WEBVTT - Policing for Profit.  Tim Sandefur Talks to Armstrong & Getty

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<v Speaker 1>There are now more than one thousand cases in thirty

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<v Speaker 1>eight states. In Washington, d see the largest cluster in

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<v Speaker 1>the country. It's happening in the New York City suburb

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<v Speaker 1>of New Rochelle. The National Guard has been called at

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<v Speaker 1>New states of emergency have been declared in Colorado, Massachusetts,

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<v Speaker 1>and Michigan. We will see more cases and things will

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<v Speaker 1>get worse than they are right now. Bottom line, it's

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<v Speaker 1>going to get worse. We have the for amid the

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<v Speaker 1>assessment that COVID nineteen can be charactorized as a pandemic.

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<v Speaker 1>We have already lost twenty four twenty four of our citizens.

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<v Speaker 1>We're heading towards an epidemic in the United States, and

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<v Speaker 1>the question is what the scope is going to be.

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<v Speaker 1>Tom Hanks and his wife, the actress Rita Wilson, have

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<v Speaker 1>announced that they have both tested positive for coronavirus. To

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<v Speaker 1>keep new cases from entering our shores, we will be

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<v Speaker 1>suspending all travel from Europe to the United States for

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<v Speaker 1>the next thirty days. That was a year ago today,

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<v Speaker 1>and we have no idea how much more to there

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<v Speaker 1>was to come. And um one of the things I'd

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<v Speaker 1>like to ask Tim the lawyer about is the last

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<v Speaker 1>year in terms of personal freedom and private property, since

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<v Speaker 1>he's an expert in that, and we'll get to that. Indeed,

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<v Speaker 1>Tim the lawyer, Sandy First, the vice president for Litigation

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<v Speaker 1>at the Goldwater Institute's were also written a number of

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<v Speaker 1>interesting books, including The Ascent of Jacob Bronowski, Frederick Douglas

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<v Speaker 1>Self Made Man, corner Stone of Liberty, Property Rights in

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<v Speaker 1>twenty first America and Century America, and one of my favorites,

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<v Speaker 1>The Permission Society, which was inspired by this dopey little

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<v Speaker 1>radio show Tim Sander for how are you, Tim? I'm great?

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<v Speaker 1>How are you guys? Done? Terrific? I noticed from your

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<v Speaker 1>Twitter picture that you changed it. I think you're planning

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<v Speaker 1>on running for office. It has the look of a

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<v Speaker 1>guy who's running for office. It really does have a

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<v Speaker 1>sort of I'm I'm running for governor and kind of

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<v Speaker 1>vibe to it. Yes, really intentional, but I just, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I thought I should update it because my my previous

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<v Speaker 1>picture didn't have my COVID long hair. She still have

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<v Speaker 1>the beard, do you? I do, and I have long hair,

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<v Speaker 1>hair hair down past my ears. At this point, I

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<v Speaker 1>really need to take care of this. But you're standing

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<v Speaker 1>in You're standing an electron in a suit and tie

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<v Speaker 1>and like pointing in your mouth or open like you're

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<v Speaker 1>really telling a crowd what's going on. So, yeah, Tim Lawyer,

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<v Speaker 1>clearly running for office. Look, my wife has put her

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<v Speaker 1>foot down about this that if I ever run for office,

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<v Speaker 1>she will leave me, So that that has a wise woman.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's we are anxious to talk about just the liberty,

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<v Speaker 1>the history of the last year in terms of liberty

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<v Speaker 1>and how quickly we've given it up. But we want

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<v Speaker 1>to pay heed to what you've been working on specifically

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<v Speaker 1>these days, which is civil asset forfeiture, something a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of people don't even understand exists. Oh yeah, and and

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<v Speaker 1>I don't blame them because it's so contrary to the

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<v Speaker 1>basic principles American liberty that it's it really stuns people

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<v Speaker 1>to learn that what goes on. And this is a

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<v Speaker 1>legal principle that says that the government can take away

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<v Speaker 1>your property on the theory that the property was involved

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<v Speaker 1>in a crime and then just keep it without filing

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<v Speaker 1>a charges against you and certainly without convicting you of

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<v Speaker 1>any crime. They just come in and they take the property.

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<v Speaker 1>And what happens then when they take it is that

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<v Speaker 1>you get a little document that says, hey, we have

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<v Speaker 1>your property. If you want it back, you have to

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<v Speaker 1>come come down to the to the police station. You

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<v Speaker 1>have to sue us, basically, and of course when you

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<v Speaker 1>do sue them, what that means is since it's technically

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<v Speaker 1>considered a civil proceeding and since you are technically the plaintiff,

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<v Speaker 1>the Fifth Amendment doesn't apply, which means that you can

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<v Speaker 1>be forced to testify against yourself and you're required to

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<v Speaker 1>prove your innocence instead of the government having to prove

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<v Speaker 1>your guilt. So what happens is basically the government, the

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<v Speaker 1>police officers can target you, take your property, and then

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<v Speaker 1>force you to come and pay to get it back.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll give me an example, like, um, I get pulled

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<v Speaker 1>over at night and they suspect me of drunk driving?

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<v Speaker 1>Could they just take my carsly, and absolutely they could.

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<v Speaker 1>Or if you just have a lot of cash in

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<v Speaker 1>the car, or if they just think that you have

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<v Speaker 1>you know, might be engaged in some sort of drug traffing,

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<v Speaker 1>trafficking or something like that, or even a relative of yours.

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<v Speaker 1>So just this week we've got a good result in

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<v Speaker 1>a case in Massachusetts where the police officers seized our

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<v Speaker 1>client's car because her son was engaged in drug crimes allegedly,

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<v Speaker 1>and the police officers decided that she was involved somehow

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<v Speaker 1>or the car was involved in somehow, and and took

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<v Speaker 1>it and put it in an impound lot and left

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<v Speaker 1>it there for five years before even serving her with

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<v Speaker 1>the paperwork. Wow, they didn't even let they didn't even say, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>by the way, you can get your property back until

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<v Speaker 1>this year when they took the property. In ten they

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<v Speaker 1>took this car, and she was They never accused her

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<v Speaker 1>of being involved in a crime. They've never filed charges

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<v Speaker 1>against her, let alone convicted her in court or anything

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<v Speaker 1>like this. They simply kept it. And guess what, when

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<v Speaker 1>we showed up and said, hey, we're a bunch of

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<v Speaker 1>lawyers and we're prepared to take this to court, they

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<v Speaker 1>backed down and gave her back a car. And that

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<v Speaker 1>happens time and time and time again. The government takes

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<v Speaker 1>this property on the on the in the assumption that

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<v Speaker 1>you are too afraid to get it back. Now, there's

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<v Speaker 1>no interest in the police, or there's no benefit to

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<v Speaker 1>the police having a lot full of impounded cars. What's

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<v Speaker 1>the incentive? Why is this happening a lot of the time.

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<v Speaker 1>They sell it at those police auctions and things. They're

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<v Speaker 1>also allowed to keep the cash they cash is very

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<v Speaker 1>often still seized by the government. And remember this idea

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<v Speaker 1>is that it's supposed to be this is supposed to

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<v Speaker 1>be a tool against big level drug kingpins, right like

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<v Speaker 1>you see like back in the olden days when you

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<v Speaker 1>saw it on Miami Vice, it was always they're gonna

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<v Speaker 1>take some some big drug kingpins luxury yacht or something.

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<v Speaker 1>But the reality is most seizures through civil asset forfeiture

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<v Speaker 1>are very small, less than five hundred dollars in most cases,

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<v Speaker 1>and most cases people are not even charged with a crime.

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<v Speaker 1>And this amounts to an enormous amount of money flowing

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<v Speaker 1>into police departments since they're allowed to keep this money.

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<v Speaker 1>In Massachusetts alone, in the past twenty years, it's been

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<v Speaker 1>three hundred and twenty seven million dollars that has been

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<v Speaker 1>seized through asset forfeiture that goes directly into the accounts

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<v Speaker 1>of law enforcement, on top of the tax dollars that

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<v Speaker 1>they already get. So there's reason to believe that some

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<v Speaker 1>of it is just a profit deal. Absolutely, we call

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<v Speaker 1>it policing for profit because the these forfeitures pay for themselves,

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<v Speaker 1>and the prosecutor is very often like to use that

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<v Speaker 1>as an advertisement. They say, hey, this is a great

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<v Speaker 1>program because it pays for itself. The reason why it

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<v Speaker 1>pays for itself is because the government isn't bothering to

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<v Speaker 1>have a lawyer actually show up in a trial court

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<v Speaker 1>and prove the defendant guilty. They're just taking the cash

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<v Speaker 1>and pocketing it. And the law enforcement in this country

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<v Speaker 1>has become truly addicted to this influx of cash, to

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<v Speaker 1>the point that many law enforcement agencies don't even bother

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<v Speaker 1>prioritizing crimes such as rape and murder, because those have

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<v Speaker 1>no profit making aspect properly. They prioritize going after property

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<v Speaker 1>from people that they say, in some vague terms, might

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<v Speaker 1>somehow be involved in a crime. We had a case

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<v Speaker 1>in Tucson just a couple of months ago where the

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<v Speaker 1>police seized our clients jeep because his girlfriend drove the

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<v Speaker 1>jeep to a seven eleven in order to arrange for

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<v Speaker 1>the sale of an ounce of marijuana. And they seize

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<v Speaker 1>his brand new jeep. And when he said, I want

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<v Speaker 1>my jeep back, they said, well, if you give us

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen hundred dollars, We'll give you back the jeep. Where

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<v Speaker 1>did the nineteen dollars come from? They just came up

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<v Speaker 1>with that amount. They just said, give us a little back,

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<v Speaker 1>she'sh and will return the jeep to you. Then when

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<v Speaker 1>we wrote them a letter and said, hey, by the way,

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<v Speaker 1>now the guys hired a lawyer here at the Goldwater Institute,

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<v Speaker 1>they back down. No, no, you can, you can, you

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<v Speaker 1>can have your j back. You know, that's just the

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<v Speaker 1>mom that's the mob. Well, how in the name of

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<v Speaker 1>James Madison does this square with the Fourth Amendment? It

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<v Speaker 1>absolutely does not. But what happened was this It's actually

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<v Speaker 1>a very very old legal principle. In fact, it was

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<v Speaker 1>around in the Founding Father's day, and it was one

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<v Speaker 1>of the reasons for the American Revolution. What happened was

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<v Speaker 1>the British government expanded the authority of what was called

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<v Speaker 1>admiralty courts, which were supposed to be governing crimes at sea,

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<v Speaker 1>and the British government expanded their authority to allow British

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<v Speaker 1>admiralty courts to hear cases that arose on land. And

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<v Speaker 1>what they would do is they would do just this.

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<v Speaker 1>They would seize people's property and forced them to come

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<v Speaker 1>in and prove themselves innocent of a crime. And the

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<v Speaker 1>judge got to keep a cut of it if he

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<v Speaker 1>ruled against the guy. So that's why when you reach

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<v Speaker 1>the separation of Independence, the Declaration of Independence refers to this.

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<v Speaker 1>It says, it says that the King has subjected us

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<v Speaker 1>to a system of laws that is alien to our constitution.

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<v Speaker 1>They're talking about these admiralty courts which were engaged in

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<v Speaker 1>asset forfeit your two hundred years ago, and yet we

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<v Speaker 1>allow it to go on in the United States today

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<v Speaker 1>because of of course, the drug War, the most famous

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<v Speaker 1>of those cases. Of course, you are versus r which

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<v Speaker 1>was decided in favor of our Tim, the lawyer Sander

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<v Speaker 1>for Tim Sanders, the VP for Litigation at the Goldwater Institute. Jackie.

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<v Speaker 1>Ready to move on to the last year and the

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<v Speaker 1>incursions in the verse. The President's given us address to

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<v Speaker 1>the nation tonight, because it's one year ago today that

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<v Speaker 1>the w h O officially declared to the pandemic. You

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<v Speaker 1>can pick a variety of days of the China Love

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<v Speaker 1>and Liars beginning. But as a guy has written books

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<v Speaker 1>and spoken and thought a lot about private property and

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<v Speaker 1>personal freedom. What's your overarching feel about this last year.

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<v Speaker 1>Is this shocking to you that these things happened, not surprising? What? Well,

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<v Speaker 1>I would say that my overall feeling is that it's

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<v Speaker 1>very complicated. It's a lot more complicated than people on

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<v Speaker 1>either side really want to admit, because we're not talking

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<v Speaker 1>about something that government has absolutely no business doing. Like

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<v Speaker 1>when we're talking about something like eminent domainia, everment takes

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<v Speaker 1>away your house and to build a shopping center there,

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<v Speaker 1>government has absolutely no business doing that whatsoever. But when

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<v Speaker 1>you're talking about a pandemic and stuff, obviously government does

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<v Speaker 1>have a legitimate role in protecting people against infectious diseases

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<v Speaker 1>and things of that sort. So it's it's harder to

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<v Speaker 1>draw clear lines. But what you find is a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of the time the government says, oh, well, we've got

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<v Speaker 1>this great idea, so we're gonna do this tray it

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<v Speaker 1>truly crazy, wild thing based on what was originally a

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<v Speaker 1>good idea. And so you find things like in Pennsylvania,

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<v Speaker 1>for example, and the governor says, well, we're gonna shut

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<v Speaker 1>down all these businesses, but by the way, you can

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<v Speaker 1>come to me and ask for an exemption, and I

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<v Speaker 1>will grant exemptions based on purely arbitrary criteria. And I'm

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<v Speaker 1>not even gonna tell you what my reasoning is as

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<v Speaker 1>to whether or not people get exemptions. And by the way,

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<v Speaker 1>my friends get exemptions, but other people don't, and that

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<v Speaker 1>sort of thing, and that's a real problem. And so

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<v Speaker 1>there have been lawsuits all across the country over stuff

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<v Speaker 1>like that, but those really do violate the Constitution. So

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<v Speaker 1>it's hard to answer the question in the abstract. One thing,

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<v Speaker 1>although I would say that is a real concern, is

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<v Speaker 1>you mentioned my book The Permission Society, which was indeed

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<v Speaker 1>inspired by conversations on your show. Especially Joe likes to say,

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<v Speaker 1>whenever you hear the word permit, remember that a permit,

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<v Speaker 1>that's actually a verb. The government will permit you to

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<v Speaker 1>do something. And the this we are sliding very quickly

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<v Speaker 1>from a country where you are free to act unless

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<v Speaker 1>you're harming somebody else into a permission society where you

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<v Speaker 1>are not allowed to act unless the government allows you to.

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<v Speaker 1>And when that happens, then you have to satisfy the government.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes they mother may I before you do whatever the

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<v Speaker 1>thing might be. And I would say California, for example,

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<v Speaker 1>has has basically become the permission society, where there's virtually

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<v Speaker 1>nothing you can do without some kind of government approval,

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<v Speaker 1>which depends on the largely arbitrary decisions of bureaucrats at

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<v Speaker 1>the city, county, state level, and so forth. Well, speaking

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<v Speaker 1>of Unicornia, what really troubled me about the COVID response

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<v Speaker 1>was that there are specific statutes that describe what an

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<v Speaker 1>emergency is and when the government can invoke emergency powers,

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<v Speaker 1>and there has been nothing close to an emergency for

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<v Speaker 1>many months now in most California counties, and yet apparently

0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:21.079
<v Speaker 1>the mechanisms for correcting that are too slow or something.

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<v Speaker 1>How is Here's here's the thing when it comes to government.

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<v Speaker 1>So government wants to protect people's safety. Right, So let's

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<v Speaker 1>say the governments and this is Let's say they're all

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<v Speaker 1>being very conscientious about this. Let's put aside any question

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<v Speaker 1>about bribery, self dealing, anything like that. Let's say these

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<v Speaker 1>people are all angels and they want to protect people's safety. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>the safest thing to do in almost every circumstance is

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<v Speaker 1>nothing whatsoever, right, Because if there there's always a risk

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<v Speaker 1>to doing anything, we call it a type to error,

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<v Speaker 1>as opposed to a type one error, which is when

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<v Speaker 1>you go and do something and it really is risky

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<v Speaker 1>and you don't know what you're doing. Right. A type

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<v Speaker 1>two error is when you decide, well, gosh, better safe

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<v Speaker 1>than sorry, and the there there's an old in fact.

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<v Speaker 1>Thomas a Quaintance, the old philosopher used to say, if

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<v Speaker 1>if the captain's number one priority was safety, he would

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<v Speaker 1>never leave port. And that's what happens when you prioritize

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<v Speaker 1>safety over other concerns, is you actually end up hurting

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<v Speaker 1>people more. For example, by withholding medical treatments that could

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<v Speaker 1>save lives. You say, well, I don't know if I'm

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<v Speaker 1>going to allow people to sell this medicine because it

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<v Speaker 1>might hurt people. Well, yeah, but it might cure more people.

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<v Speaker 1>But see, the government won't get punished if it refuses permission.

0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:34.720
<v Speaker 1>It'll get permission if it allows if it'll get punished

0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:37.000
<v Speaker 1>if it allows permission and that thing ends up hurting people,

0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:39.800
<v Speaker 1>then you then it's a scandal. Right, Well, how dare

0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:42.080
<v Speaker 1>you allow the sale of this dangerous medicine? And that

0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:44.880
<v Speaker 1>becomes a big deal. But if the government refuses to

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<v Speaker 1>allow a good medicine to go out, well, nobody finds

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<v Speaker 1>out about it, right, It never occurs to anybody because

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<v Speaker 1>it just never went on sale. So what the government

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<v Speaker 1>does is it's overly conservative. And I don't mean that

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<v Speaker 1>politically conservative. I mean it's temperamentally. It's overly conservatives. It's

0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:02.800
<v Speaker 1>afraid to take risks, and there's no incentive to do so.

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<v Speaker 1>Who wants to be the elected official in California who

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<v Speaker 1>stands up and says, I don't know, I think it's

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<v Speaker 1>time for us to waive this state of emergency and

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<v Speaker 1>then is wrong? Right? They're terrified of that, and so

0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:15.720
<v Speaker 1>there's every incentive for keeping the state of emergency in place,

0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:19.080
<v Speaker 1>and there's really no mechanism for eliminating in. What California

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<v Speaker 1>and other states need to do is to have a

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<v Speaker 1>law that says a state of emergency automatically terminates unless

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<v Speaker 1>it is renewed by the state legislature. That's where it is,

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<v Speaker 1>and California doesn't have that. Tim Sanderford, Vice Presidents, the

0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:34.880
<v Speaker 1>litigation for the Goldwater Institute. As always, we're sitting here

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<v Speaker 1>wishing we can talk to you all day, but we

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<v Speaker 1>really need to take a break. Tim, really interesting stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>Keep fighting a good fight, thanks guys. Yeah, Kansas is

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<v Speaker 1>doing that and every state needs to do that. Your

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<v Speaker 1>your emergency powers last X number of days and then

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<v Speaker 1>it has to be renewed by the legislature or perfect.

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<v Speaker 1>That'd be a good outcome of this whole thing. More

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<v Speaker 1>on the way