WEBVTT - Michelle Zauner (Japanese Breakfast) 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:02.040 Yeah. I mean, I feel like we've let go of 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:04.880 timelines so hugely in this past year and a half, 0:00:04.960 --> 0:00:07.280 Like the idea of deadlines and timelines and time has 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:10.000 just been so elastic. I've had to create discipline that 0:00:10.039 --> 0:00:13.399 I didn't have previously. And I also like react badly 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:15.080 when people are like, Okay, this has to be done 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:17.079 by this time, and it's like, well, why if time 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:24.079 is elastic? Is that what you say? That's literally that's 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:26.520 like I wish I had said that. I didn't say 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:28.640 that to anybody except you. That's what I'm gonna start. 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:34.280 I'm gonna start saying that to my manager. Time is elastic. 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:39.920 What do you mean? Eleven thirty? Time is elastic? Hello, 0:00:40.080 --> 0:00:44.160 I'm Mini driver and welcome to many questions. I've always 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:47.920 loved pruce questionnaire. It was originally an eighteenth century parlor 0:00:47.960 --> 0:00:51.519 game meant to reveal an individual's true nature, but with 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:54.760 so many questions, there wasn't really an opportunity to expand 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:57.760 on anything. So I took the format of Pruce's questionnaire 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:00.320 and adapted what I think are so one of the 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:03.920 most important questions you could ever ask someone they are 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:08.520 when and where were you happiest what is the quality 0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:13.480 you like least about yourself? What relationship, real or fictionalized, 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:18.000 defines love for you? What question would you most like answered, 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:22.759 What person, place, or experience has shaped you the most? 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:27.720 What would be your last meal? And can you tell 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:30.520 me something in your life that has grown out of 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:34.760 a personal disaster. The more people we ask, the more 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:37.319 we begin to see what makes us similar and what 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:41.880 makes us individual. I've gathered a group of really remarkable 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:44.120 people who I am honored and humbled to have had 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:50.559 a chance to engage with. My guest today is musician, author, 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:56.320 and poet in my estimation, Michelle's Honor. Michelle records as 0:01:56.320 --> 0:02:00.560 the band Japanese Breakfast, and her new record Jubilee is 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:04.640 now one of my favorite albums. We have both lost 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:07.760 our mothers and listening to the last three of her 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:14.640 albums tracks an extraordinary journey through patients, rage, and grief. 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:18.400 My favorite song on her new album is called Posing 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:22.160 in Bondage, and there's a line that I think about 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:25.240 a lot in it. It goes those who run from 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:31.280 pain those who have yet too. I felt intensely comforted 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:34.560 by her per view of loss, and the music is 0:02:34.560 --> 0:02:40.639 like this awesome low Fi Nimble, part Funk. It's just excellent. 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:43.200 And she's also written an extraordinary book that was on 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:46.360 the New York Times bestseller List called Crying in h Mark, 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:51.359 which is deft and hilarious and heartbreaking all at the 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:54.640 same time. I'm such a fan of hers, and I 0:02:54.680 --> 0:02:57.799 feel like I owe her for showing me that there 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:01.600 is at least some sort of light at the end 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:10.720 of the tunnel of grief. What person, place, or experience 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:14.360 has most altered your life. I feel like my entire 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:18.040 life right now feels very folded in half around this 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:20.840 moment of losing losing my mom. I'm a very different 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:23.000 person after that. My whole life changed. I mean, my 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:26.400 whole family just dissolves when my mom passed away. My 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:29.519 dad moved to Thailand and we don't speak anymore. And 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:35.240 you know, this person that represented my entire family is gone, 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:38.800 but lives on in me in this new way. So 0:03:39.080 --> 0:03:41.640 I lost my MoMA a month and a half ago. Oh, 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:45.640 I'm so sorry, but I've I've got to tell you. 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:49.360 I didn't know the stories behind your albums. And when 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:53.520 I went back and I listened with this new per view, 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:56.480 when I got listened to posing a bondage. I was like, 0:03:57.320 --> 0:04:01.000 this is where I'm going to get so lovely to 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:04.200 hear thank you so much. The fact that your record 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:06.840 as you believe, like what that means in terms of 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:11.280 like the word itself, and the idea that there is celebration, 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:15.480 There is celebration beyond death. There is celebration in the 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:20.080 relationship that develops with your parents after they die that 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:24.080 nobody really talks about. And the energetically right now, even 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:27.240 though I'm not there, the idea that that I'm going 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:29.680 to get to this place because when I read parts 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:32.640 of Crying and h Mark, it was realizing it was 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:36.920 so familiar. Obviously the whole it's so familiar, but the 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:39.400 idea that there is a journey that even though it 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:42.760 feels like life stopped, it goes on and you carry 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:45.640 on and do you believe? For me felt like the 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:50.360 emergence of life again, life after loss, real life after 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:54.360 death was so beautiful and so amazing, and I'm so 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:59.599 I'm so grateful because it's been so comforting to listen 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:03.440 to your music. Oh, thank you so much. That means 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:06.560 so much to me. I feel like You've just put 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:09.560 into words that I I'm still wrapping my head around 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:13.240 trying to explain, and so it it hits me so 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:16.600 hard that I feel like you've just gotten completely what 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:19.800 I meant to say, and it's the first time I'm 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:23.479 hearing it back to me. So I really appreciate that. 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:27.240 How great it is meaningful, How great that what you're 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:32.320 doing as an artist, because surely, quite self regarding as artists, 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:35.320 you know we're in our process. But to create something 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:39.000 that not only touches people but genuinely helps them, I 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:43.320 think it's very It's rare. Sorry, I've like, you know, 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:45.679 we've been on for two minutes. I've cried. I've told 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:48.800 you know, that's so moving, Like it's not. I mean, 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:53.280 it's a rare, precious thing to get to be vulnerable 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:57.279 and impacted deeply by art. I mean, there's no greater 0:05:57.720 --> 0:06:00.200 gift to get to share with you. So I really 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:03.440 appreciate it. You're welcome. I think you're right. Artists don't 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:06.440 often know how they've impacted the people who are who 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:09.000 are metabolizing there are. I mean, that's why you do 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:10.960 it too. I feel like so much of the past, 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:13.760 like a couple of months, has just been the rush 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:17.920 of like running to make force people to like interact 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:20.599 with your art, you know, so you forget when it 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:22.880 actually hits someone, and like why you actually do it 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:25.960 in the first place, because you're so convinced sometimes that 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:29.960 your art is hitting because of like a marketing scheme 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:33.400 or something. So it's nice to be reminded that the 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:36.240 actual thing is doing something much more important, I think. 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:38.320 I also, you know, there's a line in that new 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:41.400 song posing in Bondage and also expanded up on in 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:44.239 the book where I say, you know, when the world 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:46.680 divides into two people, those who have felt pain in 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:49.320 those who have yet too. I wrote it down. I 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:53.599 have it written right here, those who run from pain 0:06:54.040 --> 0:06:57.760 those who have yet to. Yeah, I feel like that's 0:06:57.760 --> 0:07:00.160 how I see the world now. And it's and like 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:02.640 frustrating when you know people who haven't gone through this 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:05.599 experience and it feels like such an unfair hand to 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:09.400 be dealt. But I also found I have a much 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:12.240 deeper sense of compassion to other people. It was almost 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:14.520 like I was invited into this new club I didn't 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:18.520 want to be a part of exactly, that's exactly. But 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:20.800 I remember after my mom died, I was sitting at 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:24.800 a kitchen table with my mother in law and her mother, 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:29.120 my husband's grandmother, and they were telling me about you know, 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:33.360 my mother in law's brother died when she was in college. 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:36.360 They were in college together, and you know, she was 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:38.960 telling me about this experience, and then her mother was saying, 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:40.800 you know, I used to cry every day on the 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:43.080 way to work in the car and every day when 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:45.880 I came home. And now it was a strange feeling 0:07:45.920 --> 0:07:47.720 because I don't know if they would have told me 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:50.000 that story if I hadn't sort of gone through this 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:51.920 type of grief, and I don't know if I would 0:07:51.920 --> 0:07:57.080 have felt it so deeply, such an intense understanding, or 0:07:57.080 --> 0:07:59.120 even the way that I feel towards you right now, 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:01.840 that when you just know that someone has gone through 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:05.320 that you're understanding and your feelings of closeness to a 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:09.400 person really alters after you go through something like that. 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:12.000 And even though it's really hard and it's not necessarily 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:14.720 a club you want to be a part of, there 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:18.520 there is some like deeper connection to people. I think 0:08:18.600 --> 0:08:20.920 that you do start to feel after you go through 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:25.240 something like that that is actually really beautiful. A hundred percent. 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:29.680 It moves from being I was angry. It was so 0:08:29.720 --> 0:08:33.560 awful to say it. Then you then feel isolated and 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:36.280 like you're this total pariah. And then when you start 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:38.680 talking to people who actually have lost their moms, and 0:08:38.760 --> 0:08:42.880 you realize that it's such a particular club, it's such 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:46.200 a particular journey. You're very young to lose your mama. 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:49.560 I mean, I'm I'm a hundred and forty, you know, 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:56.920 I was, I'm older in it, you know, but like 0:08:57.640 --> 0:09:01.200 it's still it was still too soon. It was still 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:21.160 too soon. What relationship, real or fictionalized to find love? 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:25.960 For you? I have a really wonderful relationship with my husband, 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:29.920 and I'm really lucky because we had dated for about 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:32.360 a year and a half when my mom got sick 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:37.480 and when we found out her cancer is terminal, I 0:09:37.559 --> 0:09:40.200 called him from a hospital in Korea and I was like, 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:43.320 if this is something that you are thinking of doing 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:45.760 in the next five years and you don't just do 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:48.600 it now, I don't think I'll ever be able to 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:52.360 forgive you. And so we threw together a wedding three 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:55.800 weeks before my mother passed away. Oh my god. Because 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:58.360 I was an only child and you know, for me, 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:01.360 you know, getting married was never that important of a 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:03.880 thing for me. But I knew it was a tremendously 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:05.719 important thing for my mom, and that if I ever 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:09.000 got married and she wasn't there, it would just destroy me. 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:11.320 I could never enjoy myself at a at a wedding. 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:15.120 So we're really lucky that she was able to go 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:17.880 to the wedding and she went into a coma two 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:20.440 weeks after we got married. We got married in my 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:24.160 parents backyard I talked about in the book, and I 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:26.960 am so lucky that it worked out. I mean, I 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:29.760 told him, you know, we'll just get divorced if it 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:33.040 doesn't work out, you know, like we'll be like young 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:36.480 hip divorces, and uh, you know, we can refer to 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:39.560 our first marriages in this like very you know, mature way, 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:42.600 you know, in our late twenties. And it just I 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:45.640 got so lucky because I think it worked out so 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:48.920 well because my family was able to fold him into 0:10:48.920 --> 0:10:52.120 ours so seamlessly, and his family was able to embrace 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:55.200 me in such a deeper way because we got married, 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:59.360 and I think maybe subconsciously I could feel my nuclear 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:03.319 family falling apart and sort of needed to recreate that 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:05.880 with someone. And yeah, I mean I just I never 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:08.880 knew that I could feel this way about someone, and 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:13.280 I feel like we are very uh perfectly matched in 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:18.199 this way that you know, seemed realistically impossible, and so 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:21.520 I can't think of a I can't think of a 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:25.360 greater love than ours. I truly feel that way. I'm 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:28.520 very lucky to have found that in my life. Yeah. Also, 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:31.440 I think in a way, backing into these things, like 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:35.360 it's not happening in a traditional way, often it destroys 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:38.240 all of our previous ideas about it. The hearing that 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:40.520 you called him up and we're like, listen, we got 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:43.920 to get married, or like or I'll hate you or 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:46.439 I hate you, just so you know, And the fact 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:49.920 that he could go this ritual is so important to 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:51.880 this person that I love. And not only that, but 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:54.840 like to her mother, I will do this as an experience, 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:56.480 but I love that the pressure is taken off because 0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:58.120 it's like, yeah, and if we get divorced, then maybe 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:01.760 we'll get married again when we're like thirty five, right right, exactly, 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:04.840 like observing the traditional desire of your mom to see 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:08.000 you married, but getting rid of the expectation. It doesn't 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:11.840 have to work out. It's okay, and then that defines love. Yeah, 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:13.840 And he I mean, I wrote that song Till Death 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:16.120 about him, and you know, I don't know if I 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:21.000 could have honestly been there for someone so selflessly the 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:23.160 way that he was there for me during that time, 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:26.640 because you're just I mean, you know, like when you 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:31.079 go through the grief of losing someone so monumental to 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:37.000 your life, you become so useless, totally and absolutely useless. 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:40.280 For a year, I felt like I was real learning 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:44.199 how to walk, you know, relearning how to feed myself, 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:48.479 relearning how to you know, breathe, and to have someone 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:52.400 just stand by you because there's absolutely nothing they can 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:54.920 do but just wait it out with you and wait 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:58.280 for the person they love to come back. I was 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:01.440 really lucky that I had someone like that, you know, 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:04.560 m to just wait it out with me. I'd love 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:08.400 I love that, because you're right, it's standing and waiting 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:11.280 it out. And I'm I felt that way when when 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:14.240 my mom was dying, was that all all we could 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:17.439 do was to be with her, was to hold her 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:20.280 hand and to be there and to love her. And 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:25.080 that's exactly what my boyfriend is doing for me now. 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:28.200 He's just standing. He's not trying to fix it because 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:32.559 it's unfixable. It's kind of like it's it's like standing 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:37.760 by a really beautiful, really old tree. It feels he's 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:40.600 not old. He's actually much younger than me, but um, 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:43.480 it's he's an old tree in my in my life. 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:46.920 It's funny, that, isn't it, Particularly when I don't know 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:49.280 about you, But I am such a do I want 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:51.360 to fix stuff. I want to make you know, I'm 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:52.880 a mom. I want to fix stuff of my kids. 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:55.160 I want to I want to make it better. And 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:57.800 you simply cannot make this better. You just have to 0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:01.959 stand and witness it it with as much compassion as 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:05.760 you can, I guess. And there's just no skipping steps. 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:09.120 I mean, it is it's like a you know it is. 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:11.360 It is something that you just have to let take 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:13.640 you like a current, like it's not it's not going 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:16.199 to wait for you, and when you think you've conquered it, 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:19.400 it's going to kick your ass in a totally new way. 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:22.520 I feel like it's so true, and that by the way, 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:26.240 it is process like we are being forced or we 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:30.000 are forced to process this. There's no getting around it. 0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:33.200 There's no jumping to the end of the alphabet. You 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:37.080 have to go through every step and that felt suffocating 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:41.160 to begin with for me in the early days of grief, 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:44.160 but now it's sort of more of a this is 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:47.360 what we do. We wake up every day and you 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:49.880 meet your grief and you don't know how it's going 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:51.960 to take you, but you go with the current of it. 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:55.120 You allow that because fighting it is actually so much worse. 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:57.360 Are you do you mind? If I as, are you 0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:02.880 having a lot of dreams? You know? The strangest thing 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:06.440 and that this is the part that I've actually apart 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:08.760 from her not being here, the thing I've found hardest 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:11.680 is that I have not dreamt. I've been I've dreamed 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:14.400 my whole life, like vividly, like write them down dreams. 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:18.200 I have not had a dream since she died. And 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:22.080 it's been it's been devastating. It's been devastating to me 0:15:22.240 --> 0:15:25.240 that I haven't seen her in a dream. It will happen. 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:28.520 It'll happen when you're not at this place where you're 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:32.040 like where are you? You know, that's exactly because my aunt, 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:34.120 I'm pretty sure I was like, are you dreaming about her? 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:36.240 And I was like, oh my god, I'm not, you know, 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:39.760 like is that wrong? And I think it must have 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:41.960 been because I was like searching for it. But I 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:45.880 feel like they they'll come like when you aren't thinking 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:48.600 about wanting them so badly. You know. I wonder if 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:50.960 they think it would make it worse, if they're like, 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:53.600 it would actually make it so much worse if you do. 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:55.400 Don't want you to wake up thinking that you've been 0:15:55.400 --> 0:15:57.160 with me. You need to, you need to in that 0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:00.160 little time path. You know, it was so frust and 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:03.200 because you see them and then it's like trying to 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:05.360 call your way back to sleep and you can never 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:08.000 do it. And it's a really interesting part though. I mean, 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:09.720 it's so interesting because you think that all of these 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:13.640 things are very unique to you, but every person that 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:15.560 goes through it goes through the same thing. Even when 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:17.240 I got married, I was like, oh, I did this 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:20.800 weird thing. And I heard so many stories about people 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:23.880 who put weddings together when their parents were sick. Because 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:25.680 it is a natural you know, all human beings are 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:29.120 kind of made up of the same stuff, exactly in 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:32.920 the Vendor diagram of light experience as these you know, 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:36.520 matter made visible. We there is so much that is 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:39.800 fundamental to all of us. Will do the same things 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:41.960 in the same situations. I kind of love that it 0:16:42.000 --> 0:16:51.160 feels tribal. Mm hmm. What is the quality that you 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:57.840 least like about yourself. I'm incredibly impatient and everything, and 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:03.280 and I can forget to enjoy things sometimes because you 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:06.520 want the result, like you said, you don't pay attention 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:09.680 to the journey of it as it were. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:12.720 that's my issue with art making. And sometimes it's the 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:15.080 great thing. But I am not one to dwell in 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:18.040 the process. And I envy my husband's like that. He 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:22.200 is all process and sometimes never gets anything done because 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:25.119 he can learn something, can really take his time and 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:28.399 have full understanding of something, whereas I often tend to 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:33.280 skip steps and not in relish the process of things. 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:36.480 But I also can be really impatient with people too, 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:40.000 and I wish I wasn't like that. What what triggers 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:42.040 you about a person, like if they take too long 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:45.440 telling a story or what is it? Yeah? Yeah, that's 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:49.440 definitely yeah, yeah, there's that. And also if I think 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:51.879 I'm quick to cut people out of my life or 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:55.920 like snap to judgment in a way I don't suffer fools, well, 0:17:56.800 --> 0:17:59.000 I know I am exactly the same. I think a 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:01.560 lot of it comes from my mother though, because my 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:04.560 my mom raised me in this way where sometimes my 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:07.439 friends will confide in me about something, and you know, 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:10.320 my natural desires to fix it. But I think that 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:12.480 when your friends confide in you, they're not asking you 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:14.840 to fix something. They just want to let it go, 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:16.880 you know, and they want someone to listen to them. 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:18.760 I want, I mean, I really want to get better 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:21.600 at like not being like, well, obviously you do this, 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:24.080 and then when they don't do that, you get naturally 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:26.160 kind of upset about it. And as I get older, 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:28.800 I'm realizing like, they're gonna do whatever they want to do. 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:31.639 You can be you can offer some sound advice, but 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:33.879 I think largely what your friends really wants you to 0:18:33.920 --> 0:18:36.679 do is just to be quiet and to listen and 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:41.240 offer up support. And I think sometimes I get confused 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:43.359 and I'm like, well, clearly this is like these are 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:45.040 the steps you need to take. And then if they 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:48.560 don't take them, because they're human and they have their 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:53.919 own interests and desires, like I have gotten frustrated in 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:57.040 the past, and that's like totally unfair and uh, something 0:18:57.080 --> 0:18:59.240 that I just need to work on. I think, well, 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:04.320 it's you. We all have stuff to work on. But wait, so, 0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:10.000 because you write a lot about traditional Korean cooking, and 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:12.720 it feels to me that there is an enormous amount 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:16.040 of process in that, in the process of cooking, in 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:19.960 the process of like shopping for the ingredients and the 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:23.040 whole thing. So is that an area where you're not 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:27.520 focused on the result, you really are in the journey. 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:29.480 Would you say that there's a lot of flow when 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:33.639 you're making food. I do think so. I think it 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:37.439 is like this really tactle intuitive thing where you don't 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:41.119 I'm not after anything really when I'm doing it. I 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:43.119 am like sort of in the process of that, and 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:46.439 I enjoy it and I don't have to mentally like 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:49.040 go after something in the same way that I go 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:51.520 after it in other parts of my life. And I 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:54.480 think that that's something that I've really enjoyed about cooking, 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:57.640 is because I'm such an analytical in my head person 0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:00.119 and there's none of that really when you're cooking ng 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:02.520 it's all you know, very You're very present and not 0:20:02.680 --> 0:20:06.720 thinking about the future really at all, and um, your 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:10.480 mind kind of unbusies itself in this beautiful way that's 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:14.119 so interesting. So it's like that's a that is a meditation. 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:17.280 I mean that would be my description of of meditation 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:21.399 or the meditative quality of absolutely. Yeah, that's so funny. 0:20:21.400 --> 0:20:24.240 I think I read in something I think it was 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:26.840 in a New Yorker in the excerpt from your book, 0:20:27.240 --> 0:20:30.120 where you were like somebody said, you just add enough 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:33.880 something until it tastes like moms. Oh yeah, yeah, sessame 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:36.040 oil and things I don't sesame al to the taste 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:40.440 like your mom's. That was excellent and thank you. Yeah. Yeah. 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:43.240 There's this meal that my mom would make for me 0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:46.760 every time I came home from college. She would marinate 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:51.520 this short rib It's called Colby the sweet cream short 0:20:51.600 --> 0:20:57.040 rib with white rice, uh, this white radish kimchi in 0:20:57.280 --> 0:21:02.080 this really tart Brian sesame oil and red paper flakes 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:06.200 and then this radish kimchi, just the way that my mom. 0:21:06.600 --> 0:21:08.760 It just is like a feeling, you know, it like 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:12.880 sits like here. Do you ever make that meal now? 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:17.440 Not often? Not often, because it doesn't taste as good 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:20.440 when you make it for yourself. Part of it is 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:22.760 that you don't have to do anything, and it's just 0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:25.879 this person has gone through this whole process of like 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:29.199 marinating this thing two days before and buying all the 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:32.840 ingredients like weeks before you arrive, and just knowing that 0:21:32.880 --> 0:21:36.560 there was so much thought that went into it. It 0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:38.919 doesn't taste as good or mean as much when you 0:21:38.960 --> 0:21:42.200 make it for yourself. It's so true. But okay, hold on, 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:46.040 I've got a plan. So it's your is yours. Your 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:49.280 husband is your husband a good cook? No, it's horrible, 0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:52.919 it's horrible. Okay, forget him. Do you have a friend 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:56.080 who you love, who you could say, okay, can you 0:21:56.720 --> 0:21:59.240 take a day? Don't tell me what it's going to be, 0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:01.640 And I'm going to teach you and I teach them 0:22:01.680 --> 0:22:03.560 how to make it and then just happen like on 0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:08.320 your birthday. It surprised you with this meal, And I 0:22:08.359 --> 0:22:11.320 think that's a very good plan to see how I'm 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:14.920 to see how I'm trying to fix your You're you're 0:22:14.960 --> 0:22:17.040 not a problem, but you didn't have a problem. But 0:22:17.080 --> 0:22:18.600 I'm gonna I'm going to find a way to fix 0:22:18.640 --> 0:22:35.800 you're not a problem. Where and when were you happiest? 0:22:36.400 --> 0:22:39.159 It's so funny because it's such a childlike question to me, 0:22:39.520 --> 0:22:41.840 and when that could be really be quantified by an 0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:44.800 actual moment, Because I know that happiness is like lots 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:46.800 of different things as we grow up, but like, if 0:22:46.840 --> 0:22:49.520