1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 1: All the media. 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 2: So there's a revolution long forgotten that was tucked in 3 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 2: a corner of the Caribbean. Those outside of the region, 4 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 2: it's probably quite far from mind. You know, when most 5 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 2: people think of Caribbean revolutionaries, they think of Cuba. But 6 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 2: at the time, the rise and fall of the Grenada 7 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 2: Revolution was everything. Hello and welcome to it can happen here. 8 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 2: I'm Andrew Sage. You're a Trinadian host of kappen Here, 9 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 2: and I'm joined by. 10 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 3: James, your American British co host. 11 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 2: American British. 12 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't really know how to say. 13 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:47,880 Speaker 2: That, Like, which order should that hyphen been? 14 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, yeah, I don't know which way which way 15 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:54,959 Speaker 3: I'm supposed to hyphenate, because we don't hyphenate white people, uh, 16 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 3: which is a. 17 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 4: Very American thing. 18 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 3: But yeah, to be here, I always enjoy learning more 19 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 3: about this part of the world from you. 20 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 2: I'm glad. I'm glad, and you know, as we speak, 21 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 2: I'm hearing helicopters overhead, and no, it's really a reminder 22 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 2: of the times that we are living in. Last night 23 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 2: there were quite a few stealth helicopters flying overhead, quite 24 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 2: close to the ground. About three of them. Wow, all 25 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 2: the lights were off. So it's it seems to be 26 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 2: a ramping up and escalation in some ways, or just 27 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 2: a continuation of the existing military presence. 28 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, jeez. 29 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 2: And as we're talking about military presence in the US, 30 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 2: which is something that I spoke about on this podcast 31 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 2: before you go and check it out, we here to 32 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 2: discuss the very recent history, positive and negative of my 33 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 2: northern neighbor, Grenader. So I don't want to bog anyone 34 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 2: down with too many facts, but it's important to get 35 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 2: a idea of the context. So Grenada is the southernmost 36 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 2: in the grouping of Caribbean islands known as the Windward Islands. 37 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 2: It's a country composed of Grenada, the island, and a 38 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 2: few smaller islands, including Kariaku and Petimosknat. It's long been 39 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 2: considered the Spice Isle, as the hilly mainland was and 40 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 2: still is home to a lot of nutmeg plantations. They 41 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 2: currently have a predominantly African population of just over one 42 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 2: hundred and seventeen thousand, sharing a country merely three hundred 43 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 2: and forty four kilometers squared or one hundred and thirty 44 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 2: three square miles for reference, The five boroughs of New 45 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 2: York City collectively make up seven hundred and seventy eight 46 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 2: zero point eighteen kilometers square or three hundred point four 47 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 2: to six square miles. So Grenada is small. You know, 48 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,359 Speaker 2: New York is big, but Grenada is also quite small. 49 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 2: You know, for reference, it's slightly larger than Queen's but 50 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 2: far less populated and far less dense. So it's talking 51 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 2: small island state par excellence. And yet it has sat 52 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 2: at the center of one of the most critical events 53 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 2: in Caribbean history. And it might be one of the 54 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 2: sights of yet another such incident in light of the 55 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 2: United States request to Grenada on October ninth to establish 56 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 2: a temporary military radar base at the infamous Maurice Bishop 57 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 2: International Airport, a request which has not yet received a 58 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,399 Speaker 2: conclusive response more than a month later at the time 59 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 2: of me recording this, so I thought it apps to 60 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 2: finally talk about this moment in history. I went to 61 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 2: my library and got a copy of Grenada Revolution and Invasion, 62 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 2: a companium of essays from various perspectives on the topic 63 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 2: arranged by Patsy Lewis at al. That provided the basis 64 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 2: of my research, particularly the essay by mu Collins, a 65 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 2: Grenadian poet and novelist. I also drew some of the 66 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 2: radical background law from fundy Aka Joseph Edwards, an underappreciated 67 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 2: autonomous radical healing from Jamaica who spoke about the situation 68 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 2: in Non Shall Escape. All linked in the show. So 69 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 2: I don't want to get too deep into the history 70 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 2: prior to what's immediately relevant today's topic. Oh, keep things brief. 71 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 2: A couple hundred Amerindians lived in Grenada prior to the 72 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 2: European invasion. Human settlement may have been as early as 73 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 2: thirty five hundred BCE, but most definitely by the second century. 74 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 2: See Spain, upon stumbling upon it, claimed it but never 75 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:27,799 Speaker 2: settled it. England attempted to settle it, but was driven 76 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 2: out by the indigenous inhabitants, and eventually the island was 77 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 2: settled and subjugated by the French, who engaged in a 78 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 2: protracted war against the indigenous between today's Grenada, Dominica and 79 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 2: Saint Vincent of the Grandians throughout the seventeenth century. You know, 80 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 2: there's this narrative that the Europeans came and they just 81 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 2: easily conquered the entirety of the Americas, and it's important 82 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 2: to lay that myth to rest. There was, of course 83 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 2: a very tragic great dyeing that was responsible for a 84 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 2: vast majority the indigenous population losing their lives to the disease, 85 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 2: in some cases intentionally weaponized by the Europeans. But despite 86 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 2: differences in their weaponry, the Europeans didn't have an easy 87 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:15,359 Speaker 2: time conquering the islands, or conquering the Americans at all. 88 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 2: In many cases, they did not succeed in Conqune Islands 89 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 2: for many decades or centuries of struggle, but eventually Crenado 90 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 2: was established as a colony of over fifteen thousand slaved 91 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 2: Africans by seventeen sixty three. A year prior, in seventeen 92 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 2: sixty two, Britain took over the island from the French 93 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 2: as part of the Seven Years' War, and the island 94 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 2: was formally ceded to Britain in seventeen sixty three. By 95 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,159 Speaker 2: eighteen oh seven, Britain had brought one hundred and fourteen 96 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 2: thousand slaves to Grenado. By eighteen thirty eight, slavery was abolished. 97 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 2: In eighteen seventy seven, Grenada became a Crown colony and 98 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 2: fast forward a little further under modified Crown colony status, 99 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 2: the wealthiest four percent of Canadians were allowed to vote. 100 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:05,720 Speaker 2: Eric Geary founded the Grenada United Labor Party or GULP 101 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 2: in nineteen fifty initially as a trade union, which led 102 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 2: to the nineteen fifty one General Strike for better working conditions. 103 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 2: Buildings were set on fire in this time, and this 104 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 2: is in a broader regional context of radicalism and agitation 105 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 2: for independence in the post World War II reality, which 106 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 2: would intensify after many of the islands had already gained 107 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 2: the independence. Eventually, Grenada got elections based on universal adult 108 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:39,039 Speaker 2: suffrage in nineteen fifty one and Eric Gary's party GULP one. 109 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 2: This is before they got independence, though, in a time 110 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 2: when the English speaking Caribbean was trying to establish a 111 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 2: West Indies Federation between nineteen fifty eight and nineteen sixty two. 112 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 2: It didn't succeed. Jamaica seceeded, and then Trinidad, so it 113 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 2: fell apart, and after the fall of the federation, Grenada 114 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 2: became an associated state in nineteen sixty seven, then finally 115 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 2: gained full independence from Britain in nineteen seventy four, again 116 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 2: under the leadership of Eric Garry. Who became the first 117 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 2: Prime Minister of Grenada. The late sixties and early seventies 118 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 2: were a radical time in general, so that's set in 119 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 2: the stage for what comes next in Grenada, the rise 120 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 2: of the New Jewel movement led by Maurice Bishop. You see, 121 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 2: as Fundi found. In this time, we also had quite 122 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 2: a few other confrontations going on across the Spanaphone, Francophone, 123 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 2: Dutch of Phone and Anglophone Caribbeans. In nineteen sixty five, 124 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 2: you had the popular revolt in the Dominican Republic against 125 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 2: the military coup that was drowned in blood by the 126 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 2: US invasion. In nineteen sixty seven, you had a spontaneous 127 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 2: rebellion of agricultural workers in Guadelup. Nineteen sixty eight, black 128 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 2: folks in Bermuda rioted against the racist and clueless control 129 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 2: it dominated the island. In nineteen sixty nine, there was 130 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 2: a violent confrontation against US soldiers by students and workers 131 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 2: protesting the US occupation of the Panama Canal Zone. Kurisa 132 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 2: was shaken by wildcatch strikes of workers, riots by employed 133 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 2: and unemployed as well. Labor unrest was breaking out in Surinam, 134 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 2: leading to general strike an Tiger had riots, strikes, and 135 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 2: demonstrations over several years. Jamaica had workers at the Western 136 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 2: Meatpackers established democratic control of their trade union local, taking 137 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 2: full control over their union dues and negotiating their employer 138 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 2: without official mediators to manage the sugar workers and the 139 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 2: local community directly and of course infamously. In nineteen seventy, 140 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 2: Trinad was shaken up as workers, academics and small farmers 141 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 2: linked up against the system led by the government of 142 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 2: Prime Minister Eric Williams, and after years of his rule 143 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 2: under the Sloga and Massa they done. The people erupted 144 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 2: against the newoor colonial system. Despite being ruled by this 145 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,679 Speaker 2: black leader, the hundreds of people in the streets championed 146 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 2: black power, understanding what was needed was a people's politics 147 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 2: in which new institutions could emerge. This black power revolution 148 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 2: in Trondad was inspired in part by the black civil 149 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 2: rights struggle in the United States, while also seeking into 150 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 2: night the African and Indian populations in Tronad. After an 151 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 2: attempted mutiny by the army and Venezuela and American gun 152 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 2: boats standing by raid intervene, the military surrendered. The revolutionary 153 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 2: initiative shifted away from the masses and doctor Derk Williams 154 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 2: was saved. By nineteen seventy three, a few armed gorillas 155 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 2: remained in the hills of Trinidad, but eventually their struggle 156 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 2: was snuffed out. By nineteen seventy five in Guadeloupe had 157 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:44,319 Speaker 2: wildcat strikes taking place. Guyana had wildcatch strikes against the 158 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 2: American and Canadian owned Boux side companies. Surinam had another 159 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 2: general strike. Saint Lucia experience with wildcat strike. Dominica attempted 160 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 2: to seize the British owned Castle brus estates. In Jamaica, 161 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 2: there was a wave of appropriation from banks, warehouses, stores, 162 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 2: batting shops and more cross Kingston and demonstrations initiated by 163 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 2: students and workers against police brutality and for the release 164 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 2: of prisoners. And in nineteen seventy nine Nicaragua had their 165 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 2: revolution against the US Allied government. While all of this 166 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 2: is going on, Grenada had a population of less than 167 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 2: one hundred thousand people. It had just become independent under 168 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 2: Eric Geary and Erek Garry is an interesting fella because 169 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 2: you'll see some aspects of him mirrored later on. He 170 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 2: came to power in nineteen fifty one with the wave 171 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 2: of universal suffrage. He was twenty nine years all at 172 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 2: the time. He had previously been a worker organizer in 173 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 2: Aruba and was expelled from the island for that very reason. 174 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 2: He spent deca in politics as a champion of agricultural workers. 175 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 2: But younger generations were not as excited about him. They 176 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 2: recognized his financial corruption, his penchant for rigged elections, and 177 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 2: of course his use of secret police that were repressive 178 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 2: to the people. So as creators making steps towards becoming independent, 179 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 2: the people did not want him to be the leader 180 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 2: of independence. There were strikes against him even before the revolution. 181 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,079 Speaker 2: But see Gary was karen on this tradition that was 182 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 2: set up by the British. Whether he knew it or not, 183 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 2: he and may have had this radical start as a 184 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 2: worker organizer, but he came to carry on colonial interests. 185 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 2: You know. He started off as a union man, but 186 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 2: he turned against the workers, and even the British at 187 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,359 Speaker 2: one point had been scared of him as an organizer 188 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 2: and had trepidations about him as an independent leader, but 189 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 2: they still chose him and prefer him at the risk 190 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 2: of maybe a more radical version of him leading an 191 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 2: independent Grenader, and then came the New Duel Movement. Now 192 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 2: the New Duel Movement is actually a combination of two groups. 193 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 2: You had the Movement for Assemblies of the People, which 194 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 2: was founded by Maurice Bishop, a lawyer who had studied 195 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 2: in Britain. And you had the Joint Endeavor for Welfare, 196 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 2: Education and Liberation or JEWEL, which is founded by Howard 197 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 2: University economic student Unison Whitman. They were also joined by 198 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 2: Bernard Cord, an economics lecturer at UIs in Augustin in Trinandobago. 199 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 2: So at first, in terms of their politics, they really 200 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 2: wanted popular assemblies and that sort of thing. But actually 201 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 2: let me get into the background of the Caribbean left. 202 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:52,079 Speaker 2: You see, in the nineteen fifties there was an upheaval. 203 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 2: You know, radicals had been shifting from the sort of 204 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 2: Stalinism that had become popular in the post War two 205 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 2: era towards a more critical sort of Trotskyism or Maoism. Yeah. 206 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 2: See Lar James and George pat Moore, both based in London, 207 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 2: were already advocate in independence for Africa and the Caribbean, 208 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 2: rejecting the Styalinist idea that liberation should wait until after 209 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 2: World Ward two. 210 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 1: See. 211 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 2: Lar James is an interesting figure politically to me because 212 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 2: while he was ostensibly a Trotskyist, he was in many 213 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 2: ways unorthodox in his approach to those politics. 214 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, Celar James's book Trying to Remember, it's called Beyond 215 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 3: a Boundary or Beyond the Boundary. 216 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:37,439 Speaker 2: Beyond the Boundary. 217 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:38,839 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a great book. 218 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 3: To the only book about cricket that I've ever read, 219 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 3: and that's the only one that I've ever enjoyed. Not 220 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 3: a big cricket appreciate it, but as a sports historian 221 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 3: that that book was foundational to like how how I 222 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 3: approached my dissertation, and like as such, I've always had 223 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,679 Speaker 3: a really like a soft spot for him as someone 224 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 3: who did sports living in academia for a living. I 225 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 3: saw like a really positive example of the role that 226 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 3: both of those can play in like liberation struggles in 227 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 3: his writing. Yeah, Yeah, it's when I'd encourage everyone to 228 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 3: read if you're looking for a book. It's like his 229 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 3: writing is very readable, in his historical writing, like which 230 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 3: I at the time of my life, when I was 231 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 3: in grad school, I very much appreciated someone who wrote 232 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 3: something that wasn't like self consciously trying to be dense 233 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 3: and impenetrable to make them seem intelligent. Like face, his 234 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 3: intelligence comes through just fine. 235 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 2: Indeed, indeed, I've had a soft spot for him as 236 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 2: well for some time, particularly after reading The Black Yakabins. 237 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, he used to assign that one alone. 238 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 2: And I would say that the Tribean left at the 239 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 2: time also had a bit of a soft spot for 240 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 2: him because they were heavily influenced by his writings. Yeah, 241 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 2: you know, in his nineteen fifty six pamphlet Face and Reality, 242 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 2: which is about the Hungarian Revolution, ended up becoming a 243 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 2: profound influence on Western Ian radicals, as it had revealed 244 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 2: the potential of workers' councils and done a lot to 245 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 2: expose the authoritarianism of the Soviet model. This is something 246 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 2: that Bundy wrote about and highlighted as he's given his 247 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 2: sort of discussion of the origins and trajectory of the 248 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 2: Caribbean left. So in the nineteen sixties and seventies, radical 249 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:27,239 Speaker 2: thought across the Caribbean was shaped by these more democratic 250 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 2: socialist ideals. Ye had movements like Jamaica's Young Socialist League, 251 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 2: Trindad's New Beginning Movement and Creator's New Jewel movements. They 252 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 2: were all inspired by James and by grassroots workers councils 253 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 2: rather than the typical Soviet orthodoxy. Of course, the Caribbean 254 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 2: left was not immune to conflict or division. There were 255 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 2: conflicts between those who were more loyal to stylists or 256 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 2: pro Soviet positions, and that led to some splits within 257 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 2: unions and political movements. Now, initially the Neutral Movement was 258 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 2: leaning in that participatory democratic direction, but eventually they ended 259 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 2: up going in to studying Marxism Leninism more not really 260 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 2: at first they mainly wanted Gary out, but later they 261 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 2: went into Marxism Leninism and transformed the movement into a 262 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 2: proper political party of the vanguard variety in an effort 263 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 2: to unseat Geary. They started building some momentum and immediately 264 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 2: based consequences. In nineteen seventy three, Bishop Whiteman and others 265 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 2: got beaten up and arrested by Gary's secret police multiple times. 266 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 2: Bishop's own father was shot and killed by Gary's forces, 267 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 2: and the high schoolers that were also taking a stand 268 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 2: against Gary at the time were facing repression and violence. Now, 269 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 2: with nineteen seventy four, independence was one, but sadly under 270 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 2: Gary and his notorious secret police, which were by the way, 271 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 2: called the Mongoose Gang. Now there was already suspicions of 272 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 2: potential election fraud, and it wasn't helped by the fact 273 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:13,439 Speaker 2: that his Mongoose Gang was known to intimidate people. But 274 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy six, despite this for a political landscape, 275 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,880 Speaker 2: Bishop won a leadership role as opposition and became known 276 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,360 Speaker 2: across the country in our country as small as as Grenader, 277 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 2: as someone charismatic, personable, relatable. The New Dual Movement started 278 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 2: to build a reputation for being connected to the people, 279 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 2: engage with students, engage with pro bono work. In some cases, 280 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 2: as I mentioned, some of them were lawyers, and they 281 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 2: were youthful. They were bringing a youthful energy to the 282 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 2: sort of old god colonial era politics of Erik Garry 283 00:17:48,640 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 2: and his ILK. So the story of how the New 284 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 2: Dual Movement came into power is actually a bit humorous 285 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 2: to me. On the thirteenth of March nineteen seventy nine, 286 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 2: Gary went to the UN meeting in New York that 287 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 2: was happening at the time, and as the saying goes, 288 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 2: when the cat's away, the mice will play. In this case, 289 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 2: while the cat was away, the New Dual Movement pulled 290 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 2: off a coup, a completely bloodless coup. They took control 291 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,120 Speaker 2: of the army barracks and the radio. When they went 292 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 2: on the radio, and this is the funny part to me, 293 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 2: they told people to go to police stations and demand 294 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 2: that they put up white flags of surrender. And the 295 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 2: population was so anti Gary that they did it. They 296 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 2: just walked up in civilization. So they're like, yeah, put 297 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 2: up these white flags, and the police shaid, yeah, sure, 298 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 2: that was that. That's how the New Jeal movement came 299 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 2: into power. 300 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, And this is such a fascinating time in history, right, 301 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 3: Like they used to teach a class about culturing colonialism 302 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 3: back in the day, and we would talk a lot 303 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 3: about like this time period, like the post wind Rush 304 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 3: period where like Caribbean political culture was very influential even 305 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 3: in the metropol right in Britain specifically, Like this is 306 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 3: when we have like sca music and then punk music 307 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:23,439 Speaker 3: arriving from that, which is a serious political force in 308 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 3: a twentieth century. Like it's easy for people to sniff 309 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 3: at that or whatever, but and that's the reason I 310 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 3: am the way I am so like, I guess I 311 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 3: have a fondness for it, but also like the state's 312 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:42,199 Speaker 3: capacity for violence and surveillance hasn't caught up to the 313 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 3: capacity for mass communication yet, and so you have these 314 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 3: movements which can mobilize a ton of people and the 315 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:54,640 Speaker 3: state isn't like all up in them with informers and like, 316 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 3: it can either respond as a Soviet Union did in 317 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 3: Hungary right with tanks that's where we get the word 318 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 3: tanky from, or it can crumble like by people turning 319 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:06,640 Speaker 3: up and turn of the cops to surrender. 320 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 2: Like. 321 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 3: It's just a fascinating, like little to three decade period 322 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 3: in history before the state, I guess recovers its advantage 323 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,360 Speaker 3: in terms of violence and surveillance. Yeah. 324 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 2: I marvel at this time because I mean they didn't 325 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 2: have this social media and stuff to connect people and 326 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 2: you know, advertise they we're having this this protest or 327 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 2: this action or this whatever. Yeah, but the networks were 328 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 2: still there, you know, they were organic, and they were 329 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 2: motivated by a genuine sense that a seriative was actionable. Yeah, 330 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 2: you know, I think we have this sort of twenty 331 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:52,959 Speaker 2: first century Malays of cynicism. It's like that was tried before, 332 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, every time we look at something, we 333 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 2: can say, oh, that was tried before and they failed. 334 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 2: When we look back at history, people who try those things, 335 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 2: they didn't know if it was going to work out 336 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 2: or not. They just tried it. I wouldn't be surprised 337 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 2: if I was a fly on the wall on the 338 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 2: day of the school if the neudual movement guys were 339 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,440 Speaker 2: just like, wait, what that actually works? 340 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, Like. 341 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 2: Not to take away from their plan and an organization 342 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 2: and you know, the genuine grassroots support that they had. 343 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 2: It's still a swing. 344 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, totally. 345 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 3: At some point you have to like roll the dice 346 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 3: right and see how it goes, Like in this case. 347 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 2: The roles of critical success, I'd. 348 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 3: Say, yeah, yeah, it's a natural twenty Yeah, the Dragon's term. 349 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 4: So I'd really like to let it out. 350 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 3: In this period, this is like the heyday of pirate radio, right, 351 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 3: where you have people broadcasting but like outside of sake control, 352 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 3: and it's a really interesting time for culture and music. 353 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 3: Like scar music explicitly explicitly begins in an anti racist way, right, 354 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 3: like it calls itself two tone of music. Because bands 355 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:05,679 Speaker 3: were often look multi racial, and it's really interesting that 356 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 3: we have this whole cultural movement which owes a lot 357 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 3: to the wind Rush generation. But like you said, it's 358 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 3: questioning the both capitalists and also Marxist orthodoxies in a 359 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 3: way that I know, but I really wish. I mean 360 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 3: a lot of people do today, don't get me wrong, 361 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 3: but I wonder if we could tell those people now 362 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 3: that you'd have people who were like dedicated vanguard Marxists. Again, 363 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 3: like you know, it just seems a sad noise. 364 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think we could say the same 365 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 2: thing about a lot of people's current politics. I'm sure 366 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 2: if you went back in the past and we're like, 367 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 2: you know, people are actually trying to be troadwives right 368 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 2: now twenty five. You want to talk to the woman 369 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 2: who had like no ability to open a bank account 370 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 2: and we're trying to escape financial abuse, to rest abuse, 371 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 2: all these different things, and they're like, oh, you know, 372 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:04,880 Speaker 2: there's actually a whole internet a trend of like, yeah, 373 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 2: your husband should control all your finances. Actually yeah, I mean, 374 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 2: of course that kind of sentiment never went away, but 375 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 2: it's popularization definitely debunks I think this sort of notion 376 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:20,400 Speaker 2: that that progress quote unquote is something that is inevitable 377 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:21,400 Speaker 2: or irreversible. 378 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,479 Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, Yeah, that's right. I mean you can even 379 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,120 Speaker 3: travel across the world and share that. I can only 380 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,640 Speaker 3: imagine how that would be received in Russia. Ava right 381 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 3: to tell the friends in the women's movement that there 382 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,679 Speaker 3: are Western women who aspire to be tradwives. I mean, 383 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,640 Speaker 3: I'm sure they're aware they have the Internet, but yeah, 384 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 3: it's certainly Yeah, this idea that we can only progress 385 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 3: or move in one duration. 386 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's how the New Droal movement came into power, 387 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 2: and upon getting to that position, they established the People's 388 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 2: Revolutionary Government or PRG, which is led now by the 389 00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 2: Prime Minister of Grenader, Maurice Bishop. They were considered legitimate, 390 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 2: of course, because they did have the people's mandate, but 391 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 2: they opted not to solidify that legitimacy with an election, 392 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 2: and they also went on to ban other parties. So 393 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 2: in the next episode, I want to get into what 394 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 2: exactly they did when they were in power in broad strokes, 395 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 2: all their hits and misses with the economy and politics 396 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 2: over the course of their four years, and how it 397 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 2: culminated in an internal split, multiple killings and a US invasion. 398 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:37,959 Speaker 2: But if you want the details and how all that 399 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,360 Speaker 2: played out, you'll have to tune in. Next time. We'll 400 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 2: get into the outcome of the PRG, the flaws, the revolution, 401 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 2: its downfall, and where Grenda stands today. But before we 402 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,959 Speaker 2: wrap up any final thoughts, James. 403 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 4: I feel okay, Yeah, I just had lots of them. 404 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:55,439 Speaker 4: I don't know. 405 00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is a fascinating period and like now, as 406 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,920 Speaker 3: much as there ever has been, it's a vital time 407 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 3: for us to study this Rightly, As a person who's 408 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 3: taught in American schools and universities, this one doesn't come 409 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 3: up very much. It's certainly not like in the required 410 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,880 Speaker 3: teaching syllabi in anywhere that I've taught. And I think 411 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 3: as we return to like Monroe Doctrine two point zero 412 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 3: or whatever whatever we're doing the United States, it's doing 413 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 3: in the Western hemisphere right now, it's vital to understand 414 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 3: the role it has played in suppressing progressive political movements 415 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 3: in the last century. 416 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you know, as you mentioned, there's already 417 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 2: in the typical history and historical accounts that it's taught 418 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 2: to students. It's just I think I'm marveled sometimes at 419 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 2: you know, that's that's exactly how empire functions. Yeah, you know, 420 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 2: the acts forgets what the true remembers is the female 421 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 2: say it so something like the US's operations and Grenado 422 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 2: or anywhere else in the world, in all the many 423 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 2: places they have intervened. I may not even muster a 424 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 2: passing mentionure and a centerence e one in a historical class, 425 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 2: in a history class the United States, and yet it 426 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 2: is pivotal to the histories and self identities up to 427 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 2: the present day of entire regions and people's You know, 428 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 2: it may be a footnote if so much in these 429 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,679 Speaker 2: started curriculums in the United States. But it's one of 430 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 2: the most recent and raw incidents of violence and traumas 431 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,719 Speaker 2: take place in the Caribbean. Yeah, absolutely, and they're not 432 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 2: independent history. 433 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 4: Yeah. 434 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 3: When Trump was first assuming office this time, there was 435 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 3: a brief moment when they were talking about returning to 436 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 3: colonizing Panama. If you can cast your mind that far back. 437 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 2: He has flooded the zone quite successfully. But I do 438 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 2: recall that. 439 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,199 Speaker 3: But yeah, I had been in Panama two months before that, 440 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 3: and I think the United States large portion of the 441 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 3: population either doesn't know or has forgotten that, like independence 442 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 3: from American sort of neo colonialism is integral to Panamanian identity. Like, 443 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,880 Speaker 3: I don't think they'd realized quite how unwilling to accept 444 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 3: going back to that Panamanian people were. 445 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a long struggle, yes, to eke out independence. 446 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 2: I mean even now there's you know, us new cleanism 447 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 2: is alive and well in Panama in many ways. Yeah, 448 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 2: but what gains they have Yain is you know, something 449 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 2: they're not willing to lose. 450 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, And yeah, I mean the United States supports 451 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,439 Speaker 3: people through Panama. The Biden administration sent its Secretary of 452 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 3: Homeland Security to the inauguration of the Panamanian president. The 453 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 3: US funds Panamanian deportations did under the Biden administration, including 454 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 3: of people who have no criminal record, Like we have 455 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 3: effectively externalized our border regime to Panama in the way 456 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 3: that we've also done to the Dominican Republic and Haiti. Right, Like, 457 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 3: I guess what I'm saying is I don't want people 458 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 3: to think that this is a one off that like 459 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:15,640 Speaker 3: either the Trump stuff is a massive leap from previous policy. 460 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 3: It's a change in scale, not in kind. Or that 461 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 3: that you know, the United States hasn't done this before, 462 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 3: and that has some history of doing this in the 463 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:24,919 Speaker 3: Western hemisphere. 464 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 2: Indeed, so on that rather depressing notes. Yeah, well, we'll 465 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,439 Speaker 2: leave it here for it could happen here, but you 466 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,680 Speaker 2: can join us for the next episode when we will 467 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 2: get into exactly what took place in Grenada and where 468 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 2: Grenada stands today. So then, or power to all the 469 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 2: people peace. 470 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 1: It could happen here is a production of cool Zone Media. 471 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: From More podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 472 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 1: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 473 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 474 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 1: You can now find sources for it could Happen here 475 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.