1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: M hm okay. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, 2 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all 3 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: the small decisions we can make to become the best 4 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 1: possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr joy hard 5 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more 6 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: information or to find a therapist in your area, visit 7 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While 8 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 1: I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, 9 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: it is not meant to be a substitute for a 10 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks 11 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: so much for joining me for session to forty nine 12 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: of the Therapy for Girls Podcast. We'll get rut into 13 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: the episode after a word from our sponsors. There are 14 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: multiple layers to unpack when discussing Black women and girls 15 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: who died by suicide. Historically, much of the research conducted 16 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 1: around suicide has been synonymous with whiteness. Although black women 17 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: harming themselves is not a new phenomenon, As death by 18 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 1: suicide has continued to rise in populations of Black women 19 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 1: and girls in recent years, research and suicide prevention and 20 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: intervention amongst our community remains necessary. This week, I'm joined 21 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: by Dr Jeannette Wade and Dr Michelle Vance, assistant professors 22 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: at North Carolina A and T State University. The duo 23 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: centers their work on suicide research and intervention among Black 24 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: women and girls. Our conversation explores psychological stressors like sexism 25 00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: and racism that can lead to suicidal ideation, how research 26 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: efforts conducted by and four black women can save lives, 27 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 1: and the importance of humanizing black women with mental health issues. 28 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please 29 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: share with us on social media using the hashtag TBG 30 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,079 Speaker 1: in Session or join us over in the Sister Circle 31 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 1: To talk more in depth about the episode. You can 32 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: join us at community dot therapy for Black Girls dot com. 33 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. So I'm really excited to begin with 34 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: both of you, and again, thank you all so much 35 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 1: for joining us, and so I would love it if 36 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: we could just start by each of you telling me 37 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,239 Speaker 1: a little bit about how did you come to this work, 38 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: and can you tell us a little bit about your 39 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: research if you'd start. Dr Vans, So, when I was 40 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: in my doct program at the university and Central Florida. 41 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 1: I worked on a national suicide provincion initiative and it 42 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 1: was called the Florida Links so Florida Linking Individuals Needing 43 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: care and and so I was basically the care coordinator 44 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: liaison between the mental health agencies and the university researchers. 45 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: And basically what this was was a care coordination model 46 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 1: for youth who were hospitalized in an inpatient psychiatric facility, 47 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 1: but then after discharge, it was a program that worked 48 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: with them for ninety days. So this was the focus 49 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: of my dissertation. However, I chose to use only the 50 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 1: black and brown girls who were discharged from the psychiatric 51 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 1: in patient facilities for the care coordination model because I 52 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: specifically wanted to look at if there were decreases in 53 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: suicidality as well as decreases in depression across the ninety days, 54 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: and also were they able to stay engaged in services. 55 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: And so that's how my research really in suicidality started. 56 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: I've always done a lot of work around mental health 57 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: and mental health disparities, but it really was my dissertation 58 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: in my doc program that got me involved on more 59 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: of a practice and research level. Thank you for that 60 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: and what about you. Well, I'm a sociologist. I'm trained 61 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: in gender and medical sociology. So when I was doing 62 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 1: my doctoral research, I looked at Black men and women 63 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 1: and white men and women during emerging adulthood, which is 64 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: eighteen to twenty five, and I was interested in the 65 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: ways that gender contributes to engagement and health risk behaviors. 66 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: So I looked at fast food consumption, sexual risk behaviors, 67 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 1: and binge drinking. And through my research, I noticed what 68 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: the most unexpected finding was Black women. Actually, when we 69 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 1: measured gender in the traditional white way using the BEM 70 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: Sex Role Inventory, black women come out as the most masculine. 71 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: And we already knew that masculinity was tied to health 72 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: risk behavior, but we hadn't focused on Black women because 73 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: we always associated masculinity with manhood. So I sort of 74 00:04:57,480 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: left all the other groups behind and just focused on 75 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 1: Black women because I was very fascinated by the idea 76 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: of black women being masculine. And I myself, I'm a 77 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: black woman, and I'm a wife, I'm a mom, but 78 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,840 Speaker 1: I'm also ex military. I also have a PhD. So 79 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: I understand how masculinity could be conflated with the way 80 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 1: Black women do gender, which we call strong Black woman. 81 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,799 Speaker 1: So I've really been getting into this strong black woman 82 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 1: idea and how it contributes to health risk because, as 83 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: we know, wearing so many hats, doing it all, being 84 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: feminine and masculine, being leaders all of that, it's stressful, 85 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: and stress requires coping, and unfortunately a lot of us 86 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: have unhealthy coping behaviors. So actually, a mutual colleague of ours, 87 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,840 Speaker 1: Dr Sharon Parker, brought Dr Vans to me one day 88 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: and she said, Hey, she's the new kid in town 89 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 1: at our university, and I think you too should collaborate. 90 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 1: She's interested in suicide risk among black girls and women, 91 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: and you do such an excellent job contextualizing these health 92 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: risk behaviors. I think you too should collaborate. So she 93 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 1: has the social work background, she understands the clinical side, 94 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 1: and by me being a sociologist, I can help understand 95 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: how aspects of black womanhood might put you at risk. 96 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: God it yeah, So, I you know, read the piece 97 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: that you both were quoted in for a time a 98 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, and do what. I wanted to 99 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: sit down with you all because I think that there 100 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,679 Speaker 1: are just so many layers to unpack we think about 101 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,479 Speaker 1: and talk about suicide as it relates to Black women 102 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: and girls, and so I would love to hear a 103 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 1: little bit more about maybe what your research has found 104 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: and what other research has found related to the risk 105 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: in particular for Black women and girls as it relates 106 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: to suicide. So I'll definitely start with that one of 107 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: the things that we're really looking at and specifically in 108 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 1: prevention as well as intervention. Which is why I chose 109 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: to focus on the black and brown girls, because most 110 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: of research has been synonymous with whiteness, right, and a 111 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: lot of the research we've looked at has been researched 112 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 1: with non persons of color, right, and non black community specifically, 113 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: And so what we're noticing is that we're seeing these 114 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: increase in deaths, we're seeing these increased in suicide related behaviors. 115 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: We know that black people did not just start harming 116 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: themselves or dying by suicide, but we've never specifically looked 117 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: at how young Black girls and young black women are 118 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: experiencing the risk factors that already studied in the literature. 119 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: Like if we talk about mental health symptoms, and we 120 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: specifically talk about anxiety and depression, then we can go 121 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: back and look at literature about what are things in 122 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: our lives that cause anxiety and depression, but it could 123 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: externalize and be internalized very differently based on our identities, 124 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: and we all identify differently. So if we're talking specifically 125 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: about black girls and black women, this is why I 126 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: think the work that Dr Wade and I is so important, 127 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: because we want to look at the intersecting identities, but 128 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: also how do those psycho social aspects of those intersecting 129 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: identities put Black girls and black women at risk? And 130 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: so I know that between two thousand and two thousand 131 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: and seventeen, I believe there was a hundred and eighty 132 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: two increase in suicide deaths for Black girls and Black 133 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,239 Speaker 1: young women ages ten to twenty four. So I think 134 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:34,319 Speaker 1: that tells us developmentally there are some things we need 135 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:36,839 Speaker 1: to look at where I think the health behaviors come 136 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 1: in as well. I also think that we need to 137 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: look at these specific risk factors and then how do 138 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 1: those protective factors maybe help or do not help. Based 139 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: on the fact that we're living in a society that 140 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: still is saying, oh my goodness, like these black women 141 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: in public image are dying by suicide. Why, Well, first 142 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:01,959 Speaker 1: you need to idea and ify that they're human, right, 143 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: and that we do see that there's things that we're 144 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:08,199 Speaker 1: not looking at because we've not been trained to look 145 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: through any other lens. But whiteness, what would you add 146 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: their dr weit yes, And interestingly, like Dr Van said, historically, 147 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: we didn't think about Black women when we thought about suicide. 148 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: So there are actually three paradoxes that exist in the literature. 149 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,079 Speaker 1: One is the gender paradox, which says men are more 150 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: likely to commit suicide. One is the race paradox, which 151 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: says whites are more likely to die by suicide. And 152 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: then there's even an African American woman's paradox that talks 153 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: about the way we use our spirituality and our sisterhoods 154 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: to protect ourselves from dying by suicide. So really, this 155 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: recent shift in the trend is not studied well yet, 156 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 1: so I think there's gonna be a lot of new 157 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: literature emerging. But up to now, a lot of studies 158 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: of Black women and suicide actually looked at the protective 159 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 1: factors because it never made sense that this group that 160 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: faces race and gender oppression has low rates. So I 161 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: think that's what's been more fascinating historically, So now we 162 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: are shifting to sort of look at what's causing this 163 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 1: new spike. Mm hmmm. You know, that's a really interesting 164 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,959 Speaker 1: point you bring up, Dr Wade. I mean, because historically 165 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 1: it's a misconception, but I think that there was some 166 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: truth to it that black women and black girls did 167 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: have the lower numbers in terms of suicide historically. Right, 168 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: But now, as you mentioned, Dr Vance, there's doing this 169 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: huge increase, and so we know that stressors have increased, 170 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: racism has not stopped at all. But are there other 171 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: things that you can point to that has led to 172 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: this increase that we've seen that is different from what 173 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: we've seen historically. Well, this is just an interesting sort 174 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: of tidbit. I just watched a special where they had 175 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 1: men having a dialogue about suicide. One man talked about 176 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,599 Speaker 1: suicide rates are the clearest indication that men have it 177 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 1: harder in society, because if they didn't, why would they 178 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: a diet such high rates when it comes to suicide. 179 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: And I just thought about how just counterintuitive that is, 180 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: and how the suicide rates really spoke to how men 181 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 1: are ill prepared to face adversity and black women are 182 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: so prepared to face adversity. We're basically told as children 183 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 1: to expect adversity all the time and move on and 184 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:25,959 Speaker 1: be strong and go to church and get through it. 185 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: He talked about men have such high rates because they 186 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: hit households, they're financially in charge of society. If anything 187 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 1: goes wrong, it falls on men. And that is sort 188 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 1: of the shift with Black women because we've always faced racism, sexism, 189 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: We've always had to work hard. We didn't have that 190 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: same feminist movement where we were fighting for that right 191 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 1: to work. We've been working since slavery. However, the power 192 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: is what's new. And when you look at women in 193 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: these high power situations that are almost similar to the 194 00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: white men who are more likely to die by suicide, 195 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: they were in powerful situations. So I think although we 196 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 1: prepare black girls for some level of adversity all the time, 197 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: being powerful, highly educated, highly successful in spaces comes with 198 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: a huge layer of gendered racism that can really take 199 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: over you. I'm sure you can relate as a highly 200 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:27,079 Speaker 1: educated black women, you find yourself succumbing to microaggressions constantly. 201 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: And the research shows black people with more education and 202 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: income and better careers actually face more microaggressions when it 203 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: comes to racism than black people who live in predominantly 204 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: black communities, who face more structural racism on a daily 205 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 1: So I think no black person can educate or income 206 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: their self out of being black in America. There's gonna 207 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: be racism, there's gonna be sexism, and then when you 208 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: add that layer of power, I think that's what might 209 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 1: be a big piece of this new trend. And Dr 210 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 1: Van tonight we created a model which is theoretical, but 211 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: we're actually in the process of testing it, so soon 212 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: be on the lookout for our next article where we 213 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: actually test the model and plug in all these psychosocial 214 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,680 Speaker 1: factors to see how they relate to suicide risk. Thank 215 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: you for that. We will definitely be on the lookout 216 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: for that. Did you have something to add their Dorman. 217 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: I was just really thinking also because Dr Wade, you 218 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,199 Speaker 1: had mentioned if we think about black women in all settings, 219 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: and I think that's the important part, is that if 220 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: we're now paying attention to psychological stressors as a result 221 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: of experiencing sexism and racism, and we need to look 222 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: across settings. I know I've had a lot of really 223 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: great conversations with black women and their experiences in medical settings. 224 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,319 Speaker 1: Like most people wouldn't think when you have privilege, right, 225 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,559 Speaker 1: you wouldn't think that you're going into a doctor, you're 226 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 1: going somewhere where someone is supposed to be treating you 227 00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:00,319 Speaker 1: or helping you with things. But you're experiencing those micros 228 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: in every setting of your life. And I think that 229 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: we're getting to a point that people are, and specifically 230 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: Black women, are being more vocal about the experiences that 231 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: they're having in a lot of different domains. And so 232 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 1: I think that one of the things that I hope 233 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: that we're going to also do with our model is 234 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: really get to and even hopefully create a scale Dr 235 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: Wade that catches how women feel and what they're experiencing 236 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: and what they're going through in all of these different settings, 237 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: because it gets me to thinking about why would someone 238 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: say that they may be experiencing levels of depression or 239 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: anxiety or psychological stress that is taking them out of 240 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: their normal character, Like when is it that we can't 241 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: cope with the things that we're normally coping with. So 242 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: I really do believe that there's some socio historical stuff 243 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: that is just present today that we're just not tapping 244 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: into in a lot of ways from a research perspective. 245 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: And if research guides what we do in practice, and 246 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: our research has not looked at specifically the things that 247 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: we need to look at for racialized in minorityized communities, 248 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: then we're missing the mark totally. And another elephant in 249 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: the room. I just want to throw in, as social media, 250 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: what's difference today versus yesterday? We know that black women 251 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: that are in that same category, the very successful, educated work, 252 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 1: These are the people on social media all the time. 253 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: It's well established that for women, social media has a 254 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: direct tide of self esteem and that we come to 255 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: compare ourselves to other people constantly. But then as a 256 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: black woman, you have that other piece, which is these 257 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: viral videos of police brutality, these Karen videos, just you 258 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: name it. There's always a video circulating that is going 259 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: to have a negative effect on your mental health. It's like, 260 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: do I want to be a perfect woman or how 261 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: do I navigate my blackness and this racist society. I'm 262 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: so angry. So I think we can't leave out social 263 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: media either when we talk about what's different and why 264 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: would it be uniquely hard for a black woman because 265 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: social media has racism and sexism on a plate for you. 266 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: You know, as you all were talking, I think somebody 267 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: earlier mentioned there are some traditional risk factors that we 268 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: are trained in in terms of being clinicians, right and 269 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: as researchers to kind of look for in terms of 270 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: like risk factors for suicide. So if you've had a 271 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 1: friend or family member who's died by suicide, if you 272 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: have access to the weapons, that can increase the risk. 273 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: But you mentioned that some of these risk factors might 274 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: not actually look the same for like black girls and women. 275 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about maybe some of 276 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: the risk factors that may be an indicator that might 277 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: lead to suicidal idegation or execution that we may want 278 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: to be on the lookout for. That's a great question. 279 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 1: I know one of the things that I was thinking about. 280 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: I believe Dr Way we were talking talking about this 281 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: as well. If black women or black girls are experiencing 282 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: puberty at a younger age, let's just say that's what 283 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 1: the research says. I don't do that research, but that's 284 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,640 Speaker 1: what the research says. If black and brown girls are 285 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: reaching puberty at an earlier age, then there's been some 286 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: connection or talk about how they may be even engaging 287 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:28,400 Speaker 1: more in sexualized interactions or relationships at a younger age. 288 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 1: And if that then happens, right, then is that increasing 289 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: any risks of interpersonal violence any more risks of sexual abuse? 290 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: How are those things I think even playing out. That's 291 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: just one thing that I'm thinking about. The other thing 292 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 1: I think comes to just in general self care. And 293 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:54,920 Speaker 1: so I know Dr Wade talked a little bit about 294 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 1: the strong Black Woman script right in the Superwoman's Schema. 295 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: I would like to talk a little bit more about 296 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:02,880 Speaker 1: that because some of the work that I've been doing 297 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: is actually talking to parents about how do we start 298 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:11,400 Speaker 1: having these conversations and shifting narratives with our children around 299 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 1: expressing feelings, identifying when it's okay to be vulnerable, showing 300 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:18,879 Speaker 1: that you may be sad, that you don't have to 301 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: always prioritize others care over yours. And I think there's 302 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: a lot of generational stuff as well there. So I 303 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 1: would like to have a little bit of discussion around 304 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: that because I think that there may be some risk 305 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: factors there that we need to tap into. Yeah, so 306 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: just to be clear for everyone that's not familiar with 307 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,439 Speaker 1: a strong Black woman idea. The personality traits that are 308 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,679 Speaker 1: associated with being a strong Black woman are you have 309 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 1: to sort of give off this vibe that you're strong 310 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 1: by nature. It's not something you're trying to be. You 311 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: just can't help it. That you hide emotions, that you're resilient, 312 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: your caregiver, you always have solid mental health, your religious 313 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,919 Speaker 1: you love yourself, and you managed to be beautiful and 314 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: feminine all at the same time. So this is a 315 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: unique risk factor for black women's understudied in the context 316 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,120 Speaker 1: of suicide risk. So that's the direction we're headed in. 317 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:15,360 Speaker 1: But Sheryl gives Combay out of U n C created 318 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: the Superwoman's schema, which is a way for clinicians to 319 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 1: really measure how much Black women subscribe to that strong 320 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: Black woman's script. But with the schema, she may strength 321 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: be one piece of it and also measured how we 322 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: suppress emotions and how resistant we are to dependent on 323 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 1: other people. So we are going to include that in 324 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:40,160 Speaker 1: our next study to really see for sure if being 325 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: a strong Black woman does create a risk for suicide, 326 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 1: and then if so, I'm sure other scholars who study 327 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 1: the Superwoman's schema and strong Black women will look into 328 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 1: his relationship with suicide risk as well. And then another 329 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: thing that we're adding is gendered racism. So again going 330 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: back to intersectionality, which is the idea that you can't 331 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 1: just talk about women, you can't just talk about black people, 332 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: because every part of our identity shapes every encounter we have. 333 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:13,199 Speaker 1: So for black women, it's gendered racism in particular. And 334 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 1: in our first article I used the arrest of Sandra 335 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: Bland as an example where if you listen to the 336 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:23,199 Speaker 1: dialogue between her and the officer, you can see a 337 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 1: man who doesn't see a woman, and you can see 338 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: a woman who can't believe this man doesn't see her 339 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: as a woman because he calls her names that are 340 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 1: not associated with womanhood. And then she asks him, does 341 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,160 Speaker 1: that make you feel like a man? Do you feel 342 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: tough talking to a woman that way? But that's at 343 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,360 Speaker 1: the intersection of race and gender, where black women are 344 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 1: not expected to receive courtesy, they don't receive chivalry. They 345 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: are to speak when spoken to, if they get pulled over, 346 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:58,920 Speaker 1: smile and not and do as told. So gendered racism. 347 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 1: We actually have a question and that says, how often 348 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,719 Speaker 1: do you have negative experiences that are shaped by your gender, 349 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: shaped by your race, and so we're going to account 350 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 1: for that as well, because obviously that will be a 351 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 1: unique risk for black women. More from my conversation with 352 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 1: Dr Wade and Dr Vance after the break. So I 353 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: want to go back a little bit, Dr Vance to 354 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 1: your comments around like suicidal risk in adults versus children. 355 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 1: Are there some things that we may be missing in 356 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,160 Speaker 1: terms of children, like or does suicidal risk or suicidal 357 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 1: audiation look different in children than it might in adults. Yeah, 358 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,439 Speaker 1: I would say absolutely that it looks different. And I 359 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: think not only does it look different, I think us 360 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,439 Speaker 1: as the adults don't always even want to see it 361 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 1: or know what to see it, or start to call 362 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: it something different, and then the babies then called it 363 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: something different, right, And I think that's where I was 364 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 1: going to earlier and talking a little bit about shifting 365 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: narratives and generational things. I think that it's really important 366 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: that we're able to help children identify what it is 367 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: that they're feeling and what does that look like? And 368 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: how do we express sadness, how do we express anger? 369 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: And one of the things Dr Joy that we do notice, 370 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: especially for black boys in particular that they're funneled through 371 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: the juvenile justice system, right, and so they're not even 372 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: getting the treatment that they need. So if we're seeing 373 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: young black girls and young black boys exhibiting behaviors that 374 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 1: we're already externalizing that they're violent, right, or they're angry, 375 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: or they don't know how to cope, I think again 376 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,640 Speaker 1: we're missing those things. So we need to look at 377 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 1: our kids and look at how they're exhibiting whatever emotions 378 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 1: that they're having, and be able to kind of talk 379 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: with them and see that and listen to them. But 380 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: I think that there's a lot of responsibility there on adults, 381 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: not only as parents, but us as providers. Because if 382 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: we look at a young lady who has just went 383 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:13,439 Speaker 1: into a classroom, I remember a viral video in a 384 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 1: classroom that she's to start slinging desks and slinging book 385 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:19,920 Speaker 1: bags and screaming and I want to leave and all 386 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: of these things, and I'm hearing even the teachers, who 387 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 1: may not be trained or equipped to deal with those things, 388 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 1: still treat her like it's a behavior issue. There's something 389 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:36,120 Speaker 1: that is preceding those behaviors, And so I don't know 390 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 1: that children know how to necessarily explain or express what 391 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 1: it is. And I don't know sometimes as adults that 392 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: we do a better job with that either. I think 393 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: with adults we've had more time suppressing, masking and hiding 394 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:01,439 Speaker 1: our normal emotions things in our mental health that we 395 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: all have. But kids, I think are learning that at 396 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: a younger age, and so I think, and I don't 397 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: know when, but there's got to be a time where 398 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: we can get in and do some sort of intervention. 399 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: So to kind of go back, I mean to just 400 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,919 Speaker 1: make sure that I'm clearly answering your question. I do 401 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 1: think that it presents differently between childhood and adulthood, but 402 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: I also think that it also has to do with 403 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 1: how we identify it. So can you both talk a 404 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: little bit about what leads someone to being suicidal? Because 405 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: I think that that is still the very difficult piece 406 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: for people who maybe have not struggled with these kinds 407 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: of mental health concerns, is that there's some confusion about 408 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,160 Speaker 1: like how does someone even get to a place where 409 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: they want to in their own life? So can you 410 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: talk about, you know, like, what are some of the 411 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,920 Speaker 1: things that happen that may lead someone to feel suicidal? Well, 412 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: so far, what we know for sure about black women, 413 00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 1: the three greatest risks are using drugs or alcohol, sense 414 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: of hopelessness, and a past with sexual assaulter violence. So 415 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:12,120 Speaker 1: obviously we don't necessarily share those kind of things about ourselves. 416 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: But if there is someone who has a history with 417 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: sexual assaulter violence, and you see a drug or drinking 418 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: habit that has gotten out of control, and you hear 419 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,880 Speaker 1: things like I feel hopeless, then those are red flags 420 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: and that's when you should really be on alert. I 421 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 1: would say, hmm. I think another thing is Dr Wade 422 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: said something that brought me back to because you ask 423 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: the question what would bring somebody to that point? Well, 424 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,440 Speaker 1: first of all, we know that it's generally not one 425 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 1: thing that happens that gets somebody there, and if somebody 426 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 1: is already in crisis, the risk is higher right for 427 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: a suicide attempt, for other suicide related behaviors. And so 428 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,160 Speaker 1: if we think about when intervention is probably best if 429 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: someone feels like, well, what could I have done at 430 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: that moment? Maybe there isn't anything at that moment, But 431 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: I think it goes back to if you know someone 432 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: who has disclosed that they have struggled with depression, that 433 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 1: they have seen a therapist before, that they have at 434 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: one point been on medication, but they continue to walk 435 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:26,120 Speaker 1: through life like they're fine or maybe that they don't 436 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: need that. I know we've read a lot about high 437 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,919 Speaker 1: functioning and the use of that term, and we can 438 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 1: come back to that if that's something you want to 439 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,679 Speaker 1: get into it another time. But I think at that 440 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: point that we have to stay contacted with people and 441 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 1: ensure that they're tapping into the supports that they have, 442 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,120 Speaker 1: because I sometimes think, like with anything else, when we're 443 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,400 Speaker 1: going through something and then we come out of it, 444 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 1: we may forget that we maybe went through that and 445 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,400 Speaker 1: something and we may not know what it is could 446 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 1: trigger us and put us sort of back into that position. 447 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 1: And then if we have to go all the way 448 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: back to the beginning and think about how do we 449 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,400 Speaker 1: get through that the last time, I think that there's 450 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,959 Speaker 1: a window there that's maybe hard for some of us 451 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: to work through, and so I think there has to 452 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 1: also be some things about how we again destigmatize what 453 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,199 Speaker 1: are some of the things that we're feeling, and what 454 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,399 Speaker 1: are some of the things that we're going through, and 455 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,439 Speaker 1: what does that support look like, and what does that 456 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: health look like m Yeah, you know, even to your 457 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,919 Speaker 1: earlier point, Dr Wade around how black women and girls 458 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: are basically groomed and socialized to kind of expect adversity, right, 459 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: And so then we do have you know, maybe a 460 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,199 Speaker 1: sexual assault or something major happens, but it doesn't in 461 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,160 Speaker 1: our minds maybe rise to a crisis level, right, because 462 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: we've always been thinking like, oh, this kind of thing 463 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: happened to my auntie and my grandmother's right, And so 464 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 1: when we tell it to someone then there's the reaction 465 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 1: of oh my gosh, but internally maybe it doesn't trigger 466 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: as something that is a real concern. Yeah, And that 467 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 1: goes back to the strong black woman idea of just 468 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: always looking like you have solid mental health. So we 469 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: do things like eating, sleeping, high risk sexual practices to 470 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 1: cope with all this because it's not like we take 471 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 1: it on and we really are just made of sheet 472 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: metal or something. It hurts, so we do other things 473 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,439 Speaker 1: to deal with that pain. And that's something else you 474 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: can talk to people about. If you see people engaging 475 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:25,719 Speaker 1: in health risk behaviors at unhealthy rates, it's not because 476 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,680 Speaker 1: they're lazy, it's not because something's wrong with them. It's 477 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,399 Speaker 1: not because they don't have motivation. It's generally something is 478 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 1: bothering them. And so that's also a red flag where 479 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: you can make yourself available if you have the space 480 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: in your heart. This is a takeaway I got from 481 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: one of my students. She said, as we become strong 482 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: black women, always ask the person if they have space 483 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: before you start venting, because I know, like my girlfriends 484 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 1: and if we call each other, girl, let me tell 485 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: you about this horrible day I had, and they just 486 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: go right into it. But they're like, no, they might 487 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: not have space for your story. So if you have 488 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: space for some on story, make yourself available if you 489 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 1: see those kind of things like sleeping more than usual, 490 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,959 Speaker 1: eating more than usual, eating less than usual, et cetera. 491 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 1: So I was gonna also ask I think traditionally there 492 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: has been this information around, like the means by which 493 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: people die by suicide. It also feels like he has 494 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: had a bit of a gendered piece, right, So you know, 495 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: historically we've heard about women dying by suicide by maybe 496 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 1: cutting or taking peels, whereas typically we see men do 497 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: more violent I think kinds of things like using firearms 498 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 1: or jumping, right, and it definitely feels like we are 499 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: seeing some differences. There is there anything that you can 500 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: point to or you know, information that will be helpful 501 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: in understanding, like the methods that people choose to die 502 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: by suicide. Yeah, well again, it's kind of at that 503 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 1: intersection of social class and gender. Historically we call it 504 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 1: internalizing and externalizing. What you would say is more violent 505 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: those are externalizing behaviors and then enter realizing behaviors are 506 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: the things that women are more likely to do, like 507 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 1: taking pills. But now I would say, as women are 508 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 1: in these roles that are traditionally masculine, it's just not 509 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: surprising that they're also taking on behaviors that are acceptable 510 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: in these new spaces, like the binge drinking. If you 511 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: talk to women who might be depressed in their full 512 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: time moms or their full time homemakers, they're probably not 513 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: going to the bar and having six shots later. But 514 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 1: then if you talk to professional women who have high 515 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: demand jobs, they might be going to the bar for 516 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: five shots after work right with everyone there. So I 517 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: think as we enter these new spaces, we have to 518 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 1: be cognizant about not changing who we are because it's 519 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 1: easy to adapt to any space you enters. It's a 520 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 1: socialization process. People teach you how to fit in wherever 521 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: you go. But you have to remember, Okay, if this 522 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: is starting to feel so stressful that I have to 523 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,959 Speaker 1: engage in all these terrible behavior is just a cope, 524 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: then there's a larger problem here. And that's when you 525 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: start thinking about therapy, exercise, changing your diet, etcetera. But 526 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: you know, as you say that, Dr Wade, it feels 527 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: like it would be really hard to resist that because 528 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: often there's only one of us there, And so I 529 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: think is also protective for us as black women, is 530 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: having a coheart of us that we can kind of 531 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 1: reality tests with, like Okay, is this is this weird? 532 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: Or you know, but if you're the only one, right, 533 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: like if you are the only black woman on a faculty, 534 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: or you know, you're the only black woman who's a 535 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 1: chair of a department, it may be harder to know 536 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: when you are adapting versus this is what I need 537 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: to do to actually like maybe keep my job and 538 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 1: continue to be successful. Absolutely, and that is a major problem. 539 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 1: Myself is not excluded. I've been the only black women 540 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: lots of places and found myself engaging in masculine behaviors 541 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: or unhealthy behaviors. You're right, it is hard, but I 542 00:31:55,520 --> 00:32:00,479 Speaker 1: think these conversations are important because every major social issue 543 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 1: first had to start with conversations. So I think black women, 544 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: there's gonna be a lot of us and black men 545 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: who are the outlier at work, it's just a fact. 546 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 1: But then we can create a community among those outliers, 547 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: like a space like you created where other black people 548 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: they don't have to be in the same city, can 549 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: come together and share space. So yes, it is definitely 550 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: hard to resist a socialization process, especially if you're new 551 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 1: in your career, because you don't want to look like, oh, 552 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: I don't want to hang out with you guys. You're 553 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 1: like defining stereotypes with every decision you make. You don't 554 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: want too like the angry black woman. You don't want 555 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 1: to look like the standoffish black man. So you joined 556 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: the party. However, you do need something outside of where 557 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,959 Speaker 1: to keep you sane and to be a safe space 558 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: for you to vent and stay on top of your 559 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: self care. So Dr Van, I want to go back 560 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 1: to this term that you introduced, so this idea of 561 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: high functioning depression. So I will admit that I have 562 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 1: some very mixed feelings around this term. One. I'm not 563 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: quite sure where it came from. Like it feels like, 564 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, we were hearing more about like 565 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: high functioning depression, and I think it is a bit 566 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: of a misnomer because we know that depression can look 567 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: lots of different ways. So I'm not quite sure why 568 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 1: there's the need to say that it is high functioning, 569 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 1: because we know that depression can look a lot of 570 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 1: different ways. But it has, you know, risen to popularity, 571 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 1: and definitely recently we've seen more stories around people, you know, 572 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 1: experiencing what they've called high functioning depression. Can you say 573 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 1: a little bit more about that term and how it 574 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 1: may be related to suicidal ideation? Yes, yes, Dr Joy, 575 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: I agree with you. I've been thinking a lot about 576 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 1: this term. Why would people use the word high functioning 577 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: with anything right? And I got to really thinking about that, 578 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: and I was like, well, if I'm thinking about it 579 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 1: in terms of disparities, if I'm thinking about it in 580 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 1: terms of black and brown communities, I first go to 581 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: I'm gonna say something is high functioning when it's a 582 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: behavior that stigmatized. So I have heard people use the 583 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 1: language high functioning alcoholic. I'm a high functioning drug user. 584 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 1: I have high functioning depression. I still believe this way 585 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 1: for us to add an element of something that stigmatized 586 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: to say, but I'm not them, I'm not dealing with that. 587 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 1: I have a control over it, and so the nuances 588 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 1: around because I agree. I think that we as individuals 589 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 1: in our own different identities, experience a lot of different things, 590 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: and depression, as we're talking about right now, may show 591 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,399 Speaker 1: up very differently in me, it may show up very 592 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 1: differently in you, and very differently with dr weight and 593 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 1: guess what in seven days it may then change again 594 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,360 Speaker 1: right in terms of how we are dealing with those symptoms, 595 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:51,240 Speaker 1: and really to think about what a diagnosis of depression means. 596 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,480 Speaker 1: Everybody that's sad is not dealing with an actual mental 597 00:34:55,560 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: health diagnosis of depression. So the high functioning language, to me, 598 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,319 Speaker 1: I think, is a way to just make it look 599 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 1: okay to everybody else, and another way to mask, and 600 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:13,320 Speaker 1: for black women, particularly a survival skill that is killing them. 601 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 1: That high functioning and using that terminology specifically for black 602 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:24,320 Speaker 1: women is a mask a survival skill, and a survival 603 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 1: skill that I believe is what is leading to more 604 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 1: black women dying. If we go back to what we 605 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,880 Speaker 1: were talking about in terms of being strong and not 606 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,800 Speaker 1: showing vulnerability and not showing emotion and it's not okay 607 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: for me to feel a certain way, then I want 608 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:45,839 Speaker 1: to keep up this image that people are creating for 609 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: me and then saying that I'm high functioning again. I 610 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: think if we were to go back and even talk 611 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 1: to people and other disciplines or maybe who study substance 612 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,399 Speaker 1: use and substance misuse like I talked about a few 613 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 1: minutes ago, it doesn't make depression you go away. It 614 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,280 Speaker 1: doesn't make substance you just go away. If we talked 615 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,279 Speaker 1: about it and an eating disorder wound, it doesn't make 616 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 1: the underlying issues and concerns and symptoms go away. I 617 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 1: just want to extend that a little bit, the idea 618 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 1: of functioning really just being an adaptive strategy, because it is. 619 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,760 Speaker 1: And I want us to really really start having conversations 620 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: about our mental health and our behaviors, because it seems 621 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 1: like help or vulnerability are curse words. So instead of 622 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,400 Speaker 1: me being someone who needs help, I'm a functioning alcoholic. 623 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 1: I'm just fine. But it's like, let's really sit in 624 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 1: how ironic that is to be a functioning alcoholic, and 625 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 1: let's really talk about how you have this alcohol desire 626 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,239 Speaker 1: for a reason. So I'm just really excited about the 627 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:56,280 Speaker 1: future because I really think black women were done being strong, 628 00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: you know, and we want to redefine what that means. 629 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 1: Strong means getting helps, Strong means saying I can't do 630 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 1: it all. Strong means saying not today. I was invited, 631 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 1: but today it doesn't feel right, so I'm going to 632 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 1: stay home. So I'm excited about that. But in the meantime, 633 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,839 Speaker 1: I also want us to have these conversations because there's 634 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 1: still so many of us that didn't grow up in 635 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 1: this new era with self care and check ins, and 636 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:21,840 Speaker 1: so if we can continue to reach folks who weren't 637 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 1: brought up like this, maybe we can change some minds 638 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 1: and maybe we can help some folks get the help 639 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 1: they need right right. So I would love to hear 640 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,759 Speaker 1: from you. We've touched on a number of you know, 641 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 1: some of the misconceptions I think as it released to 642 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,319 Speaker 1: suicide in the black community. Are there other things that 643 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:41,839 Speaker 1: you want to talk about that you feel like are 644 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 1: commonly come up that people kind of don't understand or 645 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: maybe you want to add some nuance to as it 646 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:50,760 Speaker 1: relates to this conversation. Yeah, I don't want to miss 647 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,400 Speaker 1: more of the macro level, larger level things. Right, if 648 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 1: we're talking about gendered racism specifically for black women, A 649 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 1: lot of the work that I'm do wing specifically with 650 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 1: my social work students as well as other mental health providers, 651 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 1: is really helping people shift and understand that we need 652 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 1: to work from a very much social justice framework, a 653 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: human rights framework, and an anti racist framework. And I 654 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:25,319 Speaker 1: believe that from a prevention and intervention perspective that we 655 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:31,319 Speaker 1: have to continue to dismantle systems of oppression. There's not 656 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,880 Speaker 1: an end between you're either going to be for human 657 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 1: rights or you're not. You're either going to be anti 658 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 1: racist or you're going to be racists. And so we 659 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 1: have to change that in our professions because if we've 660 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 1: all been trained and educationally trained and practice trained from 661 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 1: that lens of white supremacy work and culture, that we're 662 00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:00,719 Speaker 1: again we're just looking at the individual role and it's 663 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,720 Speaker 1: not the individual's fault. It's not the black woman's fault 664 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 1: that she's being subjected to racism and sexism, it's society's 665 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 1: way that they're dealing with everything that encompasses a black 666 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,359 Speaker 1: woman in this world. And we've got to work on 667 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 1: those levels. And I think that's where everybody has to 668 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 1: get involved. It can't just be the mental health professionals. 669 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,280 Speaker 1: It has to be all of us really taking that shift. 670 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,840 Speaker 1: We don't have a choice anymore. Like it's gonna continue. 671 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 1: And I think the younger generation, like Dr Wade said, 672 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,960 Speaker 1: they're not going to be quiet anymore. Unfortunately, we're still 673 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,840 Speaker 1: losing people, but they're not going to be quiet. And 674 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:41,920 Speaker 1: I think we have to tap into the generation that 675 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,960 Speaker 1: is going to continue to shake the rooms and help 676 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,480 Speaker 1: make some of these changes. And we need more people 677 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,239 Speaker 1: that are standing in platforms like I'm standing in and 678 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,800 Speaker 1: calling out what it is and it's whiteness and we 679 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 1: have to change it. And one other thing to the 680 00:39:56,080 --> 00:40:00,000 Speaker 1: young folks is we need you. We need black women 681 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: in these fields psychology, sociology, social work, community health, public health. 682 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,560 Speaker 1: You belong here. The way we talked about what the 683 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 1: literature knows about black women's suicide and by it the 684 00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 1: answer being not much. That's ridiculous and in all facets 685 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 1: of black womanhood many things are understudied, so without you 686 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,319 Speaker 1: all coming along to join us, it will continue to 687 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 1: be that way. And the best way to figure out 688 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 1: what the problem is solved the problem prevent the problem 689 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 1: is to have well intended, non biased researchers. So we 690 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,919 Speaker 1: need you Black women. You deserve it, You belong here, 691 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:43,279 Speaker 1: and people who are here are happy to mentor you. 692 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,040 Speaker 1: More from my conversation with Dr Wade and Dr Vance 693 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:58,759 Speaker 1: after the break. Now, I do not want to open 694 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:00,839 Speaker 1: up a can of words or up set you, because 695 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 1: I'm sure this conversation is multifaceted. But what is the 696 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:08,839 Speaker 1: funding looking like for people who want to do this work? 697 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,000 Speaker 1: So I know there are huge grants I think that 698 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,640 Speaker 1: come out every year around like suicide prevention. Are you 699 00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,400 Speaker 1: finding that there is money being poured into the area 700 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,719 Speaker 1: of studying suicide and suicide risk for Black women and grow? 701 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:27,399 Speaker 1: To be honest, I thanked the protests for Racial Justice regularly. 702 00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,359 Speaker 1: The n i H, the National Institute of Health, has 703 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:35,520 Speaker 1: sent out many calls for health disparity research. Before I 704 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:39,799 Speaker 1: couldn't get funding. My research was just like way in 705 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:43,760 Speaker 1: the margins. But now that America's eyes are open, this 706 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 1: is the moment They have a lot of money for 707 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:50,680 Speaker 1: health disparities at the person level, at the structural level, 708 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,000 Speaker 1: at the community level. They have money for universities to 709 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:58,319 Speaker 1: partner with clinics, community centers, you name it. So I 710 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:00,799 Speaker 1: don't know how long this is gonna be, but I'm 711 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:04,600 Speaker 1: very grateful for this current moment of social justice and 712 00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:09,400 Speaker 1: you know, the awakening of America and specifically for suicide 713 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:13,600 Speaker 1: and suicide prevention. The Congressional Black Caucus Publisher Report a 714 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,640 Speaker 1: couple of years ago read the alarm about the black 715 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:20,480 Speaker 1: suicide crisis, and one of the calls to actions were 716 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:24,760 Speaker 1: for entities like the federal institutions and I am AGE 717 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,880 Speaker 1: and I AGE to have more grants, but also to 718 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:33,160 Speaker 1: fund more black researchers. And that is something is like 719 00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:35,960 Speaker 1: Dr Wade was saying, in terms of not being funded. 720 00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,719 Speaker 1: I do think that that is a start. I can 721 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:40,840 Speaker 1: tell you that there's a lot of teams that was 722 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:45,720 Speaker 1: recently a request for an application for a suicide grant 723 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,360 Speaker 1: with and I am AGE National Institute of Minority Health 724 00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:51,400 Speaker 1: and a team of us who is led by a 725 00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:55,680 Speaker 1: black woman researcher looking to culturally modify and adapt care 726 00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 1: coordination intervention for black youth and children, and that is 727 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:04,160 Speaker 1: something that we responded to that request, and it's important 728 00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,600 Speaker 1: that we did that also because what Dr Way just said, 729 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:12,640 Speaker 1: it's actually going into the communities and working with the communities, 730 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:16,320 Speaker 1: working with the pastors, working with the families, and also 731 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:22,000 Speaker 1: working with black mental health providers and professionals with the families. 732 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:24,879 Speaker 1: And the other thing Dr Wade and I talked about 733 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,839 Speaker 1: last week was there's not enough black researchers, right, and 734 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:34,440 Speaker 1: so we need well intentioned, we need non problematic allies. 735 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,000 Speaker 1: And I am one of those people. And I continue 736 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:43,120 Speaker 1: to show up in spaces and ask that people start 737 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,920 Speaker 1: seeing things differently. And I'm joining with Dr Wade, I'm 738 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,400 Speaker 1: joining with a lot of the women that our research 739 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,560 Speaker 1: with and the communities because it's not about us going 740 00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,799 Speaker 1: in and thinking that we know everything. We can't be 741 00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:02,120 Speaker 1: saving everybody. Again, that's the perspective. That's how we've been taught, 742 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:05,640 Speaker 1: that's how we've been socialized, and so it's really important 743 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,799 Speaker 1: that we work with communities and people who have the 744 00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:13,120 Speaker 1: live experience of what's going on in everyday lives. Thank 745 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:16,120 Speaker 1: you for that. Dr Wade. You initially or at some 746 00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:20,120 Speaker 1: point talked about how we can intervene to support peers 747 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,480 Speaker 1: and friends and colleagues who we think maybe feeling suicidal. 748 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:27,239 Speaker 1: What other things can we do to support people who 749 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,319 Speaker 1: may be struggling in our lives? You know, you see 750 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:31,560 Speaker 1: a lot of this conversation around checking on your friends, 751 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,000 Speaker 1: checking on your strong friends, and I don't know that 752 00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:37,120 Speaker 1: people always know what that means. So can you share 753 00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:39,319 Speaker 1: with us some tips and strategy for how we might 754 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:41,960 Speaker 1: be able to support people who may be suicidal in 755 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,200 Speaker 1: our lives? You know, I just want to add, Before 756 00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,680 Speaker 1: I was an academic, I was a community health worker. 757 00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,200 Speaker 1: So another message I do want to deliver is stay 758 00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,080 Speaker 1: in your lane because sometimes people who are not trained 759 00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:58,239 Speaker 1: therapist might over help and it's not helpful. So a 760 00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:02,920 Speaker 1: great help is actually referring people places. And one of 761 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,680 Speaker 1: the wonderful things about the Internet is you can find 762 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:10,280 Speaker 1: resources all over the place for suicide prevention hotlines, mental 763 00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:13,839 Speaker 1: health services. You can go to websites and hand pick 764 00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:18,040 Speaker 1: a therapist who looks like you, who specializes in people 765 00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,880 Speaker 1: like you. So I would say, be a social worker, 766 00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,040 Speaker 1: don't be a therapist, help them get to the resources. 767 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,480 Speaker 1: Sometimes being the ear is good if we're talking about suicide. 768 00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:31,759 Speaker 1: If we're at that level of hopelessness, then I don't 769 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:36,120 Speaker 1: think the common relative is best suited to offer an ear. 770 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:38,839 Speaker 1: If we're talking early on and it's just a bad 771 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:43,080 Speaker 1: day and you want to help them avoid accumulating bad days, 772 00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,400 Speaker 1: then yes, be that voice. Let's go for a walk together. 773 00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:49,960 Speaker 1: That's one coping strategy that I used through the whole pandemic. 774 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,880 Speaker 1: Another colleague of mine we would meet at the park 775 00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,520 Speaker 1: three times a week and just walk for miles because 776 00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,759 Speaker 1: it's so freeing. You can just get everything off your 777 00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:03,120 Speaker 1: che us, breathing some fresh air, gets centered. I don't 778 00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:05,800 Speaker 1: want to tell everybody like there's a certain exercise that works, 779 00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,480 Speaker 1: because it has to be what works for you. But 780 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:11,920 Speaker 1: just engaging in something that's healthy that can help you 781 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,160 Speaker 1: feel reinvigorated. You could do that with somebody. Black women 782 00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:19,279 Speaker 1: in particular love sisterhoods. The research I've done on diet 783 00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:21,840 Speaker 1: and exercise, that's always the key takeaway. They want to 784 00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,399 Speaker 1: do it with their group. So if somebody in your 785 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,080 Speaker 1: group needs you, then hey, girls, right now. One of 786 00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:28,800 Speaker 1: my best friends and I we get on zoom is 787 00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:30,880 Speaker 1: six in the morning. We're in two different states and 788 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,279 Speaker 1: we work out together. Do that make a sisterhood and 789 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:38,400 Speaker 1: promote health together. But again also stay in your lane 790 00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:40,680 Speaker 1: if it got too far and it's time to talk 791 00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:44,040 Speaker 1: to the pastor the therapist, just be more of a 792 00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:46,880 Speaker 1: bridge to help them get to the resources they need. 793 00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:49,719 Speaker 1: I think what Dr Way said is important, and I 794 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,799 Speaker 1: think that one of the things that we hope to 795 00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:56,000 Speaker 1: do and want to do more with communities is help 796 00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,360 Speaker 1: them in being able to ask the questions and knowing 797 00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,160 Speaker 1: when they do need to refer out. So I know 798 00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:04,960 Speaker 1: in Florida we did a lot of trainings, questions, persuade, 799 00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:08,000 Speaker 1: and refer. Also, we know that families or people that 800 00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:11,000 Speaker 1: have concerns are going to go to people that they trust, 801 00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:13,279 Speaker 1: So they are going to go to the pastor they 802 00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:15,160 Speaker 1: are going to do those things. And so one of 803 00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,560 Speaker 1: the initiatives that we're working on is really training community 804 00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:22,400 Speaker 1: health workers in faith based organizations to also be able 805 00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:25,280 Speaker 1: to provide them and like I said, link with black 806 00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:28,840 Speaker 1: providers and communities. And so I think that it's important 807 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,319 Speaker 1: that we do find our village. I think that we 808 00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:35,200 Speaker 1: need that support and I know that COVID has really 809 00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:40,400 Speaker 1: harmed the way that most communities that live in collectivism 810 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,920 Speaker 1: and love their family support and their neighborhoods and their villages. 811 00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:46,360 Speaker 1: I think it has cost some issues there. So I 812 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,160 Speaker 1: know that we haven't seen some of the things that 813 00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:51,759 Speaker 1: are happening yet because of that, But I do think 814 00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:56,040 Speaker 1: that it's important for us to also ensure that we're 815 00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:59,319 Speaker 1: getting the community that the resources that they need to 816 00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,279 Speaker 1: be able to their loved ones. They're not gonna come 817 00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:06,240 Speaker 1: to us if we're not showing that we are able 818 00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:11,239 Speaker 1: and also responsive to the needs of difference, right, And 819 00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:13,160 Speaker 1: so I think again we still have a lot of 820 00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:16,880 Speaker 1: work to do, but I am eager and excited and 821 00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,760 Speaker 1: that unfortunately due to a lot of the things that's happened, 822 00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:22,959 Speaker 1: that there is some attention. But with just like any 823 00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:27,239 Speaker 1: other movement, we can't lose momentum, we can't lose focus. 824 00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:29,760 Speaker 1: And if anybody has been paying attention to the news, 825 00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:32,360 Speaker 1: you might not hear about it when it happens. But 826 00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,680 Speaker 1: there's a lot more black people, a lot more black men, 827 00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:38,759 Speaker 1: and a lot more Black women that are dying by suicide. 828 00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:40,920 Speaker 1: And we have to remember that they were not always 829 00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:43,799 Speaker 1: men and women. They were boys and girls. And I 830 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,239 Speaker 1: think we have to start really thinking about things on 831 00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:50,400 Speaker 1: different levels. Yeah, and it may be too early to tell, 832 00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:54,160 Speaker 1: but are you already seeing some of what the mental 833 00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,680 Speaker 1: health impact will be on the other side of the 834 00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:01,640 Speaker 1: pandemic and how that might really eight to suicide numbers. 835 00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:05,520 Speaker 1: Is there any information that's available yet. Yeah, Well, I've 836 00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:10,120 Speaker 1: actually been doing another project about COVID risk. It's really 837 00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:14,960 Speaker 1: bad for black women in two Like literally, when we 838 00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:18,000 Speaker 1: look at essential workers, who were the essential workers, who 839 00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:20,800 Speaker 1: are the people on the front lines, who were cleaning buildings, 840 00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,680 Speaker 1: who were ringing people out at grocery stores. Who are 841 00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:27,320 Speaker 1: the people that were drawing blood at the hospital predominantly 842 00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:30,799 Speaker 1: black women? Then when we look at people working from home, 843 00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:33,200 Speaker 1: who are the ones most likely to have to balance 844 00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:36,800 Speaker 1: a job and child rearing from the home Black women? 845 00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:39,880 Speaker 1: Then we look at pre existing conditions, who are the 846 00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:42,960 Speaker 1: ones going into the pandemic with poor health who are 847 00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:46,880 Speaker 1: much more likely to contract COVID? Black women suffer from COVID, 848 00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:50,080 Speaker 1: Black women die from COVID Black women. So it's like, 849 00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:54,040 Speaker 1: every way you can look at the COVID effect, it's 850 00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:57,520 Speaker 1: gonna have a worse impact on Black women. While also 851 00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:01,520 Speaker 1: sitting at home looking at the Brianna's Taylor's story unfold, 852 00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:05,640 Speaker 1: just everything that's going on. Who's gonna love the black woman? 853 00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:09,279 Speaker 1: That just the final question. So I would say I 854 00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:11,319 Speaker 1: want to be a hopeful person, but I think the 855 00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:13,440 Speaker 1: impact that this pandemic is going to have on a 856 00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:16,960 Speaker 1: black woman, it could be huge. The one good thing though, 857 00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:20,880 Speaker 1: I did a pre impost pandemic focus groups with strong 858 00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:24,560 Speaker 1: black women, and so during the pandemic, we reconvened our 859 00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:26,640 Speaker 1: focus groups and asked them what is it like to 860 00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:29,319 Speaker 1: be a strong Black woman with all these things going on? 861 00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:33,800 Speaker 1: And they were saying it was actually freeing because for once, 862 00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:37,279 Speaker 1: everybody was crying, So you know where we've had to 863 00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:41,200 Speaker 1: live our whole life and never crying. When everybody's crying, 864 00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:44,320 Speaker 1: you're finally allowed to cry. So so many black women 865 00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:48,480 Speaker 1: talked about just letting it all out, engaging in self care, 866 00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:51,560 Speaker 1: not having the pressure to have their hair done, their 867 00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:56,000 Speaker 1: eyelashes on, just so many of the aspects of our 868 00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:59,560 Speaker 1: gender that can be detrimental to your health. It was like, 869 00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:02,440 Speaker 1: all us are off, I'm done with this. I'm a 870 00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:06,120 Speaker 1: human and life sucks right now. So if we can 871 00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:10,760 Speaker 1: hold onto that, then that would be amazing moving forward. 872 00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:16,240 Speaker 1: But the honest truth is the economic impact, the academic impact, 873 00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:21,200 Speaker 1: the social psychological impact. I don't even know the fifty 874 00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:25,200 Speaker 1: fifty we might pull out as the superheroes, or it 875 00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:29,719 Speaker 1: really might show a dip in our mental health, which 876 00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:31,719 Speaker 1: is the complicated piece, right, Like that's the whole part 877 00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:34,000 Speaker 1: we've been talking about, Like if we pull out as superheroes, 878 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:38,720 Speaker 1: that means we have extended ourselves far beyond capacity yet again. 879 00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:40,880 Speaker 1: But in essence, it feels like this is what it 880 00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:42,640 Speaker 1: always comes back to you, right, as us trying to 881 00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,840 Speaker 1: save ourselves and like scrapping and scraping to try to 882 00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:48,919 Speaker 1: do it by any means necessary. Yeah, And that made 883 00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:52,080 Speaker 1: me think, also, Dr Joy, about how we look at 884 00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:57,319 Speaker 1: resilience and not like using that term like oh, you've 885 00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:59,839 Speaker 1: got this, You've got all the protective factors you need 886 00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:01,880 Speaker 1: Black women, so you're gonna be fine, or this is 887 00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:04,360 Speaker 1: what you have to do. I think we also have 888 00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:10,000 Speaker 1: to shift resiliency to like transformation and thinking about those things. 889 00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:12,960 Speaker 1: And I also agree with you, Dr Wade what you said. 890 00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:16,279 Speaker 1: I know, in we saw the death rates increase more 891 00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:21,000 Speaker 1: than for black girls and young black women. Think who 892 00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:23,480 Speaker 1: was looking at the ages of like ten to twenty four. 893 00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:28,960 Speaker 1: So to your point, I mean if you think about 894 00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:32,120 Speaker 1: the complexity of everything that has happened over the last 895 00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:34,600 Speaker 1: couple of years, and where do you see the intersection 896 00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:38,160 Speaker 1: of the black woman. The black woman is the mom 897 00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:42,200 Speaker 1: of the black boys, or they are the Brianna Taylor's 898 00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:45,239 Speaker 1: you know, the black women, all of the things that 899 00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:49,000 Speaker 1: you just said, and that intersection again of looking at 900 00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:52,960 Speaker 1: that race and that gender, and I really do feel 901 00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:58,640 Speaker 1: that that's the community that's getting hit hard because of 902 00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:03,040 Speaker 1: more of the struck true inequities that continue to take 903 00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:06,040 Speaker 1: over like a plague. Honestly, I mean that's really what 904 00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:09,080 Speaker 1: we're dealing with when we talk about pandemic and endemics, 905 00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:12,839 Speaker 1: I mean racism. So you know, what can we do? 906 00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:16,200 Speaker 1: But that is an age range developmentally that I would 907 00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:18,800 Speaker 1: like for us to pay attention to. But I'm hoping 908 00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:20,880 Speaker 1: the work that we're going to do and the access 909 00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:24,279 Speaker 1: that we have to the students that we work with 910 00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:27,160 Speaker 1: at North Carolina A and T, the community members that 911 00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:29,240 Speaker 1: they know that there are people that are really looking 912 00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:31,920 Speaker 1: at this and that we really do care and we 913 00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:34,200 Speaker 1: want to stop it. It's preventable. We just got to 914 00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:37,080 Speaker 1: figure out the right things at the right time and 915 00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:42,040 Speaker 1: stay true to it. And not give up. So Dr Vince, 916 00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:44,360 Speaker 1: I will ask you this question, So, what words of 917 00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:47,719 Speaker 1: encouragement would you share for people who feel personally responsible 918 00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:51,279 Speaker 1: for someone dying by suicide? Parents, friends, are loved ones 919 00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:55,239 Speaker 1: who feel like they maybe miss some signs. Grief is 920 00:53:55,320 --> 00:54:00,120 Speaker 1: so hard. Grief is so hard, and most importantly, I think, 921 00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:03,080 Speaker 1: just like everything else that we were talking about, you 922 00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:06,160 Speaker 1: do have to extend grace to yourself more than likely. 923 00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:10,200 Speaker 1: First of all, it's not your fault. You didn't miss 924 00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:14,239 Speaker 1: anything in terms of something maybe specifically that would have 925 00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:17,319 Speaker 1: let you exactly know that. But in terms of just 926 00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:20,520 Speaker 1: really words of encouragement, you are not alone. There's other 927 00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:23,359 Speaker 1: people that have also experienced laws at the level that 928 00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:26,800 Speaker 1: you have, and I would encourage you to find that space, 929 00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:30,399 Speaker 1: find that group of people that know what you're going 930 00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:34,279 Speaker 1: through and have can share those lived experiences. And it's 931 00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:38,719 Speaker 1: it's a journey, and there's a lot that we don't know, 932 00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:43,680 Speaker 1: and hopefully the more that we do know, maybe you 933 00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:47,399 Speaker 1: all can also get involved and help us understand things 934 00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:50,240 Speaker 1: that we didn't even know. But extend yourself from grace 935 00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:54,160 Speaker 1: for sure. M H. Yeah. You bring up such a 936 00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:55,920 Speaker 1: good point there, Dr Vance, because I think it is 937 00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:59,320 Speaker 1: very complicated because what we do know is that people 938 00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:02,879 Speaker 1: who maybe have been maybe chronically suicidal, right, or who 939 00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:06,719 Speaker 1: have had suicidal thoughts for some time, sometimes you will 940 00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:10,600 Speaker 1: see an increase in their mood when they are like 941 00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:13,920 Speaker 1: finally preparing to die, right, which I think also confuses 942 00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:16,440 Speaker 1: people because it's like, oh, I just talked to them 943 00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:18,880 Speaker 1: the day before, they were in good spirits and you know. 944 00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:21,279 Speaker 1: And what we do know is that sometimes when people 945 00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:24,479 Speaker 1: have made peace with their decision, there is a sense 946 00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:26,560 Speaker 1: of peace there, right, And so you may see a 947 00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:30,240 Speaker 1: difference and maybe more a big mood that would maybe 948 00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:34,080 Speaker 1: confuse you and let you think that nothing's wrong absolutely. 949 00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:36,480 Speaker 1: And I think if we focus on, oh, when they 950 00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:38,920 Speaker 1: did that, we could have done this, or oh I 951 00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:41,799 Speaker 1: should have noticed that. I think it's a rabbit hole 952 00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:45,840 Speaker 1: of so many things. That's just contributing to your guilt 953 00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:48,719 Speaker 1: and some other things that may be happening. And you 954 00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:53,600 Speaker 1: also should find support in helping you cope with the 955 00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:55,520 Speaker 1: things that you're dealing with as a result of a 956 00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:59,799 Speaker 1: loss by suicide. That's often something that we don't understand. 957 00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:03,040 Speaker 1: And to another point that a lot of people think 958 00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:05,839 Speaker 1: there's some other connotations to it, like why would they 959 00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:08,320 Speaker 1: do that to us? Why would we why? Why should 960 00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:10,319 Speaker 1: we live without them? You know, there's a lot of 961 00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:14,360 Speaker 1: things around that that we still don't understand. Mm hmmm. 962 00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:17,560 Speaker 1: And then a question for you, dr Ed, So, what 963 00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:19,719 Speaker 1: would your respond to be to people who believe that 964 00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:23,600 Speaker 1: people who die by suicide or selfish? That is a 965 00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:28,400 Speaker 1: big question. That is a big question. I would say, 966 00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:32,840 Speaker 1: when we talked about the key factors that are associated 967 00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:36,560 Speaker 1: with suicide risk and we talked about hopelessness, I just 968 00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:41,480 Speaker 1: can't really wrap my mind around someone who's absolutely wholeheartedly 969 00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:46,400 Speaker 1: feeling hopeless also being selfish. Those kind of seem like 970 00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:51,359 Speaker 1: mutually exclusive places to be. I guess you would say 971 00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:54,240 Speaker 1: they're selfish because they left their family behind or their 972 00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:57,279 Speaker 1: kids behind. But when you're at a point where you 973 00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:03,719 Speaker 1: have nothing to offer your kids physically, spiritually, emotionally, I 974 00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:06,520 Speaker 1: don't think selfish is an appropriate word to use there. 975 00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:10,720 Speaker 1: And I think people get too hopeless after so many 976 00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:14,040 Speaker 1: other incidences, and so I think we need to think 977 00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:18,280 Speaker 1: about how we treat our family members that are troubled, 978 00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:22,240 Speaker 1: because it's a process to get to isolation and hopelessness. 979 00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:26,120 Speaker 1: So I think first just selfish is just the wrong word, 980 00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:28,680 Speaker 1: and I think again we just need to go back 981 00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:32,280 Speaker 1: to the early days before it got to hopeless and 982 00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:35,640 Speaker 1: love on each other. Thank you for that, Dr Weave. Well, 983 00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:38,320 Speaker 1: I am so thankful for you both sharing your expertise. 984 00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:39,960 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I feel like I can talk to 985 00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:42,880 Speaker 1: you because there's just so much, so much to unpack there. 986 00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:44,760 Speaker 1: But I know we don't have all days. So can 987 00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:47,480 Speaker 1: you tell us where can we stay connected with you 988 00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:49,479 Speaker 1: so that we know about the new work that you're doing. 989 00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:52,320 Speaker 1: Can you share your websites as well as any social 990 00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:54,600 Speaker 1: media handles that you'd like to share and you can 991 00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:58,360 Speaker 1: go first, Dr Weave. Okay, Well, the two outlets that 992 00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:01,760 Speaker 1: are best to reach me would be LinkedIn or Instagram. 993 00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:04,080 Speaker 1: On LinkedIn, just make sure there's nine letters in my 994 00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:06,960 Speaker 1: first name. That's where everyone goes wrong. J E A 995 00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:12,560 Speaker 1: N N E T T E Jenet Wade and on Instagram, 996 00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:16,920 Speaker 1: Dr Dot j Dot Wade perfect and what about you, 997 00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:20,120 Speaker 1: Dr Man. The best way to connect with me is 998 00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:25,120 Speaker 1: on Facebook and Instagram. Dr Michelle Vans and hopefully Dr 999 00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:27,560 Speaker 1: Wade and I will be able to also share with 1000 00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:31,360 Speaker 1: you any new things that we do. People can access 1001 00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:34,360 Speaker 1: us at the University. We are at North Carolina A 1002 00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:36,959 Speaker 1: and T State University, but I think that we're gonna 1003 00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:39,880 Speaker 1: be out doing a lot more things in the community 1004 00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:42,480 Speaker 1: and together, so we'll just make sure that we share 1005 00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:45,520 Speaker 1: our information. And thank you so much for this platform. 1006 00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:48,520 Speaker 1: For sure, love everything that you're doing, and I think 1007 00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:51,760 Speaker 1: that it's important that we're having these conversations as well 1008 00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:54,600 Speaker 1: as other conversations. So I just want to thank you 1009 00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:58,840 Speaker 1: again for inviting us here. Thank you, Thank you both, 1010 00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:01,000 Speaker 1: Thank you. I appreciate it. We will be sure to 1011 00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:03,080 Speaker 1: include all of that in the show notes for the show. 1012 00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:08,640 Speaker 1: I'm so glad Dr Wade and Dr Vance were able 1013 00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:11,560 Speaker 1: to share their expertise with us today. To learn more 1014 00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:13,880 Speaker 1: about them and their work, be sure to visit the 1015 00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:16,840 Speaker 1: show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash 1016 00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:20,440 Speaker 1: session to forty nine. In the show notes, you'll also 1017 00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:23,120 Speaker 1: find links to resources that may be helpful to you 1018 00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:27,640 Speaker 1: if you're struggling with suicidal thoughts, supporting someone who is struggling, 1019 00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:30,920 Speaker 1: or if you've lost a loved one to suicide. If 1020 00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:33,560 Speaker 1: you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure 1021 00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:36,600 Speaker 1: to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black 1022 00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:39,440 Speaker 1: Girls dot com. Slash directory and if you want to 1023 00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:42,440 Speaker 1: continue digging into this topic, are just being community with 1024 00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:45,120 Speaker 1: other sisters, come on over and join us in the 1025 00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:48,680 Speaker 1: Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet designed 1026 00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:51,520 Speaker 1: just for black women. You can join us at Community 1027 00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:54,720 Speaker 1: dot Therapy for black girls dot com. This episode was 1028 00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:58,240 Speaker 1: produced by Freda Lucas and Elice Ellis and editing was 1029 00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:00,840 Speaker 1: done by Dennis and Bradford. Thank you all so much 1030 01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:03,280 Speaker 1: for joining me again this week. I look forward to 1031 01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:06,720 Speaker 1: continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take 1032 01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:07,120 Speaker 1: it care