WEBVTT - The White Oak Shortage That Could Ruin the Bourbon Industry 0:00:10.600 --> 0:00:14.480 Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:15.920 I'm Joe Wisenthal and. 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:16.759 I'm Tracy Alloway. 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:19.120 Tracy in a new studio today. 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:20.520 I know, isn't it great? 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:22.920 If you're just listening to the podcast on the audio, 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:25.639 I guess nothing has changed. But if you're checking it 0:00:25.640 --> 0:00:30.360 out on video on YouTube, on click, take, et cetera, streaming, 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:32.040 it looks different. You should check it out. 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:34.080 Yeah, check it out for sure. I think we're leaning 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:37.919 into the sort of nineties Nickelodeon SpongeBob vibe. 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:43.480 Maybe that is a very interesting. I like that aesthetic 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:43.800 a lot. 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:44.880 After school special. 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:48.559 I am, this is an after school special, except today's 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:51.120 topic is not like really what kind of is? It's 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:53.120 kind of an after school special vibe because today we're 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:53.920 going to be talking about. 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:58.920 Alcohol, yes, okay, but not just alcohol. We're doing a 0:00:58.920 --> 0:01:02.200 supply chain episode classic, a thought supply chain episode. 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:05.400 Yes, and so, uh, you know, I don't have we 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:07.520 ever talked about the alcohol industry before. 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:08.560 I don't think we have. 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:11.559 I don't think we have either, But you know, like one, 0:01:11.680 --> 0:01:14.160 it's one of those things where it's like, okay, let 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:16.720 you go, you ask for a drink et cetera. And 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:19.360 you probably do not think too much unless you're like 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:23.080 a true connoisseur of something about what it took to 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:23.440 get there. 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:25.600 Yeah, I think that's right, and I mean, to be fair, 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:27.960 that is the case with almost all the supply chain 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:30.840 episodes that we do, which is people use these final 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:34.680 products and goods, they don't always necessarily realize what goes 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:38.440 into them until something happens there's a disruption of some sort, 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:41.240 and then suddenly everyone realizes, oh, actually you need this 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:43.679 component in order to make this thing. That I really like. 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:45.760 The other thing that I've been thinking a lot about 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:48.480 with respect to supply chains is that there seem to 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:50.760 be some issues that arise that I don't know if 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:53.320 mechanical is the right word, but where it's like you 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:56.000 can change something and maybe fixing it, like say like 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:59.960 capacity at the ports, for example. Like in theory, that's 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:04.360 seems like a sort of like human solvable problem, whereas 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:07.080 we talk about other issues that arise in which we're 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:11.080 sort of like dependent on natural phenomenon or at the 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:15.240 mercy of natural phenomenon, such as drought and say the 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:18.080 level of the water level of the Mississippi River, Like 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:20.360 there is very little that like humans can do certainly 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:22.800 in a short period of time to sort of like 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:25.519 make water levels higher when that becomes a problem. 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:28.000 Yeah, and I think for this episode, the time frame 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:30.640 is really key. And if I think back to an 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:33.360 episode that is perhaps most relevant to what we're about 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:35.120 to discuss, it's some of the ones we did with 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:38.760 Stinton Dean where we talked about lumber supply and just 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:41.800 how long it takes to actually grow the trees that 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:44.359 we use for all sorts of things, from you know, 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:46.639 housing construction being the most important one. 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:46.920 Well. 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:50.240 And so there is this supply chain tension that maybe 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:53.920 we're going to see within alcohol, specifically the world of bourbon, 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:55.920 and there are many aspects of it that are just 0:02:56.040 --> 0:03:01.720 slow moving particulate barrels building them, or the trees required 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:05.240 to you know, make the barrels, the aging processes, et cetera. 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:08.440 It's sort of like this slow moving supply chain that 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:11.440 probably many people don't really think about, but there could 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:13.720 be issues in the future, at least according to our 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:15.120 guest who will. 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:18.160 Have on this right, a slow moving supply chain crisis 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:20.520 is the theme of this particular episode. But I think 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:23.520 it is true that when you think about bourbon. Most 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:26.400 people think bourbon, Oh, it comes from corn and you know, 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:31.480 fermenting corn. Not everyone immediately thinks about the barrels that 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:33.799 it's aged and where those actually come from. 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:37.040 Are you a bourbon fan, by the way, No. 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:40.720 I am the worst alcohol drinker. I drink almost exclusively 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:41.360 light beer. 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:44.640 I try again the worst light beer, like sort of 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:47.080 like brown, like heavy alcoholic. I don't know, like once 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:49.040 every few years because I think it would be nice 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:52.360 or relaxing. Hasn't happened yet, But I am aware and 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:54.280 I respect people for whom that it is. 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:54.400 Like. 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:56.880 You know, I'm aware that that's a popular. 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:59.080 Maybe this will give us both a newfound appreciation for 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:00.560 burb exactly. 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:02.360 All right, Well, I am very excited about our guest. 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:05.000 We're going to be speaking with Kelvin Norman. He's an 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:09.600 assistant teaching professor of forestry at Penn State, and he 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:13.600 says there is a looming under the radars supply chain. 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:17.960 Maybe crisis is the right word, problem coming for the 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:22.280 bourbon industry thanks to the wood that's needed for the barrels. 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:24.120 So we're going to learn about something, you know what, 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:26.560 I'm excited about too. This is not like a crisis 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:28.960 in the public view yet, so maybe we can help 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:30.919 get ahead of something and maybe it'll never become a 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:33.440 crisis as opposed to say, like, oh, how did this happen? 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:35.400 A bunch of people are going to plant trees because 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:36.440 of this episode. 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:38.680 Let's hope. So all right, Kelvin, thank you so much 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:40.080 for coming on Odd Lots. 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:42.640 Thank you for having me on. I'm super excited talking 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:44.719 about trees. So love talking about trees. 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:48.040 As an after school specialist, I would hope that an 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:52.240 assistant teaching professor of forestry likes to talk about trees, 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:55.599 but I am excited about talking trees as well. 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:58.120 Well, let's just start with like, can you explain the 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:02.120 role of the barrel specifically within the bourbon making process. 0:05:02.640 --> 0:05:05.480 Yeah, so this is where it gets really fun. So 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:08.800 bourbon is an American you know, liquor. It's like our 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:13.480 true native liquor. It's fifty one percent corn that's distilled 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:16.080 three times and put into barrels at eighty proof and 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:18.120 that has to sit in white oak. Once you used 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:21.400 once charred white oak barrels for a couple of years. 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:23.880 The reason you have to use white oak, you can 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:26.279 use a lot of like wood to make barrels. 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:28.080 It's a really old art. 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:29.960 But it has to sit for a couple of years, 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:31.880 and so you have to use white oak because white oak, 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:35.200 you know, wood fibers are just like long straws, and 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:37.599 if you put liquids in those straws, you can actually 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:40.400 drink through straw the straws. You know, when you when 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:43.200 you're doing your forestry degree, we do this really fun 0:05:43.240 --> 0:05:45.920 thing where you drink water through white oak and red oak. 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:48.880 So red oak works just like a straw, really fun, 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:51.400 kind of nerdy. But if you try to use white 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:53.520 oak as a straw, it doesn't work because white oak 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:54.320 has these little. 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:57.120 Bubbles in the wood that just develop after the tree 0:05:57.200 --> 0:05:59.760 is done using those straws to move water up and 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:03.840 down the tree, and so those bubbles prevent liquid from 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:08.280 escaping from the barrel itself, which is really handy when 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:10.400 you're trying to age something for like ten or twelve 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:12.520 years or three or four years. So there are only 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:15.320 three woods that you can really use to make barrels 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:17.520 that age things for a long time. There's French yoak, 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:19.440 Hungarian oak, and white oak. 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:23.640 If you want to get botanacle's quercus elbow for those 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:24.880 of you following along at home. 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:25.359 Thank you. 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:29.160 So we use white oak here in America, you legally 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:30.760 have to use it, and you can only use that 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:33.919 barrel once. After they use the bourbon barrel, they usually 0:06:33.920 --> 0:06:36.480 sell it off to other, you know, liquor distillers because 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:38.359 the barrels are expensive and very good. 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:40.720 This is already one of those episodes that I can 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:42.560 tell is get to produce a lot of facts that 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:45.400 I'm going to mention at parties and be very popular. 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:48.200 Like you know, it's sort of like just bringing up random. 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:51.680 Things to randomly saying quircus alba all the time. Okay, Well, 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:55.359 on that note, white oak has this special property that 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:59.640 you were just describing. What's the actual distribution of white 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:01.880 oak in America? Like how common is it? 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:04.720 So it depends on where you are. 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:06.960 So white oak is it an Eastern US species, So 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:09.440 you can find it from like New England kind of 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:12.240 Connecticut area all the way over to Minnesota down to 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:16.920 Tennessee and Florida. But to make a barrel, and this 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:19.080 is this is going to sound really silly, you have 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:20.800 to have a really high quality piece of wood. If 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:23.120 you have a branch or a hole in that barrel, 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:25.320 it's not going to make a good barrel. So you 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:28.400 need really high quality white oak. So we really only 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:31.000 get we call them stave quality because that's the piece 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:32.440 of what you use to make a barrel. 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:33.000 As a stave. 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:36.560 You only really get stave quality wood from like New 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:40.400 York down into Georgia. I've heard of staves coming from 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:44.520 like southern Minnesota, but like not really, so you're looking 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:46.880 really central, like the Apps, the Appalachians. 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:49.600 Just a real quick question before a longer question. But 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:51.680 you mentioned like how much is a barrel, like if 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:53.960 I wanted to not you know, just the wood itself, 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:56.000 how much is that? 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:59.000 That is a really great question and I can't get 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:00.720 that information at a barrel makers. 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:03.200 I can tell you if you try to buy it. 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:06.160 There's a distillery to me and they will sell use 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:09.160 barrels for like one hundred and twenty bucks. So I 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:11.480 couldn't tell you what a what a barrel costs right 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:16.240 off the block. Coopbridge, you know, or making barrels, it's 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:18.080 like a it's like a dark art. You know, they 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:21.000 have a lot of secrets. Every Coopbridge does their you know, 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:23.800 barrel making a little bit differently. You know, they age 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:28.600 wood differently for various distilleris so some distillery structure episode. 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:31.000 Yeah, we got to get a coopron next time. 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:34.400 Oh, there's not many of them. There's not many of them, 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:35.320 but you can find them. 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:40.960 Why should we be concerned about the supply of white oak? 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:44.280 Okay, so we have one tree, we have one tree species. 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:47.760 It technically a comodity, but unlike you know, pine lumber, 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:50.600 it's not you know, spruce and fur and ou interchangeable. 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:52.280 You know, you can only get it from white oak, 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:56.080 and white oak has very specific growing requirements. And you 0:08:56.280 --> 0:08:58.360 we're looking for the superstar white oak, so you have 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:01.000 to have white oak on good site it's growing well 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:04.240 and where we have a lot right now. But when 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:07.120 we look to the next generation of white oak, there's 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:10.120 very little. We're looking at like a seventy seven percent 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:13.920 population decline if nothing changes today. If we take all 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:16.440 of our seedling and saplings, of our little oaks that 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:18.200 we have on the ground, we put those up in 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:21.160 the overstory, seventy seven percent of the trees that we 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:24.000 have today are getby you know, population decline. 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:27.640 So maybe just to back up to illustrate that point, 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:29.880 can you walk us through the process of where a 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:34.840 barrel actually comes from. So who owns the white oak trees? 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:37.400 When do they decide to cut them down? And then 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:40.880 how does that whole process of creating the barrel actually happen. 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:45.520 Yeah, so Tracy follow me on this one. 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:47.079 What can you say about an acorn? 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:51.480 It's small, but it grows a large tree. 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:55.520 Yeah, in a nutshell, it's an oak tree. Very so 0:09:57.400 --> 0:09:59.720 we don't get a lot of forester jokes, but they 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:04.839 you slowly, so that I try. 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:08.200 So you start with to start with a white oak, 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:10.240 we got to go back like one hundred years. You 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:12.320 start with an acorn or a stump sprout from a 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:15.560 tree slowly that recruits, So it grows from an acorn 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:19.160 into a sapling, into a pole size tree, into a 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:21.920 stave quality tree. That takes one hundred years, and you 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:25.200 have incredible mortality. So we have we'll start with like 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:27.680 a couple of thousand ceilings and we'll end with like 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:31.000 two hundred trees. And those trees are there for a 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:34.480 long time. So the odds of a tree becoming a ceiling, 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:38.440 an acorn becoming a tree super low, and then to 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:40.680 become a barrel. So if you have a forest of 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:44.840 really wonderful white oak. There's a stave buyer. It's one 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:47.760 person for the mill. They'll go around, they have some 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:50.880 of them even have specific counties and like specific areas 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:53.200 that they know good wood comes from. Because you're looking 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:57.080 for super quality trees, like we're again we're talking the 0:10:57.160 --> 0:10:59.280 NFL of trees. It's got to be super straight. There 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:02.640 can't be any turn in that tree at all. So 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:04.880 they'll go around, they'll cruise the entire stand looking for 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:08.240 trees that they want. They'll select those trees, and then 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:11.080 when the harvest comes through, those trees get treated differently 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:13.240 and they get taken out and sent right to the 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:15.440 stave mil Sometimes they'll get cut up at a saw 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:18.000 mill and the stave mail buys them there, but usually 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:33.559 they're out there they're picking trees on woodlocks. 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:40.559 So right now we have plenty of white oak and 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:44.560 where there's not an acute crisis, but it's your projection 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:47.840 in terms of the sort of acreage, the volume of 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:50.600 these white oak trees right now, how much was that 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:54.559 I don't know if the word is planned or active 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:58.200 decisions that were made decades and decades and decades in 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:01.960 the past versus sort of a more emergent phenomenon, and 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:04.240 we're blessed with something that was sort of sort of 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:07.560 emerged over time, but that now at this point needs 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:08.840 more active management. 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:11.480 Oh, Joe, it's a great question, and it's a really 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:14.880 fun discussion that we have at the bar after forestry conferences. 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:17.160 So we have a glut of white oak right now, 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:21.080 you know, following farm abandonment in the Great Depression. For 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:23.320 those of you who are not foresters, when you're a forester, 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:25.560 you have to think really long term because what you're 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:27.960 doing today impacts a landscape for the next hundred years. 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:30.240 So when we look back one hundred years, so we're 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:32.920 looking at Great Depression, is when most of these forests start. 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:36.440 You know, you get farm field abandonment. White oak really 0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:38.800 likes that sun and the semi shade they came with 0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:41.080 that as well as you know, back in the twenties, 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:43.040 people ran, you know, they did a lot of fire. 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:45.200 You know, they're out there cutting down trees, and we 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:47.960 had this like dappled shade condition that was really great 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:51.199 for white oak. So I would say we're probably you know, 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:52.760 the amount of white oak that we had today is 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:55.560 probably a little bit extra than we would expect. But 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:58.920 the decline that we're seeing is not a result of 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:01.920 you know, there was just too much. It's the management 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:05.920 has changed and we're not managing it correctly to get 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:06.760 that white oak back. 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:10.560 So it's a totally an emergent phenomenon, but it sounds 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:13.880 like it was came from things that were not necessarily intentional. 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:16.400 But in a way, we owe this abundance to the 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:17.160 Great Depression. 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:20.800 Yeah, and then we also have to look back, even 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:24.079 you know, farther back, because you know, this continent has 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:27.079 been peopled for a couple of you know, thousands of 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:30.280 thousands of years, and so those peoples managed this landscape 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:33.560 for a really long time, using fire and harvesting timber 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:36.000 and deer and all kinds of stuff, and they helped 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:38.079 you know, they liked white oak because white oak has 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:40.880 a tasty acorn if you like to eat acorns. I'm 0:13:40.880 --> 0:13:42.200 not a huge fan of it. I think it's kind 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:44.760 of a cultural thing, but you know, the people who 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:47.360 lived here before Europeans liked white oak, and they managed 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:49.920 landscapes for white oak and those the trees and the 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:52.480 white oak family, and so they helped shape the landscape 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:54.720 and the trees for white, you know, to be more 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:55.480 white oak friendly. 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:57.680 So this is something I wanted to ask you about 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:01.440 because this is something I learned from buying that house 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:03.800 in Connecticut, which is a lot of those sort of 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:09.240 Eastern states used to look very park like because Native Americans. 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:12.559 I see you shaking your head, but you know, like 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:15.720 more park like than they look now because Native Americans 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:18.440 would burn some of the scrub and brush in order 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:21.160 to manage the land. Talk to us about a little 0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:23.720 bit more about that component of it, like what does 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:27.200 fire actually mean to the white oak and why has 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:30.400 that process changed since the Great Depression. 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:33.800 So you know a lot of people think trees, trees 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:36.600 don't like fire. Actually it's not true. Some trees really 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:39.640 love fire. So white oak is kind of it's not 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:42.440 fire dependent, which is when a tree only regenerates after 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:44.880 a fire, but it likes fire. So what white oak 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:48.040 does is it when it grows, it starts putting nutrients 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:50.280 down into the root system and then it grows up. 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:53.160 A lot of other trees will just go straight up 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:54.880 because you know, when you're a tree, you need sunlight 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:56.800 and so to get someone you got to go up. 0:14:57.120 --> 0:14:59.320 But white oak goes down and then it goes up. 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:01.600 So if you get a couple of fires in there, 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:04.960 that kills out trees that can't take fire. So you 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:07.920 your maples don't like fire, you know, kind of your 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:10.120 ash and that kind of stuff don't like fire. 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:11.960 So you get a couple of burns through and then 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:13.040 the white oak comes up. 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:16.000 Wayook is pretty fire resistant when it gets to you know, 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:18.120 a smaller you know, a smaller size, so after it 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:20.640 gets top kilt, it's probably gonna survive most surface fires. 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:25.360 And then you get these beautiful white oaks stands. We 0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:28.360 you know, recently in management have suppressed fire because we're 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:29.840 like fire bed don't like fire. 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:34.200 In the southeast, they never really stopped burning. They had 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:35.240 a culture of burning. 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:38.320 But here in the Northeast it's very difficult to get 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:40.360 prescribed fire on the ground, which makes white oak regeneration 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:43.680 very difficult. But there are other things that are probably 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:45.000 there are other problems. It's not just a lack of 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:47.080 fire in the landscape. You know, this is this is 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:50.160 one of those you know, all unhappy families are different 0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:52.240 in their own way, and all happy families are the same. 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:54.760 So this kind of leads to my next question. But 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:57.320 I wanted to pick up on something that Tracy already 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:01.840 asked about, but further to like the current economics of 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:06.240 this acreage, like who owns this acreage? And for them, 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:09.640 I have to imagine like the Bourbon or the Cooper 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:13.720 the Cooper market and leading into the Bourbon market. I'm 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:17.960 assuming it's not a massive slice of like their own economics. 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:19.840 And so can you talk a little bit about like 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:22.720 who are these companies that sort of like own a 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:25.960 lot of this acreage and what are they what are 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:28.640 most of them optimizing for because I assume it's not 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:31.000 optimizing for the Bourbon market specifically. 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:33.560 Yeah, so most of the land in the East United 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:36.480 States is owned up by companies, but private landowners. Ok 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:40.400 so like the three of us we represent, like in Pennsylvania, 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:43.360 that's seventy percent of landownership. Interesting, is just like random 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:47.080 people in their backyards. Which is why you know, doing 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:50.120 you know, very good force management is difficult. It takes 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:52.680 money upfront and then you're not going to see financial 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:55.600 return for one hundred years. So the odds is like 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:57.880 that's the really fun thing when you do for us. 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:00.320 She's like, I'll never see this stand again. I'm I'm 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:02.360 doing this not for me, not for the person after me, 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:03.600 but three people after me. 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:06.040 This is kind of like I think, why endowments, like 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:10.400 don't they like trees, like like the Yale Endowment, because 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:12.600 like these are like assets that are really like not 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:14.480 on typical market cycles. 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:18.520 Yeah, there there are some large you know, timber investment 0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:21.320 companies and real estate investment companies. Teamos in Ritail owned 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:24.080 forest land, but the East Coast has been you know, 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:26.360 people buy Europeans for a long time, so it's difficult 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:28.639 to get that land. You know, there's there's not a 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:30.800 lot of it out there that large companies can buy up. 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:33.480 And when you get into the Southeast they buy main 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:37.520 there's a lot of like softwood, So southern yellow pine 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:40.159 is the biggest agricultural export of the Southeast, and they 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:43.280 grew a lot of pine down there. It's that's very 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:45.879 easy to manage. White oak is difficult to manage. You 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:47.480 have to put a lot of time, thought and effort 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:49.679 and money into it and then you see the return 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:53.600 way down the line. So the economics from the system 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:56.200 that we have don't make a lot of sense. Because 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:57.960 if you go out and you do you know, invasive 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:00.960 species management, which you have to do regenerate. It costs 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:03.320 you eighty dollars an acre today and then you don't 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:06.440 get to recruit that value financially for one hundred years. 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:08.639 You might get to recruit it and that you're harvesting 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:11.000 deer or you're out there walking your dog or you know, 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:13.320 you and your family are having a good time on 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:17.280 the landscape, but there's not really a financial value for that, 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:20.479 whereas like doing the management costs money today. 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:21.920 Yeah. 0:18:21.960 --> 0:18:23.840 So just on this note, I mean, you walked us 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:26.600 through how the economics don't really work. But I have 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:30.280 to imagine the people that have the biggest stakeholders in 0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:34.119 growing white oaks should be the bourbon makers. Are bourbon 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:37.240 makers able to do anything about this? Can they plant 0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:38.920 their own forest for instance? 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:41.960 Yeah, so the bourbon makers are definitely, they definitely take 0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:43.640 a note of this. There's a thing called the White 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:47.280 Oak Initiative, which is a partnership of the Forest Service, 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:51.560 you know, various state governments. They own land and the 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:54.560 bourbon makers coop bridges and they're helping to you know, 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:57.600 try to raise the profile of this issue and you know, 0:18:57.600 --> 0:18:59.960