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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is legendary singer songwriter Eric Anderson. Eric,

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Speaker 1: you have a new song, Danger Lane. Tell us about it.

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Speaker 2: I think it pretty much speaks for itself. It's about

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Speaker 2: school shootings, mass shootings. Our quator with David Amram last

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Speaker 2: May and we did it in one take.

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Speaker 1: And you live in the Netherlands. You talk about David Amram,

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Speaker 1: who still lives I think near Woodstock. How did you

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Speaker 1: actually do it?

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Speaker 2: Went into a studio, he started a piano and I

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Speaker 2: got the on booth and I just read the lyric.

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Speaker 2: I read the narrative and he played piano.

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Speaker 1: And this was where.

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Speaker 2: Shelter Shelter Island Studio in New York.

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Speaker 1: I see, and you are doing some promotion on this.

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Speaker 1: How you getting the word out?

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Speaker 2: I put it on Facebook and nobody looked at it.

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Speaker 1: You put it a Facebook and nobody looked at it.

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Speaker 2: As what you said, maybe twenty people.

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Speaker 1: So what are you doing to get people to look

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Speaker 1: at it?

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Speaker 2: Well, the guy I work with, the guy not the

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Speaker 2: guy who does the visuals Rent and Fisheries in Toronto,

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Speaker 2: he's like this very young wizard. I gave him the images,

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Speaker 2: he put it together, and he's putting some stuff on

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Speaker 2: TikTok and putting some teasers up like one Verse to

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Speaker 2: try to get some interests. I mean it's growing. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's like we've had about three hundred hits in about

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Speaker 2: thirteen days. But I mean it's not a thing you

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Speaker 2: can say you like, you know, like somebody's dog or

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Speaker 2: somebody's anniversary or somebody's birthday. Yeah, I like this. I

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Speaker 2: like that. You know, you don't you don't. You don't

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Speaker 2: watch a video about mass shootings and school shootings and

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Speaker 2: say I like it. So I don't know if people

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Speaker 2: know how to respond, but if they watch it, they don't,

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Speaker 2: they don't respond.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's very impact though. What inspired you to weigh

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Speaker 1: in on this now?

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm probably one of the only artists who are

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Speaker 2: doing it and weighing in on these kinds of things.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm I'm doing a thing like this. I'm

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Speaker 2: working on a thing about militias private armies in America. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm working on a bunch of things that I guess

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Speaker 2: nobody you know, things that are only in the news

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Speaker 2: or newspapers or television. You know, things like that. Artists don't.

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Speaker 2: It's too much to wrap your heads around. You can't.

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Speaker 2: I mean it's not topical in the normal sense where

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Speaker 2: you write a topical song and then the next day

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Speaker 2: something else happens. You know, when people first started writing

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Speaker 2: topical songs in the village, people that fill up folks

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Speaker 2: or tom packs and those people. I mean, if something happened,

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Speaker 2: you had to wait till Walter Cronkite come on and

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Speaker 2: the next night for a half hour newscast or something,

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Speaker 2: or get some people got the New York Times maybe,

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Speaker 2: and you could write a protest song about a specific event. Now, man, all,

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Speaker 2: I mean, this ship has hit the fan. I mean

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Speaker 2: it's twenty four hour, twenty four to seven news c

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Speaker 2: and I mean it's just it's NonStop. So for a writer,

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Speaker 2: how do you put your where do you grab something

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Speaker 2: and say, I'm going to write a protest song. So

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Speaker 2: these songs that I'm doing on they're not really protest songs.

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Speaker 2: They are more like descriptions of diseases, long term descriptions,

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Speaker 2: you know, They're not dealing with an event at the moment.

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Speaker 2: And of course, since we recorded this in May, many

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Speaker 2: many mass shootings have happened, and many school shootings happened.

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Speaker 2: I think there's over one hundred and seventy now since

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Speaker 2: the New Year, there's been one hundred and seven many

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Speaker 2: mass shootings when it's over three or four people in

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Speaker 2: the United States.

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Speaker 1: And to what did we Does music today have power

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Speaker 1: to make change?

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: You tell me, well, the biggest challenge is being heard

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Speaker 1: relevant of the content of the music. Tell me more

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Speaker 1: about the private militias.

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Speaker 2: Just getting back to dangerlund just say it's on YouTube.

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Speaker 2: I'm from I was from Buffalo, New York, and we

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Speaker 2: rolled into town the day after the want there was

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Speaker 2: a shooting at the top supermarket, like about, you know,

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Speaker 2: four blocks away from where I was doing a gig.

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Speaker 2: And we've been driving around doing some shows and I

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Speaker 2: went over there actually to pick up an honorary doctorate

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Speaker 2: and we got some gigs around that we played. And

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Speaker 2: it was the first time I went to the States, right,

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Speaker 2: I felt this palpable, like something could happen to anybody.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't like going this was last spring. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: the feeling where you could you know, these things happened

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Speaker 2: to somebody else, like somebody died or something happened to them,

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Speaker 2: but it's not going to happen to me. But this

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Speaker 2: time when I went over, I had, you know, man,

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Speaker 2: the stuff could just happened to you know, I just

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Speaker 2: it was in the air, something I ever felt before

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Speaker 2: coming to the States. And then we rolled into town.

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Speaker 2: Man the day after this thing at the tops happened,

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Speaker 2: and then the EVOLVEDI thing, so last thing. So we

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Speaker 2: put some of this stuff together and made a video.

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Speaker 2: And that's what I'm doing. I'm making videos. And since then,

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Speaker 2: how many look what's happened. It's like, it's a no

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Speaker 2: brainer write a song about this. I mean, it's going

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Speaker 2: to be happening next week, the week after that. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's not a people, it's not a thing people on

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Speaker 2: Facebook or Instagram. I really want to see who wants

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Speaker 2: to hear about this stuff. I mean so, but anyway,

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Speaker 2: somebody's got to take a look at it. And so

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Speaker 2: it was me. So I was the one that got tapped.

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Speaker 2: I was the shoulder that got tapped on. The militia

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Speaker 2: thing is along the same lines, you know, using images

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Speaker 2: and talking about being summoned by you know, like a

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Speaker 2: leader who snaps his fingers and everybody's ready to go,

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Speaker 2: uh little private armies. So it's a it's a it's

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Speaker 2: a work about that. So we're we're working on this. Now.

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Speaker 2: I've already done, I've already uh recorded the track. We

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Speaker 2: just have to make the video with this this guy Brandan,

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Speaker 2: he's got the images I sent and so so we're

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Speaker 2: doing that. We're putting these kind of things together. But

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Speaker 2: I don't know if anybody's going to look at it

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Speaker 2: and want to see it, they're interested, who knows. But

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Speaker 2: it's something I just show you I had to do.

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Speaker 2: And but I don't think I don't know any artists

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Speaker 2: that are the Dare Delvin of these the matters. So

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Speaker 2: we'll see what happens.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you have it quite a perspective, having been in

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Speaker 1: music and being very aware sixty plus years ago what

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Speaker 1: changed in America?

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Speaker 2: You're asking me, I'm asking you, what do you think.

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Speaker 1: I think it was when the Baby boomers, after the

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Speaker 1: sixties were over, became very focused on money, and then

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Speaker 1: when Reagan legitimized greed, they sort of lost all of

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Speaker 1: their sixties values. That's the key element in my book.

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Speaker 1: And then committing quality after that, Well.

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Speaker 2: It's a complex question. The stuff that. I think it

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Speaker 2: just became more evident after the sixties. This stuff was

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Speaker 2: always going on since Melan Carnegie Rock of this stuff's

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Speaker 2: always been going on. I think people in the sixties,

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Speaker 2: you know, they had this maybe they had this hope.

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Speaker 2: You know. I was, I mean I was in the

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Speaker 2: first handful of songwriters looking at this stuff, you know,

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Speaker 2: in the village. I mean, it gave birth to what

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Speaker 2: the so called singer songwriter movement, you know, and those

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Speaker 2: people maybe might have seven people, five people writing writing

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Speaker 2: about five hundred thousand things. Now you've got five hundred

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Speaker 2: thousand singer songwriters and it's hard to even write about five.

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Speaker 1: Things that well well put.

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Speaker 2: So you get this, you get this dream of the sixties,

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Speaker 2: and you think things are going to happen, and then

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Speaker 2: you find out that the good guy's lost. You know.

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Speaker 2: But it was a beautiful idea, but it just didn't fly.

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Speaker 2: And you know, it just it goes on and it

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Speaker 2: goes on and it goes on. You know, it's not

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Speaker 2: the country. Well, first of all, America is many countries.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of different kinds. There's a lot of

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Speaker 2: America's happening in one country, and they're always amen, and

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Speaker 2: getting trying to get everybody to agree on anything is

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Speaker 2: very difficult. I mean, the Italians don't agree on anything,

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Speaker 2: and they're just one people. In America, you get a

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Speaker 2: country of immigrants, and every wave of immigrants hated the

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Speaker 2: next wave, every wave of immigrants that came. I don't

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Speaker 2: know if you ever read Cheos Without Money by Michael Golden.

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Speaker 2: It's a brilliant book about the Lowers Side, about how

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Speaker 2: people lived in their neighborhood cages. It's an absolutely incredible book.

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Speaker 2: And every time I knew, you know, if you if

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Speaker 2: you went around the corner, you went to the wrong block,

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Speaker 2: they kicked the ship out of you. And I mean

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Speaker 2: the Italians get you. If they didn't, then the Irish

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Speaker 2: would get you. And I mean, and the whole thing

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Speaker 2: was built up where you when you got to America,

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Speaker 2: you dropped everything at the door. You know, you drop

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Speaker 2: the language, you dropped the culture, you dropped You're going

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Speaker 2: to you know, Lucy, you're going to be an American.

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Speaker 2: Don't talk Italian, don't talk about this, don't talk about it.

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Speaker 2: You're going to learn to be an American. And that's

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Speaker 2: the way that was where things took a left turn.

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Speaker 2: So a lot of beautiful cultural stuff just got thrown

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Speaker 2: by the you know, cast aside because people wanted their

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Speaker 2: kids to conform and to belong and to be part

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Speaker 2: of the big, big dream. So, you know, so the

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Speaker 2: splintering and all this and strange false consensus of what

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Speaker 2: it is to be this or be that. It was

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Speaker 2: a dangerous thing. It was a big weapon. It was

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Speaker 2: a club, you know, promulgated by Hollywood, you know, white

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Speaker 2: fences and keep mothers at the door with aprons, and

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Speaker 2: you know, it's and no one can, no one could

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Speaker 2: possibly not all people could fit into this thing. So

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know if the sixties something

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Speaker 2: happened afterwards. There is always this way. That's a tough

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Speaker 2: it's a tough question.

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Speaker 1: Well, you were born in forty three, so you're really

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Speaker 1: a child in the fifties. What were the fifties like?

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Speaker 1: You were ten years older than I am. Were they

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Speaker 1: as straight liced and repressed and mindless as they're depicted.

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Speaker 2: Well, you had to have something to compare it to.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you didn't. You can just walk around in

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Speaker 2: your saddleshiares and say hmm no, but I had an

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Speaker 2: ankling something was a little wrong. I mean, of course

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Speaker 2: I did, you know, that's so I gravitated to things.

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Speaker 2: I mean, when I was thirteen, I went to see

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Speaker 2: Elvis Presley, and my parents took me to see Miles

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Speaker 2: Davis when I was like fifteen, So I mean I

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Speaker 2: got to see some stuff. But you know, you knew something,

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Speaker 2: something was in the air. And I think it was

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Speaker 2: just through reading and through films and stuff that I

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Speaker 2: realized there was another world out there that had nothing

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Speaker 2: to do with what I was looking at. And that's

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Speaker 2: the world I wanted to find. And that's the world

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Speaker 2: I wanted to see, and that's the world I wanted

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Speaker 2: to live in. And that's why people jumped ship and

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Speaker 2: they you know, that was the that was the thing

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Speaker 2: that informed the sixties. Some people were braver than others.

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Speaker 2: Some people, you know, cut a new path coming from

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Speaker 2: the Beats, you know, the Beat. The beat things started

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Speaker 2: it in the village and in San Francisco and the hippies,

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Speaker 2: you know, the beats were like the Beats were like hippies,

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Speaker 2: but hippies didn't read books. But it was a movement

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Speaker 2: and uh literary movement and that and people at least

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Speaker 2: I've got I picked up on it, and I think

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Speaker 2: people like Bob, you know, Dylan and lou Reid and

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Speaker 2: people like that picked up on it. A few people.

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Speaker 1: So growing up in the Buffalo area, what'd your father

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Speaker 1: do for a living?

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Speaker 2: Well, my father was He was a metal metallurgical engineer

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Speaker 2: who went to Case Western Reserve and he dealt with

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Speaker 2: nuclear energy projects. I don't know how specific you want

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Speaker 2: to got.

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Speaker 1: As specific as you do, well.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. He uh, he worked with it. He

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Speaker 2: worked with a metal called zirconium. Zirconium was a metal,

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Speaker 2: and he worked with people that work with nuclear energy

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Speaker 2: and nuclear reactors, submarines, all kinds of things that dealt

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Speaker 2: with nuclear reactors. Zirconium was this metal that was a

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Speaker 2: coat around uranium. It was like it was like a

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Speaker 2: shaft something went around it and so the uranium would

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Speaker 2: heat up and it was surrounded by water. And nuclear

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Speaker 2: energy is basically steam, you know, like that makes electricity.

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Speaker 2: That's all it is. Really, So you got it. You've

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Speaker 2: got nuclear nuclear energy, nuclear rods, and you've got water

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Speaker 2: and a mixed steam. But the problem is the uranium

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Speaker 2: it oxidizes, it rusts, so Zirconium was an element of

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Speaker 2: metal that allowed the electrons to pass through to you know,

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Speaker 2: create a nuclear fission, and but it wouldn't rust. So

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Speaker 2: the zirconium allowed the activity to go on without having

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Speaker 2: the nuclear rods rusting or oxidizing. And in between those

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Speaker 2: things were carbon rods that would absorb electrons that could

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Speaker 2: make because you know, splitting atoms, the electrons went flying

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Speaker 2: all over the place looking for other atoms to split.

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Speaker 2: So they had carb they had carbon rods. It's very simple, actually,

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Speaker 2: and then you had carbon rods in the next two

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Speaker 2: They could absorb electrons and therefore you could control the heat,

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Speaker 2: how hot you wanted it, and so did an explode

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Speaker 2: like a nuclear bomb. So that's the kind of thing

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Speaker 2: he was into, what he was involved with.

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Speaker 1: So in the late fifties and early sixties, although we

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Speaker 1: had fear of the H and A bombs, this was

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Speaker 1: really cutting edge stuff. But by the late seventies there

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Speaker 1: was a reaction the China syndrome. What'd your father think

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Speaker 1: about all that?

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Speaker 2: About what China?

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Speaker 1: The people who suddenly were against nuclear power.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean these are things they probably read about

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Speaker 2: in the newspapers. There were protest marches and whatnot. It

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Speaker 2: didn't affect him directly. Nobody laid siege to the company

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Speaker 2: or surrounded the surrounded them where they had to build

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Speaker 2: a motor around it or something like that. They you know,

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Speaker 2: they carried on business, and they still do today to

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Speaker 2: some degree. I mean, there's people like my father that

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Speaker 2: are working in France, you know, Germany, all over the

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Speaker 2: all over the world, and in China and rush everywhere,

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Speaker 2: and anybody who deals with nuclear energy deals with this.

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Speaker 2: But protest wise, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, did you ever argue with your father about

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Speaker 1: nuclear energy? Were you against nuclear power?

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Speaker 2: My parents were Republicans, so I didn't. I didn't have

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Speaker 2: any kind of I didn't take any kind of stance

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Speaker 2: on this at all. In fact, I wasn't really aware

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Speaker 2: of the of these movements, which is kind of an

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Speaker 2: insular value of being in a suburb. I guess, you know,

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Speaker 2: you get insulated from all this.

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Speaker 1: So how many kids in the family?

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Speaker 2: Whose family?

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Speaker 1: Your family growing up?

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Speaker 2: Well, there was a there was a mother, father, and

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Speaker 2: two brothers.

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Speaker 1: So where are you in the hierarchy of the three kids.

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Speaker 2: Well, well, there are two brothers, me and another brother.

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Speaker 1: Okay, are you the older or the younger.

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Speaker 2: And the young I mean I'm the older.

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Speaker 1: Why what kind of kid were you growing up? Were

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Speaker 1: you like a member of the group? Were you outside

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Speaker 1: of group? We're the leader?

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Speaker 2: Well, man, I was on the student council, I was

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Speaker 2: vice president of a class one year, and then I

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Speaker 2: lost interests in all that stuff. And I, like I said,

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Speaker 2: I was, I was in a lot of extra curricular reading.

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Speaker 2: But I did. I work in a restaurant, and I

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Speaker 2: worked in a record store make money to buy records.

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Speaker 2: I uh played some sports. I played tennis. I was

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Speaker 2: on a football team for a while and played baseball.

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Speaker 2: You know, the usual stuff, whatever kid does.

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Speaker 1: So you were aware at the birth of rock and roll?

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Speaker 1: What was that like?

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Speaker 2: Well, it was pretty earth shattering, you know. I mean

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Speaker 2: I my parents been listening to people like Raynoble, My

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Speaker 2: father like rayn Noble, Elbowdi you know, the very thought

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Speaker 2: of you those I don't know how familiar with this stuff.

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Speaker 2: You know, Benny Goodman, these kind of big band, big

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Speaker 2: bands used to play this, you know. I mean he

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Speaker 2: he when he went to when he went to high school.

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Speaker 2: One weekend, count Basie played by high school in Cleveland

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Speaker 2: and the other weekend, Duke Ellington played, so he was

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Speaker 2: he was very exposed to big band music and America.

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Speaker 2: You love music. Rock and roll was this was the way.

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Speaker 2: It was the vehicle that taught us how to learn

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Speaker 2: three chords on a guitar. See, we all started with

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Speaker 2: rock and roll. And Buddy Holly and the Everly Brothers

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Speaker 2: came to my high school to play. I saw them.

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Speaker 2: I saw I always performed at the Memorial auDA tourium

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Speaker 2: and a goal suit. So it was and I've learned

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Speaker 2: to start playing guitar, and you know, I was. I

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Speaker 2: had a few I had a couple of folk groups,

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Speaker 2: had a rock group. You know, but every kid does that,

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Speaker 2: I think in the fifties.

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Speaker 1: So what was it like seeing Elvis and Buddy Holly.

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Speaker 2: Well, you were, you knew you were in the presence

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Speaker 2: of it. I mean I didn't get to see Duke

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Speaker 2: Ellington in person. I didn't get to see Gwen Miller,

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Speaker 2: I didn't get to see Benny Good. They were all

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Speaker 2: on records. I mean I never got to see but

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Speaker 2: they were great. You know, you know, you were in

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Speaker 2: the present and stead of a great musical explosion. It

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Speaker 2: was like it was like being parachuted into a volcano.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you graduate from high school, you go to college.

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Speaker 1: What was college like?

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Speaker 2: Well, I was in pre med. I'd been working at

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Speaker 2: a cancer institute in Buffalo Roswell Park for a couple

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Speaker 2: of years, and under the auspices of this Hungarian doctor

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Speaker 2: who lived next door to me, we became friends and

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Speaker 2: you got me interested in research. So I was going

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Speaker 2: to I was interested in becoming a research scientist. And

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Speaker 2: so I was in the pre med and college. But

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Speaker 2: then I started getting too music and more and more,

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Speaker 2: and I started reading stuff that wasn't part of the curriculum.

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Speaker 2: And then I was in a motorcycle fraternity, which I

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Speaker 2: quit very soon, and it wasn't in it for very long.

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Speaker 2: When they they were rushing Jewish kids and they when

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Speaker 2: they they said, come to the kitchen, I want to

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Speaker 2: want to show our ovens that I just packed a

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Speaker 2: bag and I booked out. Either I never went back again,

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Speaker 2: but I still kept a motorcycle. So we were doing

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Speaker 2: things like jumping freights. It was Lake Geneva was a

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Speaker 2: Hobart Colleges and lake and the freight trains would go

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Speaker 2: by and we were jumping freights. And then came the

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Speaker 2: unfortunate day when a few of us went and ripped

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Speaker 2: up the president's lawn with their motorcycles and fucked up

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Speaker 2: the shrubs and just just really didn't care. So I

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Speaker 2: was expelled, expelled, A few of us were expelled, and

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Speaker 2: it's funny just to conclude this story, a year ago

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Speaker 2: I got an email from the dean of the college.

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Speaker 2: But parents before I say, when I got expelled by

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Speaker 2: I went direpidly to San Francisco because I wanted to.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to meet the beats or see the beat scene.

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Speaker 2: So I had a plan. But a year ago I

361
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Speaker 2: got this email saying they wanted to give me an

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Speaker 2: honorary doctorate at this college, and I thought it was

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Speaker 2: a hoax. I said, they got to be fucking crazy.

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Speaker 2: So my wife, who is a doctor, she is a

365
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Speaker 2: PhD actually, and she's a scientist. She said, maybe read

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Speaker 2: this again, and the guy wrote me again. He said,

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Speaker 2: you know, we want to give you this PhD. And

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Speaker 2: the guy turned out to be great, this deane, he

369
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Speaker 2: just turned out to be amazing. But he really said,

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Speaker 2: we want to give you this PhD in Humanities and

371
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Speaker 2: literature because you were the most accomplished dropout the school

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Speaker 2: has ever seen in two hundred year history of its

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Speaker 2: two hundred year history. So I went there and I

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Speaker 2: I got uh work cap and gown, and I got

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Speaker 2: a scroll and my wife and our biggest fear was within,

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Speaker 2: you know, hidden within the scroll would be some kind

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Speaker 2: of invoice or bill for like a gardening bill of

378
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Speaker 2: like eighty thousand dollars or something for what we did

379
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Speaker 2: to the to the to the loan of the president.

380
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Speaker 2: But people remembered it, and I mean they're still talking

381
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Speaker 2: about him who was extraordined. I mean, winning the lottery,

382
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Speaker 2: all the lotteries would be probably greater the chances than

383
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Speaker 2: me getting this in this college was this is Hobart College.

384
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Speaker 2: It's a private school in Geneva, New York. And ingam.

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Speaker 2: My wife said, you know, we tell people on some

386
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Speaker 2: she sings in my group when we play we play,

387
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Speaker 2: she says, you know what what took She was a

388
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Speaker 2: little kind of mock irritated. She says, what took me

389
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Speaker 2: like five years to get a PhD in the Netherlands,

390
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Speaker 2: took you five minutes. She didn't like that. Sorry, but

391
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Speaker 2: she's a good sport. So we did some shows and

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Speaker 2: that's where That's where I rolled into town after the

393
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Speaker 2: tops massacre the supermarket, and that's when the Boss started

394
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:18,640
Speaker 2: rolling on these these new kinds of topical works. I'm

395
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Speaker 2: doing these videos.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing okay. So A what did your parents say

397
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Speaker 1: when you got expelled? And B how did you literally

398
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Speaker 1: decide and get to San Francisco?

399
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Speaker 2: Well? I hitched out after college. I mean I just

400
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 2: I talked. I mean they love music, so they understood

401
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 2: to some degree. But when I talked to them, I

402
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 2: would always say, promise them, yeah, I'm going to go

403
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Speaker 2: back to school. You know. They said, were you going

404
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,120
Speaker 2: to go back? You ever going to Yeah? I said, yeah,

405
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 2: I'm going to go back. This went on for years.

406
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Speaker 2: I think I had two records out and I was

407
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Speaker 2: still telling you I was going to go back to college.

408
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Speaker 1: So what you hitch site? Did you have any money?

409
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Speaker 1: You landed in San Francisco? What happens?

410
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Speaker 2: Not? Really? I saved a little well. I had a

411
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Speaker 2: little folk group. We did a Woodn't anything. There was

412
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Speaker 2: a guy named Harry Altman. Harry Altman ran the Town Casino,

413
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Speaker 2: which was which was the club. It was like the

414
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 2: guy I'm trying to think of a comparison in New York.

415
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 2: I mean it was a supper club that had like

416
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Speaker 2: people like Sinatra, Dean Martin, all these people. He was

417
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Speaker 2: friends with all these people. So I had this idea

418
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 2: and I went up to I says, you know, I'd

419
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,119
Speaker 2: like to do like a hoot and anything like because

420
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Speaker 2: I figured I could make some money to go to

421
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Speaker 2: the coast. So I had a little group and he

422
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 2: was very receptive because you see, I've heard about this

423
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 2: folk music stuff. Yeah, nanny, hmmm, Well we could give

424
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 2: it a we could give it a whirl. And and

425
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Speaker 2: the place we were doing it was in the Glen Casino,

426
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Speaker 2: which is near where I lived, you know, in the

427
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Speaker 2: suburbs and Snyder. And then the Union got wind of

428
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 2: it and I had to get out of the union

429
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Speaker 2: and join the union. But I couldn't play. I couldn't

430
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Speaker 2: read me well, I had studied piano, but I couldn't

431
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Speaker 2: read music enough to play guitar on a session in Buffalo,

432
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 2: New York with jazz guys or anything like that. But

433
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:19,640
Speaker 2: they were trying to figure out a way to make

434
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 2: the money, get me to pay for the union, but

435
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:27,680
Speaker 2: not have me do any work for the union. So

436
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 2: I had that pan a couple hundred bucks, got in

437
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:36,639
Speaker 2: the union. Harry Oltman was happy about that. And I

438
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 2: mean for years they came around to the clubs I

439
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 2: played in the States, collecting dues. A guy in a

440
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 2: trench call like Peter falkould come and wait til the

441
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 2: end of the show and want twenty bucks and give

442
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 2: me like a like a receipt this stuff when I mean,

443
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 2: I want to and I mean it was crazy because

444
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,679
Speaker 2: I I you know, but we so we did this thing.

445
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 2: It was a huge success. Harry Oltman couldn't believe it.

446
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 2: And we had this packed house and I made a

447
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 2: few hundred bucks, took my guitar and I hitchhiked west,

448
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 2: got rise and met my friend in California and we

449
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 2: went up to went up and got a place in

450
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 2: Stinton Beach in Marin County. This is like nineteen sixty three.

451
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 2: And then I went down to the Coffee Gallery and

452
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 2: North Beach, which is kind of the Italian equivalent village

453
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 2: Greenwage Village, San Francisco. And I got a gig at

454
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 2: the Coffee Gallery and I was playing there a couple

455
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 2: of nights a week. Gino Valente. You know, come on, people,

456
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 2: Let's get together. He wrote that song about peace, you know,

457
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 2: Gino Valente h.

458
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: Of course he was also beating quick Silver passengers.

459
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was. His name is Chet. He had another

460
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 2: Chet something right. Anyway, he wrote a song about peace

461
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,360
Speaker 2: and walked around dealing dope with a boweying k I've

462
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 2: strapped to his thigh walk in the streets. And then

463
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 2: Janet Shopping played another couple of nights, so we were

464
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 2: all we had this little thing going at the Coffee

465
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 2: Gery and that's where TODM. Paxson found me and he

466
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 2: invited me to New York and that's how I got

467
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 2: into the singer songwriter sing So.

468
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 1: Before we get to New York. You were there when

469
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 1: the bead poets were the thing, before it broke through,

470
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: before all the hippies ultimately came. Sixty five, sixty six,

471
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 1: sixty seven. What was it like and did you have

472
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 1: access to fur Ling Getty and all these other people?

473
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 2: Well, yes, and no, I mean I was there. I

474
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 2: met a poet named David Meltzer, and he's a published

475
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 2: poet and he's written he wrote a book about the beats.

476
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 2: He's he was very much into the scene with Michael

477
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 2: McClure and those people, Philip Whalen and he was working

478
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 2: at the City Lights Bookstarting through David, I met Farle

479
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 2: and Getty and then then Alan gins were going to

480
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 2: come in from Cambodia from Vietnam. He floated into town

481
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 2: in all white, looking like he was an Indian guru,

482
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 2: and I met him and met McClure, and uh. Of course,

483
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 2: Alan gainsber was very much against the Vietnam War. He

484
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 2: was over there and he saw all the stuff that

485
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 2: was going on before it escalated. So and David, David

486
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 2: and I had a little group called the Snoops County

487
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 2: Camp Followers, which is like a little folk group that

488
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 2: included my wife, Debbie Green, who was a singer. And

489
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 2: she owned a club called the Cabal out there and Berkeley.

490
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 2: The Cabal is a club. This is a kind of

491
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 2: a tangent tangent tangent gentle uh interview. But she had

492
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 2: a club that you know, like Lightning Hopkins auld play

493
00:29:56,200 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 2: and Doc Watson, you know, Clarence A Actually Lenny Bruce,

494
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 2: you know, they would play her club. It was kind

495
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 2: of modeled up to the Club forty seven became later

496
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 2: became an item and went to New York.

497
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 1: But well, okay, what point did you start playing original material?

498
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 2: Well, I was doing. I was doing. I was doing

499
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 2: original material starting in San Francisco. I was trying stuff out.

500
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 2: I mean, I wanted to be a writer. That that

501
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 2: was that I knew.

502
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: How'd you meet Tom Paxton And how did he convince

503
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 1: you to come to New York?

504
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 2: He was playing at the Cabal where Debbie had this club,

505
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 2: and then he she brought him over to the Coffee Gallery.

506
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 2: You heard me play, and he liked my act and

507
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 2: he invited me to New York and said, here, stay

508
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 2: in my house. He gave me the keys. So I

509
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 2: went there, and Debbie and I went there and we

510
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 2: lived in his house. He was in England for a while,

511
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 2: and then I met Phil Oaks and Phil Phil took

512
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 2: me around the streets. I met Davon Rock, I met Dylan,

513
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 2: bob On Everybody, Patrick Sky, Buffy, Saint Marie, and and

514
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:08,719
Speaker 2: then I got a deal with Vanguard Records.

515
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 1: Okay, before you get there, you hitchhiked to California. How

516
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 1: do you get from California to New York.

517
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 2: I flew to my parents' house in Buffalo. I stayed

518
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 2: there for a couple of months to detox kind of.

519
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 2: And then I went to New York and to Paxson's place.

520
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 2: But when I was in, when I was at my house,

521
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 2: all this stuff's in bios and stuff. Actually, But when

522
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 2: I got to my my parents' house, it was nice

523
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 2: because I could sit at the dining room table and

524
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 2: I really started writing songs. Uh. I wrote a song

525
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 2: called come on My bed Side there I remember, so

526
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:46,719
Speaker 2: it was a it was kind of a beautiful, very

527
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 2: innocent time. And then I got, I think, uh, somehow

528
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 2: I got to ride to New York and and then

529
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 2: it all began.

530
00:31:58,000 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: Now, Debbie was with you the whole time.

531
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, she flew she flew in and then joined me

532
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 2: in New York.

533
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're now in Tom Paxton's apartment. You're there

534
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: with Debbie. You don't really know anybody.

535
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 2: What happens, Well, phil Oaks took me around to meet

536
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 2: a lot of people film and uh, and then and Dylan,

537
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 2: you know, he introduced me to some people. I think

538
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 2: he introduced me to Jack Elliott. And but you know,

539
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 2: Bob was making you know, he was doing tours and

540
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 2: making some good money. He was you know, he was

541
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 2: doing sol tourists driving around. I mean, I think when

542
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 2: I hit when I hit this, when I hit the set,

543
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 2: I think he'd had three records out, you know, but

544
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 2: he'd becoming down and plants testing stuff, and you know,

545
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 2: in the clubs, which is great, and hang out and

546
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 2: it was all about writers and writing and uh, this

547
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 2: little this little group that thought could change the world.

548
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 2: I mean, we're talking about four or five songwriters of

549
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 2: this kind of this kind of you know, people like

550
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 2: Bob and David Blue and phil Oaks. It was just

551
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 2: this a little handful. And there were guys who played

552
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 2: over the night out, people like the great Fred Neil

553
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 2: was like it was my favorite of all of them,

554
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 2: but he and Tim Harden and people at least at Kendrick.

555
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 2: These people played in the night Out. There's a whole

556
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 2: thing over there, you know. And people like Lou Reed

557
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 2: I never met. He was over on the East Side

558
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 2: doing stuff, playing different things, clubs and stuff. So phil Oaks,

559
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 2: phil Oaks will come on. You're saying, saying, Bob, how

560
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 2: are we going to do this? This is nineteen sixty

561
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 2: four and it's now twenty twenty three.

562
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: How are we going to Well, we're going, as I say,

563
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 1: we started this, we started with your new record. As

564
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: I say, I'm willing to jump back to twenty twenty three.

565
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 1: If there's something specific you want to mention.

566
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know. I'm just wondering. It's

567
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 2: a there's a lot of a lot of a lot

568
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 2: of territory. But anyway, Yeah, So it was an exciting

569
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 2: time and I think the highlight for me of being

570
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,800
Speaker 2: in the village was I had signed with Vanguard Records

571
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 2: and had recorded, but I didn't the record didn't come

572
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 2: up for ages. It seemed like an eternity. It's like

573
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 2: being a kid trying to watch in the clock one

574
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 2: as you know one is French French lessons going to

575
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 2: be over, and like the hour never ends. And it

576
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,800
Speaker 2: was like this. I waited like a year and a

577
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 2: half or something to the till the Bloody record came out,

578
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 2: the first album, and it seemed like an eternity. And

579
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,760
Speaker 2: I was living on the Lower East Side, cooking for junkies,

580
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:49,439
Speaker 2: you know, on East tenth Street. So finally the one

581
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:55,320
Speaker 2: thing that was really good was it people in the village.

582
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 2: I got to know all the club owners, like from

583
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 2: the Gate Art to Lougovin. People are like people that

584
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 2: the village vanguard, the jazz places and I and the

585
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 2: people like the gas light and clubs like that on

586
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,359
Speaker 2: Gurtish Folks City. I had done one gig because Robert

587
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 2: Shelton in the New York Times got me a gig

588
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 2: at Folks City, and then kind of nothing happened. It

589
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 2: was a good gig. Me and John Lee Hooker did

590
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 2: a gig, but then nothing happens. I'm sitting around cooking

591
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,760
Speaker 2: for chunkies, trying to do some gardening and for people,

592
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 2: and going to these clubs at night. And then I

593
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 2: lived up at Broadside Magazine. I don't know if you've

594
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 2: heard of that. That broad of course topical songwriting. So

595
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:40,320
Speaker 2: I lived up there. But the most important thing is

596
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 2: that people were playing for a week at venues. You

597
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 2: know light it happens, you know Mississippi, John Hurt, Doc Watson,

598
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 2: Clarence Ashley, all these people devon round fill everybody did

599
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 2: we go in to a club and play for a

600
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 2: week all over America. Miles Davids, John Coltrane, mingus we

601
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 2: play the game for a week. So I could get

602
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 2: down there and I'd sit at their knees at these

603
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 2: people's knees. And this was my PhD in music. I mean,

604
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 2: and sit there every single night and hear Lightning Hopkins

605
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 2: and it blew my mind. And I don't think many

606
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,800
Speaker 2: people can say that. So, I mean, that's where I

607
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:30,359
Speaker 2: really learned, how about touch space music? You know, though

608
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 2: I didn't apply everything I learned right away, because I

609
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:34,800
Speaker 2: can tell by all the scratch marks on my guitar.

610
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 2: I was really overplaying sometimes it was a loud song.

611
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 2: I gotta play loud, you know, and it doesn't. And

612
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 2: I later I found out it really didn't work that

613
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,800
Speaker 2: way because it's all about space.

614
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 1: You said you were cooking for junkies. What were you

615
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,800
Speaker 1: literally doing cooking for junkies?

616
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 2: I was like living on a West t debian e.

617
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 2: Were lived on West tenth Street. These guys lived on

618
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 2: Ice Street. And I'd get down and go to the markets,

619
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,359
Speaker 2: the vegelable marketing stuff, had a kid to the place,

620
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 2: go and cook launch for Then they'd be they'd be

621
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 2: knotted out in the living room and I'd go and

622
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:09,479
Speaker 2: take plates to them food.

623
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 1: And they paid you for this.

624
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 2: They paid me, Yeah, they paid me. I mean, I

625
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 2: don't know how much. Thirty bucks a week or something.

626
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 2: I don't know.

627
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:18,399
Speaker 1: And what was Debbie doing.

628
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 2: Debbie was going between here and Boston. I mean there

629
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 2: in Boston, you know she was. She had her things,

630
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,439
Speaker 2: she had. We got kicked out of this place, said

631
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 2: a German landlord. Was on Eastown Street. He took me

632
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 2: out in the back and set me out of set

633
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 2: me down on a milk carton. He said, I got

634
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 2: to talk to you. I said, yes, what's wrong the rent? No? No,

635
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 2: he said, are you married to that girl? And I

636
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 2: said no. He said, you know, I didn't think so.

637
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 2: And I'm gonna I'm going to evict you from this place.

638
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 2: Evict me for what he said, because you and her

639
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 2: are the reason Adam and iQue got thrown out of

640
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 2: the garden of beating. Pack your bags be out of

641
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 2: here in a week. I mean, you couldn't make this

642
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 2: ship up. But these are the kinds of things that

643
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 2: were happening. I mean, you never knew everything. It's like

644
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 2: a piano fell out of a tree and hitch on

645
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 2: the head. You don't have any You never prepared for

646
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:26,439
Speaker 2: these things.

647
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 1: How'd you get your record deal?

648
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 2: Well? I think Tom Paxston called Robert Shelton at the

649
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 2: New York Times, and Robert Shelton came down to Tom's

650
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 2: house and I played him some songs. I was sitting

651
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 2: in a chair, he was sitting on the bed, and

652
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 2: he liked what he heard and he wrote a thing.

653
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 2: He wrote. He got arranged for a gig at the

654
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 2: Curtius Folks City, and he wrote a thing about me

655
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:00,880
Speaker 2: in the New York Times that I was the antidote

656
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 2: to the Beatles. Because Robert Shelton was a writer who

657
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 2: a brilliant guy. He believed that after Elvis in the

658
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 2: fifties and the rock and roll, the next big thing

659
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 2: should be the singer songwriters, the phil oaks Is and

660
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 2: the Bob Dylans, and that should be the big thing

661
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 2: in American culture. Is musically, the Beatles were immortal ono

662
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 2: me to him. And the ironic thing is that the

663
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 2: Beatles manager became my manager, Brian Epston. That was the

664
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 2: whole twist. And the headline of this article is the

665
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 2: Antidote to the Beatles. So there you go. I mean,

666
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 2: like I said, it's like the piano's falling out of

667
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 2: the trees. So he called Robert Shelton, called Maynard Solomon

668
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 2: and manutt Solomon came down. He said on the bed,

669
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,839
Speaker 2: and I said on the terror, and I sang them

670
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 2: songs and we went and he got me a deal

671
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 2: and that was it. I mean, almost too easy, you know,

672
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 2: it was almost too easy. It was ridiculous.

673
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 1: Okay, while you're cooking for junkies waiting for the album

674
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 1: to come out, are you playing out live? No?

675
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 2: Like I said, I couldn't get any work waiting for

676
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 2: this record to come out. I'm sitting around doing nothing.

677
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 2: I'm just going to hear people playing clubs.

678
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:29,399
Speaker 1: So what happens when the record does come out?

679
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 2: Nothing happened right away, but you know, suddenly there, you know,

680
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 2: people were interested in it because it got really good reviews.

681
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,839
Speaker 2: And so I started playing gigs, you know, for a week,

682
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,360
Speaker 2: like like like Miles did, and like Hofkins did, and

683
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 2: all these all my heroes. So you go to you'd

684
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 2: go play a gig in Cleveland, you go play a

685
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 2: gig in Chicago, you go play a gig in Montreal,

686
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:53,799
Speaker 2: you go play a gig in Toronto, you go play

687
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 2: a gig in Atlanta, and it's like you could you

688
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 2: could live there. You knew the restaurants, you knew where

689
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 2: the movie theaters, you could start a family. I mean,

690
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 2: it was just you basically moved into a town. You

691
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 2: became this sort of weird Dennison of a city. It

692
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 2: was incredible, you know. And you know then, so the

693
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 2: people like me who could see Light Hopkins played for

694
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 2: a week or Mississippi John like multiple times in a

695
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 2: year to see these guys play. People were lucky if

696
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 2: they could even see him play at a college concert

697
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 2: somewhere for one night. I mean, the stuff I saw,

698
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 2: and it doesn't exist anymore, it doesn't skip chains Son House.

699
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 2: All these people I saw, they're gone. Nobody ever got

700
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 2: to see him, I mean except the people who paid

701
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 2: to come, you know, to come to the gigs. But

702
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:50,839
Speaker 2: I got into free so I could just sit there

703
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,280
Speaker 2: all week. And I think I was the only songwriter

704
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 2: who was doing that. I didn't. I don't remember seeing

705
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 2: any pack Center dum Von Rock or Feliks or It

706
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 2: was only me there catching all these blues acts and

707
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 2: jazz acts and you know, and the great folk act

708
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:13,760
Speaker 2: like Clarence Ashley, Gene Ritchie and uh Reverend Gary Davis,

709
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 2: people like that. I mean, it was phenomenal because then

710
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 2: I didn't have a record collection I didn't have. I

711
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 2: didn't have blues records or anything, and it was just phenomenal.

712
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: How did you hook up with Epstein?

713
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:31,359
Speaker 2: I was playing a gig down at the Steve Paul

714
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 2: scene and Bob Bobby Columbia was my drummer. Bobby, you know,

715
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 2: he started blood spotting Terrace later on. Bobby. I don't

716
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 2: know how the hell I met Bobby Colombia, but he

717
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 2: but he was my drummer and I had a little band.

718
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 2: Gabby played some piano and he's somehow knew brianis and

719
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 2: he just I don't know his brother knew him or something,

720
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 2: and he brought Brian down. I didn't know if you

721
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 2: know he was there, Brian was. Brian came down to

722
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 2: the gate. We played, you know, like another gig for

723
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 2: a week. Brian came down for every single night, and

724
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 2: I didn't know he was there for like five nights.

725
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 2: But I just there was this guy sitting there in

726
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 2: the middle. There was always this one person sitting at

727
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 2: the at the table there. And then finally I met

728
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 2: him and we went to Bobby's. He wanted he said,

729
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 2: can I manage you? You know, I'd love to do that.

730
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 2: I said, sure, he said, Oh, I mean this is

731
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 2: the guy who really trusted. I mean, we loved him

732
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 2: right away. We were just shattered when he died. It

733
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 2: was like it's really horrible, really horrible, because he had

734
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 2: this thing. He just said, look, just do what you do.

735
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 2: Just don't call me. Remember there's six hours difference, five

736
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 2: hours differences during England and London and New York. Don't

737
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 2: call me at night because I'm trying to sleep, because

738
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 2: I didn't think about the time difference, you know. So

739
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:52,320
Speaker 2: but he said, look, just do what you do and

740
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 2: if it's okay with you, I'll try to put you

741
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 2: in very special places. If you approve of it, I

742
00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 2: agree with it. And that was the only managerial thing

743
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:00,439
Speaker 2: was said.

744
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:07,280
Speaker 1: So you make a number of albums for Vanguard, ultimately six.

745
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,319
Speaker 1: It supports your touring in these varying cities. But can

746
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 1: you feel the momentum building or.

747
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 2: What was it like? Well, I don't know. Show business

748
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 2: ever was my thing, you know, as my record sales

749
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 2: will a test. I mean I've never been. I think

750
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 2: my main interest is writing, always exploring my mindset is

751
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 2: I was just I was in a dugout canoe somewhere

752
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 2: at the Amazon River and I just was paddling upstream

753
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 2: to see what I could find. So, I mean, I

754
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 2: was always interested in the writing. And then of course

755
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 2: you document the stuff and make records and you experiment

756
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 2: with music and you fool around and stuff. But I

757
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 2: guess the momentum was building. Yeah, things were happening, but

758
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 2: I didn't. I can't tell you anything about how much

759
00:44:59,320 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 2: I thought about it.

760
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 1: I'd you end up on Warner Brothers.

761
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 2: Oh, this friend of Philokes is uh Andy Wickham signed me?

762
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 2: And was that a good experience or bad experience? Well,

763
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 2: I think they gave me too much freedom, O the way.

764
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 2: One album I made in Nashville that was pretty good

765
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 2: and some good well they all had good songs. But

766
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 2: the other one in LA was kind of it was

767
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 2: kind of a big band extravaganza, and I didn't think

768
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:34,439
Speaker 2: it worked at all. I think there were some really

769
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 2: good songs in it, but it didn't really do that well.

770
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 2: And even Eve Babbis did the cover you know her

771
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 2: of course recently died. Yes, we were friends, and she

772
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 2: did she did a cover and uh and uh the

773
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 2: record didn't do very well. So Mo Austin said, look,

774
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:57,320
Speaker 2: I'm going to release you and hey, you can have

775
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:01,800
Speaker 2: the tapes, okay. And I'm living in Venice, and you know,

776
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,400
Speaker 2: I mean I have no sense of business at all.

777
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 2: I mean I think I think my dog has more

778
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 2: sense of business than I do. But I and then

779
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 2: Clive Davis came along and signed me from from Columbia Records.

780
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 1: Can you be a little bit more specific? How did

781
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 1: you connect with Clive Davis?

782
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:27,240
Speaker 2: I think, I think again it was like through Bobby

783
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:31,360
Speaker 2: Bobby Columbia. Again, it was both of these things happened

784
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 2: through Bobby.

785
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,919
Speaker 1: So you switched to Colombia and you make Blue River,

786
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 1: which is considered to be legendary and has some impact.

787
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:43,720
Speaker 1: Did you feel that on the inside.

788
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:47,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I knew there was a special, something

789
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 2: very special happened. I mean because it was kind of

790
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:52,399
Speaker 2: taped together in a way. I mean, forgive the pun,

791
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:55,399
Speaker 2: but because I did some of the stuff. I did

792
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 2: one track with Roy Halley and San Francisco. I did

793
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 2: one track New York at Columbia Studios. I did two

794
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,319
Speaker 2: tracks at Wally Hyder's in LA I did the rest

795
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 2: the other five tracks in Nashville, and somehow the guy

796
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:12,319
Speaker 2: put it together. It sounded like it was all done.

797
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 2: I don't know how it happened. This was like something

798
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 2: that this is mono from having or something. I don't

799
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 2: know how it happened. And then there you go. You

800
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 2: got a thing that's like more than some of its parts.

801
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:27,840
Speaker 2: I mean, the sum is greater than the you know,

802
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 2: than the parts.

803
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:36,360
Speaker 1: Gestalt And how did you end up moving from Columbia

804
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 1: day Arista.

805
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 2: Well, my second album for Columbia got lost, I think

806
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 2: on purpose, because when I was making the album, Clive

807
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 2: got fired. People all over Columbia Records was crawling with

808
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 2: FBI people. There's like pay all accusations and drugs, and

809
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,759
Speaker 2: I mean the whole place was exploding. Clive had you know,

810
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:08,800
Speaker 2: Clyde was on the streets. And the people that Clive

811
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:11,439
Speaker 2: picked for me, who worked with me, they weren't into

812
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 2: I don't think they were so interested in losing their gigs.

813
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 2: They are very ambitious at Sony or Columbia, and I

814
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 2: think they held on to their jobs. Nobody wanted to

815
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 2: finish this album and it just got dropped. So we

816
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,840
Speaker 2: finished it in Nashville. We finished it, and then I

817
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:33,800
Speaker 2: got a call in New York from somebody from and naturally, oops,

818
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 2: we got to tell sorry, we think your album got lost. Well,

819
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 2: of course nothing gets lost. And years later a woman

820
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 2: named Amy Herriton started this research around the world at Columbia,

821
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 2: I mean searching all the vaults from Tokyo to Paris, London, Berlin,

822
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 2: everywhere there was vaults Columbia, they or you know CBS records.

823
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,279
Speaker 2: They searched us in and they turned it out, turned

824
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 2: up and they were in Nashville because a truck came

825
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 2: up with no identification went into the vaults on fifty

826
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:14,719
Speaker 2: first Street. A lot of the tapes of Columbia are

827
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,400
Speaker 2: like where IBM keeps stuff, and it's in a mountain

828
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:21,919
Speaker 2: up and near Woodstock, like a mountain. What's it called.

829
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 1: There's a name, Iron Mountain.

830
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 2: Yeah. So they got all but anyway, some stuff was put.

831
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 2: So they dumped all these tapes all over the floor

832
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 2: in the middle of the night with no signing and

833
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 2: no signing out, no nothing. Somebody just ran in from

834
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 2: a truck dumped the ta They saw them. Somebody saw them,

835
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 2: but nobody knew who they were. Dumped the tapes and

836
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 2: the next day a guy who worked there was carrying

837
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:54,120
Speaker 2: a whole armful of tapes that went over his head,

838
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 2: walked around the corner, slipped on the tapes that are

839
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:00,879
Speaker 2: ond the floor, broke his vertebrand, his back and he's

840
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:04,759
Speaker 2: been out of work ever since. Wow, and that's how

841
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 2: the tapes are found. So you go to.

842
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 1: Arista just when Clive Davis starts that company. You make

843
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 1: a couple of albums there. The record copany doesn't even

844
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:18,839
Speaker 1: have that many records, he puts out. Patty Smith puts

845
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:22,840
Speaker 1: out Eric Carmon, did you feel you got the proper

846
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:24,879
Speaker 1: attention you made the right records there?

847
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 2: Well, he was just starting up. I mean, you know

848
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 2: you make records, you don't. I mean, I don't know

849
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 2: if they were right. They felt that, you know, they

850
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 2: feel right when you're doing it, but that doesn't mean

851
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:36,359
Speaker 2: in hindsight they were right.

852
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 1: So ultimately you end up moving to Norway. How does

853
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:42,720
Speaker 1: that happen?

854
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 2: You meet somebody you know, like journalists? Well, I don't

855
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:51,319
Speaker 2: know about you, but sometimes a journalist will say, well,

856
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:53,239
Speaker 2: why did you, why did you? Why are you in

857
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 2: the Netherlands? You say a woman and there's never a

858
00:50:56,400 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 2: follow up. Course it's incredible in your case, I don't know,

859
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:02,480
Speaker 2: I can't predict.

860
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:08,839
Speaker 1: So where'd you meet this woman. I think I met

861
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 1: her in I met her in Norway and you were

862
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:12,760
Speaker 1: there working.

863
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I met her return of concert, I met her.

864
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 1: And what had happened between you and Debbie at this point?

865
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 2: Oh, deb and Debbie and I had been separated for

866
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,840
Speaker 2: twenty years, but we still got together making Did you

867
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 2: ever see the movie the song.

868
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:34,319
Speaker 1: Poet, not the whole thing?

869
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 2: No? Well, if you watch the whole Thaniel, you understand more.

870
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:43,400
Speaker 1: Okay, And that's something you'd rather not speak about.

871
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 2: Well, I mean you know that's already on record. No,

872
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:53,200
Speaker 2: I mean you know it's there the story, okayage journalist. Man,

873
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:55,319
Speaker 2: it's I'm the one living the life and doing the art.

874
00:51:55,440 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 1: So okay, So you had you had a daughter? Was

875
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 1: that a big responsibility? And what she up to today?

876
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 2: She's a singer, and she's a yoga practitioner, and she

877
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 2: lives in Hawaii. She has a couple of kids, and

878
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 2: she's studying medicine. She's taking courses in medicine, and she's

879
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 2: become a quite serious about it.

880
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:33,520
Speaker 1: And what kind of relationship do you have with her?

881
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:38,319
Speaker 2: I don't know, you know, Bob, I don't know. I mean,

882
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 2: these questions are I think I don't want to talk

883
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:44,879
Speaker 2: about my private life and my relationships. I don't ask

884
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 2: you about yours.

885
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:49,359
Speaker 1: Well you could, but we don't have to go there.

886
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:51,759
Speaker 2: So was it about I mean, I'm very close. I

887
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 2: love her very much. We're very close. She's a great,

888
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:57,479
Speaker 2: very talented girl. She's on this album, this tribute album.

889
00:52:57,560 --> 00:52:59,399
Speaker 2: She sings a song. You can hear what she does.

890
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:01,400
Speaker 2: If you have an album, I don't know if you do.

891
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:03,239
Speaker 2: Somebody one too.

892
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:10,719
Speaker 1: It's on streaming services. So was it a big decision

893
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:14,319
Speaker 1: to move to Norway? Because Norway is not the I've

894
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:15,840
Speaker 1: been there a couple of times, but it's not the

895
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 1: epicenter of the music business.

896
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:19,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, but say, I never really felt I was in

897
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:26,600
Speaker 2: the music business, so that that didn't even I was

898
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:29,800
Speaker 2: mainly in the writing business in my so I didn't

899
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 2: think about that. And I wanted to go to Europe.

900
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 2: I wanted to poke around and see things in Europe

901
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:38,480
Speaker 2: and spend some time in Europe. So Norway is a

902
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:47,040
Speaker 2: good place to, you know, to move around from any place,

903
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:49,160
Speaker 2: any place in Europe's could you have you just have

904
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 2: a place. It's always a good place to leave and

905
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:55,400
Speaker 2: go to from Europe, you know, And I'd read a

906
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:59,279
Speaker 2: lot of I think a lot of the is my

907
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 2: early inspirations of stuff were European. I think, you know

908
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 2: Rambo Bolt of the poets I read and Russian writers

909
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 2: I never got to rush with. I can't go, No,

910
00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:16,319
Speaker 2: they just napped this guy from the Wall Street RAI

911
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 2: very unsafe place to go. But yeah, so I got

912
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:27,480
Speaker 2: to see Europe and I got to see things that

913
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:29,239
Speaker 2: I wanted to see. But I mean New York was

914
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:33,719
Speaker 2: always you know, I think it's always in your soul.

915
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:37,399
Speaker 2: I mean you I was thinking about New York City,

916
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 2: you know, the walking down the street, and it's the

917
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:42,839
Speaker 2: same as it was ten years ago, fifteen years ago,

918
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:45,839
Speaker 2: twenty years ago, thirty, The rhythm of the streets, the pace,

919
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 2: the walking, I mean, it's it's just always the same.

920
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:51,759
Speaker 2: That's the thing about New York that I love. It

921
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 2: just will never change. As long as there's street lights

922
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 2: and as long as there's you know, traffic, the pace,

923
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:05,800
Speaker 2: the walking pace, it's like it epitomizes New York and

924
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:09,239
Speaker 2: that stays with me. And I guess, I guess you

925
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:11,440
Speaker 2: really are in New York. Or if you think about

926
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:13,239
Speaker 2: how the Yankees did me, you go to sleep at

927
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:13,920
Speaker 2: night in this chair?

928
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:17,319
Speaker 1: How often do you get to New York.

929
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 2: I'm going on a couple of weeks. I'm recording, finishing

930
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 2: an album that I started a few weeks. I'm doing

931
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:31,520
Speaker 2: some shows. I'm doing one out at mccabs. Maybe I'll

932
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 2: see you there, right, And.

933
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:39,800
Speaker 1: How about financially? You move to you know, Oslo or

934
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:43,520
Speaker 1: wherever you were in Norway? How does it work financially?

935
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:45,799
Speaker 1: Do you have enough money from the music business where

936
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:46,680
Speaker 1: you're playing gigs?

937
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:53,480
Speaker 2: Well, I mean you get royalties, you play good. I

938
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:56,359
Speaker 2: mean the royalties aren't so great now and then it's

939
00:55:56,400 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 2: so good. They kind of drastically fell. I mean, even

940
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 2: with Bob Dylan singing my song on three records, it's

941
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:12,279
Speaker 2: still that he ain't making me any money. But yeah,

942
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 2: I mean there's enough. You play, you get some royalties.

943
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:21,120
Speaker 2: You know, there's enough, and you can survive money. I've

944
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:27,320
Speaker 2: never I don't think about it too much. So what

945
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:27,840
Speaker 2: was it like?

946
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:30,320
Speaker 1: Living in Norway is supposed to living in the US.

947
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:37,759
Speaker 2: Safer. It's safer. They got to they have a healthcare sist.

948
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:45,480
Speaker 2: Nobody's walking around with guns. I mean, you know, man,

949
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:49,360
Speaker 2: in like fourteenth States, you can walk around with guns

950
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 2: concealed or or not concealed without a permit handguns. How

951
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:56,719
Speaker 2: do you feel about that?

952
00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:02,359
Speaker 1: I feel pretty bad. And uh, you know, the world

953
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:06,080
Speaker 1: situation in light of what's going on not only in

954
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:10,480
Speaker 1: Hungry but China and Israel, and then you have Trump,

955
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:13,920
Speaker 1: it's it's a scary time. Something I've never experienced in

956
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:14,600
Speaker 1: my lifetime.

957
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's the hour of the autocrats. It's uh,

958
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:26,200
Speaker 2: it's like something you didn't think, what ever happened? I mean,

959
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:31,160
Speaker 2: but it is happening. I mean, Holland has a right

960
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:35,240
Speaker 2: wing government. I mean it's not anything nobody's walking around

961
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:39,160
Speaker 2: doing saying it Kyle Hitler or anything like that. I mean,

962
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:41,960
Speaker 2: but it's a right wing government. It's very pro business.

963
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:45,960
Speaker 2: They're not really into helping anybody. They're into taking stuff

964
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:51,400
Speaker 2: away if they can. It's not it's not as bad

965
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:56,840
Speaker 2: as the States. I mean the States. The States are

966
00:57:56,840 --> 00:58:00,880
Speaker 2: the paradigm of oh, you can't all, you don't get

967
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:01,560
Speaker 2: or can't cut.

968
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:03,920
Speaker 1: Can you amplify that a little bit.

969
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:07,240
Speaker 2: I'm saying the States they're they're the paradom. You know,

970
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:12,960
Speaker 2: They're the ones representing a country, social system, cultures of

971
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 2: all the things you can't get and are not protected

972
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:24,200
Speaker 2: or not covered. I mean like health care, healthcare, education.

973
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:28,720
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a country that doesn't realize that healthcare

974
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:32,480
Speaker 2: and education are the main ingredients in the recipe for

975
00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:36,080
Speaker 2: the future. For a country, you have to have healthy

976
00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 2: people who are educated and know things to carry out

977
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:42,640
Speaker 2: to carry the torch. But it's always been an elite,

978
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:48,680
Speaker 2: you know, with it's an elitist. I mean, it's not

979
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:51,080
Speaker 2: quite as elitist as England. You know, where the minute,

980
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 2: the minute of the second you open your mouth, they

981
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:55,880
Speaker 2: know what class you're coming from. You know, just by

982
00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:59,480
Speaker 2: the first word you say. They can pinpoint you. You know,

983
00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:02,920
Speaker 2: just just by the sound of the words you use,

984
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 2: like somebody from Brooklyn or somebody from Queens. There's somebody

985
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 2: from you know, in England, there's there's a there's a

986
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:15,960
Speaker 2: whole hierarchy of language, of elocution. So I don't know,

987
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 2: Norway's nice. I mean Europe's nice. It's a europe is people.

988
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:26,160
Speaker 2: They complain about the taxes, but people are driving tesla's

989
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:28,120
Speaker 2: around here. People are driving, I mean, you know, it's

990
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:32,640
Speaker 2: people are many people are doing fine, but of course

991
00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:35,760
Speaker 2: there are some people who aren't. But that's true of everywhere.

992
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:40,120
Speaker 1: So you had a number of kids in Oslo. What

993
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:40,800
Speaker 1: are they up to?

994
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 2: One's a singer, she's on the album named Signa. You

995
00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:54,680
Speaker 2: can hear her on the Spotify. One's a painter. That

996
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:57,200
Speaker 2: there's a photographer, and the other one's a school teacher.

997
00:59:59,160 --> 00:59:59,960
Speaker 1: And how old are they?

998
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:08,440
Speaker 2: Man? Now, I got to think they range from thirty

999
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:11,800
Speaker 2: five to an early late twenties.

1000
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:17,880
Speaker 1: And so the mother of those children was an artist herself. Yeah,

1001
01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:20,640
Speaker 1: of some renowned correct.

1002
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:24,840
Speaker 2: Yep, she is. She's she's a famous painter and artist

1003
01:00:24,880 --> 01:00:30,440
Speaker 2: in Norway and scount Avia, Sweden and Denmark somewhat too.

1004
01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:34,320
Speaker 1: And how did it end with her? Such you met

1005
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:36,520
Speaker 1: a new woman and you're now living in the Netherlands.

1006
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:41,360
Speaker 2: Read my book Bomb read my book.

1007
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 1: So how long you been living in the Netherlands.

1008
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:56,320
Speaker 2: I've been here about twenty years. I mean I met

1009
01:00:56,600 --> 01:01:01,240
Speaker 2: I met my wife in Switzerland anger and she we

1010
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:05,080
Speaker 2: joke and sometimes on stage. She's the one who said

1011
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:06,880
Speaker 2: it took her five years to get her pH d.

1012
01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:10,120
Speaker 2: She says, well, what are you doing here in Switzerland?

1013
01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:13,040
Speaker 2: I said, well, I'm here to count my money. And

1014
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:17,000
Speaker 2: she she tells people, well, and it took him a

1015
01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:22,800
Speaker 2: very long time because it was all in coins. It

1016
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:26,720
Speaker 2: was all in coins. I'm writing, I'm writing a song

1017
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:30,360
Speaker 2: about this now actually yeah. But and she's a musician

1018
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:33,360
Speaker 2: and she sings, and she made an album herself called

1019
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:37,960
Speaker 2: Fallen angel and we were in Riterda and we gave

1020
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 2: a copy to Bob to do them. Three months later

1021
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:43,560
Speaker 2: an album came out called Fallen Angels. Now, I wonder

1022
01:01:44,760 --> 01:01:46,200
Speaker 2: if there's any connection.

1023
01:01:48,240 --> 01:01:50,240
Speaker 1: When it was the last time you connected with Bob.

1024
01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:54,520
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know. He he must like me, because

1025
01:01:54,560 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 2: you know, they were great giving me the you know,

1026
01:01:56,720 --> 01:01:59,440
Speaker 2: for the song for this tribute album, you know, give

1027
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:02,280
Speaker 2: me all the I mean, they just they just handled

1028
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:06,000
Speaker 2: it over on a silver platter, him and his manager.

1029
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:10,439
Speaker 2: They were wonderful in terms of well, I was doing

1030
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:13,040
Speaker 2: this album about there's I think there's a part of

1031
01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:15,080
Speaker 2: my life you don't know much about. But I made

1032
01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:18,520
Speaker 2: a few albums about writers about Heinriz Bull, the writer,

1033
01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:23,280
Speaker 2: the Nobil Prize German writer Lord Byron and Albert Camu

1034
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:29,800
Speaker 2: three albums of writers. They were done in Germany and

1035
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:33,360
Speaker 2: I was doing stuff on Camu and I know the

1036
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:35,840
Speaker 2: Jefs sent stuff to doing about the stuff I was

1037
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:39,720
Speaker 2: doing with that the you know, the lyrics. I didn't

1038
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:41,600
Speaker 2: ask him to do it. I didn't even it wasn't

1039
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:44,360
Speaker 2: intended for him, but I was thinking Jesus is going

1040
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:47,760
Speaker 2: to show up in his next record or something. So

1041
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:49,400
Speaker 2: I mean, I haven't but I haven't been. I have

1042
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:51,200
Speaker 2: been in touch with it. I haven't been in touch

1043
01:02:51,240 --> 01:02:56,920
Speaker 2: with them in a while. Actually, well, I mean we went. Yeah,

1044
01:02:56,960 --> 01:02:59,120
Speaker 2: it's been a while. But he's great to talk to

1045
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:03,120
Speaker 2: because he loves and he loves Literturney. He loves them.

1046
01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:08,960
Speaker 2: He's very curious. The good beauty of him is he's

1047
01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:13,320
Speaker 2: very curious about stuff. So I mean, I feel a

1048
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:14,200
Speaker 2: kinship with him.

1049
01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:19,640
Speaker 1: When you were in Norway, you formed a group with

1050
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:22,920
Speaker 1: Rick Danko of the band and a local musician. How

1051
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:23,920
Speaker 1: did that come together?

1052
01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:31,800
Speaker 2: I saw Rick in New York and Rick said, hey, man,

1053
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:35,120
Speaker 2: come and sing on the show. I sang on a show.

1054
01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:38,200
Speaker 2: It was with the Room full of Blues, him in

1055
01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:40,520
Speaker 2: the room full of blues. Yeah, of course, And I

1056
01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:42,880
Speaker 2: sang on a show and he said, hey, come up

1057
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:46,640
Speaker 2: to Woodstock, Let's write some stuff, let's do something. And

1058
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:48,520
Speaker 2: so I went up to Woodstock for a few days.

1059
01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:50,720
Speaker 2: I didn't even bring a spare pair of underwear. And

1060
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:55,600
Speaker 2: I ended up there for two weeks, maybe more three weeks.

1061
01:03:56,400 --> 01:04:00,560
Speaker 2: I went, his wife got me underwear, got me shirts.

1062
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:02,200
Speaker 2: I went and I bought a jacket. I mean, I

1063
01:04:02,360 --> 01:04:05,000
Speaker 2: just I was just going up for a couple of days.

1064
01:04:06,040 --> 01:04:08,560
Speaker 2: And then we started working together. And then I knew

1065
01:04:08,560 --> 01:04:13,200
Speaker 2: this guy Yonis fell in North Norway and I had

1066
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:18,520
Speaker 2: done some over some this album stages that you know, dismissing.

1067
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:24,840
Speaker 2: It was an album that got lost in Columbia and

1068
01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:29,600
Speaker 2: it got found. I told you it got found. I

1069
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:34,040
Speaker 2: don't know or maybe you know this. And after they

1070
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:36,200
Speaker 2: searched all over the place, that showed up on the

1071
01:04:36,440 --> 01:04:42,920
Speaker 2: floor of a tapefault. So we did some bonus tracks

1072
01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:45,720
Speaker 2: for the CD, and Rick arranged the gig for me,

1073
01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:48,080
Speaker 2: and Rick played on it, and Jonas came in from

1074
01:04:48,120 --> 01:04:53,800
Speaker 2: Norway and sang a little. Willie Nile did some singing.

1075
01:04:56,080 --> 01:04:58,280
Speaker 2: I think Garth Hudson was a jumped. Anyway, we went

1076
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:01,280
Speaker 2: up to Woodstock and Rick arranged his gig. He got

1077
01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:03,360
Speaker 2: an amp and he got Mike's and stuff at this

1078
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:09,640
Speaker 2: little place and what was it called the Woodstock the

1079
01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:13,640
Speaker 2: Cafe Tinker Street Cafe, very famous place. So he did

1080
01:05:13,720 --> 01:05:16,720
Speaker 2: this gig and Jonas had been drinking beer all day,

1081
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:22,320
Speaker 2: sitting in the audience. I'm playing singing, Rick's playing bass, saying,

1082
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:26,160
Speaker 2: and we did the song called Blue River, and Jonas

1083
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:28,800
Speaker 2: just jumps up and starts singing a third part, and

1084
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:31,560
Speaker 2: the whole place just exploded. It was like the Beatles

1085
01:05:31,680 --> 01:05:34,160
Speaker 2: or something. I don't know, it was like, and the

1086
01:05:34,240 --> 01:05:39,720
Speaker 2: whole roof just splintered. So we said, hey, wait a minute.

1087
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:42,280
Speaker 2: Mick Ronson was there too. Mick was playing some slide

1088
01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:49,760
Speaker 2: and the whole place just everybody went whoa, all of us,

1089
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:53,080
Speaker 2: including us. So we started this little group and made

1090
01:05:53,080 --> 01:05:54,720
Speaker 2: a couple of records and people loved it.

1091
01:05:56,280 --> 01:05:58,320
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's on the first record. You have

1092
01:05:58,400 --> 01:06:02,840
Speaker 1: a definitive version of that song Twilight from the band.

1093
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:04,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fixt time.

1094
01:06:06,520 --> 01:06:12,520
Speaker 1: So during this period when you leave the state you

1095
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:17,480
Speaker 1: live in Norway, live in Netherlands, you're obviously searching, going

1096
01:06:17,560 --> 01:06:22,600
Speaker 1: to Europe, learning things, studying. Did you always view yourself

1097
01:06:22,680 --> 01:06:25,400
Speaker 1: as a musician, recording artist or did you think that

1098
01:06:25,600 --> 01:06:28,480
Speaker 1: part of your life was done and then you would return.

1099
01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:29,880
Speaker 1: What was going through your mind?

1100
01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:33,720
Speaker 2: You know, I got to tell you something, thinking is

1101
01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:38,280
Speaker 2: the Antichrist of art. I don't think about those things.

1102
01:06:40,160 --> 01:06:43,840
Speaker 1: Okay, there seems to be somewhat of a renaissance now

1103
01:06:44,440 --> 01:06:47,440
Speaker 1: you talk about the tribute to album. We have the

1104
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:52,080
Speaker 1: news song danger Land. Is this conscious like, Okay, I

1105
01:06:52,200 --> 01:06:54,680
Speaker 1: want to get back in the game, get some attention.

1106
01:06:56,360 --> 01:06:59,720
Speaker 2: I don't think that way, Bun. Maybe I'll tell you.

1107
01:07:00,320 --> 01:07:02,920
Speaker 2: I'll give you a little clue. When it comes to writing,

1108
01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:06,880
Speaker 2: I don't even know. I don't even know what I'm doing.

1109
01:07:06,920 --> 01:07:09,920
Speaker 2: I mean, I think I'm probably like an idiots avants.

1110
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:14,680
Speaker 2: The songs just basically visit me and I just sit

1111
01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:16,720
Speaker 2: with a pen and I just I'm a scenographer. I

1112
01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:19,880
Speaker 2: just take it down. They're already there. They just come

1113
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:22,400
Speaker 2: through me and I write them down. I don't think

1114
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 2: about it. I don't plan it, I don't craft it out,

1115
01:07:25,520 --> 01:07:29,480
Speaker 2: I don't. It just goes through my fingers and I

1116
01:07:29,560 --> 01:07:34,480
Speaker 2: write it down. There's like visitations or something. They come

1117
01:07:34,520 --> 01:07:38,240
Speaker 2: from the air. And I think that's about pretty much

1118
01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:42,160
Speaker 2: sums up for everything that in terms of how I operate.

1119
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:46,200
Speaker 1: How did the tribute album come together?

1120
01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:50,840
Speaker 2: This guy had this idea he wanted to do it,

1121
01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:54,400
Speaker 2: and so we contacted people and I had ideas about

1122
01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:56,400
Speaker 2: who could do what songs? Have you heard it?

1123
01:07:57,560 --> 01:07:57,760
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1124
01:07:59,840 --> 01:08:03,760
Speaker 2: I had an idea who could do what? And and

1125
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:08,400
Speaker 2: there were people were very cooperative and nice and they

1126
01:08:08,840 --> 01:08:11,240
Speaker 2: recorded the songs and I think they I think I

1127
01:08:11,360 --> 01:08:13,440
Speaker 2: did a pretty good job eight with an R and

1128
01:08:13,560 --> 01:08:17,560
Speaker 2: the thing because they liked what they they wanted to

1129
01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:21,759
Speaker 2: do the songs. We had a couple, you know something

1130
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:24,479
Speaker 2: you know I was hoping to get, you know, we

1131
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:28,719
Speaker 2: were thinking about Jackson Brown and UH and James Taylor

1132
01:08:28,760 --> 01:08:30,439
Speaker 2: on a song that James and I had worked on

1133
01:08:30,600 --> 01:08:34,640
Speaker 2: once years ago and this was before the pandemic and

1134
01:08:34,680 --> 01:08:37,200
Speaker 2: then he was going on tour this kind of thing

1135
01:08:38,120 --> 01:08:42,320
Speaker 2: and Jackson, I don't know, it just got nothing. Ever

1136
01:08:42,400 --> 01:08:44,400
Speaker 2: came to marry Go Shay was going to do something.

1137
01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:47,600
Speaker 2: You know, she got money for the record and she

1138
01:08:47,840 --> 01:08:50,200
Speaker 2: had this song that she wanted that song, another song,

1139
01:08:50,479 --> 01:08:53,559
Speaker 2: but she ended up not doing it. So I mean,

1140
01:08:53,920 --> 01:08:56,320
Speaker 2: maybe there's some kind of like you got to have

1141
01:08:56,400 --> 01:08:58,320
Speaker 2: a certain star pouper, Maybe you have to be of

1142
01:08:58,439 --> 01:09:03,360
Speaker 2: a certain kind of echelons thing to say, Oh, Paul mccartti,

1143
01:09:03,400 --> 01:09:06,120
Speaker 2: you be on my record, and like if you've had

1144
01:09:06,200 --> 01:09:09,720
Speaker 2: three number one hits, they might say yes. So you know,

1145
01:09:09,880 --> 01:09:12,800
Speaker 2: there might be a subtext or a hidden story of

1146
01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:16,200
Speaker 2: this thing. You know what I'm saying to get people

1147
01:09:16,360 --> 01:09:18,719
Speaker 2: to be to do your songs.

1148
01:09:20,160 --> 01:09:22,320
Speaker 1: Oh, it's a whole political thing. And I think you

1149
01:09:22,400 --> 01:09:23,840
Speaker 1: have a pretty good angle on it.

1150
01:09:24,880 --> 01:09:28,000
Speaker 2: I mean I wrote like Graham, I wrote Graham on

1151
01:09:28,240 --> 01:09:29,280
Speaker 2: Nash and he just said no.

1152
01:09:31,320 --> 01:09:33,439
Speaker 1: Well, at least, you know, a lot of times, a

1153
01:09:33,479 --> 01:09:35,880
Speaker 1: lot of times you can't even hear from people. You know,

1154
01:09:35,960 --> 01:09:38,080
Speaker 1: they figure if you don't hear from them, that means no.

1155
01:09:38,600 --> 01:09:40,760
Speaker 2: Well, you know whatever. But I mean the people who

1156
01:09:40,800 --> 01:09:42,679
Speaker 2: did it, I think they put their hearts and souls

1157
01:09:42,720 --> 01:09:45,280
Speaker 2: onto it, and I think they did a beautiful, beautiful

1158
01:09:45,360 --> 01:09:48,479
Speaker 2: and Bob was Dylan was the first to get on board.

1159
01:09:50,720 --> 01:09:57,240
Speaker 1: So Joni Mitchell credits you with learning about open tunings.

1160
01:09:57,840 --> 01:10:00,599
Speaker 1: How did you start experimenting with open tunings?

1161
01:10:01,760 --> 01:10:06,560
Speaker 2: You're in these blues guys down in the village, you know,

1162
01:10:06,680 --> 01:10:09,599
Speaker 2: like like like Fred McDowell, he's he plays slide guitar.

1163
01:10:10,800 --> 01:10:15,160
Speaker 2: Booka White does tunings, you know. I you know, I

1164
01:10:15,240 --> 01:10:19,800
Speaker 2: got interested in tunings. And so I was at her

1165
01:10:19,840 --> 01:10:23,040
Speaker 2: house in Detroit, she was living there with her husband,

1166
01:10:23,120 --> 01:10:27,880
Speaker 2: and she did just fed up with doing normal to me,

1167
01:10:28,080 --> 01:10:31,439
Speaker 2: she hated it playing c's and acts and she's And

1168
01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:36,559
Speaker 2: I understood it because it's you know, tunings are more trancy,

1169
01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:41,639
Speaker 2: they're more there's a fluidity to them. You know, it's

1170
01:10:42,920 --> 01:10:50,599
Speaker 2: more shall I say, more Arabic, because it's more, it's

1171
01:10:50,720 --> 01:10:55,439
Speaker 2: less defined in terms of like chords using straight chords.

1172
01:10:56,479 --> 01:11:00,320
Speaker 2: And she so taught her I think etuning E or

1173
01:11:00,400 --> 01:11:05,760
Speaker 2: T and she tuning and she loved it. And I

1174
01:11:05,840 --> 01:11:08,200
Speaker 2: think she told me she went on. She's probably made.

1175
01:11:08,720 --> 01:11:11,720
Speaker 2: She made about one hundred and two tunings. One night

1176
01:11:11,800 --> 01:11:14,760
Speaker 2: on the phone. She played me was the place she

1177
01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:17,400
Speaker 2: played me about fourteen tunings she did. I mean I

1178
01:11:17,520 --> 01:11:20,439
Speaker 2: was just sitting and she even played the tunings of

1179
01:11:20,520 --> 01:11:26,560
Speaker 2: Keith Richards Uses. It probably got from her, you know,

1180
01:11:26,840 --> 01:11:29,880
Speaker 2: she got you got it from her, So she did.

1181
01:11:30,400 --> 01:11:32,320
Speaker 2: It was phenomenal what she did. She took off. It

1182
01:11:32,439 --> 01:11:34,280
Speaker 2: took off. And I mean if she hadn't learned it

1183
01:11:34,320 --> 01:11:36,120
Speaker 2: from me, she would have learned it from somebody else.

1184
01:11:36,840 --> 01:11:41,120
Speaker 2: But I think maybe I saved her a little time now.

1185
01:11:41,200 --> 01:11:44,160
Speaker 1: Needless to say, Joni Mitchell, not only being a great artist,

1186
01:11:44,200 --> 01:11:48,439
Speaker 1: has gotten a great amount of acclaim anybody from that era,

1187
01:11:49,200 --> 01:11:52,880
Speaker 1: who you feel needs recognition or music needs to be

1188
01:11:53,000 --> 01:11:56,200
Speaker 1: heard today, who's fallen off the radar to a degree

1189
01:11:56,680 --> 01:11:59,280
Speaker 1: besides myself, besides yourself.

1190
01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:09,040
Speaker 2: Beside as myself, Well, I mean, you know, we're in

1191
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:10,960
Speaker 2: the danger zone now. I mean a lot of people

1192
01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:17,920
Speaker 2: aren't alonger with us. I'm trying to think, like, like,

1193
01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:20,280
Speaker 2: what do you can be? Could you make it? Could

1194
01:12:20,320 --> 01:12:21,880
Speaker 2: you be a little clearer about.

1195
01:12:21,640 --> 01:12:24,560
Speaker 1: That when you say, well, you know Tim hard in

1196
01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:27,080
Speaker 1: a couple of his songs, if I were a carpenter,

1197
01:12:27,240 --> 01:12:30,080
Speaker 1: a couple of things are remembered, but he's fading into

1198
01:12:30,439 --> 01:12:34,920
Speaker 1: UH history. You know, you talk about Mississippi, Fred McDowell.

1199
01:12:35,000 --> 01:12:37,720
Speaker 1: These are people if you live through the era, you're

1200
01:12:37,760 --> 01:12:41,280
Speaker 1: aware of, but younger generations are not aware of a

1201
01:12:41,360 --> 01:12:43,960
Speaker 1: lot of these UH performers.

1202
01:12:44,920 --> 01:12:46,880
Speaker 2: Well, they all had their own music, you know. They

1203
01:12:46,920 --> 01:12:49,760
Speaker 2: are things that speak to them that you know, that

1204
01:12:50,000 --> 01:12:53,200
Speaker 2: express what they're feeling. And that's just that's how things

1205
01:12:53,280 --> 01:12:59,400
Speaker 2: have been since you know Mozart before However, that said Mozart,

1206
01:13:00,479 --> 01:13:02,720
Speaker 2: some of these things that leak through the ages, you know,

1207
01:13:02,880 --> 01:13:06,439
Speaker 2: like especially in the classical world and to some extent

1208
01:13:06,520 --> 01:13:08,559
Speaker 2: in the jazz world. I've been listening to a lot

1209
01:13:08,640 --> 01:13:12,720
Speaker 2: to Oscar Peterson lately, you know, and uh Canadian guy

1210
01:13:12,800 --> 01:13:18,160
Speaker 2: from Montreal phenomenal. But I'm I think, you know, I

1211
01:13:18,400 --> 01:13:22,200
Speaker 2: like people like Fred Neil. He's probably the greatest white

1212
01:13:22,280 --> 01:13:26,200
Speaker 2: singer there ever was, you know, outside of like George

1213
01:13:26,280 --> 01:13:30,880
Speaker 2: Jones and like Sinatra and Mat Papado to or somebody

1214
01:13:31,000 --> 01:13:35,760
Speaker 2: like that, those people, you know, but bred Neil was great.

1215
01:13:35,920 --> 01:13:38,759
Speaker 2: I think Tim Harden is great. He wrote these beautiful songs.

1216
01:13:42,479 --> 01:13:48,240
Speaker 2: All the blues people, you know, I think they're always pertinent,

1217
01:13:48,280 --> 01:13:52,519
Speaker 2: They're always significant, and they'll never go away. And like

1218
01:13:52,600 --> 01:13:54,840
Speaker 2: the jazz people, I mean, you know, Miles will always

1219
01:13:54,880 --> 01:13:57,360
Speaker 2: be with us, called Trane, you know, all these people

1220
01:13:57,439 --> 01:14:00,479
Speaker 2: will be with us. So I mean I'm a funny

1221
01:14:00,479 --> 01:14:02,679
Speaker 2: guy to ask, because I've listened to all this old

1222
01:14:03,080 --> 01:14:06,760
Speaker 2: you know. I listened to Fat Swaller, and I listened

1223
01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:09,680
Speaker 2: to you know, real Father Heinz, And I mean I

1224
01:14:09,840 --> 01:14:12,960
Speaker 2: listened to all this stuff all the time. So I mean,

1225
01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:15,759
Speaker 2: I'm not of this world. I'm not of this time zone.

1226
01:14:17,200 --> 01:14:19,000
Speaker 2: But I mean there's a lot of people that you know,

1227
01:14:19,400 --> 01:14:21,599
Speaker 2: probably deserve to be heard more.

1228
01:14:21,520 --> 01:14:26,479
Speaker 1: Of, you know, And Thirsty Boots ended up being covered

1229
01:14:26,640 --> 01:14:31,320
Speaker 1: by many artists Bob Dylan, Judy Collins, etcetera. Was that

1230
01:14:31,479 --> 01:14:34,559
Speaker 1: just serendipitous that all of a sudden you found out

1231
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:36,880
Speaker 1: they were recording your songs? Or do you know how

1232
01:14:36,960 --> 01:14:37,559
Speaker 1: they ended.

1233
01:14:37,520 --> 01:14:40,560
Speaker 2: Up doing it? No idea, They just did it. I

1234
01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:43,960
Speaker 2: had no idea one day you turned on the radio

1235
01:14:44,120 --> 01:14:48,879
Speaker 2: or something. There it is you never know in advance.

1236
01:14:50,720 --> 01:14:53,200
Speaker 2: And the thing with the Dylan thing was very strange.

1237
01:14:53,240 --> 01:14:57,559
Speaker 2: I mean, al Cooper kind of inted at something. He said, yeah,

1238
01:14:57,640 --> 01:14:59,519
Speaker 2: I think he did this. Somebody thought it sounded too

1239
01:14:59,600 --> 01:15:02,960
Speaker 2: much like you, al Cooper. You told me this once

1240
01:15:03,560 --> 01:15:06,760
Speaker 2: years ago. I never gave it any thought. But then

1241
01:15:06,840 --> 01:15:10,360
Speaker 2: he recorded like for It was on a one version,

1242
01:15:10,439 --> 01:15:15,679
Speaker 2: a record day version, one was on another portraits, another

1243
01:15:16,240 --> 01:15:20,720
Speaker 2: support one, an album, another version. And then when I

1244
01:15:20,800 --> 01:15:23,599
Speaker 2: talked to Jeff Rosen and as manager, he came up

1245
01:15:23,640 --> 01:15:28,160
Speaker 2: with another version that was completely beautiful, that was just

1246
01:15:28,280 --> 01:15:31,840
Speaker 2: sitting there and gave it to us and we put

1247
01:15:31,920 --> 01:15:33,920
Speaker 2: Tony Garnier out of you know, the basse player from

1248
01:15:33,920 --> 01:15:38,720
Speaker 2: his band, Tony, and it came out beautifully. Everybody loved it.

1249
01:15:40,240 --> 01:15:42,280
Speaker 2: But I don't you don't know. I mean, it's Judy.

1250
01:15:42,360 --> 01:15:44,840
Speaker 2: I didn't know about her I didn't know. Sometimes I

1251
01:15:44,960 --> 01:15:47,640
Speaker 2: hear about a recording I never knew about from Australia,

1252
01:15:47,880 --> 01:15:51,760
Speaker 2: from like Fancois Hardie. I didn't know she had recorded Violenceadahn.

1253
01:15:53,280 --> 01:15:55,479
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I know.

1254
01:15:55,600 --> 01:15:57,400
Speaker 2: You think I live in an igloo or something in

1255
01:15:57,479 --> 01:16:00,080
Speaker 2: a bubble, but probably I do, But I don't. I

1256
01:16:00,120 --> 01:16:03,520
Speaker 2: don't really, I'm not always aware of the recordings.

1257
01:16:05,720 --> 01:16:11,840
Speaker 1: Now, you mentioned we're discussing that people who need more

1258
01:16:11,880 --> 01:16:16,880
Speaker 1: attention didn't get it. You mentioned yourself. So how do

1259
01:16:17,000 --> 01:16:20,040
Speaker 1: you feel about your place in the firmament in history

1260
01:16:20,880 --> 01:16:24,440
Speaker 1: and to what degree do you want more recognition?

1261
01:16:25,840 --> 01:16:29,479
Speaker 2: Well, I think I never had a hit record, you know.

1262
01:16:30,400 --> 01:16:32,240
Speaker 2: So I think if I'll tell you one thing, if

1263
01:16:32,240 --> 01:16:36,519
Speaker 2: you have a hit record, you can play state fairs. Now,

1264
01:16:36,560 --> 01:16:40,559
Speaker 2: you can play corporate parties. Maybe, I mean you can

1265
01:16:40,640 --> 01:16:46,880
Speaker 2: play you know, I mean having you only need one

1266
01:16:46,960 --> 01:16:49,160
Speaker 2: hit record, and I mean you can. And if people

1267
01:16:49,160 --> 01:16:51,280
Speaker 2: will follow they like that, they might if they look

1268
01:16:51,280 --> 01:16:53,400
Speaker 2: into your work, they might like other parts of your work,

1269
01:16:53,479 --> 01:16:56,479
Speaker 2: like in the case of Lou Read for example. You know,

1270
01:16:57,680 --> 01:17:00,240
Speaker 2: but with not having a hit it's kind of it's

1271
01:17:00,320 --> 01:17:03,400
Speaker 2: kind of heavy. It's like heavy lifting, you know, to

1272
01:17:03,520 --> 01:17:07,000
Speaker 2: try to get your stuff out there, and I accept that.

1273
01:17:07,080 --> 01:17:10,720
Speaker 2: I realized it's true. You can't do what can you do?

1274
01:17:12,160 --> 01:17:15,200
Speaker 2: So or even if you have somebody else get a

1275
01:17:15,280 --> 01:17:20,240
Speaker 2: hit of your song, that can help too. And I

1276
01:17:20,320 --> 01:17:22,560
Speaker 2: think I think the Blues Project had a hit on

1277
01:17:23,000 --> 01:17:24,519
Speaker 2: Violence of John. I think it was a top ten

1278
01:17:24,680 --> 01:17:27,640
Speaker 2: hit something like that. But I mean a little bit

1279
01:17:27,720 --> 01:17:31,439
Speaker 2: of it rubs off I was supposed. But so you

1280
01:17:31,640 --> 01:17:33,160
Speaker 2: just go and carry on and you do what you

1281
01:17:33,800 --> 01:17:36,160
Speaker 2: what you got into doing it for, and that's the writing.

1282
01:17:36,320 --> 01:17:40,120
Speaker 2: And you just soldier on and you know whatever may

1283
01:17:40,160 --> 01:17:43,160
Speaker 2: be will be, because I mean, I'm not going to

1284
01:17:43,200 --> 01:17:45,120
Speaker 2: sit down and try to write a pop hit. I

1285
01:17:45,160 --> 01:17:46,880
Speaker 2: would not. I never know how to do it in

1286
01:17:46,960 --> 01:17:47,599
Speaker 2: the first place.

1287
01:17:49,040 --> 01:17:51,479
Speaker 1: Did you ever get any pressure from Clive Davis to

1288
01:17:51,600 --> 01:17:52,360
Speaker 1: try to write a hit?

1289
01:17:52,960 --> 01:17:57,160
Speaker 2: No, Clive never said a word. You just let me

1290
01:17:57,240 --> 01:18:00,040
Speaker 2: do what I wanted to do. It was great. We

1291
01:18:00,120 --> 01:18:02,320
Speaker 2: were surprised. We invited me. We flew over for his

1292
01:18:02,439 --> 01:18:07,920
Speaker 2: birthday party. He turned ninety years old. He had this

1293
01:18:08,040 --> 01:18:12,200
Speaker 2: big party at Chipriani's in New York and Wall Street.

1294
01:18:13,760 --> 01:18:17,240
Speaker 2: So we ang and I fly over and we're saying,

1295
01:18:17,240 --> 01:18:19,439
Speaker 2: all right, we'll probably end up under a balcony or

1296
01:18:19,520 --> 01:18:23,120
Speaker 2: something or by a pillar. So we walk in and

1297
01:18:24,320 --> 01:18:28,920
Speaker 2: I'm not performing or anything. And we walk into the

1298
01:18:29,040 --> 01:18:31,800
Speaker 2: place and somebody comes with a little name tag, and

1299
01:18:31,920 --> 01:18:34,160
Speaker 2: we were at the door. They wouldn't let Stevie vanzanin.

1300
01:18:34,680 --> 01:18:37,280
Speaker 2: They wouldn't let him into the party because he didn't

1301
01:18:37,280 --> 01:18:40,599
Speaker 2: have any ID, and I mean, and so I'm standing

1302
01:18:40,640 --> 01:18:42,840
Speaker 2: there not even knowing him, arguing with the guy at

1303
01:18:42,840 --> 01:18:45,240
Speaker 2: the door, saying, wait a minute, he's you know, such

1304
01:18:45,280 --> 01:18:47,439
Speaker 2: and such and so and so, and they finally let

1305
01:18:47,520 --> 01:18:52,799
Speaker 2: him in, so we got him. But so anyway, somebody

1306
01:18:52,880 --> 01:18:55,800
Speaker 2: comes with a name tag in a suit and we

1307
01:18:56,080 --> 01:18:59,680
Speaker 2: rushes through this huge place with all these round tables. Man,

1308
01:19:00,800 --> 01:19:03,000
Speaker 2: and we go right to the front of the stage.

1309
01:19:04,040 --> 01:19:07,679
Speaker 2: Put us down, and we're sitting down, and like Judy

1310
01:19:07,800 --> 01:19:11,679
Speaker 2: Cowns is on the right, Alicia Keys is on the left,

1311
01:19:12,840 --> 01:19:16,360
Speaker 2: Patti Smith is in front, art Guardfuncle and Robert de Niro.

1312
01:19:17,200 --> 01:19:19,840
Speaker 2: This is the table we're sitting at. And we're thinking,

1313
01:19:20,120 --> 01:19:21,960
Speaker 2: oh shit, man, we're going to probably end up, you know,

1314
01:19:22,439 --> 01:19:25,400
Speaker 2: eating peanut but or sandwiches or something by some pillar.

1315
01:19:25,520 --> 01:19:28,120
Speaker 2: But how nice it is of Clive to advise us.

1316
01:19:28,920 --> 01:19:30,599
Speaker 2: They Clive, he put us right. You know, with all

1317
01:19:30,640 --> 01:19:34,200
Speaker 2: these beautiful people. John Warwick is over the next table,

1318
01:19:34,439 --> 01:19:37,120
Speaker 2: and Barry Manilow and you know the people that he

1319
01:19:37,240 --> 01:19:39,680
Speaker 2: worked with. So it was a beautiful night. It was

1320
01:19:39,800 --> 01:19:42,080
Speaker 2: very a wonderful thing, and I talked to Clive a

1321
01:19:42,120 --> 01:19:44,040
Speaker 2: little bit. There was a great wonderful thing to do.

1322
01:19:45,280 --> 01:19:49,080
Speaker 2: But you never know, I mean, how you stand in

1323
01:19:49,200 --> 01:19:52,680
Speaker 2: this world where how your music affects people or what

1324
01:19:52,760 --> 01:19:55,639
Speaker 2: it does to people. You basically don't have a clue.

1325
01:19:55,720 --> 01:19:58,360
Speaker 2: I mean, they're like orphans that they go off on

1326
01:19:58,439 --> 01:20:00,080
Speaker 2: their own and they live in their own lives. You

1327
01:20:00,120 --> 01:20:02,479
Speaker 2: don't know what they will mean or what they do

1328
01:20:02,640 --> 01:20:04,560
Speaker 2: mean to other people. You have, no, you don't have

1329
01:20:04,640 --> 01:20:07,080
Speaker 2: a clue. You go, You're in your world and you

1330
01:20:07,280 --> 01:20:09,080
Speaker 2: keep doing and doing more of what you did.

1331
01:20:11,840 --> 01:20:14,080
Speaker 1: And how much are you touring these days?

1332
01:20:15,960 --> 01:20:18,600
Speaker 2: Well, I would like to tour more, I think, but

1333
01:20:18,840 --> 01:20:22,840
Speaker 2: I'm touring not too much, very little. I'm doing some

1334
01:20:23,000 --> 01:20:27,200
Speaker 2: dates in the spring. We're doing the Winery, We're doing

1335
01:20:27,240 --> 01:20:33,000
Speaker 2: the Cage, doing a show in Arizona, Musical Instrument Museum,

1336
01:20:33,960 --> 01:20:40,519
Speaker 2: Strange Eclectic dates, a date in Boston. Yeah, some are

1337
01:20:40,560 --> 01:20:44,000
Speaker 2: sprinkling on the East coast. Not too much though, but

1338
01:20:44,240 --> 01:20:48,360
Speaker 2: ten dates. I ain't going to get rich during concerts.

1339
01:20:55,760 --> 01:20:59,839
Speaker 1: How do you feel about so many of your contemporaries passing?

1340
01:21:02,120 --> 01:21:08,439
Speaker 2: Where do you begin? I mean, well, not too good.

1341
01:21:08,840 --> 01:21:15,320
Speaker 2: I mean I feel I mean people I knew, like

1342
01:21:15,680 --> 01:21:17,639
Speaker 2: like Lou Reid was my best friend in New York.

1343
01:21:18,479 --> 01:21:23,240
Speaker 2: Laurie kept Laurie is you know, she says, uh, you know,

1344
01:21:23,320 --> 01:21:26,320
Speaker 2: it's it's okay to feel said, but don't be sad.

1345
01:21:26,800 --> 01:21:29,600
Speaker 2: You know she's a She's a Buddhist too. I mean,

1346
01:21:29,640 --> 01:21:32,479
Speaker 2: he was a tight she guy. But I mean Lou,

1347
01:21:32,640 --> 01:21:35,120
Speaker 2: I was very close to Townsman sand we wrote together.

1348
01:21:35,240 --> 01:21:39,519
Speaker 2: And I was close to you know, Rick Tanko, we

1349
01:21:39,640 --> 01:21:41,560
Speaker 2: worked together. I mean, these are people that meant a

1350
01:21:41,640 --> 01:21:45,920
Speaker 2: lot to me, and they knew my kids, so as

1351
01:21:48,520 --> 01:21:50,800
Speaker 2: you know, and the list goes on. So you do

1352
01:21:50,960 --> 01:21:53,800
Speaker 2: feel kind of in one way, you feel kind of isolated.

1353
01:21:53,880 --> 01:21:57,880
Speaker 2: You feel you feel kind of left. I mean, I

1354
01:21:57,960 --> 01:22:00,680
Speaker 2: wonder where you begin to realize that the question is

1355
01:22:00,760 --> 01:22:02,640
Speaker 2: and why are they? Did they did they die? Or

1356
01:22:02,680 --> 01:22:05,120
Speaker 2: why did they pass into the other world or the

1357
01:22:05,160 --> 01:22:08,840
Speaker 2: other side. The real question is why are we still here?

1358
01:22:09,400 --> 01:22:13,880
Speaker 2: Then you got to grapple with that. I and I

1359
01:22:13,960 --> 01:22:15,880
Speaker 2: think sometimes you walk around and think, well, man, you

1360
01:22:15,960 --> 01:22:19,559
Speaker 2: know you feel okay, you might be the eyes for Towns.

1361
01:22:19,640 --> 01:22:21,479
Speaker 2: You might be the eyes for Lou, or you might

1362
01:22:21,560 --> 01:22:23,519
Speaker 2: be the eyes for these or Phi looks. You know,

1363
01:22:24,040 --> 01:22:26,880
Speaker 2: he was my brother, Fred Neil. He should be very

1364
01:22:26,920 --> 01:22:31,519
Speaker 2: close people to me, and so you feel why am I?

1365
01:22:31,680 --> 01:22:34,240
Speaker 2: You know, you feel kind of like the last man standing.

1366
01:22:34,680 --> 01:22:38,720
Speaker 2: And Joni, who's the godmother my daughter. We almost lost her.

1367
01:22:38,880 --> 01:22:40,760
Speaker 2: She fell on the floor, you know, was on the

1368
01:22:40,840 --> 01:22:44,400
Speaker 2: floor for two days. Nobody found her, so you know,

1369
01:22:44,600 --> 01:22:47,040
Speaker 2: and she'll probably be at the gig in La because

1370
01:22:47,040 --> 01:22:49,800
Speaker 2: she always comes to the show. But I don't know.

1371
01:22:49,920 --> 01:22:57,920
Speaker 2: It's a strange, strange thing to see these beautiful, wonderful, talented, funny,

1372
01:22:59,320 --> 01:23:05,120
Speaker 2: great people who you were very close to. But you

1373
01:23:05,160 --> 01:23:08,280
Speaker 2: know they live on within you too, They live on inside.

1374
01:23:08,360 --> 01:23:11,080
Speaker 2: Sometimes when I'm writing, a line will come up or something,

1375
01:23:11,240 --> 01:23:13,439
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, towns or run don't remind me of Lou

1376
01:23:13,600 --> 01:23:17,280
Speaker 2: or something remind me of speaking of Lou. I had

1377
01:23:17,280 --> 01:23:19,360
Speaker 2: the impression you were the Lou read of interviewers.

1378
01:23:21,600 --> 01:23:24,840
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm pretty familiar with Lou Reed's career. I didn't

1379
01:23:24,920 --> 01:23:28,240
Speaker 1: know him personally. I've heard from LORII. But what exactly

1380
01:23:28,360 --> 01:23:29,040
Speaker 1: does that mean?

1381
01:23:29,560 --> 01:23:31,600
Speaker 2: Well, Taylor Swift called me and she told me that

1382
01:23:31,720 --> 01:23:34,920
Speaker 2: you were like the lou Read of interviewers. No, I'm kidding.

1383
01:23:35,080 --> 01:23:38,040
Speaker 1: Well that's obviously a joke. But okay, so.

1384
01:23:38,120 --> 01:23:40,560
Speaker 2: Anyway, but but I mean these people, you know, you

1385
01:23:41,040 --> 01:23:42,800
Speaker 2: they you know, you just carry them with you. They're

1386
01:23:42,840 --> 01:23:48,040
Speaker 2: inside you know. But it is a bizarre thing. I'm

1387
01:23:48,040 --> 01:23:50,479
Speaker 2: trying to think that there's there's many more too, the

1388
01:23:50,600 --> 01:23:56,360
Speaker 2: ones whose names you don't know. You know Debbie also,

1389
01:23:56,479 --> 01:23:59,320
Speaker 2: we lost her. Debbie figured very big in my life.

1390
01:23:59,400 --> 01:24:02,600
Speaker 2: We worked a lot on the music and she's in

1391
01:24:02,680 --> 01:24:05,400
Speaker 2: the film. She's She does a great She narrates a

1392
01:24:05,479 --> 01:24:07,840
Speaker 2: lot of the film. Do what do we do?

1393
01:24:07,880 --> 01:24:09,240
Speaker 1: You come to play your own death?

1394
01:24:11,000 --> 01:24:13,800
Speaker 2: Well, I don't think. I don't. I don't think about

1395
01:24:13,840 --> 01:24:17,240
Speaker 2: it that much and I don't really it doesn't really,

1396
01:24:17,760 --> 01:24:23,640
Speaker 2: it doesn't really bother me. I H. I think you

1397
01:24:23,760 --> 01:24:25,519
Speaker 2: reach a certain point when you know you're in the

1398
01:24:25,600 --> 01:24:29,280
Speaker 2: danger zone with you know, with things like hell, things

1399
01:24:29,320 --> 01:24:37,519
Speaker 2: that are going on. Fortunately I'm okay. But I think

1400
01:24:37,600 --> 01:24:40,080
Speaker 2: you think about it and you know, you get your head,

1401
01:24:40,200 --> 01:24:42,160
Speaker 2: you get yourself prepared for it. You have to be

1402
01:24:42,280 --> 01:24:46,560
Speaker 2: a little you can't get attached to it though, But

1403
01:24:46,720 --> 01:24:48,639
Speaker 2: you have to see it's a thing that's it's gonna

1404
01:24:49,000 --> 01:24:52,200
Speaker 2: it's gonna happen. It's gonna come like I just turned

1405
01:24:52,240 --> 01:24:54,320
Speaker 2: the big eight. Oh you know that was a number

1406
01:24:54,400 --> 01:24:57,200
Speaker 2: for years. Oh yeah, people turn eighty you know her

1407
01:24:57,320 --> 01:25:02,560
Speaker 2: people people you know, people get pensions or people. I

1408
01:25:02,600 --> 01:25:04,880
Speaker 2: don't get a pension, but I mean, and then one

1409
01:25:04,960 --> 01:25:09,880
Speaker 2: day you are eighty years old, that number has visited you.

1410
01:25:10,800 --> 01:25:17,840
Speaker 1: You know, is there anything you want to accomplish or

1411
01:25:18,040 --> 01:25:20,400
Speaker 1: do before you leave this mortal claw?

1412
01:25:21,840 --> 01:25:24,600
Speaker 2: Well, I'm working. You know, I'm a great believer that

1413
01:25:24,680 --> 01:25:27,000
Speaker 2: you don't really leave the You don't leave the planet

1414
01:25:28,479 --> 01:25:31,560
Speaker 2: until you finish what you were intended or what you

1415
01:25:31,640 --> 01:25:34,439
Speaker 2: were meant to do. Until you've finished your work. And

1416
01:25:34,520 --> 01:25:37,280
Speaker 2: when you've finished those things, then you're ready to let

1417
01:25:37,400 --> 01:25:40,559
Speaker 2: go with a body. You know. I'm working. I've got

1418
01:25:40,600 --> 01:25:42,760
Speaker 2: an episodic novel I've been working on for years. I

1419
01:25:42,800 --> 01:25:45,439
Speaker 2: would love to see it, see that into the light

1420
01:25:45,520 --> 01:25:50,160
Speaker 2: of day. And I've got this memoir thing I've been

1421
01:25:50,200 --> 01:25:52,080
Speaker 2: working on. I would love it to be able to

1422
01:25:52,160 --> 01:25:54,560
Speaker 2: walk into the sun. But it all takes time. And

1423
01:25:54,600 --> 01:25:56,680
Speaker 2: I'm working on this album now that I started and

1424
01:25:57,840 --> 01:26:00,840
Speaker 2: I got to finish their stamp thing. It's like it's

1425
01:26:00,920 --> 01:26:03,679
Speaker 2: like the cross on my back. I got this burden

1426
01:26:03,680 --> 01:26:07,040
Speaker 2: I've got to carry to Calvary or something. So we're

1427
01:26:07,040 --> 01:26:08,800
Speaker 2: going to try to finish. It's the spring and have

1428
01:26:08,920 --> 01:26:11,920
Speaker 2: it out in the fall. To I thing called Dance

1429
01:26:11,960 --> 01:26:17,439
Speaker 2: and Love and Death and another another writer toose Leonard Cohen.

1430
01:26:17,479 --> 01:26:21,160
Speaker 2: You know Leonard left so these I didn't know Crosby

1431
01:26:21,280 --> 01:26:24,280
Speaker 2: that well, I mean I know, but you know these.

1432
01:26:24,920 --> 01:26:27,320
Speaker 2: This is what happens. I mean, you reach this danger

1433
01:26:27,400 --> 01:26:29,960
Speaker 2: zone and this is but a lot of people they

1434
01:26:30,200 --> 01:26:32,920
Speaker 2: left way before their time, you know, way before they

1435
01:26:33,880 --> 01:26:36,360
Speaker 2: There's a new book Lou Reed put out. You should

1436
01:26:36,400 --> 01:26:38,599
Speaker 2: get it. It's called The Art of the Straight Line.

1437
01:26:38,600 --> 01:26:40,760
Speaker 2: It's really beautiful. I'm reading it now. LORI put it

1438
01:26:40,840 --> 01:26:44,439
Speaker 2: together and it's really a sensational it's a really a

1439
01:26:44,520 --> 01:26:49,000
Speaker 2: great book. Hel Willners in it, and uh and Ramanta

1440
01:26:51,720 --> 01:26:56,400
Speaker 2: Ramuncho Mata from in Paris season. He does a great

1441
01:26:56,520 --> 01:27:02,640
Speaker 2: chapter and now it's wonderful to read. It's very refreshing

1442
01:27:02,640 --> 01:27:05,280
Speaker 2: and lu jumps off the page. He's right comes alive.

1443
01:27:06,040 --> 01:27:06,760
Speaker 2: Have you heard about it?

1444
01:27:07,680 --> 01:27:12,559
Speaker 1: Of course? So what's an average day like for you.

1445
01:27:13,720 --> 01:27:15,800
Speaker 2: Well, I get up and I walk the dog and

1446
01:27:15,880 --> 01:27:16,679
Speaker 2: I start writing.

1447
01:27:18,680 --> 01:27:20,720
Speaker 1: So you're working as hard as you ever were.

1448
01:27:21,320 --> 01:27:24,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've writ a lot of new songs for this record.

1449
01:27:25,360 --> 01:27:28,160
Speaker 2: Plus I'm doing these video I'm doing these projects, these

1450
01:27:28,920 --> 01:27:31,559
Speaker 2: sort of topical songs that nobody wants to look at

1451
01:27:31,600 --> 01:27:35,560
Speaker 2: her face or even think about. But I'm going to

1452
01:27:35,600 --> 01:27:39,800
Speaker 2: do it anyway because in the end they're going to

1453
01:27:39,880 --> 01:27:40,799
Speaker 2: see that it mattered.

1454
01:27:42,760 --> 01:27:47,920
Speaker 1: Why do you think doing topical song sixty years ago

1455
01:27:49,040 --> 01:27:54,599
Speaker 1: was at the forefront of artistic culture and now it's

1456
01:27:54,960 --> 01:27:55,959
Speaker 1: way in the background.

1457
01:27:56,520 --> 01:27:59,200
Speaker 2: Well, topical songs. See these things? I don't know. I

1458
01:27:59,320 --> 01:28:01,439
Speaker 2: sent you the rain falls down in Amsterdam, did you

1459
01:28:01,520 --> 01:28:02,360
Speaker 2: hear it? Yeah?

1460
01:28:02,479 --> 01:28:03,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so.

1461
01:28:04,560 --> 01:28:07,400
Speaker 2: About fascism and Nazis and how these things. This was

1462
01:28:07,479 --> 01:28:11,919
Speaker 2: I wrote right after the wall fell down. They they're precient.

1463
01:28:12,040 --> 01:28:15,479
Speaker 2: They're like, they're not the protest songs. They're not really

1464
01:28:15,600 --> 01:28:19,120
Speaker 2: topical songs. We're using that as a term of convenience,

1465
01:28:19,200 --> 01:28:21,280
Speaker 2: but I mean it's these are these are more like

1466
01:28:21,360 --> 01:28:23,640
Speaker 2: I say, like from a medical journalistic if you go

1467
01:28:23,720 --> 01:28:26,200
Speaker 2: to the Meal clinic site, you know that you read

1468
01:28:26,240 --> 01:28:29,760
Speaker 2: a description of a disease, you get a disease say

1469
01:28:29,800 --> 01:28:34,439
Speaker 2: about mass shootings. It's not going to change. It's never

1470
01:28:34,560 --> 01:28:37,479
Speaker 2: going to change. It's just going to get worse if

1471
01:28:37,560 --> 01:28:40,160
Speaker 2: the bodies are going to pile up. And this thing,

1472
01:28:40,320 --> 01:28:43,720
Speaker 2: this song, this lays it all out. And it's from

1473
01:28:43,760 --> 01:28:46,639
Speaker 2: the point of view of a shooter, which is unique.

1474
01:28:48,640 --> 01:28:51,120
Speaker 2: It's not like singing about something or what's a bad

1475
01:28:51,240 --> 01:28:53,760
Speaker 2: thing to do? Shoot, you know. This is actually about

1476
01:28:53,800 --> 01:28:57,000
Speaker 2: a kid who goes and shoots some shoots up his class,

1477
01:28:57,320 --> 01:29:01,040
Speaker 2: you know. So, I mean it's these perspectives are very interesting,

1478
01:29:01,120 --> 01:29:09,000
Speaker 2: you know. It's almost cinemagraph h h. Cinemagraphic, and they

1479
01:29:09,040 --> 01:29:13,000
Speaker 2: approach in some ways, but it's not descriptive. It's actually active.

1480
01:29:14,000 --> 01:29:19,960
Speaker 2: So it's I think they're important, these things, these songs,

1481
01:29:20,920 --> 01:29:24,080
Speaker 2: and nobody's doing it. No artists are reacting. They just

1482
01:29:24,240 --> 01:29:28,920
Speaker 2: it's just newspapers and television. That's it. And it's vers

1483
01:29:28,960 --> 01:29:31,400
Speaker 2: so sorry, and like at the end of danger landswers,

1484
01:29:31,400 --> 01:29:35,080
Speaker 2: you know, prayers and our prayers are with you, you know,

1485
01:29:35,320 --> 01:29:37,960
Speaker 2: our thoughts and prayer prayers are cheap in danger Land,

1486
01:29:38,000 --> 01:29:40,680
Speaker 2: you know, and you always hear it the same old

1487
01:29:40,760 --> 01:29:45,840
Speaker 2: ship over and over again, and it's like, come on,

1488
01:29:46,000 --> 01:29:50,000
Speaker 2: a government is supposed to a government is supposed to protect,

1489
01:29:50,040 --> 01:29:55,599
Speaker 2: you know, keep your keep its people safe. All right,

1490
01:29:55,680 --> 01:29:58,080
Speaker 2: there's criminals. They're gonna go kill them. You can't stop

1491
01:29:58,160 --> 01:30:01,080
Speaker 2: criminals they go, But you just take their toys away.

1492
01:30:01,439 --> 01:30:03,800
Speaker 2: They can't have these toys. They can be criminal all

1493
01:30:03,840 --> 01:30:07,040
Speaker 2: they want, but don't let them have these these weapons.

1494
01:30:08,160 --> 01:30:11,040
Speaker 2: Read the Washington Post. Read what a read? What an eight?

1495
01:30:11,680 --> 01:30:15,160
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I saw that post yesterday.

1496
01:30:15,400 --> 01:30:16,960
Speaker 2: See what a book? See what a bully can do

1497
01:30:17,080 --> 01:30:19,280
Speaker 2: to a kid? You know? I mean, so these this

1498
01:30:19,439 --> 01:30:24,160
Speaker 2: is this, these songs are important, but nobody knows it yet.

1499
01:30:24,240 --> 01:30:24,800
Speaker 2: Nobody knows.

1500
01:30:26,840 --> 01:30:29,639
Speaker 1: Well, we're getting the word out here. But also, why

1501
01:30:29,720 --> 01:30:31,839
Speaker 1: do you believe there can be no change?

1502
01:30:33,280 --> 01:30:39,720
Speaker 2: Well, I read the Times. I must be a there

1503
01:30:39,840 --> 01:30:45,840
Speaker 2: must be some kind of newsprint massacres because I get

1504
01:30:45,840 --> 01:30:48,200
Speaker 2: the New York Times delivered to my door every day

1505
01:30:48,240 --> 01:30:51,760
Speaker 2: in the Netherlands, and I read the article about that.

1506
01:30:52,040 --> 01:30:55,880
Speaker 2: Do you get the New York Times? Absolutely well, I'll

1507
01:30:56,000 --> 01:30:58,000
Speaker 2: send you a link to this thing if you didn't

1508
01:30:58,120 --> 01:31:01,160
Speaker 2: catch it. About to republic kends, who are going to

1509
01:31:01,200 --> 01:31:04,559
Speaker 2: empower the ones that can make or break anything? They

1510
01:31:04,680 --> 01:31:07,439
Speaker 2: say the same old talking points, nothing can be done.

1511
01:31:07,479 --> 01:31:10,519
Speaker 2: It's the most extraordinary comments they made about it.

1512
01:31:10,760 --> 01:31:11,679
Speaker 1: I read the article.

1513
01:31:11,760 --> 01:31:14,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you're asking me, can things change? What do

1514
01:31:14,960 --> 01:31:16,160
Speaker 2: you think when you read that?

1515
01:31:17,520 --> 01:31:24,320
Speaker 1: Well, I view it. Listen, public protests driven by younger

1516
01:31:24,439 --> 01:31:30,400
Speaker 1: people helped stop the Vietnam War, and I certainly remember that.

1517
01:31:31,520 --> 01:31:37,479
Speaker 1: I thought that when the Supreme Court struck down abortion rights,

1518
01:31:38,479 --> 01:31:41,600
Speaker 1: people would be rioting in the streets. They were not.

1519
01:31:42,640 --> 01:31:46,240
Speaker 1: So I think back to what was happening in Vietnam. Well,

1520
01:31:46,320 --> 01:31:49,920
Speaker 1: half the public was affected because of the draft. So

1521
01:31:50,120 --> 01:31:54,400
Speaker 1: my question becomes in my mind, what is the trigger

1522
01:31:54,520 --> 01:31:58,519
Speaker 1: point where people react. We saw this in Israel. There

1523
01:31:58,680 --> 01:32:02,120
Speaker 1: was a trigger point. It was not anticipated. No one

1524
01:32:02,240 --> 01:32:04,720
Speaker 1: felt that they would get into power and do this,

1525
01:32:04,920 --> 01:32:08,479
Speaker 1: and the public said no, Moss. We certainly know there

1526
01:32:08,520 --> 01:32:11,880
Speaker 1: are plenty of trigger points on the right. Is there

1527
01:32:11,960 --> 01:32:15,040
Speaker 1: a trigger point on the left? As I say, I

1528
01:32:15,200 --> 01:32:19,000
Speaker 1: thought there was. Things are going in the wrong direction,

1529
01:32:20,280 --> 01:32:27,680
Speaker 1: even if I mean, one can't predict the future. But

1530
01:32:28,080 --> 01:32:33,719
Speaker 1: the Republicans presently control the House of Representatives. They passed

1531
01:32:33,840 --> 01:32:36,120
Speaker 1: the debt ceiling limits under Trump when there was a

1532
01:32:36,160 --> 01:32:38,599
Speaker 1: lot of spending. They won't do it under Biden. They

1533
01:32:38,720 --> 01:32:43,640
Speaker 1: won't even put forth a budget. How long can this

1534
01:32:43,960 --> 01:32:49,680
Speaker 1: go on? Before people react and at this point, yeah, but.

1535
01:32:49,800 --> 01:32:53,720
Speaker 2: Remember Israel is a country. It's more homogeneous. America is

1536
01:32:53,760 --> 01:32:56,600
Speaker 2: not really a homogeneous is not a homogeneous country like

1537
01:32:56,680 --> 01:33:01,000
Speaker 2: Italy Israel. I know, Israel's come from all over Europe

1538
01:33:01,040 --> 01:33:05,640
Speaker 2: and other people. After the diaspora. Diaspora, however you have

1539
01:33:05,760 --> 01:33:09,000
Speaker 2: pronounced that. I mean they are many, many came back return.

1540
01:33:09,360 --> 01:33:14,800
Speaker 2: It's still through the cultural and the religion there's more homogeneous,

1541
01:33:15,520 --> 01:33:20,080
Speaker 2: you know, the Orthodox alternate notwithstanding or Italy or French,

1542
01:33:20,120 --> 01:33:22,320
Speaker 2: you know, you got this sort of or the Dutch people.

1543
01:33:23,000 --> 01:33:27,080
Speaker 2: America is a different story. And I'll tell you this counting,

1544
01:33:27,680 --> 01:33:30,040
Speaker 2: it's not going to end in like several lifetimes as

1545
01:33:30,080 --> 01:33:34,120
Speaker 2: far as we know, because the way the thing was

1546
01:33:34,200 --> 01:33:37,920
Speaker 2: set up Israel, they don't have states. They don't have

1547
01:33:38,040 --> 01:33:40,960
Speaker 2: an Alabama, they don't have a Massachusetts, they don't have

1548
01:33:41,040 --> 01:33:45,920
Speaker 2: a South Dakota. It's set up so you've got to

1549
01:33:46,040 --> 01:33:47,680
Speaker 2: go through a lot of hoops and a lot of

1550
01:33:47,760 --> 01:33:54,080
Speaker 2: ringers to get things to stop, especially taking because it's

1551
01:33:54,160 --> 01:33:59,120
Speaker 2: not just not selling assault weapons. You got to do

1552
01:33:59,200 --> 01:34:01,560
Speaker 2: what Australia is. You've got to turn the weapons in

1553
01:34:02,400 --> 01:34:04,799
Speaker 2: and pay, you know, pay people to turn their weapons

1554
01:34:04,880 --> 01:34:08,479
Speaker 2: and they've got more webs than people. It's just and

1555
01:34:08,600 --> 01:34:11,040
Speaker 2: it's it's going on and on and on. So I mean,

1556
01:34:11,600 --> 01:34:16,960
Speaker 2: it's become it's like palpable. It's the danger in the

1557
01:34:17,040 --> 01:34:21,559
Speaker 2: States is and the Republicans are whoever they those people are,

1558
01:34:21,640 --> 01:34:24,840
Speaker 2: they're not. No one's going to change this. There's going

1559
01:34:24,920 --> 01:34:26,519
Speaker 2: to be more than what there's been one hundred and

1560
01:34:26,680 --> 01:34:30,120
Speaker 2: seventy mass shootings. I said before, since the New Year.

1561
01:34:30,600 --> 01:34:36,439
Speaker 2: It's March thirtieth now, it's these things are going to espect.

1562
01:34:36,520 --> 01:34:38,280
Speaker 2: More of these guns are being sold. It's a good

1563
01:34:38,320 --> 01:34:41,839
Speaker 2: business to be in selling guns, you know, the handgun

1564
01:34:41,920 --> 01:34:45,439
Speaker 2: thing with no licenses, right, They don't even need to

1565
01:34:45,479 --> 01:34:47,600
Speaker 2: get a lesson. They don't have to go learn how

1566
01:34:47,680 --> 01:34:50,080
Speaker 2: to shoot, go to get a certificate from a shooting

1567
01:34:50,120 --> 01:34:52,960
Speaker 2: club that you know how to use a weapon, and

1568
01:34:53,080 --> 01:34:54,880
Speaker 2: you can carry it around to a bar, into a

1569
01:34:55,000 --> 01:34:59,160
Speaker 2: high school, into a college behind your back, your belt.

1570
01:35:00,640 --> 01:35:02,360
Speaker 2: So I don't know how this is going to play,

1571
01:35:03,000 --> 01:35:05,320
Speaker 2: you know, but you read the article. That was the

1572
01:35:05,400 --> 01:35:10,360
Speaker 2: scariest thing I ever read. Because there's no support, there's

1573
01:35:10,400 --> 01:35:14,240
Speaker 2: no backing up. They just want to live. They want

1574
01:35:14,240 --> 01:35:16,880
Speaker 2: to unleash it more. They want to what's the word

1575
01:35:16,880 --> 01:35:20,680
Speaker 2: on leash or they want to lessen the restrictions, right.

1576
01:35:21,560 --> 01:35:23,599
Speaker 1: I mean some of the stuff is absolutely head turning,

1577
01:35:24,160 --> 01:35:29,040
Speaker 1: like getting in Arkansas, getting rid of protections for child workers.

1578
01:35:29,640 --> 01:35:32,320
Speaker 1: I am a pessimist, but I must throw in here.

1579
01:35:33,520 --> 01:35:38,240
Speaker 1: We grew up the concept that marijuana would be legal.

1580
01:35:39,520 --> 01:35:42,240
Speaker 1: People talked about it, we laughed about it. But it's

1581
01:35:42,320 --> 01:35:46,479
Speaker 1: true gays can get married. So as much as I'm

1582
01:35:46,520 --> 01:35:51,080
Speaker 1: a pessimist, things can change. The other thing is, we

1583
01:35:51,240 --> 01:35:54,280
Speaker 1: grew up with all these people fighting for their nations

1584
01:35:54,320 --> 01:35:57,600
Speaker 1: and we'd say, man, that's not where I'm at. You

1585
01:35:57,720 --> 01:36:03,080
Speaker 1: look at some of these countries like Hungry, like Ukraine.

1586
01:36:03,240 --> 01:36:07,519
Speaker 1: In the reverse, you realize at some point maybe you

1587
01:36:07,720 --> 01:36:09,760
Speaker 1: have to. I'm an old guy, but you have to

1588
01:36:09,880 --> 01:36:13,720
Speaker 1: sacrifice your life for some This is the other thing

1589
01:36:14,160 --> 01:36:17,760
Speaker 1: that you're talking about in your art. You're standing for

1590
01:36:17,960 --> 01:36:22,920
Speaker 1: something that's a concept that has been lost to say.

1591
01:36:23,080 --> 01:36:26,880
Speaker 1: I'm gonna put everything on the line, irrelevant of what

1592
01:36:27,120 --> 01:36:27,519
Speaker 1: goes on.

1593
01:36:28,439 --> 01:36:30,280
Speaker 2: I'm putting things on the line, and you got to

1594
01:36:30,320 --> 01:36:35,080
Speaker 2: start with one person, start somewhere. Also, remember game marriage,

1595
01:36:35,600 --> 01:36:40,320
Speaker 2: marijuana doesn't have This thing chizzled into the Constitution called

1596
01:36:40,360 --> 01:36:43,720
Speaker 2: the Second Amendment and the second Second Amendment. By the way,

1597
01:36:45,160 --> 01:36:48,720
Speaker 2: it was where Robert Palmer hit me into this. You know,

1598
01:36:49,120 --> 01:36:50,120
Speaker 2: the writer from the name.

1599
01:36:50,080 --> 01:36:53,160
Speaker 1: Robert Palmer, the writer New York Times nowseason.

1600
01:36:52,640 --> 01:36:55,599
Speaker 2: Palmer, it's you know him and his daughter in mine

1601
01:36:55,640 --> 01:36:58,800
Speaker 2: went to Sarah Lawrence together. They were very best friends,

1602
01:36:58,840 --> 01:37:02,080
Speaker 2: and Palmer was very close friend of mine. He said,

1603
01:37:02,120 --> 01:37:07,040
Speaker 2: you know, the Second Amendment, and I it turned out

1604
01:37:07,080 --> 01:37:11,000
Speaker 2: to be totally, patently true. The Second Amendment was not about, well,

1605
01:37:11,040 --> 01:37:13,080
Speaker 2: the British are going to come, let's all get our

1606
01:37:13,160 --> 01:37:16,840
Speaker 2: guns out to protect ourselves. It was put in by

1607
01:37:17,400 --> 01:37:23,439
Speaker 2: Southern states only for white slave owners to have enough AMMO,

1608
01:37:23,640 --> 01:37:29,360
Speaker 2: have enough guns to prevent uprisings. That's all the Second

1609
01:37:29,400 --> 01:37:32,720
Speaker 2: Amendent was ever about. And it was nothing more or

1610
01:37:32,800 --> 01:37:36,360
Speaker 2: nothing less, nothing to do but the British are coming,

1611
01:37:36,520 --> 01:37:38,840
Speaker 2: or this is kind of nothing like that. It was

1612
01:37:39,000 --> 01:37:46,680
Speaker 2: only about protecting against slave uprisings. And I mean, think

1613
01:37:46,720 --> 01:37:51,679
Speaker 2: about that and that and that tacit understanding that built

1614
01:37:51,720 --> 01:38:00,160
Speaker 2: in thing. People aren't You don't need a pistol to

1615
01:38:00,200 --> 01:38:04,160
Speaker 2: shoot a deer for food. You don't need an assault

1616
01:38:04,240 --> 01:38:07,559
Speaker 2: rifle to shoot a deer to eat food. So they

1617
01:38:07,720 --> 01:38:11,160
Speaker 2: changed the narrative to saying well, government's bad. They're going

1618
01:38:11,240 --> 01:38:15,120
Speaker 2: to come and fuck us over, not only take our

1619
01:38:15,160 --> 01:38:17,439
Speaker 2: guns away, but they're going to tax us. They're gonna this,

1620
01:38:17,600 --> 01:38:21,320
Speaker 2: they're going to that. So they switched from deer to government.

1621
01:38:21,680 --> 01:38:26,320
Speaker 2: They switched the whole rationale at the NRA. So you know,

1622
01:38:26,720 --> 01:38:30,160
Speaker 2: the and this thing, it's going to be the second amount.

1623
01:38:30,240 --> 01:38:33,840
Speaker 2: That's a tough rock to pry loose in this thing,

1624
01:38:34,120 --> 01:38:36,280
Speaker 2: which is different than the gay marriage, are different than

1625
01:38:36,320 --> 01:38:41,320
Speaker 2: the marijuana things. Those are cultural. Those things cultural evolutions

1626
01:38:41,840 --> 01:38:44,559
Speaker 2: that happen, and that's good. It's off of the good.

1627
01:38:46,000 --> 01:38:49,360
Speaker 2: I mean, William Browse was talking about decriminalizing pot like

1628
01:38:49,560 --> 01:38:55,200
Speaker 2: in the forties. But I mean it's it's just a

1629
01:38:55,400 --> 01:38:59,360
Speaker 2: very difficult and a very dangerous and I mean I

1630
01:38:59,439 --> 01:39:03,000
Speaker 2: don't like to be alarmists, but what's going on. It's

1631
01:39:03,080 --> 01:39:05,760
Speaker 2: a very very dangerous thing. And the young people that

1632
01:39:05,840 --> 01:39:07,840
Speaker 2: should be changing the rules are the ones pulling the

1633
01:39:07,880 --> 01:39:09,120
Speaker 2: triggers killing everybody.

1634
01:39:09,960 --> 01:39:14,160
Speaker 1: Wow, that's pretty dynamic. So needless to say, as you

1635
01:39:14,240 --> 01:39:19,280
Speaker 1: said earlier, the pace is accelerating. So what will be

1636
01:39:19,560 --> 01:39:22,760
Speaker 1: the effect of the pace accelerating.

1637
01:39:23,560 --> 01:39:26,040
Speaker 2: Well, there'll be more people killed, There'll be more shootings,

1638
01:39:26,120 --> 01:39:30,760
Speaker 2: more mass shootings, more suicides, young people at home in

1639
01:39:30,840 --> 01:39:36,880
Speaker 2: their homes. I mean guns, I guess after the thing

1640
01:39:37,000 --> 01:39:39,439
Speaker 2: I wrote. Guns are kind of unavoidable to discuss this

1641
01:39:39,600 --> 01:39:41,960
Speaker 2: at this point, especially it's right in your face in

1642
01:39:42,040 --> 01:39:45,280
Speaker 2: the newspaper, on TV all the time as we speak.

1643
01:39:45,360 --> 01:39:49,760
Speaker 2: Something's probably happened. But young people having guns. It's the

1644
01:39:49,920 --> 01:39:54,360
Speaker 2: leading cause of death with young people. Teenagers are guns.

1645
01:39:57,160 --> 01:40:01,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I saw that report. But let's just assume for

1646
01:40:02,000 --> 01:40:06,000
Speaker 1: the sake of discussion that there won't be laws preventing this.

1647
01:40:06,920 --> 01:40:09,439
Speaker 1: What's going to happen. Do you think everybody's going to

1648
01:40:09,520 --> 01:40:12,320
Speaker 1: get a gun? What's going to happen in schools? What

1649
01:40:12,400 --> 01:40:15,240
Speaker 1: do you think will be the reaction to this action?

1650
01:40:16,400 --> 01:40:20,000
Speaker 2: Well, the reaction from the right is that teachers should

1651
01:40:20,080 --> 01:40:23,679
Speaker 2: be armed. Maybe students should be armed to protect themselves

1652
01:40:23,720 --> 01:40:26,160
Speaker 2: for somebody's going to come and kill them. That have

1653
01:40:26,320 --> 01:40:30,160
Speaker 2: more guns is the answer to guns in places where

1654
01:40:30,160 --> 01:40:34,160
Speaker 2: there could be a mass gatherings, where there could be

1655
01:40:34,240 --> 01:40:38,599
Speaker 2: some kind of a threat. But look, man, these things

1656
01:40:38,720 --> 01:40:42,920
Speaker 2: have in MYO the video, I mean, it's this little

1657
01:40:43,320 --> 01:40:46,040
Speaker 2: film art piece thing. It's not hard, it's just a film.

1658
01:40:47,120 --> 01:40:51,080
Speaker 2: I mean, there's McDonald's. There's restaurants, there's gas stations. I mean,

1659
01:40:51,920 --> 01:40:53,439
Speaker 2: if you're on the road, man, you pull into a

1660
01:40:53,520 --> 01:40:55,639
Speaker 2: gas station two in the morning, there's some pretty weird

1661
01:40:55,680 --> 01:40:58,639
Speaker 2: people standing around the pumps. And man, some of these

1662
01:40:58,680 --> 01:41:01,600
Speaker 2: people got guns. And you're just going to get a

1663
01:41:01,680 --> 01:41:07,560
Speaker 2: cant a Snickers bar, you know, And it's I, I

1664
01:41:07,640 --> 01:41:11,880
Speaker 2: don't know, I don't know, but mark my mark my

1665
01:41:11,960 --> 01:41:16,880
Speaker 2: words out of this thing. Yeah, keep tune in and

1666
01:41:17,720 --> 01:41:19,840
Speaker 2: kick tuned in to my my, my little movies.

1667
01:41:22,200 --> 01:41:26,120
Speaker 1: On that note, Eric, I think we're going to put

1668
01:41:26,160 --> 01:41:30,639
Speaker 1: a stop to it. You're a very aer udite, intelligent man.

1669
01:41:31,040 --> 01:41:35,120
Speaker 1: Great to get the history. You can obviously wrestle with

1670
01:41:35,240 --> 01:41:38,080
Speaker 1: the issues. Thanks so much for taking the time with

1671
01:41:38,200 --> 01:41:42,680
Speaker 1: my audience. Good night, Okay, till next time. This is

1672
01:41:42,800 --> 01:41:43,840
Speaker 1: Bob Left Sets