1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: What is up, Runner Gang, Welcome back to Post run 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: High Today, I'm sitting down with Tim Gunn. You may 3 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:13,039 Speaker 1: know him as the impeccably dressed mentor from Project Runway. 4 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: He was always in a suit, always giving the most 5 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: thoughtful critiques and if you're not familiar with Project Runway, 6 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: the show first aired in two thousand and four, right 7 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 1: in the golden era of reality TV, and it quickly 8 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,319 Speaker 1: became a hit. The show followed aspiring designers competing in 9 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 1: high pressure challenges to create innovative fashion pieces, all under 10 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: extreme time constraints, and Tim he was the heart of 11 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: the show and the mentor guiding them through it all. 12 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 1: But Tim's story goes way beyond TV, and in this episode, 13 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: we go all the way back to his childhood, growing 14 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: up with a father in the FBI, his struggles finding 15 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 1: his path, and how he ended up in the fashion 16 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:52,559 Speaker 1: world despite never planning on it. We dive into his 17 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: years as a teacher, how he shaped his approach to mentorship, 18 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: and what really happened behind the scenes of Project Runway. 19 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: There were serious doubts in the beginning of the show 20 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: and people did not think it would work, and Tim 21 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: never even imagined being on camera, which was so hard 22 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: to imagine because he was the heart of the show. 23 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:14,759 Speaker 1: This conversation is packed with lessons on trusting the process, 24 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: finding your voice, and taking risks. And guys, if you're 25 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,040 Speaker 1: enjoying Post Run High, please make sure you subscribe to 26 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:23,680 Speaker 1: my YouTube channel at Kate max to watch our full 27 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: video episodes and also follow me across socials because I'll 28 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: be keeping you guys up to date on what's to 29 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: come on all of the shows we've got going on. 30 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: All right, let's get into our episode. It's Tim, What 31 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,960 Speaker 1: is up? Guys, Welcome back to Post Run High. I'm 32 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: sitting here today with the iconic and legendary Tim Gun. 33 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 2: You flatter me, good Evans. What an introduction. Thank you, Tim. 34 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: I'm seriously so excited to have you on the show today. 35 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: I feel like I grew up knowing who you are 36 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: and watching you. And I alluded to this earlier when 37 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: we were doing our walk, but I actually was considering 38 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: Parsons for a school, like very closely. Oh so, it's 39 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 1: so cool to be able to sit down with you 40 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 1: and just know how much of an impact you had 41 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: on Parsons as a university. 42 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 2: Well, thank you very much. I'm thrilled to be here 43 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 2: and honored to be here, and I look forward to 44 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:24,239 Speaker 2: a wonderful conversation here. 45 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: The premise of post ran Hig is we always do 46 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: some sort of activity before the sit down interview. You 47 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:32,679 Speaker 1: and I started out by doing a walk in Brooklyn. 48 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: So first I just want to ask, is fitness a 49 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: big part of your life? Has it been for years? 50 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 2: Well? I have to say I do feel grounded through 51 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 2: a movement, but for me it's something fairly recent. Nine 52 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 2: years ago, I met this dynamic individual named Tim Morehouse. 53 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:50,959 Speaker 2: He's a three time Olympian and a silver medalist in 54 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:55,919 Speaker 2: fencing saber fencing, and he said he had just opened 55 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 2: a fencing club. And I asked, what's a fencing club? 56 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 2: I had no idea place ship fence and have a drink. 57 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 2: He said, it's on ninety first Street. I said, ninety 58 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 2: first Street. I live on ninetieth. It's directly behind my 59 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 2: apartment building. So I went over to Sam and I 60 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:18,079 Speaker 2: was really enraptured with the activity. So at age six 61 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 2: sixty two, I took up fencing. 62 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: I find that so interesting because I was saying I 63 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: just did an interview with Chris Cuomo last week and 64 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: we're in the edit right now, editing our conversation, and 65 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: he talked a lot about getting into self defense and 66 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,839 Speaker 1: sparring at a later age in life, and I find 67 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: it fascinating. And I have brothers that love jiu jitsu, 68 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: the kind of combat type of workouts like the fighting 69 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: people love. But fencing is an interesting one. I haven't 70 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: heard that one before. 71 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 2: Well, it's a fascinating sport with a long, long history. 72 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 2: It originated in France, and of course it came out 73 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 2: of dueling. But with fencing, you're dad's supposed to harm 74 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 2: the other person. You'll get penalized. 75 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: Although sometimes it hurts. 76 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 2: Oh well sometimes yes, but then you've done something wrong. 77 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 2: And I didn't know I would fall in love with it, 78 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 2: and I did. And Tim Morehouse said to me, you know, 79 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 2: we really need to work on making you stronger. So 80 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 2: he introduced me to a trainer, Jason, and I've been 81 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 2: working with him for eight years now and we work 82 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 2: out twice a week. So I've become a bit of 83 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 2: a fitness nut. But I will say this, I'm going 84 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 2: to contradict you about the post workout high. I need 85 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 2: a post workout nap, Okay, not a high. 86 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 1: No, And I do have to say, like it depends 87 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 1: on what the workout is. If I'm doing some sort 88 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: of like a lifting workout or a hit workout, I'm 89 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: the same way. I'm napping afterwards because I rarely move 90 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 1: my body like that. But after run or a walk, 91 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: I feel like it's just something I've been doing for 92 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: so many years, and I feel like a walk is 93 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: probably the most common thing, Like you do feel that 94 00:04:57,960 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: rush of endorphins and you feel kind of this sense 95 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:00,720 Speaker 1: of accomplishment. 96 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 2: Well, in fact, after my fitness training, I walked for 97 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 2: about an hour because it cools me down and reinvigorates me. 98 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 2: And I agree, yeah, great, yeah. 99 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 1: All right, well let's get into it. Because I as 100 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: I was doing my research on you and learning all 101 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: about you, I really found like the trajector of your 102 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: life to be so interesting. And what I love to 103 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: do in my interviews is just get to know somebody 104 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: from the ground up. You grew up in Washington, d C. 105 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 2: I did. My father was an FBI agent, and he 106 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 2: was a very talented writer, and I should say he 107 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 2: spent his first was it one year or two years 108 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,280 Speaker 2: in the field office in Newark, New Jersey, and then 109 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 2: he was transferred to headquarters, and somehow Jaeggar Hoover, who 110 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 2: was the director then and he was the director through 111 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 2: five presidents, learned of Dad's talented writing and he ended 112 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 2: up being Hoover's ghost writer. He wrote all of his book, 113 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 2: his correspondence, his speeches, and he traveled with him. 114 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:06,919 Speaker 1: You know what, it actually makes a lot of sense. 115 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 1: And I think that's a really interesting point because it's 116 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: like when you think about somebody that's in the FBI 117 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 1: or working a job in politics or in the government, 118 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: or even like in the military, which I kind of 119 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 1: associate like the FBI to be like a little of 120 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: a simpler mentality. It's like you don't necessarily think of, oh, 121 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,359 Speaker 1: this person might actually be very creative and a good writer. 122 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 1: But it makes sense that you had those kind of 123 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: traits in your family, right, because you're a very creative person. 124 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 2: Well, and I'm very very lucky that my parents nurtured 125 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 2: that cultivated it. And my mother, until I was born, 126 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 2: was a librarian. In fact, she started the CIA's library. 127 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 1: Growing up in a family where you know, it's very 128 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 1: government oriented, was creativity something that was like fostered in 129 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:54,359 Speaker 1: your household? Or was that something that you kind of 130 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 1: carved out for yourself at a young age. 131 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 2: I think it was largely my doing. I was a 132 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 2: very reclusive, nerdy kid. I had only a select number 133 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:13,239 Speaker 2: of friends. I didn't participate in team sports. I didn't 134 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 2: like them. I was a competitive swimmer. I liked loved swimming, 135 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 2: but I loved reading. I loved Lego. I still remember 136 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 2: when it came out in the nineteen fifties, and when 137 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 2: it first came out, these were just anonymous bricks. You 138 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 2: could do whatever you wanted with them, and I used 139 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 2: to spend most of my allowance money buying Lego. And 140 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 2: I still remember when doors and windows came out and 141 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 2: roof tiles. I was ecstatic because I was just leaving 142 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 2: holes in buildings, pretending it was a door or a window, 143 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 2: and suddenly there's the real thing. It was thrilling. I 144 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 2: was a creative kid, and I was teased and abused 145 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 2: about that with some frequency. But everything makes us who 146 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 2: we are. 147 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: And then you went on in college post high school, 148 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: you went to an art school. I did, and you 149 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: were studying sculpture art. 150 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 2: Initially I wanted to be a painter, and having grown 151 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 2: up in Washington, a city where there are lots and 152 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 2: lots of museums and entry is free. I mean, you 153 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 2: have this immediate access to all of this work. I 154 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 2: thought that means museums all over the world are free. 155 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 2: No they're not. My point is just that I really 156 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 2: revered painting, and when I was in school, I had 157 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 2: to take a three dimensional design class and I resisted 158 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 2: and I had a big debate with my advisor about 159 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 2: why am I doing this? I have absolutely no interest 160 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 2: in it. Well, you're doing it because I'm telling you 161 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 2: you have to do it. And it was a kind 162 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 2: of epiphany for me because I was really good at 163 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 2: three dimensional thinking, and I put painting on the shelf. 164 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 2: I mean I still painted, but I really dove into sculpture, 165 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,679 Speaker 2: and when I graduated and was a starving artist, I 166 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 2: ended up making a living by building architectural models for 167 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:15,439 Speaker 2: three firms in Washington. 168 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: It makes sense that you then went on and like 169 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: still liked doing something that was maybe a little different 170 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: than painting, but similar in a lot of ways, and 171 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:23,319 Speaker 1: still using your hands, yes, very technical. 172 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 2: My grandmother used to say, why are you doing this? 173 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 2: You do such good things with your hands. Become a doctor, 174 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 2: it's so different. 175 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: And I actually grew up oil painting as well, so 176 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: I can completely relate to like being like, oh, I 177 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 1: might want to pursue this. But you know, it's really 178 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: interesting to me about what you just said was you 179 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,199 Speaker 1: loved museums growing up. And it makes a lot of 180 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: sense because didn't you go on also post college and 181 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 1: you were working at a museum in the education department. 182 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 2: Well, I was teaching at a museum school and also 183 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 2: working in the museum in the installation area. But do 184 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 2: you know, I know the earliest stage of my career 185 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 2: as an educator. Tell me a dear mentor who became 186 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 2: an incredibly close friend, woman by the name of Rona Slade. 187 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 2: She contacted reached out to me to say, I'm teaching 188 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 2: a high school summer class six weeks, five days a week, 189 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 2: and I need an assistant. Would you like to do it? 190 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 2: And I thought, oh, good happens. Of course I'd love 191 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 2: to it, and I would have done anything for Rona. 192 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 2: So we did the class. I loved every second of 193 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 2: it on my first experience in a classroom in that capacity. 194 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 2: And Rona called me about a month later and she said, 195 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 2: I just had someone drop out who was teaching three 196 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 2: dimensional design, and I want you to do it, and 197 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 2: I said, oh, thank you, I'd love to do it. 198 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 2: I'll come right over. So the first day and then 199 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 2: it ended up being the first week of classes, I 200 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 2: would throw up in the school's parking lot. Every single morning, 201 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 2: I would set a wreck and I would have to 202 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 2: brace myself up against the wall of the classroom because 203 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 2: my knees would be shaking so badly. I would fear 204 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 2: that I would tumble over. 205 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 1: And why just. 206 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 2: Unconditional, abridged panic. So I spent that week rehearsing how 207 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 2: to quit. And I took the speech that I had 208 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 2: rehearsed to Rona was in her office. Were sitting like 209 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 2: this and she's listening to me, nodding, and she said, well, 210 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,959 Speaker 2: I trust that this will either kill you or cure you. 211 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 2: And I'm counting on the ladder good day. I thought, 212 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 2: oh no, I've got to come back and do this again. 213 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 2: That part of my nervousness was feeling that I needed 214 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 2: to be the answer person, that whatever the students asked 215 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 2: or whatever they wanted to explore, I had to be 216 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 2: the expert. And this is a slow evolution. It wasn't 217 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 2: until about the third or maybe even the fourth year 218 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 2: of teaching that I came to terms with this, and 219 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 2: I just said to myself, this is ridiculous. You can't 220 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 2: possibly know everything. And this is before Google existed, or 221 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 2: I could have gone into a back room and said, well, 222 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 2: let's go google this and I'll go and pretend that 223 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 2: I knew the answer. So I made the decision to 224 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 2: turn it back on the students and to say, great question. 225 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 2: I want each of you to research this and come 226 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 2: back to the next class with an answer that you 227 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 2: think no one else will will have found, so that 228 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:38,439 Speaker 2: we don't get all this boilerplate stuff. Well it's the 229 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:42,439 Speaker 2: same old answer every time, and it really worked. And 230 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 2: I then began each semester by declaring to the students, 231 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 2: you are doing the heavy lifting in this class, not me. 232 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 2: I'm putting seventy percent of the work here on your heads, 233 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 2: and you need to get used to that. And the 234 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,200 Speaker 2: other thing. This is also a non set twitter that 235 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 2: I would say to them. I want you to know 236 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 2: that in my world, the squeaky wheel does not get greased, 237 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 2: so don't even think about squeaking. 238 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, And what do you think it was 239 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,679 Speaker 1: about that style of teaching that was so effective that 240 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: you were like, this is working well. 241 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 2: The students felt invested in their own education and then 242 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 2: the outcome of what we were doing in that class, 243 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 2: and they didn't feel as though they were just a 244 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 2: sponge soaking all the stuff up. They were responsible for 245 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,839 Speaker 2: a lot of the stuff. I also really believed in 246 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 2: then and believe in even stronger now that dialogue is 247 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,839 Speaker 2: critically important in a classroom. If you have some pedantic 248 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 2: teacher who just talks at you all the time, I 249 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 2: think it's numbing. It's not even remotely engaging. 250 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: It's like active learning. Yay, right, because yeah, participating in 251 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: the conversation. But I can imagine, based on classes that 252 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: I've been in college, that the hardest job for a 253 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: teacher is figuring out how to create an environment that 254 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: facilitates conversations amongst students. It's true, you know, going in 255 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: as a teacher, Okay, here are the confidence students that 256 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: are going to raise their hands all the time. They 257 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: love to talk. But then there's the students like I 258 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: was definitely one of these students that was like afraid 259 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: to raise my hand down. 260 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 2: I was true, I was the same right, So like, 261 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 2: what did. 262 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: You do in those situations as a teacher to kind 263 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: of get those people to maybe break out of their shell. 264 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 2: In the studio situation, it's very different from a desk situation. 265 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 2: In a studio of situation, physically, you don't feel that 266 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 2: there's this hierarchy of who's closest to the teacher in 267 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 2: a way or to the podium because as an instructor, 268 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 2: I'm always walking around, walking, walking, walking and giving everybody 269 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 2: equal time. And also in that kind of capacity, you 270 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 2: can have a one on one it's so easy. I mean, 271 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 2: it's like what you see on Project Runway. But when 272 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 2: it's a different kind of class, it's it's not a 273 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 2: studio class, it's I won't call it a lecture because 274 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 2: I don't do that, but but a lecture style. I 275 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 2: would have the students arrange their desks in a circle. 276 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 2: I would sit at one of those desks in the 277 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 2: circle too, and we'd conduct the class so everybody has 278 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 2: the same line of vision in a manner speaking, there's 279 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 2: no one who's at the front of the class versus 280 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 2: being at the back of the class. And it really 281 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 2: it worked, But it has to do with the physical 282 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 2: environment with what do you do with chairs or tables 283 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 2: or deaths that creates a kind of democracy. 284 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: Of short Really I love that idea. Though the circle 285 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 1: table for a left year, I think that's so smart. 286 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 2: I will also share with you, though Ky, this was 287 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 2: true teaching. This was true in Project Runway. I am 288 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 2: the worst person when it comes to first impressions. Why 289 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 2: that person you think, oh, they're never going to mount anything, 290 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 2: They're never going to do anything. They end up rising 291 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 2: and being the cream and the person you think, oh, 292 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 2: this person's going to run away with it, then they 293 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 2: end up disappointing you. 294 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 1: I want to talk about that as well in the 295 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: context of fashion, because I feel like that's probably a 296 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: common theme in those kind of classrooms. There are some 297 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: people that I think don't have the same level of 298 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: raw talent. Absolutely, you are harder workers. 299 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 2: Exactly, And in fact, I will use my niece as 300 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 2: as an example of that. My niece and my nephew 301 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 2: couldn't be more different, completely and totally different. My niece 302 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 2: is a workaholic. She did well in school because she 303 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 2: really worked hard. My nephew tested off the charts and 304 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 2: was a lazy, good for nothing bum and did really badly. 305 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 2: And I sat on the admissions committee at Parsons for 306 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 2: a number of years, and I was the champion of 307 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 2: the underdog, because most faculty on an emissions committee only 308 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 2: want the stars. Well, yeah, because then you don't have 309 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 2: to work very hard. They're self starters. They'll do all 310 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 2: this on their own and you can just sit in 311 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 2: the back of the studio and smoke a cigarette or whatever. 312 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 2: So when we would have someone whose portfolio was raw, 313 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 2: but you look at where they're from. They're from some 314 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 2: place in Alaska with sixty people. Look what they're doing 315 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 2: with this. They've ever been to a museum. And I 316 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 2: was proud that I was the champion of those individuals. 317 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 2: And if they in fact came to Parsons, generally speaking, 318 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 2: they did really, really well because they were so thrilled 319 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 2: to be in this environment that nurtured them and that 320 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 2: exposed them to things that they hadn't been exposed to before. 321 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:41,439 Speaker 2: And as a teacher, that's the most exciting thing in 322 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 2: the world. When you see someone have an epiphany about 323 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 2: who they can be and what they can become and 324 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 2: they take charge of that. It's thrilling. 325 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: I think being a teacher and you can attest for. 326 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:55,400 Speaker 1: It's like one of the most rewarding careers is because 327 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 1: over those four years and then beyond, you really see 328 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: somebody grow so much to themselves. Let's talk about this, 329 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,120 Speaker 1: because you went from studying sculpture in college to then 330 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: getting to be who you are, that one of the 331 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: most influential people in the fashion industry and somebody that 332 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 1: so many call a mentor. It's incredible. So like, let's 333 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: talk about how did that happen? Like how did you 334 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: first like walk me through, like when did you get 335 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 1: the call? Did you interview for Parsons? Like how did 336 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 1: you first get the admissions role? 337 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 2: The Parsons people knew me from conferences and we would 338 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 2: probably see each other be in the same room together 339 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 2: maybe two to three times a year. And I had 340 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 2: been been teaching at the Cork Run for five years, 341 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 2: so that was a lot of exposure. And they liked me, 342 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 2: I'm happy to say, and I was in awe of them. 343 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 2: I mean there were Parsons there were in New York. 344 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 2: So they called in the summer of nineteen two to 345 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 2: offer me a teaching position in three D design, and 346 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 2: I said, very flattered, thank you very much. No thank you. 347 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:12,919 Speaker 2: I'm very happy here. Well, in the next year, my 348 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 2: life changed and I didn't know they were to call again, 349 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 2: but they did, and two weeks later I was living 350 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:25,199 Speaker 2: in New York. It was very abrupt, and it was 351 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:32,160 Speaker 2: very intimidating and very difficult. I moved here in August 352 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 2: of nineteen eighty three, the end of August, right before 353 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:38,400 Speaker 2: classes began, and I have to tell you by Thanksgiving. 354 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 2: I thought, I don't think I can do this. I 355 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 2: think I need to go back to Washington. This is 356 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 2: just not working for me. And I had a fellow 357 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 2: teacher who I got to know pretty well, Ellen, who 358 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,719 Speaker 2: said to me, I've lived here my whole life, and 359 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,919 Speaker 2: she said, you have to know something. She said, every 360 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 2: emotion that anyone can experience, they experience here to the 361 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:12,120 Speaker 2: nth degree. It's on steroids, whatever it is. If it's sadness, 362 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 2: it's the saddest anyone's ever been. If they're high, it's 363 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 2: the highest anyone's ever been. So she said, you take 364 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:21,120 Speaker 2: all this, you put in a bowlet, and you mix 365 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 2: it in with a huge amount of sexual libido. And 366 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 2: that's New York. And it was a relief. I thought, Okay, 367 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,399 Speaker 2: I get it, and it was like a long distance 368 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 2: runner hitting the wall. 369 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: Suddenly everything was okay, and now you've grown to love 370 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:44,640 Speaker 1: New York City years later. It's incredible, and I am 371 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:49,160 Speaker 1: so impressed by the people that come from different cities, 372 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,400 Speaker 1: different states and make it in New York City because 373 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: it's not easy. 374 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 2: It's not easy, and a lot of people don't make it. 375 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 2: They make the decision to leave it. It's a tough place, 376 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 2: it really is. But once you do hit the wall, 377 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 2: it spoils you. There's no other place like it, and 378 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 2: it's really wonderful. So let me tell you the fashion 379 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 2: story I met Parsons. I'm teaching three dimensional design to 380 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 2: freshman Foundation year students, so they haven't chosen a major, 381 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 2: so it's I'm teaching across disciplines and I love that. 382 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 2: I mean, I love the fact that the students they 383 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 2: probably knew what they wanted to major in, but they 384 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 2: had not declared a major yet, so it was a 385 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 2: cross disciplinary course. And I was serving on the admissions committee. 386 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,159 Speaker 2: There was must have been something about me that the 387 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 2: dean of the school at that time saw, but a 388 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 2: decision was made to make me associate Jane of the school. 389 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: How old were you at this time? I feel like this. 390 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 2: I moved here when I was thirty. Wow, so I 391 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,719 Speaker 2: was probably forty so young. I didn't know exactly what 392 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 2: the responsibilies went entail, because there was I have to say, 393 00:21:55,920 --> 00:22:00,680 Speaker 2: there was another associate, Jane Leslie Kadman. She was really 394 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:05,120 Speaker 2: the academic dean. And my role, I'll tell you how 395 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 2: I described it. I was the pooper scooper. I was 396 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 2: the person who went into academic departments that were floundering 397 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 2: or having a moment of crisis, and I had to 398 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 2: fix it. We were looking for a new chair of 399 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:22,399 Speaker 2: the fashion department and the department had a crisis of 400 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,640 Speaker 2: leadership of sorts. There had been a chair for twenty 401 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 2: five years when he left, he was replaced by someone 402 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 2: who only lasted three months. It's a big job and 403 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,640 Speaker 2: at the time arguably the most important department of parsons. 404 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 2: So we hired someone that no one was very keen about, 405 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 2: but he had a high profile, and when the senior administration, 406 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 2: the three of us came to terms with the fact 407 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,400 Speaker 2: that he really couldn't do the job, the ridiculous decision 408 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,439 Speaker 2: was made that I would be his shadow, that I 409 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 2: would go to the department with him and I would 410 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 2: actually do the work. So that was August of two 411 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 2: thousand and I'd been there for maybe three months, three 412 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 2: months as a common denominator in many of these things, 413 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,679 Speaker 2: and I wrote a State of the Union to the 414 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:30,479 Speaker 2: dean saying, this place is hemorrhaging. This place is the 415 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 2: biggest mess I could ever imagine. And I'll summarize it 416 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 2: for you. It was a culture of infantilization. The faculty 417 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 2: were infantilized by the administration and by this program called 418 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 2: the Designer Critic program, which is a whole other story. 419 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 2: The students were infantilized by the faculty. Other than the faculty, 420 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 2: no one had a voice. You go in into a critique, 421 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 2: the students aren't participating. They're ciphers. They're just sitting there 422 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 2: while the teacher carries on and on and on. But 423 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 2: not about the clothes, not about the design things like 424 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 2: you know, if you put a little more shadow under 425 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 2: this eye, it's going to make the face pop. I'm thinking, 426 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,360 Speaker 2: who gives the damn about the face? Yeah? I care 427 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 2: about the clothes. What's happening here? Yeah, So, in addition 428 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 2: to the place hemorrhaging, I said this is not a 429 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 2: design school. I said, this place is a dressmaking school. 430 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 2: And I was intent upon making change. And I said 431 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 2: to the dean, we can't bring someone in from the outside. 432 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,400 Speaker 2: It will take them God only knows how much time 433 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 2: to understand how wrong this is. Because the school had 434 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 2: such a great reputation the department did and and more 435 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 2: than seventy percent of the design of the designers on 436 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 2: Seventh Avenue where persons educated. But I also said, this 437 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 2: is like the monkeys and the typewriters. You give a 438 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 2: thousand monkeys, a thousand typewriters for a thousand years, and 439 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 2: someone's going to write the next great novel. And also 440 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 2: that first there wasn't much that I could do. The 441 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 2: budget set, the faculty contracts are out, the curriculum set. 442 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,439 Speaker 2: I mean, you really can't do anything except observe and 443 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 2: ask a ton of questions. And most of the questions 444 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 2: I would ask the faculty have the following answer, Well, 445 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 2: that's the way we've always done it. Oh that's the 446 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,360 Speaker 2: other thing. I was the only person who wasn't Parsons educated, 447 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 2: so they all were regurgitating what they'd experienced. Oh, also, 448 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,680 Speaker 2: it's two thousand, there's not a computer in the department. No, no, 449 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 2: we don't believe in that that newfangled stuff. There wasn't 450 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 2: a fashion history class. Oh, we don't want the students 451 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 2: to be influenced. What we have a responsibility to give 452 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 2: them a history of their discipline. What are you talking about? 453 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,199 Speaker 2: So for the students coming, the new students coming in 454 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 2: the following year two thousand, two thousand and one, Sorry, 455 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,160 Speaker 2: I spent the summer with a group of faculty rewriting 456 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:03,920 Speaker 2: the entire program. And before doing that, we'll go back 457 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 2: to the two thousand and two thousand and one academic year. 458 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 2: I met with the rising seniors, the students who were 459 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 2: then juniors, and there was this very well known program 460 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 2: called the Designer Critic program that would pair, well not 461 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 2: really pair. Six to eight students would work with Donna 462 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:28,880 Speaker 2: Karen Mark Jacobs time forward, and that Designer Critic would 463 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 2: oversee the development of a collection. I said, you've all 464 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:36,679 Speaker 2: come here, I'm certain revering the Designer Critic program and 465 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 2: eager to participate in it. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. 466 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 2: So how would you respond if I were to tell 467 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 2: you that I wanted to go away? There was dead silence. Well, 468 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 2: don't you want to know what you'd be doing. Yeah, 469 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:52,880 Speaker 2: what would we be doing? And at this point there's 470 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:57,120 Speaker 2: seventy students who are seniors. You will design and execute 471 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,679 Speaker 2: a collection of ten to twelve looks over the course 472 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 2: of these two semesters, and that will be your senior 473 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 2: year experience. Well, they were ecstatic, they were cheering, they 474 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 2: were applauding, they were on their feet. I said, wait 475 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:16,400 Speaker 2: a minute, who's terrified. No hands went them. I said, 476 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 2: you should all be terrified because in fact, what I'm 477 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 2: tossing at you or throwing at you is something that 478 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 2: you're really underprepared for. And I said, but I believe 479 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 2: in you, and I believe in your aptitude and your capabilities, 480 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 2: but you have been under challenged. Everyone's been working hard, 481 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 2: but no one's been working smart. 482 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: You really had to get into the weeds and say 483 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: this is what's not working, this is what is working, 484 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: and be able to implement that when you're dealing with 485 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 1: teachers that have been there for so many time, I know, 486 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: it's very hard to Well, it's change. 487 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,439 Speaker 2: It's changing a culture, which is really I mean, it's 488 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,439 Speaker 2: easy in a way to change course content, but changing 489 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,959 Speaker 2: a culture, especially a culture that is all about in vantilization, 490 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,359 Speaker 2: where the faculty void is the only voice that the 491 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 2: students ever hear, and they never hear their own. So 492 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 2: I have to say part of what propelled me for 493 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 2: was an anger about how how could this have happened 494 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 2: and why is it being perpetuated? And we have and 495 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 2: also my huge respect for the students. We have a 496 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 2: responsibility to these young people and we need to do 497 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 2: what's best for them. And I think the fact that 498 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 2: I'm not a fashion designer and didn't have a fashion 499 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 2: education was a huge asset because I didn't have an 500 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 2: extra grind. I didn't have a particular point of view 501 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 2: other than quality. I didn't have a taste other than quality, 502 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 2: as opposed to will I'm going to make you into 503 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 2: a mini me. In some ways it corresponded with Project Runway. 504 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 2: Project Runway was born in two thousand and four. 505 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 1: Four years after becoming the chairman of the fashion department WOW. 506 00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 2: So Project Runway couldn't have happened in the nineties. And 507 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 2: when we think about American fashion up until nineteen ninety ish, 508 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 2: it was a very narrowly defined esthetic swath and by 509 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 2: the time we reach the late eighties, it's Donna Karen, 510 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 2: It's Calvin Klein, It's Ralph Lauren, and that's about it, 511 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 2: at least in America. Then American fashion goes into a 512 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 2: period of crisis, a crisis of identity. It doesn't know 513 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 2: who it is or what it is. And when it 514 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 2: comes out of it and the second half of the nineties, 515 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 2: it suddenly is a completely different place. It's a place 516 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 2: that once to culture or once to cultivate and nurture 517 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 2: young entrepreneurial designers. That allowed me to say, well, this 518 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 2: is what we have to do with this department. We 519 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 2: need to be educating students who can lead this department 520 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 2: as designers, not as assistant designers. This was such a 521 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 2: new approach for the department that a lot of students 522 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 2: were very frozen. They just didn't know what to do. 523 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 2: And for me, unsticking them getting them out of that 524 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 2: frozen state was relatively easy. Ask them, who's the customer 525 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 2: who's going to wear these designs? And that really helped enormously. 526 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 2: Who are you putting them on? If this is at 527 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 2: Sacksmith Avenue, who's hanging next to it? So what department 528 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:38,719 Speaker 2: are you in? But for the most part, those students 529 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 2: were few and far between. Most of the of the 530 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,239 Speaker 2: students knew what they wanted to do and who they 531 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 2: wanted to be. I have to tell you one other 532 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 2: thing about my evolution with fashion. 533 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I need to know because in two thousand, like 534 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: what was your relationship with fashion? 535 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 2: I was wearing baggy Brooks Brothers suits. 536 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: Okay, and now you're so known for your. 537 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 2: That's a whole other story though, so I will say proudly. 538 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 2: Diane von Furstenberg has been a dear friend for a 539 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 2: long time before fashion because she was a board member. 540 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 2: She was a board member of Parsons and I was 541 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 2: managing the board. So I got to know her well 542 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 2: and we liked each other and we would got together 543 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 2: for launch and she's just a great person. So the 544 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 2: first time she came to see me in the fashion department, 545 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 2: we're sitting in my office. I'm borrowing a phrase from 546 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 2: I Love Lucy. She looked like she just walked into 547 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 2: the Grand ballroom and smelled raw cauliflower cooking. I looked 548 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 2: at her and I said, what's the matter. She gestured, 549 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 2: she said this, She said, this isn't working. 550 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 1: That's me right now, Like he mis setting guys, everybody 551 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: looking that. 552 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 2: Is me right now. No, it's not. You look stunning 553 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 2: and adorable. She said, you need to be more mom. 554 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 2: She said, you need to be more modern for the students, 555 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 2: for the industry, and for yourself. So I had a 556 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 2: major transformation. I started wearing all black and I got 557 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 2: a black turtleneck sweater, a black leather blazer, black pants, 558 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 2: and that was my uniform and I wore it all 559 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 2: the time and she approved. But my real fashion epiphany 560 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 2: was completely unrelated in a way. I had a minor 561 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 2: role in the two thousand and nine or was it eleven, 562 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 2: I think two thousand and nine movie The Smurfs. Rita 563 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 2: Ryak was the costumer for the show. So we had 564 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 2: a conversation before we started filming and she said, oh, 565 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 2: you're tim gun. I wouldn't dream of telling you how 566 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 2: to dress. So I brought my own wardrobe, of course, 567 00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 2: which I always do, and we taped that day and 568 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 2: she called me that night and she said I just 569 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 2: looked at the rushes. She said, your wardrobe isn't good enough. 570 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 2: I was mortified. I was mortified. 571 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: She said she so excited that I'd be like transform 572 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 1: it for me. 573 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 2: No. No, so she said tomorrow. We weren't taping the 574 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 2: next day. She said, meet me at this tailor at 575 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 2: such and such a time. So I did, and I'm 576 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 2: in the dressing room and I'm looking at the labels. 577 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 2: Sure it was four hundred and fifty dollars, the tie 578 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 2: was one hundred and fifty. This is two thousand and 579 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 2: nine suits, three thousand dollars. I said, I'm not wearing this. 580 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 2: I'm not putting these things on. Put them on. You 581 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 2: put them on. She's screaming at me. And everything had 582 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 2: to do with pattern mixing, and I said, I look 583 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 2: like a circus clown. This is ridiculous. I'm not going 584 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 2: to go on camera dress like this. You are, You're 585 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 2: going to do it. So it's a bit like hitting 586 00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 2: the wall is a long distance runner. Yeah, I hit 587 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 2: the wall and I thought, I really like this. This, 588 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 2: this is good. The trouble is, once the show was over, 589 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 2: how do I sustain this? I'm that wardrobe I loved. 590 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 2: Now I have to shop for it. So I would 591 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 2: go to Barney's and Burgdorf's and Sex and I would 592 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 2: feel physically ill when I left, having spent so much money. 593 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, you grew up with a humble backgrounds and the 594 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: FBI parents are in the government. And then it's like, 595 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:32,880 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, fashion is expensive, right trus Like 596 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 1: what is netaporte? What is forward? 597 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 2: Well at this time, Eric Wilson, who was then fashion 598 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,840 Speaker 2: critic for The Times, wrote an article about this new store. 599 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 2: No one pays me to say any of this. They 600 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 2: don't give me free stuff. A story called suit Supply 601 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 2: originated in the Netherlands that had been in Europe for 602 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,439 Speaker 2: thirty years. They just opened a store in New York. 603 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 2: He said, if you're that guy going to Burgdorf some 604 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,799 Speaker 2: barneys and sacks, you need to check this out. I thought, oh, 605 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 2: come on, this is too good to be true. So 606 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 2: I went to suit Supply. I was in awe and 607 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 2: totally enraptured by the place and by the prices. I mean, 608 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 2: it was really affordable. 609 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,319 Speaker 1: They are they still are. They're great prices for men. 610 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and every single salesperson is an expert in fit. 611 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 2: They have to spend a month or more in the 612 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 2: Netherlands with the tailors, so they won't let you leave 613 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:32,360 Speaker 2: something off the rack. You've got to put it on. 614 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,239 Speaker 2: They have to see how you look at it. And 615 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 2: my whole wardrobe. Now, practically the only thing I'm wearing 616 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,320 Speaker 2: that suit supply are the pants and the shoes. 617 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 1: I love these pants. They're so cool because when you 618 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: look closely at them, they have like little specks. 619 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:47,240 Speaker 2: Of color orange and green. 620 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 1: And when you were doing Project Runway, you didn't feel 621 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 1: like you were as fashionable? Then, oh well really, well. 622 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,800 Speaker 2: I was wearing what I would wear to a design class. 623 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:02,080 Speaker 1: Okay, so you had your uniform. 624 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. And also I was never intended to be on camera. 625 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:07,280 Speaker 2: I was the consultant to the show. 626 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 1: Let's talk about that, Like, how do you go from 627 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: dean of the School of Fashion at Parsons to then 628 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,759 Speaker 1: being so involved in pop culture with Project Runway and 629 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 1: you know the Smurfs? Well, you designed enough of for Barbie. 630 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 2: I don't know if anyone thought that Project Runway would 631 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 2: end up being a hit show. I certainly didn't. 632 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 1: What did it originate from? Like, was it the Parsons students? 633 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 2: No? No, no, no, not okay. The producers of the show, 634 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 2: Jane Lipsits and Dan cut Forth, called me in January 635 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 2: of two thousand and four and they introduced themselves and 636 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:46,280 Speaker 2: they said they were doing this new show about fashion 637 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 2: and that people in the industry said that they should 638 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 2: talk to me, so I asked them for more details, 639 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 2: and when I heard fashion reality, I said, you know, 640 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 2: this industry has enough trouble without that, I'm really not interested. 641 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,960 Speaker 2: They said, we'll give us ten minutes. So I googled 642 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,359 Speaker 2: them and found out that they were the Project green 643 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 2: Light producers, Matt Damon and Ben Affleck about making movies. 644 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 2: Thought well, that's a show that has a seriousness of 645 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 2: purpose and integrity, and let's see what the conversation is like. 646 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,359 Speaker 2: So I really liked them and what they had to say, 647 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 2: and they wanted to use real fashion designers, not pick 648 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 2: people around them off the street, saying well, we'll make 649 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,880 Speaker 2: you into a fashion designer, and I got excited about 650 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 2: the whole idea. Three to four months went by, I 651 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,800 Speaker 2: didn't hear a thing from them, and I thought, okay, whatever. 652 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:37,799 Speaker 2: Then I heard from them they said, we really want 653 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 2: you to be our consultant, and I should add unpaid, 654 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,239 Speaker 2: as was my role for the first two years. I 655 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:47,760 Speaker 2: didn't think anyone got paid for reality television. So I 656 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 2: signed on to this project, which was much bigger than 657 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 2: I had actually been able to wrap my brain around. 658 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 2: But that's understandable. 659 00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 1: I mean talk about a role that is like the 660 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 1: perfect fit for you, down to like your ethos and 661 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 1: what you're all about. Right. 662 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:09,600 Speaker 2: Well, I should add though, during all this consulting and planning, 663 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,960 Speaker 2: but my role in the show didn't exist. There was 664 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 2: no role. 665 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:15,879 Speaker 1: You ended up almost being like the host of the show, 666 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 1: right or you were the guy that was always there, 667 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: like commenting on the designs and being like make it work, 668 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 1: and like here's the amount of time you have left. 669 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:29,759 Speaker 2: Well, it happened this way. It's today. The designers are 670 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 2: arriving tomorrow. So the producers came to me and I 671 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,959 Speaker 2: could tell they were uneasy. They asked me, how would 672 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:42,400 Speaker 2: you feel about going into the workroom and asking the 673 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 2: designers what they're doing? And I said, That's how I've 674 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:49,279 Speaker 2: spent most of my life. Easy. And I was very 675 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,799 Speaker 2: aware of the camera placement. There was a camera on me, 676 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:55,479 Speaker 2: there was a camera on the designer, and I thought, 677 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 2: all right, I got it. As long as I have 678 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,920 Speaker 2: the designer responding to me, no one needs to see me, 679 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 2: no one needs to hear my voice. And I, honest 680 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:05,840 Speaker 2: to god, never dreamed i'd be in the cut of 681 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 2: the show. 682 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:08,960 Speaker 1: You have such a natural charisma. You were funny. They 683 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,600 Speaker 1: probably thought we got to keep them in well. 684 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:13,799 Speaker 2: And I have to say I didn't know what the 685 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:15,960 Speaker 2: show would actually look like. I mean, I knew my 686 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 2: role in it, and I knew what happened on the 687 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:22,960 Speaker 2: runway with the judging. I didn't know what was going 688 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 2: on at the Atlas apartments. I thought, maybe this is 689 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:30,360 Speaker 2: all about sexual escapades. Who knows. And there was one taping. 690 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,760 Speaker 2: I was always in the Parsons auditorium during the judging, 691 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 2: and I would say, in the literal and metaphorical dark, 692 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,279 Speaker 2: and there's a woman standing next to me in the 693 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,360 Speaker 2: literal and metaphorical dark, and I didn't know who she was. 694 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 2: And it was early in the season, so this person 695 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 2: certainly didn't know who I was. And we're watching the 696 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 2: judging and she turns to me and she whispers, who's 697 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,560 Speaker 2: going to want to watch this? I said, oh god, 698 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,279 Speaker 2: I said, you were roborating my worst fears that this 699 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:06,239 Speaker 2: is just going to be so boring and it'll be 700 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:07,840 Speaker 2: like watching paint dry. 701 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,560 Speaker 1: Not what anybody wants to hear when they's just starting out. 702 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,919 Speaker 2: So after the taping that day, I asked someone, who 703 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 2: is that crumpy woman the President Bravo, great Lawrence alasnak Oh. 704 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 1: Oh gosh, Well, I feel like there's a lot of 705 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,400 Speaker 1: nerves that go into like a new show, right, So 706 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:28,759 Speaker 1: I giving her some credit there. 707 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I never dreamed there'd be a season two, 708 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:36,000 Speaker 2: let alone the last season Heidi and I did together 709 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:36,960 Speaker 2: was season sixteen. 710 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,840 Speaker 1: How quickly though into this season and into maybe watching 711 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,200 Speaker 1: back the episodes as they were rolling out, where you like, oh, 712 00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:44,960 Speaker 1: this is going to be. 713 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,120 Speaker 2: A hit again in all sincerity, and never dreamed there 714 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,640 Speaker 2: be a season two. And we weren't picked up right 715 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:54,520 Speaker 2: away either, And then there was all this anxiety about 716 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,239 Speaker 2: season two, and I'll tell you why, and I would 717 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,239 Speaker 2: never have occurred to me. The anxiety was all from 718 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:06,359 Speaker 2: the producers and the network because with season one, when 719 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,640 Speaker 2: we're casting the show, when we're looking for designers, nobody 720 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:13,400 Speaker 2: knew what it was, so they came unencumbered with what 721 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:18,320 Speaker 2: the show is actually about. For season two, we've shown 722 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 2: our hand, the cards are all out on the table, 723 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,920 Speaker 2: so they did know what the show was about, and 724 00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,480 Speaker 2: there was just tremendous concern that this meant that there 725 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:34,560 Speaker 2: would be contrivances and expectations that we would have to 726 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:37,160 Speaker 2: meet in a certain way. But then by season three 727 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:41,120 Speaker 2: and then four and five, all that dissipated. 728 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:43,879 Speaker 1: I'm curious because you were very known, as I kind 729 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 1: of said before, for your make it work catchphrase? How 730 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 1: did that come to be? Is that just something you 731 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:50,239 Speaker 1: said and all of a sudden people were like, Oh, 732 00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:51,759 Speaker 1: I like that. He says this all the time. 733 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,319 Speaker 2: I can tell you when I first said it. I 734 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:59,719 Speaker 2: first said it in a fashion class. To the year 735 00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,839 Speaker 2: was it's two thousand and one, two thousand and two. 736 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:11,560 Speaker 2: I was working with seniors. It was a six hour 737 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:16,239 Speaker 2: a week class in concept development for thirty weeks. It 738 00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,399 Speaker 2: was full in spring semester. I had a student who 739 00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,800 Speaker 2: had been working on this since September. It's now April, 740 00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:26,239 Speaker 2: so we have a month and a half to go. 741 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,600 Speaker 2: And she said to me, I'm changing everything. What are 742 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,520 Speaker 2: you talking about? You're changing everything. I don't like it anymore. 743 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,359 Speaker 2: I said, you're working on this in September. You've been 744 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:39,560 Speaker 2: working on this for months. What's the problem. She said, 745 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:41,960 Speaker 2: I don't know, and she's shrugging. I just don't like it. 746 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:44,200 Speaker 2: I said, well, you know what you're gonna do. You're 747 00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:49,839 Speaker 2: gonna sit here you're going to offer a diagnosis of 748 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,319 Speaker 2: what it is that's wrong and what it is you 749 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:55,480 Speaker 2: want to fix, and then you're going to offer up 750 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,719 Speaker 2: a prescription for how to make it work. I said, 751 00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,640 Speaker 2: you're not a band, and I said, also, this is 752 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,839 Speaker 2: for your sake. If I let you just drop this 753 00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,600 Speaker 2: and start all over again, what will you really know 754 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,080 Speaker 2: about what went wrong? But if you have to offer 755 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,920 Speaker 2: up a diagnosis and a prescription for making it work, 756 00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,920 Speaker 2: think of what you now have in your own physical 757 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:22,120 Speaker 2: and mental toolbox problem solving skills that you wouldn't have 758 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:22,800 Speaker 2: had otherwise. 759 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:27,800 Speaker 1: You are the perfect example for what a teacher should be, 760 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,239 Speaker 1: because not only are you a visionary for how a 761 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,240 Speaker 1: school and department should operate in the most effective way, 762 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:35,680 Speaker 1: but you also are the type of person that takes 763 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:37,840 Speaker 1: such an individual interest in someone. 764 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:40,759 Speaker 2: Well, thank you, it's what I mean, that's what I 765 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:45,719 Speaker 2: would do. I would really channel them. And I'm not 766 00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,799 Speaker 2: an enabler. I mean, I'm someone who wants to. I mean, 767 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,080 Speaker 2: I don't like throwing up roadblocks, but at the same time, 768 00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 2: I know it's best. I mean I think I know 769 00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:56,080 Speaker 2: it's best. 770 00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,239 Speaker 1: Not always You're doing whatever it takes to help them. 771 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:01,600 Speaker 1: Kind of push through they're going through, and there's different 772 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:03,640 Speaker 1: kind of tactics on doing that. You know what I 773 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,040 Speaker 1: think you always got a lot of credit for on 774 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 1: the show as well, was you were always so good 775 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:12,200 Speaker 1: at delivering certain news in a positive way. And I 776 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:14,520 Speaker 1: feel like that is what makes a really good leader, 777 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:16,880 Speaker 1: and that's what makes a good mentor So I'm curious, 778 00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,279 Speaker 1: like even for me, like as somebody that manages a team, like, 779 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:24,200 Speaker 1: what is your advice to us for how to properly manage. 780 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:28,120 Speaker 2: With bad news? I rehearse it in my head and 781 00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,920 Speaker 2: I think, how would I react to this message if 782 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:35,360 Speaker 2: it were delivered in this way? And if it's very negative, 783 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,560 Speaker 2: then I rethink. But it's about thinking about how's that 784 00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:43,080 Speaker 2: person going to react to this? And I have to 785 00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:48,160 Speaker 2: say my critiques on Project Runway evolved in the following way. 786 00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:57,640 Speaker 2: I went from telling the designers things to pummeling them 787 00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:02,680 Speaker 2: with enough questions that they they would see what I'm seeing. 788 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:07,480 Speaker 2: I would take the designer away from that camera and 789 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,279 Speaker 2: bring them around to where I'm standing and say, I 790 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:13,680 Speaker 2: want you to see it from my point of view. 791 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,040 Speaker 2: Look at this garment and tell me what you see. Oh, 792 00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:22,600 Speaker 2: I see what you're talking about or what you mean. Yeah, 793 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:26,520 Speaker 2: the PAM is really janky. So if they see it 794 00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,040 Speaker 2: and I don't have to say it, it's music to 795 00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,880 Speaker 2: my ears. I couldn't be happier. And people have asked me, two, 796 00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:40,040 Speaker 2: do I feel guilty when a designer goes home? Why? Well, 797 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:43,520 Speaker 2: is there something you should or shouldn't have said to them? 798 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,360 Speaker 2: I said, you know, I don't think about it that way, 799 00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:51,160 Speaker 2: just as I would never consider taking credit if they win. 800 00:45:52,040 --> 00:46:00,320 Speaker 2: You know, No, we're gonna have to just associate yourself. 801 00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:04,040 Speaker 1: I love how you said. And I was reading about 802 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:05,680 Speaker 1: this and I noted it down because I was like, 803 00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:08,239 Speaker 1: that's so interesting. One of your ethos that you've talked 804 00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,799 Speaker 1: about fashion wise is that fashion should be expressive but 805 00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:12,759 Speaker 1: also functional. 806 00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:17,759 Speaker 2: Yeah. I had a dear friend, now departed. She was 807 00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,840 Speaker 2: at Vogue for thirty seven years, the last seventeen of 808 00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,959 Speaker 2: which she was editor in chief. Before Anna Winter Grace 809 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:28,200 Speaker 2: Marabella that I brought her in every September to meet 810 00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:32,200 Speaker 2: with the new fashion students, and she knew why. I said, 811 00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:34,920 Speaker 2: I want you to do your grace thing. And people 812 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,040 Speaker 2: would look at her and think, who's this old lady? 813 00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:40,520 Speaker 2: And she was an old lady, but a very chic one. 814 00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,520 Speaker 2: She would tell them enthusiastically that they're the future and 815 00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:48,440 Speaker 2: fashion needs them. And she would add, I have two 816 00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:54,960 Speaker 2: pieces of advice. Don't make dumb clothes and don't make jokes. 817 00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:59,160 Speaker 2: So they'd be looking at each other, Grace, tell them 818 00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:02,359 Speaker 2: what you mean, dumb clothes. No one needs you to 819 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,120 Speaker 2: design a T shirt. There are plenty of them out there. 820 00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,759 Speaker 2: Don't go there. Now, this is Grace's particular point of view, 821 00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,960 Speaker 2: not necessarily mine. Jokes, she said, the things that walk 822 00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:15,840 Speaker 2: the runways during Paris Couture Week. She said, think about 823 00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:20,880 Speaker 2: what is between dumb clothes and jokes. There's a huge 824 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:23,680 Speaker 2: playing field and there are not many people who design 825 00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:28,040 Speaker 2: well for it. It's usually dumb or a joke. And 826 00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:32,399 Speaker 2: I took that to hard in my own way as 827 00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:34,440 Speaker 2: a teacher in the fashion department, and I would say 828 00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:37,560 Speaker 2: to my students, I don't care what you design, and 829 00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:40,319 Speaker 2: I really didn't. As long as your model can get 830 00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:41,600 Speaker 2: into a taxi, it. 831 00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:43,400 Speaker 1: Makes a lot of sense. Yeah, And I feel like 832 00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,320 Speaker 1: there's oftentimes, yeah, you see a lot of outfits on 833 00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:48,080 Speaker 1: the runway where I'm like, well, it doesn't but I 834 00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:50,279 Speaker 1: guess runway fashion is very different because they're throwing a 835 00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:52,319 Speaker 1: ton of layers on them often. 836 00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:54,400 Speaker 2: Is At the same time, I have respect for the 837 00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:59,719 Speaker 2: cture collections, but I think fashion should be accessible. 838 00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,120 Speaker 1: What do you think is the secret to looking effortlessly 839 00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,120 Speaker 1: chic walking around New York City? 840 00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:09,960 Speaker 2: I have a mantra about this has nothing to do 841 00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:15,200 Speaker 2: with individual items of apparel. It's about the following silhouette 842 00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:20,600 Speaker 2: proportion and fit. Silouet proportion. Fit pertains to anything an 843 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:25,960 Speaker 2: evening gown, a tuxedo, workout clothes. You want clothes that 844 00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:31,040 Speaker 2: follow your natural silhouette, that don't cascade away from you 845 00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:37,320 Speaker 2: or squeeze you like a wetsuit. Proportion. I'm always talking 846 00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:39,879 Speaker 2: about thirds, and you epitomize this too. You're one third 847 00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,759 Speaker 2: on top, two thirds on the bottom. We don't want 848 00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:45,480 Speaker 2: to cut ourselves in half, which is why I object 849 00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:49,680 Speaker 2: so vehemently to men and the untucked shirt, as they're 850 00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,720 Speaker 2: cutting themselves in half and it's not a pleasing proportion, 851 00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:57,160 Speaker 2: and you just look broader, wider, you look dumpier, and 852 00:48:57,200 --> 00:48:59,719 Speaker 2: that pertains to fit. It's the same thing clothes that 853 00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:02,040 Speaker 2: I actually fit us. I'm not a fan of the 854 00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:06,239 Speaker 2: baggy jans or baggy clothes in general. I just think 855 00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:09,160 Speaker 2: we look like an un made bed. It's not a 856 00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:09,959 Speaker 2: flattering look. 857 00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,759 Speaker 1: I do really like that the more tailored look is 858 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,799 Speaker 1: having a resurgence too, because I agree. Like I even 859 00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:18,200 Speaker 1: remember when I was at FIT and I was not 860 00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:19,960 Speaker 1: at FAT when I was taking classes there. As a 861 00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:23,000 Speaker 1: high schooler, I took a lot of fashion design classes 862 00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:27,080 Speaker 1: and my favorite eras to draw inspiration from. We're always 863 00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:30,239 Speaker 1: the fifties and the sixties. I am so obsessed with 864 00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:32,839 Speaker 1: that style of clothes and I always have been that. 865 00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,320 Speaker 1: It's so fun now seeing that maker resurgence and even 866 00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:39,400 Speaker 1: like the little Bob tair and you know, the capri 867 00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:43,560 Speaker 1: pants for women and loafers, Like it's amazing because it's 868 00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:45,480 Speaker 1: so classic and it's so like Americana. 869 00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:51,239 Speaker 2: No, it's you're absolutely right, But it's fashion's pendulum. The 870 00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:52,759 Speaker 2: bagginess is going to come back. 871 00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:54,840 Speaker 1: It's going to come back. Yeah, isn't that interesting? Like 872 00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:57,640 Speaker 1: fashion really has a way of just recoming back. 873 00:49:57,800 --> 00:49:59,960 Speaker 2: Well, it's the culture of retail too. They want us 874 00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:01,920 Speaker 2: to buy new things, and they want us to believe 875 00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:04,399 Speaker 2: that we're out of style if we don't have these 876 00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,320 Speaker 2: new things. And I really believe in finding a uniform 877 00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:09,040 Speaker 2: and just sticking with it. 878 00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:11,600 Speaker 1: I love that. I think also like as I've gotten older, 879 00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:14,360 Speaker 1: it's like when you're younger and you want to be trendy, 880 00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:16,799 Speaker 1: you want the fashion, the cute going out of it. 881 00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:18,680 Speaker 1: And now I feel like as soon as you get 882 00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:20,560 Speaker 1: to like a certain like year later twenties, it's like 883 00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:22,680 Speaker 1: you're an adult and it's time to like, no more 884 00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:26,280 Speaker 1: crop tops, you know, no more rip jeans, Like let's 885 00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:28,439 Speaker 1: you know, really tailor it. And it's been fun because 886 00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:30,280 Speaker 1: then you start buying pieces that you'll have forever. 887 00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:33,919 Speaker 2: And also you have this you'll have this confidence because 888 00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:35,240 Speaker 2: you know you look your best. 889 00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:39,000 Speaker 1: I know you've talked before about things that have changed 890 00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:41,400 Speaker 1: within the world of fashion, so I'm curious, like, what 891 00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:43,040 Speaker 1: do you think has changed for the better in the 892 00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:46,359 Speaker 1: world of fashion, and what do you think still needs work. 893 00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:50,279 Speaker 2: While I like the notion that fashion can be affordable 894 00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:54,640 Speaker 2: and accessible, and I think it should be, there's too 895 00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:57,640 Speaker 2: much of it. There's just too much stuff out there, 896 00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:00,600 Speaker 2: and it's so wasteful and it's so bad for for 897 00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:04,279 Speaker 2: the environment. And the last class that I told it 898 00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:08,480 Speaker 2: Emerson was a of course in fashion and sustainability and 899 00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:12,400 Speaker 2: the premise was to help solve this dilemma. How do 900 00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:15,239 Speaker 2: we get people to stop buying so much stuff? I 901 00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:18,160 Speaker 2: think people probably know what I have the most disdained for, 902 00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:21,680 Speaker 2: but now it's ubiquitous. So what do I know? How 903 00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:24,040 Speaker 2: did the legging become a pant? 904 00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:26,960 Speaker 1: I know, look at me right now, You're in workout 905 00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:30,240 Speaker 1: when this is completely workoutwear right right for me? Yes, 906 00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:33,080 Speaker 1: you're not going to the opera, no very much. So 907 00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:35,000 Speaker 1: not wait, I just have to call it really quickly 908 00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:37,680 Speaker 1: for our listeners. Okay, Tim and I are sitting across 909 00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:39,960 Speaker 1: from each other, and I wish I came dressed up. 910 00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:42,239 Speaker 1: This is like so embarrassing for me because but I 911 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:44,799 Speaker 1: running interview show. I'm always in workout wear. But you 912 00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:47,279 Speaker 1: guys that know me see me on Instagram, you see 913 00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:50,120 Speaker 1: my posts. I love dressing cute when I can. But yeah, 914 00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:52,480 Speaker 1: like my uniform because of the running Interview show has 915 00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:55,239 Speaker 1: become like workoutwear. And I'm the brand that I wear 916 00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:57,160 Speaker 1: all the time as Adidas, because that's our partner. But 917 00:51:57,200 --> 00:51:59,200 Speaker 1: we are sitting across from each other and Tim is 918 00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:01,239 Speaker 1: in the most person you know, you guys know how 919 00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:02,440 Speaker 1: brown is the color? 920 00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:02,759 Speaker 2: Right now? 921 00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:06,160 Speaker 1: Everybody's obsessed with chocolate brown, just all shades of brown, 922 00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:08,320 Speaker 1: and you are wearing the most perfect outfit. 923 00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:09,520 Speaker 2: Oh, you're too kind. 924 00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:13,719 Speaker 1: Got a perfect light brown turtleneck sweater on pants that 925 00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:16,960 Speaker 1: are what material is it like? Yeah, tweed tweed pants 926 00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:20,360 Speaker 1: that have like little specks of color but they're brown. 927 00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:23,719 Speaker 1: And then bite the perfect loafers, so do your outfit is. 928 00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:26,279 Speaker 2: I'm not crazy about my socks. They're way too dark, 929 00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:29,239 Speaker 2: but that's the only socks I could find. On the 930 00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:34,680 Speaker 2: topic of what I have the most disdain for, it 931 00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:38,160 Speaker 2: goes back to my theory about the not my theory, 932 00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,960 Speaker 2: my adage about the monkey House at the Zoo. When 933 00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:43,640 Speaker 2: you first entered the monkey House at the Zoo, you shriek, 934 00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:48,000 Speaker 2: this place stinks, And after about twenty minutes you think 935 00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:51,520 Speaker 2: it's not so bad. And after another ten minutes you think, 936 00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:54,719 Speaker 2: what smell that anyone new walking into the monkey house 937 00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:58,359 Speaker 2: shrieks this place stinks. You know, this was the case 938 00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:02,400 Speaker 2: with leggings. Someone put on a pair of leggings, walked 939 00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:05,360 Speaker 2: by the mirror and said, I can't go out dress 940 00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:09,759 Speaker 2: like this. Twenty minutes later they walk by and they 941 00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:14,200 Speaker 2: think it's not so bad, and ten minutes later they 942 00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:17,480 Speaker 2: walk by the mirror and they say, I look hot. No. 943 00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:19,960 Speaker 1: Leggings really are a phenomenon. And I was asking one 944 00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,239 Speaker 1: of my friends who's a stylist in the city, and 945 00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:24,000 Speaker 1: I said to her, what do you think is the 946 00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:25,320 Speaker 1: style of our generation? 947 00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:25,560 Speaker 2: Right? 948 00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:27,319 Speaker 1: Because you can look back to the eighties and it's 949 00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:28,880 Speaker 1: the big hairs and the big slaves. 950 00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:30,520 Speaker 2: Oh, the eighties were the worst, right. 951 00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:33,080 Speaker 1: The nineties were so chic with like the you know, 952 00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,400 Speaker 1: the Emperor cut dresses and just so many different styles. 953 00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:38,000 Speaker 1: And then I said the sixties and seventies I loved. 954 00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:40,440 Speaker 1: It's like the tailored outfits, the pencil skirts. And I 955 00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:41,759 Speaker 1: was like, what do you think it is for us? 956 00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:45,279 Speaker 1: And she goes, it's at leisure, yeah, and I'm like, 957 00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:47,880 Speaker 1: that is such a bummer. That is ath leisure. But 958 00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:50,040 Speaker 1: it is like for our generation, it really was ath leisure. 959 00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:51,759 Speaker 1: And I do think like gen Z and Jen Alf 960 00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:55,040 Speaker 1: are bringing back different styles right now, and you don't 961 00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:58,239 Speaker 1: see them ass frequently in ath leisure. But yeah, it 962 00:53:58,320 --> 00:53:59,959 Speaker 1: is interesting. It's very street style. 963 00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:04,320 Speaker 2: And I'll add this about what's good. I'm speaking from 964 00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:10,160 Speaker 2: a viewpoint of a New Yorker. You can wear anything here, 965 00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:16,040 Speaker 2: absolutely anything. And no one looks as scance and I 966 00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:18,040 Speaker 2: think that's a very positive thing as opposed to what 967 00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:22,480 Speaker 2: I said earlier about the narrow, very narrowly defined esthetic 968 00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:26,000 Speaker 2: swath that America used to be. If you didn't fit 969 00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:28,919 Speaker 2: into this mold, you just didn't fit in. And here, 970 00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:31,080 Speaker 2: at least I don't know what it's like in Kansas City, 971 00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:36,319 Speaker 2: but here you can wear anything and the world accepts you. 972 00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:37,719 Speaker 2: And that's a good thing. 973 00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:40,400 Speaker 1: It is just a place where everything is acceptable and 974 00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:41,399 Speaker 1: nothing is looked down upon. 975 00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:45,880 Speaker 2: And I'll add this about the responsibility that each of 976 00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:48,200 Speaker 2: us has for how we present ourselves to the world. 977 00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:52,200 Speaker 2: It's the semiotics of clothes and grooming. How we present 978 00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:55,040 Speaker 2: ourselves to the world is how the world judges us. 979 00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:58,359 Speaker 2: And when people say to me with frequency, oh that's 980 00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:03,360 Speaker 2: so shallow, that's so judgmental, but it's true. You know, 981 00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:05,440 Speaker 2: when you walk into a restaurant, how do you know 982 00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:09,480 Speaker 2: who works there versus who a patron is. It's by 983 00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:10,240 Speaker 2: how they're dressed. 984 00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:12,080 Speaker 1: Going off of that, I just want to do a 985 00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:16,600 Speaker 1: couple like life reflections, because you have lived an incredible life, 986 00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:18,319 Speaker 1: like it is just so amazing for me to be 987 00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:21,239 Speaker 1: sitting here in front of you, somebody that's accomplished so much, 988 00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:24,000 Speaker 1: and like, I can only like dream of accomplishing as 989 00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:25,959 Speaker 1: much as you have, and I hope that I will. 990 00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:27,439 Speaker 1: But seriously, it is so you. 991 00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:29,239 Speaker 2: Will vastly surpass me. 992 00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:30,839 Speaker 1: It is so inspirational. 993 00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:34,160 Speaker 2: Seriously, the most important thing is, Kate, just to just 994 00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:37,040 Speaker 2: to do whatever you're doing at one hundred and fifty 995 00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:40,840 Speaker 2: percent and just to move forward and then see what happens. 996 00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:42,680 Speaker 2: Young people ask me this all the time, how do 997 00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:44,680 Speaker 2: I get to be famous? Well? What do you want 998 00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:49,040 Speaker 2: to be famous for? Oh? I don't care. You don't, well, 999 00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:53,880 Speaker 2: you should care. If you're chasing it, it eludes you. 1000 00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:55,839 Speaker 2: You never get it. You just have to do a 1001 00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:56,879 Speaker 2: really good Yeah. 1002 00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:58,640 Speaker 1: My dad used to say it to me. With sports, 1003 00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:02,360 Speaker 1: it's like you're not chasing an accolade. You're chasing being 1004 00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:05,200 Speaker 1: the best you can possibly be at your sport, and 1005 00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:06,359 Speaker 1: then the accolades come. 1006 00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:09,360 Speaker 2: Dad is completely one thousand percent correct. 1007 00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:10,360 Speaker 1: And it applies to everything. 1008 00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:13,279 Speaker 2: And also as an athlete, and I'm reflecting upon my 1009 00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:17,520 Speaker 2: childhood years as a competitive swimmer, someone's going to come 1010 00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:23,280 Speaker 2: in first, second, and third, and I was always fourth, fifth, sixth. 1011 00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:26,920 Speaker 2: It didn't get me down. It made me train harder, 1012 00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:29,600 Speaker 2: work harder. And the day first time that I came 1013 00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:33,160 Speaker 2: in third I remember that day and that yellow ribbon. 1014 00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:38,479 Speaker 2: It was so thrilling and I'm ecstatic, and it said 1015 00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:41,800 Speaker 2: to me, if you really work at this, it can happen, 1016 00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:47,640 Speaker 2: as opposed to, oh, don't cry, sweetie, here's a ribbon. No, 1017 00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:51,120 Speaker 2: work hard and then be proud of what you've achieved. 1018 00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:54,759 Speaker 1: Absolutely and looking back on your life, like, did you 1019 00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:58,080 Speaker 1: ever imagine you'd become this pop culture icon in the 1020 00:56:58,120 --> 00:56:59,040 Speaker 1: world of fashion? 1021 00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:04,800 Speaker 2: Never in this zillion years. Never. And I still don't 1022 00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:09,680 Speaker 2: acknowledge anything even close to that. Right the for me, 1023 00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:15,400 Speaker 2: the the humbling, maybe it's not humbling. I don't know that. 1024 00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:22,200 Speaker 2: The whiff of fresh air that I get is every 1025 00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:26,480 Speaker 2: time I'm in my kitchen because I'm in it a 1026 00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:29,880 Speaker 2: lot and it's open, so I see it is seeing 1027 00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:33,160 Speaker 2: Miami Award. I mean, I think, oh my god, I 1028 00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:35,800 Speaker 2: have an Emmy Award. This is unbelievable. 1029 00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:40,760 Speaker 1: It's such a testament to hard work and just being yourself, 1030 00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:43,760 Speaker 1: just being yourself, really being yourself. Yeah. So many of 1031 00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:47,920 Speaker 1: our listeners are creatives, entrepreneurs, people in the city just 1032 00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:50,840 Speaker 1: trying to make it happen. I'm curious. Can you leave 1033 00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:53,000 Speaker 1: us with one final piece of advice? 1034 00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:54,200 Speaker 2: Make it work. 1035 00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:57,320 Speaker 1: Let's go make it work. 1036 00:57:57,400 --> 00:57:58,680 Speaker 2: Make it work all right? 1037 00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:01,320 Speaker 1: Well, Tim, thank you, thank you so much for coming 1038 00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:02,760 Speaker 1: on post friend high with me today. 1039 00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:05,760 Speaker 2: Kate, thank you. And you're a fantastic therapist. 1040 00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:08,640 Speaker 1: Really did you feel like you were in a therapy session? Yes, 1041 00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:10,680 Speaker 1: talking about yourself is therapeutic. 1042 00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:11,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. 1043 00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:13,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, And like going back to the early years. 1044 00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:15,680 Speaker 2: You took me on a journey I haven't been on 1045 00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:16,480 Speaker 2: for decades. 1046 00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:18,680 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Well I'm so happy I got to 1047 00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:21,200 Speaker 1: go on that journey with you. Seriously, like I just 1048 00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:23,080 Speaker 1: want to like, you're amazing. 1049 00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:25,680 Speaker 2: Thank you.