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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I feel like we've let go of

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Speaker 1: timelines so hugely in this past year and a half,

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Speaker 1: Like the idea of deadlines and timelines and time has

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Speaker 1: just been so elastic. I've had to create discipline that

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Speaker 1: I didn't have previously. And I also like react badly

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Speaker 1: when people are like, Okay, this has to be done

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Speaker 1: by this time, and it's like, well, why if time

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Speaker 1: is elastic? Is that what you say? That's literally that's

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Speaker 1: like I wish I had said that. I didn't say

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Speaker 1: that to anybody except you. That's what I'm gonna start.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna start saying that to my manager. Time is elastic.

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Speaker 1: What do you mean? Eleven thirty? Time is elastic? Hello,

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Speaker 1: I'm Mini driver and welcome to many questions. I've always

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Speaker 1: loved pruce questionnaire. It was originally an eighteenth century parlor

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Speaker 1: game meant to reveal an individual's true nature, but with

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Speaker 1: so many questions, there wasn't really an opportunity to expand

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Speaker 1: on anything. So I took the format of Pruce's questionnaire

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Speaker 1: and adapted what I think are so one of the

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Speaker 1: most important questions you could ever ask someone they are

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Speaker 1: when and where were you happiest what is the quality

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Speaker 1: you like least about yourself? What relationship, real or fictionalized,

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Speaker 1: defines love for you? What question would you most like answered,

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Speaker 1: What person, place, or experience has shaped you the most?

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Speaker 1: What would be your last meal? And can you tell

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Speaker 1: me something in your life that has grown out of

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Speaker 1: a personal disaster. The more people we ask, the more

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Speaker 1: we begin to see what makes us similar and what

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Speaker 1: makes us individual. I've gathered a group of really remarkable

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Speaker 1: people who I am honored and humbled to have had

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Speaker 1: a chance to engage with. My guest today is musician, author,

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Speaker 1: and poet in my estimation, Michelle's Honor. Michelle records as

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Speaker 1: the band Japanese Breakfast, and her new record Jubilee is

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Speaker 1: now one of my favorite albums. We have both lost

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Speaker 1: our mothers and listening to the last three of her

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Speaker 1: albums tracks an extraordinary journey through patients, rage, and grief.

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Speaker 1: My favorite song on her new album is called Posing

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Speaker 1: in Bondage, and there's a line that I think about

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Speaker 1: a lot in it. It goes those who run from

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Speaker 1: pain those who have yet too. I felt intensely comforted

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Speaker 1: by her per view of loss, and the music is

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Speaker 1: like this awesome low Fi Nimble, part Funk. It's just excellent.

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Speaker 1: And she's also written an extraordinary book that was on

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Speaker 1: the New York Times bestseller List called Crying in h Mark,

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Speaker 1: which is deft and hilarious and heartbreaking all at the

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Speaker 1: same time. I'm such a fan of hers, and I

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Speaker 1: feel like I owe her for showing me that there

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Speaker 1: is at least some sort of light at the end

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Speaker 1: of the tunnel of grief. What person, place, or experience

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Speaker 1: has most altered your life. I feel like my entire

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Speaker 1: life right now feels very folded in half around this

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Speaker 1: moment of losing losing my mom. I'm a very different

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Speaker 1: person after that. My whole life changed. I mean, my

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Speaker 1: whole family just dissolves when my mom passed away. My

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Speaker 1: dad moved to Thailand and we don't speak anymore. And

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Speaker 1: you know, this person that represented my entire family is gone,

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Speaker 1: but lives on in me in this new way. So

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Speaker 1: I lost my MoMA a month and a half ago. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm so sorry, but I've I've got to tell you.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know the stories behind your albums. And when

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Speaker 1: I went back and I listened with this new per view,

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Speaker 1: when I got listened to posing a bondage. I was like,

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Speaker 1: this is where I'm going to get so lovely to

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Speaker 1: hear thank you so much. The fact that your record

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Speaker 1: as you believe, like what that means in terms of

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Speaker 1: like the word itself, and the idea that there is celebration,

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Speaker 1: There is celebration beyond death. There is celebration in the

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Speaker 1: relationship that develops with your parents after they die that

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Speaker 1: nobody really talks about. And the energetically right now, even

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Speaker 1: though I'm not there, the idea that that I'm going

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Speaker 1: to get to this place because when I read parts

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Speaker 1: of Crying and h Mark, it was realizing it was

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Speaker 1: so familiar. Obviously the whole it's so familiar, but the

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Speaker 1: idea that there is a journey that even though it

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Speaker 1: feels like life stopped, it goes on and you carry

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Speaker 1: on and do you believe? For me felt like the

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Speaker 1: emergence of life again, life after loss, real life after

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Speaker 1: death was so beautiful and so amazing, and I'm so

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Speaker 1: I'm so grateful because it's been so comforting to listen

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Speaker 1: to your music. Oh, thank you so much. That means

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Speaker 1: so much to me. I feel like You've just put

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Speaker 1: into words that I I'm still wrapping my head around

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Speaker 1: trying to explain, and so it it hits me so

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Speaker 1: hard that I feel like you've just gotten completely what

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Speaker 1: I meant to say, and it's the first time I'm

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Speaker 1: hearing it back to me. So I really appreciate that.

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Speaker 1: How great it is meaningful, How great that what you're

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Speaker 1: doing as an artist, because surely, quite self regarding as artists,

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Speaker 1: you know we're in our process. But to create something

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Speaker 1: that not only touches people but genuinely helps them, I

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Speaker 1: think it's very It's rare. Sorry, I've like, you know,

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Speaker 1: we've been on for two minutes. I've cried. I've told

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Speaker 1: you know, that's so moving, Like it's not. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's a rare, precious thing to get to be vulnerable

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Speaker 1: and impacted deeply by art. I mean, there's no greater

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Speaker 1: gift to get to share with you. So I really

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Speaker 1: appreciate it. You're welcome. I think you're right. Artists don't

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Speaker 1: often know how they've impacted the people who are who

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Speaker 1: are metabolizing there are. I mean, that's why you do

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Speaker 1: it too. I feel like so much of the past,

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Speaker 1: like a couple of months, has just been the rush

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Speaker 1: of like running to make force people to like interact

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Speaker 1: with your art, you know, so you forget when it

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Speaker 1: actually hits someone, and like why you actually do it

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Speaker 1: in the first place, because you're so convinced sometimes that

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Speaker 1: your art is hitting because of like a marketing scheme

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Speaker 1: or something. So it's nice to be reminded that the

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Speaker 1: actual thing is doing something much more important, I think.

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Speaker 1: I also, you know, there's a line in that new

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Speaker 1: song posing in Bondage and also expanded up on in

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Speaker 1: the book where I say, you know, when the world

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Speaker 1: divides into two people, those who have felt pain in

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Speaker 1: those who have yet too. I wrote it down. I

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Speaker 1: have it written right here, those who run from pain

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Speaker 1: those who have yet to. Yeah, I feel like that's

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Speaker 1: how I see the world now. And it's and like

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Speaker 1: frustrating when you know people who haven't gone through this

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Speaker 1: experience and it feels like such an unfair hand to

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Speaker 1: be dealt. But I also found I have a much

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Speaker 1: deeper sense of compassion to other people. It was almost

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Speaker 1: like I was invited into this new club I didn't

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Speaker 1: want to be a part of exactly, that's exactly. But

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Speaker 1: I remember after my mom died, I was sitting at

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Speaker 1: a kitchen table with my mother in law and her mother,

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Speaker 1: my husband's grandmother, and they were telling me about you know,

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Speaker 1: my mother in law's brother died when she was in college.

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Speaker 1: They were in college together, and you know, she was

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Speaker 1: telling me about this experience, and then her mother was saying,

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Speaker 1: you know, I used to cry every day on the

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Speaker 1: way to work in the car and every day when

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Speaker 1: I came home. And now it was a strange feeling

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Speaker 1: because I don't know if they would have told me

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Speaker 1: that story if I hadn't sort of gone through this

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Speaker 1: type of grief, and I don't know if I would

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Speaker 1: have felt it so deeply, such an intense understanding, or

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Speaker 1: even the way that I feel towards you right now,

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Speaker 1: that when you just know that someone has gone through

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Speaker 1: that you're understanding and your feelings of closeness to a

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Speaker 1: person really alters after you go through something like that.

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Speaker 1: And even though it's really hard and it's not necessarily

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Speaker 1: a club you want to be a part of, there

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Speaker 1: there is some like deeper connection to people. I think

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Speaker 1: that you do start to feel after you go through

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Speaker 1: something like that that is actually really beautiful. A hundred percent.

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Speaker 1: It moves from being I was angry. It was so

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Speaker 1: awful to say it. Then you then feel isolated and

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Speaker 1: like you're this total pariah. And then when you start

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Speaker 1: talking to people who actually have lost their moms, and

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Speaker 1: you realize that it's such a particular club, it's such

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Speaker 1: a particular journey. You're very young to lose your mama.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm I'm a hundred and forty, you know,

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Speaker 1: I was, I'm older in it, you know, but like

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Speaker 1: it's still it was still too soon. It was still

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Speaker 1: too soon. What relationship, real or fictionalized to find love?

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Speaker 1: For you? I have a really wonderful relationship with my husband,

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Speaker 1: and I'm really lucky because we had dated for about

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Speaker 1: a year and a half when my mom got sick

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Speaker 1: and when we found out her cancer is terminal, I

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Speaker 1: called him from a hospital in Korea and I was like,

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Speaker 1: if this is something that you are thinking of doing

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Speaker 1: in the next five years and you don't just do

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Speaker 1: it now, I don't think I'll ever be able to

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Speaker 1: forgive you. And so we threw together a wedding three

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Speaker 1: weeks before my mother passed away. Oh my god. Because

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Speaker 1: I was an only child and you know, for me,

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Speaker 1: you know, getting married was never that important of a

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Speaker 1: thing for me. But I knew it was a tremendously

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Speaker 1: important thing for my mom, and that if I ever

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Speaker 1: got married and she wasn't there, it would just destroy me.

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Speaker 1: I could never enjoy myself at a at a wedding.

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Speaker 1: So we're really lucky that she was able to go

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Speaker 1: to the wedding and she went into a coma two

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Speaker 1: weeks after we got married. We got married in my

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Speaker 1: parents backyard I talked about in the book, and I

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Speaker 1: am so lucky that it worked out. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: told him, you know, we'll just get divorced if it

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Speaker 1: doesn't work out, you know, like we'll be like young

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Speaker 1: hip divorces, and uh, you know, we can refer to

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Speaker 1: our first marriages in this like very you know, mature way,

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Speaker 1: you know, in our late twenties. And it just I

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Speaker 1: got so lucky because I think it worked out so

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Speaker 1: well because my family was able to fold him into

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Speaker 1: ours so seamlessly, and his family was able to embrace

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Speaker 1: me in such a deeper way because we got married,

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Speaker 1: and I think maybe subconsciously I could feel my nuclear

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Speaker 1: family falling apart and sort of needed to recreate that

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Speaker 1: with someone. And yeah, I mean I just I never

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Speaker 1: knew that I could feel this way about someone, and

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Speaker 1: I feel like we are very uh perfectly matched in

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Speaker 1: this way that you know, seemed realistically impossible, and so

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Speaker 1: I can't think of a I can't think of a

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Speaker 1: greater love than ours. I truly feel that way. I'm

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Speaker 1: very lucky to have found that in my life. Yeah. Also,

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Speaker 1: I think in a way, backing into these things, like

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Speaker 1: it's not happening in a traditional way, often it destroys

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Speaker 1: all of our previous ideas about it. The hearing that

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Speaker 1: you called him up and we're like, listen, we got

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Speaker 1: to get married, or like or I'll hate you or

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Speaker 1: I hate you, just so you know, And the fact

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Speaker 1: that he could go this ritual is so important to

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Speaker 1: this person that I love. And not only that, but

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Speaker 1: like to her mother, I will do this as an experience,

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Speaker 1: but I love that the pressure is taken off because

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Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, and if we get divorced, then maybe

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Speaker 1: we'll get married again when we're like thirty five, right right, exactly,

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Speaker 1: like observing the traditional desire of your mom to see

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Speaker 1: you married, but getting rid of the expectation. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: have to work out. It's okay, and then that defines love. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And he I mean, I wrote that song Till Death

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Speaker 1: about him, and you know, I don't know if I

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Speaker 1: could have honestly been there for someone so selflessly the

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Speaker 1: way that he was there for me during that time,

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Speaker 1: because you're just I mean, you know, like when you

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Speaker 1: go through the grief of losing someone so monumental to

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Speaker 1: your life, you become so useless, totally and absolutely useless.

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Speaker 1: For a year, I felt like I was real learning

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Speaker 1: how to walk, you know, relearning how to feed myself,

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Speaker 1: relearning how to you know, breathe, and to have someone

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Speaker 1: just stand by you because there's absolutely nothing they can

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Speaker 1: do but just wait it out with you and wait

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Speaker 1: for the person they love to come back. I was

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Speaker 1: really lucky that I had someone like that, you know,

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Speaker 1: m to just wait it out with me. I'd love

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Speaker 1: I love that, because you're right, it's standing and waiting

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Speaker 1: it out. And I'm I felt that way when when

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Speaker 1: my mom was dying, was that all all we could

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Speaker 1: do was to be with her, was to hold her

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Speaker 1: hand and to be there and to love her. And

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Speaker 1: that's exactly what my boyfriend is doing for me now.

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Speaker 1: He's just standing. He's not trying to fix it because

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Speaker 1: it's unfixable. It's kind of like it's it's like standing

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Speaker 1: by a really beautiful, really old tree. It feels he's

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Speaker 1: not old. He's actually much younger than me, but um,

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Speaker 1: it's he's an old tree in my in my life.

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Speaker 1: It's funny, that, isn't it, Particularly when I don't know

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Speaker 1: about you, But I am such a do I want

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Speaker 1: to fix stuff. I want to make you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: a mom. I want to fix stuff of my kids.

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Speaker 1: I want to I want to make it better. And

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Speaker 1: you simply cannot make this better. You just have to

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Speaker 1: stand and witness it it with as much compassion as

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Speaker 1: you can, I guess. And there's just no skipping steps.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it is it's like a you know it is.

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Speaker 1: It is something that you just have to let take

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Speaker 1: you like a current, like it's not it's not going

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Speaker 1: to wait for you, and when you think you've conquered it,

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Speaker 1: it's going to kick your ass in a totally new way.

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Speaker 1: I feel like it's so true, and that by the way,

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Speaker 1: it is process like we are being forced or we

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Speaker 1: are forced to process this. There's no getting around it.

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Speaker 1: There's no jumping to the end of the alphabet. You

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Speaker 1: have to go through every step and that felt suffocating

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Speaker 1: to begin with for me in the early days of grief,

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Speaker 1: but now it's sort of more of a this is

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Speaker 1: what we do. We wake up every day and you

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Speaker 1: meet your grief and you don't know how it's going

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Speaker 1: to take you, but you go with the current of it.

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Speaker 1: You allow that because fighting it is actually so much worse.

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Speaker 1: Are you do you mind? If I as, are you

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Speaker 1: having a lot of dreams? You know? The strangest thing

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Speaker 1: and that this is the part that I've actually apart

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Speaker 1: from her not being here, the thing I've found hardest

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Speaker 1: is that I have not dreamt. I've been I've dreamed

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Speaker 1: my whole life, like vividly, like write them down dreams.

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Speaker 1: I have not had a dream since she died. And

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Speaker 1: it's been it's been devastating. It's been devastating to me

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Speaker 1: that I haven't seen her in a dream. It will happen.

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Speaker 1: It'll happen when you're not at this place where you're

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Speaker 1: like where are you? You know, that's exactly because my aunt,

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure I was like, are you dreaming about her?

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Speaker 1: And I was like, oh my god, I'm not, you know,

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Speaker 1: like is that wrong? And I think it must have

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Speaker 1: been because I was like searching for it. But I

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Speaker 1: feel like they they'll come like when you aren't thinking

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Speaker 1: about wanting them so badly. You know. I wonder if

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Speaker 1: they think it would make it worse, if they're like,

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Speaker 1: it would actually make it so much worse if you do.

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Speaker 1: Don't want you to wake up thinking that you've been

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Speaker 1: with me. You need to, you need to in that

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Speaker 1: little time path. You know, it was so frust and

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Speaker 1: because you see them and then it's like trying to

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Speaker 1: call your way back to sleep and you can never

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Speaker 1: do it. And it's a really interesting part though. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's so interesting because you think that all of these

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Speaker 1: things are very unique to you, but every person that

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Speaker 1: goes through it goes through the same thing. Even when

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Speaker 1: I got married, I was like, oh, I did this

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Speaker 1: weird thing. And I heard so many stories about people

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Speaker 1: who put weddings together when their parents were sick. Because

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Speaker 1: it is a natural you know, all human beings are

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Speaker 1: kind of made up of the same stuff, exactly in

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Speaker 1: the Vendor diagram of light experience as these you know,

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Speaker 1: matter made visible. We there is so much that is

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Speaker 1: fundamental to all of us. Will do the same things

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Speaker 1: in the same situations. I kind of love that it

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Speaker 1: feels tribal. Mm hmm. What is the quality that you

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Speaker 1: least like about yourself. I'm incredibly impatient and everything, and

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Speaker 1: and I can forget to enjoy things sometimes because you

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Speaker 1: want the result, like you said, you don't pay attention

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Speaker 1: to the journey of it as it were. Absolutely, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's my issue with art making. And sometimes it's the

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Speaker 1: great thing. But I am not one to dwell in

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Speaker 1: the process. And I envy my husband's like that. He

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Speaker 1: is all process and sometimes never gets anything done because

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Speaker 1: he can learn something, can really take his time and

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Speaker 1: have full understanding of something, whereas I often tend to

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Speaker 1: skip steps and not in relish the process of things.

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Speaker 1: But I also can be really impatient with people too,

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Speaker 1: and I wish I wasn't like that. What what triggers

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Speaker 1: you about a person, like if they take too long

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Speaker 1: telling a story or what is it? Yeah? Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: definitely yeah, yeah, there's that. And also if I think

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Speaker 1: I'm quick to cut people out of my life or

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Speaker 1: like snap to judgment in a way I don't suffer fools, well,

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Speaker 1: I know I am exactly the same. I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of it comes from my mother though, because my

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Speaker 1: my mom raised me in this way where sometimes my

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Speaker 1: friends will confide in me about something, and you know,

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Speaker 1: my natural desires to fix it. But I think that

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Speaker 1: when your friends confide in you, they're not asking you

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Speaker 1: to fix something. They just want to let it go,

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Speaker 1: you know, and they want someone to listen to them.

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Speaker 1: I want, I mean, I really want to get better

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Speaker 1: at like not being like, well, obviously you do this,

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Speaker 1: and then when they don't do that, you get naturally

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Speaker 1: kind of upset about it. And as I get older,

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Speaker 1: I'm realizing like, they're gonna do whatever they want to do.

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Speaker 1: You can be you can offer some sound advice, but

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Speaker 1: I think largely what your friends really wants you to

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Speaker 1: do is just to be quiet and to listen and

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Speaker 1: offer up support. And I think sometimes I get confused

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, well, clearly this is like these are

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Speaker 1: the steps you need to take. And then if they

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Speaker 1: don't take them, because they're human and they have their

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Speaker 1: own interests and desires, like I have gotten frustrated in

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Speaker 1: the past, and that's like totally unfair and uh, something

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Speaker 1: that I just need to work on. I think, well,

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Speaker 1: it's you. We all have stuff to work on. But wait, so,

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Speaker 1: because you write a lot about traditional Korean cooking, and

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Speaker 1: it feels to me that there is an enormous amount

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Speaker 1: of process in that, in the process of cooking, in

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Speaker 1: the process of like shopping for the ingredients and the

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Speaker 1: whole thing. So is that an area where you're not

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Speaker 1: focused on the result, you really are in the journey.

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Speaker 1: Would you say that there's a lot of flow when

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Speaker 1: you're making food. I do think so. I think it

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Speaker 1: is like this really tactle intuitive thing where you don't

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Speaker 1: I'm not after anything really when I'm doing it. I

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Speaker 1: am like sort of in the process of that, and

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Speaker 1: I enjoy it and I don't have to mentally like

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Speaker 1: go after something in the same way that I go

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Speaker 1: after it in other parts of my life. And I

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Speaker 1: think that that's something that I've really enjoyed about cooking,

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Speaker 1: is because I'm such an analytical in my head person

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Speaker 1: and there's none of that really when you're cooking ng

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00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,520
Speaker 1: it's all you know, very You're very present and not

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Speaker 1: thinking about the future really at all, and um, your

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Speaker 1: mind kind of unbusies itself in this beautiful way that's

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Speaker 1: so interesting. So it's like that's a that is a meditation.

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Speaker 1: I mean that would be my description of of meditation

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Speaker 1: or the meditative quality of absolutely. Yeah, that's so funny.

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Speaker 1: I think I read in something I think it was

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Speaker 1: in a New Yorker in the excerpt from your book,

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Speaker 1: where you were like somebody said, you just add enough

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Speaker 1: something until it tastes like moms. Oh yeah, yeah, sessame

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Speaker 1: oil and things I don't sesame al to the taste

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Speaker 1: like your mom's. That was excellent and thank you. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: There's this meal that my mom would make for me

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Speaker 1: every time I came home from college. She would marinate

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Speaker 1: this short rib It's called Colby the sweet cream short

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Speaker 1: rib with white rice, uh, this white radish kimchi in

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Speaker 1: this really tart Brian sesame oil and red paper flakes

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Speaker 1: and then this radish kimchi, just the way that my mom.

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Speaker 1: It just is like a feeling, you know, it like

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Speaker 1: sits like here. Do you ever make that meal now?

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Speaker 1: Not often? Not often, because it doesn't taste as good

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Speaker 1: when you make it for yourself. Part of it is

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Speaker 1: that you don't have to do anything, and it's just

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Speaker 1: this person has gone through this whole process of like

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Speaker 1: marinating this thing two days before and buying all the

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Speaker 1: ingredients like weeks before you arrive, and just knowing that

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Speaker 1: there was so much thought that went into it. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't taste as good or mean as much when you

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Speaker 1: make it for yourself. It's so true. But okay, hold on,

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Speaker 1: I've got a plan. So it's your is yours. Your

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Speaker 1: husband is your husband a good cook? No, it's horrible,

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Speaker 1: it's horrible. Okay, forget him. Do you have a friend

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Speaker 1: who you love, who you could say, okay, can you

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Speaker 1: take a day? Don't tell me what it's going to be,

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Speaker 1: And I'm going to teach you and I teach them

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Speaker 1: how to make it and then just happen like on

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Speaker 1: your birthday. It surprised you with this meal, And I

392
00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 1: think that's a very good plan to see how I'm

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Speaker 1: to see how I'm trying to fix your You're you're

394
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,040
Speaker 1: not a problem, but you didn't have a problem. But

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm going to find a way to fix

396
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 1: you're not a problem. Where and when were you happiest?

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Speaker 1: It's so funny because it's such a childlike question to me,

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Speaker 1: and when that could be really be quantified by an

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Speaker 1: actual moment, Because I know that happiness is like lots

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00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:46,800
Speaker 1: of different things as we grow up, but like, if

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00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,520
Speaker 1: there is a time that you can think of, what

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Speaker 1: would it be? The thing that comes to mind first,

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Speaker 1: I guess is I think that when you're a child,

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Speaker 1: there's just such like unadulterated feeling in this way that

405
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 1: you never get back. I think I could certainly say

406
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 1: moments with my husband or when I feel the greatest joy.

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Speaker 1: But I grew up in Eugene, Oregon, which is a

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Speaker 1: really beautiful place to grow up, and my friends and

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Speaker 1: I used to visit this little hole in a fence

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Speaker 1: where we would go through and have access to the

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Speaker 1: limit river and we would sort of jump off these

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Speaker 1: rocks and let the current take us down maybe a

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Speaker 1: quarter mile before frantically swimming to shore and then uh

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Speaker 1: scrambling back up to do it again. And that is

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Speaker 1: maybe one of my favorite memories of just riding my

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Speaker 1: bike in in the summertime and not worrying about much

417
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 1: and and being in nature and the beautiful Pacific Northwest. God,

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00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,199
Speaker 1: that's amazing. That's a that's a good image climbing through

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Speaker 1: a hole in the fence, jumping in a river and

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Speaker 1: like letting the current take you that's like childhood in general.

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Speaker 1: But it is when there wasn't the same risk assess

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Speaker 1: this month that certainly for me as a mother, goes

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Speaker 1: with everything to do with my kid. I think our

424
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 1: parents were just so much freer with us. You know,

425
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:09,879
Speaker 1: I'd freak out of fights my son doing that, but

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Speaker 1: then I'd probably jump in and do it with him.

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Speaker 1: I don't think my parents were too excited about it,

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Speaker 1: but they frequently didn't, didn't know what I think, or

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00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 1: they just gave up. There are certainly worse things that

430
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 1: you can do, I guess, definitely, definitely. But it's it's

431
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,640
Speaker 1: so funny how that taking that risk, that the risk

432
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,359
Speaker 1: assessment risk metric, which doesn't exist as a child, where

433
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 1: you are just where you're free. You're free of second guessing,

434
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 1: and so happiness is innate in a way because it's

435
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 1: not clouded by worry or irritation or judgment or anything

436
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,119
Speaker 1: other than that present moment. I wish I could be

437
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 1: a bit more like that now, me too. I don't

438
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 1: know when that changed for me, you know, I think

439
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:58,159
Speaker 1: that when my mom passed away, my relationship to death

440
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 1: changed a lot. Similarly, my risk aversion and increased in

441
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 1: this strange way, because I think once you're really close

442
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 1: to how fragile life can be and how real death is.

443
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 1: In a way, I found myself really afraid in this

444
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 1: new way. Like I used to love, you know, jumping

445
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 1: off of high places into water, and now after that's happened,

446
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's necessarily because of that, or

447
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 1: I also just got older and became more afraid. I

448
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,639
Speaker 1: don't know if I wouldn't do it anymore, or like

449
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 1: even if I'm on a plane and there's turbulence, that's

450
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 1: something that I never was worried about, and now I'm

451
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 1: I'm just certain I'm going to die. I'm not going

452
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: to die. Oh my god. It's so it's so funny

453
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 1: because like it is something that we're going to die,

454
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,199
Speaker 1: and you say like that, like I'm certain we're going

455
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 1: to die at this moment. Losing someone you love so much,

456
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,160
Speaker 1: it does it makes you hang on to lie if

457
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 1: really tightly. But there must be a version of that

458
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 1: where you can love life with looser hands. You know that.

459
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 1: Actually it's like no, no, no, just just be here,

460
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 1: just be here now and be in this life because yeah,

461
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 1: it is over way quicker than it's one thing my

462
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: mom said it right as she was dying, was you know,

463
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 1: even if I had another another ten years. She was

464
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 1: eighty four. If I had another ten years, it still

465
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,160
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been enough. Like it goes by in an instant,

466
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 1: it's so quick. Just love it. Maybe remembering the immediacy.

467
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 1: It's so funny. I'm going to be thinking of that.

468
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:39,639
Speaker 1: If you crawling through a hole in the fence and

469
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,360
Speaker 1: jumping and moving water like it's so good, Like skidding

470
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 1: and cooling through holes. I think that was pretty much

471
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 1: my whole childhood as well. Yeah, I wish that there

472
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: was more of that type of play incorporated into adult life,

473
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 1: but I do think that that is fair. I mean,

474
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 1: I think I lived my life. I'm just so aware

475
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 1: of how limited my time is in a way that

476
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:07,199
Speaker 1: I've accomplished so much more in the past seven years

477
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: because I think I have so much to say before

478
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: it's over. I got married, I became successful as an

479
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: artist for the first time, I developed this incredible career,

480
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,199
Speaker 1: and really great stuff happened also, you know, and it

481
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,159
Speaker 1: felt almost like she was looking out for me in

482
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,919
Speaker 1: this way, and I feel like it really lit a

483
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: fire in me to make those things happen in a

484
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 1: way that I didn't have before, and that is a

485
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 1: more positive way of looking at at this these things. Yeah, yeah,

486
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 1: I mean the rare gifts that come with things that

487
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 1: are hard, that we don't incorporate into the narrative often

488
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: because we're too busy. We're too busy saying that they're hard.

489
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 1: You know, there's you know that that quote that Helen Keller.

490
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 1: We only ever ready say half of it, where where

491
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: one door closed as another one opens? But what she

492
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:04,159
Speaker 1: said was where and one door closes and another one opens.

493
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 1: I'm paraphrasing, we're so busy looking at the door that closed,

494
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: we forget to see the one that has opened. That's

495
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: actually the whole thing that she said. And I feel like,

496
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 1: since losing my mar I'm I want to look at

497
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 1: the door that is open. I felt every every second

498
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 1: of that door closing, and I really just so firmly

499
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: want to to look at the opening and to be

500
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 1: in this moment because you know, to carry on, maybe

501
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 1: to carry on the analogy. The door closes really really

502
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: fucking quickly. M Oh my gosh, it has been such

503
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 1: a pleasure. Um. I'd say I'm sorry about crying at

504
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 1: the beginning of arranty, but I'm actually not sorry. I'm

505
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 1: so grateful to have connected with the art that you're making.

506
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 1: It's brilliant and thanks for being here. Thank you so much.

507
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 1: You're so welcome. Michelle's new record, Jubilee, is out now,

508
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 1: and I strongly suggest that you have a listen and

509
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 1: dive into the world that she creates and her book

510
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: Crying in h Mark has just had the film right sports,

511
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: so you should read the book before you see the movie.

512
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: But I'm sure the movie will be awesome. Mini Questions

513
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: is hosted and written by Me Mini Driver, supervising producer

514
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 1: Aaron Kaufman, Producer Morgan Levoy, Research assistant Marissa Brown. Original

515
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 1: music Sorry Baby by Mini Driver, Additional music by Aaron Kaufman.

516
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: Executive produced by Me Mini Driver. Special thanks to Jim Nikolay,

517
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 1: Will Pearson, Addison No Day, Lisa Castella and Annique Oppenheim,

518
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: a w kPr de La Pescador, Kate Driver and Jason Weinberg,

519
00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: and for constantly solicited tech support, Henry Driver