Speaker 1: All the media.
Speaker 2: So there's a revolution long forgotten that was tucked in
Speaker 2: a corner of the Caribbean. Those outside of the region,
Speaker 2: it's probably quite far from mind. You know, when most
Speaker 2: people think of Caribbean revolutionaries, they think of Cuba. But
Speaker 2: at the time, the rise and fall of the Grenada
Speaker 2: Revolution was everything. Hello and welcome to it can happen here.
Speaker 2: I'm Andrew Sage. You're a Trinadian host of kappen Here,
Speaker 2: and I'm joined by.
Speaker 3: James, your American British co host.
Speaker 2: American British.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't really know how to say.
Speaker 2: That, Like, which order should that hyphen been?
Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, yeah, I don't know which way which way
Speaker 3: I'm supposed to hyphenate, because we don't hyphenate white people, uh,
Speaker 3: which is a.
Speaker 4: Very American thing.
Speaker 3: But yeah, to be here, I always enjoy learning more
Speaker 3: about this part of the world from you.
Speaker 2: I'm glad. I'm glad, and you know, as we speak,
Speaker 2: I'm hearing helicopters overhead, and no, it's really a reminder
Speaker 2: of the times that we are living in. Last night
Speaker 2: there were quite a few stealth helicopters flying overhead, quite
Speaker 2: close to the ground. About three of them. Wow, all
Speaker 2: the lights were off. So it's it seems to be
Speaker 2: a ramping up and escalation in some ways, or just
Speaker 2: a continuation of the existing military presence.
Speaker 4: Yeah, jeez.
Speaker 2: And as we're talking about military presence in the US,
Speaker 2: which is something that I spoke about on this podcast
Speaker 2: before you go and check it out, we here to
Speaker 2: discuss the very recent history, positive and negative of my
Speaker 2: northern neighbor, Grenader. So I don't want to bog anyone
Speaker 2: down with too many facts, but it's important to get
Speaker 2: a idea of the context. So Grenada is the southernmost
Speaker 2: in the grouping of Caribbean islands known as the Windward Islands.
Speaker 2: It's a country composed of Grenada, the island, and a
Speaker 2: few smaller islands, including Kariaku and Petimosknat. It's long been
Speaker 2: considered the Spice Isle, as the hilly mainland was and
Speaker 2: still is home to a lot of nutmeg plantations. They
Speaker 2: currently have a predominantly African population of just over one
Speaker 2: hundred and seventeen thousand, sharing a country merely three hundred
Speaker 2: and forty four kilometers squared or one hundred and thirty
Speaker 2: three square miles for reference, The five boroughs of New
Speaker 2: York City collectively make up seven hundred and seventy eight
Speaker 2: zero point eighteen kilometers square or three hundred point four
Speaker 2: to six square miles. So Grenada is small. You know,
Speaker 2: New York is big, but Grenada is also quite small.
Speaker 2: You know, for reference, it's slightly larger than Queen's but
Speaker 2: far less populated and far less dense. So it's talking
Speaker 2: small island state par excellence. And yet it has sat
Speaker 2: at the center of one of the most critical events
Speaker 2: in Caribbean history. And it might be one of the
Speaker 2: sights of yet another such incident in light of the
Speaker 2: United States request to Grenada on October ninth to establish
Speaker 2: a temporary military radar base at the infamous Maurice Bishop
Speaker 2: International Airport, a request which has not yet received a
Speaker 2: conclusive response more than a month later at the time
Speaker 2: of me recording this, so I thought it apps to
Speaker 2: finally talk about this moment in history. I went to
Speaker 2: my library and got a copy of Grenada Revolution and Invasion,
Speaker 2: a companium of essays from various perspectives on the topic
Speaker 2: arranged by Patsy Lewis at al. That provided the basis
Speaker 2: of my research, particularly the essay by mu Collins, a
Speaker 2: Grenadian poet and novelist. I also drew some of the
Speaker 2: radical background law from fundy Aka Joseph Edwards, an underappreciated
Speaker 2: autonomous radical healing from Jamaica who spoke about the situation
Speaker 2: in Non Shall Escape. All linked in the show. So
Speaker 2: I don't want to get too deep into the history
Speaker 2: prior to what's immediately relevant today's topic. Oh, keep things brief.
Speaker 2: A couple hundred Amerindians lived in Grenada prior to the
Speaker 2: European invasion. Human settlement may have been as early as
Speaker 2: thirty five hundred BCE, but most definitely by the second century.
Speaker 2: See Spain, upon stumbling upon it, claimed it but never
Speaker 2: settled it. England attempted to settle it, but was driven
Speaker 2: out by the indigenous inhabitants, and eventually the island was
Speaker 2: settled and subjugated by the French, who engaged in a
Speaker 2: protracted war against the indigenous between today's Grenada, Dominica and
Speaker 2: Saint Vincent of the Grandians throughout the seventeenth century. You know,
Speaker 2: there's this narrative that the Europeans came and they just
Speaker 2: easily conquered the entirety of the Americas, and it's important
Speaker 2: to lay that myth to rest. There was, of course
Speaker 2: a very tragic great dyeing that was responsible for a
Speaker 2: vast majority the indigenous population losing their lives to the disease,
Speaker 2: in some cases intentionally weaponized by the Europeans. But despite
Speaker 2: differences in their weaponry, the Europeans didn't have an easy
Speaker 2: time conquering the islands, or conquering the Americans at all.
Speaker 2: In many cases, they did not succeed in Conqune Islands
Speaker 2: for many decades or centuries of struggle, but eventually Crenado
Speaker 2: was established as a colony of over fifteen thousand slaved
Speaker 2: Africans by seventeen sixty three. A year prior, in seventeen
Speaker 2: sixty two, Britain took over the island from the French
Speaker 2: as part of the Seven Years' War, and the island
Speaker 2: was formally ceded to Britain in seventeen sixty three. By
Speaker 2: eighteen oh seven, Britain had brought one hundred and fourteen
Speaker 2: thousand slaves to Grenado. By eighteen thirty eight, slavery was abolished.
Speaker 2: In eighteen seventy seven, Grenada became a Crown colony and
Speaker 2: fast forward a little further under modified Crown colony status,
Speaker 2: the wealthiest four percent of Canadians were allowed to vote.
Speaker 2: Eric Geary founded the Grenada United Labor Party or GULP
Speaker 2: in nineteen fifty initially as a trade union, which led
Speaker 2: to the nineteen fifty one General Strike for better working conditions.
Speaker 2: Buildings were set on fire in this time, and this
Speaker 2: is in a broader regional context of radicalism and agitation
Speaker 2: for independence in the post World War II reality, which
Speaker 2: would intensify after many of the islands had already gained
Speaker 2: the independence. Eventually, Grenada got elections based on universal adult
Speaker 2: suffrage in nineteen fifty one and Eric Gary's party GULP one.
Speaker 2: This is before they got independence, though, in a time
Speaker 2: when the English speaking Caribbean was trying to establish a
Speaker 2: West Indies Federation between nineteen fifty eight and nineteen sixty two.
Speaker 2: It didn't succeed. Jamaica seceeded, and then Trinidad, so it
Speaker 2: fell apart, and after the fall of the federation, Grenada
Speaker 2: became an associated state in nineteen sixty seven, then finally
Speaker 2: gained full independence from Britain in nineteen seventy four, again
Speaker 2: under the leadership of Eric Garry. Who became the first
Speaker 2: Prime Minister of Grenada. The late sixties and early seventies
Speaker 2: were a radical time in general, so that's set in
Speaker 2: the stage for what comes next in Grenada, the rise
Speaker 2: of the New Jewel movement led by Maurice Bishop. You see,
Speaker 2: as Fundi found. In this time, we also had quite
Speaker 2: a few other confrontations going on across the Spanaphone, Francophone,
Speaker 2: Dutch of Phone and Anglophone Caribbeans. In nineteen sixty five,
Speaker 2: you had the popular revolt in the Dominican Republic against
Speaker 2: the military coup that was drowned in blood by the
Speaker 2: US invasion. In nineteen sixty seven, you had a spontaneous
Speaker 2: rebellion of agricultural workers in Guadelup. Nineteen sixty eight, black
Speaker 2: folks in Bermuda rioted against the racist and clueless control
Speaker 2: it dominated the island. In nineteen sixty nine, there was
Speaker 2: a violent confrontation against US soldiers by students and workers
Speaker 2: protesting the US occupation of the Panama Canal Zone. Kurisa
Speaker 2: was shaken by wildcatch strikes of workers, riots by employed
Speaker 2: and unemployed as well. Labor unrest was breaking out in Surinam,
Speaker 2: leading to general strike an Tiger had riots, strikes, and
Speaker 2: demonstrations over several years. Jamaica had workers at the Western
Speaker 2: Meatpackers established democratic control of their trade union local, taking
Speaker 2: full control over their union dues and negotiating their employer
Speaker 2: without official mediators to manage the sugar workers and the
Speaker 2: local community directly and of course infamously. In nineteen seventy,
Speaker 2: Trinad was shaken up as workers, academics and small farmers
Speaker 2: linked up against the system led by the government of
Speaker 2: Prime Minister Eric Williams, and after years of his rule
Speaker 2: under the Sloga and Massa they done. The people erupted
Speaker 2: against the newoor colonial system. Despite being ruled by this
Speaker 2: black leader, the hundreds of people in the streets championed
Speaker 2: black power, understanding what was needed was a people's politics
Speaker 2: in which new institutions could emerge. This black power revolution
Speaker 2: in Trondad was inspired in part by the black civil
Speaker 2: rights struggle in the United States, while also seeking into
Speaker 2: night the African and Indian populations in Tronad. After an
Speaker 2: attempted mutiny by the army and Venezuela and American gun
Speaker 2: boats standing by raid intervene, the military surrendered. The revolutionary
Speaker 2: initiative shifted away from the masses and doctor Derk Williams
Speaker 2: was saved. By nineteen seventy three, a few armed gorillas
Speaker 2: remained in the hills of Trinidad, but eventually their struggle
Speaker 2: was snuffed out. By nineteen seventy five in Guadeloupe had
Speaker 2: wildcat strikes taking place. Guyana had wildcatch strikes against the
Speaker 2: American and Canadian owned Boux side companies. Surinam had another
Speaker 2: general strike. Saint Lucia experience with wildcat strike. Dominica attempted
Speaker 2: to seize the British owned Castle brus estates. In Jamaica,
Speaker 2: there was a wave of appropriation from banks, warehouses, stores,
Speaker 2: batting shops and more cross Kingston and demonstrations initiated by
Speaker 2: students and workers against police brutality and for the release
Speaker 2: of prisoners. And in nineteen seventy nine Nicaragua had their
Speaker 2: revolution against the US Allied government. While all of this
Speaker 2: is going on, Grenada had a population of less than
Speaker 2: one hundred thousand people. It had just become independent under
Speaker 2: Eric Geary and Erek Garry is an interesting fella because
Speaker 2: you'll see some aspects of him mirrored later on. He
Speaker 2: came to power in nineteen fifty one with the wave
Speaker 2: of universal suffrage. He was twenty nine years all at
Speaker 2: the time. He had previously been a worker organizer in
Speaker 2: Aruba and was expelled from the island for that very reason.
Speaker 2: He spent deca in politics as a champion of agricultural workers.
Speaker 2: But younger generations were not as excited about him. They
Speaker 2: recognized his financial corruption, his penchant for rigged elections, and
Speaker 2: of course his use of secret police that were repressive
Speaker 2: to the people. So as creators making steps towards becoming independent,
Speaker 2: the people did not want him to be the leader
Speaker 2: of independence. There were strikes against him even before the revolution.
Speaker 2: But see Gary was karen on this tradition that was
Speaker 2: set up by the British. Whether he knew it or not,
Speaker 2: he and may have had this radical start as a
Speaker 2: worker organizer, but he came to carry on colonial interests.
Speaker 2: You know. He started off as a union man, but
Speaker 2: he turned against the workers, and even the British at
Speaker 2: one point had been scared of him as an organizer
Speaker 2: and had trepidations about him as an independent leader, but
Speaker 2: they still chose him and prefer him at the risk
Speaker 2: of maybe a more radical version of him leading an
Speaker 2: independent Grenader, and then came the New Duel Movement. Now
Speaker 2: the New Duel Movement is actually a combination of two groups.
Speaker 2: You had the Movement for Assemblies of the People, which
Speaker 2: was founded by Maurice Bishop, a lawyer who had studied
Speaker 2: in Britain. And you had the Joint Endeavor for Welfare,
Speaker 2: Education and Liberation or JEWEL, which is founded by Howard
Speaker 2: University economic student Unison Whitman. They were also joined by
Speaker 2: Bernard Cord, an economics lecturer at UIs in Augustin in Trinandobago.
Speaker 2: So at first, in terms of their politics, they really
Speaker 2: wanted popular assemblies and that sort of thing. But actually
Speaker 2: let me get into the background of the Caribbean left.
Speaker 2: You see, in the nineteen fifties there was an upheaval.
Speaker 2: You know, radicals had been shifting from the sort of
Speaker 2: Stalinism that had become popular in the post War two
Speaker 2: era towards a more critical sort of Trotskyism or Maoism. Yeah.
Speaker 2: See Lar James and George pat Moore, both based in London,
Speaker 2: were already advocate in independence for Africa and the Caribbean,
Speaker 2: rejecting the Styalinist idea that liberation should wait until after
Speaker 2: World Ward two.
Speaker 1: See.
Speaker 2: Lar James is an interesting figure politically to me because
Speaker 2: while he was ostensibly a Trotskyist, he was in many
Speaker 2: ways unorthodox in his approach to those politics.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Celar James's book Trying to Remember, it's called Beyond
Speaker 3: a Boundary or Beyond the Boundary.
Speaker 2: Beyond the Boundary.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a great book.
Speaker 3: To the only book about cricket that I've ever read,
Speaker 3: and that's the only one that I've ever enjoyed. Not
Speaker 3: a big cricket appreciate it, but as a sports historian
Speaker 3: that that book was foundational to like how how I
Speaker 3: approached my dissertation, and like as such, I've always had
Speaker 3: a really like a soft spot for him as someone
Speaker 3: who did sports living in academia for a living. I
Speaker 3: saw like a really positive example of the role that
Speaker 3: both of those can play in like liberation struggles in
Speaker 3: his writing. Yeah, Yeah, it's when I'd encourage everyone to
Speaker 3: read if you're looking for a book. It's like his
Speaker 3: writing is very readable, in his historical writing, like which
Speaker 3: I at the time of my life, when I was
Speaker 3: in grad school, I very much appreciated someone who wrote
Speaker 3: something that wasn't like self consciously trying to be dense
Speaker 3: and impenetrable to make them seem intelligent. Like face, his
Speaker 3: intelligence comes through just fine.
Speaker 2: Indeed, indeed, I've had a soft spot for him as
Speaker 2: well for some time, particularly after reading The Black Yakabins.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he used to assign that one alone.
Speaker 2: And I would say that the Tribean left at the
Speaker 2: time also had a bit of a soft spot for
Speaker 2: him because they were heavily influenced by his writings. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, in his nineteen fifty six pamphlet Face and Reality,
Speaker 2: which is about the Hungarian Revolution, ended up becoming a
Speaker 2: profound influence on Western Ian radicals, as it had revealed
Speaker 2: the potential of workers' councils and done a lot to
Speaker 2: expose the authoritarianism of the Soviet model. This is something
Speaker 2: that Bundy wrote about and highlighted as he's given his
Speaker 2: sort of discussion of the origins and trajectory of the
Speaker 2: Caribbean left. So in the nineteen sixties and seventies, radical
Speaker 2: thought across the Caribbean was shaped by these more democratic
Speaker 2: socialist ideals. Ye had movements like Jamaica's Young Socialist League,
Speaker 2: Trindad's New Beginning Movement and Creator's New Jewel movements. They
Speaker 2: were all inspired by James and by grassroots workers councils
Speaker 2: rather than the typical Soviet orthodoxy. Of course, the Caribbean
Speaker 2: left was not immune to conflict or division. There were
Speaker 2: conflicts between those who were more loyal to stylists or
Speaker 2: pro Soviet positions, and that led to some splits within
Speaker 2: unions and political movements. Now, initially the Neutral Movement was
Speaker 2: leaning in that participatory democratic direction, but eventually they ended
Speaker 2: up going in to studying Marxism Leninism more not really
Speaker 2: at first they mainly wanted Gary out, but later they
Speaker 2: went into Marxism Leninism and transformed the movement into a
Speaker 2: proper political party of the vanguard variety in an effort
Speaker 2: to unseat Geary. They started building some momentum and immediately
Speaker 2: based consequences. In nineteen seventy three, Bishop Whiteman and others
Speaker 2: got beaten up and arrested by Gary's secret police multiple times.
Speaker 2: Bishop's own father was shot and killed by Gary's forces,
Speaker 2: and the high schoolers that were also taking a stand
Speaker 2: against Gary at the time were facing repression and violence. Now,
Speaker 2: with nineteen seventy four, independence was one, but sadly under
Speaker 2: Gary and his notorious secret police, which were by the way,
Speaker 2: called the Mongoose Gang. Now there was already suspicions of
Speaker 2: potential election fraud, and it wasn't helped by the fact
Speaker 2: that his Mongoose Gang was known to intimidate people. But
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy six, despite this for a political landscape,
Speaker 2: Bishop won a leadership role as opposition and became known
Speaker 2: across the country in our country as small as as Grenader,
Speaker 2: as someone charismatic, personable, relatable. The New Dual Movement started
Speaker 2: to build a reputation for being connected to the people,
Speaker 2: engage with students, engage with pro bono work. In some cases,
Speaker 2: as I mentioned, some of them were lawyers, and they
Speaker 2: were youthful. They were bringing a youthful energy to the
Speaker 2: sort of old god colonial era politics of Erik Garry
Speaker 2: and his ILK. So the story of how the New
Speaker 2: Dual Movement came into power is actually a bit humorous
Speaker 2: to me. On the thirteenth of March nineteen seventy nine,
Speaker 2: Gary went to the UN meeting in New York that
Speaker 2: was happening at the time, and as the saying goes,
Speaker 2: when the cat's away, the mice will play. In this case,
Speaker 2: while the cat was away, the New Dual Movement pulled
Speaker 2: off a coup, a completely bloodless coup. They took control
Speaker 2: of the army barracks and the radio. When they went
Speaker 2: on the radio, and this is the funny part to me,
Speaker 2: they told people to go to police stations and demand
Speaker 2: that they put up white flags of surrender. And the
Speaker 2: population was so anti Gary that they did it. They
Speaker 2: just walked up in civilization. So they're like, yeah, put
Speaker 2: up these white flags, and the police shaid, yeah, sure,
Speaker 2: that was that. That's how the New Jeal movement came
Speaker 2: into power.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And this is such a fascinating time in history, right,
Speaker 3: Like they used to teach a class about culturing colonialism
Speaker 3: back in the day, and we would talk a lot
Speaker 3: about like this time period, like the post wind Rush
Speaker 3: period where like Caribbean political culture was very influential even
Speaker 3: in the metropol right in Britain specifically, Like this is
Speaker 3: when we have like sca music and then punk music
Speaker 3: arriving from that, which is a serious political force in
Speaker 3: a twentieth century. Like it's easy for people to sniff
Speaker 3: at that or whatever, but and that's the reason I
Speaker 3: am the way I am so like, I guess I
Speaker 3: have a fondness for it, but also like the state's
Speaker 3: capacity for violence and surveillance hasn't caught up to the
Speaker 3: capacity for mass communication yet, and so you have these
Speaker 3: movements which can mobilize a ton of people and the
Speaker 3: state isn't like all up in them with informers and like,
Speaker 3: it can either respond as a Soviet Union did in
Speaker 3: Hungary right with tanks that's where we get the word
Speaker 3: tanky from, or it can crumble like by people turning
Speaker 3: up and turn of the cops to surrender.
Speaker 2: Like.
Speaker 3: It's just a fascinating, like little to three decade period
Speaker 3: in history before the state, I guess recovers its advantage
Speaker 3: in terms of violence and surveillance. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I marvel at this time because I mean they didn't
Speaker 2: have this social media and stuff to connect people and
Speaker 2: you know, advertise they we're having this this protest or
Speaker 2: this action or this whatever. Yeah, but the networks were
Speaker 2: still there, you know, they were organic, and they were
Speaker 2: motivated by a genuine sense that a seriative was actionable. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, I think we have this sort of twenty
Speaker 2: first century Malays of cynicism. It's like that was tried before,
Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, every time we look at something, we
Speaker 2: can say, oh, that was tried before and they failed.
Speaker 2: When we look back at history, people who try those things,
Speaker 2: they didn't know if it was going to work out
Speaker 2: or not. They just tried it. I wouldn't be surprised
Speaker 2: if I was a fly on the wall on the
Speaker 2: day of the school if the neudual movement guys were
Speaker 2: just like, wait, what that actually works?
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, Like.
Speaker 2: Not to take away from their plan and an organization
Speaker 2: and you know, the genuine grassroots support that they had.
Speaker 2: It's still a swing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, totally.
Speaker 3: At some point you have to like roll the dice
Speaker 3: right and see how it goes, Like in this case.
Speaker 2: The roles of critical success, I'd.
Speaker 3: Say, yeah, yeah, it's a natural twenty Yeah, the Dragon's term.
Speaker 4: So I'd really like to let it out.
Speaker 3: In this period, this is like the heyday of pirate radio, right,
Speaker 3: where you have people broadcasting but like outside of sake control,
Speaker 3: and it's a really interesting time for culture and music.
Speaker 3: Like scar music explicitly explicitly begins in an anti racist way, right,
Speaker 3: like it calls itself two tone of music. Because bands
Speaker 3: were often look multi racial, and it's really interesting that
Speaker 3: we have this whole cultural movement which owes a lot
Speaker 3: to the wind Rush generation. But like you said, it's
Speaker 3: questioning the both capitalists and also Marxist orthodoxies in a
Speaker 3: way that I know, but I really wish. I mean
Speaker 3: a lot of people do today, don't get me wrong,
Speaker 3: but I wonder if we could tell those people now
Speaker 3: that you'd have people who were like dedicated vanguard Marxists. Again,
Speaker 3: like you know, it just seems a sad noise.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think we could say the same
Speaker 2: thing about a lot of people's current politics. I'm sure
Speaker 2: if you went back in the past and we're like,
Speaker 2: you know, people are actually trying to be troadwives right
Speaker 2: now twenty five. You want to talk to the woman
Speaker 2: who had like no ability to open a bank account
Speaker 2: and we're trying to escape financial abuse, to rest abuse,
Speaker 2: all these different things, and they're like, oh, you know,
Speaker 2: there's actually a whole internet a trend of like, yeah,
Speaker 2: your husband should control all your finances. Actually yeah, I mean,
Speaker 2: of course that kind of sentiment never went away, but
Speaker 2: it's popularization definitely debunks I think this sort of notion
Speaker 2: that that progress quote unquote is something that is inevitable
Speaker 2: or irreversible.
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, Yeah, that's right. I mean you can even
Speaker 3: travel across the world and share that. I can only
Speaker 3: imagine how that would be received in Russia. Ava right
Speaker 3: to tell the friends in the women's movement that there
Speaker 3: are Western women who aspire to be tradwives. I mean,
Speaker 3: I'm sure they're aware they have the Internet, but yeah,
Speaker 3: it's certainly Yeah, this idea that we can only progress
Speaker 3: or move in one duration.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's how the New Droal movement came into power,
Speaker 2: and upon getting to that position, they established the People's
Speaker 2: Revolutionary Government or PRG, which is led now by the
Speaker 2: Prime Minister of Grenader, Maurice Bishop. They were considered legitimate,
Speaker 2: of course, because they did have the people's mandate, but
Speaker 2: they opted not to solidify that legitimacy with an election,
Speaker 2: and they also went on to ban other parties. So
Speaker 2: in the next episode, I want to get into what
Speaker 2: exactly they did when they were in power in broad strokes,
Speaker 2: all their hits and misses with the economy and politics
Speaker 2: over the course of their four years, and how it
Speaker 2: culminated in an internal split, multiple killings and a US invasion.
Speaker 2: But if you want the details and how all that
Speaker 2: played out, you'll have to tune in. Next time. We'll
Speaker 2: get into the outcome of the PRG, the flaws, the revolution,
Speaker 2: its downfall, and where Grenda stands today. But before we
Speaker 2: wrap up any final thoughts, James.
Speaker 4: I feel okay, Yeah, I just had lots of them.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is a fascinating period and like now, as
Speaker 3: much as there ever has been, it's a vital time
Speaker 3: for us to study this Rightly, As a person who's
Speaker 3: taught in American schools and universities, this one doesn't come
Speaker 3: up very much. It's certainly not like in the required
Speaker 3: teaching syllabi in anywhere that I've taught. And I think
Speaker 3: as we return to like Monroe Doctrine two point zero
Speaker 3: or whatever whatever we're doing the United States, it's doing
Speaker 3: in the Western hemisphere right now, it's vital to understand
Speaker 3: the role it has played in suppressing progressive political movements
Speaker 3: in the last century.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you know, as you mentioned, there's already
Speaker 2: in the typical history and historical accounts that it's taught
Speaker 2: to students. It's just I think I'm marveled sometimes at
Speaker 2: you know, that's that's exactly how empire functions. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: the acts forgets what the true remembers is the female
Speaker 2: say it so something like the US's operations and Grenado
Speaker 2: or anywhere else in the world, in all the many
Speaker 2: places they have intervened. I may not even muster a
Speaker 2: passing mentionure and a centerence e one in a historical class,
Speaker 2: in a history class the United States, and yet it
Speaker 2: is pivotal to the histories and self identities up to
Speaker 2: the present day of entire regions and people's You know,
Speaker 2: it may be a footnote if so much in these
Speaker 2: started curriculums in the United States. But it's one of
Speaker 2: the most recent and raw incidents of violence and traumas
Speaker 2: take place in the Caribbean. Yeah, absolutely, and they're not
Speaker 2: independent history.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: When Trump was first assuming office this time, there was
Speaker 3: a brief moment when they were talking about returning to
Speaker 3: colonizing Panama. If you can cast your mind that far back.
Speaker 2: He has flooded the zone quite successfully. But I do
Speaker 2: recall that.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I had been in Panama two months before that,
Speaker 3: and I think the United States large portion of the
Speaker 3: population either doesn't know or has forgotten that, like independence
Speaker 3: from American sort of neo colonialism is integral to Panamanian identity. Like,
Speaker 3: I don't think they'd realized quite how unwilling to accept
Speaker 3: going back to that Panamanian people were.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a long struggle, yes, to eke out independence.
Speaker 2: I mean even now there's you know, us new cleanism
Speaker 2: is alive and well in Panama in many ways. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but what gains they have Yain is you know, something
Speaker 2: they're not willing to lose.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, And yeah, I mean the United States supports
Speaker 3: people through Panama. The Biden administration sent its Secretary of
Speaker 3: Homeland Security to the inauguration of the Panamanian president. The
Speaker 3: US funds Panamanian deportations did under the Biden administration, including
Speaker 3: of people who have no criminal record, Like we have
Speaker 3: effectively externalized our border regime to Panama in the way
Speaker 3: that we've also done to the Dominican Republic and Haiti. Right, Like,
Speaker 3: I guess what I'm saying is I don't want people
Speaker 3: to think that this is a one off that like
Speaker 3: either the Trump stuff is a massive leap from previous policy.
Speaker 3: It's a change in scale, not in kind. Or that
Speaker 3: that you know, the United States hasn't done this before,
Speaker 3: and that has some history of doing this in the
Speaker 3: Western hemisphere.
Speaker 2: Indeed, so on that rather depressing notes. Yeah, well, we'll
Speaker 2: leave it here for it could happen here, but you
Speaker 2: can join us for the next episode when we will
Speaker 2: get into exactly what took place in Grenada and where
Speaker 2: Grenada stands today. So then, or power to all the
Speaker 2: people peace.
Speaker 1: It could happen here is a production of cool Zone Media.
Speaker 1: From More podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
Speaker 1: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 1: You can now find sources for it could Happen here
Speaker 1: listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.