1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:12,040 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Lewis and Otis and wore 2 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: kneeling and Riley was standing facing Bomb with his hands 3 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 1: tied behind his back. Riley asked if he could kiss 4 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: his girlfriend, and then Greezy said, Nolan, she started crying, 5 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 1: you're hearing our friends at ABC four. That is Marcus Ortiz. 6 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: What we know now is a Utah man forty one 7 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: accused of fatally stabbing two teams and dumping their bodies 8 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: in a mine, admitting he made one of them watch 9 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: as the other suffered. Listen. Then she says Bomb appeared 10 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 1: to be attacking Powell as they were standing next to 11 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: each other. Harry Riley say, I'm dying and he was gurgling, 12 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: and that's when I realized that he wasn't hitting Riley, 13 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: he was stabbing Riley. It was the most horrible sound 14 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: I've ever heard. Then it was Adison's turn, as Bob 15 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: walked behind her. Thought she remained tied up and it 16 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:05,119 Speaker 1: seemed like he had his arms around her, but I'm 17 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: not sure. And he said it's okay, darling, and he 18 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: went to her, and then I felt warms on my leg. Okay, 19 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: And what did you perceive at that point it was 20 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:20,960 Speaker 1: her bud. Lewis says she saw Bomb Tosspowa's body into 21 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: the mine. Austin was next, but her life was spared. 22 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: He's got this huge grin on his face like he's 23 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: enjoying himself, and he was. He did later he laughed 24 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: about it. He said that was like lambs to the sladder. 25 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 1: They didn't even fight. Lewis says she felt threatened that 26 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: she too would be murdered by Bomb if she told police, 27 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: but later on she felt guilt and wanted closure for 28 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: the families. I mean, I see grace. This is crime Stories. 29 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. To Robin Willinski, crime 30 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: online dot Com investigative reporter, author of Beautiful Life, the 31 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: CSI behind the Case, he hath any trial, Robin, what happened? Well, 32 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: this is beyond belief that actually this guy, Gerard Baum, 33 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: the forty one year old, they say that he's a Nazi. 34 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 1: He has this large swastika that is visible on his 35 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 1: check when you look at him, Nancy, straight on, kind 36 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: of in the nape of your neck where you would 37 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: wear a necklace. He's got a tattoo of a swastika, 38 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: and then he's got a smaller one on his face, 39 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:27,119 Speaker 1: on his face, And isn't this what the Nazis did 40 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: in Nazi Germany, you know, shooting Jews and some Christians 41 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 1: and just throwing them into their graves. That's what it's 42 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 1: reminiscent of to me. And that's what went down here 43 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 1: with these two teens, seventeen and eighteen years old. And 44 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 1: there was a report that the girl, the seventeen year old, 45 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: may have even been pregnant and still kills her and 46 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 1: throws her into the mind too, all in front of 47 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 1: his girlfriend who did nothing. I'm talking about suspect Jared Baum, 48 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: the victim's Braylon Addison, seventeen, and her teen boyfriend Riley Powell. 49 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: To doctor Michelle Dupree, South Carolina Medical examine or author 50 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: of Homicide Investigation Field Guide, Doctor Dupree, how would we 51 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,399 Speaker 1: know if Morgan was in fact pregnant at the time 52 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 1: of her murder? Yes, ask you, well, as you know, 53 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 1: we would do an autopsy because of the nature of death, 54 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: and in doing that autopsy could do a complete autopsy. 55 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 1: So we would investigate whether or not she was actually 56 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: pregnant and make that determination and include that finding in 57 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 1: the autopsy report. Well, what we know now is that 58 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: two teens dead. And did you say, Robin Lensky that 59 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: hit their bodies were thrown down a mine. Yes, if 60 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: you can believe this that he pushed after he killed 61 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: both of them, Allegedly he pushed both of them down 62 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: a mind and they were found a hundred feet down. 63 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: This is in Utah, where there are many minds, deep 64 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: minds like this. They were missing for ninety I don't 65 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: understand to aske you Wolcott joining me jeven I'll judge lawyer, 66 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: you can find her, asked Wolcott dot com. How the 67 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: girlfriend managed to stay quiet and not say anything? You know, 68 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: That's what's astounding to me. This one just two teens. 69 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 1: I can't even imagine how a even if she fears 70 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 1: her life, why wouldn't she try to get involved before 71 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: he actually kills them instead of fearing her life and 72 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: going along with it. B Once she realizes I'm not 73 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 1: going to be killed? How do you sit quiet on that? 74 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,600 Speaker 1: It doesn't make sense to me. It happens more frequently 75 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: with horrific crimes than I'd like to believe. It doesn't 76 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,279 Speaker 1: make sense. But on the other hand, Nancy, thank gosh, 77 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: she came forward, so we know what happened. Dude, Robert 78 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:49,039 Speaker 1: will Lensky, what do we know about a potential motive 79 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:51,719 Speaker 1: in the case. Yeah, that's the interesting part. When you 80 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: hear something that's horrendous, you know what set him off? Well, 81 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:02,919 Speaker 1: the investigation shows Nancy that the girlfriend, Morgan Lewis, apparently 82 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: had these two over the house and they were allegedly 83 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: to smoking some weed, smoking some pots, and he was 84 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: apparently a very controlling personality and didn't want her smoking 85 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: pot or not smoking pot with these two, didn't want 86 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 1: her talking to other men. So Riley who's eighteen, and 87 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: then you had Breezy who's seventeen, and he doesn't want 88 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: them in the house, doesn't want them smoking pot. But 89 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: does that mean you go and kill them? Well, what 90 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: about asking them to leave? What about that possibility? Ashley 91 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: Wilcot judge lawyer Ashley Wilcot dot com. What about it? 92 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: Why not just say hey, guys, you gotta go home. Well, 93 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: that's attributing rational thought to someone and that's exactly what 94 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,600 Speaker 1: should have happened. That's what happens probably ninety nine percent 95 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: of the time. But then you have someone like this 96 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 1: who's going to engage in this level of criminal activity. 97 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,359 Speaker 1: He's got a screw loose. My word, nobody else's, but 98 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 1: he should never ever see the light of day again. 99 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: Right now, this is all unfolding in a preliminary hearing 100 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: in court. Take a listen to what the family members 101 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: are learning in court for the very first time. This 102 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: is the first time Breezie and Riley's family heard Lewis 103 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: recount those moments in details behind what what happened to Riley, 104 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: I know that was that was a hard foe to swallow, 105 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 1: and what happened to Riley, it just looks to me 106 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: like he was in some sort of fit of rage 107 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,479 Speaker 1: or whatever. Again when she said, he was smiling and 108 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 1: like he enjoyed it. At this point, they say this 109 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: isn't about closure in the death of the two teens. 110 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: They just hope for justice. We know that him being 111 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: tried and hopefully the death penalty coming that it's not 112 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 1: going to be it's not never going to give us 113 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: a piece that we're looking for, but at least it 114 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: gives validation that we're going to fight and we're going 115 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: to fight for the kids, and it's that's all we 116 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: can do at this point, is fighting there on. Our 117 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 1: bomb faces eight charges in the deaths of Brezie and Riley, 118 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: including aggravated murder and aggravated kidnapping. You're hearing our friend 119 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 1: with Box thirteen Utah reporter Larrence Steinbrecker terrible, terrible to 120 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: hear this playing out in a court of law. Now, 121 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: for me, Ashley, I would never have wanted, if I 122 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: were the defense, a preliminary hearing, because all of this 123 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: gets out into the public and juries here about it. 124 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: They'll later be put on the actual jury. But if 125 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: you do a preliminary hearing, you remember the one in O. J. 126 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: Simpson about jumping over the fence and doing the search 127 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 1: of the home, You, the defense, get a chance to 128 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: cross examin the state's witness before there's ever a jury trial, 129 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: because a state bears the burden at a preliminary hearing. 130 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: A preliminary is just really, is there enough evidence for 131 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: this to go forward to a felony jury? That's right, Nancy. 132 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 1: So the whole reason is a defense attorney. I've never 133 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: been a defense attorney, but I'm very close with many 134 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: who are. I've done lots of trial coverage. Is exactly 135 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: what you said, if its defense, you want to quote 136 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: unquote free look at the evidence to see exactly what 137 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: they're going to present a preliminary and an opportunity across 138 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: just like you said, that's exactly why the defense is 139 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: going to do it. I believe they did it in 140 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: this case because they want to They want to force 141 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: the prosecution to show their hand. The biggest witness of 142 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: the afternoon was Morgan Lewis, and this is the first 143 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: time that the public was hearing directly from her what 144 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: happened that night that Breezy and Riley died. As the 145 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: prosecution laid out their evidence against Jared Baumb, they called 146 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: up family members, detectives in the case, and a medical 147 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: examiner who explained the pair died of blunt force trauma 148 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: and stab wounds, including right across the neck. Then Bomb's 149 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: girlfriend explained what unfolded after midnight on December thirtieth, twenty seventeen. 150 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 1: Jared told me to get in the car, and I 151 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: felt I was scared and I listened to him. Morgan Lewis, 152 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: formerly Morgan Henderson, testified for three hours. She said Bomb 153 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: came home to find Riley and Breezy had visited Lewis, 154 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: which made him mad. I knew that something bad was happening, 155 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: it just didn't feel it was in a normal situation. 156 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 1: Lewis explained, Bomb drove them to a mine near Eureka. 157 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,959 Speaker 1: Breezy and Riley tied up with duct tape over their mouths. 158 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: She said, Bomb started to hit Riley near the open mine. 159 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 1: I heard Riley say I'm dying, and he was gurgling, 160 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: and that's when I realized that he wasn't hitting Riley. 161 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: He was stabbing Riley. He knelt down behind Breezy and 162 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:21,319 Speaker 1: he took her in his arms and he said, it's okay, Darlin, 163 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: and he looked like he was rocking her. Bluish says 164 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:29,079 Speaker 1: at that moment, Bomb killed Breezy, then threw both bodies 165 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 1: in the mind, I almost feel sick. I remember this 166 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 1: feeling from court when I'm good be trying cases or 167 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: investigating cases. The level of cruelty, of depravity, it's just 168 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: overwhelming to me sometimes. And I remember that often in 169 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: the trial when we would the jury would want a break, 170 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 1: I would of course never ask for a break, but 171 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: if the jury took a break, I would go into 172 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: the lighties bathroom far away from the courtroom. I'd even 173 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: go to a different floor. I'd go in the furthest 174 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: stall and just cry. And I remember during jury trials, 175 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: I couldn't eat a thing ever, I would be so 176 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 1: upset to my stomach that I just these details are 177 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: so upsetting. We are in the middle of a preliminary 178 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: hearing regarding suspect Jared J. E. R R O. D. 179 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 1: Bomb be as a brother au M and the victims 180 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: are teens. There's just a couple of years older than 181 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 1: my children that are my world. And to hear them 182 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:45,559 Speaker 1: slaughtered like this, and Bomb laughs about how they quote 183 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: didn't even fight back like lambs to the slaughter. I 184 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,439 Speaker 1: mean doctor Bethany Marshall. Now we're hearing he's got the 185 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 1: tattoo the swastika on his chest and another one on 186 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: his face. It just I'm just overwhelmed, Bey and Nancy. 187 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 1: One detail is that he cradled the teenage girl and 188 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: called her sweetheart as he was slitting her throat. It 189 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: reminds me of what we read about sociopathy in the literature, 190 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: that there is a charming, a superficial, charming exterior that 191 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:25,199 Speaker 1: hides a cold, calculated interior. And I think what may 192 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: have happened here is that bomb is one of these 193 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: men who just wanted to kill. He probably had been 194 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: thinking about it for a long long time. He fits 195 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 1: the profile of somebody who wants to do what we 196 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: call a thrill kill, meaning just the thrill of slitting 197 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: somebody's throat is something that excites him and captivates him. 198 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: And he comes home and these two teenagers are hanging 199 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: out with his girlfriend, smoking pot, and there it was. 200 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: There was this opportunity, Nancy. They could have been coming 201 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: in and out of his house for a long long 202 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: time while he plotted and planned. I don't think of 203 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,199 Speaker 1: this as simply that he was jealous that they were 204 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: hanging out with his girlfriend. I think he was thinking 205 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:07,839 Speaker 1: about this for a long time, and finally he had 206 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 1: his chance, you know, To Robin Wilenski, who is covering 207 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: the case with me, doctor Michelle Dupree, South Carolina medical examiner, 208 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:21,079 Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall, PSYCHOALIS out of California, Karen Smith, forensics expert, 209 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: Ashley Wilcott, judge lawyer at Ashley Wilcott dot com, and 210 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: Robin Wilensky crime on Line reporter to Karen Smith, forensics 211 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:36,079 Speaker 1: expert throwing the bodies down a mine. Now my question 212 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: do you would be how do you get forensics off 213 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,079 Speaker 1: a body that has been down a mine? Now this 214 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:45,199 Speaker 1: is in Utah, so I don't know that there was 215 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: water in the bottom of the mine at all. I 216 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: assume that it was dry. I don't know. And you 217 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: know what my mind has been spinning with that question. 218 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: You know, my job description includes flying in helicopters, shore 219 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: going out in boats. Sure we do that too, but 220 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: you know, splunking down a mine shaft was not in 221 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: my job description. And I really don't know where I 222 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 1: would begin with something like this. How do you take photographs? 223 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: How do you collect evidence when you're in a harness? 224 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: I have no idea. Apparently, according to the the reports, they 225 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: were about one hundred feet down on a ledge. I 226 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 1: don't know what that means. I don't know what it 227 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: looked like. And our job is forensic investigators, is to 228 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 1: collect everything in its most Christine manner possible, especially for 229 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: the medical examiner to do their their findings. I don't 230 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,319 Speaker 1: know how I would do something like that, Nancy, that's crazy, Yeah, 231 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:34,559 Speaker 1: it's And if you don't know, I don't know who 232 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 1: would know. And doctor Michelle Dupree, South Carolina medical examiner, 233 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. I guess they sent 234 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: CSI Crimes and investigators down with harnesses to get the bodies, 235 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: decomposing bodies and bring them up after Bob's girlfriend, Morgan 236 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: Lewis finally comes clean and tells cops what happened. How 237 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 1: do you go about putting all those bones back together, 238 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: doctor Dupree? And trying to get physical lotus, And keep 239 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: in mind that this guy Jared Baum said that quote 240 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,559 Speaker 1: he felt bad because he never had to kill an 241 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: innocent before. I want you to percolate on that, Bethany Marshall. 242 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: He never had to kill an innocent before number one, 243 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: suggesting there were other people he had to kill that 244 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: were not innocence, and his compulsion that he had to 245 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: do it why because they were over to his home uninvited. 246 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: Back to you, doctor Dupree, while doctor Bethany Marshall percolates 247 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: on that question, Doctor Dupree, how do you put all 248 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: those bones back together again? Actually, Nancy, as a medical examiner, 249 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: we do go to the scene of the crime. We 250 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: would be the ones in the harness going down that 251 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: ravine or going down in that well to Colessa Evidence 252 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: and collecsa body. It is difficult. I have propelled down 253 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: the sides of cliffs and mountains and things like that 254 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: to retrieve bodies before. And yes, we take a clean bag, 255 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: we take a clean sheet, and we try to collect 256 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: as much evidence that as surrounding the body as possible 257 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: to get it back up to a place where we 258 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 1: can then examine it and collect the evidence. As far 259 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: as putting the bones back together, we simply laid them 260 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: out on the table and you'd be surprised. It's not 261 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 1: that difficult, especially when you have a body that has 262 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: been tossed over a cliff and not dismembered, so to speak. Well, 263 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: doctor j pretty not difficult for you, difficult for me 264 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 1: to even think about it, Doctor Duprey. I was thinking 265 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: back on Kelly Anthony and how they were searching for 266 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: all of her bones and they worked around the clock 267 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: under a tent under bright lights at night. There are 268 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 1: two hundred how many bones are in the body, and 269 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: you certainly rattle that off the tip of your tongue. 270 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: I'm just thinking about how detectives sound out about this. Apparently, 271 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: Robin Willinski, they found a Facebook conversation between Riley and Henderson, 272 00:15:54,440 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: and that led them to be suspicious. You know, down 273 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: to doctor Bethanie Marshall, is that Lewis Morgan Lewis, the 274 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: girlfriend of this Nazi freak, got pulled over speeding and 275 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: just like spilled her guts. That's how they found everything out. Nancy, 276 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: she sat on this for a long time. She did 277 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: not go to the police. Apparently became despondent, suicidal. She 278 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: was in her car with an axe, I think a 279 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: knife rope. Apparently she was going to go to the desert, 280 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 1: take mushrooms and kill herself. I don't know if I 281 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: believe that story or she was simply speeding, but she 282 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: was pulled over and then she yeah, she spilled her guts, 283 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: told the police that she was tired of listening to that. 284 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: The families kept searching for these teenagers unsuccessfully. You know, Nancy, 285 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: I think Gerald Jared Baumb is just a serial killer 286 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: in the making. I think you talked about that. He 287 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: said that they were innocence. We talked about like sheep 288 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: to the slaughter. What kind of pattern do we see 289 00:16:55,760 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 1: with serial killers? Often they pick young couples lovers is 290 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,439 Speaker 1: usually a sadistic, heinous quality to the crime. When about 291 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: sociopathy and serial killers that they commit acts of cruelty 292 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: to enhance their sexual arousal. It's a part of his 293 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: sexual offending pattern. And I think we can dressed the 294 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: story up as oh, he came home, he was jealous, 295 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: he found other people in his house. Yeah, I guess happen. 296 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 1: We have a serial killer who was lying in wait 297 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 1: and these two quote unquote innocence were in his house 298 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: and they were just the low hanging fruit. And thank 299 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,479 Speaker 1: god he's at trial now because I think he's one 300 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 1: of those people who could be quite prolific, and there 301 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 1: could have been other victims if he wasn't stopped. Well, 302 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: it's already qualifies as mass murder. More than one body 303 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: equals mass murder. To Robin will Lensky, Bomb's defense team 304 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:49,120 Speaker 1: is going to reportedly challenge the girlfriend, Morgan Lewis's testimony, 305 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 1: climbing she's not credible. Do you believe her testimony will 306 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: hold up? I mean, you got to think about it. 307 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: My grandmother would say, you lay down with a dog, 308 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 1: you wake up with a lee. Birds of a feather 309 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 1: flock together. So why should I believe anything? She says, 310 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: I agree with Grandma, and I do believe she's credible. 311 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: I watched her entire testimony. I believe everything she says, 312 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: including one statement that he said that after he kicked 313 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:22,640 Speaker 1: Riley the boy's body into the shaft, he said, goodbye, Riley, 314 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: you piece of sh I mean, you can't make that up. No, 315 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 1: you really can't. And the fact that she says the details, 316 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: that's what I look for, Ashley Willcott, when I'm trying 317 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,199 Speaker 1: a case and I'm trying to determine credibility. Is is 318 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,679 Speaker 1: their story rich in detail? For her to say they 319 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 1: were kneeling down on their knees and he said it'll 320 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: be okay, darling and slid her throat. That's not That's 321 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:47,199 Speaker 1: not the stuff you just make up. No, it's not. 322 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: And she added additional details. For instance, she said, after 323 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,360 Speaker 1: that happened, she felt something warm. She looked down. It 324 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 1: was the blood. She details the entire specific conversations between 325 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: the boyfriend and the girlfriend before the boyfriend was so, 326 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 1: I agree with you. Those are signs of credibility. Now, 327 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:07,360 Speaker 1: the next piece that the prosecution has is, I promise 328 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: you she's made more than one statement. I promise She's 329 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 1: been interviewed more than once. And I know as well 330 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: as you do that that's another measure of credibility. Does 331 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: the story remain the same or does it change? And 332 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: if it remains the same, no reason in my mind 333 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: to doubt what she's saying. And you know what. You 334 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: pull up beside this guy at a red light. He 335 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: looks like everybody else, except for, of course, the swastika 336 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: tattooed on his face. Jared baumb This is step one 337 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 1: preliminary hearing God Willing you will rot in Hell Crime 338 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. Police and e Sat Louis are 339 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 1: investigating a preschool where children were allegedly told to strip 340 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 1: naked and stand in a closet. She didn't learn us anywhere. 341 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: This is what she tried and felt like it would 342 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: calm the children down by doing this, But it's obviously 343 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: it's a no teaching manual anywhere. It's inappropriate and actually 344 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 1: against the law to do this. The police chief says 345 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: they moved swiftly once they heard of those allegations. Within 346 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: a couple of hours, the teacher and her assistant were 347 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 1: removed from the classroom of twenty kids. It's believed four 348 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 1: of those children were victims of the punishment and were 349 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:29,919 Speaker 1: told to strip naked and stand in a closet for 350 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: up to five to ten minutes as punishment. The chief 351 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: does not believe the children were physically or sexually harmed. Okay, 352 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:43,479 Speaker 1: if you say so. Forcing little children, preschoolers to strip 353 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: naked and stand in a dark closet as punishment, and 354 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: that was to quote, calm the children down. I wonder 355 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,120 Speaker 1: how that preschool teacher would feel we stripped her down 356 00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,400 Speaker 1: naked it for its artists, stand in a dark closet. 357 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: You think it would calm her down? Because it would 358 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: not call me down. It would make me krayz angry, Imancy, Grace, 359 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: this is crime stories. Thank you for being with us. 360 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: I guarantee you this much. I guarantee the parents of 361 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: those preschoolers had no idea that that was the punishment. 362 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: I can guarantee you that a teacher forcing a four 363 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,959 Speaker 1: year four year old preschoolers to strip naked and stand 364 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: in a dark closet as punishment, and not only did 365 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: she do that, another teacher stood by and watched and 366 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 1: did nothing with me an all star panel, Doctor William Moroney, 367 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: renowned medical examiner, author of America narcan on Amazon, psychologist 368 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 1: Karen Stark at Karen dot com joining us from Manhattan 369 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: with me. Robin will Lensky joining me. Crime online dot 370 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: Com investigative reporter, author of Beautiful Life, the CSI behind 371 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: the Casey Anthony Trial, and Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family 372 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,439 Speaker 1: lawyer Kathleen Murphy. Before I get into the facts, what 373 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: do you make of this? You're the family lawyer. You 374 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: ever heard this from one of your cases that children 375 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: are forced to strip naked and stand in a dark closet. Never? 376 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 1: And Nancy, you have the best listeners in the world, 377 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: the best. We need to find out who we should 378 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,679 Speaker 1: call to make sure ay these teachers are named and 379 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: be their prosecutor. Yeah. To Robert Willinsky, crime online dot 380 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: Com investigative reporter and author of Beautiful Life. Robin Willinski, 381 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: how come the teachers aren't being named? I don't get it. 382 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:39,959 Speaker 1: You know, that's a great question, and I don't know 383 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: the answer. Normally, in cases like this, we hear the 384 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: names and we can find out the names. But in 385 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: this case, Nancy, they are not releasing the names of 386 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,159 Speaker 1: this twenty six year old teacher. She'd worked at the 387 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: school for three years. And then the other lady is 388 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: forty one, the one who knew about it, looked on 389 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 1: and did nothing. And I have to tell you, I 390 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 1: agree with you. This was done allegedly to keep the 391 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: kids calm, and this was their punishment for trouble. It 392 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: doesn't keep a kid calm. This creates anxiety, I guess. 393 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:11,880 Speaker 1: So think about it, Robin, do you want to get 394 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 1: stripped down and forced to go stand in a closet 395 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 1: with a bunch of other people Because I don't absolutely not. 396 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: That would absolutely have the opposite effect on me. I 397 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: would imagine that these children, Nancy, were far from calm 398 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 1: when they came out of the closet. This is the 399 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: kind of thing that creates terrible dreams and night terrors 400 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: and something you never get over for the rest of 401 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 1: your life. To doctor William Maroney, medical examine or author 402 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: of American Narcan, doctor Maroney, not only are you an 403 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 1: MD a doctor, but you're also a dad. I can't 404 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: imagine anything that would be make your heart race more 405 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 1: than a running one hundred yard dash. Is forcing a 406 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: child to take off all their clothes and stand in 407 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,239 Speaker 1: a dark closet with other naked children. I mean their 408 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: pulses were racing. I think the important thing about safety 409 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: here is children can fall down. You lock them in 410 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,120 Speaker 1: a dark closet, they can get hurt. You take off 411 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: their clothes, they can get hurt. That's the physical damage. 412 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:22,880 Speaker 1: But your previous guest just said damaged for life. These 413 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: are adverse childhood events that lead you to distrust people. 414 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: It can lead you into drug addiction, it can lead 415 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 1: you into separation, anxiety. There is so much trauma from 416 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: this little event that somebody would say, oh, well, you know, 417 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 1: we were just trying to calm them down. This doesn't 418 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: calm people down. This damages their spirits for life and unhealthy. 419 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,199 Speaker 1: It's terribly unhealthy and I'm gonna shriek, but I know 420 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 1: that much. And Karen Stark talk about lifelong damage. Karen 421 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: Stark joining us at a Manhattan psychologist. You can find 422 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: her at Karen Stark dot com. Karen, as much as 423 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: we try to tell children, oh, your body is healthy, 424 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 1: it's nothing to be ashamed of. Sure, you're great, you're beautiful, 425 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: you're perfect, and then as punishment you make them take 426 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 1: their clothes off. That's punishment to be naked. That's not 427 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 1: good it's awful, Nancy. There's something that's very sado masochistic 428 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 1: about what they did. This was more about the people 429 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,399 Speaker 1: in charge getting off in some way. I hate to 430 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,919 Speaker 1: say this, but it's true on this punishment than it 431 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 1: was about calming the children down. For the children, this 432 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 1: is something that will absolutely stay with them because they 433 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 1: do know about their bodies, and they know that their 434 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,399 Speaker 1: bodies should be closed, and so they deal with shame 435 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: and humiliation and something they can't possibly understand. Can you 436 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: even imagine how mad I would be. I would chew 437 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 1: a nail in half if somebody did this to John 438 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 1: David and Lucy. You were not kidding. Take a listen 439 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,679 Speaker 1: to our friend at NBC two. This is Sarah Mocky. 440 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: They're in East Saint Louis. Is a letter that administrators 441 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: sent to parents late last week outlining a complaint here 442 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: at the SIU Edwardsville Headstart, housed inside the Jackie Joyner 443 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 1: Kersey Center. Investigators say that four students were subjected to 444 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: inappropriate discipline, force to take off their clothes and stand 445 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: alone inside a closet. Michelle Mitchell leaves the Jackie Joyner 446 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,360 Speaker 1: Kersey Center her two sons by her side as they 447 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: always are. I can't do a daycare ever again. Mitchell 448 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: says she's had problems with daycare centers in the past, 449 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: so she stays home now to take care of her kids. 450 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 1: It's not worth it to me. I want my keys 451 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 1: to grow up and have a full life without anything 452 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 1: like this traumatizing. SIU. Edwardsville Police Chief Kevin Schmall says 453 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 1: his department started to investigate staff when a student told 454 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 1: their parents about the discipline. They have now identified four 455 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: victims and one young witness, but it is possible there 456 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: will be more kids involved. I want to emphasize how 457 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: brave these little kids have been coming forward and talking 458 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 1: to us about these incidents. People always look at me 459 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 1: like I'm overreacting, my overprotective with my keys. I don't 460 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: care what they say. No more, I don't and don't 461 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 1: make a difference because look at all stuff that happen 462 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: in the news today. Because this case involves so many kids, 463 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 1: the chief says that they're going to partner with child 464 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: interview experts when they sit down and talk with the 465 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,679 Speaker 1: kids next month, and at that time there could be 466 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,919 Speaker 1: criminal charges in this case. Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville 467 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,639 Speaker 1: is in charge of several head start centers across the area, 468 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: including one right here at the Jackie Joyner Kersey Center. 469 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 1: It's a believe this is where the incidents happened last week. Now. 470 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: The chief of the Siue Police, Kevin Schmall, told me 471 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: they moved swiftly once they heard of the allegations, within 472 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 1: a couple of hours to teach her, nor assistant or 473 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: removed from the classroom of twenty kids. It's believed for 474 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 1: the children are victims the unusual punishment. There could be 475 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 1: other victims, though the investigation is far from over. The 476 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: chief does believe there are no other suspects at this time. 477 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: The teachers a twenty six year old woman. Her assistant 478 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 1: is a forty one year old female. Neither is new 479 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 1: to the program. The chief does not believe the children 480 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: were physically or sexually harmed, he said. The teacher admitted 481 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,199 Speaker 1: to the punishment. He credits a young boy for coming 482 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 1: forward and revealing what was going on. Very hard, especially 483 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:14,119 Speaker 1: it's your teacher. You know, you have a lot of 484 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: pitrust far and everything, and to especially go up against 485 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 1: your teacher and say something about what was going on. 486 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: But it was the right thing for that little boy 487 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,400 Speaker 1: to do. He's very brave by coming forward and telling 488 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 1: his mother what happened. Now, Siue just send a letter 489 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: two parents of the kids involved in this program, and 490 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: they said the safety and well being of the children 491 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 1: as their top concerned. They say, no, under no circumstances 492 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: does a program condone or tolerate inappropriate treatment towards children, 493 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: families or staff. You're hearing our friends at Fox to 494 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: Saint Louis. That was reporter Rocky Madden talking. So one 495 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: little boy comes forward in the whole thing cracks wide open. 496 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: This is the Jackie Joiner Cursey Headstart program. Now, for 497 00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: those of you that don't know, head Start is a 498 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 1: program here within the US in the Department of Health 499 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 1: and Human Services that gives early childhood education at very 500 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: young ages. It gives health and nutrition, It feeds the children. 501 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: And this is for low income children and their families. 502 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: Trying to give them a quote head Start to foster 503 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: family relationships, help the children's physical and emotional well being, 504 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: develop a strong cognitive skill set, to help them get 505 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: into preschool and elementary school learning things they may not 506 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 1: have the opportunity to learn at home. This is for 507 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: low income families. So we know that these children are 508 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: coming from homes where they don't have much. They're trying 509 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 1: to give them a leg up to get them on 510 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: equal footing with other children they'll be in school with 511 00:29:55,640 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: later on. And this is what happens to these children 512 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: who are already at a disadvantage in life. They get 513 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: treated like this. I'm so mad, I could you a 514 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: nail and a half Robert Wilensky. Not only that I 515 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: understand that these horrible people are put on leave with pay. 516 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: I mean, how outrageous is this? You know they call 517 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 1: it the head start program, Nancy. This is a false start, 518 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: an absolute false start for these children that they will 519 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: never get over. And you know what I want to know. 520 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: I want to know what happened to the other sixteen kids. 521 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: There's a total of twenty in the class. For that 522 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: they know how to strip and be in the closet, 523 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 1: and what about the other sixteen? And I'd like to see, 524 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 1: you know, if they would install a camera in this classroom. 525 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: What else has gone on? I mean, who thought of this? 526 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: Who comes up with such a horrendous you know, tell 527 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: the kids quiet down now, put some nice comming music 528 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 1: on and go sit in the time out corner with 529 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: your clothes on, not in the closet naked, to strip 530 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: and humiliate you. To Kathleen Murphy, I wonder about the 531 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 1: other children two, but I've never heard of anything like 532 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: this before. Making the children's strip naked and go stand 533 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 1: in a dark closet to calm them down. It is 534 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: criminal and it is so mentally sick of these teachers 535 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: who may even be parents. Let's see what kind of 536 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,959 Speaker 1: parents they really are at home too, Nancy. If that 537 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: happened to one of my children or one of the 538 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: little lads in my neighborhood, I would be up in arms, 539 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,479 Speaker 1: and your listeners need to be up in arms. Well, 540 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,719 Speaker 1: I mean, think about it, Kathleen. Why would we treat 541 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: this with child victims differently than we would adults. What 542 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: if somebody got you stripped, it made you stripped naked? 543 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: Is humiliation, probably in front of the whole class and 544 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 1: walk naked into the closet and being a dark punishment, 545 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 1: maybe prosecuted dart right, they would be. So why is 546 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 1: this different because their child victims? And as far as 547 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: these two headstart teachers a not having their names public, 548 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 1: they're still getting paid. Listen to our friend at CBS four. 549 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: Gilma evalis an investigation underway after police say preschoolers were 550 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:26,959 Speaker 1: forced to strip naked and stand in a closet as 551 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 1: part of punishment for misbehaving. Children would misbehave in the class, 552 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: This teacher would have them disrobe and make them stand 553 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: inside of a closet for about five or ten minutes. 554 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 1: Its allegedly happened in Saint Louis at a Headstart program 555 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 1: operated by Southern Illinois University Edwardsville at the Jackie Join 556 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: or Kersey Center. Police say four students ages four and 557 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: five were disciplined in this way, and that this had 558 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: been going on since early February but was just reported 559 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 1: to them last week. The twenty six year old allegedly 560 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: behind this incident has been teaching at the school for 561 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 1: three years. A second teacher, a forty one year old 562 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: who has been with the program for five years, was 563 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: put on paid administrative leave for allegedly witnessing the punishment 564 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: and not reporting it. That's right, That is right. Two 565 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 1: preschool teachers are paid administrative leave. At a head Start 566 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 1: program located in Southern Illinois University, a twenty six year 567 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 1: old teacher punishing the students by making them strip down 568 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: and stand naked in a dark closet. She had been 569 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 1: working there for three years. A forty one year old 570 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 1: instructor given paid leave for witnessing it and doing nothing 571 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: about it. Then time passes, nobody said a word until 572 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: one of the little boys told Mommy, why are they 573 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: keeping these teachers names a secret? We don't know? And 574 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: a twenty six year old going on twenty seven and 575 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: a forty one year old teacher. I bet Jackie Joyner 576 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: Kersey has no idea that the head start named in 577 00:33:56,040 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 1: her honor is doing something like this. These children just 578 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: four and five years old. A parent complained after hearing 579 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: the story from her son, leading police to get involved. 580 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: Is it true, Robert Willinsky? There was a lag time 581 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,359 Speaker 1: nobody would found out about it until the little boy 582 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 1: told his mom, well, that's right, Nancy. Here we are, 583 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 1: you know, in March, already past Saint Patrick's Day. And 584 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 1: this had allegedly been going on since the beginning of February. 585 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 1: And I bet when they get to the rest of 586 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 1: the interviews they have not his parents that is first 587 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 1: taking place. Some of these interviews scheduled for the month 588 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 1: of April, and I bet when they sit down in 589 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: the proper psychological setting with the medical professionals, you're going 590 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 1: to hear more unseemly details that have gone on in 591 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: that classroom. So to you, Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina trial lawyer, 592 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:54,560 Speaker 1: what charges do you believe can be bought brought against 593 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:59,799 Speaker 1: these teachers? Criminally misdemeanor child abuse? Unfortunately, it could be 594 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 1: sealony child abuse if there's a pattern of disbehavior or 595 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 1: repeated incidents of disbehavior. I'd love to see some salony 596 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:11,840 Speaker 1: child abuse. It's mental abuse, it's physical abuse, and it 597 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 1: should be addressed appropriately by the prosecutor. And Jackie Joyner 598 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: Kersey should be outraged that our center in her name 599 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 1: is part of this. Take a listen to our friend 600 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,879 Speaker 1: Russell kinseaul A k M. The two preschool teachers are 601 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 1: a paid administrative leave. They are teachers with the Headstart 602 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 1: program operated by Southern Illinois University Edwardsville, SIUE, and it 603 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 1: is housed here at the Jackie joined Kersey Center. Any 604 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 1: Saint Louis and I would be outraged. I would be 605 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:44,359 Speaker 1: appalled and completely upset. People are expressing outrage when they 606 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:46,719 Speaker 1: find out a Headstart teacher if that should have been 607 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 1: helping students learn, as accused of humiliating them instead of 608 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,800 Speaker 1: protecting children. She's accused of child abuse. Children would misbehave 609 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 1: in the class. This teacher would have them disrobe, im 610 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 1: hey them stand inside of a closet for bof over 611 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,320 Speaker 1: ten minutes. Police say four students, ages four and five 612 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: in the head Start program at the Jackie Joyner Kersey 613 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,920 Speaker 1: Center were disciplined this way. As a mother myself, I 614 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 1: can't believe they will let something like this go on. 615 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,239 Speaker 1: Police believe this had been going on since early February, 616 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,040 Speaker 1: but only learned about it last week. We felt that 617 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 1: as very inappropriate and possibly there is some criminal actions 618 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 1: charges that could come as a result of this. Something 619 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 1: needs to be not at a teachers. They should be 620 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,280 Speaker 1: disciplined as far as what's going on. The teacher accused 621 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 1: of disciplining students by forcing them to take their clothes 622 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 1: off is twenty six years old and has been teaching 623 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 1: at the preschool three years. A forty one year old 624 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: teacher who's been there five years was also put on 625 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 1: paid administrative leave for allegedly witnessing the children being humiliated, 626 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 1: but never reporting it. You send your kids off to 627 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: school or places. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace 628 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,440 Speaker 1: Crime Stories, signing off, goodbye friend,