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Speaker 1: Trust me? Do you trust me?

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Speaker 2: Right? Ever?

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Speaker 3: Lead you wish your trust?

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Speaker 1: This is the truth, the only truth.

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Speaker 4: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't

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Speaker 4: welcome to trust me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief

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Speaker 4: and manipulation from two levitators who've actually experienced it, not

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Speaker 4: the levitation though.

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Speaker 1: I'm Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 4: Today is part one of our interview with Claire Hoffman,

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Speaker 4: former member of a transcendental meditation community and author of

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Speaker 4: two different books we're going to talk about, but for today,

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Speaker 4: we're going to discuss her book, Greetings from Utopia Park,

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Speaker 4: Surviving a Transcendent Childhood, which is about her childhood growing

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Speaker 4: up on a commune like trailer park organized around transcendental meditation.

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Speaker 4: In part one today, she's going to tell us why

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Speaker 4: her mother started practicing TM, what it felt like arriving

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Speaker 4: at Maharishi's school at age six, and growing up in

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Speaker 4: the meditation focused community, what levitation actually was, and why

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Speaker 4: life there was actually kind of magical and gave.

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Speaker 5: Her a sense of purpose when she was young. She'll

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Speaker 5: talk about how she began to question the group and

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Speaker 5: the unhealthy worship of the leader almost like he was

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Speaker 5: a god. How Cosmo Magazine factored in, and how doing

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Speaker 5: research for her book and learning about how much he

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Speaker 5: was really just a human man shaped her perspective on

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Speaker 5: idol worship and helped inform her next book.

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Speaker 1: Real Quick. Some context for folks, So.

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Speaker 4: Transcendental meditation is a meditation practice initially popularized by a

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Speaker 4: man named I think I'm pronouncing it correctly Maharishi Mahesh Yogi,

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Speaker 4: who was the Guru to the Beatles and lots of

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Speaker 4: very very famous people in the nineteen seventies, and most

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Speaker 4: people use it relatively harmlessly, since it's just one of

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Speaker 4: many meditation techniques and directing your focus through meditation can

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Speaker 4: be generally helpful for folks, but some former members who

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Speaker 4: were deeper in reported levels of control and isolation, an

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Speaker 4: inordinate amount of worship of Maharishi and his alleged special powers,

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Speaker 4: prohibitively expensive courses claiming to offer enlightenment, and claims that

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Speaker 4: the TM community alone knows the right way to meditate,

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Speaker 4: so some do consider it a cult. David Lynch, may

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Speaker 4: he rest in peace, made it more popular, and most

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Speaker 4: likely that's the more chill version that your friends are

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Speaker 4: practicing today, but that is a little bit of context

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Speaker 4: for what we're going to talk about. Absolutely, before we

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Speaker 4: do talk about it, Megan, please kindly tell me your

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Speaker 4: cultiest thing.

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Speaker 5: The cultiest thing of the week for me is that

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Speaker 5: I have been infected by TM. We go into it

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Speaker 5: a little bit into the episode. I got taught it.

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Speaker 5: I was given a mantra and every day I feel

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Speaker 5: guilty twice a day for not doing it.

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Speaker 4: You feel guilty twice a day sounds healthy. I can't

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Speaker 4: get over the mantra thing. The mantra thing will never

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Speaker 4: cease to be funny to me because it is just

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Speaker 4: based on your birthday, yes, and it's presented as this

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Speaker 4: like big mysterious otherworldly thing, right.

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Speaker 5: Well, at least it's not like the final Boss in

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Speaker 5: Scientology where they hand you a crown drawing of like

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Speaker 5: a it's true.

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Speaker 1: But it's misleading.

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Speaker 4: Like I feel like people go in thinking it's this

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Speaker 4: like mystical, you know, specialized.

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Speaker 1: Like maybe nobody even else even has it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, but it's it's no, there's like one kind

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Speaker 4: of them.

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Speaker 1: You're one of ten.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I wonder what my birthday mantra is. Well,

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Speaker 4: you could probably go I mean you can google it,

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Speaker 4: don't you can google it? Oh I was gonna say,

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Speaker 4: I don't want to pay for it, but if I

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Speaker 4: can google it, great? Yeah, should we google it right now?

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Speaker 4: Let's google it right now?

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Speaker 1: Okay, what is my TM mantra? How do you find

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Speaker 1: it by putting in your data birth? Okay? Yeah, oh,

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Speaker 1: here we go mine. It looks like would be kareem. Wow,

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Speaker 1: what's yours?

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Speaker 4: You're selling curing? I'm not telling mine still feels slightly sacred.

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Speaker 4: Oh no, no, you have to say multiple things. Oh

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Speaker 4: I see. Oh I had a second course where I

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Speaker 4: got a longer part of my mantra. Actually, oh, it's

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Speaker 4: like first there are advanced techniques. You get more words

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Speaker 4: as you go, but initially it's it's categorized by your age.

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Speaker 1: Okay, this is too confusing.

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Speaker 4: I see it on a website that's trying to expose Tam.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I liked my Tam teacher. I think a lot of

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Speaker 4: people have really good intentions with it. I don't feel

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Speaker 4: like I was exploited at all for it, but I

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Speaker 4: can see how this could turn bad very quickly. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: if you're like totally, you're gonna Lavi Tate and.

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Speaker 5: Shit right, Yeah, so you got you've been infected with this,

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Speaker 5: and yeah, I'm infected forever.

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Speaker 4: Anyway, what about you? That's such a tangent. I'm so

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Speaker 4: sorry everyone.

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Speaker 1: Okay, here's michaeld Is thing.

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Speaker 4: I'm someone for whom politics is a very important part

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Speaker 4: of my life.

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Speaker 1: And social justice. I don't even like that term.

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Speaker 4: I feel like that term gets a bad rap, but

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Speaker 4: social justice is an important part of my life and

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Speaker 4: basically just like fighting the man, you know, fighting abuses

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Speaker 4: of power on a governmental level. And and I've attended

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Speaker 4: a lot of different actions and meetings and events and trainings,

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Speaker 4: and I have been having a lot of conversations with

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Speaker 4: friends who also value this sort of thing about how

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Speaker 4: we can bring more people into come to this stuff

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Speaker 4: and to like show up for that kind of work.

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Speaker 4: Because in this day and age and particular, our attention

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Speaker 4: spans are shot. There's a constant barrage of bad news,

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Speaker 4: so it's hard to even know what to panic about,

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Speaker 4: because then the next thing comes that brings a new

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Speaker 4: wave of panic, you know, so like it's hard to

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Speaker 4: know how to fight back against that because there's just

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Speaker 4: so much coming at us all the time. And that

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Speaker 4: is why in some of these conversations we've been talking about,

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Speaker 4: like how to motivate people to participate in a cause

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Speaker 4: and to show up to stuff, because like we'll get

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Speaker 4: a new news story that's horrific and then we'll react

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Speaker 4: to it, and then people will go to like a

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Speaker 4: really big protest, But it's hard to get people to

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Speaker 4: continue to show up beyond the point where it's like

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Speaker 4: the top headline in the news story that day, you

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Speaker 4: know what I mean?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I think I know where you're going

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Speaker 5: with this. Yeah, I bet you do.

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Speaker 4: So, so one of the you know, topics of discussion

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Speaker 4: is like how to pull more people in and provide

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Speaker 4: an emotional reward beyond having an outlet for their anger,

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Speaker 4: because our anger can only last so long, like it metabolizes,

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Speaker 4: you know. Like so you mean like a culture, I mean,

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Speaker 4: like maybe some of the things a cult sie but

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Speaker 4: for good, but for good. And that's a very important

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Speaker 4: asterisk because as we know, some of these tactics to

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Speaker 4: recruit people into causes can often be for bad. But

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Speaker 4: in the case of like building a movement to promote

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Speaker 4: justice and equality and solidarity, like you do need to

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Speaker 4: inspire people for the world that they want to create

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Speaker 4: and not just the world that they're upset about in

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Speaker 4: that moment. I think some groups are really great at that,

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Speaker 4: and some groups are more policy driven and it's a

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Speaker 4: little dry, and you know, it's all different. But there

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Speaker 4: have been times where I've attended some of these things

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Speaker 4: and I have almost expected that we were going to

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Speaker 4: like sing a song or something.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, it feels you're like holding a candle ready, yeah, or.

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Speaker 4: Like waiting for like not a you know, I'm not

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Speaker 4: a pastor, but like waiting for someone to get up

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Speaker 4: there who's gonna, like, you know, give a fiery speech

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Speaker 4: and make me believe in something bigger than myself. And

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Speaker 4: that is not always what happens. And of course that's

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Speaker 4: maybe unrealistic to expect all the time. But I will say, like,

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Speaker 4: I think more people that I know certainly would probably

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Speaker 4: show up to stuff if it functioned a little teeny

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Speaker 4: bit more like church. They're going, and they're they're not

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Speaker 4: only finding purpose, they're finding community, They're feeling emotions, they're

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Speaker 4: feeling an outlet for their hopelessness, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 4: And sometimes I think active who are doing such crucial

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Speaker 4: work I shouldn't generalize, but in some cases, they're so

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Speaker 4: focused on the important, important work that they're doing that

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Speaker 4: maybe the seemingly less important component of like the emotional

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Speaker 4: experience people are having while they're there, isn't as much

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Speaker 4: of a consideration, which totally makes sense because people's lives

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Speaker 4: are on the line a lot of the time with.

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Speaker 1: This kind of work.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, anyway, so that's why I'm like, let's just

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Speaker 4: sing a song, you know, let's sing a song. Let's

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Speaker 4: join hands. Some places are good about that though. We

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Speaker 4: talked about alan On in another episode and how you

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Speaker 4: get up at the end and end twelve step programs,

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Speaker 4: how you get up at the end and you like

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Speaker 4: hold hands and you say the thing together. All I'm

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Speaker 4: saying is I want a little bit more ritual and

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Speaker 4: just like it, just like a touch, just like a

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Speaker 4: little bit more cultiness to just kind of basically motivate

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Speaker 4: people to keep coming.

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Speaker 5: Back and never cross the line into badness. As our goal,

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Speaker 5: that is always the goal.

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Speaker 4: Speaking of groups that we're good at making you feel

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Speaker 4: like a big family.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk to Claire do it. Welcome Claire Hoffman to

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Speaker 1: trust me. Thank you for joining us.

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Speaker 3: I'm so excited to be here.

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Speaker 4: We're excited to talk to you because you have not one,

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Speaker 4: but two books that we want to talk to you

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Speaker 4: about today, not one but two cults.

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Speaker 1: Not one but two cults.

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Speaker 4: Will be curious to ask her later if she defines

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Speaker 4: the second one as a cult or TBD.

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Speaker 1: We will ask you that, but not yet. So the

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Speaker 1: two books.

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Speaker 4: First, there was Greetings from Utopia Park, Surviving in Transcendent

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Speaker 4: Childhood that is about your own childhood growing up on

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Speaker 4: a commune.

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Speaker 3: Correct commune ish yesh.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yeah.

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Speaker 4: And the second book, which we will also get into,

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Speaker 4: is called Sister Sinner, The Miraculous Life and Mysterious Disappearance

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Speaker 4: of Amy Semple McPherson. So let's dive in, and first,

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Speaker 4: can you just tell us a little bit about your

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Speaker 4: childhood and how your family first joined to this commune

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Speaker 4: ish that was a transcendental meditation community, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So my parents met at a transcendental meditation retreat

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Speaker 2: in the early nineteen seventies near Riverside, California. Actually they

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Speaker 2: were My mom was from New York and my dad

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Speaker 2: was from Santa Cruz. But they met and kind of

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Speaker 2: instantly fell in love, and they were both to different

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Speaker 2: degrees kind of followers of Marishima Heshiogi, who was this

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Speaker 2: guy that the Beatles were super into, and who was

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Speaker 2: teaching this transcendental meditation technique to a lot of college

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Speaker 2: students all around the world and especially in American universities.

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Speaker 2: That was sort of their evangelical technique, so to speak.

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Speaker 2: They really they was like thirty five dollars to learn

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Speaker 2: to meditate, and you know, they very quickly got pregnant

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Speaker 2: with my brother and got married, and they moved to

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Speaker 2: New York City where my dad was trying to be

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Speaker 2: a playwright and my mom was going to fashion design school,

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Speaker 2: and the kind of fell apart, and you know, my

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Speaker 2: dad was an alcoholic and super into coke and everything,

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Speaker 2: and he just left and my mom was like, uh, like,

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Speaker 2: what do we do? I have these two little kids.

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Speaker 2: So she moved us to this little town in Iowa

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Speaker 2: that the Mari she had bought a bankrupt university in

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Speaker 2: and put out like a call to his followers all

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Speaker 2: over the world for everyone to move there and practice

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Speaker 2: meditation together. And kind of extra layer on top of that,

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Speaker 2: in the late nineteen seventies, he had introduced a new

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Speaker 2: form of meditation that was called the Tmcity program, which

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Speaker 2: involved levitating.

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Speaker 1: Ah, yes, it sounds real.

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Speaker 2: Everything is real or the opposite, I can't tell.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So he had he was really into quantum physics, and

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Speaker 2: he had a mathematical formula that that if large groups

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Speaker 2: of people got together and practiced this levitation technique, we

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Speaker 2: would create world peace. My family moved there in nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty three with this like sense of purpose to all

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Speaker 2: meditate together and change the world. And by my family,

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Speaker 2: I mean my mom and my brother and I my

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Speaker 2: dad was gone.

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Speaker 1: How old were you when you moved there?

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Speaker 3: I was six.

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Speaker 4: Okay, do you think that this is something your mom

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Speaker 4: would have ever done without your dad kind of bought

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Speaker 4: them off.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's a great question.

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Speaker 2: I mean my dad was always a little like Saltier,

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Speaker 2: I would say, and a little more cynical and just

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Speaker 2: less you know. He would say afterwards like she was

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Speaker 2: more into it and he was just really into her.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I do wonder about that. And just the

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Speaker 2: incredible d stables. I mean he left I think fifty

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Speaker 2: dollars on our dining room table, and my mom was like,

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Speaker 2: what am I going to do?

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Speaker 1: And you're in New York City.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. It's like, do you want a sandwich? So, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it was. It was a really tough situation.

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Speaker 2: And she, I think that felt like her community in Iowa,

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Speaker 2: Like those were people that she was connected to through

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Speaker 2: college and through the TM movement, which is what they

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Speaker 2: called it, and she sent us. We went to the

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Speaker 2: mari She School of the Age of Enlightenment, which was

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Speaker 2: mariy She's Special School K through twelve.

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Speaker 4: Can you just talk to us about like what the

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Speaker 4: experience of arriving there was like at such a young age,

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Speaker 4: Like was that confusing or exciting or like what did

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Speaker 4: that feel like?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think I was really excited.

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Speaker 2: I mean it had been like a super tumultuous time

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Speaker 2: for us, you know. I mean my mom was like

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Speaker 2: a really good mom in a lot of ways, so

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Speaker 2: she created stability, but it's super unstable, and you know,

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Speaker 2: we got there and I had just this vision of

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Speaker 2: like a story book, Like I was like, oh, I'm

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Speaker 2: going to be able to play outside. I was like,

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Speaker 2: my main thing, I'm going to get to be outside.

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Speaker 2: Although when we got there, my mom was really scared

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Speaker 2: of me being kidnapped.

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Speaker 4: So because it was the eighties, right, whole milk carton,

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Speaker 4: a lot of milk carton for us.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, I was like, actually, just equally is intense.

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Speaker 4: Did you believe in the religion at that age? I

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Speaker 4: mean like, yeah, oh totally.

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Speaker 2: I was so in Like I mean, I feel like

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Speaker 2: my memories are all from those early years in a

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Speaker 2: palette that is TM. I would say, like if you were,

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Speaker 2: like AI make a TM like a movie, it would

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Speaker 2: all be like a TM filter which is pastel colored,

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Speaker 2: you know, and slightly.

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Speaker 3: Magical, and yeh yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean there was a lot that really worked for

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Speaker 2: me as a kid, right, there was a a sense

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Speaker 2: of purpose and magic and possibility which felt really good.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you know, as someone who also believed I

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Speaker 4: was going to save the world or something.

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Speaker 1: As a child, I can attest.

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Speaker 4: I mean I was a little older, I was twelve,

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Speaker 4: but I can attest that, Like that's a really special

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Speaker 4: and exciting feeling.

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Speaker 1: You're like, oh my gosh, I'm a part. It's like

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Speaker 1: being Harry Potter.

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Speaker 4: I'm a part of this bigger thing and I'm like

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Speaker 4: part of you know, these chosen people.

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Speaker 5: It also just sounds like it's so it sounds beautiful.

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Speaker 5: Am I imagining that correctly like this, it.

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Speaker 3: Wasn't that big.

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Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, like we got there, we were still

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Speaker 2: super poor, and we ended up. I mean, my mom

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Speaker 2: had gone to college and was getting her master's degree.

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Speaker 2: My dad had gone to the University of Iowa writer's workshop.

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Speaker 2: Like my grandfather was a scientist like we were.

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Speaker 1: I was a legit writer.

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Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, but but for the cocaine, right right.

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Speaker 2: But I mean, like it was I guess more, I'm saying,

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Speaker 2: like my mom grew up middle class, like her dad

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Speaker 2: worked at Princeton in a lab. My grandmother was a nurse,

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Speaker 2: like like we sort of came from a family of

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Speaker 2: middle class professionals, I would say. And when we got there,

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Speaker 2: I mean, my mom like there was no work like

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Speaker 2: she I think she took a job as a waitress

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Speaker 2: at like a vegetarian cafe, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: Like, and we moved.

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Speaker 2: Really quickly, I mean, which we were really happy about, frankly,

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Speaker 2: to Utopia Park that's what the book is named after,

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Speaker 2: which was a meditator only trailer park. So it wasn't

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Speaker 2: I mean there was like a real rose colored glasses situation,

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Speaker 2: you know, where like I mean Utopia Park to me

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Speaker 2: in some ways, says it all right, like it's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: it's heaven, and by that we mean.

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Speaker 1: A trailer park.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Can you paint the picture of just like everyday life,

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Speaker 4: like what are you doing in the trailer park day

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Speaker 4: to day?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean some of it was awesome because lots

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Speaker 2: of kids live there from the school, and I could

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Speaker 2: walk to my school. It was like a mile walk

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Speaker 2: or maybe less from there, and like all my friends

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Speaker 2: lived around me. Like trick or treating was awesome, you know,

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Speaker 2: after school was great. But so the adults in our

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Speaker 2: town and things are different now, Like this was really

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Speaker 2: kind of hardcore time for the TM movement. This doesn't

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Speaker 2: really exist anymore. But the adults would meditate from like

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Speaker 2: six am to eight am and then five pm to

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Speaker 2: seven pm. So my mom would be gone during that

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Speaker 2: time and then come and take us to school and

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Speaker 2: I would be at school all day, you know, see

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Speaker 2: my mom for like an hour in between before she

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Speaker 2: would go meditate, and then you know, everything was just

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Speaker 2: really organized. According to Maury, She's principles of living, so

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Speaker 2: you know, like when you wake up, when you eat, like.

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Speaker 3: What you eat, how you eat.

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Speaker 2: I mean literally, there was a point where they were

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Speaker 2: sort of prescribing how many shoes to take a beach

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Speaker 2: bite of food?

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Speaker 1: Wow? And was it vegetarian? Was that the yea?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: And so was the restaurant your mom working at? Was

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Speaker 5: that owned by the group or no?

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Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, it was like some hippie entrepreneur or something.

360
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Speaker 4: I never know how to refer to him, the Maharishi.

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00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:20,800
Speaker 4: If I don't want to say the full name, what

362
00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:21,480
Speaker 4: do I say?

363
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:22,800
Speaker 3: I just say Mari Si.

364
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Speaker 2: But I've also been told that I say all Indian

365
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,480
Speaker 2: things like a South Park character, which made me made

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Speaker 2: me feel really seen.

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Speaker 3: I was like, that's pretty much it. Like I grew

368
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Speaker 3: up in Iowa. Actually, like I.

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Speaker 1: Was nailed it, Mari she.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, just pretend you're a cartman.

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Speaker 1: To what extent were was?

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Speaker 4: Were there actual interactions with him, like was he very

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Speaker 4: involved in the community or.

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Speaker 2: No, super Wizard of Ozzie like he always lived when

375
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Speaker 2: I was growing up. He was either in India or

376
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Speaker 2: in Europe, and apparently they were like has issues, so

377
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:05,840
Speaker 2: he never came. I mean, we also heard that his

378
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:09,720
Speaker 2: state of enlightenment made it hard to be around people,

379
00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:14,160
Speaker 2: but wealthy donors would travel to go see him. So

380
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,159
Speaker 2: he would communicate with us. You would either get like

381
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,679
Speaker 2: trickle down knowledge, like if somebody rich who was like

382
00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,120
Speaker 2: a donor to the school, they would like go visit

383
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Speaker 2: him in India and come back and be like, all

384
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,840
Speaker 2: the math now needs to be in Sanskrit or something,

385
00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,080
Speaker 2: and they'd be like, let's change everything, you know. I

386
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,080
Speaker 2: mean they did that literally when I was in sixth grade.

387
00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:37,280
Speaker 2: They switched to something called Vedic math, which like destroyed

388
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:43,840
Speaker 2: my brain forever. You can't do that, yeah, yeah, oh,

389
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:49,800
Speaker 2: my standardized test scores were amazing. But otherwise he would

390
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:55,159
Speaker 2: communicate with us through telecast. So like these big for

391
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,520
Speaker 2: people to meditate together. They built these two giant golden

392
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:03,199
Speaker 2: dome buildings and that were covered like their big arched

393
00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,879
Speaker 2: wooden ceilings, and then they had you know, like almost

394
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,960
Speaker 2: like bed foam with white sheets across the whole floor,

395
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,760
Speaker 2: which was like super fun, but that was for people

396
00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:15,480
Speaker 2: to be levitating on. So they would have all the

397
00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,960
Speaker 2: celebrations and ceremonies there, so like I mean, I think

398
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Speaker 2: they each held a couple of thousand people.

399
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Speaker 3: They had the men's dome and the women's dome.

400
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,720
Speaker 2: And he they would put down a big screen and

401
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,480
Speaker 2: he would like it was like early days of zoom

402
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,040
Speaker 2: or whatever, and he would talk to us, you know,

403
00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:33,680
Speaker 2: for five minutes a few.

404
00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:34,080
Speaker 3: Times a year.

405
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Speaker 1: Did you ever meet him in person?

406
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:36,800
Speaker 3: I didn't.

407
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:41,119
Speaker 2: He was apparently there. I saw him. I have like

408
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,760
Speaker 2: a shard of a memory of seeing him. He came

409
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,680
Speaker 2: to Fairfield once when I had first moved there, and

410
00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,520
Speaker 2: I saw him up on stage. But I mean, if

411
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:54,240
Speaker 2: you couldn't imagine the amount of video that I've watched.

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Speaker 5: Right right, can you say more about the levitating? Like, yeah,

413
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,320
Speaker 5: what is what is the levitating?

414
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,399
Speaker 2: My kids are always like say the same thing. They're like,

415
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:06,840
Speaker 2: can you say more about them?

416
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:08,439
Speaker 1: Like what do you just google it?

417
00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:09,639
Speaker 3: You guys? Leave me alone?

418
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:14,760
Speaker 1: There's some mean to me? What is that? What's the levitating?

419
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:19,320
Speaker 2: So I think cities, like the city techniques come from

420
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:23,919
Speaker 2: like some kind of ancient text like the yoga potandually texts,

421
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,320
Speaker 2: So they're not specific to Maurisi. Like it's a book

422
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,000
Speaker 2: that you can buy in a bookstore, And I think

423
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,560
Speaker 2: the idea is that it promises you sort of superpowers,

424
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,720
Speaker 2: Like they are forms of meditation that promise you extraordinary powers,

425
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 2: and he kind of developed them for you know, the

426
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:49,359
Speaker 2: Western world in the seventies, and supposedly initially he was

427
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:51,919
Speaker 2: also teaching like the power to walk through walls and

428
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,359
Speaker 2: invisibility and like, you know, there.

429
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,600
Speaker 1: Was a lot of imagine sounds real. You have to

430
00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:02,320
Speaker 1: stop that teaching pretty quick, should right now?

431
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, people have barely kind of lost their minds doing it,

432
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,200
Speaker 2: and maybe even like the CIA tried to infiltrate, which

433
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,800
Speaker 2: is really really wow. Yeah, I mean you feel like

434
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,720
Speaker 2: the late seventies like people were just like down for

435
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:19,200
Speaker 2: more magic than they are now totally. Yeah, it's it's

436
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,240
Speaker 2: a it's a meditation technique. Like you meditate for like

437
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:26,199
Speaker 2: an hour and then you start seeing these other different mantras.

438
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,360
Speaker 2: And there's one the levitation one that's supposed to make

439
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,640
Speaker 2: you sort of lift off the air, but no one

440
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:37,480
Speaker 2: as far as I know of, has actually maintained levitation.

441
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:38,440
Speaker 1: It's a hop.

442
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 3: It's a hop.

443
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:39,679
Speaker 2: Yeah.

444
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:40,960
Speaker 1: What does the hop look like?

445
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,880
Speaker 2: It looks like kind of butt hopping or like a yeah,

446
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:47,439
Speaker 2: like it's a kind of it's I mean, some people

447
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,200
Speaker 2: achieve more grace and beauty and theory. You're supposed to

448
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,919
Speaker 2: be in lotus position, you know, with your like legs

449
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,320
Speaker 2: crussed and yeah, you kind of bounce along.

450
00:22:57,800 --> 00:22:59,800
Speaker 4: It reminds me of why does a feather stiff is

451
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:02,400
Speaker 4: a because it's like, yes, technically I'm in the air,

452
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 4: but there is a physically feasible reason why I'm in

453
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,159
Speaker 4: the air, which is that there are fingers lifting me.

454
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 4: It just sounds like it would really hurt your back

455
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:15,679
Speaker 4: or your butt. Yeah, did people get injured like levitating hopping?

456
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,040
Speaker 2: That's a great question, not that I know of. That

457
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,400
Speaker 2: wasn't like a common complaint. I mean there was they

458
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 2: had like that big old like yellow foam people who

459
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:27,400
Speaker 2: kind of bounce.

460
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 4: As a child, were you participating in those like, were

461
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:33,400
Speaker 4: you doing long meditations yourself?

462
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 2: No, you could start to learn in high school, but

463
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:38,640
Speaker 2: like a lot of my friends weren't allowed to learn

464
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 2: because they were deemed not ready or bad.

465
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 4: Interesting, So was it like relatively normal then in terms

466
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 4: of like the structure of your day to.

467
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 2: Day life levitating or to meditate.

468
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,399
Speaker 4: I mean, like because in many cults, the children are

469
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,120
Speaker 4: like they either have to like be doing religion all

470
00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 4: day long or working, you know, Like, but it's like

471
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 4: you weren't necessarily participating that much in the practices themselves.

472
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, we meditated twice a day, like the kids meditated

473
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 2: twice a day, and you meditated, so until you're ten,

474
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 2: you would do like a walking meditation that was your age,

475
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 2: so you would like walk around for seven minutes saying

476
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,640
Speaker 2: a mantra, and then once you turn ten, you get

477
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,439
Speaker 2: a seated meditation, which is the basic meditation that like

478
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 2: all those college students learned in the seventies, Like that

479
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 2: was the kind of entry level TM, and it's like

480
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,640
Speaker 2: what just to fast forward now like people learned through

481
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 2: the David Lynch Foundation.

482
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

483
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:37,959
Speaker 5: Yeah, I was going to say, it's like what I

484
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 5: paid five hundred dollars to learn from me?

485
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:42,880
Speaker 1: Yes, teacher, I also dated So.

486
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 4: For my mantra, how did you go from believing in

487
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 4: this like magical thing where you're like saving the world

488
00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:00,119
Speaker 4: basically to having some more skepticism about it?

489
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it kind of was like this confluence

490
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 2: of events. I mean, when I was either eleven or twelve,

491
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,160
Speaker 2: my dad came back into our lives. He had done

492
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 2: he had gone through AA and gotten sober and had

493
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 2: you know, been trying to reconnect with us, and he

494
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 2: moved to Iowa.

495
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 3: He actually moved to Iowa City.

496
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 2: So we didn't move to I think he tried to

497
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 2: move to Fairfield for like six days and kind of

498
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 2: freaked out and had to.

499
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 3: Move to the Iowa city.

500
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 2: I heard that, Yeah, and so he started being part

501
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,199
Speaker 2: of our lives, and I think, you know, I mean,

502
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 2: he's just was like a naturally like very funny, very cynical,

503
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 2: just like kind of sophisticated person, and he would just

504
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 2: make observations.

505
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 3: I would say that that started to like stick with me. Anyway,

506
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 3: I was.

507
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,959
Speaker 2: Twelve and I had this moment at a school assembly

508
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 2: where this will definitely give you my exact age, but

509
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,719
Speaker 2: the head of the school and the university made this

510
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 2: announcement that they had just torn the Berlin wall down

511
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 2: and that it was because our meditations have been so

512
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,680
Speaker 2: powerful over the last few weeks.

513
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:13,680
Speaker 3: And I was just like that, that's not true.

514
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 2: Like my meditations, I've been reading Cosmopolitan inside my bedroom

515
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 2: during the time I'm supposed to be just to be meditating,

516
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 2: like that is just not a fact. Wow, that was

517
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 2: It was a real moment.

518
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 3: Actually.

519
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 2: What's funny is like I've been at parties, like big

520
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 2: groups of kids that I grew up with, you know,

521
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:35,679
Speaker 2: like when I was in my twenties, and there's like

522
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 2: a number of people that that school assembly was like

523
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 2: the snapping. Yeah, there was just a handful of us

524
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 2: that were like, no.

525
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 4: That is so interesting because I would think that if

526
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 4: I were in that position, I would you don't believe

527
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 4: it so badly because it would I would want to

528
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 4: feel like I contributed something to the world.

529
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:55,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't.

530
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 4: I don't know if that would be an awakening point

531
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 4: for my teenage Self's that's interesting.

532
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean this is why I say, like there

533
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 2: was a bunch of stuff happening around the same time

534
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:08,959
Speaker 2: for me, you know, with my dad coming back and

535
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,479
Speaker 2: just like getting older. But it was just I think

536
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,719
Speaker 2: it just registered suddenly as completely absurd, and that was

537
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 2: like this moment where the fabric to start to tear,

538
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 2: you know. And it didn't like happen right away. But

539
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 2: my brother was a couple of years older than me,

540
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 2: and he was super rebellious and like got into like

541
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 2: smoking pot and skating, and you know, my mom wasn't

542
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 2: around a lot, like she was working all the time.

543
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 2: First of all, was to afford like our private school

544
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 2: tuition to go to the Marketry School of the Age

545
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 2: of enlighten meant and to afford to be able to

546
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 2: go the domes and to be able to afford like

547
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 2: all the crazy supplements that you needed to do to

548
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 2: achieve higher states of consciousness.

549
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: Oh wow, did you have to buy them from them?

550
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:51,440
Speaker 3: Yes?

551
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean that's like I just to like zoom

552
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 2: out for a second. I feel like it's always interesting

553
00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 2: looking at religions where you're like, what's.

554
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,400
Speaker 3: Your what's your bag? Like what's your shadow? Is it

555
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 3: like sex? Is it like power? Is it violence? Or

556
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 3: is it money?

557
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 2: And we were definitely like it was a money thing,

558
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 2: as you can tell by the deal you got.

559
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, my deal, Yeah exactly, my Montra deal.

560
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, it's money that usually comes up.

561
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

562
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 4: Right.

563
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,120
Speaker 5: What was the emotional response to being like this is bullshit?

564
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 3: I think I.

565
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 2: Felt myself just retreat into myself more and become more

566
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 2: interested in the outside world. And I mean I will say,

567
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 2: like TM wasn't like a high control situation, you know,

568
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 2: like I how did I leave? Like I got on

569
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 2: a plane to go move in with my dad, and

570
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 2: like no one tried to stop me, and no one's

571
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 2: ever tried to stop me from saying anything, and like

572
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 2: it's it's not.

573
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 3: It's not like that.

574
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 4: Quick note for our listeners, Like we have talked about

575
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 4: in many previous episodes, different people can have a whole

576
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 4: range of experiences in the same group depending on the context.

577
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 4: We did actually interview Patrick Ryan and Joe Kelly, who

578
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 4: can talk a little bit more about a different experience

579
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 4: of TM.

580
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 2: It was a very intensely devotional atmosphere, and people, you know,

581
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 2: would pay a cost for not showing that devotion, you know.

582
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 2: Like so there was a point where just as an example,

583
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 2: like people were not being allowed to meditate in the

584
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 2: domes that went to go see other Indian like teachers, cheating,

585
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 2: cheating exactly.

586
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 3: Yeah.

587
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 2: I moved in with my dad, so that was kind

588
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 2: of easy, But I mean I wasn't until like, I

589
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 2: mean I was in college and I remember being like, wait,

590
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 2: like could I actually marry somebody who didn't do TM right?

591
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 2: You know, like could I Like there were a lot

592
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 2: of ways that I was like my brain had been

593
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 2: fiddled with.

594
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 3: And my mom still lives.

595
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: There, Oh really is it still tmy?

596
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 2: It's super tmmy, it's just not quite as vibrant. I

597
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 2: were not as big as it used to be. And Mary,

598
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 2: she's been dead for like fifteen years. So I think

599
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 2: David Lynch was a good thing for the TM movement

600
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 2: in the sense that he sort of returned it back

601
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 2: to the simple, like just the meditation technique, unless of

602
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 2: the guru culture. So I'm assuming when you learned TM,

603
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 2: like you didn't really learn a lot about.

604
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 1: Marie She not at all.

605
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 4: It was it was very celebrity they Lynch says, this

606
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 4: is what keeps him creative and clear.

607
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, there wasn't.

608
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 5: You know, threads back too, and there's whole community is

609
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 5: that this is helping to support.

610
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I don't I still practice TM,

611
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 2: is the truth, Yeah, I imagine, so it's very helpful.

612
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 1: Actually yeah yeah.

613
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that wasn't That's why I sort of always

614
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 2: say it was a moment in time in terms of

615
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,959
Speaker 2: the eighties and the nineties. It just like it was

616
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 2: when mari She was alive and the people who had

617
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 2: first sort of formed his movement, their level of devotion

618
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 2: and sense of his importance was all encompassing.

619
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 4: I bet the Beatles had a lot to do with

620
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 4: that too, just like it was so cool.

621
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he was an icon hanging out with icon. Yeah,

622
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: that's really cool.

623
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, speaking of him, Mari, she how was he viewed

624
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 4: in the community, and and then I would also like

625
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 4: to connect that to how it informed your next book.

626
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 2: Great, I mean he was to me. I mean, I'll

627
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 2: just speak from my experience. He was like an omnipresent god,

628
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 2: Like I believe that he had the ability to know

629
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 2: my thoughts and feelings and you know know if I

630
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 2: had been meditating regularly or not, although that obviously faded.

631
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 3: I got more magazines.

632
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, Cosmo really saved both of our lives. Actually, Cosmo

633
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 4: girl to it really helped me deconstruct.

634
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 3: I became a lady because of it. Was like, this

635
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 3: is my other way of being, Like I could go

636
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 3: to cocktail parties.

637
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 1: And data and nice to get it data and nice.

638
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 4: So you're allowed to read Cosmo because I got tips

639
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 4: and I got.

640
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: A Cosmo subscription. Your parents, you know, I would say,

641
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 1: like ten tips to blame.

642
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 4: They didn't look at it. Wow, I was like, here's

643
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 4: my Cosmo. I got seventeen. I got I got seventeen,

644
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 4: I got Cosmo. But yeah, I don't think I was allowed.

645
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 4: I'm surprised you were allowed.

646
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 5: Yeah.

647
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 4: When I was, we got like a thing where you

648
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 4: got like eighteen magazines, and I just chose a lot

649
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 4: of them, and they just didn't even like a magazine

650
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 4: descriptions were for a cult kad in those decades.

651
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 5: I don't know where I would be without magazines. And

652
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 5: to be fair, very brainwashed in many different directions where

653
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 5: I'm like twenty ways to give him an orgasm, like yes,

654
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 5: when I need two different things in my brain.

655
00:32:55,360 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: Skinny as humanly possible. So yeah, yeah, interesting.

656
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 2: Well, you know everybody's off ramp looks different, you know,

657
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 2: that's that's when it looks.

658
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: I love that.

659
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 3: I do remember. I remember that.

660
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 2: I like learned how you're supposed to answer the phone

661
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 2: sounding like you just finished having sex star what Hello?

662
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 3: Hello?

663
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 1: This is from so Long.

664
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 3: No, No, that's from Cosmo.

665
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

666
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 4: Yeah.

667
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:29,959
Speaker 1: Do you still do that? I assume.

668
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 3: I mean I try not to, but sometimes.

669
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 1: It just comes. Okay.

670
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 4: So he's like he's like a god. And you I imagine

671
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 4: in this like slow awakening that you were having started

672
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 4: to kind of see that more for what it was.

673
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 4: Can you talk about that and how that evolved over

674
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 4: the years for you.

675
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll try and condense this because it really was

676
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 2: a long process. But like so for example, you know,

677
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 2: when we had birthday parties at school or celebrations, there

678
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 2: would be like always like these giant cakes and they

679
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 2: would cut them and they'd take the first slice of cake.

680
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 3: And put it in front of Mary. She's photographed.

681
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: Oh wow.

682
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 2: I think there was a point where I was like,

683
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 2: that's lame, you know, like I don't think that's cool.

684
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 3: I don't like that.

685
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 2: And I feeling just grew That's basically my personality and

686
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,800
Speaker 2: view of life. But yeah, over time, I just started,

687
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,800
Speaker 2: like as I was teenager, I was like just really

688
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:35,280
Speaker 2: rebellious and exploring other ways of being and drinking and doing.

689
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 3: Drugs and whatever.

690
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 2: And I left for college and I wrote Greetings from

691
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 2: Utopia Park. It came out in twenty sixteen, and I

692
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,800
Speaker 2: would say during the reporting of that, I did start

693
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 2: to get a more nuanced view of him. I would say,

694
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,760
Speaker 2: of like just really understanding him as a person instead

695
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 2: of this like figure you know who was just controlling

696
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 2: everything from Afar. That has changed my perspective on so

697
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 2: many things where you know, I would read I remember

698
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 2: reading this book by this woman who said she had

699
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 2: an affair with him, and she talks about their like

700
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 2: pillow chats together and he's talking about his ambitions and like,

701
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 2: you know, his interest in banking and politics, and it

702
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:23,799
Speaker 2: just kind of made me be like, oh wow, like

703
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,720
Speaker 2: he's just like a man's surreal.

704
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 1: Yeah.

705
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I.

706
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:30,919
Speaker 2: Think he was trying to have her go on birth

707
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 2: control and like, truly I grew up with him as

708
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 2: like a deity who was like sexless and ageless and

709
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 2: you know, enlightened. But I also kind of wondered as

710
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 2: I got older and doing that book, like what it

711
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 2: cost him? You know, like what does it mean that

712
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 2: he never came? Like did it feel terrible to be

713
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 2: around us? You know, like did it feel incredibly isolating?

714
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 4: You have these very curious perspective on almost like the

715
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 4: characters that are these figures, the complexity and not just

716
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,359
Speaker 4: like this sort of evil person who's a leader, And

717
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 4: I think that's really interesting.

718
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 2: I should just say, like he like never did anything

719
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 2: to my family that like I hold against him. So

720
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 2: it's it's I can kind of do that empathy exercise.

721
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 2: But I feel like you guys have a lot of

722
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 2: people who come on your show hoogo art like from

723
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 2: totally different things. So I'm not saying like everybody should

724
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 2: be extended that thought exercise. But for me it was

725
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 2: it was kind of liberating in a way of like, oh,

726
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 2: he's he's a regular person who was ex age from

727
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 2: this province, and like, did it feel awesome and powerful

728
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 2: to be living in like a little room in Holland

729
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:49,279
Speaker 2: where you were calling all the shots or did it

730
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 2: feel like sad? And so that perspective informed my next

731
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:55,800
Speaker 2: book somewhat.

732
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:56,359
Speaker 3: Yeah.

733
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 4: So I guess that's a good place to transition into

734
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 4: this book that you've written, which is a biography called

735
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 4: Sister Center, The Miraculous Life and Mysterious Disappearance of Amy

736
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:10,319
Speaker 4: Semple McPherson. So come back next week for part two.

737
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:15,320
Speaker 4: We have more to talk about, and that concludes part

738
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:21,800
Speaker 4: one with Claire Hoffman. Megan, Yes, would you join TM Yes,

739
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 4: you literally already have already joined it. Would you join deeper?

740
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 1: Yes? Absolutely? And are you going to maybe you do

741
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 1: have the money too?

742
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 2: No?

743
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 1: Okay, imant important distinction.

744
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 5: No, but move into Iowa living on a commune and

745
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 5: just meditating.

746
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 1: That sounds so fun.

747
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 5: I went on a meditation retreat to France for graduate school,

748
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,839
Speaker 5: where we were silent for like ten days, I mean

749
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 5: for hours a day. We could talk at dinner and stuff.

750
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 5: It was like the best week of my life, best

751
00:37:57,840 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 5: ten days of my life. When I got back to

752
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 5: the States, I was having crazy auditory hallucination.

753
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 4: That's actually what I was going to ask. Did you hallucinate?

754
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, when you were there, you were no.

755
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 5: Once I got back, I took a nap and I

756
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 5: woke up and it sounded like I had five billion children,

757
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,319
Speaker 5: and my chest screaming.

758
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 4: Oh that happens to me sometimes when I'm half asleep,

759
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,839
Speaker 4: that it actually does. Like my sleep paralysis is well,

760
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 4: I keep my eyes closed because I'm too scared of demons,

761
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 4: not literal demons, but seeing a demonish figure. But what

762
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 4: happens to me when I get sleep paralysis is I

763
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 4: hear It's so scary.

764
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:34,879
Speaker 5: And we did. We did an episode with the guy

765
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 5: who who talked about how meditation just increases the likelihood

766
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 5: of those audits.

767
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, hallucinations.

768
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 4: We talk about that with Nittai Joseph is his name, Yes,

769
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:48,760
Speaker 4: wonderful guest, love to That was a few years ago. Now, Wow,

770
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,880
Speaker 4: time flies, It really does, especially when you're not meditating.

771
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 1: So we're so glad you spent this episode with us.

772
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 5: We can't wait to talk to you and her next week,

773
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 5: and as always, remember to follow your gut, watch out

774
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 5: for red flags, and never ever trust me.

775
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 1: Bye.

776
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 4: This has been an exactly right production hosted by me Lola.

777
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 5: Blanc and Me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is g.

778
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,720
Speaker 1: Holly. This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

779
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 5: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker

780
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:24,320
Speaker 5: is Patrick Kottner.

781
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

782
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:31,360
Speaker 4: Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hartstark

783
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 4: and Danielle Kramer. You can find us on Instagram at

784
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 4: trust Me podcast or on TikTok at trust Me coult podcast.

785
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 4: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,

786
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 4: shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

787
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 4: Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

788
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 4: or wherever you get your podcasts