1 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 2 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenthal and. 3 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 2: I'm Tracy Alloway. 4 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 1: Tracy in a new studio today. 5 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 2: I know, isn't it great? 6 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:22,920 Speaker 1: If you're just listening to the podcast on the audio, 7 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:25,639 Speaker 1: I guess nothing has changed. But if you're checking it 8 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: out on video on YouTube, on click, take, et cetera, streaming, 9 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: it looks different. You should check it out. 10 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, check it out for sure. I think we're leaning 11 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,919 Speaker 2: into the sort of nineties Nickelodeon SpongeBob vibe. 12 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:43,480 Speaker 1: Maybe that is a very interesting. I like that aesthetic 13 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: a lot. 14 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 2: After school special. 15 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,559 Speaker 1: I am, this is an after school special, except today's 16 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: topic is not like really what kind of is? It's 17 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: kind of an after school special vibe because today we're 18 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: going to be talking about. 19 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 2: Alcohol, yes, okay, but not just alcohol. We're doing a 20 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 2: supply chain episode classic, a thought supply chain episode. 21 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,400 Speaker 1: Yes, and so, uh, you know, I don't have we 22 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: ever talked about the alcohol industry before. 23 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 2: I don't think we have. 24 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:11,559 Speaker 1: I don't think we have either, But you know, like one, 25 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: it's one of those things where it's like, okay, let 26 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: you go, you ask for a drink et cetera. And 27 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: you probably do not think too much unless you're like 28 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: a true connoisseur of something about what it took to 29 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: get there. 30 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right, and I mean, to be fair, 31 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:27,960 Speaker 2: that is the case with almost all the supply chain 32 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 2: episodes that we do, which is people use these final 33 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:34,680 Speaker 2: products and goods, they don't always necessarily realize what goes 34 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 2: into them until something happens there's a disruption of some sort, 35 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 2: and then suddenly everyone realizes, oh, actually you need this 36 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 2: component in order to make this thing. That I really like. 37 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: The other thing that I've been thinking a lot about 38 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: with respect to supply chains is that there seem to 39 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: be some issues that arise that I don't know if 40 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: mechanical is the right word, but where it's like you 41 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: can change something and maybe fixing it, like say like 42 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: capacity at the ports, for example. Like in theory, that's 43 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: seems like a sort of like human solvable problem, whereas 44 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: we talk about other issues that arise in which we're 45 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 1: sort of like dependent on natural phenomenon or at the 46 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: mercy of natural phenomenon, such as drought and say the 47 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: level of the water level of the Mississippi River, Like 48 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 1: there is very little that like humans can do certainly 49 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 1: in a short period of time to sort of like 50 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:25,519 Speaker 1: make water levels higher when that becomes a problem. 51 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think for this episode, the time frame 52 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 2: is really key. And if I think back to an 53 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 2: episode that is perhaps most relevant to what we're about 54 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 2: to discuss, it's some of the ones we did with 55 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 2: Stinton Dean where we talked about lumber supply and just 56 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 2: how long it takes to actually grow the trees that 57 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 2: we use for all sorts of things, from you know, 58 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:46,639 Speaker 2: housing construction being the most important one. 59 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 3: Well. 60 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: And so there is this supply chain tension that maybe 61 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,920 Speaker 1: we're going to see within alcohol, specifically the world of bourbon, 62 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:55,920 Speaker 1: and there are many aspects of it that are just 63 00:02:56,040 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: slow moving particulate barrels building them, or the trees required 64 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 1: to you know, make the barrels, the aging processes, et cetera. 65 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: It's sort of like this slow moving supply chain that 66 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: probably many people don't really think about, but there could 67 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: be issues in the future, at least according to our 68 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: guest who will. 69 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 2: Have on this right, a slow moving supply chain crisis 70 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 2: is the theme of this particular episode. But I think 71 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 2: it is true that when you think about bourbon. Most 72 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 2: people think bourbon, Oh, it comes from corn and you know, 73 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 2: fermenting corn. Not everyone immediately thinks about the barrels that 74 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:33,799 Speaker 2: it's aged and where those actually come from. 75 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: Are you a bourbon fan, by the way, No. 76 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 2: I am the worst alcohol drinker. I drink almost exclusively 77 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 2: light beer. 78 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: I try again the worst light beer, like sort of 79 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: like brown, like heavy alcoholic. I don't know, like once 80 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: every few years because I think it would be nice 81 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: or relaxing. Hasn't happened yet, But I am aware and 82 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: I respect people for whom that it is. 83 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 4: Like. 84 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: You know, I'm aware that that's a popular. 85 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 2: Maybe this will give us both a newfound appreciation for 86 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 2: burb exactly. 87 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: All right, Well, I am very excited about our guest. 88 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: We're going to be speaking with Kelvin Norman. He's an 89 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 1: assistant teaching professor of forestry at Penn State, and he 90 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: says there is a looming under the radars supply chain. 91 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: Maybe crisis is the right word, problem coming for the 92 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 1: bourbon industry thanks to the wood that's needed for the barrels. 93 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: So we're going to learn about something, you know what, 94 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: I'm excited about too. This is not like a crisis 95 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: in the public view yet, so maybe we can help 96 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:30,919 Speaker 1: get ahead of something and maybe it'll never become a 97 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: crisis as opposed to say, like, oh, how did this happen? 98 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 2: A bunch of people are going to plant trees because 99 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 2: of this episode. 100 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: Let's hope. So all right, Kelvin, thank you so much 101 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: for coming on Odd Lots. 102 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 4: Thank you for having me on. I'm super excited talking 103 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 4: about trees. So love talking about trees. 104 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 5: As an after school specialist, I would hope that an 105 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 5: assistant teaching professor of forestry likes to talk about trees, 106 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 5: but I am excited about talking trees as well. 107 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 1: Well, let's just start with like, can you explain the 108 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: role of the barrel specifically within the bourbon making process. 109 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, so this is where it gets really fun. So 110 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 4: bourbon is an American you know, liquor. It's like our 111 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 4: true native liquor. It's fifty one percent corn that's distilled 112 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 4: three times and put into barrels at eighty proof and 113 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 4: that has to sit in white oak. Once you used 114 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 4: once charred white oak barrels for a couple of years. 115 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 4: The reason you have to use white oak, you can 116 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 4: use a lot of like wood to make barrels. 117 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 3: It's a really old art. 118 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 4: But it has to sit for a couple of years, 119 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 4: and so you have to use white oak because white oak, 120 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 4: you know, wood fibers are just like long straws, and 121 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 4: if you put liquids in those straws, you can actually 122 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 4: drink through straw the straws. You know, when you when 123 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 4: you're doing your forestry degree, we do this really fun 124 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 4: thing where you drink water through white oak and red oak. 125 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 4: So red oak works just like a straw, really fun, 126 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 4: kind of nerdy. But if you try to use white 127 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 4: oak as a straw, it doesn't work because white oak 128 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 4: has these little. 129 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 3: Bubbles in the wood that just develop after the tree 130 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 3: is done using those straws to move water up and 131 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 3: down the tree, and so those bubbles prevent liquid from 132 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 3: escaping from the barrel itself, which is really handy when 133 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 3: you're trying to age something for like ten or twelve 134 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 3: years or three or four years. So there are only 135 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 3: three woods that you can really use to make barrels 136 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 3: that age things for a long time. There's French yoak, 137 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 3: Hungarian oak, and white oak. 138 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 4: If you want to get botanacle's quercus elbow for those 139 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 4: of you following along at home. 140 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:25,359 Speaker 1: Thank you. 141 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 4: So we use white oak here in America, you legally 142 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 4: have to use it, and you can only use that 143 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,919 Speaker 4: barrel once. After they use the bourbon barrel, they usually 144 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 4: sell it off to other, you know, liquor distillers because 145 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 4: the barrels are expensive and very good. 146 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 1: This is already one of those episodes that I can 147 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: tell is get to produce a lot of facts that 148 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: I'm going to mention at parties and be very popular. 149 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: Like you know, it's sort of like just bringing up random. 150 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 2: Things to randomly saying quircus alba all the time. Okay, Well, 151 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,359 Speaker 2: on that note, white oak has this special property that 152 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 2: you were just describing. What's the actual distribution of white 153 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 2: oak in America? Like how common is it? 154 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:04,720 Speaker 3: So it depends on where you are. 155 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 4: So white oak is it an Eastern US species, So 156 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 4: you can find it from like New England kind of 157 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 4: Connecticut area all the way over to Minnesota down to 158 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 4: Tennessee and Florida. But to make a barrel, and this 159 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 4: is this is going to sound really silly, you have 160 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 4: to have a really high quality piece of wood. If 161 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 4: you have a branch or a hole in that barrel, 162 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 4: it's not going to make a good barrel. So you 163 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 4: need really high quality white oak. So we really only 164 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 4: get we call them stave quality because that's the piece 165 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 4: of what you use to make a barrel. 166 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: As a stave. 167 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 4: You only really get stave quality wood from like New 168 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 4: York down into Georgia. I've heard of staves coming from 169 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 4: like southern Minnesota, but like not really, so you're looking 170 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 4: really central, like the Apps, the Appalachians. 171 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: Just a real quick question before a longer question. But 172 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: you mentioned like how much is a barrel, like if 173 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: I wanted to not you know, just the wood itself, 174 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: how much is that? 175 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 4: That is a really great question and I can't get 176 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 4: that information at a barrel makers. 177 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 3: I can tell you if you try to buy it. 178 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 4: There's a distillery to me and they will sell use 179 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 4: barrels for like one hundred and twenty bucks. So I 180 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 4: couldn't tell you what a what a barrel costs right 181 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 4: off the block. Coopbridge, you know, or making barrels, it's 182 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 4: like a it's like a dark art. You know, they 183 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 4: have a lot of secrets. Every Coopbridge does their you know, 184 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 4: barrel making a little bit differently. You know, they age 185 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 4: wood differently for various distilleris so some distillery structure episode. 186 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, we got to get a coopron next time. 187 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 3: Oh, there's not many of them. There's not many of them, 188 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 3: but you can find them. 189 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 1: Why should we be concerned about the supply of white oak? 190 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 4: Okay, so we have one tree, we have one tree species. 191 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 4: It technically a comodity, but unlike you know, pine lumber, 192 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 4: it's not you know, spruce and fur and ou interchangeable. 193 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 4: You know, you can only get it from white oak, 194 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 4: and white oak has very specific growing requirements. And you 195 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 4: we're looking for the superstar white oak, so you have 196 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 4: to have white oak on good site it's growing well 197 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 4: and where we have a lot right now. But when 198 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 4: we look to the next generation of white oak, there's 199 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 4: very little. We're looking at like a seventy seven percent 200 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 4: population decline if nothing changes today. If we take all 201 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 4: of our seedling and saplings, of our little oaks that 202 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 4: we have on the ground, we put those up in 203 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 4: the overstory, seventy seven percent of the trees that we 204 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 4: have today are getby you know, population decline. 205 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 2: So maybe just to back up to illustrate that point, 206 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 2: can you walk us through the process of where a 207 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 2: barrel actually comes from. So who owns the white oak trees? 208 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 2: When do they decide to cut them down? And then 209 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 2: how does that whole process of creating the barrel actually happen. 210 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, so Tracy follow me on this one. 211 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:47,079 Speaker 3: What can you say about an acorn? 212 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 2: It's small, but it grows a large tree. 213 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, in a nutshell, it's an oak tree. Very so 214 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 3: we don't get a lot of forester jokes, but they 215 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:04,839 Speaker 3: you slowly, so that I try. 216 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 4: So you start with to start with a white oak, 217 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 4: we got to go back like one hundred years. You 218 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 4: start with an acorn or a stump sprout from a 219 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 4: tree slowly that recruits, So it grows from an acorn 220 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 4: into a sapling, into a pole size tree, into a 221 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 4: stave quality tree. That takes one hundred years, and you 222 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 4: have incredible mortality. So we have we'll start with like 223 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 4: a couple of thousand ceilings and we'll end with like 224 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 4: two hundred trees. And those trees are there for a 225 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 4: long time. So the odds of a tree becoming a ceiling, 226 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 4: an acorn becoming a tree super low, and then to 227 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 4: become a barrel. So if you have a forest of 228 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 4: really wonderful white oak. There's a stave buyer. It's one 229 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 4: person for the mill. They'll go around, they have some 230 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 4: of them even have specific counties and like specific areas 231 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 4: that they know good wood comes from. Because you're looking 232 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 4: for super quality trees, like we're again we're talking the 233 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 4: NFL of trees. It's got to be super straight. There 234 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 4: can't be any turn in that tree at all. So 235 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 4: they'll go around, they'll cruise the entire stand looking for 236 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 4: trees that they want. They'll select those trees, and then 237 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 4: when the harvest comes through, those trees get treated differently 238 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 4: and they get taken out and sent right to the 239 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 4: stave mil Sometimes they'll get cut up at a saw 240 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 4: mill and the stave mail buys them there, but usually 241 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 4: they're out there they're picking trees on woodlocks. 242 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,559 Speaker 1: So right now we have plenty of white oak and 243 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 1: where there's not an acute crisis, but it's your projection 244 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: in terms of the sort of acreage, the volume of 245 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: these white oak trees right now, how much was that 246 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:54,559 Speaker 1: I don't know if the word is planned or active 247 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: decisions that were made decades and decades and decades in 248 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 1: the past versus sort of a more emergent phenomenon, and 249 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: we're blessed with something that was sort of sort of 250 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 1: emerged over time, but that now at this point needs 251 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: more active management. 252 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 4: Oh, Joe, it's a great question, and it's a really 253 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 4: fun discussion that we have at the bar after forestry conferences. 254 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 4: So we have a glut of white oak right now, 255 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 4: you know, following farm abandonment in the Great Depression. For 256 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 4: those of you who are not foresters, when you're a forester, 257 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 4: you have to think really long term because what you're 258 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 4: doing today impacts a landscape for the next hundred years. 259 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 4: So when we look back one hundred years, so we're 260 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 4: looking at Great Depression, is when most of these forests start. 261 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 4: You know, you get farm field abandonment. White oak really 262 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 4: likes that sun and the semi shade they came with 263 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 4: that as well as you know, back in the twenties, 264 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 4: people ran, you know, they did a lot of fire. 265 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 4: You know, they're out there cutting down trees, and we 266 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 4: had this like dappled shade condition that was really great 267 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,199 Speaker 4: for white oak. So I would say we're probably you know, 268 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 4: the amount of white oak that we had today is 269 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 4: probably a little bit extra than we would expect. But 270 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 4: the decline that we're seeing is not a result of 271 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 4: you know, there was just too much. It's the management 272 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 4: has changed and we're not managing it correctly to get 273 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 4: that white oak back. 274 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 1: So it's a totally an emergent phenomenon, but it sounds 275 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: like it was came from things that were not necessarily intentional. 276 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: But in a way, we owe this abundance to the 277 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: Great Depression. 278 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, and then we also have to look back, even 279 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,079 Speaker 4: you know, farther back, because you know, this continent has 280 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,079 Speaker 4: been peopled for a couple of you know, thousands of 281 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 4: thousands of years, and so those peoples managed this landscape 282 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 4: for a really long time, using fire and harvesting timber 283 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 4: and deer and all kinds of stuff, and they helped 284 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,079 Speaker 4: you know, they liked white oak because white oak has 285 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 4: a tasty acorn if you like to eat acorns. I'm 286 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 4: not a huge fan of it. I think it's kind 287 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 4: of a cultural thing, but you know, the people who 288 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 4: lived here before Europeans liked white oak, and they managed 289 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 4: landscapes for white oak and those the trees and the 290 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 4: white oak family, and so they helped shape the landscape 291 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 4: and the trees for white, you know, to be more 292 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 4: white oak friendly. 293 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 2: So this is something I wanted to ask you about 294 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 2: because this is something I learned from buying that house 295 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 2: in Connecticut, which is a lot of those sort of 296 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 2: Eastern states used to look very park like because Native Americans. 297 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,559 Speaker 2: I see you shaking your head, but you know, like 298 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 2: more park like than they look now because Native Americans 299 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 2: would burn some of the scrub and brush in order 300 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 2: to manage the land. Talk to us about a little 301 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 2: bit more about that component of it, like what does 302 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 2: fire actually mean to the white oak and why has 303 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 2: that process changed since the Great Depression. 304 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 4: So you know a lot of people think trees, trees 305 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 4: don't like fire. Actually it's not true. Some trees really 306 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 4: love fire. So white oak is kind of it's not 307 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 4: fire dependent, which is when a tree only regenerates after 308 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 4: a fire, but it likes fire. So what white oak 309 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 4: does is it when it grows, it starts putting nutrients 310 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 4: down into the root system and then it grows up. 311 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 4: A lot of other trees will just go straight up 312 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 4: because you know, when you're a tree, you need sunlight 313 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 4: and so to get someone you got to go up. 314 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 4: But white oak goes down and then it goes up. 315 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 4: So if you get a couple of fires in there, 316 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 4: that kills out trees that can't take fire. So you 317 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 4: your maples don't like fire, you know, kind of your 318 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 4: ash and that kind of stuff don't like fire. 319 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 3: So you get a couple of burns through and then 320 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 3: the white oak comes up. 321 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 4: Wayook is pretty fire resistant when it gets to you know, 322 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 4: a smaller you know, a smaller size, so after it 323 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 4: gets top kilt, it's probably gonna survive most surface fires. 324 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 4: And then you get these beautiful white oaks stands. We 325 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 4: you know, recently in management have suppressed fire because we're 326 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 4: like fire bed don't like fire. 327 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 3: In the southeast, they never really stopped burning. They had 328 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 3: a culture of burning. 329 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 4: But here in the Northeast it's very difficult to get 330 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 4: prescribed fire on the ground, which makes white oak regeneration 331 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 4: very difficult. But there are other things that are probably 332 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 4: there are other problems. It's not just a lack of 333 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 4: fire in the landscape. You know, this is this is 334 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 4: one of those you know, all unhappy families are different 335 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 4: in their own way, and all happy families are the same. 336 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: So this kind of leads to my next question. But 337 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: I wanted to pick up on something that Tracy already 338 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: asked about, but further to like the current economics of 339 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: this acreage, like who owns this acreage? And for them, 340 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: I have to imagine like the Bourbon or the Cooper 341 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: the Cooper market and leading into the Bourbon market. I'm 342 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: assuming it's not a massive slice of like their own economics. 343 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: And so can you talk a little bit about like 344 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 1: who are these companies that sort of like own a 345 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: lot of this acreage and what are they what are 346 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: most of them optimizing for because I assume it's not 347 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: optimizing for the Bourbon market specifically. 348 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, so most of the land in the East United 349 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 4: States is owned up by companies, but private landowners. Ok 350 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 4: so like the three of us we represent, like in Pennsylvania, 351 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 4: that's seventy percent of landownership. Interesting, is just like random 352 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 4: people in their backyards. Which is why you know, doing 353 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 4: you know, very good force management is difficult. It takes 354 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 4: money upfront and then you're not going to see financial 355 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 4: return for one hundred years. So the odds is like 356 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 4: that's the really fun thing when you do for us. 357 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 4: She's like, I'll never see this stand again. I'm I'm 358 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 4: doing this not for me, not for the person after me, 359 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 4: but three people after me. 360 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: This is kind of like I think, why endowments, like 361 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:10,400 Speaker 1: don't they like trees, like like the Yale Endowment, because 362 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: like these are like assets that are really like not 363 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: on typical market cycles. 364 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, there there are some large you know, timber investment 365 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 4: companies and real estate investment companies. Teamos in Ritail owned 366 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 4: forest land, but the East Coast has been you know, 367 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:26,360 Speaker 4: people buy Europeans for a long time, so it's difficult 368 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 4: to get that land. You know, there's there's not a 369 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 4: lot of it out there that large companies can buy up. 370 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 4: And when you get into the Southeast they buy main 371 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 4: there's a lot of like softwood, So southern yellow pine 372 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 4: is the biggest agricultural export of the Southeast, and they 373 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 4: grew a lot of pine down there. It's that's very 374 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 4: easy to manage. White oak is difficult to manage. You 375 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 4: have to put a lot of time, thought and effort 376 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 4: and money into it and then you see the return 377 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 4: way down the line. So the economics from the system 378 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 4: that we have don't make a lot of sense. Because 379 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 4: if you go out and you do you know, invasive 380 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 4: species management, which you have to do regenerate. It costs 381 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 4: you eighty dollars an acre today and then you don't 382 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,440 Speaker 4: get to recruit that value financially for one hundred years. 383 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 4: You might get to recruit it and that you're harvesting 384 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 4: deer or you're out there walking your dog or you know, 385 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 4: you and your family are having a good time on 386 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 4: the landscape, but there's not really a financial value for that, 387 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,479 Speaker 4: whereas like doing the management costs money today. 388 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. 389 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 2: So just on this note, I mean, you walked us 390 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 2: through how the economics don't really work. But I have 391 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 2: to imagine the people that have the biggest stakeholders in 392 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 2: growing white oaks should be the bourbon makers. Are bourbon 393 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 2: makers able to do anything about this? Can they plant 394 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 2: their own forest for instance? 395 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, so the bourbon makers are definitely, they definitely take 396 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:43,640 Speaker 4: a note of this. There's a thing called the White 397 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 4: Oak Initiative, which is a partnership of the Forest Service, 398 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 4: you know, various state governments. They own land and the 399 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 4: bourbon makers coop bridges and they're helping to you know, 400 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 4: try to raise the profile of this issue and you know, 401 00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 4: teach people how to manage their land correctly. And you know, 402 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 4: four oak species, so they're taking steps. They also fund 403 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:06,680 Speaker 4: a lot of research, and they're funding nurseries, and they're 404 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 4: funding efforts to plant white oak out in the landscape. 405 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 4: The problem is, you can't really plant white oak, you know, 406 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,160 Speaker 4: just in straight lines like it's corn or southern yellow pine. 407 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,440 Speaker 4: Because when you make a barrel, you need nice tight 408 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 4: grains and you need to need competition. And when you, you know, 409 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 4: do a plantation, you don't really get that and they 410 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 4: don't like plantations. So you can put them out there, 411 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 4: you can plant them in lines, and you're not really 412 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 4: going to make barrels out of that. 413 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,360 Speaker 3: You need the natural region. You need a good well 414 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 3: managed for it. 415 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 1: So can you explain what do you mean by competition 416 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 1: in this context? How does that work? And how does 417 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: that natural form of competition create better wood? 418 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 4: So when trees grow, I'm actually teaching my students listen 419 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 4: this lesson, Like, surely, so you have some competition for sunlight. 420 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 4: You know, trees need three main resources. They need sunlight, 421 00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 4: they need water, they need space, and they need nutrients. 422 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 4: The neutral is really a problem. So they need the 423 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 4: competition for sunlight. If you know, a tree gets all 424 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:07,959 Speaker 4: the sunlight it ever wants. You have these really wide 425 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 4: growth rings. Actually have a tree cookie here, So you 426 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 4: have this these other growth rings. 427 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: If you're listening to this on the audio, you got 428 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: to watch the video because Keldon has propped this is awesome. 429 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,159 Speaker 4: Well again, my students are going to see this in 430 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 4: an hour. So if my students are listening to this, 431 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 4: you already learned this lesson. But so you have these 432 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,120 Speaker 4: growth rings here, which is how much this tree grows 433 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 4: every year. 434 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 3: When they're very big. 435 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 4: That's really good for liquid moving through it, which if 436 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 4: you are trying to hold a product for a long 437 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 4: time in a barrel, is bad. So you need trees 438 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 4: that are kind of stressed and they're really having to compete, 439 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 4: and so the growth is it's good, but it's not huge. 440 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 4: This is the opposite of like if we're growing like 441 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 4: two by fours. When we're growing two by fourth, we 442 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 4: want big growth because then you can make a lot 443 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 4: of two by fours really fast. 444 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,719 Speaker 2: So you need the sort of the dappled sunlight with 445 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 2: some shade, basically a forest environment with lots of trees 446 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,439 Speaker 2: crowding in that makes them compete to grow up towards 447 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 2: the sunlight. To what degree can you I guess you know, 448 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 2: replicate that environment. Like how easy would it be to 449 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 2: start a commercial white oak farm and just create your 450 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 2: own little natural hundred years? 451 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, to wait for getting your financially. 452 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 2: I get the timeline is an issue. But you know, 453 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 2: if you're really motivated to solve, to try to start 454 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 2: solving this program this problem, now, how difficult would it be. 455 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 4: It's not impossible, it is difficult. You do have to 456 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,400 Speaker 4: have you know, what's why forestree is a profession. You've 457 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 4: got to have folks who know how to manage these 458 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 4: trees to encourage growth. This is a solvable problem. It 459 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 4: just takes you know, time, thought, effort, and money. So 460 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 4: you have to be you have to know that you 461 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 4: have the correct you know, physical ground. Your soil and 462 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 4: nutrients have to be right. So you have to have 463 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 4: the right ground, and then you have to have the 464 00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 4: right trees on site. Already, if you don't have white 465 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 4: oak one, you're probably never going to grow white oak. 466 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 4: You can plant it in, but dear love white oak, 467 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:06,880 Speaker 4: so those just comes your and buzz down anything you plant. 468 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 4: So you have to have it on site you can 469 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 4: manage it correctly. We were just out the other day 470 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 4: in class in a white oak stand, and there we 471 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,919 Speaker 4: could easily manage that forest for white oak in stands 472 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 4: that aren't that like perfect. So you can do white 473 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:24,199 Speaker 4: oak regeneration very well in Kentucky and Missouri and the Ozarks. 474 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,120 Speaker 4: But then as you expand out, you run into invasive 475 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 4: species that require management. And again we can control those species, 476 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 4: you know, through the application of herbicides or prescribe fire. 477 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 4: You know, sometimes goats work for some species. So if 478 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,160 Speaker 4: you can control those species, you do management with deer 479 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 4: sometimes we have to fence forces now to keep deer 480 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 4: out the way. The trees can grow high enough that 481 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 4: deer aren't a problem. So you keep the deer out, 482 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 4: you can get white oak back. It just takes you know, effort. 483 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 4: There's been a lot of changes to the forest. 484 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:58,400 Speaker 1: I'm really fascinated by this point that this idea of 485 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:02,400 Speaker 1: like the best type of trees for say, lumber for housing, 486 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 1: which seems like it's probably you know not seems like 487 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:12,439 Speaker 1: a much bigger industry than barrels, is very different than 488 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:14,719 Speaker 1: the optimal trees for barrel So how much does this 489 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: inherent like economic tension create stress in terms of like 490 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 1: the planning that you needed in terms of like I 491 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: don't know. I feel like the housing is a bigger 492 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: market and that's where people are going to like sort 493 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 1: of like think about their forestry efforts. 494 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:30,479 Speaker 3: I mean it does to some extent. 495 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 4: So so Pennsylvania we call ourselves the you know, we're 496 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 4: the largest export of hardwood in the nation, the high 497 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 4: value hardwood. Then if you go down to like Georgia, 498 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 4: they export a lot of really high value pine. The 499 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 4: pine species they have down here don't grow in Pennsylvania, 500 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,199 Speaker 4: So we don't have that competition for space because you 501 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 4: just can't grow them. If you put them in the 502 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 4: ground today, they'll be dead in a couple of years. 503 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 3: They don't make it through the winds there. They don't 504 00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 3: like our soil types. 505 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 4: So you know, there's a little bit of competition when 506 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 4: it comes to species. 507 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 3: But you know, you're working with nature. 508 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 4: So you you could you could try to fight nature, 509 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 4: but you usually lose, So there's not a ton of competition. 510 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 4: The problem is there's also a lack of low quality 511 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 4: wood markets. Now we used to make a lot of 512 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 4: paper in the US out of American fiber. Now it's 513 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 4: mostly eucalyptus and bamboo. The Eucalyptus comes from South America. 514 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 4: So the really great thing about American you know, use 515 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 4: having the low quality market here is the trees and 516 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 4: stuff you can't use to make you know, high quality 517 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,239 Speaker 4: products like barrels or shells or boards of that kind 518 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,160 Speaker 4: of stuff that's still you know, the wood you can't 519 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 4: use that still costs money to fell and to handle. 520 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 4: There's still risk in cutting the tree down, not like 521 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,439 Speaker 4: financial risk, but like it is a it is a 522 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 4: you know, several ton tree coming down. People die. So 523 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 4: you know, you don't want to cut down things you 524 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 4: don't have to. You know, people don't want to cut 525 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:56,199 Speaker 4: down things that are risky. So but with the so 526 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 4: we used to be able to sell those trees, and 527 00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 4: now it's very difficult to sell low, low grade wood 528 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 4: because it there's no market for it. And that makes 529 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 4: you know, management for things that don't make you money hard. 530 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 4: And so's there's a big pressure for the high value 531 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 4: trees leaving the low value trees behind. But when you 532 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 4: leave the low value trees behind, there's no second harvest. 533 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 4: You know, you can't come back, there's nothing to cut 534 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 4: right from an economic. 535 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 2: Perspective, So two semi apocalyptic questions. But one, what are 536 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 2: the chances that in maybe not one hundred years, but 537 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 2: maybe two hundred years, maybe we just don't have enough 538 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 2: white oaks to create bourbon barrels. And then secondly, what 539 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 2: would the bourbon industry do without those white oak barrels? 540 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:58,880 Speaker 2: Are there synthetic alternatives or is it just not possible 541 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,120 Speaker 2: to replicate the bourbon ball. 542 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:05,159 Speaker 4: Yeah, so I'll take the second one first because it's 543 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 4: easier to answer. There's no legally, there's no replacement. Huh, 544 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,160 Speaker 4: there's no replacement. It has to be white oak, has 545 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 4: to be queckers outba. You could try to replace it 546 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 4: with French yoke or with Hungarian oak. You have to 547 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 4: import those from Europe, and you have similar you know, 548 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 4: kind of issues over there. I'm not you know, I'm 549 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,479 Speaker 4: a forester who works in Pennsylvania and the mid Atlantic 550 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 4: slash Northeast, so I couldn't really speak to all the 551 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:28,639 Speaker 4: stuff that goes on in Europe. I assume they're having 552 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 4: similar issues. So there's not a replacement. Now, going to 553 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 4: the the you know, what does the future look like? 554 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 3: This is kind of my element. 555 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 4: I do climate change, invasive species and forest health stuff. 556 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 4: So the future is not great unless we take action today. 557 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 4: You know, looking you know, using what we have on 558 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 4: the ground today, you're looking at seventy percent decline if 559 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 4: we don't take action today. 560 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 3: But we can take action today and we can get that. 561 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 4: You know, we'll see some decline because that is probably 562 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,199 Speaker 4: over overrepresent a landscape. But if we take action and 563 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,159 Speaker 4: we start doing good management, we can get those numbers up. 564 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,119 Speaker 3: We can see white oak regeneration get up. 565 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 4: It just takes you know, getting out there and cutting trees, burning, 566 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 4: you know, burning the forest, fencing, deer killing and vasive species. 567 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,399 Speaker 3: Just takes action. That's and that's where things get fun. 568 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:21,120 Speaker 1: If there's no action, how soon of a timeline are 569 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: we talking about in which it would be not apocalypse, 570 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 1: not the end of the industry, not the end of 571 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: legal bourbon as we know it, But what is the 572 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 1: point at which the bourbon makers would start to seriously 573 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,479 Speaker 1: sort of get stressed on their own supply chains and 574 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 1: start to run into hard physical constraints about how much 575 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: bourbon they can make any year? 576 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 2: Can I tack on a question to that, which is 577 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 2: how long does a bourbon barrel made of white oak 578 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 2: actually last? Like how often can you reuse it. 579 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:56,160 Speaker 4: So if you look at the data, we're good until 580 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,719 Speaker 4: for the next like twenty to thirty years, we get 581 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,159 Speaker 4: plenty of white oak up until that's sixty age. You 582 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 4: know that sixty year old tree, and you cut them 583 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 4: at about one hundred and twenty years. They can live longer, 584 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 4: but they don't really they start to decline. 585 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 1: We are starting in the arm curves on this one. 586 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 1: I'm I'm really happy that we're amplifying this. 587 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 2: In one hundred years, people are going to look back 588 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 2: on this episode and say all thoughts warned us. 589 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 1: Sorry. 590 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 4: Well, when we talk about like white oak decline, like 591 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 4: one of the main points is nobody knows about this stuff. 592 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 4: You know. The only people who know about this stuff 593 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 4: like you know our foresters, and foresters famously don't like 594 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,199 Speaker 4: to talk to other people. The fun joke that we 595 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 4: have in forestry is the social forester looks at the 596 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 4: other guy's boots. So that's that's one of the issues. 597 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 4: But now, Tracy to your question, how long can you 598 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:40,719 Speaker 4: reuse that barrel? 599 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 3: A long time? 600 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 4: You can use it for a long time, so after 601 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 4: it gets used in bourbon, you can use it once 602 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 4: to make bourbon, but you can use it to make 603 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 4: you know, ales and beers. You can use it to 604 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 4: make whiskey. They sell them to Ireland. I went to 605 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 4: I was in Ireland this summer on vacation and we 606 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 4: saw some Irish distilleries that had you know, white oak barrels. 607 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 3: Is really fun. 608 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 4: I have this one fun party trick or I just 609 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 4: identify pieces of wood around the room and. 610 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 3: I was like, hey, I know that tree. They're like 611 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 3: what tree? Oh the wood in the barrel? I know 612 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 3: that one. 613 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 4: I actually grow those. So you know this is this 614 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 4: is not going to impact just bourbon. It's going to 615 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 4: impact a larger range of alcohol products. And then you 616 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 4: can also use them in your home for decoration. You know, 617 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 4: a lot of bars have bourbon barrels. I'd say, you know, 618 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 4: the shelf life of a bourbon barrel is before you 619 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 4: throw it out, it's probably like fifty years. 620 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 3: Wow. 621 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 4: They don't really rot and they're very dry, so it lasts, 622 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 4: it lasts until you throw it out. 623 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 3: Huh. 624 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 4: It's a great This is the other really fun thing 625 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 4: about trees. I'm sorry, I just ran you over. Like 626 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 4: trees are a great carbon storage or great carbon sink. 627 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 4: So we like to just like, yeah, wood products. I 628 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 4: drink bourbon because it's a wood product, and you know 629 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 4: that barrel after you're done with it, that's carbon stored 630 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 4: out of the atmosphere, physical form. 631 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 3: You get to put your beer on it afterwards. 632 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 2: Okay, So the lesson is treasure your oak barrels and 633 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 2: your wide oaks as well. So I just want to 634 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 2: go back to what when we were talking about the 635 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 2: economics of white oak ownership, and you're saying we need 636 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 2: more active land management, better land management, in order to 637 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 2: grow more of these trees. But how do you actually 638 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 2: do that given that a lot of the tree owners 639 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 2: are going to be you know, individuals who maybe have 640 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 2: like a grove on some of their acreage. 641 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 4: So you know, there is some you know, people who 642 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 4: are looking like, all right, I'm going to model this forward. 643 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 4: It makes sense for me. I am bought into conservation. 644 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 4: I like having, you know, oaks, not just for you know, 645 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 4: the financial value, but they're really important from a habitat perspective. 646 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 4: I got a bear back here. Bears love white oaks. 647 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 4: That's just a little fun hat. So so there's some 648 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 4: people who modeled ford like it's worth it for me 649 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 4: to pay this, But there's also programs out there. So CRP, 650 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 4: the Conservation Reserve Program does fund some force conservation practices. 651 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 4: The Inflation Reduction Bill, the IRA has money in it 652 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 4: now that is kind of help fund some more of 653 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,479 Speaker 4: these forest practices because you know, good forestry is not 654 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 4: just good for the woods, it's good for the climate, 655 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 4: it's good for society. So people are taking notice of 656 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 4: this and like, oh, we should, we should help fund this. 657 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 4: There are programs out there. There's a lot of programs 658 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 4: like extension programs at local universities or at land grant 659 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 4: universities that help like teach people how to do forestry 660 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 4: and will help you know, I do. Sorry, this is 661 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 4: a shameless plug for extension because it's what I do. 662 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 4: But like, we go out, we give talks, we talk 663 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 4: to people, we cruise land, and we tell me here's 664 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 4: you know, how you can do stuff. You know, here's 665 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 4: things that you could do in the future. So there's 666 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 4: a lot of you know, help out there. You just 667 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 4: got to find it. And honestly, to be very honest, 668 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 4: we need to do a lot. We need to help 669 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 4: people a lot more because it's it's very expensive to 670 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 4: do this stuff in the short term. 671 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's sort of what I was going to ask next, 672 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 1: which is that, like I don't know if it's whether 673 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: it's government, the private sector, some combination of both, or 674 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,479 Speaker 1: educational institutions. But in your view, because it's a it's 675 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: a coordination problem in part, and I have to imagine 676 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 1: there are all you know, again, if there may be were 677 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: just a few really big landowners, then they could all 678 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: get together and say we're going to do X. But 679 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 1: obviously there aren't, so you have to coordinate between you know, 680 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 1: thousands and thousands or hundreds of thousands of small individuals. 681 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: Who is best suited to sort of make that coordination? 682 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: And then the economics the part about sort of like 683 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: changing the economic calculus so that the forest management there's 684 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: a reason for uh, someone to do it, Like who 685 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: is in best who is in the best position to 686 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 1: sort of like make those economics work. Where would we 687 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: have to see leadership specifically? 688 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 4: Well, again, I'm gonna do the shameless plug. This is 689 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 4: where foresters come in. We're really good at helping people 690 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 4: figure out how to manage their land for the future. 691 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 4: And every piece of land is a little bit different 692 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 4: from the next. You know, somewhere might have an evasive 693 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 4: species problem and somewhere else is it to your problem, 694 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 4: And it's very difficult to manage it on a state 695 00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 4: wide level. You have to manage it on a you know, 696 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 4: almost tree to tree stand level. So stand is just 697 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 4: a piece of land. It's a good tike you's piece 698 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 4: of forest, So you have to manage that on a 699 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 4: forest level, not like you can't. Like there's not like 700 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 4: one answer, So it really comes down to conversations with 701 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 4: landowners and just landowners, you know, funding good forestry and 702 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 4: helping foresters get out there and do good management, and 703 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 4: helping landowners do good management. So that's you know, one 704 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 4: thing that we can do. There are states do have 705 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 4: foresters that help private landowners do good forestry, and all 706 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 4: of states are called service forces. Those people are great, 707 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 4: they do good work, so you know, having resources like 708 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 4: that available is extraordinarily helpful. And then states do own, 709 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 4: like all these eastern states own a good chunk of 710 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 4: private lands, so they don't it's not private land, it's 711 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 4: private land, so they own a good chunk of land, 712 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 4: so you know, making sure that they are you know, 713 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:53,959 Speaker 4: valuing that forest and not forcing it to fund itself. 714 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,239 Speaker 4: And like, all right, this is a service that is 715 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 4: provided to the people of the state and the nation, 716 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 4: So like you don't have you're not out there on 717 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 4: a limb trying to make it work like funded through 718 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 4: you know, budgetary stuff. 719 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 1: Are there any legal changes that would be helpful or 720 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: necessary when you think about like whether it's hunting invasive species, 721 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,720 Speaker 1: whether it's more burns, which I have to imagine contained 722 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 1: some risk. I would assume even if you're like, even 723 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: if it's good for the forest ecosystem, are there any 724 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 1: situations in which existing law has moved in such a 725 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: direction that is unhelpful for the type of forest management 726 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: that the bourbon industry needs. 727 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean deer populations are super high. Bringing those 728 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 4: down because that's managed to the state level by state 729 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 4: game agencies, would be very helpful for a lot of forests. 730 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 4: You know, taking biosecurity seriously and reducing the importation of 731 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,840 Speaker 4: invasive species would be great. There's a lot of invasives 732 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 4: that you can buy at big box stores, and like 733 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 4: we could just ban the sale of those. That be 734 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,799 Speaker 4: a great start. Japanese bar very just got banned in Pennsylvania. 735 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,760 Speaker 4: It's like we've known this as an invasive species for decades. 736 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 4: Why did it take it, you know, so long to 737 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 4: get this band. So, you know, focusing on protecting what 738 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,919 Speaker 4: we have would be really great. 739 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 3: I think that that would be super help. 740 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,799 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, and as far as prescribe fire, there's 741 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,240 Speaker 4: a lot you know, in some of the southern states, 742 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 4: the legislation is a lot more friendly to prescribe fire, 743 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 4: but you know, in other places, there's a really high 744 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 4: legislative burden on people who want to do prescribe fire, 745 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,719 Speaker 4: Like you have to have super high insurance, which just 746 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:33,719 Speaker 4: makes it impossible to do. 747 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:41,320 Speaker 2: I'm not necessarily advocating this approach, but but one one method, No, no, no, no, 748 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 2: I really don't. 749 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 3: But what take it? We'll take the thoughts. 750 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:48,319 Speaker 2: One method of conservation has to do with attaching you know, 751 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:53,440 Speaker 2: an economic value, a concrete immediate economic value to something 752 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,759 Speaker 2: that you know, maybe is in the existing system, is 753 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 2: hard to attach an economic value to because it's only 754 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 2: going to mature in one hundred years or whatever. Is 755 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 2: that a possibility here? Could you have some sort of 756 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 2: subsidy or incentive structure for people to grow and keep 757 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 2: those white oaks? 758 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's CRP does that already? 759 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 4: We just don't say like this is white oak habitat conservation. 760 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 4: You know, it's just funded through you know, forestry practices. 761 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,839 Speaker 4: So we have something like this with pollinator habitat. You know, 762 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 4: you're out there counting the number of like bees and 763 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,799 Speaker 4: butterflies and other critters that use that pollinator habitat. But 764 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 4: you can get money from the NRCS, which is the 765 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:39,959 Speaker 4: natural sorry, National Natural Conservation of Resources. Oh, I forget 766 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 4: the S service to like you know, plant pollen or 767 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,719 Speaker 4: habitat on you know, farmland. That's not great. So we 768 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,319 Speaker 4: could just extend that farther into forest and make sure 769 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 4: that program is funded all the way because right now 770 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:54,279 Speaker 4: it is mainly targeted at farmers. Farmers do own forest land, 771 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 4: but like you know, also putting an equal emphasis on 772 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,760 Speaker 4: forest ownership would be super helpful, super helpful. 773 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: How much again, you know, going back to the sort 774 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 1: of the actual bourbon makers, like how much are they 775 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:10,400 Speaker 1: currently I mean, I assume like they're pretty aware. Are 776 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 1: theos are thinking about their future? But like how much 777 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 1: are they currently active in sort of themselves taking on leadership, 778 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 1: whether it's fronting money, whether it's education, whether it's working 779 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,759 Speaker 1: with educational institutions or public institutions, Like what are they 780 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,239 Speaker 1: doing right now? I don't know who are the big 781 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: like Brown Foreman, so. 782 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 3: You have like, yeah, yeah, been I think it's Brown Foreman. 783 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 4: That's one of they going are Yeah they they have, 784 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,479 Speaker 4: you know, seen that there's a there's a problem coming 785 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,360 Speaker 4: for him, because you know, when you're aging a product 786 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:43,880 Speaker 4: for ten years, you've got to look in the future. 787 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 4: So they see, they see the issue, and so they're 788 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 4: really starting they're really funding a lot of research into 789 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,759 Speaker 4: solving these these problems. They've really stepped up to fund 790 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,760 Speaker 4: the White Oak Initiative. We had a National Forcers conference 791 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 4: in Louisville a couple of years ago, and they were 792 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 4: the you know, high sponsors. So they're they're and the 793 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 4: they're putting money where their where their mouth is because 794 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,399 Speaker 4: this is the business, after all, you know good Where 795 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,880 Speaker 4: white out goes, so goes the bourbon industry. So I 796 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,279 Speaker 4: would say they're doing a lot, so I could you 797 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 4: could always ask for more money, but you they're doing 798 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 4: as much as that you really can expect. 799 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: I have to imagine that if any industry is going 800 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: to generally take like a long term approach, it's probably 801 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: like there's always been part of people that age for 802 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 1: a decade, like if the you know, we want companies 803 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,239 Speaker 1: that think long term, like probably like any company that 804 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,840 Speaker 1: has an aging process probably like has that. They're like 805 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 1: DNA to some extent. 806 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 2: Well, this was going to be my next and probably 807 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 2: last question, which is as a forester, you know someone 808 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:41,719 Speaker 2: who cares about the forest, who thinks about this on 809 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:43,879 Speaker 2: a day to day basis, and who thinks on those 810 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:47,319 Speaker 2: really long timelines of you know, what is this land 811 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,040 Speaker 2: going to look like in one hundred years? What advice 812 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 2: do you have for getting people to care about these 813 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:54,840 Speaker 2: longer term outcomes? 814 00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 3: This is a super fun question. 815 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,279 Speaker 4: Just go ahead and learn about your local lands cape 816 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 4: and what's in there. Once you I find with a 817 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:05,920 Speaker 4: lot of people like once you learn about plants and 818 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:07,800 Speaker 4: birds and stuff like that, it's kind of an addiction. 819 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,239 Speaker 4: It's like once you start identifying trees on your landscape 820 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 4: and you just on your block, you start to care 821 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,719 Speaker 4: more about them. Tracy, we were talking before about your 822 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 4: silver maple. So it's like, Okay, I know about this tree. 823 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 4: Oh now I care about this tree and that tree, 824 00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:21,560 Speaker 4: and you start to see, you know, the forest for 825 00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:23,960 Speaker 4: the trees to steal the old expression, and you could 826 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 4: do the same thing with bird habitat. We haven't even 827 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,520 Speaker 4: talked about the wildlife importance of white oak. There's everything 828 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,480 Speaker 4: in the forest eats white oak, you know, from bears 829 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,799 Speaker 4: to chipmunks to you know, warblers. Everybody loves it. So, 830 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,280 Speaker 4: you know, conserving these species, you know, the oak species 831 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 4: conserves a really wide range of other wildlife species. So 832 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:44,960 Speaker 4: there's you know, if you like birds, you like oaks. 833 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 4: If you like deer, you like oak. If you like 834 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,120 Speaker 4: salamander's you like oak. So once you get into the 835 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,680 Speaker 4: natural world, it's very easy to see that, ah, this 836 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:53,760 Speaker 4: is this is important. 837 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:55,759 Speaker 3: This white oak here, this is kind of key for 838 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:57,359 Speaker 3: my little piece of it. 839 00:39:57,760 --> 00:39:59,799 Speaker 1: Any you know, are there any other things that like 840 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,799 Speaker 1: we should be thinking about or like aspects of this. 841 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 1: I mean, this is like a fascinating question, fascinating conversation. 842 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:06,799 Speaker 5: You know. 843 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 1: One thing that I've actually also I just want to 844 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:12,120 Speaker 1: say I really enjoy about this is that while there's 845 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,560 Speaker 1: clearly like this challenge coming, I appreciate like you seem 846 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:19,359 Speaker 1: optimistic that this is a solvable problem, Like this is 847 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 1: not like you know, someone particularly doomor about it, that 848 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:26,040 Speaker 1: this is like this inevitable crisis that's going to happen 849 00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,880 Speaker 1: the way that sometimes you have certain like acute specific 850 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,719 Speaker 1: uh you know, slow moving environmental stresses. 851 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,279 Speaker 4: Well, you know, the force are incredibly resilient. They've come 852 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:39,799 Speaker 4: back from a lot, so I really believe in them. 853 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 4: And then the other thing is I do this every day. 854 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:44,719 Speaker 4: Every day I think about trees. So if I was 855 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 4: really doomor about it, it'd be a tough life. I've 856 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 4: inherently an optimist despite the things that I work on. 857 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:52,240 Speaker 4: I think that we can really solve some of these problems. 858 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,640 Speaker 4: That every problem can be solved, or we can solve. 859 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 4: You know, at least white Oak is solvable. This is 860 00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:58,320 Speaker 4: at least something we could do about. 861 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:02,400 Speaker 1: And the other any you know actually uh past periods 862 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,880 Speaker 1: you mentioned the resilience where we can look up. 863 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,640 Speaker 2: Can you talk about the sheep bubble in Connecticut in 864 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 2: New England and how that led to a massive nooning 865 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,399 Speaker 2: of the forest and since then they've actually built back 866 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:15,479 Speaker 2: the forest quite well. 867 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:18,279 Speaker 4: Yeah, so there was there's just a ton of sheep, 868 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,080 Speaker 4: and sheep riped stuff up. They don't just cut the 869 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,160 Speaker 4: top off like a deer doe, they'll actually rip it 870 00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:28,720 Speaker 4: out and ripped it all out, no more, no more food. 871 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 4: Sheep had to go west. So you see a lot 872 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:32,120 Speaker 4: of sheep out west. So then the forestly came back. 873 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:36,160 Speaker 4: Another fun one is the Civil War, so Maine has 874 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,440 Speaker 4: on the flag, you have a sailor and a farmer. 875 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,200 Speaker 4: We think of Maine today as mainly forested. Well after 876 00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,880 Speaker 4: the Civil War, like Maine had the largest number of injured, 877 00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,399 Speaker 4: like people missing limbs, and so they couldn't go out 878 00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 4: and log, and then the forest just pop right back up, 879 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:54,000 Speaker 4: you know, Maine us you used to they used to 880 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:58,400 Speaker 4: say you could drive a wagon from bangor Oh down 881 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,840 Speaker 4: to you know, like can without needing to be on 882 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,600 Speaker 4: a road. But if you look, if you go drive 883 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,920 Speaker 4: around main today, it's very well forced. These places can 884 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,879 Speaker 4: come back, you know. I've seen some really you know, 885 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:14,200 Speaker 4: degraded habitat and if you do management, they respond well. 886 00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,760 Speaker 4: The native plants are there. They're very good at living 887 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,279 Speaker 4: and growing if you give them a chance. There are 888 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,480 Speaker 4: some species that are really imperiled, like ash and hemlock, 889 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:24,080 Speaker 4: but oak is not one of those. 890 00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:24,520 Speaker 3: Luckily. 891 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:27,440 Speaker 1: I think that's a great place to leave it. It's 892 00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:31,000 Speaker 1: like very exciting and very like optimistic we've solved these 893 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,040 Speaker 1: problems in the past. I didn't know there was a 894 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 1: sheep Did you know that? Was that just something you 895 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:37,759 Speaker 1: knew about or did you like that? 896 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,360 Speaker 2: No, that's something I knew about. So to Calvin's point 897 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:42,960 Speaker 2: about once you start learning about these things, you just 898 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,720 Speaker 2: go down this slie this hole. But yeah, I started 899 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,600 Speaker 2: because I bought that land in Connecticut three acres. I 900 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,440 Speaker 2: started getting really into this, so I know all about 901 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,640 Speaker 2: like King's planks and houses and the big trees, and 902 00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,600 Speaker 2: how blue jays are responsible for the distribution of a 903 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,880 Speaker 2: lot of oaks in North America, and also about the 904 00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:04,680 Speaker 2: Great sheep Bubble of the eighteen hundreds and how that 905 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,360 Speaker 2: led to mass deforestation that we actually fixed. 906 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:09,480 Speaker 1: We need to do a sheep bubble episode. 907 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:10,239 Speaker 2: I'd be into that. 908 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,399 Speaker 3: I'm not the sheepga. I'm gonna you gotta find somebody else. 909 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:14,439 Speaker 3: I know a lot of people in eggs, so all. 910 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,480 Speaker 1: Right, well you can help with me the Kelvin Norman. 911 00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:21,320 Speaker 1: This was such a fun episode. I learned so many 912 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,719 Speaker 1: facts that I'm going to be that person in the 913 00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:25,840 Speaker 1: corner of the meme is like they don't know and 914 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,239 Speaker 1: the like you need you need. 915 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:29,759 Speaker 2: To get to the level where you can start pointing 916 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:31,960 Speaker 2: at wood and being like, oh, yeah, no, I want 917 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:32,120 Speaker 2: to go. 918 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,480 Speaker 1: To a black This is so cool. Calvin, thank you 919 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:36,040 Speaker 1: so much for coming on Outlaws. 920 00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, no problem, Thanks for having me. And what's you know, Tracy, 921 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:40,400 Speaker 4: to your point, what's you kind of get into this? 922 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:42,799 Speaker 4: You really send the roots out and really you really 923 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:43,480 Speaker 4: dig into it. 924 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:46,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, Cynthia, thank you so much. That was great. 925 00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,520 Speaker 1: It was fun. Calvin, thank you, thank you for having me. 926 00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:04,080 Speaker 3: Tracy. 927 00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,319 Speaker 1: I love that episode, And now, like I absolutely could 928 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,760 Speaker 1: see how one could get really obsessed with learning about trees. 929 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,120 Speaker 1: And now you know, I'm sorry jealous of your like 930 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,560 Speaker 1: multi acres. I already was, but no more jealous. 931 00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:16,279 Speaker 2: You have to come and see the trees. I bought 932 00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:18,239 Speaker 2: a label maker so that I can. Some of the 933 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,279 Speaker 2: trees are already labeled, but I'm actually busy labeling the 934 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:21,960 Speaker 2: rest of them. 935 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,640 Speaker 1: There were so many things I liked about that episode. 936 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:27,799 Speaker 1: But I did really like the fact that, like, this 937 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,239 Speaker 1: is a problem that's coming, but the possibility that this 938 00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:32,760 Speaker 1: is also a solvable problem. 939 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,640 Speaker 2: It's nice to have a sort of environmental climate change 940 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,320 Speaker 2: related supply chain episode that doesn't end with, well, this 941 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:40,600 Speaker 2: problem is unfixable. 942 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:42,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, because we talked about some of these things like, 943 00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:46,400 Speaker 1: oh this is bleak, but this is tough. But you know, 944 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:49,040 Speaker 1: and there's some interesting economics, the fact that it's really 945 00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:52,000 Speaker 1: long term, the coordination of all these like sort of 946 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:57,080 Speaker 1: like small scale non commercial holders of the acreage, the 947 00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:00,319 Speaker 1: tension between the type of trees that grow best, sort 948 00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:03,640 Speaker 1: of like perfect rows for houses versus what the coopers 949 00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:05,719 Speaker 1: need for the barrels. Like so many sort of like 950 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:08,040 Speaker 1: economic things I would not have really thought about at all. 951 00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:10,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I do think, And again I don't want to 952 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:12,920 Speaker 2: necessarily end this on a downnoe, but it does seem 953 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:16,480 Speaker 2: like the ownership structure is kind of the challenge here 954 00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:20,800 Speaker 2: because you don't necessarily have all these big commercial forest growers. 955 00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:24,360 Speaker 2: Instead you have small scale farmers, individual owners, and you 956 00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:26,520 Speaker 2: kind of have to talk to them educate them about 957 00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:27,600 Speaker 2: how to grow these trees. 958 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,959 Speaker 1: Absolutely well, anyway, that was great and maybe I'll maybe 959 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:31,960 Speaker 1: I'll become a tree person. 960 00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,240 Speaker 2: You should. Actually, I was going to recommend a really 961 00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:35,760 Speaker 2: good book. 962 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:36,200 Speaker 1: Tell me. 963 00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:41,719 Speaker 2: It's Tom Wessel's reading The Forested Landscape. Okay, and it's 964 00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,960 Speaker 2: amazing because it has pictures of forest landscapes and It 965 00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:46,879 Speaker 2: kind of tells you all the things to look at 966 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:49,600 Speaker 2: to study the forest's history and learn about it. So 967 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:52,000 Speaker 2: you can look at a forest and you can figure out, like, 968 00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,120 Speaker 2: where did the big storms come from, how did this 969 00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:58,719 Speaker 2: forest actually grow? What kind of a forest is it? 970 00:45:58,719 --> 00:45:59,560 Speaker 2: It's really interesting. 971 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:00,759 Speaker 1: Have to check it out. 972 00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:02,200 Speaker 2: Shall we leave it there? 973 00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:02,960 Speaker 1: Let's leave it there? 974 00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:05,480 Speaker 2: All right? This has been another episode of the Odd 975 00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:08,319 Speaker 2: Lots podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on 976 00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:09,720 Speaker 2: Twitter at Tracy Alloway. 977 00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,320 Speaker 1: And I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me on Twitter 978 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:16,760 Speaker 1: at the Stalwart. Follow our producers Carmen Rodriguez at Carmen 979 00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:19,920 Speaker 1: Arman and Dash Bennett at Dashbock. Follow all of the 980 00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:23,719 Speaker 1: Bloomberg podcasts under the handle at podcasts, and for more 981 00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:26,960 Speaker 1: Oddlots content, go to Bloomberg dot com slash odd Lots. 982 00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,520 Speaker 1: We have a blog, we post transcripts, we have a newsletter, 983 00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:32,960 Speaker 1: and these days we even have a discord. Go to 984 00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:36,319 Speaker 1: discord dot gg slash odd lots and come and hang 985 00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:38,560 Speaker 1: out and chat twenty four to seven with other listeners 986 00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:41,000 Speaker 1: about all of the topics you can talk about on 987 00:46:41,080 --> 00:47:10,920 Speaker 1: the show. And thanks for listening and watch it fail