1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Imagine this. You are just 2 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: standing on the corner on the sidewalk when someone comes 3 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: up to you, shoves you down, You hit your head 4 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 1: and die. Out of the blue dead. Now imagine it 5 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: happens to your mother, your sister, your grandmother. And then 6 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: to top it all off, cops can't find the purp. 7 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:54,319 Speaker 1: Now think about this. What if you find out the 8 00:00:54,440 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: perp is a woman that's statistically hyley improbable. But that 9 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: is what happened to a beloved voice coach, Barbara Gustern. 10 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: Out of the blue, This lady minding her own business 11 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: is shoved down on the sidewalk, She hits her head 12 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:29,759 Speaker 1: and dies by a complete stranger. What is going on? 13 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: The man hunt takes over the city. I'm Nancy Grace. 14 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us 15 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM one eleven. First 16 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: of all, take a listen to our friends at NBC four. 17 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: A single bouquet of flowers sits on twenty eighth Street tonight, 18 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: where Barbara Gustern was shoved to the ground last week. Today, 19 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: family announced that the beloved singer and renowned voice coach 20 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: did not survive, j I go here on it was 21 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: the hammer. On Barbara's Facebook page, her grandson posted a 22 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: photo of him holding her hand in the hospital, writing 23 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: today at eleven fifteen am, we've lost one of the 24 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: brightest little flames to ever grace this world. The tributes 25 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: came pouring in, and she was so wonderful. She was encouraging, 26 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: she was firm, She was the perfect teacher, that sharp, clever, 27 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: you know, season first and you know, it's like she 28 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 1: was amazing. Stephen Shanahan owns restaurant in Theater Pangaea, where 29 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 1: Barbara had recently performed and where she had hoped to 30 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: premiere a new cabaret show. They sang and they tell stories. 31 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: It's very heart wine, and they've done several different shows here. 32 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 1: You know, when I hear that, it immediately gave me 33 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 1: a flashback to being by my father's side when he 34 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: passed away and everyone else was saying, go ahead, you 35 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:02,359 Speaker 1: can go. I was whispering directly in his ear, Daddy, 36 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: don't go, Please don't go, Please stay here with me. 37 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: I don't know what Barbara Gusterne could hear or know, 38 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: as her beloved grandsons did by holding her hand but 39 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: I know this. She's dead, and I know this. Somebody 40 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: pushed her, and I know this. There's surveillance video out 41 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: there that is going to be highly significant. Now take 42 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at Inside Edition. The victim's grandson, 43 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: AJ Gustern, did what he could to comfort her in 44 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: her final days. I myself underestimated my grandmother's impacts on 45 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: the city and on folks. So it's just it's an 46 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: unspeakable tragedy. He took this photo grasping his grandmother's hand. 47 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: I was with her when she passed. I was holding 48 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: her hand. Lest Debbie Harry sang at Gustern's eighty fifth 49 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: birthday party, this, you know, special night to be here. 50 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: Gustn also took the mic at her party. My dear, dear, 51 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: dear students and friends and they make my life happen. Wow. 52 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: I didn't realize that she was the voice coach for 53 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: Debbie Harry. Didn't she do? Did she do? Heart of 54 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: Glass and so many others, and this was her voice coach. 55 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 1: As the tributes come pouring in, this reminds me so 56 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 1: much of being in court. I could not let myself 57 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:42,160 Speaker 1: get sucked into the emotional tornado, the twister that was happening, 58 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: because it makes you unable to focus on the facts 59 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 1: and evidence you need to get justice. So what do 60 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 1: we know about what happened to this beloved woman? Take 61 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: a listen to our cut in seven from Inside Edition. 62 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: On the night she was killed, Gusterne was on her 63 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: way to see her students, Sonda Vigel perform at Joe's Pub, 64 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: a popular cabaret, which I was looking like always to 65 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 1: see her, and the audience said they couldn't see her, 66 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: And I very much hope that they will find this person. 67 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 1: To end that way is just hurts it. Catherine Crockett 68 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: was a student and friend. She said Gusterne gave her 69 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: and countless others the confidence to go after their dreams. 70 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 1: After several months, she said to me, she said, you know, 71 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 1: she said, you have a great voice. You can call 72 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: yourself a singer. You've got a great voice. You can 73 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: call yourself a singer, a teacher, a voice coach, to 74 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 1: some of the biggest stars in the musical sky. And 75 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: now she's dead. Why who is this woman that pushed 76 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: this lady down, killing her. I was just thinking about 77 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 1: what the one student just said. She was supposed to 78 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: be there that night, and I kept looking out in 79 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: the audience for her. It reminds me of the twins 80 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: when they would be, I don't know, jumping in the 81 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: water or singing a song or doing karaoke in the playroom, 82 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: and they always look back at me. Are you looking? 83 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 1: Are you looking? Mom? Are you listening? Did you see that? 84 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 1: It's almost as if it's not really happening unless that 85 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: special person is looking, it's seeing you. And that's what 86 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: Barbara Gusterne was to so many people, that special person. 87 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: Is she looking? Did you hear me? What do we 88 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: know about the facts? Take a listen to our friends 89 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 1: at NBC four. Barbara was walking half a block away 90 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: from home when video shows a woman come from behind 91 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 1: and push her and then take off. According to family, 92 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: Barbara suffered traumatic brain damage. We're asking the public's help 93 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: and solving this disgusting and disgraceful offense committed against the 94 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: vulnerable elderly female who is doing nothing but walking down 95 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: the street. While the family makes funeral arrangements, the police 96 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: are putting up these flyers all over the neighborhood. They're 97 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: offering a thirty five hundred dollar reward for any information 98 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: that helps them find the woman in that video who 99 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: would pick a frill little old lady seemingly with the 100 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: voice of an angel and push her down, making her 101 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: hit her head on the sidewalk and die. With me 102 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: and all star panel to make sense of what we 103 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: know right now. First of all, high profile lawyer joining 104 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: me out of La Troy Slayton. You can find him 105 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: on Twitter at Troy Slayton. We're now psychiatrists joining us 106 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Doctor Angela Arnold at doctor 107 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: Angela Arnold MD dot com. Doctor Kendall Crown's chief medical Examiner, 108 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: Tier County. That's Fort Worth Lecturer, University of Texas, Texas, 109 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: say An m and University Texas Medical Branch. Paul Zeite, 110 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: former police commander, joining me out of Albuquerque, author of 111 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: Stop Him From Killing Them on Amazon. But first to 112 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: our special guests joining us, Rebecca Rosenberg, Fox News Digital 113 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: and author of At Any Cost. Rebecca, thank you so 114 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: much for joining us. It's really hard for me to believe, 115 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: but it seems to show up accurately on video. This 116 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:39,439 Speaker 1: little little lady, an eighty seven year old voice coach 117 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: with the voice of an Angel is standing there on 118 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: the sidewalk when an unnamed, unknown woman with long red 119 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: hair comes up to her and just shoves her. And 120 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: I believe the evidence says she called Barbara a bitch. Yes, 121 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,680 Speaker 1: that looks like that's what what happened. It seems unclear 122 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: if an altercation occurred beforehand, but please, some prosecutors have 123 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 1: given us no indication, so it was described as a 124 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: completely unprovoked attack. Wait a minute, Wait a minute, Rebecca Rosenberg. Rebecca, 125 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: the video shows a young white ish female with red 126 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: hair walking toward the eighty seven year old woman and 127 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: pushing her down. Now, am I right or wrong? Did 128 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: this woman walked across the street to get to Barbara? Yes, 129 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 1: you are right? Okay? Whoa so right? There to you? Choice? Layton. 130 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:55,719 Speaker 1: If this little old lady had stepped in front of 131 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 1: the purp had shoved her or head, I don't know, 132 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: not bag out of her hands by accident, that's one thing. 133 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: But then there is under the law what we call 134 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: the cooling off period. And let me be clear, there 135 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: is no evidence these two, the red headed woman and Barbara, 136 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: an eighty seven year old voice coach to the stars, 137 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:26,439 Speaker 1: had ever met or had any interaction at all. What 138 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 1: we know from the video is you see the voice 139 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: coach standing there, and the perp walks across the street 140 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: to her and shoves her down. If there'd been any altercation, 141 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: like the the low woman running into her or getting 142 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: in her way, that would not matter under the law 143 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 1: because of the cooling off period. She went across the 144 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 1: street to shove the old lady to her death. Nancy 145 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: pushing someone who's on the sidewalk. Pushing someone who's on 146 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: the street, if they even have the right person. Because 147 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: the video shows her going near the victim, it does 148 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 1: not actually show the shove. We don't see the actual 149 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: shove on video at this time. But even assuming that 150 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: she did push her, pushing someone on the sidewalk isn't 151 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: the same as, you know, pushing someone onto the subway tracks. 152 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 1: It's not like someone in front of a tape. You 153 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: push somebody on a New York street and they fall 154 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: in the street. You think those cars and calves and 155 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 1: shrugs are gonna stop. It's like stepping at directly out 156 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: of your front door onto seventy five. That's what it's 157 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: like to live in New York. Trust me, I know 158 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 1: to push somebody down on a sidewalk, it's not the 159 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,719 Speaker 1: same as pushing them in the street. You don't. You 160 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: can someone say that the woman died from the blow 161 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: on her head on a playground and if the woman dies, 162 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:01,679 Speaker 1: that's homicide. Well, just because you have an eggshell plaintiff 163 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: doesn't doesn't mean that this person intended for her to die, 164 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: not created to kill in extreme danger. The law doesn't. Hey, 165 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: I don't know who you think you're talking to, but 166 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:19,439 Speaker 1: I didn't just fall off the turnip truck. You're talking 167 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 1: to a trial lawyer, and the law says that the 168 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 1: law presumes you intend the consequence of your act. You 169 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: shove an eighty seven year old woman down on a 170 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: cement sidewalk, then you can presume she will hit her head, 171 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: and you can't presume there will be a head injury. 172 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 1: And that's exactly what happened here. Spring Breakers and parents, beware. 173 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: The disappearance of honor student Natalie Holloway is a warning. 174 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: We had to Aruba with Natalie's mom. What can we learn? 175 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace is shucking new and investigation streaming now only 176 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: on Fox Nation. Sign up Today Time Stories with Nancy Grace, 177 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 1: Ductor Kendall Brown, put aside, your autopsy, tell me what 178 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: a traumatic injury like this is, and isn't it true 179 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: it can occur as a result of a shove to 180 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 1: a cement sidewalk. So yes, it can occur due to 181 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 1: a shove to a cement sidewalk. A lot of people 182 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: don't understand. If you fall from a standing height and 183 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,079 Speaker 1: you aren't able to catch yourself, you can actually get 184 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 1: a skull fracture, and then the injury that it results 185 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: inside your head causes bleeding on the brain, bruising of 186 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: the brain. And the problem with the elderly is as 187 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: we age, our brain slowly starts to shrink or atrophy, 188 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: and when this happens, the vessels that come off the 189 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: brain start to stretch. In any shaking of the head 190 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: can result in those vescials tearing, which results in bleeding 191 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: in the space between the brain and the skull called 192 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: the dural space, and that results in a subdural hemorrhage. 193 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: And if you get enough blood occupying that space, it 194 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: shoves your brain kind of down through this hole at 195 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: the base of the skull called the Foreman magnum, and 196 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 1: that pinches your brain stem and kills you, So it 197 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: can happen to anybody. If you fall from a standing 198 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: height and hitch your head, you can get skull fractures 199 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 1: and bleeding on your brain like that. So it doesn't 200 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: matter if you're elderly or if you're young. It's being 201 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: shoved or punched in the face and falling to the 202 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: ground from a standing height is actually very dangerous. I'm 203 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: trying to take everything in that you just said, so 204 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: choicely before we unlash him from the meat baton again. 205 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: High profile LA law, you're joining us. He knows his 206 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: way around the courtroom with a sterling reputation. I might add, 207 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: he's with slighting lawyers there in LA. The law does 208 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: not require the intent to kill. For instance, if I 209 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: take a gun and I pointed at Jackie right there 210 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 1: and pull the trigger, and then I might, oh, wait, 211 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 1: I didn't mean to kill her. I just meant to 212 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 1: scare her. B s says the law you intend the 213 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: natural consequence of your act. You shove an eighty seven 214 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: year old woman down on the sidewalk, she hits her head, 215 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 1: then the law presumes you meant to cause a head 216 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: injury that resulted in death. You want to you want 217 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: to fight some more. Yeah, in New York. In New York, Nancy. 218 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: To be charged with first degree manslaughter, you have to 219 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: have an intent to cause injury. Intend to cause injury, 220 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: that's typical injury, that's right, or injury. You know what? 221 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: What about it? Let's go to Paul Zike, former police commander. 222 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: My mother will be ninety one in December. If somebody 223 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: shoves her down on a sidewalk, it will kill her. 224 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: And I know that, and I have to be careful 225 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: and watch over her every single day to make sure 226 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: that doesn't happen. Help me out. You shove an eighty 227 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: seven year old woman down on us ament sidewalk and 228 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: then to argue you didn't mean to hurt her. And 229 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: that's a good point, Nancy, And the and the charge 230 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: of manslaughter is definitely appropriate in this case. Um, you 231 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 1: know it's it's likely to cause I mean, if you 232 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: go behind somebody and they're not prepared, they're not thinking 233 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: they're going to be pushed. You do that, even to 234 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: somebody who's younger, and you forcefully push them from behind, Um, 235 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: you know they may not have the time to get 236 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: their hands out in front to stop their head from 237 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 1: from bouncing off the concrete, and uh, it just exacerbates 238 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: that we have someone who's eighty, you know, eight years 239 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 1: old and they're they're your reef lexus slow. And I 240 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: think it shows intent that the person across the street 241 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 1: went up to this individual and U, you know, carried 242 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,400 Speaker 1: out the attack. Yeah, it's not homicide, it's not first 243 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:15,400 Speaker 1: to murder, but it's certainly a reckless boy. When did 244 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 1: you go to law school? See, I just got to 245 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: hear your former police commander, did you go to law school? 246 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 1: Well no, ma'am. Have you ever heard this area? A 247 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 1: felony murder When you commit a crime, a felony such 248 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,440 Speaker 1: as an attack when the elderly and they die as 249 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: a result of that attack, then you were charged with 250 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:40,920 Speaker 1: felony murder. A death occurs during the commission of a felony. 251 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: Now I need you to study that Paul's eye, because 252 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: that's exactly what this is. Yeah. I take a listen 253 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:50,119 Speaker 1: to our friends at Inside Edition. She's a wanted woman 254 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: saw it for what cops are calling a disgraceful crime. 255 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: She allegedly pushed an elderly woman to her death. The 256 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: victim was legendary vocal coach Barbara Mayor Gustern, who coached 257 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: many famous singers, including Blondie's Debbie Harry during her Heart 258 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 1: of Glass Hayden. It happened here in Chelsea neighborhood. Police 259 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:14,640 Speaker 1: say Barbara Mayor Gustern was violently pushed to the ground 260 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: by her female assailant. She hit her head. She remained 261 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:22,120 Speaker 1: on life support before passing away one week later. The 262 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: surveillance video of the wanted woman was taken moments after 263 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 1: the assault, which copsay was unprovoked. Cop say she actually 264 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: crossed the street to deliberately push the elderly woman. Let's 265 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: get our special guests joining us. Rebecca Rosenberg with Fox 266 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: News Digital. Rebecca, what is the evidence that the purp 267 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 1: the redheaded woman actually shoved Barbara. So there is a 268 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: witness who saw this whole thing and went to help 269 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: the woman afterwards, brought her into her building. And then 270 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,199 Speaker 1: there's also video surveillance, and I don't believe it of 271 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: the actual shove, but of the aftermath, and they got 272 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 1: a very clear image of her right afterwards. She was 273 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:13,439 Speaker 1: identified by the witness and two people, and the were 274 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: multiple cameras that placed near there throughout the whole Ali 275 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: so the eyewitnesses can say that woman on the video 276 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: is the one that showed the old lady to the ground. Yes, guys, 277 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 1: take a listen to Eric cut eleven from NBC four. 278 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 1: This attack happened on March tenth, from twenty eighth Street 279 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: and Chelsea on Gustrn's block. Detectives gave a surveillance from 280 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: that night. They say that she stayed in the area 281 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: for about a half an hour and left only after 282 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: she saw an ambulance arrive. We now know that investigators 283 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 1: tracked her movements through the subway when she met up 284 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 1: with her fiance, all the way until they got to 285 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: their apartment in Astoria. I'd like to stress, and it's 286 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: until proven guilty. You know, if she did do this, 287 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: then I would like answers. But this woman deserves her 288 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: day in court. Why police know they aren't sharing that tonight. 289 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: They are telling us that the suspect cursed at the 290 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,920 Speaker 1: victim and before she died, the victim told police that 291 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: the push was as hard as she's ever been hit 292 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,160 Speaker 1: in her life. I feel very vilner long. I look, 293 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: I'm older, and I have a keene that just squeams 294 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 1: start up with me because I can't defend myself. I 295 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,400 Speaker 1: will to the death, but you know, it makes you 296 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: feel like you have a target on your back, you know. 297 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 1: To doctor Angela Arnold joining us, we're now a psychiatrists 298 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Doctor Angie, thank you for 299 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:37,120 Speaker 1: being with us. Did you hear the elderly neighbor saying, 300 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: I feel like now I've got a target on my back? 301 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: I walk with a game it just screams out hit me. Well, 302 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,880 Speaker 1: I think it's also a reminder that elderly people can 303 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 1: be very can be very vulnerable just walking down the street. 304 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 1: We're all vulnerable. But as you said, an elderly person 305 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: knocked down on the street by somebody who who in 306 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 1: the world knows what her intentions were. That's what I'm wondering, 307 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,880 Speaker 1: what were her intentions? But yes, I believe an elderly 308 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,199 Speaker 1: woman walking down the street with a cane is a 309 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: vulnerable human being. Well, that's the thing about the law, 310 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: doctor Angela Arnold. The law does not require a prosecutor 311 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: to wander around in the mind of a killer and 312 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: figure out, wow, what were they thinking? Motive? It's not required. 313 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: So what we do have to prove as prosecutors is 314 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 1: jurisdiction and the Act Time Stories with Nancy Grace and 315 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: back to Rebecca Rosenberg joining us from Fox News Digital. 316 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 1: Would you explain again exactly what we think the video 317 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 1: and witnesses say happened to Miss Gustern. Yes, so, I 318 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 1: think the strongest bit of evidence here is the eyewitness 319 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 1: who actually saw the assault and and went and helped 320 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 1: the woman, brought her to the lobby of the building, 321 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: and Miss Gustern told her, you know, this woman crossed 322 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: the street, she called me a bit. She shoved me 323 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: harder than I've ever been shoved in my life before 324 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 1: losing consciousness. And then that eyewitness, after they pulled surveillance 325 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: video that showed her fleeing, identified the woman in that 326 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 1: surveillance footage as the woman who shoves that she saw 327 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: shoved Miss Gustern. Police began to hone in on who 328 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:55,120 Speaker 1: they believe brought about the death of this beloved eighty 329 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 1: seven year old woman. Can I tell you my mom, 330 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: who typically was taller than me her whole life, her 331 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 1: whole life, Now she's about this tall. My mother, who 332 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:15,880 Speaker 1: was such a powerhouse, so dynamic and her younger years, 333 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: she's this tall. Now and I think of missus Gustrin 334 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: standing there on the sidewalk, a busy sidewalk, and a 335 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: young bit woman walks across the street to call her 336 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 1: a bitch and shove her down. She hits her head 337 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: and then dies. As police hone in on who may 338 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: have done this thing, they come up with a name. 339 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut fourteen. Our friends at 340 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: Inside Edition. Authorities say Pasienza and her fiance, who works 341 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,640 Speaker 1: for Microsoft, gone into the subway at Penn Station. They 342 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: transferred at Times Square and then took the train to 343 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 1: their apartment in Queen's leaving a digital trail with the 344 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:08,959 Speaker 1: fiance's MetroCard. Pazienza allegedly spent the next few hours taking 345 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,920 Speaker 1: down all her social media and photos, including the website 346 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 1: for her June wedding. Police say the day after Gustern died, 347 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,160 Speaker 1: Pasienza went into hiding at her parents Long Island home. 348 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,680 Speaker 1: She stayed there for two weeks. Meanwhile, she must have 349 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: known that police were on her tail. They released video 350 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: of her at the crime scene and plastered wanted posters 351 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,360 Speaker 1: across the city. On Monday, two people who knew her 352 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: well called in the tip detectives went to her parents home. 353 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: Her father reportedly told them she wasn't there, but wouldn't 354 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 1: let them search the house. The next day, she knew 355 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 1: it was over, and she turned herself in. So two 356 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: people that recognize the wanted posters turn her in. That's 357 00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:00,080 Speaker 1: what we're hearing now. So give me a description and 358 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: of the woman, Rebecca Rosenberg. What does she look like. 359 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: She is a young, fit woman in her twenties, quite attractive, 360 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: with long red hair. That's I mean, she just looked 361 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: like a regular person, you know. I'm I'm interested in 362 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:23,640 Speaker 1: the way she was tracked by, not only the video 363 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: surveillance on the sidewalk, but then as she stood around 364 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:32,479 Speaker 1: and watched the aftermath. Did you hear that, doctor Angela Arnold, 365 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: this red headed woman stood by and watched the aftermath, 366 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:42,400 Speaker 1: I guess across the street, did you hear that? I did, Nancy. 367 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 1: I believe. I believe that it shows a gruesome level 368 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: of evil. Okay, she pushes this woman down, and then 369 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: she wants to watch and see what happens. And then 370 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 1: she this woman, this woman knew everything she was doing, 371 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: and then she goes home, takes down her social media 372 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 1: hides from everybody. There is no way that anyone can 373 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 1: ever say that there's any insanity involved in this. Okay, 374 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 1: she knew every step of the way what she was doing, 375 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: So Troyce Layton, high profile LA criminal defense attorney, Troyce Layton, 376 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: you think it's just a coincidence that she goes home, 377 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: hides out for two weeks, and takes down all of 378 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: her social media and hides her cell phone, including taking 379 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 1: on the website for her gene wedding. While prosecutors are 380 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: going to say, Nancy, if you were prosecuting the case, 381 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 1: I'm sure you would say that all of those things 382 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: show consciousness of guilt, and they show her trying to 383 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: cover up her tracks, and fourth that that shows a 384 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:56,679 Speaker 1: guilty mind. But I read her allegedly standing there and 385 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:02,479 Speaker 1: watching emergency services take care of the of the elderly victim. 386 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:07,120 Speaker 1: I read that differently. Maybe she was there feeling guilty, 387 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,199 Speaker 1: feeling bad, feeling remorse for what she had done, and 388 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,640 Speaker 1: making sure that the person was being taken care of, 389 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: making sure that can we get back to deleting all 390 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: of our social media, making sure that she was being 391 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: taken care of by emergency services? Why didn't she was 392 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,640 Speaker 1: worried about the lady. Why didn't he help her? Help 393 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 1: the lady because she's not she's a young woman in 394 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: her twenty's. You're going to leave that to the medical professionals. Okay, 395 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: did you just really say that? Did he say that, 396 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: doctor Angie, he did? Didn't he? Okay? Never mind. I 397 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 1: know the answer to that myself. Take a listen now 398 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 1: to our cut ten, our friends at NBC four, the 399 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: police detailing tonight how they say that she tried to 400 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: evade capture for weeks. They tell us that she quit 401 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: her job, deleted all of our social media, got rid 402 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: of her wedding website. She was supposed to get married 403 00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 1: in June. They also say that she stashed her cell 404 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: phone at her aunt's house and then hit out at 405 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: her parents house on Long Island. Midday Tuesday, we finally 406 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: saw twenty six year old Lauren Pazienza, her hair draped 407 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 1: over her face, refusing to talk, just after police charged 408 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 1: her with manslaughter, saying that she shoved and killed eighty 409 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 1: seven year old Barberagustern. I think she was a grappy person. 410 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: I mean, who goes around chevy an old woman. Gustern 411 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 1: was of a loved Broadway voice coach. She gave lessons 412 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 1: to the greats. Her grandson is still trying to process 413 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 1: losing her and the arrest. Yeah, there is a sense 414 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,920 Speaker 1: of closure. Back to Rebecca Rosenberg joining us from Fox 415 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: News Digital. What do we know about this woman? Twenty 416 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: six year old Lauren Patienza. So we know she's from 417 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: a pretty good neighborhood, Port Jefferson, Long Island. She went 418 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: to the Fashion Institute of Technology where she graduated, and 419 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: she had a good job. It's unscored back to where 420 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 1: she was working right before this, but she had been 421 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 1: working at a high end furniture store prior to that 422 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 1: as an event planner, and she was engaged to her 423 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: high school sweetheart who works for Microsoft, and they were 424 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: supposed to get married in June. You know, we're learning 425 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: a lot about people about her through people that have 426 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: lived with her, lived with her in the apartment building, 427 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: people that went to school with her in the past. 428 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 1: Are you familiar with any of that, Rebecca Rosenberg. In fact, 429 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: one boy that she went to elementary school with says 430 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: he was so traumatized by this woman. Even when she 431 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: was in like second grade, she was a bully. Yeah, 432 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: so she had a reputation of being a bully that 433 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: kids said that, you know, the teacher had to separate 434 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: them in the classroom, she would kick him. She would 435 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: call other kids names. And then at the building where 436 00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: she lived with her fiance, a lot of the tennants 437 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: there said she was difficult. She was known for complaining 438 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: a lot, and that there were I spoke with one 439 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 1: tenant who said there were a lot of incidents that 440 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: occurred out front, but she wouldn't go into the details, 441 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 1: but she seemed to you know, that this wasn't a 442 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: total aberration. There was some odd behavior that occurred before 443 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: this to doctor Angel l Arnolds psychiatrists joining us a bullet, 444 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: you know what, I still remember, and it bothers me 445 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 1: to this day. I wish I knew the little girl's name. 446 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: In the second grade, I cut in line on a 447 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: little girl who was wedding to cross the monkey bars. 448 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 1: And I don't remember doing it intentionally, but I turned 449 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: around a sorrow face and she was sad. Dad has 450 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 1: stuck with me the rest of my life. I still 451 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: feel bad about it, about cutting in in front of 452 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: somebody into second grade, for Pete's sake, I mean, nobody 453 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 1: wants to be known as a bullet. No one was 454 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: to hurt other people's feelings. Well and Nancy, this is why, 455 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: this is why we look into people's backgrounds and see 456 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: when did this? When did these kinds of things happen? 457 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: Did you were you killing animals? Were you starting small fires? 458 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: All of these things are indicative of what you become 459 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: when you're an adult, and it doesn't go away. You 460 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 1: and I would not walk down the street anywhere if 461 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: no matter what anybody did to us, we would not 462 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: shove an old woman down. No way. I'm just looking 463 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 1: at this behavior, kicking and tormenting another little boy, and 464 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: this set grade and to be a girl on top 465 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 1: of that, to do that, I'm sorry to be thinking. 466 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: People say I'm sorry, but they're about to say something 467 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: really wrong. Okay, this is a little bit more of 468 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,719 Speaker 1: what we are learning. Take a listen to our cut 469 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:55,239 Speaker 1: fifteen crimal line dot COM's Dave mac. Twenty six year 470 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: old Lauren Pazienza grew up in Long Island, where her dad, Daniel, 471 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: runs a successful business that was previously ranked the number 472 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 1: one cesspool company in Suffolk County. Growing up in this 473 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: upper middle class area, a former classmate, who spoke to 474 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: Fox News Digital on the condition of anonymity, claimed that 475 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 1: when he moved a few doors down from Posienza in 476 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 1: the second grade, she began bullying him. The classmate says 477 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: the defendant always had a crazy look in her eyes 478 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 1: and alleges that she would kick him and call other 479 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: kids names. He also claimed that a teacher had to 480 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: move their seats apart in one classroom due to the bullying. 481 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: At ward Melville High School, a teacher told Fox News 482 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: Digital that her colleagues with children who went to the 483 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: school with Posienza recalled her as odd Troice Letton defense attorney, 484 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 1: aren't you glad that similar transactions don't go all the 485 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: way back to the second grade or the jury be 486 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 1: hearing about that? Yeah, I'm glad that there's no habits 487 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: in routine evidence that goes back to second grade Nancy. 488 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: But even if she was a bully, even if she 489 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: is an awful person, even if she is a strange 490 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 1: look in her eyes, doesn't mean that she's a murderer, 491 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 1: does and it doesn't mean that she's guilty of first 492 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: degree manslaughter. I think that the prophet none of that is, 493 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 1: None of that is admissible. And none of that means 494 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: this is second degree manslaughter. None of that is admissible 495 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,959 Speaker 1: in court. I agree with you. None of that means 496 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: that this woman, Lauren Patty Pasenza, is a killer. However, 497 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 1: I do agree to some extent with Sigmund Freud. I 498 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: think by the age of four, you're set. You may 499 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: vary a little bit in your personality, but that's it. 500 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 1: And here at second grade she's bullying people in her class. Interesting. 501 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: I'd like to hear what she has to say in 502 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 1: response to that. Take a listen now to our cut 503 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 1: sixteen again from crime online dot Com. After graduating high 504 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 1: school in twenty thirteen, Lauren Pasienza attended the Fashion Institute 505 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: of Technology in Manhattan and worked as an events coordinator 506 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: for a high end French furniture company. She was seen 507 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,720 Speaker 1: gallivanting around town attending swanky parties in art gallery openings 508 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: before she resigned her position last December, but neighbors at 509 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 1: the upscale Estoria condo where she lives with her fiancee 510 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 1: said she wasn't all smiles at home. Law enforcement sources 511 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,479 Speaker 1: say that Pasienza was a known nuisance in the Shore 512 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 1: Towers and had previously called cops on her neighbors. A 513 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:29,880 Speaker 1: woman who lives in the building says there was always 514 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: an issue with her and someone in the building. It's 515 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,839 Speaker 1: always like something with that lady. Another man who also 516 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 1: lives in the building described her as definitely not the 517 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 1: best tenant. Again, I've got to agree, and it pains 518 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: me to do so. With Troyce Layton, none of that 519 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:51,399 Speaker 1: a murder makes, but maybe this does. Take a Listen 520 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 1: to our cut thirteen our friends at Inside Edition. We're 521 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: learning more about the young woman accused of an unspeakable crime, 522 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,799 Speaker 1: shoving elderly lady to her death for no reason, police say. 523 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,799 Speaker 1: Six minutes after the unprovoked attack, the suspect, twenty six 524 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 1: year old Lauren Pazienza, walked back to the scene and 525 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,719 Speaker 1: watched an ambulance take away the elderly woman, eighty seven 526 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 1: year old Barbara Gusterne, a renowned singing coach. The suspect's 527 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: high powered lawyer, Arthur Idalla, spoke to reporters after her 528 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,719 Speaker 1: arrangement and previewed what may bee her defense. Whether it 529 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 1: was a push or whether it was a show of 530 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 1: or whether it was a kick or whether someone tripped. 531 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,239 Speaker 1: The evidence is not very solid on that at all. 532 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 1: Police say the victim remained conscious long enough to tell 533 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,880 Speaker 1: them her assailant, who she had never met before, crossed 534 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,280 Speaker 1: the street, then called her the B word and pushed 535 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,839 Speaker 1: her as hard as she had ever been hit in 536 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: her life. Matt Rebecca Rosenberg Box Knees, digital crime reporter, again, 537 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. Has this woman, Lauren 538 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 1: Pasienza maid bond? Did Daddy come pay your bond? Not yet? 539 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 1: Her attorney says that they are trying to pull it together, 540 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,560 Speaker 1: pull the money together. They're actually pulling money with friends 541 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,719 Speaker 1: and family to be able to post the percentage of 542 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,719 Speaker 1: the bond they would have to post. But she is 543 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,799 Speaker 1: still in Rikers. We actually went to try and visit 544 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 1: her yesterday. She declined our visit, but we briefly saw her. 545 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,479 Speaker 1: She came out in her gray jumpsuits and her long 546 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:33,880 Speaker 1: hair was disheveled, looked at us, turned around and walked away. Rebecca, 547 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: what do you think is going to happen? I think 548 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,400 Speaker 1: she is well. Actually, I learned an interesting little tidbit today, 549 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 1: which is that she's been in touch with her fiance 550 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:46,319 Speaker 1: from jail and they're still together. So I don't know 551 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: I hope they're not planning on having a June wedding 552 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,479 Speaker 1: when she gets bailed out. That would be pretty bad 553 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 1: optics for her. Rebecca, what else do you know that 554 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 1: they're trying, that the family's pulling together money to try 555 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,320 Speaker 1: and make bail within the next forty eight hours. He 556 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,880 Speaker 1: is what her lawyer said to doctor Kendall Crowns joining 557 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 1: US Chief Medical exam or Tarrant County. That's fort Worth, 558 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 1: the voice coach. The little old lady, eighty seven year 559 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:16,920 Speaker 1: old Barbara Gusterne suffer traumatic damage to the left side 560 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:22,399 Speaker 1: of her brain. She was intubated. What does all that mean? 561 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,760 Speaker 1: So when she fell, she probably struck her head, probably 562 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 1: received a skull fracture of some sorts, but also internally 563 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: her brain. When you fall will hit the side of 564 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 1: your skull and it will get bruising or contusions and 565 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 1: will also tear and cause bleedings. So that's probably the 566 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:45,280 Speaker 1: head trauma that they're talking about. And then intubation means 567 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,320 Speaker 1: is after the brain swelling gets to a certain point, 568 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:52,319 Speaker 1: you're having difficulty maintaining your breathing and so they have 569 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,400 Speaker 1: to put a tube down your mouth to help you breathe. 570 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 1: Is there a difference whether you're hit on the left 571 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:00,760 Speaker 1: or the right side of the brain. It make a difference, 572 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,319 Speaker 1: not really, because you know, you have two sides of 573 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,879 Speaker 1: your brains or two hemisphere of your brain, and each 574 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,359 Speaker 1: hemisphere kind of does redundant things. So you might get 575 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 1: paralysis on one side of your body, do the damage 576 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,280 Speaker 1: of one side of your brain, but you can still 577 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:21,359 Speaker 1: stay alive. Guys, more of what we know regarding the 578 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 1: actual crime that led to the death of a beloved 579 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,600 Speaker 1: voice coach to the stars. Take a listen to our 580 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,319 Speaker 1: cut eight our friends at NBC. The suspect and the 581 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,960 Speaker 1: homicide of a beloved Broadway singing coach that shocked the 582 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 1: city turns herself in accompanied by her lawyer. Twenty six 583 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 1: year old Lauren Posienza, seen here leaving a Manhattan precinct, 584 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,359 Speaker 1: is facing manslaughter and assault charges for the death of 585 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 1: Barbara Gustern. According to the NYPD Pozsienza allegedly approached Gustern 586 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 1: from behind and pushed the eighty seven year old, causing 587 00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:02,880 Speaker 1: her to fall and hit her head. According to her grandson, 588 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,240 Speaker 1: she suffered traumatic damage to the left side of her brain, 589 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,720 Speaker 1: and five days later he posted this photo of himself 590 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,319 Speaker 1: holding his grandmother's hand in the hospital, writing she had 591 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:16,840 Speaker 1: passed away due to her injuries. The motive behind the 592 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 1: assault is still unknown. Surveillance stills were widely circulated by 593 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,719 Speaker 1: authorities in the days before she surrendered to police. The 594 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 1: Manhattan DA's office alleges they have evidence Pazienza watched the 595 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,759 Speaker 1: ambulance arrive at the scene and shortly after deleted her 596 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,480 Speaker 1: social media to Paul Yke joining me, former police commander 597 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 1: in Albuquerque, Paul, you and I've seen a lot of killers, 598 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 1: a lot of criminals. There are criminals that have had 599 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,239 Speaker 1: no education, they can't find a job, that have had 600 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:54,799 Speaker 1: horrible childhoods where they were abused and mistreated, where their 601 00:39:54,840 --> 00:40:01,760 Speaker 1: relatives are in jail it's commonplace. Then there are defendants 602 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 1: who are privileged, educated, college degrees, loving parents, silverspoon in 603 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,640 Speaker 1: their mouth under the law. Lady, justice doesn't care what 604 00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:18,320 Speaker 1: your background is. But I have always inside held those 605 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:23,320 Speaker 1: privileged defendants and more contempt because they had it all. 606 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:28,359 Speaker 1: They know what they are doing is wrong, and they 607 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:34,160 Speaker 1: have the means to be successful, to be good people 608 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 1: in this world, to make a living for themselves, not 609 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,840 Speaker 1: resort to crime, no reason to be mean or hateful, 610 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:47,319 Speaker 1: in fact, every reason to be good. Paul, it's extremely sad. 611 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:49,920 Speaker 1: I mean, anytime somebody turns to a life of crime 612 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,279 Speaker 1: or an incident like this, it's horrendous. I mean, I 613 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:55,400 Speaker 1: think a couple of things here to look at is 614 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 1: this really reminds me of arsonists who come back to 615 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,120 Speaker 1: the scene and watch the fire burn. You know, she 616 00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,440 Speaker 1: hung around for thirty minutes. One could say, as it 617 00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:06,560 Speaker 1: was argued, that they wanted to make sure or she 618 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,239 Speaker 1: wanted to make sure they got medical attention. I think 619 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 1: there's another side to that, and that is they want 620 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,799 Speaker 1: to see the results of their work, what they did, 621 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:17,359 Speaker 1: and then they went on a standard flight. I mean, 622 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,440 Speaker 1: it'd be no different if somebody who's wanted for murder, 623 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:21,600 Speaker 1: That's exactly what they would do. Take the cell phone, 624 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,319 Speaker 1: put in somebody else's house to throw the officers off 625 00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 1: the trail. They know they can track that cell phone, 626 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:31,000 Speaker 1: as well as deleting her social media standard guilty mind 627 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:35,160 Speaker 1: type of response flight. And in this case, like you said, 628 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:38,480 Speaker 1: well to do family. But I think that turned her 629 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:43,319 Speaker 1: into a spoiled, rotten breat in an unfortunate matter from 630 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:49,359 Speaker 1: so much revelege if prosecutor, is that police right? This 631 00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:56,080 Speaker 1: young woman had it all instead, has murdered a beloved 632 00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:03,120 Speaker 1: eighty seven year old voice coach, a beautiful voice that 633 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:10,719 Speaker 1: is now forever silenced, at least in this world. We 634 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,880 Speaker 1: wait as just as unfalls. Nancy Grace Crumbs Story Signing 635 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:15,080 Speaker 1: Up