WEBVTT - S3E4: Trust Issues

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<v Speaker 1>Hey there, it's your host ed helms.

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<v Speaker 2>Here.

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<v Speaker 1>Real quick, before we dive into this episode, I wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to remind you that my brand new book is coming

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<v Speaker 1>out on April twenty ninth. It's called Snaffo, The Definitive

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<v Speaker 1>Guide to History's Greatest screw Ups, and you can pre

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<v Speaker 1>order it right now at snaffoodashbook dot com. Trust me,

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<v Speaker 1>if you like this show, you're gonna love this book.

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<v Speaker 1>It's got all the wild disasters spectacular face plants we

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<v Speaker 1>just couldn't squeeze into this podcast. And here's the kicker.

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<v Speaker 1>I am also going on tour to celebrate that's right.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm coming to New York, DC, Boston, Atlanta, Philadelphia, Chicago,

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<v Speaker 1>San Francisco, and my hometown Los Angeles. So if you've

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<v Speaker 1>ever wanted to see me stumble through a live Q

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<v Speaker 1>and A or dramatically read about a kiddie cat getting

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<v Speaker 1>turned into a CIA operative, now's your chance again. Head

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<v Speaker 1>to snaffoo dashbook dot com to pre order the book

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<v Speaker 1>and check out all the tour details in day, or

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<v Speaker 1>just click the link in the show notes. That'll work too. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>that's it, on with the chaos. This is Snaffoo Season

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<v Speaker 1>three formula six. Previously on Snaffoo. The head of prohibition

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<v Speaker 1>Enforcement cracked down on bootleggers.

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<v Speaker 3>Mabel Walker Willebrant was a very serious woman, and she

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<v Speaker 3>woke up every day. The first thing she did was

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<v Speaker 3>takeing an ice cold bath.

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<v Speaker 1>World War One soldier George Cassidy became the top bootlegger

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<v Speaker 1>to Congress. He was a dapper dude.

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<v Speaker 3>You would have thought he was a general of the

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<v Speaker 3>most powerful army in the world or something.

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<v Speaker 1>And as deaths from alcohol began to rise, American drinkers

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<v Speaker 1>kept right on drinking.

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<v Speaker 4>The acceptance of risk that came with prohibition at these

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<v Speaker 4>levels is kind of horrifying, but it was there, and

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<v Speaker 4>it was real.

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<v Speaker 1>On an November afternoon in nineteen twenty two, Assistant Attorney

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<v Speaker 1>General Mabel Walker Willibrandt takes a trip to the Capitol Building.

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<v Speaker 1>I imagine her with a bulging briefcase, maybe a couple

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<v Speaker 1>of clerks scrambling along behind her trying to keep up.

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<v Speaker 1>They're carrying everything she needs for the case she's about

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<v Speaker 1>to argue. She climbs the stone steps and crosses into

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<v Speaker 1>the shade of white stone columns, then enters a red

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<v Speaker 1>carpeted two story chamber with a domed ceiling. It's the

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<v Speaker 1>old Senate Chamber, which in nineteen twenty two was home

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<v Speaker 1>to the Supreme Court. And today Mabel is presenting her

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<v Speaker 1>case before the nine Supreme Court justices. It's her big moment.

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<v Speaker 1>The gallery is packed for a court case that's made

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<v Speaker 1>national news, the United States versus George Remis. So far,

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<v Speaker 1>prohibition enforcement wasn't going so well. It wasn't going well

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<v Speaker 1>in the liquor capital of America, New York City, where

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<v Speaker 1>the bodies were piling up at Alexander Getler's lab. And

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<v Speaker 1>it wasn't going well in the nation's actual capital, Washington,

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<v Speaker 1>d C. Where speakeasies were popping up on every corner

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<v Speaker 1>and business was booming for the bootleggers, and no bootlegger

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<v Speaker 1>was making a bigger profit than George Remas. Remis wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>just a bootlegger. He was a lawyer and a pharmacist too,

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<v Speaker 1>a trifecta that made him one of the richest men

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<v Speaker 1>in America. Since the start of Prohibition, Remus had been

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<v Speaker 1>building an illegal alcohol empire that rivaled al Capones, which

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<v Speaker 1>made him the target of Mabel Walker Willebrandt. When she

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<v Speaker 1>faced George Remas in court. Mabel was determined that this

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<v Speaker 1>would be a turning point in her war. Remus was

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<v Speaker 1>a big fish, and Mabel was going to gut him.

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<v Speaker 1>With the whole nation watching, I'm Ed Helms and this

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<v Speaker 1>is Snafu, a show about history's greatest screw ups. This

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<v Speaker 1>season a dark tale from the heart of the Prohibition

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<v Speaker 1>era Formula six, how prohibitions war on alcohol went so

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<v Speaker 1>off the rails the government wound up poisoning its own people. Today,

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<v Speaker 1>we'll follow Mabel Walker Willebrandt in Washington, d C. As

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<v Speaker 1>she faces one formidable challenge after another. Her bosses are drunks,

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<v Speaker 1>her agents are incompetent, and she's about to realize that

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<v Speaker 1>across the government and even within her own Department of Justice,

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<v Speaker 1>she can't trust anyone.

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<v Speaker 3>She was a lone warrior.

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<v Speaker 1>That's historian and author Dan Grint.

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<v Speaker 3>And she really had an uphill battle for a bunch

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<v Speaker 3>of reasons.

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<v Speaker 1>As you may remember, Mabel was surrounded at her job

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<v Speaker 1>by straight up drunks, starting with the President.

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<v Speaker 3>Harding drank a lot. Harry Dougherty, the Attorney General, who

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<v Speaker 3>was the immediate boss to Mabel wille Brandt, he was

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<v Speaker 3>a a drunk and be corrupt.

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<v Speaker 1>And again, like we said before, the guy leading the

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<v Speaker 1>Treasury Department and supervising the Prohibition Bureau owned a whiskey company.

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<v Speaker 1>So when it came time for Mabel to do some

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<v Speaker 1>basic stuff like higher clerks for legal research, well, she

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<v Speaker 1>hit a wall.

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<v Speaker 3>She didn't have much in the way of financial support.

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<v Speaker 3>And one of the things that was indicative of the

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<v Speaker 3>attitude of the dryes is that they passed these laws

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<v Speaker 3>but gave no money for enforcement.

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<v Speaker 1>She didn't have anywhere near the manpower she needed to

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<v Speaker 1>stop the alcohol coming across two borders and sixty thousand

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<v Speaker 1>miles of open coastline.

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<v Speaker 3>The fact that they were only twenty six hundred prohibitionations

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<v Speaker 3>covering the entire Canadian border, the Mexican border, and both coasts,

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<v Speaker 3>it's ridiculous.

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<v Speaker 1>And as for that army of agents, even that man

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<v Speaker 1>power was quickly dwindling. Hundreds of agents were being dismissed

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<v Speaker 1>around the country for brazen corruption, and even the ones

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<v Speaker 1>who weren't corrupt were pretty much useless. Sure they were

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<v Speaker 1>given guns and cars, but little or no training to

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<v Speaker 1>do the actual job.

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<v Speaker 3>Someone said about the Canadian border, you know you can't

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<v Speaker 3>stop a liquid from leaking through a dotted line that

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<v Speaker 3>dotted line on the map.

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<v Speaker 1>So what could Mabel actually do from behind her barge

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<v Speaker 1>sized mahogany desk in Room five oh one at the

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<v Speaker 1>Department of Justice.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, she had the power to bring indictments, the.

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<v Speaker 1>Power of the courts, and as you may remember, her

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<v Speaker 1>job was to work with the bespectacled accountants at the IRS,

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<v Speaker 1>a group of agents supremely qualified to crack down on

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<v Speaker 1>inflated tax deductions, but maybe not so much collecting the

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<v Speaker 1>evidence of illicit bootlegging.

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<v Speaker 5>Open up IRS, No one's here.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh shit, Look there's a whole case of shar truth.

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<v Speaker 3>We should collect that.

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<v Speaker 6>Can't let good evidence go to waste.

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<v Speaker 1>I like the way you enforced the law. But Mabel

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<v Speaker 1>was undeterred, and in the fall of nineteen twenty two,

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<v Speaker 1>she decided to get creative. She came up with a

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<v Speaker 1>plan to round up every last bootlegger, and she was

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<v Speaker 1>gonna start by going after the biggest bootlegger of all,

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<v Speaker 1>George Remis.

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<v Speaker 6>Yes, you're under arrest for violating Title two of the

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<v Speaker 6>Volstad Act.

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<v Speaker 1>You ever watch Boardwalk Empire When the show's writer creator

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<v Speaker 1>Terry Winter began researching George Remis. He couldn't believe what

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<v Speaker 1>he found.

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<v Speaker 2>Here's Terry George Ramis one of the craziest stories here,

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<v Speaker 2>Like an incredibly successful defense attorney becomes like the biggest

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<v Speaker 2>bootlegger ever.

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<v Speaker 1>You're making a mistake. No, can't do this. Limis doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>get arrested. In the show, Remis is a large, bald,

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<v Speaker 1>rich weirdo who, yes, you heard it right, refers to

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<v Speaker 1>himself in the third person.

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<v Speaker 2>And he's like, like, if I made that up, you'd

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<v Speaker 2>got like, come on, and this absolutely all happened.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, all of that's true, including the third person thing.

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<v Speaker 1>His parties were so over the top that people think

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<v Speaker 1>he may have been the inspiration for the Great Gatsby.

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<v Speaker 3>The whole city packed into automobiles and all weekend, every

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<v Speaker 3>weekend ended up at Gatspie's.

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<v Speaker 1>In nineteen twenty two, no one in America owned more

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<v Speaker 1>of the illegal alcohol trade than Remus. At one point,

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<v Speaker 1>he controlled thirty percent of the liquor making its way

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<v Speaker 1>into America.

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<v Speaker 6>Because he had bought up a whole bunch of huge

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<v Speaker 6>rick houses full of whiskey.

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<v Speaker 1>That's historian Garrett Peck. Remus's warehouse stored twenty five million

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<v Speaker 1>dollars worth of alcohol, which he sold and distributed using

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<v Speaker 1>a prohibition loophole from ad sintle alcohol.

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<v Speaker 6>And then he'd bribed people so he could have three

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<v Speaker 6>or four times as much as that he could distribute,

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<v Speaker 6>and he was legally allowed to. So he made a fortune, yeah,

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<v Speaker 6>despite by being able to sell alcohol without any taxes

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<v Speaker 6>on it.

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<v Speaker 1>Since Remus did all the illegal selling without paying taxes, obviously,

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<v Speaker 1>Mabel saw an opportunity. Maybe she could actually use tax

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<v Speaker 1>law in her favor. He could exploit loopholes in prohibition law,

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<v Speaker 1>but maybe she could finally bust Remis through the unforgiving

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<v Speaker 1>tax code. And this wasn't just about Remus. She wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to send a message to all of the bootleggers across

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<v Speaker 1>the country. One way or another, she was coming for them.

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<v Speaker 1>With those black robed justices staring down from their tufted

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<v Speaker 1>leather thrones, the room can be an intimidating place. But

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<v Speaker 1>for Mabel, Nah, She's unflappable, so cool in the courtroom

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<v Speaker 1>that people joke she has ice in her veins. All

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<v Speaker 1>that is to say, Mabel is tough, and it was

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<v Speaker 1>a good thing too. The new York papers lined up

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<v Speaker 1>against her in their coverage of a Supreme Court hearing.

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<v Speaker 1>One newspaper reported that Mabel wasn't quote exactly pretty because

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<v Speaker 1>her features were quote too large and too serious for that,

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<v Speaker 1>and she suffered from a quote suggestion of plumpness, which

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<v Speaker 1>is what I might call a suggestion of shitty, misogynistic journalism.

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<v Speaker 1>And to top it all off, they couldn't even get

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<v Speaker 1>her job title right. One paper called her the woman

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<v Speaker 1>assistant of the Attorney General, but she's actually assistant Attorney General.

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<v Speaker 1>These things matter. Just ask Dwight shrut.

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<v Speaker 5>I am now sempi, which is assistant.

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<v Speaker 6>Sense assistant to the sense.

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<v Speaker 1>That's pretty cool, assistant sense. Mabel wasn't shy about her

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<v Speaker 1>disdain for how she and other women in the working

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<v Speaker 1>world had to deal with what she called girly girly stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>She once sat down for an interview with a literary

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<v Speaker 1>magazine called The Smart Set, basically the nineteen twenties version

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<v Speaker 1>of an Instagram Live.

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<v Speaker 5>A boy must do the job well and develop personality.

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<v Speaker 5>A girl must do the job well and develop personality,

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<v Speaker 5>plus break down skepticism about her ability walk the type

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<v Speaker 5>rope of sexlessness without loss of her essential charm make

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<v Speaker 5>the hard choice between giving up children and home life

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<v Speaker 5>in order to advance or having them in the face

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<v Speaker 5>of increased prejudice.

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<v Speaker 1>So when Mabel faces down bootleggers like George Remus in court,

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<v Speaker 1>she knows the guy in front of her isn't her

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<v Speaker 1>only opponent, but she's undaunted. She's got to get shit done,

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<v Speaker 1>and now before the Supreme Court, she makes a stirring case.

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<v Speaker 1>Where other prosecutors might have overlooked tax law as a hammer,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, let's be honest, it's pretty boring, obscure stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>Mabel saw nothing but potential. Her approach was ingenia and

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<v Speaker 1>her arguments impassioned.

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<v Speaker 5>The tax penalties outlined in internal revenue laws are highly

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<v Speaker 5>important in the enforcement of prohibition. The government isn't giving

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<v Speaker 5>it stamp of approval to an illicit business by taxing them.

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<v Speaker 5>An illegitimate business should not be exempt from paying taxes

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<v Speaker 5>that legitimate businesses should pay. They must pay up too.

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<v Speaker 1>George Remas he was making a fortune because he was

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<v Speaker 1>selling liquor without paying taxes on it. This was bold.

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<v Speaker 1>No one had the audacity or imagination to prosecute any

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<v Speaker 1>major crime figures for income tax evasion, but Mabel determined. Unflinching,

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<v Speaker 1>Mabel decided that if it was going to take tax

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<v Speaker 1>law to enforce prohibition, then so be it. After arguments

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<v Speaker 1>concluded and the Justices began deliberations, Mabel was on edge

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<v Speaker 1>because this trial clearly wasn't just about Remus. This was

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<v Speaker 1>about all the fat cat bootleggers in a Mana America,

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<v Speaker 1>including a fella named Willie Harr, remember him, leader of

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<v Speaker 1>the massive bootlegging operation the Savannah Four down in Georgia,

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<v Speaker 1>and also captain of the vaunted and audaciously meta recreational

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<v Speaker 1>baseball squad, the Bootlegger Team. Well, Harr and his whole

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<v Speaker 1>gang were anxiously following Remis's trial from Savannah, knowing that

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<v Speaker 1>their fate was tied to Remises. This is because Mabel

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<v Speaker 1>had also charged Harr with the same crime, having determined

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<v Speaker 1>the Savannah Four owed two million dollars in unpaid taxes

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<v Speaker 1>from their illegal bootlegging. If the Supreme Court ruled in

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<v Speaker 1>Mabel's favor and decided bootleggers had to pay taxes, well,

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<v Speaker 1>that could be the ballgame for Horror and the Bootlegger team.

0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:51.760
<v Speaker 1>Of course, a few days later, Chief Justice Oliver Wendell

0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:56.600
<v Speaker 1>Holmes renders the court's decision. First, some bad news for Mabel.

0:13:56.960 --> 0:13:59.840
<v Speaker 1>Remus's arrest in this case had occurred a year earlier,

0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:03.600
<v Speaker 1>in October nineteen twenty one. The tax statutes that Mabel

0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:07.200
<v Speaker 1>was resting her entire case on they had passed a

0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:12.480
<v Speaker 1>month later in November, so Remus is exempt. The law

0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:17.800
<v Speaker 1>Mabel was trying to slap onto him didn't even apply.

0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:21.200
<v Speaker 1>She missed her shot by a month. For now, Remus

0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:24.560
<v Speaker 1>was still a free man. That might seem like a

0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:28.000
<v Speaker 1>setback for Mabel, but she's a creature of the law.

0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:30.840
<v Speaker 1>She knows that hidden under the surface of a defeat,

0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:35.160
<v Speaker 1>victories can be one piece by piece, and in this

0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:39.000
<v Speaker 1>case there was a surprise twist. Even though Remis got

0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:42.880
<v Speaker 1>out on a technicality, the Justice is decided that Mabel

0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:47.160
<v Speaker 1>was actually right. In addition to all their other crimes,

0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:51.680
<v Speaker 1>bootleggers also owed taxes on their ill gotten revenue, and

0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:54.800
<v Speaker 1>if they didn't pay up, it was another mark against them,

0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:59.920
<v Speaker 1>one that came with serious jail time. And that decision

0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:04.760
<v Speaker 1>reverberated all the way down to Savannah. And that is

0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:08.120
<v Speaker 1>a win for Mabel because she sees the potential of

0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:13.000
<v Speaker 1>this ruling to dramatically change prohibition enforcement. So even though

0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:16.920
<v Speaker 1>George Remis is acquitted, Mabel emerges from the old Senate

0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:21.200
<v Speaker 1>Chamber ecstatic. Think about this. She's having trouble locking up

0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:25.040
<v Speaker 1>bootleggers because it's virtually impossible to catch them red handed,

0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:28.960
<v Speaker 1>but this gives her a whole new angle of attack.

0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:32.600
<v Speaker 1>If she can prove they've been doing business and not

0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:35.720
<v Speaker 1>paying taxes on the income, she can lock them up

0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:40.160
<v Speaker 1>without ever having to enter a keg into evidence boom.

0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:44.040
<v Speaker 1>And even though Remis had just gotten off the hook,

0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:47.520
<v Speaker 1>he was bound to keep bootlegging, and he probably wasn't

0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:51.200
<v Speaker 1>going to just start paying taxes, so it wouldn't be

0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:54.920
<v Speaker 1>long until Mabel would see him in court again. Investigating,

0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:58.720
<v Speaker 1>Mabel can feel the tide beginning to turn. I can

0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:02.000
<v Speaker 1>picture Mabel now striding out of that capital with a

0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:06.880
<v Speaker 1>bouncing her step, bursting with pride, which is sadly ironic,

0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:10.200
<v Speaker 1>because somewhere across town, a man is strolling along carrying

0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:13.800
<v Speaker 1>a suitcase with a smile. He tips his green hat

0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:16.320
<v Speaker 1>to the people he passes. He's on his way to

0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:21.000
<v Speaker 1>make a delivery and casually undermine everything she's fighting for.

0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:37.760
<v Speaker 1>This green headed fellow would be George Cassidy, merrily strolling

0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:42.880
<v Speaker 1>through the halls of Congress. Because business is good, George

0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:47.400
<v Speaker 1>is averaging two dozen deliveries a day. A bottle of

0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:51.920
<v Speaker 1>sweet red Vermouth to a congressman, two bottles of red

0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:55.720
<v Speaker 1>star Gin to a junior senator, a case of Duncan

0:16:55.760 --> 0:17:00.400
<v Speaker 1>Harwood's Canadian whiskey for the house speaker. Yep, those are

0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:04.280
<v Speaker 1>some big ass suitcases that George hal's around. His delivery's done.

0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:07.280
<v Speaker 1>He now takes the stairs down to the basement and

0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:12.720
<v Speaker 1>finally arrives at an unassuming door. George takes out his keys,

0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:15.679
<v Speaker 1>unlocks the door, steps in, and flips on the lights.

0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:19.679
<v Speaker 1>The windowless room has a mahogany poker table, swivel chairs,

0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:24.119
<v Speaker 1>and lots and lots of bottles of booze. Welcome to

0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:27.879
<v Speaker 1>George's office, you see. A few months ago, one of

0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:31.400
<v Speaker 1>George's clients, a congressman, hooked George up with an office

0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:34.800
<v Speaker 1>which quickly became the warehouse for some of the best

0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:38.399
<v Speaker 1>liquor in town. Not that his clients could tell the

0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:41.720
<v Speaker 1>difference between a McCallan eighteen seventy eight and at George's

0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:46.520
<v Speaker 1>bathtub nineteen twenty two. These politicians may have considered themselves connoisseurs,

0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:48.639
<v Speaker 1>but they had no idea. They were just drinking a

0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:52.160
<v Speaker 1>cheap blend with some food coloring. At the time, only

0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:55.240
<v Speaker 1>George himself knew just how much water he was using

0:17:55.320 --> 0:18:04.160
<v Speaker 1>to cut the imported alcohol. The congressman start marching in.

0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:06.840
<v Speaker 1>One of these men of high taste is one of

0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:10.600
<v Speaker 1>George's most loyal customers. When he walks into George's tavern,

0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:14.560
<v Speaker 1>hopefully in a straight line, his colleagues joke, get out

0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:17.359
<v Speaker 1>the corn and put up the rye. He's known around

0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:20.480
<v Speaker 1>the Capitol as a bottle of day man. George serves

0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:23.200
<v Speaker 1>him a tall glass of his special elixir all the

0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:28.120
<v Speaker 1>way to the brim and the crazy thing. Rumor had

0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:30.280
<v Speaker 1>it that he was one of the most eloquent speakers

0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:31.240
<v Speaker 1>on the House floor.

0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:34.919
<v Speaker 4>I would like to make an inquiry to the Senate

0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:40.160
<v Speaker 4>for the purpose of understanding just the scope of this resolution.

0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:45.080
<v Speaker 1>John Nance Garner. He would later become Speaker of the

0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:48.360
<v Speaker 1>House and then Vice President of the United States under FDR.

0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:52.119
<v Speaker 1>Add this guide to the list of lushes that surrounded

0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:55.639
<v Speaker 1>Mabel Walker Willebrandt as she tried to do her job.

0:18:57.200 --> 0:19:00.840
<v Speaker 1>Back in George's office, the boys are getting comfortable this

0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:04.840
<v Speaker 1>fully operational speakeas he is home to a secret congressional

0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:08.119
<v Speaker 1>drinking club. They even have a name for themselves, the

0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:13.159
<v Speaker 1>Barflies Association or BFA for short. Washington sure loves a

0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:14.080
<v Speaker 1>three letter bureau.

0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:16.480
<v Speaker 6>We had a whole closet full of alcohol there he'd

0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:19.200
<v Speaker 6>sell to everyone, and also that people could come down

0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:21.119
<v Speaker 6>and play cards with him. Mind you, this is a

0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:23.399
<v Speaker 6>guy with a third grade education, and yet he was

0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:24.479
<v Speaker 6>enormously charming.

0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:26.040
<v Speaker 1>That's Garrett Peck again.

0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:28.280
<v Speaker 6>He was on a first name basis with all these

0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:31.280
<v Speaker 6>different congressmen and they liked him. He knew how to

0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:33.040
<v Speaker 6>put all the congressmen at ease. They had to sit

0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:35.000
<v Speaker 6>there and talk politics. They could just come down and

0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:36.960
<v Speaker 6>shoot the breeze with him and play some poker.

0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:46.399
<v Speaker 1>At George's office. The nights are late. Sometimes George comes home,

0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:52.919
<v Speaker 1>sometimes he doesn't. Sometimes the party continues elsewhere outside the Capitol,

0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:56.200
<v Speaker 1>like on this particular night, as we followed George from

0:19:56.240 --> 0:19:59.240
<v Speaker 1>the House Office building to a Victorian townhouse on a

0:19:59.280 --> 0:20:04.280
<v Speaker 1>tree lined just blocks from the White House. This is

0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:07.840
<v Speaker 1>K Street and the house is made of green limestone

0:20:08.119 --> 0:20:11.520
<v Speaker 1>with one big magnolia tree out front. It has a

0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:16.840
<v Speaker 1>nickname the Little green House. Every night, the Little Greenhouse

0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:21.320
<v Speaker 1>is full of men smoking, playing poker, and you guessed it, drinking.

0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:24.679
<v Speaker 1>There's always plenty of liquor on hand, the best stuff,

0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:27.960
<v Speaker 1>thanks to cases streaming in on wells fargo wagons driven

0:20:28.000 --> 0:20:31.920
<v Speaker 1>by armed guards. The regulars were men in high places,

0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:36.679
<v Speaker 1>George's lawmaking pals, sure, but also the Prohibition Commissioner, the

0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:43.520
<v Speaker 1>Attorney General, and even on occasion, the President himself. George

0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:47.040
<v Speaker 1>didn't supply the Little Greenhouse, but he was a welcome guest,

0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:51.480
<v Speaker 1>along with several of his bootlegging compatriots, including the most

0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:55.600
<v Speaker 1>notorious bootlegger of all, the bald guy in the resplendent suit,

0:20:56.119 --> 0:21:02.600
<v Speaker 1>George Remus. The Little Greenhouse was where guys like George

0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:06.000
<v Speaker 1>Remis could ask for favors, like for a big stack

0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:09.399
<v Speaker 1>of permits that gave them access to some booze. You see,

0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:12.560
<v Speaker 1>under prohibition law there were still allowances made for a

0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:15.439
<v Speaker 1>few kinds of alcohol. It was permitted for sale for

0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:19.200
<v Speaker 1>religious ceremonies and medical purposes as long as you had

0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:22.399
<v Speaker 1>a permit. And there was one regular at the Little

0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:26.000
<v Speaker 1>Greenhouse who had bags stuffed with those permits and could

0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:29.120
<v Speaker 1>fix it up for bootleggers. He was, in fact, one

0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:32.320
<v Speaker 1>of George Remas's pals. He was the man with black

0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:35.600
<v Speaker 1>wire glasses and a bushy mustache standing in a corner

0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:38.280
<v Speaker 1>of the room. It was a face that Mabel Walker

0:21:38.320 --> 0:21:41.520
<v Speaker 1>Willebrandt would have known well because he was a doj

0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:47.320
<v Speaker 1>man named Jess Smith. See. Jess was the right hand

0:21:47.400 --> 0:21:50.320
<v Speaker 1>man of the Attorney General, a fixer for the entire

0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:54.600
<v Speaker 1>Department of Justice, and his office was literally next door

0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:58.280
<v Speaker 1>to Mabels. And Jess was always happy to oblige the

0:21:58.280 --> 0:22:01.199
<v Speaker 1>fellows he met in the Little Greenhouse. It seemed like

0:22:01.280 --> 0:22:05.040
<v Speaker 1>Jess almost relished undermining Mabel's work. He was happy to

0:22:05.080 --> 0:22:07.760
<v Speaker 1>give out permits and even make promises of immunity to

0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:12.000
<v Speaker 1>loads of bootleggers like Remus, happily handing him wads of

0:22:12.040 --> 0:22:16.080
<v Speaker 1>cash in return. But all this wheeling and dealing was

0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:18.960
<v Speaker 1>about to catch up with Jess Smith, and it was

0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:22.320
<v Speaker 1>only a matter of time before Mabel caught wind of

0:22:22.480 --> 0:22:32.639
<v Speaker 1>all his shenanigans. In May of nineteen twenty three, a

0:22:32.640 --> 0:22:36.480
<v Speaker 1>few months after her big legal win, Mabel Walker willebrand

0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:40.280
<v Speaker 1>had big plans. She was going to take a vacation,

0:22:41.200 --> 0:22:45.080
<v Speaker 1>and she deserved it. Mabel was still on cloud nine

0:22:45.119 --> 0:22:48.240
<v Speaker 1>over her Supreme Court win. She wrote to her parents.

0:22:48.160 --> 0:22:50.359
<v Speaker 5>It was a gorgeous victory and one of which I

0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:52.760
<v Speaker 5>am prouder than of anything I've done so far.

0:22:53.640 --> 0:22:56.640
<v Speaker 1>And months after the Supreme Court decision, Mabel actually went

0:22:56.720 --> 0:23:00.480
<v Speaker 1>after George Remas again, and this time she ailed him

0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:03.560
<v Speaker 1>on the tax evasion charges. This case had been a

0:23:03.600 --> 0:23:08.040
<v Speaker 1>simple one conviction in no time flat. Yep, George was

0:23:08.080 --> 0:23:11.040
<v Speaker 1>headed to the slammer, and not only him, Willie Harror

0:23:11.040 --> 0:23:14.359
<v Speaker 1>had been convicted of breaking tax law too. Willie was

0:23:14.520 --> 0:23:17.760
<v Speaker 1>also going to prison. It had taken some careful maneuvering

0:23:17.800 --> 0:23:21.399
<v Speaker 1>and some patience, but Mabel had lined him up and

0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:25.080
<v Speaker 1>knocked him down. So she was in a mood to celebrate.

0:23:25.359 --> 0:23:27.840
<v Speaker 1>Her bags were packed. She was headed west for a

0:23:27.840 --> 0:23:30.000
<v Speaker 1>few days of R and R, you know, a little

0:23:30.040 --> 0:23:33.679
<v Speaker 1>me time in those ice baths. Mabel was just about

0:23:33.680 --> 0:23:39.080
<v Speaker 1>out the door when her phone rang, the Attorney General

0:23:39.119 --> 0:23:42.639
<v Speaker 1>on the line with news about her colleague Jess Smith.

0:23:43.359 --> 0:23:46.560
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, that guy at the office with the weird mustache.

0:23:46.760 --> 0:23:49.240
<v Speaker 1>What about him could possibly warrant a call from the

0:23:49.280 --> 0:23:53.080
<v Speaker 1>Attorney General? Well. She recalls that the Attorney General and

0:23:53.320 --> 0:23:57.160
<v Speaker 1>Jess are pretty buddy buddy. They even share an apartment

0:23:57.240 --> 0:24:00.600
<v Speaker 1>at the Wardman Park Inn. It's the swank kest place

0:24:00.680 --> 0:24:04.199
<v Speaker 1>in town, with its white gloved bell hops, chandeliers the

0:24:04.240 --> 0:24:08.000
<v Speaker 1>size of Merry Go rounds, and gold plated atrium. It

0:24:08.040 --> 0:24:12.320
<v Speaker 1>was a hotel hotspot and home to DC's upper crust,

0:24:12.760 --> 0:24:16.520
<v Speaker 1>a place for meetings and soares would go on into

0:24:16.560 --> 0:24:19.760
<v Speaker 1>the night. He tells her that in the wee hours

0:24:19.800 --> 0:24:23.840
<v Speaker 1>of last night, May nineteenth, nineteen twenty three, a gunshot

0:24:23.960 --> 0:24:28.840
<v Speaker 1>rang out across the hotel's sixth floor. It came from

0:24:28.840 --> 0:24:34.000
<v Speaker 1>a corner suite, the Attorney General's own apartment, the very

0:24:34.040 --> 0:24:38.119
<v Speaker 1>one he shares with Jess Smith, as fate would have it,

0:24:38.400 --> 0:24:42.000
<v Speaker 1>Directly below Darty's sixth floor suite lives the director of

0:24:42.040 --> 0:24:46.159
<v Speaker 1>the fed's brand spank anew Bureau of Investigation, which is

0:24:46.200 --> 0:24:50.199
<v Speaker 1>the predecessor to the FBI. Moments after the gunshot, the

0:24:50.240 --> 0:24:53.200
<v Speaker 1>director of the bureau is on the scene with I'm

0:24:53.240 --> 0:24:58.600
<v Speaker 1>assuming a very bad case of BedHead. The bureau director

0:24:58.800 --> 0:25:01.520
<v Speaker 1>enters the suite to find a body twisted on the floor.

0:25:01.680 --> 0:25:04.119
<v Speaker 1>The man on the floor is wearing black rimmed glasses

0:25:04.440 --> 0:25:09.679
<v Speaker 1>and a bushy mustache. It's not Attorney General Dharty. The

0:25:09.720 --> 0:25:12.960
<v Speaker 1>guy is in his pajamas, lying on the blood soaked carpet.

0:25:13.440 --> 0:25:16.159
<v Speaker 1>There's a hole shot through his right temple, and his

0:25:16.280 --> 0:25:19.199
<v Speaker 1>head is in a garbage can a top ashes of

0:25:19.280 --> 0:25:24.159
<v Speaker 1>burned papers. The man isn't famous, he isn't even a politician,

0:25:24.680 --> 0:25:27.320
<v Speaker 1>and his death is quickly ruled by the Bureau director

0:25:27.920 --> 0:25:32.320
<v Speaker 1>as a suicide. But things don't really add up, like

0:25:32.680 --> 0:25:35.600
<v Speaker 1>how on earth could a man shoot himself and have

0:25:35.720 --> 0:25:39.959
<v Speaker 1>his head end up inside a wastebasket. Why was the

0:25:40.000 --> 0:25:43.520
<v Speaker 1>weapon a gun, missing from the scene when the cops arrived,

0:25:43.960 --> 0:25:46.840
<v Speaker 1>And why was Jess carrying around his will in his

0:25:47.000 --> 0:25:51.879
<v Speaker 1>pocket to be magically discovered by police hours later like

0:25:51.920 --> 0:25:56.320
<v Speaker 1>a gift on Christmas Morning To an analytical mind like Mabel's.

0:25:56.760 --> 0:26:00.800
<v Speaker 1>The pieces weren't adding up until as the dig deeper

0:26:00.840 --> 0:26:05.680
<v Speaker 1>into Smith's stuff, they discover evidence that Jess Smith may

0:26:05.720 --> 0:26:10.840
<v Speaker 1>have been at the center of something quite criminal. Turns out,

0:26:10.880 --> 0:26:13.800
<v Speaker 1>Smith was carrying a long list of bootleggers from across

0:26:13.800 --> 0:26:17.919
<v Speaker 1>the country. George Remis Yep, he was on there. Also,

0:26:18.160 --> 0:26:20.960
<v Speaker 1>Jess Smith had something that was a little unusual for

0:26:21.000 --> 0:26:25.119
<v Speaker 1>an employee of the Department of Justice. Wads and wads

0:26:25.280 --> 0:26:34.000
<v Speaker 1>of cash back at the DOJ, Rumors are flying around

0:26:34.080 --> 0:26:38.920
<v Speaker 1>the office about what exactly was behind Smith's quote unquote suicide.

0:26:38.960 --> 0:26:41.239
<v Speaker 1>Maybe Smith and someone at the Department of Justice had

0:26:41.240 --> 0:26:44.320
<v Speaker 1>a falling out, and maybe Smith threatened to expose the

0:26:44.320 --> 0:26:47.800
<v Speaker 1>corruption that was going on behind closed doors. Maybe George

0:26:47.880 --> 0:26:51.320
<v Speaker 1>Remis was getting back at Smith after his arrest. A

0:26:51.400 --> 0:26:53.720
<v Speaker 1>hit job by a big bootlegger wouldn't be out of

0:26:53.720 --> 0:26:58.400
<v Speaker 1>the question. Now. Mabel and Jess, they weren't tight, even

0:26:58.480 --> 0:27:01.199
<v Speaker 1>though Jess's office was right now to hers at the DOJ.

0:27:01.960 --> 0:27:05.080
<v Speaker 1>She knew that Jess pushed papers and dealt with permits,

0:27:05.359 --> 0:27:08.320
<v Speaker 1>but she didn't know what Jess did with those permits,

0:27:08.960 --> 0:27:12.199
<v Speaker 1>and Mabels certainly didn't know that Jess was chummy with

0:27:12.280 --> 0:27:20.720
<v Speaker 1>George Remis. Her mind was reeling after the phone call,

0:27:20.840 --> 0:27:24.479
<v Speaker 1>Attorney General Dharty summoned Mabel to his office. He was

0:27:24.520 --> 0:27:27.640
<v Speaker 1>probably smelling a bit suspicious himself after a late night

0:27:27.680 --> 0:27:30.359
<v Speaker 1>at the Little Greenhouse. Was that a hint of oak

0:27:30.480 --> 0:27:33.840
<v Speaker 1>aged corn whiskey under the reek of cigar smoke? I

0:27:33.840 --> 0:27:37.080
<v Speaker 1>imagine him dramatically spinning around in his chair to pass

0:27:37.119 --> 0:27:41.879
<v Speaker 1>along some unfortunate news. Yes, it was true. Jess was

0:27:41.880 --> 0:27:44.720
<v Speaker 1>in the pockets of every big time bootlegger in America,

0:27:44.880 --> 0:27:48.440
<v Speaker 1>running his operations from out of his DOJ office right

0:27:48.520 --> 0:27:52.240
<v Speaker 1>next to Mabels. Not only that, Jess was involved in

0:27:52.280 --> 0:27:56.920
<v Speaker 1>another totally different but equally massive bribery scandal for completely

0:27:56.960 --> 0:27:59.959
<v Speaker 1>different crimes. Turns out there was a lot of corrupt

0:28:00.320 --> 0:28:03.919
<v Speaker 1>under that mustache. Yep. Darty admitted to Mabel that the

0:28:03.960 --> 0:28:07.480
<v Speaker 1>DOJ was one big old shit show, which is why

0:28:07.680 --> 0:28:11.560
<v Speaker 1>he said he would totally understand if Mabel wanted to

0:28:11.640 --> 0:28:16.520
<v Speaker 1>hand in her resignation, And as you can probably imagine,

0:28:16.560 --> 0:28:24.280
<v Speaker 1>Mabel went bananas. Vacation totally canceled. Basically, while she had

0:28:24.320 --> 0:28:27.560
<v Speaker 1>been fighting Remus in court, her office neighbor had apparently

0:28:27.680 --> 0:28:31.080
<v Speaker 1>been at Remas's beck and call, and now Darty was

0:28:31.160 --> 0:28:35.920
<v Speaker 1>asking her if she wanted to step down. Mabel had

0:28:36.040 --> 0:28:39.520
<v Speaker 1>no intention of quitting, and she told her boss exactly

0:28:39.600 --> 0:28:43.760
<v Speaker 1>that her war was just beginning. She had her Supreme

0:28:43.800 --> 0:28:48.000
<v Speaker 1>Court win, and she had this too. George Remis was

0:28:48.040 --> 0:28:51.840
<v Speaker 1>headed to a federal penitentiary in Atlanta, so was Willie Harr,

0:28:52.320 --> 0:28:57.680
<v Speaker 1>the country's biggest bootleggers were going down, and Mabel was

0:28:57.720 --> 0:28:59.720
<v Speaker 1>going to make sure both were going to do hard

0:28:59.800 --> 0:29:03.280
<v Speaker 1>time like any other criminal. As Remus was making furious

0:29:03.320 --> 0:29:06.680
<v Speaker 1>attempts to get his conviction overturned, Mabel went straight to

0:29:06.760 --> 0:29:10.840
<v Speaker 1>President Coolidge to smash Remus's hopes, writing, I am.

0:29:10.840 --> 0:29:13.720
<v Speaker 5>Of the emphatic opinion that no respite should be given

0:29:13.800 --> 0:29:16.720
<v Speaker 5>George Remas or any of the defendants convicted with him.

0:29:17.080 --> 0:29:20.240
<v Speaker 5>George Remas and his group of co conspirators are defiant,

0:29:20.480 --> 0:29:24.320
<v Speaker 5>dangerous law breakers. He has exhibited a rare ability to

0:29:24.360 --> 0:29:28.400
<v Speaker 5>surround himself as seemingly respectable and unimportant citizens while he

0:29:28.560 --> 0:29:31.960
<v Speaker 5>hides behind their operations. In my opinion, it would be

0:29:32.000 --> 0:29:34.640
<v Speaker 5>a grave mistake to treat these defendants in any manner

0:29:34.720 --> 0:29:37.800
<v Speaker 5>differently than the thousands of offenders convicted of much lesser

0:29:37.840 --> 0:29:39.440
<v Speaker 5>crimes under the liquor laws.

0:29:40.040 --> 0:29:44.080
<v Speaker 1>She got her wish. Remus was locked away behind bars

0:29:44.160 --> 0:29:48.080
<v Speaker 1>in Atlanta, Georgia. But then one morning a few months later,

0:29:48.200 --> 0:29:50.640
<v Speaker 1>Mabel got a call from an agent down south. He

0:29:50.680 --> 0:29:53.000
<v Speaker 1>had a little update on how her pal Remas was

0:29:53.040 --> 0:29:56.480
<v Speaker 1>doing down there in Atlanta. Turns out, old Georgie Remas

0:29:56.960 --> 0:30:01.840
<v Speaker 1>was doing pretty good. Sure George Remas was technically in prison,

0:30:02.160 --> 0:30:04.240
<v Speaker 1>just in the part of the prison that was more

0:30:04.400 --> 0:30:08.560
<v Speaker 1>like I don't know Versailles. Thanks to his connections, George

0:30:08.640 --> 0:30:12.080
<v Speaker 1>was living like Marie Antoinette. He had his own quarters,

0:30:12.240 --> 0:30:15.720
<v Speaker 1>his own kitchen, his own private bath. He dined separate

0:30:15.720 --> 0:30:18.720
<v Speaker 1>from the rest of the inmates except for one guy.

0:30:19.400 --> 0:30:22.960
<v Speaker 1>To add insult injury. His dining mate was Willie Harr.

0:30:23.640 --> 0:30:27.280
<v Speaker 1>Remas and Harr were dining each night on linen tablecloths

0:30:27.320 --> 0:30:31.440
<v Speaker 1>with fresh floral centerpieces, and playing games of high limit

0:30:31.520 --> 0:30:36.960
<v Speaker 1>poker with a minimum bet set at fifty dollars. Their

0:30:37.040 --> 0:30:40.200
<v Speaker 1>section of the Atlanta Federal Penitentiary would soon have its

0:30:40.200 --> 0:30:45.400
<v Speaker 1>own nickname, Millionaires Row, and within two years, both men

0:30:45.440 --> 0:30:50.960
<v Speaker 1>would be out to pick up right where they left off. Now,

0:30:51.160 --> 0:30:53.760
<v Speaker 1>as Mabel sank into her ice cold bath in her

0:30:53.800 --> 0:30:57.400
<v Speaker 1>DC apartment, she couldn't help but think of George Remas

0:30:57.440 --> 0:31:02.440
<v Speaker 1>dining on steak, chomping on a cigar, having the last laugh.

0:31:03.480 --> 0:31:06.479
<v Speaker 1>No matter how hard she was trying, she was really

0:31:06.560 --> 0:31:09.520
<v Speaker 1>losing her fight with the bootleggers. Not only were her

0:31:09.600 --> 0:31:13.200
<v Speaker 1>colleagues at the Justice Department worthless in supporting her, they

0:31:13.200 --> 0:31:18.480
<v Speaker 1>were actively undermining her at every turn, and that's when

0:31:18.520 --> 0:31:26.720
<v Speaker 1>the Ice Queen finally cracked. Doing things by the book

0:31:26.760 --> 0:31:29.680
<v Speaker 1>at the Department of Justice wasn't getting the job done.

0:31:29.920 --> 0:31:33.480
<v Speaker 1>Arrests convictions not only were they heart as hell to get,

0:31:33.520 --> 0:31:38.040
<v Speaker 1>they hardly meant anything when the consequences were well luxurious.

0:31:38.760 --> 0:31:42.120
<v Speaker 1>The Ice Queen's head was cold, but it was also

0:31:42.360 --> 0:31:45.880
<v Speaker 1>clear if she was ever going to get American bootleggers

0:31:45.880 --> 0:31:49.040
<v Speaker 1>and drinkers to respect the law, she was going to

0:31:49.040 --> 0:31:54.600
<v Speaker 1>have to take new measures, more extreme measures. The consequences

0:31:54.600 --> 0:32:00.440
<v Speaker 1>for breaking prohibition law would have to hurt. It's next

0:32:00.440 --> 0:32:03.800
<v Speaker 1>time on Snaffoo. He loved to show off.

0:32:04.120 --> 0:32:06.000
<v Speaker 4>If you could have the opportunity to show off his

0:32:06.440 --> 0:32:09.960
<v Speaker 4>sharp shooting skills, he would. There are rumors that he

0:32:10.000 --> 0:32:13.520
<v Speaker 4>would shoot apples at the top of people's heads. Governor

0:32:13.560 --> 0:32:17.280
<v Speaker 4>recognized the fact that if we're going to have prohbission agents,

0:32:17.320 --> 0:32:20.160
<v Speaker 4>we need people that are fearless. Richard Hart was somebody

0:32:20.160 --> 0:32:29.560
<v Speaker 4>who fit that to a tee.

0:32:29.920 --> 0:32:33.640
<v Speaker 1>Snafu is a production of iHeartRadio, Film, Nation Entertainment, and

0:32:33.720 --> 0:32:37.960
<v Speaker 1>Pacific Electric Picture Company in association with Gilded Audio. It's

0:32:38.040 --> 0:32:42.280
<v Speaker 1>executive produced by me Ed Helms Milan Papelka, Mike Falbo,

0:32:42.520 --> 0:32:46.760
<v Speaker 1>Whitney Donaldson, and Dylan Fagan. Our lead producers are Carl

0:32:46.800 --> 0:32:50.440
<v Speaker 1>Nellis and Alyssa Martino. This episode was written by Albert

0:32:50.520 --> 0:32:53.200
<v Speaker 1>Chin and Carl Nellis, with additional writing and story editing

0:32:53.200 --> 0:32:57.320
<v Speaker 1>from Alyssa Martino and Ed Helms. Additional production from Stephen Wood.

0:32:57.480 --> 0:33:00.560
<v Speaker 1>Tory Smith is our associate producer. Our story editor is

0:33:00.680 --> 0:33:04.160
<v Speaker 1>nicky Stein. Our production assistants are Nevin Callopoly and a

0:33:04.240 --> 0:33:08.120
<v Speaker 1>kimmedy Ekpo. Fact checking by Charles Richter. Our creative executive

0:33:08.160 --> 0:33:11.480
<v Speaker 1>is Brett Harris. Editing, music and sound design by Ben

0:33:11.600 --> 0:33:16.080
<v Speaker 1>Chug Engineering and technical direction by Nick Dooley Andrew Chug

0:33:16.160 --> 0:33:20.160
<v Speaker 1>is Gilded Audio's creative director. The music by Dan Rosatto.

0:33:20.880 --> 0:33:23.400
<v Speaker 1>The role of Mabel Walker will Brandt was played by

0:33:23.520 --> 0:33:27.560
<v Speaker 1>Carrie Bische. Special thanks to Alison Cohen, Daniel Welsh, and

0:33:27.720 --> 0:33:28.600
<v Speaker 1>Ben Ryzak