WEBVTT - Summer Break: Sarah on The Bright Side 0:00:00.800 --> 0:00:03.160 Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're sitting 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:05.600 by the pool with our feed up, enjoying the first 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:06.560 day of our break. 0:00:06.800 --> 0:00:08.360 But we couldn't leave you with that a little something 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:09.000 to listen to. 0:00:09.440 --> 0:00:11.800 It's Monday, June thirtieth, and on today's show, we're bringing 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:13.800 you my recent appearance on an episode of the Hello 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:17.400 Sunshine podcast The bright Side, hosted by Simone Voice. I 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:19.439 had the opportunity to hop on with Simone back in 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:21.319 May and talk about why being pushed out of your 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:24.439 quote unquote dream job isn't the end, what it means 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:26.880 to be a woman who contains multitudes and a world 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:30.280 that wants you to shrink, chasing big dreams, creating lasting 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:33.240 change in women's sports, and the power of owning every 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:36.960 part of your story. I really love this conversation with Simone, 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:38.120 and I think you all will too. 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:40.360 That episode of The bright Side is coming up right 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:40.720 after this. 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:52.199 Okay, y'all, it is time to get this episode started. 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:54.080 We told you we put a lot of thought into 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:56.200 how we wanted to kick off this new season, and 0:00:56.880 --> 0:00:59.959 we've been really intentional about who would set the time 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:02.920 for the kinds of conversations that we want to have 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:05.319 together And I told you, I told you I wanted 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:07.600 to go deeper with you this season, and we're doing 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:11.360 that today with someone who embodies main character energy. And 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:14.800 I'm not talking about the overused trendy way, No, I'm 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:18.039 talking about somebody who takes big swings, who wipes out 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:21.360 and still finds the audacity to get back up. Someone 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:25.160 who has stared down rejection, fear of failure, and that 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:30.000 relentless inner critic and chose to trust yourself anyway. Someone 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:33.080 who refuses to shrink or let the world put her 0:01:33.080 --> 0:01:37.680 in a box. Someone like Sarah Spain. You probably know 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:41.720 Sarah from ESPN, from her razor sharp commentary on sports 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:43.880 and culture, or maybe just from being one of the 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:46.880 smartest voices in the media game right now. She's been 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:50.280 a fixture at ESPN for over a decade, across platforms 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:53.240 like Around the Horn, Highly Questionable, and Spain and Fits. 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:56.520 She's also an Emmy winner and a Peabody winner. Okay, 0:01:56.800 --> 0:02:00.160 a longtime advocate for women in sports and equity and media, 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:02.440 which is one of the reasons why she created Good 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:05.800 Game with Sarah Spain, the first daily podcast dedicated to 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:08.840 women's sports and most recently, she's the author of the 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:11.200 new book Runs in the Family, which follows the real 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:13.960 life story of Delan McCullough, a father of four and 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:17.480 accomplished football coach whose world gets turned upside down when 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:20.480 he learns the truth about his family history. Y'all, I 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:22.760 knew going into this conversation that Sarah and I were 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:25.239 going to have a few things in common. I personally 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:26.880 know what it's like to climb through the ranks of 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:29.840 the media industry only to be met with constant rejection, 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:33.400 and also confronting the reality that there are going to 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:35.959 be suits and gatekeepers at every turn who want to 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:37.440 keep you in a box and make you stay in 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:41.200 your lane. But what I didn't expect was how candid 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:44.960 Sarah was about her setbacks and low points, and that 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:50.240 honesty was so liberating. It was so refreshing to hear, 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:54.160 and it really inspired me not to fear those moments, 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:57.160 but to embrace the freedom that comes on the other side. 0:02:57.600 --> 0:03:00.520 All Right, it's time to hype up the ultimate hype woman. 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:06.240 Here's my conversation with Sarah Spain. Sarah Spain, Welcome to 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:07.040 the bright Side. 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:07.960 Thanks for having me. 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:12.239 Congratulations on your book Runs in the family. You got 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:14.960 the most epic co sign from our very own Reese 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:18.200 Witherspoon on your story that this book is based on. 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:21.359 And here's what Rees said. Okay, she said, quote had 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:24.520 me in tears. It made me believe in fate, the 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:28.080 power of family and divine intervention. And this is the 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:30.320 best part. You know, this is the best part, she said. 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:33.960 It's so well written. I mean, you can't ask for 0:03:34.000 --> 0:03:34.519 more than that. 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:36.800 She wrote about it on every platform. 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:41.080 She posted on Instagram, Twitter, like LinkedIn, wherever, Facebook, every 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:43.520 single place she posted something so nice when it came out, 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:47.480 and it was like, honestly, like my cheeks hurt from smiling. 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:48.640 I was like, oh my god, did Reason and I 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:51.160 just become best friends. I'm still working on that part, 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:54.360 but yeah, and so it was such a nice boost 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:57.480 and like really awesome commentary from folks like that when 0:03:57.720 --> 0:04:00.280 we first did the story for ESPN, where I think 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:03.720 a good little boost to get a book along the way. 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:05.560 And so now I'm really excited for everyone to read 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:07.400 the bigger, more full story. 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:10.240 Hey, she is the Queen of books, so I know 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:15.000 kind of endorsement does not hurt. What is your superpower 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:17.640 as a storyteller, And how do you think it's on 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:18.960 display in this book. 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:22.400 I would say it's two. I would say one is empathy. 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:25.800 I have a real desire to understand why people are 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:27.880 the way that they are. And I think as I've 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:33.560 gotten older, especially, I've become particularly interested in how people's 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:36.360 lives have been different from mine, the pathologies that people 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:38.800 get from the family systems in which they grow up, 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:44.560 or the interactions that they have with loved ones, friends, lovers, whoever. 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:47.839 I think it's a better way to go through life 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:51.039 to tell yourself a story about how people got to 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:53.440 be who they are instead of just being angry or judgmental. 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:55.920 And so, as I get older and I study more 0:04:56.040 --> 0:05:01.120 about psychology, sociology, all the different things around just kind 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:03.320 of why people are who they are, it makes me 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:06.880 try to better understand people's choices instead of judging them. 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:08.960 And so, particularly in a book like this that has 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:12.080 these really complicated ideas of people who are dating, abuse 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:14.680 of men, or men with drug problems, people who are 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:18.120 struggling to pay the bills or maybe aren't making healthy choices, 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:20.640 you can write a book like that and be up 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:23.160 high on a hill and say, well, I never struggled 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:25.280 with that, so that was a bad choice instead of 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:27.040 trying to understand how they got to where they are. 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:29.000 So I think the empathy was huge for this one. 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:31.400 And then the other one is synthesizing ideas. I use 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:35.920 this across all my jobs, podcasting, radio, writing, TV. Essentially, 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:37.640 how do I get this thing that I want to 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:39.960 say or this thing someone else said and put it 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:42.080 into the right words to best express it. 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:46.400 And for writing, I think, gosh, I should knock on wood. 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:49.600 But I just never got writer's block during the book. 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:51.160 And I think part of that is like my brain 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:55.520 just naturally wants to take ideas and find a way 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:58.359 to make them almost fit a puzzle and get across 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:01.080 the themes or the stories nottes that I wanted to 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:02.160 make sure we're in there. 0:06:02.240 --> 0:06:05.080 So I think those two superpowers were super helpful. 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:08.200 Yeah, I'll say, and you are the envy of writers 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:13.120 everywhere whoever probably ringing their hands experiencing writer's block right now. 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:14.440 It probably jinks myself. 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:19.400 Speaking of synthesizing, would you just synthesize the story of 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:20.960 Runs in the Family for us? 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:22.279 So long story short. 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:24.560 Dylan McCullough is currently the Running Backs coach for the 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:27.520 Las Vegas Raiders. He grew up in Youngstown, Ohio, right 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:30.599 after the industrial collapse, so really tough time. There are 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:33.520 a lot of people without jobs. Oftentimes he was without 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:37.000 electricity or hot water. His family really struggled because his 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:39.600 adoptive dad left when he was two, so now he's 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:42.279 sort of doubly rejected by father. Figures growing up with 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:44.120 a single mom who's trying to make it work for 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:47.360 him and his brother Damon. He gets into football, ends 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:50.520 up getting recruited by a handful of people, including a 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:53.080 Youngstown fellow named Sherman Smith who had made it good 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:55.200 at the NFL level, who recruits him to go to 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:57.400 Miami of Ohio, breaks a bunch of records, tries to 0:06:57.400 --> 0:07:00.120 go to the NFL, gets injured, eventually gets into teaching 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:02.880 and then coaching, and along the way starts a family. 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:05.479 Has four sons. Doesn't know anything about his medical history, 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:07.680 doesn't anything of his birth family, but as he gets 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:10.520 older with his kids, he decides he's interested, and eventually 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:13.280 the laws change. In Pennsylvania, where he was born, he 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:15.960 can find his birth certificate, finds his mom within like 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:19.040 a day on Facebook. She never got married, never had kids, 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:21.960 she's been looking for him, she's so excited to find him. 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:25.720 And now forty five years later, he asks, do you 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:27.720 know who my dad is? It's not on my birth certificate, 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:30.200 and she tells him and it's someone that's been in. 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:32.000 His life for almost thirty years. 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:35.200 And the dad never knew either because he was never 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:39.480 told about the baby. So it's just a really incredible storied, 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:41.440 such a feel good story. But also I really wanted 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:43.760 to make sure it wasn't just about him. It was 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:46.160 a story anybody could find themselves in to try to 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:49.520 understand what's passed down via DNA versus, what's passed down 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:54.680 via family systems, generational trauma, language and messaging, and how 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:56.640 we get to decide what do we want to keep 0:07:56.680 --> 0:07:59.520 with our family, even backwards to our parents. Is that 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:02.080 relationship serving us? Is that choice serving us? Or can 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:05.680 we decide to change? And how those are interwoven with 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:07.960 the things that were genetically handed that we can't choose. 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:11.040 Well, you clearly lead with empathy and curiosity, and I 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:13.640 think those are sister traits. They go hand in hand, 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:18.000 especially in the field of journalism, and in that field 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:25.200 you've worked across radio, television, podcasts, writing, what skill came first, 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:28.120 or which one feels most like you at your. 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:34.120 Core talking my poor parents, I just yeappen yeah, but professional? Yeah? 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:35.920 Or since birth? Actually, it took me a little while 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:37.520 to start talking, and then once they did, they were like, 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:38.120 holy cow. 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:41.720 I remember literally, like nine or ten years old, asking 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:43.240 my parents if you can get paid to talk for 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:45.520 a living, and they were like, no, that's not a job. 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:48.440 And I'm like, found one genius. 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:51.880 I've been a professional yapper for many years now, and 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:54.839 I wish I had had the foresight to just speak 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:57.480 it into existence at such a young age. Apparently I 0:08:57.600 --> 0:09:00.360 manifested it. Look at us now, I know we made 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:00.840 it work. 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:05.320 But the curiosity aspect too, you know, I've always wanted 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:09.599 to do everything, try everything, do everything. I was in 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:13.240 band Chorus three, sports Talent show, went to college. I 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:15.880 was a heptathlete, which is literally the track event where 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:18.320 you don't pick one thing, you do all seven of them. 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:26.080 And then in ESPN and in my career podcast, national radio, writing, producing, television, 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:29.240 like all the things, and so I think the curiosity 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:31.080 to know how to do something and to try it, 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:33.280 and then to understand why people are the way they 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:35.600 are and get to know them. Those are a part 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:39.319 of wanting to be like a journalist and explore stories. 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:42.920 What is it about challenging yourself in all these different 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:46.200 arenas that thrills you? Like why do you think you 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:47.920 do it? And why do you think you go after 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:48.839 everything so hard? 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:53.320 I have a lot of life fomo. But it's not envy, 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:56.520 if that makes a sense. Like I saw an interview 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:58.680 with someone the other day and it totally clicked for me, 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:02.440 and they said, when I see someone having success at 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:03.840 something I think I would. 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:05.960 Be great at, I have envy. 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:08.640 There are plenty of times when I see people doing 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:11.120 great things and I'm just happy for them. But if 0:10:11.120 --> 0:10:13.160 I'm happy for someone and there's a little bit of 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:15.800 envy and means it might be meant for me. And 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:18.400 I think that's how I felt growing up watching a 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:20.440 lot of stuff like oh I think I could do that, 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:22.439 and I think I could do it, well, let me 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:25.199 try it. But yeah, I mean I think also, I'm 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:28.840 pretty fearless. It's interesting. I feel fearless when I'm in control, 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:31.000 and the older I get, the more I recognize that 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:33.560 I do have issues with control. The first time I 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:36.839 do anything I'm nervous because I'm like, wait, okay, where 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:38.520 do I sit? What will the chair look like? Which 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:41.000 TV am I looking at? What's this question going to be? 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:41.520 Like? How is this? 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:45.080 And then after one time that's it. Not nervous again, 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:48.200 totally fearless, practically naive. Won't even think about the fact 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:50.160 that tons of people are watching it's something terrible could 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:52.320 go wrong. It just doesn't phaze me. So I think 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:57.000 it's a naive fearlessness with like just a little twinge 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:58.800 of needing to, you know, settle in. 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:02.880 That was a per self diagnosis that you can tell. 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:06.920 Reading a lot of books for this book about like therapy, trauma. 0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:10.360 And six We've got to take a short break, but 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:20.800 more from Sarah after the break and we're back with 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:25.920 Sarah Spain. So, considering that you have this zest for 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:30.320 life and this life fomo, I want to hear what 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:34.240 success looked like to you when you were just starting out. 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:36.960 So can you take me back to that overachiever, younger 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:39.920 version of yourself who just graduated from Cornell where you 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:41.840 were co captain of the track and field team and 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:45.920 a HATA athlete. What was baby Sarah chasing at that 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:46.720 moment in time. 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:50.280 Well, right after Cornell, I was still chasing my first dream, 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:52.320 which was most of my life and still you know, 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:54.520 in the background even though it's not realistic at this point, 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:57.439 which was to be on Saturday Night Live. My dream 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:00.760 was to be an actress and comedian and performer. But 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:03.120 because I was doing all the sports and all the things, 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:06.080 it was always conflicting with like the school play and 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:08.000 other things like that. So I took some acting classes 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:10.720 at Cornell, I moved home to save up a little money, 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:12.920 and then I moved to La worked in a restaurant. 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:16.560 Like every stereotype says, did auditions, did acting classes, did 0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:19.840 the Second City improv Conservatory. And it wasn't until I 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:23.120 took a TV hosting boot camp and the teacher had 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:25.960 us focus on something that we are an expert on 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:30.200 to practice and I was like, my expertise is like literature. 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:32.080 I was an English major, so that's not going to 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:34.520 be on a show. So I did a fake Chicago 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.080 Bears show. I just always been a sports fan and 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:38.719 an athlete. And the teacher said, oh, you want to 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:41.280 work in sports. It's like, no, there's no women in sports. 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:42.920 And I want to be funny and the only women 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:45.480 are like supermodels on the sidelines, like Aaron Andrews. 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:47.920 And she said, well, it just seems natural you could 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:48.200 try it. 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:50.040 So I took a class in TV sports reporting at 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:53.320 Yucilie and I was like, Oh, this is so many things. 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:56.319 The writing, the extemporaneous thinking, the interview skills come out 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:58.280 of improv my knowledge base. 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:00.760 Having been a three sport athlete my whole life. 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:04.120 I always think of that when I consider the fact 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:06.800 that literally when they say you can see, if you 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:08.120 can see it, you can be it. 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:09.200 I never saw it. 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:11.959 There were no women doing sports in Chicago growing up, 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:17.000 and it was just not really considered an option. I 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:19.200 think it's a good quality that I have that I 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:23.680 don't have grudges and I don't get stuck in any place. 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:26.640 But that also means when I look back, I'm sure 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:30.920 I have a much rosier view of like what it 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:33.880 was like back then. I think I really thought I 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:37.480 had something and I was so terrified no one else 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:38.200 thought that too. 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:40.720 But I was really insecure about what I look like. 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:42.760 I've never been as skinny as most of the people 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:45.720 on TV, despite being a heptathlete. Like my body type 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:49.280 is just not twig, and so I was so worried 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:51.840 watching who was making it and thinking, oh, they really 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:54.520 just care about what women look like. So my first 0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:57.480 job was this fantasy football show that was just like 0:13:57.640 --> 0:13:59.760 those online pop ups that used to pop up when 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:01.800 you would go to a sports site back in the 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:05.520 wild wild West of like very misogynist sports blogs, and 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:08.400 it was like, Hi, I'm your fantasy sports girl Sarah 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:11.200 with this week's fantasy football tips, and I had to 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:14.840 wear like cleavage tops, and like that was a big break. 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:17.840 I was in like Jim Rome's two million dollar studio 0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:20.240 with ESPN producers, and that was the only way I 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:25.240 could get in, was like doing the stereotypical BS sexy stuff. 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:28.000 Meanwhile I was trying to do. I was filming my 0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:31.160 own fake sketches for my hosting reel that were all 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:35.240 like comedic and silly and ridiculous, and I think that 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:38.160 was I think if you asked young me, I would 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:41.200 never dream of a single thing I've accomplished. And that's 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:43.520 what I tell myself every time I get an opportunity 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:47.080 and I'm scared to take it, is what I have said. 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:49.040 I'm gonna win it, Emmy or a Peabody, or get 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:50.680 to be on TV or do around the Horn, or 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:53.160 have my own show, or literally anything I've accomplished. 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:55.160 I wish I could say I was that kind of dreamer. 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:57.560 I always believed I had something, but I don't think 0:14:57.600 --> 0:14:59.280 I ever was brave enough. 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:00.520 I'm very afraid failure. 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:02.480 So if I never say the thing that I want 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:04.640 and put it out there, then I never have anyone 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:07.320 who could say, you said you wanted this and you 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:08.720 didn't get it, you failed. 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:10.000 That's so real. 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:12.120 Okay, Wait, I have to rewind because there's so much 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:13.880 there that I want to unpact, so much that you 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:19.040 said I want therapy. So this show where you felt 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:22.880 like you were hyper sexualized when you were talking about sports. 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:27.200 What year was that, Uh, probably two thousand and five 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:32.640 because I remember also kind of becoming an on camera 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:36.040 personality around that time, and it was a different time 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:39.440 then that was really accepted, and that was a way 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:41.640 that you could get a footthold in the industry was 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:44.960 if you did kind of like a sexier spin on content. 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:50.400 All the women in my business from that time remember that. Yeah, 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:52.600 we always had to be like, I'm a guys girl. 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:54.760 Most of my best friends are like, the only way 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:57.040 to be accepted in sports was essential to be like, 0:15:57.160 --> 0:16:00.200 don't worry, I'm not actually a woman. I'm just a 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:04.120 hot chick who's a dude inside. And like, I talk 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:06.520 about that a lot when it comes to the evolution 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:10.840 of women's sports. Yeah, because we don't have to apologize 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:14.600 for being different. It's part of the authenticity that people enjoy. 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:18.520 And when we stopped having to pretend like we were 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:21.840 just like the guys, but you know, women, we got 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:26.760 to be funnier and more comfortable and villains and heroes 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:29.800 and masculine and feminine and queer and straight and all 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:33.320 the multi dimensional things that we let male sports athletes 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:36.520 and media be. And it was so restrictive and limiting 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:38.800 that it wasn't enjoyable. And then we open up the 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:40.680 door to let it be free, and it's like, oh, 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:41.720 this works. 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:44.160 And you hinted at this. But there are even expectations 0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:46.840 around what a funny woman looks like. 0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:50.080 Yeah, or what whether women should be funny, whether women 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:54.480 are funny exactly, famous articles from Christopher Hitchins why women 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:57.920 aren't funny, And there's a lot of studies of if 0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:00.240 a woman is attractive. We don't want you to make 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:03.880 yourself less attractive in order to be funny. Your number 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:07.080 one value is your looks, and you're trading on that 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:10.080 when you become funny. And I have found that restrictive 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:11.880 at every point in my career. So when I first 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:14.359 went back to Chicago, I was working for a startup 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:16.280 website and I brought a ton of my improv stuff 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:18.000 to it, and I was just having fun with player 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:21.960 personalities and bringing some creativity to it. And it was 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:24.639 very hard to make sure that like, I'm being funny, 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:27.440 but never in any way that could be misconstrued as sexual, 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:31.080 because people are already pushing all their opinions and their 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:34.280 feelings of sexuality onto you at every turn, and so 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:36.720 at every turn you're constantly like kind of trying to 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:38.560 look ahead and be like, oh, what's someone going to 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:40.240 say about this, or how are they going to perceive this? 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:43.199 And I was blindsided a million times by something I 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:46.080 did or said that somehow somebody made sexual when that 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:48.920 wasn't my intention, and it really prevents you from being 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:50.480 creative in so many ways. 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:55.560 I was also blindsided by this perception that you can't 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:58.520 be smart and funny at the same time, like I 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:02.760 experienced this in my career as a news journalist. It's 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:05.760 like people are just incapable of holding space for women 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:07.920 to be more than one thing. And this is something 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:11.919 that I'm saying, the drum about just embracing our multitudes. 0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:13.639 Couldn't be more true. I used to talk about this 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:15.439 all the time. It was the idea of, like, we 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:17.439 have to put you in one box. Either you're the 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:19.199 hot girl, or you're the funny girl, or you're the 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:22.120 smart girl. And I found that early in my career too, 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:25.360 because I was doing like radio updates that were sort 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:27.639 of light and fun. And then I started working for 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:30.840 espnW and I was covering everything from silly stuff to 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:34.480 very serious stories about domestic violence and sexual assault. And 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:38.960 I knew how to be in different places as different 0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:42.959 versions of myself and to bring the right approach and attitude. 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:44.160 But not everyone else did. 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:47.600 And I think for women especially, there is this feeling 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:51.199 of we cannot view you as anything other than what 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:54.600 we decided you are. And your point about especially attractive women, 0:18:54.640 --> 0:18:58.000 I think of someone like George Clooney's wife, or Michelle Obama, 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:02.119 or like people who are so unbelievably impressive and instead 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:04.520 it's like, but she looks great in that dress or 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:05.280 nice arms. 0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:07.600 Yeah, it's never ending, So I think you just have 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:08.800 to tune it out and do you. 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:11.840 Yeah, like the Nike ad says you can't win, so 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:13.200 just win, So just win. 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:15.679 Well, I want to get into the ESPN chapter of 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:19.080