:08.240 --> 1:01:10.120 She says, well, what are you doing here in Switzerland? 1:01:10.120 --> 1:01:13.040 I said, well, I'm here to count my money. And 1:01:14.960 --> 1:01:17.000 she she tells people, well, and it took him a 1:01:17.120 --> 1:01:22.800 very long time because it was all in coins. It 1:01:23.000 --> 1:01:26.720 was all in coins. I'm writing, I'm writing a song 1:01:26.800 --> 1:01:30.360 about this now actually yeah. But and she's a musician 1:01:30.440 --> 1:01:33.360 and she sings, and she made an album herself called 1:01:33.440 --> 1:01:37.960 Fallen angel and we were in Riterda and we gave 1:01:37.960 --> 1:01:40.800 a copy to Bob to do them. Three months later 1:01:40.840 --> 1:01:43.560 an album came out called Fallen Angels. Now, I wonder 1:01:44.760 --> 1:01:46.200 if there's any connection. 1:01:48.240 --> 1:01:50.240 When it was the last time you connected with Bob. 1:01:51.800 --> 1:01:54.520 Well, I don't know. He he must like me, because 1:01:54.560 --> 1:01:56.600 you know, they were great giving me the you know, 1:01:56.720 --> 1:01:59.440 for the song for this tribute album, you know, give 1:01:59.480 --> 1:02:02.280 me all the I mean, they just they just handled 1:02:02.320 --> 1:02:06.000 it over on a silver platter, him and his manager. 1:02:06.840 --> 1:02:10.439 They were wonderful in terms of well, I was doing 1:02:10.480 --> 1:02:13.040 this album about there's I think there's a part of 1:02:13.120 --> 1:02:15.080 my life you don't know much about. But I made 1:02:15.080 --> 1:02:18.520 a few albums about writers about Heinriz Bull, the writer, 1:02:18.640 --> 1:02:23.280 the Nobil Prize German writer Lord Byron and Albert Camu 1:02:25.040 --> 1:02:29.800 three albums of writers. They were done in Germany and 1:02:31.640 --> 1:02:33.360 I was doing stuff on Camu and I know the 1:02:33.480 --> 1:02:35.840 Jefs sent stuff to doing about the stuff I was 1:02:35.920 --> 1:02:39.720 doing with that the you know, the lyrics. I didn't 1:02:39.720 --> 1:02:41.600 ask him to do it. I didn't even it wasn't 1:02:41.680 --> 1:02:44.360 intended for him, but I was thinking Jesus is going 1:02:44.400 --> 1:02:47.760 to show up in his next record or something. So 1:02:47.920 --> 1:02:49.400 I mean, I haven't but I haven't been. I have 1:02:49.680 --> 1:02:51.200 been in touch with it. I haven't been in touch 1:02:51.240 --> 1:02:56.920 with them in a while. Actually, well, I mean we went. Yeah, 1:02:56.960 --> 1:02:59.120 it's been a while. But he's great to talk to 1:02:59.200 --> 1:03:03.120 because he loves and he loves Literturney. He loves them. 1:03:06.240 --> 1:03:08.960 He's very curious. The good beauty of him is he's 1:03:09.080 --> 1:03:13.320 very curious about stuff. So I mean, I feel a 1:03:13.400 --> 1:03:14.200 kinship with him. 1:03:15.880 --> 1:03:19.640 When you were in Norway, you formed a group with 1:03:19.840 --> 1:03:22.920 Rick Danko of the band and a local musician. How 1:03:22.960 --> 1:03:23.920 did that come together? 1:03:26.840 --> 1:03:31.800 I saw Rick in New York and Rick said, hey, man, 1:03:32.160 --> 1:03:35.120 come and sing on the show. I sang on a show. 1:03:35.760 --> 1:03:38.200 It was with the Room full of Blues, him in 1:03:38.240 --> 1:03:40.520 the room full of blues. Yeah, of course, And I 1:03:40.600 --> 1:03:42.880 sang on a show and he said, hey, come up 1:03:42.920 --> 1:03:46.640 to Woodstock, Let's write some stuff, let's do something. And 1:03:46.840 --> 1:03:48.520 so I went up to Woodstock for a few days. 1:03:48.560 --> 1:03:50.720 I didn't even bring a spare pair of underwear. And 1:03:50.800 --> 1:03:55.600 I ended up there for two weeks, maybe more three weeks. 1:03:56.400 --> 1:04:00.560 I went, his wife got me underwear, got me shirts. 1:04:00.600 --> 1:04:02.200 I went and I bought a jacket. I mean, I 1:04:02.360 --> 1:04:05.000 just I was just going up for a couple of days. 1:04:06.040 --> 1:04:08.560 And then we started working together. And then I knew 1:04:08.560 --> 1:04:13.200 this guy Yonis fell in North Norway and I had 1:04:13.280 --> 1:04:18.520 done some over some this album stages that you know, dismissing. 1:04:19.000 --> 1:04:24.840 It was an album that got lost in Columbia and 1:04:26.600 --> 1:04:29.600 it got found. I told you it got found. I 1:04:29.640 --> 1:04:34.040 don't know or maybe you know this. And after they 1:04:34.120 --> 1:04:36.200 searched all over the place, that showed up on the 1:04:36.440 --> 1:04:42.920 floor of a tapefault. So we did some bonus tracks 1:04:42.960 --> 1:04:45.720 for the CD, and Rick arranged the gig for me, 1:04:46.120 --> 1:04:48.080 and Rick played on it, and Jonas came in from 1:04:48.120 --> 1:04:53.800 Norway and sang a little. Willie Nile did some singing. 1:04:56.080 --> 1:04:58.280 I think Garth Hudson was a jumped. Anyway, we went 1:04:58.360 --> 1:05:01.280 up to Woodstock and Rick arranged his gig. He got 1:05:01.320 --> 1:05:03.360 an amp and he got Mike's and stuff at this 1:05:03.480 --> 1:05:09.640 little place and what was it called the Woodstock the 1:05:09.760 --> 1:05:13.640 Cafe Tinker Street Cafe, very famous place. So he did 1:05:13.720 --> 1:05:16.720 this gig and Jonas had been drinking beer all day, 1:05:16.760 --> 1:05:22.320 sitting in the audience. I'm playing singing, Rick's playing bass, saying, 1:05:22.840 --> 1:05:26.160 and we did the song called Blue River, and Jonas 1:05:26.480 --> 1:05:28.800 just jumps up and starts singing a third part, and 1:05:28.880 --> 1:05:31.560 the whole place just exploded. It was like the Beatles 1:05:31.680 --> 1:05:34.160 or something. I don't know, it was like, and the 1:05:34.240 --> 1:05:39.720 whole roof just splintered. So we said, hey, wait a minute. 1:05:39.760 --> 1:05:42.280 Mick Ronson was there too. Mick was playing some slide 1:05:44.080 --> 1:05:49.760 and the whole place just everybody went whoa, all of us, 1:05:50.000 --> 1:05:53.080 including us. So we started this little group and made 1:05:53.080 --> 1:05:54.720 a couple of records and people loved it. 1:05:56.280 --> 1:05:58.320 Well, I think it's on the first record. You have 1:05:58.400 --> 1:06:02.840 a definitive version of that song Twilight from the band. 1:06:03.680 --> 1:06:04.680 Yeah, that's fixt time. 1:06:06.520 --> 1:06:12.520 So during this period when you leave the state you 1:06:12.680 --> 1:06:17.480 live in Norway, live in Netherlands, you're obviously searching, going 1:06:17.560 --> 1:06:22.600 to Europe, learning things, studying. Did you always view yourself 1:06:22.680 --> 1:06:25.400 as a musician, recording artist or did you think that 1:06:25.600 --> 1:06:28.480 part of your life was done and then you would return. 1:06:28.720 --> 1:06:29.880 What was going through your mind? 1:06:31.760 --> 1:06:33.720 You know, I got to tell you something, thinking is 1:06:33.760 --> 1:06:38.280 the Antichrist of art. I don't think about those things. 1:06:40.160 --> 1:06:43.840 Okay, there seems to be somewhat of a renaissance now 1:06:44.440 --> 1:06:47.440 you talk about the tribute to album. We have the 1:06:47.520 --> 1:06:52.080 news song danger Land. Is this conscious like, Okay, I 1:06:52.200 --> 1:06:54.680 want to get back in the game, get some attention. 1:06:56.360 --> 1:06:59.720 I don't think that way, Bun. Maybe I'll tell you. 1:07:00.320 --> 1:07:02.920 I'll give you a little clue. When it comes to writing, 1:07:04.360 --> 1:07:06.880 I don't even know. I don't even know what I'm doing. 1:07:06.920 --> 1:07:09.920 I mean, I think I'm probably like an idiots avants. 1:07:11.520 --> 1:07:14.680 The songs just basically visit me and I just sit 1:07:14.800 --> 1:07:16.720 with a pen and I just I'm a scenographer. I 1:07:16.880 --> 1:07:19.880 just take it down. They're already there. They just come 1:07:19.960 --> 1:07:22.400 through me and I write them down. I don't think 1:07:22.440 --> 1:07:25.240 about it. I don't plan it, I don't craft it out, 1:07:25.520 --> 1:07:29.480 I don't. It just goes through my fingers and I 1:07:29.560 --> 1:07:34.480 write it down. There's like visitations or something. They come 1:07:34.520 --> 1:07:38.240 from the air. And I think that's about pretty much 1:07:38.480 --> 1:07:42.160 sums up for everything that in terms of how I operate. 1:07:44.000 --> 1:07:46.200 How did the tribute album come together? 1:07:48.800 --> 1:07:50.840 This guy had this idea he wanted to do it, 1:07:51.040 --> 1:07:54.400 and so we contacted people and I had ideas about 1:07:54.440 --> 1:07:56.400 who could do what songs? Have you heard it? 1:07:57.560 --> 1:07:57.760 Yeah? 1:07:59.840 --> 1:08:03.760 I had an idea who could do what? And and 1:08:04.400 --> 1:08:08.400 there were people were very cooperative and nice and they 1:08:08.840 --> 1:08:11.240 recorded the songs and I think they I think I 1:08:11.360 --> 1:08:13.440 did a pretty good job eight with an R and 1:08:13.560 --> 1:08:17.560 the thing because they liked what they they wanted to 1:08:17.600 --> 1:08:21.759 do the songs. We had a couple, you know something 1:08:21.840 --> 1:08:24.479 you know I was hoping to get, you know, we 1:08:24.560 --> 1:08:28.719 were thinking about Jackson Brown and UH and James Taylor 1:08:28.760 --> 1:08:30.439 on a song that James and I had worked on 1:08:30.600 --> 1:08:34.640 once years ago and this was before the pandemic and 1:08:34.680 --> 1:08:37.200 then he was going on tour this kind of thing 1:08:38.120 --> 1:08:42.320 and Jackson, I don't know, it just got nothing. Ever 1:08:42.400 --> 1:08:44.400 came to marry Go Shay was going to do something. 1:08:44.560 --> 1:08:47.600 You know, she got money for the record and she 1:08:47.840 --> 1:08:50.200 had this song that she wanted that song, another song, 1:08:50.479 --> 1:08:53.559 but she ended up not doing it. So I mean, 1:08:53.920 --> 1:08:56.320 maybe there's some kind of like you got to have 1:08:56.400 --> 1:08:58.320 a certain star pouper, Maybe you have to be of 1:08:58.439 --> 1:09:03.360 a certain kind of echelons thing to say, Oh, Paul mccartti, 1:09:03.400 --> 1:09:06.120 you be on my record, and like if you've had 1:09:06.200 --> 1:09:09.720 three number one hits, they might say yes. So you know, 1:09:09.880 --> 1:09:12.800 there might be a subtext or a hidden story of 1:09:12.880 --> 1:09:16.200 this thing. You know what I'm saying to get people 1:09:16.360 --> 1:09:18.719 to be to do your songs. 1:09:20.160 --> 1:09:22.320 Oh, it's a whole political thing. And I think you 1:09:22.400 --> 1:09:23.840 have a pretty good angle on it. 1:09:24.880 --> 1:09:28.000 I mean I wrote like Graham, I wrote Graham on 1:09:28.240 --> 1:09:29.280 Nash and he just said no. 1:09:31.320 --> 1:09:33.439 Well, at least, you know, a lot of times, a 1:09:33.479 --> 1:09:35.880 lot of times you can't even hear from people. You know, 1:09:35.960 --> 1:09:38.080 they figure if you don't hear from them, that means no. 1:09:38.600 --> 1:09:40.760 Well, you know whatever. But I mean the people who 1:09:40.800 --> 1:09:42.679 did it, I think they put their hearts and souls 1:09:42.720 --> 1:09:45.280 onto it, and I think they did a beautiful, beautiful 1:09:45.360 --> 1:09:48.479 and Bob was Dylan was the first to get on board. 1:09:50.720 --> 1:09:57.240 So Joni Mitchell credits you with learning about open tunings. 1:09:57.840 --> 1:10:00.599 How did you start experimenting with open tunings? 1:10:01.760 --> 1:10:06.560 You're in these blues guys down in the village, you know, 1:10:06.680 --> 1:10:09.599 like like like Fred McDowell, he's he plays slide guitar. 1:10:10.800 --> 1:10:15.160 Booka White does tunings, you know. I you know, I 1:10:15.240 --> 1:10:19.800 got interested in tunings. And so I was at her 1:10:19.840 --> 1:10:23.040 house in Detroit, she was living there with her husband, 1:10:23.120 --> 1:10:27.880 and she did just fed up with doing normal to me, 1:10:28.080 --> 1:10:31.439 she hated it playing c's and acts and she's And 1:10:31.520 --> 1:10:36.559 I understood it because it's you know, tunings are more trancy, 1:10:36.680 --> 1:10:41.639 they're more there's a fluidity to them. You know, it's 1:10:42.920 --> 1:10:50.599 more shall I say, more Arabic, because it's more, it's 1:10:50.720 --> 1:10:55.439 less defined in terms of like chords using straight chords. 1:10:56.479 --> 1:11:00.320 And she so taught her I think etuning E or 1:11:00.400 --> 1:11:05.760 T and she tuning and she loved it. And I 1:11:05.840 --> 1:11:08.200 think she told me she went on. She's probably made. 1:11:08.720 --> 1:11:11.720 She made about one hundred and two tunings. One night 1:11:11.800 --> 1:11:14.760 on the phone. She played me was the place she 1:11:14.840 --> 1:11:17.400 played me about fourteen tunings she did. I mean I 1:11:17.520 --> 1:11:20.439 was just sitting and she even played the tunings of 1:11:20.520 --> 1:11:26.560 Keith Richards Uses. It probably got from her, you know, 1:11:26.840 --> 1:11:29.880 she got you got it from her, So she did. 1:11:30.400 --> 1:11:32.320 It was phenomenal what she did. She took off. It 1:11:32.439 --> 1:11:34.280 took off. And I mean if she hadn't learned it 1:11:34.320 --> 1:11:36.120 from me, she would have learned it from somebody else. 1:11:36.840 --> 1:11:41.120 But I think maybe I saved her a little time now. 1:11:41.200 --> 1:11:44.160 Needless to say, Joni Mitchell, not only being a great artist, 1:11:44.200 --> 1:11:48.439 has gotten a great amount of acclaim anybody from that era, 1:11:49.200 --> 1:11:52.880 who you feel needs recognition or music needs to be 1:11:53.000 --> 1:11:56.200 heard today, who's fallen off the radar to a degree 1:11:56.680 --> 1:11:59.280 besides myself, besides yourself. 1:11:59.560 --> 1:12:09.040 Beside as myself, Well, I mean, you know, we're in 1:12:09.120 --> 1:12:10.960 the danger zone now. I mean a lot of people 1:12:11.000 --> 1:12:17.920 aren't alonger with us. I'm trying to think, like, like, 1:12:18.120 --> 1:12:20.280 what do you can be? Could you make it? Could 1:12:20.320 --> 1:12:21.880 you be a little clearer about. 1:12:21.640 --> 1:12:24.560 That when you say, well, you know Tim hard in 1:12:24.640 --> 1:12:27.080 a couple of his songs, if I were a carpenter, 1:12:27.240 --> 1:12:30.080 a couple of things are remembered, but he's fading into 1:12:30.439 --> 1:12:34.920 UH history. You know, you talk about Mississippi, Fred McDowell. 1:12:35.000 --> 1:12:37.720 These are people if you live through the era, you're 1:12:37.760 --> 1:12:41.280 aware of, but younger generations are not aware of a 1:12:41.360 --> 1:12:43.960 lot of these UH performers. 1:12:44.920 --> 1:12:46.880 Well, they all had their own music, you know. They 1:12:46.920 --> 1:12:49.760 are things that speak to them that you know, that 1:12:50.000 --> 1:12:53.200 express what they're feeling. And that's just that's how things 1:12:53.280 --> 1:12:59.400 have been since you know Mozart before However, that said Mozart, 1:13:00.479 --> 1:13:02.720 some of these things that leak through the ages, you know, 1:13:02.880 --> 1:13:06.439 like especially in the classical world and to some extent 1:13:06.520 --> 1:13:08.559 in the jazz world. I've been listening to a lot 1:13:08.640 --> 1:13:12.720 to Oscar Peterson lately, you know, and uh Canadian guy 1:13:12.800 --> 1:13:18.160 from Montreal phenomenal. But I'm I think, you know, I 1:13:18.400 --> 1:13:22.200 like people like Fred Neil. He's probably the greatest white 1:13:22.280 --> 1:13:26.200 singer there ever was, you know, outside of like George 1:13:26.280 --> 1:13:30.880 Jones and like Sinatra and Mat Papado to or somebody 1:13:31.000 --> 1:13:35.760 like that, those people, you know, but bred Neil was great. 1:13:35.920 --> 1:13:38.759 I think Tim Harden is great. He wrote these beautiful songs. 1:13:42.479 --> 1:13:48.240 All the blues people, you know, I think they're always pertinent, 1:13:48.280 --> 1:13:52.519 They're always significant, and they'll never go away. And like 1:13:52.600 --> 1:13:54.840 the jazz people, I mean, you know, Miles will always 1:13:54.880 --> 1:13:57.360 be with us, called Trane, you know, all these people 1:13:57.439 --> 1:14:00.479 will be with us. So I mean I'm a funny 1:14:00.479 --> 1:14:02.679 guy to ask, because I've listened to all this old 1:14:03.080 --> 1:14:06.760 you know. I listened to Fat Swaller, and I listened 1:14:06.800 --> 1:14:09.680 to you know, real Father Heinz, And I mean I 1:14:09.840 --> 1:14:12.960 listened to all this stuff all the time. So I mean, 1:14:13.040 --> 1:14:15.759 I'm not of this world. I'm not of this time zone. 1:14:17.200 --> 1:14:19.000 But I mean there's a lot of people that you know, 1:14:19.400 --> 1:14:21.599 probably deserve to be heard more. 1:14:21.520 --> 1:14:26.479 Of, you know, And Thirsty Boots ended up being covered 1:14:26.640 --> 1:14:31.320 by many artists Bob Dylan, Judy Collins, etcetera. Was that 1:14:31.479 --> 1:14:34.559 just serendipitous that all of a sudden you found out 1:14:34.560 --> 1:14:36.880 they were recording your songs? Or do you know how 1:14:36.960 --> 1:14:37.559 they ended. 1:14:37.520 --> 1:14:40.560 Up doing it? No idea, They just did it. I 1:14:40.800 --> 1:14:43.960 had no idea one day you turned on the radio 1:14:44.120 --> 1:14:48.879 or something. There it is you never know in advance. 1:14:50.720 --> 1:14:53.200 And the thing with the Dylan thing was very strange. 1:14:53.240 --> 1:14:57.559 I mean, al Cooper kind of inted at something. He said, yeah, 1:14:57.640 --> 1:14:59.519 I think he did this. Somebody thought it sounded too 1:14:59.600 --> 1:15:02.960 much like you, al Cooper. You told me this once 1:15:03.560 --> 1:15:06.760 years ago. I never gave it any thought. But then 1:15:06.840 --> 1:15:10.360 he recorded like for It was on a one version, 1:15:10.439 --> 1:15:15.679 a record day version, one was on another portraits, another 1:15:16.240 --> 1:15:20.720 support one, an album, another version. And then when I 1:15:20.800 --> 1:15:23.599 talked to Jeff Rosen and as manager, he came up 1:15:23.640 --> 1:15:28.160 with another version that was completely beautiful, that was just 1:15:28.280 --> 1:15:31.840 sitting there and gave it to us and we put 1:15:31.920 --> 1:15:33.920 Tony Garnier out of you know, the basse player from 1:15:33.920 --> 1:15:38.720 his band, Tony, and it came out beautifully. Everybody loved it. 1:15:40.240 --> 1:15:42.280 But I don't you don't know. I mean, it's Judy. 1:15:42.360 --> 1:15:44.840 I didn't know about her I didn't know. Sometimes I 1:15:44.960 --> 1:15:47.640 hear about a recording I never knew about from Australia, 1:15:47.880 --> 1:15:51.760 from like Fancois Hardie. I didn't know she had recorded Violenceadahn. 1:15:53.280 --> 1:15:55.479 I mean, yeah, I know. 1:15:55.600 --> 1:15:57.400 You think I live in an igloo or something in 1:15:57.479 --> 1:16:00.080 a bubble, but probably I do, But I don't. I 1:16:00.120 --> 1:16:03.520 don't really, I'm not always aware of the recordings. 1:16:05.720 --> 1:16:11.840 Now, you mentioned we're discussing that people who need more 1:16:11.880 --> 1:16:16.880 attention didn't get it. You mentioned yourself. So how do 1:16:17.000 --> 1:16:20.040 you feel about your place in the firmament in history 1:16:20.880 --> 1:16:24.440 and to what degree do you want more recognition? 1:16:25.840 --> 1:16:29.479 Well, I think I never had a hit record, you know. 1:16:30.400 --> 1:16:32.240 So I think if I'll tell you one thing, if 1:16:32.240 --> 1:16:36.519 you have a hit record, you can play state fairs. Now, 1:16:36.560 --> 1:16:40.559 you can play corporate parties. Maybe, I mean you can 1:16:40.640 --> 1:16:46.880 play you know, I mean having you only need one 1:16:46.960 --> 1:16:49.160 hit record, and I mean you can. And if people 1:16:49.160 --> 1:16:51.280 will follow they like that, they might if they look 1:16:51.280 --> 1:16:53.400 into your work, they might like other parts of your work, 1:16:53.479 --> 1:16:56.479 like in the case of Lou Read for example. You know, 1:16:57.680 --> 1:17:00.240 but with not having a hit it's kind of it's 1:17:00.320 --> 1:17:03.400 kind of heavy. It's like heavy lifting, you know, to 1:17:03.520 --> 1:17:07.000 try to get your stuff out there, and I accept that. 1:17:07.080 --> 1:17:10.720 I realized it's true. You can't do what can you do? 1:17:12.160 --> 1:17:15.200 So or even if you have somebody else get a 1:17:15.280 --> 1:17:20.240 hit of your song, that can help too. And I 1:17:20.320 --> 1:17:22.560 think I think the Blues Project had a hit on 1:17:23.000 --> 1:17:24.519 Violence of John. I think it was a top ten 1:17:24.680 --> 1:17:27.640 hit something like that. But I mean a little bit 1:17:27.720 --> 1:17:31.439 of it rubs off I was supposed. But so you 1:17:31.640 --> 1:17:33.160 just go and carry on and you do what you 1:17:33.800 --> 1:17:36.160 what you got into doing it for, and that's the writing. 1:17:36.320 --> 1:17:40.120 And you just soldier on and you know whatever may 1:17:40.160 --> 1:17:43.160 be will be, because I mean, I'm not going to 1:17:43.200 --> 1:17:45.120 sit down and try to write a pop hit. I 1:17:45.160 --> 1:17:46.880 would not. I never know how to do it in 1:17:46.960 --> 1:17:47.599 the first place. 1:17:49.040 --> 1:17:51.479 Did you ever get any pressure from Clive Davis to 1:17:51.600 --> 1:17:52.360 try to write a hit? 1:17:52.960 --> 1:17:57.160 No, Clive never said a word. You just let me 1:17:57.240 --> 1:18:00.040 do what I wanted to do. It was great. We 1:18:00.120 --> 1:18:02.320 were surprised. We invited me. We flew over for his 1:18:02.439 --> 1:18:07.920 birthday party. He turned ninety years old. He had this 1:18:08.040 --> 1:18:12.200 big party at Chipriani's in New York and Wall Street. 1:18:13.760 --> 1:18:17.240 So we ang and I fly over and we're saying, 1:18:17.240 --> 1:18:19.439 all right, we'll probably end up under a balcony or 1:18:19.520 --> 1:18:23.120 something or by a pillar. So we walk in and 1:18:24.320 --> 1:18:28.920 I'm not performing or anything. And we walk into the 1:18:29.040 --> 1:18:31.800 place and somebody comes with a little name tag, and 1:18:31.920 --> 1:18:34.160 we were at the door. They wouldn't let Stevie vanzanin. 1:18:34.680 --> 1:18:37.280 They wouldn't let him into the party because he didn't 1:18:37.280 --> 1:18:40.599 have any ID, and I mean, and so I'm standing 1:18:40.640 --> 1:18:42.840 there not even knowing him, arguing with the guy at 1:18:42.840 --> 1:18:45.240 the door, saying, wait a minute, he's you know, such 1:18:45.280 --> 1:18:47.439 and such and so and so, and they finally let 1:18:47.520 --> 1:18:52.799 him in, so we got him. But so anyway, somebody 1:18:52.880 --> 1:18:55.800 comes with a name tag in a suit and we 1:18:56.080 --> 1:18:59.680 rushes through this huge place with all these round tables. Man, 1:19:00.800 --> 1:19:03.000 and we go right to the front of the stage. 1:19:04.040 --> 1:19:07.679 Put us down, and we're sitting down, and like Judy 1:19:07.800 --> 1:19:11.679 Cowns is on the right, Alicia Keys is on the left, 1:19:12.840 --> 1:19:16.360 Patti Smith is in front, art Guardfuncle and Robert de Niro. 1:19:17.200 --> 1:19:19.840 This is the table we're sitting at. And we're thinking, 1:19:20.120 --> 1:19:21.960 oh shit, man, we're going to probably end up, you know, 1:19:22.439 --> 1:19:25.400 eating peanut but or sandwiches or something by some pillar. 1:19:25.520 --> 1:19:28.120 But how nice it is of Clive to advise us. 1:19:28.920 --> 1:19:30.599 They Clive, he put us right. You know, with all 1:19:30.640 --> 1:19:34.200 these beautiful people. John Warwick is over the next table, 1:19:34.439 --> 1:19:37.120 and Barry Manilow and you know the people that he 1:19:37.240 --> 1:19:39.680 worked with. So it was a beautiful night. It was 1:19:39.800 --> 1:19:42.080 very a wonderful thing, and I talked to Clive a 1:19:42.120 --> 1:19:44.040 little bit. There was a great wonderful thing to do. 1:19:45.280 --> 1:19:49.080 But you never know, I mean, how you stand in 1:19:49.200 --> 1:19:52.680 this world where how your music affects people or what 1:19:52.760 --> 1:19:55.639 it does to people. You basically don't have a clue. 1:19:55.720 --> 1:19:58.360 I mean, they're like orphans that they go off on 1:19:58.439 --> 1:20:00.080 their own and they live in their own lives. You 1:20:00.120 --> 1:20:02.479 don't know what they will mean or what they do 1:20:02.640 --> 1:20:04.560 mean to other people. You have, no, you don't have 1:20:04.640 --> 1:20:07.080 a clue. You go, You're in your world and you 1:20:07.280 --> 1:20:09.080 keep doing and doing more of what you did. 1:20:11.840 --> 1:20:14.080 And how much are you touring these days? 1:20:15.960 --> 1:20:18.600 Well, I would like to tour more, I think, but 1:20:18.840 --> 1:20:22.840 I'm touring not too much, very little. I'm doing some 1:20:23.000 --> 1:20:27.200 dates in the spring. We're doing the Winery, We're doing 1:20:27.240 --> 1:20:33.000 the Cage, doing a show in Arizona, Musical Instrument Museum, 1:20:33.960 --> 1:20:40.519 Strange Eclectic dates, a date in Boston. Yeah, some are 1:20:40.560 --> 1:20:44.000 sprinkling on the East coast. Not too much though, but 1:20:44.240 --> 1:20:48.360 ten dates. I ain't going to get rich during concerts. 1:20:55.760 --> 1:20:59.839 How do you feel about so many of your contemporaries passing? 1:21:02.120 --> 1:21:08.439 Where do you begin? I mean, well, not too good. 1:21:08.840 --> 1:21:15.320 I mean I feel I mean people I knew, like 1:21:15.680 --> 1:21:17.639 like Lou Reid was my best friend in New York. 1:21:18.479 --> 1:21:23.240 Laurie kept Laurie is you know, she says, uh, you know, 1:21:23.320 --> 1:21:26.320 it's it's okay to feel said, but don't be sad. 1:21:26.800 --> 1:21:29.600 You know she's a She's a Buddhist too. I mean, 1:21:29.640 --> 1:21:32.479 he was a tight she guy. But I mean Lou, 1:21:32.640 --> 1:21:35.120 I was very close to Townsman sand we wrote together. 1:21:35.240 --> 1:21:39.519 And I was close to you know, Rick Tanko, we 1:21:39.640 --> 1:21:41.560 worked together. I mean, these are people that meant a 1:21:41.640 --> 1:21:45.920 lot to me, and they knew my kids, so as 1:21:48.520 --> 1:21:50.800 you know, and the list goes on. So you do 1:21:50.960 --> 1:21:53.800 feel kind of in one way, you feel kind of isolated. 1:21:53.880 --> 1:21:57.880 You feel you feel kind of left. I mean, I 1:21:57.960 --> 1:22:00.680 wonder where you begin to realize that the question is 1:22:00.760 --> 1:22:02.640 and why are they? Did they did they die? Or 1:22:02.680 --> 1:22:05.120 why did they pass into the other world or the 1:22:05.160 --> 1:22:08.840 other side. The real question is why are we still here? 1:22:09.400 --> 1:22:13.880 Then you got to grapple with that. I and I 1:22:13.960 --> 1:22:15.880 think sometimes you walk around and think, well, man, you 1:22:15.960 --> 1:22:19.559 know you feel okay, you might be the eyes for Towns. 1:22:19.640 --> 1:22:21.479 You might be the eyes for Lou, or you might 1:22:21.560 --> 1:22:23.519 be the eyes for these or Phi looks. You know, 1:22:24.040 --> 1:22:26.880 he was my brother, Fred Neil. He should be very 1:22:26.920 --> 1:22:31.519 close people to me, and so you feel why am I? 1:22:31.680 --> 1:22:34.240 You know, you feel kind of like the last man standing. 1:22:34.680 --> 1:22:38.720 And Joni, who's the godmother my daughter. We almost lost her. 1:22:38.880 --> 1:22:40.760 She fell on the floor, you know, was on the 1:22:40.840 --> 1:22:44.400 floor for two days. Nobody found her, so you know, 1:22:44.600 --> 1:22:47.040 and she'll probably be at the gig in La because 1:22:47.040 --> 1:22:49.800 she always comes to the show. But I don't know. 1:22:49.920 --> 1:22:57.920 It's a strange, strange thing to see these beautiful, wonderful, talented, funny, 1:22:59.320 --> 1:23:05.120 great people who you were very close to. But you 1:23:05.160 --> 1:23:08.280 know they live on within you too, They live on inside. 1:23:08.360 --> 1:23:11.080 Sometimes when I'm writing, a line will come up or something, 1:23:11.240 --> 1:23:13.439 Oh yeah, towns or run don't remind me of Lou 1:23:13.600 --> 1:23:17.280 or something remind me of speaking of Lou. I had 1:23:17.280 --> 1:23:19.360 the impression you were the Lou read of interviewers. 1:23:21.600 --> 1:23:24.840 Okay, I'm pretty familiar with Lou Reed's career. I didn't 1:23:24.920 --> 1:23:28.240 know him personally. I've heard from LORII. But what exactly 1:23:28.360 --> 1:23:29.040 does that mean? 1:23:29.560 --> 1:23:31.600 Well, Taylor Swift called me and she told me that 1:23:31.720 --> 1:23:34.920 you were like the lou Read of interviewers. No, I'm kidding. 1:23:35.080 --> 1:23:38.040 Well that's obviously a joke. But okay, so. 1:23:38.120 --> 1:23:40.560 Anyway, but but I mean these people, you know, you 1:23:41.040 --> 1:23:42.800 they you know, you just carry them with you. They're 1:23:42.840 --> 1:23:48.040 inside you know. But it is a bizarre thing. I'm 1:23:48.040 --> 1:23:50.479 trying to think that there's there's many more too, the 1:23:50.600 --> 1:23:56.360 ones whose names you don't know. You know Debbie also, 1:23:56.479 --> 1:23:59.320 we lost her. Debbie figured very big in my life. 1:23:59.400 --> 1:24:02.600 We worked a lot on the music and she's in 1:24:02.680 --> 1:24:05.400 the film. She's She does a great She narrates a 1:24:05.479 --> 1:24:07.840 lot of the film. Do what do we do? 1:24:07.880 --> 1:24:09.240 You come to play your own death? 1:24:11.000 --> 1:24:13.800 Well, I don't think. I don't. I don't think about 1:24:13.840 --> 1:24:17.240 it that much and I don't really it doesn't really, 1:24:17.760 --> 1:24:23.640 it doesn't really bother me. I H. I think you 1:24:23.760 --> 1:24:25.519 reach a certain point when you know you're in the 1:24:25.600 --> 1:24:29.280 danger zone with you know, with things like hell, things 1:24:29.320 --> 1:24:37.519 that are going on. Fortunately I'm okay. But I think 1:24:37.600 --> 1:24:40.080 you think about it and you know, you get your head, 1:24:40.200 --> 1:24:42.160 you get yourself prepared for it. You have to be 1:24:42.280 --> 1:24:46.560 a little you can't get attached to it though, But 1:24:46.720 --> 1:24:48.639 you have to see it's a thing that's it's gonna 1:24:49.000 --> 1:24:52.200 it's gonna happen. It's gonna come like I just turned 1:24:52.240 --> 1:24:54.320 the big eight. Oh you know that was a number 1:24:54.400 --> 1:24:57.200 for years. Oh yeah, people turn eighty you know her 1:24:57.320 --> 1:25:02.560 people people you know, people get pensions or people. I 1:25:02.600 --> 1:25:04.880 don't get a pension, but I mean, and then one 1:25:04.960 --> 1:25:09.880 day you are eighty years old, that number has visited you. 1:25:10.800 --> 1:25:17.840 You know, is there anything you want to accomplish or 1:25:18.040 --> 1:25:20.400 do before you leave this mortal claw? 1:25:21.840 --> 1:25:24.600 Well, I'm working. You know, I'm a great believer that 1:25:24.680 --> 1:25:27.000 you don't really leave the You don't leave the planet 1:25:28.479 --> 1:25:31.560 until you finish what you were intended or what you 1:25:31.640 --> 1:25:34.439 were meant to do. Until you've finished your work. And 1:25:34.520 --> 1:25:37.280 when you've finished those things, then you're ready to let 1:25:37.400 --> 1:25:40.559 go with a body. You know. I'm working. I've got 1:25:40.600 --> 1:25:42.760 an episodic novel I've been working on for years. I 1:25:42.800 --> 1:25:45.439 would love to see it, see that into the light 1:25:45.520 --> 1:25:50.160 of day. And I've got this memoir thing I've been 1:25:50.200 --> 1:25:52.080 working on. I would love it to be able to 1:25:52.160 --> 1:25:54.560 walk into the sun. But it all takes time. And 1:25:54.600 --> 1:25:56.680 I'm working on this album now that I started and 1:25:57.840 --> 1:26:00.840 I got to finish their stamp thing. It's like it's 1:26:00.920 --> 1:26:03.679 like the cross on my back. I got this burden 1:26:03.680 --> 1:26:07.040 I've got to carry to Calvary or something. So we're 1:26:07.040 --> 1:26:08.800 going to try to finish. It's the spring and have 1:26:08.920 --> 1:26:11.920 it out in the fall. To I thing called Dance 1:26:11.960 --> 1:26:17.439 and Love and Death and another another writer toose Leonard Cohen. 1:26:17.479 --> 1:26:21.160 You know Leonard left so these I didn't know Crosby 1:26:21.280 --> 1:26:24.280 that well, I mean I know, but you know these. 1:26:24.920 --> 1:26:27.320 This is what happens. I mean, you reach this danger 1:26:27.400 --> 1:26:29.960 zone and this is but a lot of people they 1:26:30.200 --> 1:26:32.920 left way before their time, you know, way before they 1:26:33.880 --> 1:26:36.360 There's a new book Lou Reed put out. You should 1:26:36.400 --> 1:26:38.599 get it. It's called The Art of the Straight Line. 1:26:38.600 --> 1:26:40.760 It's really beautiful. I'm reading it now. LORI put it 1:26:40.840 --> 1:26:44.439 together and it's really a sensational it's a really a 1:26:44.520 --> 1:26:49.000 great book. Hel Willners in it, and uh and Ramanta 1:26:51.720 --> 1:26:56.400 Ramuncho Mata from in Paris season. He does a great 1:26:56.520 --> 1:27:02.640 chapter and now it's wonderful to read. It's very refreshing 1:27:02.640 --> 1:27:05.280 and lu jumps off the page. He's right comes alive. 1:27:06.040 --> 1:27:06.760 Have you heard about it? 1:27:07.680 --> 1:27:12.559 Of course? So what's an average day like for you. 1:27:13.720 --> 1:27:15.800 Well, I get up and I walk the dog and 1:27:15.880 --> 1:27:16.679 I start writing. 1:27:18.680 --> 1:27:20.720 So you're working as hard as you ever were. 1:27:21.320 --> 1:27:24.360 Yeah, I've writ a lot of new songs for this record. 1:27:25.360 --> 1:27:28.160 Plus I'm doing these video I'm doing these projects, these 1:27:28.920 --> 1:27:31.559 sort of topical songs that nobody wants to look at 1:27:31.600 --> 1:27:35.560 her face or even think about. But I'm going to 1:27:35.600 --> 1:27:39.800 do it anyway because in the end they're going to 1:27:39.880 --> 1:27:40.799 see that it mattered. 1:27:42.760 --> 1:27:47.920 Why do you think doing topical song sixty years ago 1:27:49.040 --> 1:27:54.599 was at the forefront of artistic culture and now it's 1:27:54.960 --> 1:27:55.959 way in the background. 1:27:56.520 --> 1:27:59.200 Well, topical songs. See these things? I don't know. I 1:27:59.320 --> 1:28:01.439 sent you the rain falls down in Amsterdam, did you 1:28:01.520 --> 1:28:02.360 hear it? Yeah? 1:28:02.479 --> 1:28:03.960 Yeah, yeah, so. 1:28:04.560 --> 1:28:07.400 About fascism and Nazis and how these things. This was 1:28:07.479 --> 1:28:11.919 I wrote right after the wall fell down. They they're precient. 1:28:12.040 --> 1:28:15.479 They're like, they're not the protest songs. They're not really 1:28:15.600 --> 1:28:19.120 topical songs. We're using that as a term of convenience, 1:28:19.200 --> 1:28:21.280 but I mean it's these are these are more like 1:28:21.360 --> 1:28:23.640 I say, like from a medical journalistic if you go 1:28:23.720 --> 1:28:26.200 to the Meal clinic site, you know that you read 1:28:26.240 --> 1:28:29.760 a description of a disease, you get a disease say 1:28:29.800 --> 1:28:34.439 about mass shootings. It's not going to change. It's never 1:28:34.560 --> 1:28:37.479 going to change. It's just going to get worse if 1:28:37.560 --> 1:28:40.160 the bodies are going to pile up. And this thing, 1:28:40.320 --> 1:28:43.720 this song, this lays it all out. And it's from 1:28:43.760 --> 1:28:46.639 the point of view of a shooter, which is unique. 1:28:48.640 --> 1:28:51.120 It's not like singing about something or what's a bad 1:28:51.240 --> 1:28:53.760 thing to do? Shoot, you know. This is actually about 1:28:53.800 --> 1:28:57.000 a kid who goes and shoots some shoots up his class, 1:28:57.320 --> 1:29:01.040 you know. So, I mean it's these perspectives are very interesting, 1:29:01.120 --> 1:29:09.000 you know. It's almost cinemagraph h h. Cinemagraphic, and they 1:29:09.040 --> 1:29:13.000 approach in some ways, but it's not descriptive. It's actually active. 1:29:14.000 --> 1:29:19.960 So it's I think they're important, these things, these songs, 1:29:20.920 --> 1:29:24.080 and nobody's doing it. No artists are reacting. They just 1:29:24.240 --> 1:29:28.920 it's just newspapers and television. That's it. And it's vers 1:29:28.960 --> 1:29:31.400 so sorry, and like at the end of danger landswers, 1:29:31.400 --> 1:29:35.080 you know, prayers and our prayers are with you, you know, 1:29:35.320 --> 1:29:37.960 our thoughts and prayer prayers are cheap in danger Land, 1:29:38.000 --> 1:29:40.680 you know, and you always hear it the same old 1:29:40.760 --> 1:29:45.840 ship over and over again, and it's like, come on, 1:29:46.000 --> 1:29:50.000 a government is supposed to a government is supposed to protect, 1:29:50.040 --> 1:29:55.599 you know, keep your keep its people safe. All right, 1:29:55.680 --> 1:29:58.080 there's criminals. They're gonna go kill them. You can't stop 1:29:58.160 --> 1:30:01.080 criminals they go, But you just take their toys away. 1:30:01.439 --> 1:30:03.800 They can't have these toys. They can be criminal all 1:30:03.840 --> 1:30:07.040 they want, but don't let them have these these weapons. 1:30:08.160 --> 1:30:11.040 Read the Washington Post. Read what a read? What an eight? 1:30:11.680 --> 1:30:15.160 Yeah yeah, I saw that post yesterday. 1:30:15.400 --> 1:30:16.960 See what a book? See what a bully can do 1:30:17.080 --> 1:30:19.280 to a kid? You know? I mean, so these this 1:30:19.439 --> 1:30:24.160 is this, these songs are important, but nobody knows it yet. 1:30:24.240 --> 1:30:24.800 Nobody knows. 1:30:26.840 --> 1:30:29.639 Well, we're getting the word out here. But also, why 1:30:29.720 --> 1:30:31.839 do you believe there can be no change? 1:30:33.280 --> 1:30:39.720 Well, I read the Times. I must be a there 1:30:39.840 --> 1:30:45.840 must be some kind of newsprint massacres because I get 1:30:45.840 --> 1:30:48.200 the New York Times delivered to my door every day 1:30:48.240 --> 1:30:51.760 in the Netherlands, and I read the article about that. 1:30:52.040 --> 1:30:55.880 Do you get the New York Times? Absolutely well, I'll 1:30:56.000 --> 1:30:58.000 send you a link to this thing if you didn't 1:30:58.120 --> 1:31:01.160 catch it. About to republic kends, who are going to 1:31:01.200 --> 1:31:04.559 empower the ones that can make or break anything? They 1:31:04.680 --> 1:31:07.439 say the same old talking points, nothing can be done. 1:31:07.479 --> 1:31:10.519 It's the most extraordinary comments they made about it. 1:31:10.760 --> 1:31:11.679 I read the article. 1:31:11.760 --> 1:31:14.880 Yeah, so you're asking me, can things change? What do 1:31:14.960 --> 1:31:16.160 you think when you read that? 1:31:17.520 --> 1:31:24.320 Well, I view it. Listen, public protests driven by younger 1:31:24.439 --> 1:31:30.400 people helped stop the Vietnam War, and I certainly remember that. 1:31:31.520 --> 1:31:37.479 I thought that when the Supreme Court struck down abortion rights, 1:31:38.479 --> 1:31:41.600 people would be rioting in the streets. They were not. 1:31:42.640 --> 1:31:46.240 So I think back to what was happening in Vietnam. Well, 1:31:46.320 --> 1:31:49.920 half the public was affected because of the draft. So 1:31:50.120 --> 1:31:54.400 my question becomes in my mind, what is the trigger 1:31:54.520 --> 1:31:58.519 point where people react. We saw this in Israel. There 1:31:58.680 --> 1:32:02.120 was a trigger point. It was not anticipated. No one 1:32:02.240 --> 1:32:04.720 felt that they would get into power and do this, 1:32:04.920 --> 1:32:08.479 and the public said no, Moss. We certainly know there 1:32:08.520 --> 1:32:11.880 are plenty of trigger points on the right. Is there 1:32:11.960 --> 1:32:15.040 a trigger point on the left? As I say, I 1:32:15.200 --> 1:32:19.000 thought there was. Things are going in the wrong direction, 1:32:20.280 --> 1:32:27.680 even if I mean, one can't predict the future. But 1:32:28.080 --> 1:32:33.719 the Republicans presently control the House of Representatives. They passed 1:32:33.840 --> 1:32:36.120 the debt ceiling limits under Trump when there was a 1:32:36.160 --> 1:32:38.599 lot of spending. They won't do it under Biden. They 1:32:38.720 --> 1:32:43.640 won't even put forth a budget. How long can this 1:32:43.960 --> 1:32:49.680 go on? Before people react and at this point, yeah, but. 1:32:49.800 --> 1:32:53.720 Remember Israel is a country. It's more homogeneous. America is 1:32:53.760 --> 1:32:56.600 not really a homogeneous is not a homogeneous country like 1:32:56.680 --> 1:33:01.000 Italy Israel. I know, Israel's come from all over Europe 1:33:01.040 --> 1:33:05.640 and other people. After the diaspora. Diaspora, however you have 1:33:05.760 --> 1:33:09.000 pronounced that. I mean they are many, many came back return. 1:33:09.360 --> 1:33:14.800 It's still through the cultural and the religion there's more homogeneous, 1:33:15.520 --> 1:33:20.080 you know, the Orthodox alternate notwithstanding or Italy or French, 1:33:20.120 --> 1:33:22.320 you know, you got this sort of or the Dutch people. 1:33:23.000 --> 1:33:27.080 America is a different story. And I'll tell you this counting, 1:33:27.680 --> 1:33:30.040 it's not going to end in like several lifetimes as 1:33:30.080 --> 1:33:34.120 far as we know, because the way the thing was 1:33:34.200 --> 1:33:37.920 set up Israel, they don't have states. They don't have 1:33:38.040 --> 1:33:40.960 an Alabama, they don't have a Massachusetts, they don't have 1:33:41.040 --> 1:33:45.920 a South Dakota. It's set up so you've got to 1:33:46.040 --> 1:33:47.680 go through a lot of hoops and a lot of 1:33:47.760 --> 1:33:54.080 ringers to get things to stop, especially taking because it's 1:33:54.160 --> 1:33:59.120 not just not selling assault weapons. You got to do 1:33:59.200 --> 1:34:01.560 what Australia is. You've got to turn the weapons in 1:34:02.400 --> 1:34:04.799 and pay, you know, pay people to turn their weapons 1:34:04.880 --> 1:34:08.479 and they've got more webs than people. It's just and 1:34:08.600 --> 1:34:11.040 it's it's going on and on and on. So I mean, 1:34:11.600 --> 1:34:16.960 it's become it's like palpable. It's the danger in the 1:34:17.040 --> 1:34:21.559 States is and the Republicans are whoever they those people are, 1:34:21.640 --> 1:34:24.840 they're not. No one's going to change this. There's going 1:34:24.920 --> 1:34:26.519 to be more than what there's been one hundred and 1:34:26.680 --> 1:34:30.120 seventy mass shootings. I said before, since the New Year. 1:34:30.600 --> 1:34:36.439 It's March thirtieth now, it's these things are going to espect. 1:34:36.520 --> 1:34:38.280 More of these guns are being sold. It's a good 1:34:38.320 --> 1:34:41.839 business to be in selling guns, you know, the handgun 1:34:41.920 --> 1:34:45.439 thing with no licenses, right, They don't even need to 1:34:45.479 --> 1:34:47.600 get a lesson. They don't have to go learn how 1:34:47.680 --> 1:34:50.080 to shoot, go to get a certificate from a shooting 1:34:50.120 --> 1:34:52.960 club that you know how to use a weapon, and 1:34:53.080 --> 1:34:54.880 you can carry it around to a bar, into a 1:34:55.000 --> 1:34:59.160 high school, into a college behind your back, your belt. 1:35:00.640 --> 1:35:02.360 So I don't know how this is going to play, 1:35:03.000 --> 1:35:05.320 you know, but you read the article. That was the 1:35:05.400 --> 1:35:10.360 scariest thing I ever read. Because there's no support, there's 1:35:10.400 --> 1:35:14.240 no backing up. They just want to live. They want 1:35:14.240 --> 1:35:16.880 to unleash it more. They want to what's the word 1:35:16.880 --> 1:35:20.680 on leash or they want to lessen the restrictions, right. 1:35:21.560 --> 1:35:23.599 I mean some of the stuff is absolutely head turning, 1:35:24.160 --> 1:35:29.040 like getting in Arkansas, getting rid of protections for child workers. 1:35:29.640 --> 1:35:32.320 I am a pessimist, but I must throw in here. 1:35:33.520 --> 1:35:38.240 We grew up the concept that marijuana would be legal. 1:35:39.520 --> 1:35:42.240 People talked about it, we laughed about it. But it's 1:35:42.320 --> 1:35:46.479 true gays can get married. So as much as I'm 1:35:46.520 --> 1:35:51.080 a pessimist, things can change. The other thing is, we 1:35:51.240 --> 1:35:54.280 grew up with all these people fighting for their nations 1:35:54.320 --> 1:35:57.600 and we'd say, man, that's not where I'm at. You 1:35:57.720 --> 1:36:03.080 look at some of these countries like Hungry, like Ukraine. 1:36:03.240 --> 1:36:07.519 In the reverse, you realize at some point maybe you 1:36:07.720 --> 1:36:09.760 have to. I'm an old guy, but you have to 1:36:09.880 --> 1:36:13.720 sacrifice your life for some This is the other thing 1:36:14.160 --> 1:36:17.760 that you're talking about in your art. You're standing for 1:36:17.960 --> 1:36:22.920 something that's a concept that has been lost to say. 1:36:23.080 --> 1:36:26.880 I'm gonna put everything on the line, irrelevant of what 1:36:27.120 --> 1:36:27.519 goes on. 1:36:28.439 --> 1:36:30.280 I'm putting things on the line, and you got to 1:36:30.320 --> 1:36:35.080 start with one person, start somewhere. Also, remember game marriage, 1:36:35.600 --> 1:36:40.320 marijuana doesn't have This thing chizzled into the Constitution called 1:36:40.360 --> 1:36:43.720 the Second Amendment and the second Second Amendment. By the way, 1:36:45.160 --> 1:36:48.720 it was where Robert Palmer hit me into this. You know, 1:36:49.120 --> 1:36:50.120 the writer from the name. 1:36:50.080 --> 1:36:53.160 Robert Palmer, the writer New York Times nowseason. 1:36:52.640 --> 1:36:55.599 Palmer, it's you know him and his daughter in mine 1:36:55.640 --> 1:36:58.800 went to Sarah Lawrence together. They were very best friends, 1:36:58.840 --> 1:37:02.080 and Palmer was very close friend of mine. He said, 1:37:02.120 --> 1:37:07.040 you know, the Second Amendment, and I it turned out 1:37:07.080 --> 1:37:11.000 to be totally, patently true. The Second Amendment was not about, well, 1:37:11.040 --> 1:37:13.080 the British are going to come, let's all get our 1:37:13.160 --> 1:37:16.840 guns out to protect ourselves. It was put in by 1:37:17.400 --> 1:37:23.439 Southern states only for white slave owners to have enough AMMO, 1:37:23.640 --> 1:37:29.360 have enough guns to prevent uprisings. That's all the Second 1:37:29.400 --> 1:37:32.720 Amendent was ever about. And it was nothing more or 1:37:32.800 --> 1:37:36.360 nothing less, nothing to do but the British are coming, 1:37:36.520 --> 1:37:38.840 or this is kind of nothing like that. It was 1:37:39.000 --> 1:37:46.680 only about protecting against slave uprisings. And I mean, think 1:37:46.720 --> 1:37:51.679 about that and that and that tacit understanding that built 1:37:51.720 --> 1:38:00.160 in thing. People aren't You don't need a pistol to 1:38:00.200 --> 1:38:04.160 shoot a deer for food. You don't need an assault 1:38:04.240 --> 1:38:07.559 rifle to shoot a deer to eat food. So they 1:38:07.720 --> 1:38:11.160 changed the narrative to saying well, government's bad. They're going 1:38:11.240 --> 1:38:15.120 to come and fuck us over, not only take our 1:38:15.160 --> 1:38:17.439 guns away, but they're going to tax us. They're gonna this, 1:38:17.600 --> 1:38:21.320 they're going to that. So they switched from deer to government. 1:38:21.680 --> 1:38:26.320 They switched the whole rationale at the NRA. So you know, 1:38:26.720 --> 1:38:30.160 the and this thing, it's going to be the second amount. 1:38:30.240 --> 1:38:33.840 That's a tough rock to pry loose in this thing, 1:38:34.120 --> 1:38:36.280 which is different than the gay marriage, are different than 1:38:36.320 --> 1:38:41.320 the marijuana things. Those are cultural. Those things cultural evolutions 1:38:41.840 --> 1:38:44.559 that happen, and that's good. It's off of the good. 1:38:46.000 --> 1:38:49.360 I mean, William Browse was talking about decriminalizing pot like 1:38:49.560 --> 1:38:55.200 in the forties. But I mean it's it's just a 1:38:55.400 --> 1:38:59.360 very difficult and a very dangerous and I mean I 1:38:59.439 --> 1:39:03.000 don't like to be alarmists, but what's going on. It's 1:39:03.080 --> 1:39:05.760 a very very dangerous thing. And the young people that 1:39:05.840 --> 1:39:07.840 should be changing the rules are the ones pulling the 1:39:07.880 --> 1:39:09.120 triggers killing everybody. 1:39:09.960 --> 1:39:14.160 Wow, that's pretty dynamic. So needless to say, as you 1:39:14.240 --> 1:39:19.280 said earlier, the pace is accelerating. So what will be 1:39:19.560 --> 1:39:22.760 the effect of the pace accelerating. 1:39:23.560 --> 1:39:26.040 Well, there'll be more people killed, There'll be more shootings, 1:39:26.120 --> 1:39:30.760 more mass shootings, more suicides, young people at home in 1:39:30.840 --> 1:39:36.880 their homes. I mean guns, I guess after the thing 1:39:37.000 --> 1:39:39.439 I wrote. Guns are kind of unavoidable to discuss this 1:39:39.600 --> 1:39:41.960 at this point, especially it's right in your face in 1:39:42.040 --> 1:39:45.280 the newspaper, on TV all the time as we speak. 1:39:45.360 --> 1:39:49.760 Something's probably happened. But young people having guns. It's the 1:39:49.920 --> 1:39:54.360 leading cause of death with young people. Teenagers are guns. 1:39:57.160 --> 1:40:01.920 Yeah, I saw that report. But let's just assume for 1:40:02.000 --> 1:40:06.000 the sake of discussion that there won't be laws preventing this. 1:40:06.920 --> 1:40:09.439 What's going to happen. Do you think everybody's going to 1:40:09.520 --> 1:40:12.320 get a gun? What's going to happen in schools? What 1:40:12.400 --> 1:40:15.240 do you think will be the reaction to this action? 1:40:16.400 --> 1:40:20.000 Well, the reaction from the right is that teachers should 1:40:20.080 --> 1:40:23.679 be armed. Maybe students should be armed to protect themselves 1:40:23.720 --> 1:40:26.160 for somebody's going to come and kill them. That have 1:40:26.320 --> 1:40:30.160 more guns is the answer to guns in places where 1:40:30.160 --> 1:40:34.160 there could be a mass gatherings, where there could be 1:40:34.240 --> 1:40:38.599 some kind of a threat. But look, man, these things 1:40:38.720 --> 1:40:42.920 have in MYO the video, I mean, it's this little 1:40:43.320 --> 1:40:46.040 film art piece thing. It's not hard, it's just a film. 1:40:47.120 --> 1:40:51.080 I mean, there's McDonald's. There's restaurants, there's gas stations. I mean, 1:40:51.920 --> 1:40:53.439 if you're on the road, man, you pull into a 1:40:53.520 --> 1:40:55.639 gas station two in the morning, there's some pretty weird 1:40:55.680 --> 1:40:58.639 people standing around the pumps. And man, some of these 1:40:58.680 --> 1:41:01.600 people got guns. And you're just going to get a 1:41:01.680 --> 1:41:07.560 cant a Snickers bar, you know, And it's I, I 1:41:07.640 --> 1:41:11.880 don't know, I don't know, but mark my mark my 1:41:11.960 --> 1:41:16.880 words out of this thing. Yeah, keep tune in and 1:41:17.720 --> 1:41:19.840 kick tuned in to my my, my little movies. 1:41:22.200 --> 1:41:26.120 On that note, Eric, I think we're going to put 1:41:26.160 --> 1:41:30.639 a stop to it. You're a very aer udite, intelligent man. 1:41:31.040 --> 1:41:35.120 Great to get the history. You can obviously wrestle with 1:41:35.240 --> 1:41:38.080 the issues. Thanks so much for taking the time with 1:41:38.200 --> 1:41:42.680 my audience. Good night, Okay, till next time. This is 1:41:42.800 --> 1:41:43.840 Bob Left Sets