1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. M 4 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. My name is Matt. They 5 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: call me Ben. We are joined, of course, with our 6 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: super producer Paul Decon on the ones and two's. Most importantly, 7 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: you are here, You are you, and that makes this 8 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. That's what this is. 9 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: Brand new logo rocking feeling good. Yeah, that's true. We 10 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 1: have the six finger logo designed by the way, by 11 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: our super producer Paul Paul nice work, Sir, with consultation 12 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: from our graphic artist team. Yeah. Pam, Yeah, we can 13 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:04,320 Speaker 1: your name, It's okay, Pam is awesome, Pam Peacock. Yeah. 14 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: And we have a situation here wherein it maybe deceptively 15 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 1: easy to think that there are only three or four 16 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: people involved in stuff they don't want you to know. 17 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: That could not be further from the truth, because this podcast, 18 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:28,759 Speaker 1: like many many other things in the world, has an 19 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: entire team behind the curtain, actively working to make stuff 20 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: like this sound easy. I think we have the easiest 21 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: jobs on the team to be honest. Oh absolutely. We 22 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 1: We just get in here and ramble. Man, That's what 23 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: I do. You you do the hard stuff. I just 24 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: go whale bend. Guess what what I fell for? You 25 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: see there you go? No, no, no no. But the 26 00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: reason we're bringing up this idea of a team that 27 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: often is not acknowledged is because today's episode dives into 28 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: something that could easily be seen as the um the 29 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 1: actions of just a few isolated people. Absolutely, maybe just 30 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: fifty two of them, perhaps as few as fifty two. 31 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 1: But as we're going to find, just like this podcast, 32 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: today's topic has many, many, many, many more people in play, 33 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: some of whom remain mysterious and unidentified today. If you're 34 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: listening to this show, then you probably won't be surprised. 35 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: Matt and I are going to go out on a 36 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: limb and assume you will not be surprised to learn 37 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: that most governments, at one point or another, love Them 38 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: or Hatum, have perpetrated secret, illegal programs against either their 39 00:02:55,520 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: citizens or citizens of another country. And since our show 40 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: is based in the US, we naturally tend to explore 41 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: stories based in this country. This one is new exception, 42 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: but it's one you may not have heard of before. 43 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: Today we're exploring a classified program known as Operation Chaos. Yes, 44 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: and to discuss this program, we need to take ourselves 45 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: back to nineteen fifty four onwards just a little bit there, 46 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: to the Second Indo China War. You probably don't know 47 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:29,359 Speaker 1: it is that. You probably know it as the Vietnam War. 48 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: I know. That's how I was a little while ago. 49 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: It was a conflict between North and South Vietnam, which 50 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: were two separate countries at the time, and it lasted 51 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: from nineteen fifty four until nineteen seventy five. Now this 52 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: is distilling it like crazy, but this is just to 53 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: say what it is. And you probably already know this. 54 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: North Vietnam was a communist government. It was run by 55 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: a communist government, and they worked with these rebels in 56 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: South Vietnam who were called the Vietcong, and together they 57 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: attempted to overthrow the government of South Vietnam. And this 58 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: was a terrible, terrible conflict that cost the lives of 59 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: so many and we'll discuss that here shortly um but ultimately, 60 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: the physical combat took place in both South Vietnam and 61 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 1: North Vietnam. Laos and Cambodia, which are immediately to the 62 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: west of the Vietnam of Vietnam, that's right there, and 63 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: I guess spoiler alert. Ultimately the North Vietnamese were successful 64 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 1: in their attempts to overthrow the South Vietnamese government. Yeah. Yeah, 65 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: and along the way the US got involved. You may 66 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: have heard us reference earlier instances surrounding the the catalyst 67 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: that set the US on a path to war in 68 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: this part of the world, the most controversial one being 69 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: the Gulf of Tonkin incident, which did we do a 70 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:01,599 Speaker 1: whole episode on that? Editor? Do we just do false flags? 71 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:03,840 Speaker 1: We did false Flags and we rediscussed it at length, 72 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: but you know, maybe we could go deeper. Who knows? 73 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: Who knows? Check out the false Flags episode if you 74 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: have yet to do so. There's some pretty interesting stuff there. 75 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: For now, we're going to explore the not not the 76 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: entire Vietnam War, because this is the setup right to 77 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 1: Operation Chaos. We're going to look at the people the 78 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 1: US sent to wage this war. The Vietnam War, as 79 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: it's called in the US, used a conscription system, a draft, 80 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: and that is something that hasn't occurred since. Roughly two 81 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: point seven million US soldiers served in Vietnam, and of those, 82 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: two point seven million around were draftees, meaning that they 83 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: were forced to go, and in most cases it would 84 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 1: be a crime for them to refuse to serve the war. 85 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: Regardless of their ideological or political affiliations. There are cases 86 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: where you could be a conscientious objector, for instance, a 87 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 1: pacifist or a so called pacifist like the Quakers. Lindon 88 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 1: laruche was raised a Quaker, which will be important a 89 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 1: little bit later today's show. Or Muhammad Ali who was 90 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: a conscientious objector. Yeah, and so conscientious objection is a 91 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 1: genuine thing, but there were a lot of people who 92 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: high tailed it to Canada, for instance, because they felt 93 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: like they wouldn't be able to make a case for 94 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 1: conscientious objection, that they would have been popped into the 95 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 1: shaking bake system and then sent off to die in 96 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: the jungle. That's how a lot of people looked at it. Yeah, 97 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: especially towards the end of the Vietnam conflict, as as 98 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:57,239 Speaker 1: the propaganda and the truth of the situation was coming forward, 99 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: and many many, many other people, as you can tell 100 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: from the statistics, about seventy of the forces there volunteered 101 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: or we're already career military, and not all of these 102 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: people came back. We discussed this briefly in our episode 103 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: on the allegations of POWs left behind in Vietnam, which 104 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: is still a contentious topic of conversation, right because there's 105 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: simply not enough proof one way or the other, unfortunately, 106 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: And we know that of the people who went to 107 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: the roughly two point seven million, not everybody made it home. 108 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: That's the reality. But we have the actual numbers to right, Yeah, 109 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: one out of every ten Americans who served in Vietnam 110 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: was in some way a casualty. There was somewhere between 111 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: fifty eight thousand and two d and twenty that were killed, 112 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: just killed while they were there, and then another three 113 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: hundred and four thousand that were wounded. And that's an 114 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:11,119 Speaker 1: estimate there, right. Yeah. The oldest and this is again 115 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: just on the U. S side, The oldest person on 116 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: the U. S side killed was sixty two years old. 117 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: Of the people who were killed, sixty one percent, more 118 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: than half were younger than twenty one Wow, And more 119 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: than eleven thousand of those killed were younger than twenty 120 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: and five people who were killed in Vietnam were only 121 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: sixteen years old. That's again on the American side. It's 122 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 1: very important because there are a lot of people under 123 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:42,719 Speaker 1: sixteen years old that died that were not on the 124 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: American side, that were civilians that we're simply trying to 125 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: live their lives. So let's look at the Vietnamese side. 126 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: The US military estimates that between two hundred thousand and 127 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: two hundred fifty thousand South Vietnamese soldiers died in the war. 128 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:05,679 Speaker 1: And in nineteen Vietnam released its official estimate of war casualties, 129 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: and it's cited as many as two million civilians on 130 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: both sides, the North Vietnamese and South Vietnamese side, and 131 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: they said an addition, there were one point one million 132 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: North Vietnamese and Viet Kong soldier casualties. That is unthinkable. 133 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: It's a blood bath. Yeah. Well, you know, the overall 134 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: tonnage of bombs that were dropped during the Vietnam War 135 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: exceeds that of if you add up most of World 136 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: War two, of just if you think about the the 137 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 1: amount of munition that was used there, it exceeds almost 138 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: all of World War Two, which is insane, and in 139 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: many cases some of that ordinance remains allows right, right, 140 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 1: and the US conducted secret illegal operations in Cambodia and 141 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 1: Laos particular. A lot of people here in the US 142 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: agreed with the war, and a lot of people did not. 143 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:12,559 Speaker 1: And this is where we hit upon the concept of deserters. 144 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: Deserters would be a little bit different from draft dodgers. Yes, yeah, 145 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: So if you're a draft dodger, your number gets called up, 146 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: they pull your card and you say, for one reason 147 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: or another, forget this, I'm out of here. I'm going 148 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: to Canada and going into Europe. I'm gonna head out 149 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: for the Southern continent, you know. And there were organizations 150 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,839 Speaker 1: set up to assist people that wanted to dodge the draft. 151 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 1: That's a that's a pejorative kind of a draft dodger. 152 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: But like they wanted to, um, what what is a 153 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: better way? They did not want to participate in a 154 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: war with which they did not agree. Oh there you go. 155 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:58,679 Speaker 1: But yeah, they they just they disagreed. Um. But if 156 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about what a deserter is an 157 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:05,839 Speaker 1: actual deserter, this is um. The military has a classification 158 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 1: for this, and it is that it's any person that's 159 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 1: been absent without leave a service member mind you, uh, 160 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,839 Speaker 1: for more than thirty days. Thirty days or less, you're 161 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: a wall, right, yes, exactly, And you have to be 162 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 1: an active member of the military to be considered a deserter. 163 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: And desertion is something that occurs in almost every war. Yes, 164 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: it's it's often looked down upon. It's seen as an 165 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: unpatriotic move, to say the least, and at times it's 166 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: seen as tremendously unethical. Right, the idea of being that 167 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 1: someone has already to some extent agreed to serve in 168 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: a military and then they have gone back on their 169 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: word or the vow they took, the oath they took, 170 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: and Vietnam was no different. In fact, quite a few 171 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 1: people deserted during Vietnam. Yeah. According to reports from nineteen 172 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 1: seventy two from uh let's see July nineteen sixty six. 173 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: Until November nineteen seventy two, around four hundred and twenty 174 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 1: three thousand United States military personnel were classified as deserters. 175 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 1: Now again they've been classified as deserters. It doesn't mean 176 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: that that's necessarily, you know, whatever the situation they're going through. 177 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: Those are very they're varying to a large extent, but 178 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: um they're classified that way by the military. Now, uh, 179 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 1: let's see, by July of nineteen seventy two, according to 180 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: this report, a large number of these people were quote 181 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: returned to military control. That's a three hundred and ninety 182 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: one thousand of the four hundred and twenty three thousand, 183 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,959 Speaker 1: so they were returned to military control. And it's interesting 184 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,599 Speaker 1: because this around this time frame nineteen sixty six to 185 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two, this is when the US military began 186 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:03,199 Speaker 1: even try king these numbers because they had been relatively 187 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: low in the past. If you if you look at 188 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: World War two, there were sixteen point three million Americans 189 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: who served in some capacity in the military during World 190 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: War Two, and there were only an estimated forty thousand 191 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: deserters at that time. But again, like, when do those numbers? 192 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,319 Speaker 1: When are those numbers put forth? Is it after you've 193 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: returned a lot of the other ones to military control? 194 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: Are they still considered deserters in that number? It gets 195 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: a little ficiy because they weren't tracking it very well, right, Yeah, 196 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: And again these are official numbers which will almost always 197 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: differ from actual numbers, especially when you get into the 198 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: big government stuff. When whenever a government reports bad news, 199 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 1: about itself. Yeah, there's going to be a difference between 200 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: what what is officially said and what actually happened. But 201 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: let's not get lost in the numbers, right, Let's let's 202 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: explore these deserters as people. They didn't one day, well, 203 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 1: not to speculate too much, but most of them did 204 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: not one day say you know, I gave it a shot. Uh, 205 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna I'm just gonna hide out. These people, 206 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: being rational, intelligent beings, had a series of desires and 207 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 1: motivations and fears and ambitions that drove them to commit 208 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: this act of desertion. But what are those reasons? What 209 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: are those motivations? Will get to that after a word 210 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: from our sponsor, we're back. And the first reason for 211 00:14:54,960 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 1: desertion is incredibly dare I say, painfully apparent. It is 212 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: the fear of physical harm or death. That's the one 213 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: that stands right out. Like, Hey, for instance, I'm born 214 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: in Nebraska, right, and I was easily going to live 215 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: most of my life in my small town. I was 216 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: gonna go watch the local high school or college games. 217 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: And now because someone I never met in Washington, d C. 218 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: Has a problem with Vietnam, now here, I am I 219 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: don't know these people. I don't speak Vietnamese. That guy 220 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: next to me got shot in the head. This is terrible, 221 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: that's understandable. And people have people deserted for fear of 222 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: being the next head shot at times. Right, and then 223 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: the calculation, Again, this is not to deride people were 224 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: attempting to illustrate the psychological process. Uh, they reached the 225 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: point where the instinct for self preservation outweighed the social 226 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: obligation to do one's duty or the ideological belief that 227 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: what they're doing is more important than their safety. Right. Yeah, 228 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: And I'm so glad you mentioned that, because that's another 229 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: reason for desertion. Right, ideological differences. Maybe I don't agree 230 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: that the way of life we are fighting for, you know, 231 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: the stated goals of removing communism or saving this country 232 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: from communist and invaders, Maybe I don't agree with it, right, Yeah, 233 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: maybe maybe you agreed with it originally, right when you 234 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: signed up in northern California or Oregon or something, and 235 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: then you went to the war and you saw what 236 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: was happening on the ground, and you said, this is 237 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: not what I believe to be. Just I'm not afraid 238 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: of dying, but I will not be a part of 239 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: this thing with which I disagree. Yeah, and that that's 240 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 1: a whole other situation there. When you're looking at the 241 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 1: actual operations that occurred in some of the tragedies and 242 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:08,440 Speaker 1: massacres that were h it's true that we're perpetrated by 243 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 1: the U. S. Military, and it's unfortunate fact and sometimes 244 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 1: perpetrated by factions of the U. S. Military without the approval. Yes, oh, 245 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:25,439 Speaker 1: absolutely larger entities, but yes, those atrocities did occur. A 246 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: third reason for an individual to desert would be a 247 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 1: little bit more mercenary, an opportunity for a new life, 248 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: for celebrity, for material goods, material gain, or for profit. So, 249 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: for example, you can think of the stories of people 250 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: in the Korean War. There have been a couple of 251 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: guys who deserted to the DPRK, to the Democratic People's 252 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: Republic of Korea, and when they deserted, they were occasionally 253 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: treated like celebrities. They were the bad Americans and the 254 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:08,360 Speaker 1: propaganda films, they were literally movie stars. Yeah, it did 255 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: not end well for them, to be clear about that. 256 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:16,159 Speaker 1: I think one guy recently was I believe he was 257 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 1: allowed to see his mother before she passed, she lived 258 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 1: his He lived most of his life in North Korea. 259 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 1: But those are the reasons. Fear of physical harm don't 260 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:33,159 Speaker 1: kill me. Ideological differences. I disagree with the concept or 261 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: the motivations for this war, or the opportunity, the self 262 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: serving opportunity to you know, be famous, to get paid. Okay, Yeah, 263 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: and those are I mean, there are nuances to all. 264 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: But let's let's look at the other side of this 265 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 1: war as well. There was not just a physical side 266 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: of this large proxy war between capitalism and communism. There 267 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:10,640 Speaker 1: was an ideological side, and war was functioning as a business. 268 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: War has always been about resource extraction, control, suppression, management, 269 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:23,160 Speaker 1: et cetera. And deserters were another resource to be exploited. 270 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 1: Oh yes, by other countries, by by enemies of the state. Yeah, 271 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: for the USSR and communism at large, deserters are fantastic, 272 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 1: especially if they come over to your side. The best 273 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,919 Speaker 1: anti war advertisements are always going to be images of 274 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 1: a wonderful life somehow better on the other side of 275 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: the trenches, the other side of the conflict. In the US, 276 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: for instance, of you'll see propaganda that touts amenities like 277 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: we have refrigerators, we have new automobiles. Why are you fighting? 278 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: You can buy four kinds of ham are grocery stores. 279 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: Think about how much food you can cook with this microwave? 280 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 1: M m m exactly. You know this idea of selling 281 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 1: again in the American dream, the retrofuturistic Jetson's life. Another 282 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: thing that is enormously beneficial from a propaganda perspective is 283 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 1: testimony from deserters actual word of mouth. Don't believe this 284 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 1: advertisement about the microwave. Oh, I don't believe. I don't know. 285 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 1: I don't believe that at all. You know why, because 286 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: I've seen it before and that all that microwave does 287 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 1: is burn your food and it just makes things soggy. 288 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 1: Don't listen to them. Join the revolution, yeah, whatever that 289 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 1: revolution might be at the time. Yeah, spot on. You 290 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: will tend to believe a person more so than an idea, 291 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 1: especially depending on how that person is presented to you. 292 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,120 Speaker 1: There you go. So this is a crucial ideological tool 293 00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: for the forces opposing the US in the Indo China 294 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 1: Vietnam conflict. Often these two propaganda opportunities were combined in 295 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: anti US operations. A deserter laments the injustices of the 296 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: war and imperialistic US culture overall, and then pivots to 297 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:21,679 Speaker 1: tout the freedom they encountered after crossing over. That freedom 298 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: might not be what the Western world would think of 299 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: his freedom. It might not be necessarily freedom of speech. 300 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 1: It might be portrayed as freedom to join the great 301 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: collective pushing in for a better world, or something like that. 302 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: You know, but what about European nations. A lot of 303 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: times European nations are they want to be seen as 304 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: neutral parties when there's something like this going on, some 305 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,199 Speaker 1: kind of conflict of this nature, or or maybe they 306 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: want to be a safe haven where either a deserter 307 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: or otherwise could come and you know, live in their land, um, 308 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 1: just to show that there or not on either side 309 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 1: really of the conflict, like you can come here, We'll 310 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,400 Speaker 1: give you safe passage. You know, you can stay here 311 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 1: for X number of days or weeks or years, um. 312 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: And just to show that they can act on their 313 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: own accord and not be influenced by again usually the 314 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 1: US or whichever whichever countries in the power right, like 315 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 1: the old Disney Pinocchio, I have no strings. I can 316 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 1: act unilaterally, yes, and we will help you out. But 317 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 1: we also won't. You know, we won't. We won't really 318 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 1: help or hurt you, but we'll give you safe haven, right, Yeah, 319 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 1: a refugee status perhaps, or a a visa. In Sweden 320 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: in particular, many deserters joined something called the American Deserters Committee, 321 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: named in what kind of I can only imagine is 322 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: a burst of creativity. Yes, sorry, that's maybe it's they 323 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 1: had other stuff going on. I'm sure they didn't spend 324 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: you know, a week workshopping the name. Yeah, and there 325 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 1: were American Deserters Committees throughout several countries that kind of 326 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 1: popped up to do a similar thing. So what were 327 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,640 Speaker 1: they doing. Well, they really just wanted to have some 328 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: kind of united front for deserters voice, for everyone to 329 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,959 Speaker 1: speak in unison, right like, all deserters together. This is 330 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:23,679 Speaker 1: this is us. We we are we have a powerful voice. Ah. Yes, 331 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: we are now a voting block of some sort or 332 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: we can unite. And now it's not just one or 333 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:36,120 Speaker 1: two of us occasionally on uh anti war television spots. 334 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: It's a huge group of us, all at once a 335 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: stage protest. Yeah, and we can issue a statement from us, 336 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:50,160 Speaker 1: not just from me, um Matt the deserter. Good call, 337 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,239 Speaker 1: I didn't even think about that. It sounds so much 338 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:57,400 Speaker 1: more official. Uncle Sam was predictably concerned, very much so, 339 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 1: because there sards for the US when it comes to 340 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: deserters from the war, and one of the it's it's 341 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,120 Speaker 1: tough to say which is more important, but we can 342 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,160 Speaker 1: walk through a couple of them in no particular order. 343 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: Then public opinion support for the war is incredibly fragile. 344 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 1: On the domestic front. The role of the media in 345 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: the Vietnam War, especially as it escalated, cannot be overstated. 346 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: This was not World War Two, where information was often 347 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 1: carefully managed for the domestic front. Journalists were out there, 348 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 1: sixty something of them got killed in the process, but 349 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: they were showing things that the American public would not 350 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,360 Speaker 1: expect to see, and in many cases was not supposed 351 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: to see, would not normally see in any kind of 352 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: conflict like this. And because of this, the US was 353 00:24:55,440 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: unable to entirely suppress the flow of domestic in information 354 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:04,880 Speaker 1: from domestic sources, much less suppressed the flow of anti 355 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:09,159 Speaker 1: war messages from abroad. Can't It's tough to scramble a 356 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: short wave radio, you know what I mean. And there 357 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 1: was a tremendous and plausible, very well founded concern that 358 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: anti war movements in the US could trigger massive domestic unrest. 359 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 1: We're talking about the fall of states and follow the 360 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:31,640 Speaker 1: rule of law, and that if the American public sympathized 361 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: with deserters who could not return home and who also 362 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 1: implicitly avoided the legal consequences of desertion, then the powder 363 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: head would explode. People would watch this and say, these 364 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 1: people deserve to come back to our homeland. And I 365 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 1: guess our homeland is not as powerful as it wants 366 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 1: us to believe. Right, if the ideological foundations begin to crumble, 367 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: then every thing does. It sounds kind of abstract, but 368 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 1: I think you're right. Yeah, I don't know. People are 369 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 1: so weird, you know, like there's so many things that 370 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 1: if we if we attempted to explain to an extraterrestrial civilization, 371 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 1: we would sound insane. Oh hey, welcome, let me take 372 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: you two. Our leaders hop in this we call the car. 373 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 1: And then the aliens like, why are we stopping? Oh 374 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: we have to wait for this thing to change colors? 375 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 1: Why there's no one here. It's it's just the thing 376 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 1: we do. Man. Be cool, Be cool. We're on the 377 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: way to see the president. Wait, hold on, are you 378 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 1: saying Are you saying that I shouldn't follow traffic signals 379 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: if there's no one around, I cannot legally I agree 380 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: with that. No, I'm using it as just a poor example. No, No, 381 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: it's not worrivable. It's weird because we'll we'll sit. I 382 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,920 Speaker 1: think most deaf has a as a great line about 383 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 1: that on on Black Star when um they're quoting up 384 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: Home in one of the songs where a guy says, 385 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 1: we were sitting three deep into traffic stop talking about 386 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,640 Speaker 1: how brainwashed some of our brothers and sisters are while 387 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 1: we waited for a green light to tell us when 388 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: to go. It sounds way better when when you hear 389 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 1: the yeah and there's a nice beat behind it. Yeah. 390 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 1: But this, I mean, we're we're pointing out, hopefully that 391 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 1: the ideological things, the programmed behaviors of people are very 392 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,920 Speaker 1: easily normalized and accepted, and it doesn't take as much 393 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 1: as you might think to disrupt those things. Right, we're gullible. 394 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: How many people did you see wearing a tie today? 395 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: Why do they do that? What does a tie do? 396 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: What's the point? What's the point of a tie? Okay, 397 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 1: so no, you're good. You're good on my mind for 398 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: a while. I get it, man, I feel the same way. 399 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 1: I'm just not as vocal about it. I need to start, 400 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,159 Speaker 1: you know, saying the things I think I feel like. 401 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 1: I like saying that ties are silly is maybe not 402 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:08,639 Speaker 1: the best way to start a revolution. But anyway, ideology aside. Sorry, 403 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: I went off the rails on that one. That, uh, 404 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 1: there are other things that are perhaps more material. Oh yeah, 405 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,400 Speaker 1: the other The next one has to do with triangulation. Really, so, 406 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 1: let's imagine that you are another country, right, You're an 407 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,479 Speaker 1: intelligence officer for another country, and there's a group of 408 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: American deserters. You you meet one of them, and you 409 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 1: start talking to them. Maybe you even let's say capture them, 410 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 1: or maybe maybe you don't even have to capture. Maybe 411 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 1: you just have some drinks with them at a r 412 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 1: H and you get intelligence from this person. You're essentially 413 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 1: interrogating them, right, one individual, one small group of individuals, 414 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: and you get any and all relevant information that you 415 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: can from these people. Operation aims programs, both ongoing ones 416 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: that are occurring right now, ones from the past. You 417 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 1: can get all hinds of details about your enemy with 418 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 1: somebody like this. And then here's the deal I said triangulation. 419 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 1: You take that information you've gathered, then you compare and 420 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 1: contrast it to another individual, perhaps that you met at 421 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: another bar or that was also captured. Okay, question them separately. Yeah, 422 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 1: and now you've got leads. You've got real leads. You 423 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: can you can decide what is probably bunk, what is 424 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: probably real. Um, I don't know. It's a it's a 425 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: gold mine for an intelligence mind. Yeah, yeah, because then 426 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: you would be able to falsify misinformation. Oh yeah, right, 427 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 1: unless the people you were questioning already had an established 428 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: story or narrative, you would ultimately be able to find 429 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: out what they were thinking, where they were going. And 430 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: this can lead to all these massive insights. And there's 431 00:29:54,240 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 1: a sticky think here. It's a it's logical then in 432 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: a world of rational actors, which all nations and states are, 433 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: It's logical then that you could be in a situation 434 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: as a leader of a country where you can rationalize 435 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 1: the death of a single prisoner or deserter because it 436 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: can be framed as a effective way, albeit brutal, an 437 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 1: effective way of saving the lives of multiple other people. 438 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: And when we say rationalize the death of a deserter 439 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 1: a prisoner. That doesn't just mean abandoning them, leaving them 440 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: in the cold, or throwing them to the wolves. That 441 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: also could mean sending one of your own people to 442 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: get rid of them. Possibility. Yeah, it's an unfortunate comparison, 443 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: but I think it works of the mafia. If you 444 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 1: join the mafia in some capacity or another, or let's 445 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: just say an organized crime association, leaving that group is 446 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: probably not a good idea, just because of for that saint, 447 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:03,719 Speaker 1: for the information that you have, for the loose end 448 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: that you become. You know, Can I make a confession 449 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: to you, man, I have never seen The Sopranos? What 450 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: is it good? I love it? Do you really? I really? 451 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: Did you have seen it? Do I have? I've seen 452 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 1: it twice all the way through. Should I watch it? 453 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 1: I mean I would recommend it. What do you think? Anyone? 454 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: Do you Sopranos? Yeah, Tony, I read the WICKI does that? Sure? 455 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: That's all you need? Paul, Paul Paul? Or did you 456 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: watch the Sopranos? Oh? I didn't watch it either. It's 457 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: classic HBO. It's like, all right, I will watch it. 458 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: You are the one who told me to watch the wire. Yeah. Wow, 459 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: I was one of those guys. Huh no, do the 460 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 1: wire is so good? Paul, you gotta watch the Wire. 461 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: Man is so good? It really was. It was great. 462 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: But yeah, I like the out of it so that 463 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: I think your comparison holds up this idea of Omerta, 464 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: this idea of silence above all right, the idea that 465 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 1: this is a one way entry organization that does apply, 466 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: maybe not to all militaries, maybe not even to the U. S. Military, 467 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: but that applies to a lot of things when we 468 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: start talking about the murky world of government secrecy. And 469 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: then deserters are also very very useful as another form 470 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 1: of propaganda. Propaganda advertised two soldiers in the field, actively 471 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 1: occurring while soldiers are trying to fight, like in a battle. Yeah, 472 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 1: and there were radio stations that would bombard people with 473 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: broadcasting several of several of you listening to today's episode, 474 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: maybe Vietnam veterans, and we would be intensely interested to 475 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 1: hear whether you personally encountered this sort of propaganda. Some 476 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 1: something like Hanoy Hannah Whenever, which would release these broadcasts 477 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: in English telling soldiers how useless, the u S side 478 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: of the war was, and how dumb it was to 479 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 1: be there. So imagine you're up to your waist and 480 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 1: mud and filth, and you're marching your feed, rotting in 481 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: your socks. The rain hasn't stopped for three days, and 482 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: at this point everybody knows it's it's just not going 483 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: to Some of your friends and acquaintances have just died. 484 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: And then you hear a radio broadcast featuring a soldier 485 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: who sounds like he could be from your hometown in 486 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: Nebraska and Kansas and Oregon in California, and they're talking 487 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 1: about the injustices of war, the freedom of life in 488 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 1: neutral Sweden or Europe, the ideological struggle and progress occurring 489 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 1: in communist Russia. How much more marching do you have 490 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 1: in you with all these things bombarding you? What is 491 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: the limit? That's where that first one, the public opinion 492 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:12,840 Speaker 1: and the ideological foundations are so important, because if you 493 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 1: don't have, if you don't have that stuff as just steal, 494 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 1: if that stuff is not steal in your mind, then 495 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 1: maybe your chips away enough to get you to go. Yeah. 496 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 1: And in many cases we must be said that that 497 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:34,319 Speaker 1: kind of attempt at brainwashing might just make somebody more 498 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: resolute in their existing convictions, and I'm sure that has happened. 499 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,800 Speaker 1: But due to these concerns, which again are not specific 500 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 1: to the Vietnam War, they echo throughout history, and they're 501 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 1: not specific to the US either. They echo throughout cultures. 502 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 1: Due to these concerns, countries have legal punishments for the 503 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 1: act of desertion, incredibly hard punishments. In the US, any 504 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 1: person found guilty of desertion or attempt to desert shall 505 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 1: be punished. If the offense is committed in a time 506 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,840 Speaker 1: of war, they will be punished by death or such 507 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,399 Speaker 1: other punishment as a court martial might direct. But if 508 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 1: the desertion or attempt to desert occurs at any other time, 509 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 1: by such punishment other than death, as a court martial 510 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 1: may direct. What that means is, if we're in a 511 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: war and you run away, technically you're just gonna get shot. 512 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,879 Speaker 1: It's the death penalty. Yeah, if you you might get 513 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,759 Speaker 1: court martialed and sentenced to several years in jail or 514 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,359 Speaker 1: something like that. And in some cases in the Vietnam War, 515 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: there would be attempts to negotiate with deserters where people 516 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,719 Speaker 1: would say, through one entity or another, they would say, hey, well, 517 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: if you agree to come with us voluntarily, then you know, 518 00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 1: just have a year in prison. Dishonorable this charge. Go 519 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 1: on with your life. We get it, war as hell, 520 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 1: come in from the cold. But still it's tough to 521 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,239 Speaker 1: believe people when they say things like that, especially if 522 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: you know legally it is a death sentence. Julia Songs, 523 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,359 Speaker 1: just come on over, man, it's gonna be fine. We're 524 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 1: going to treat you well. What's ecuadour goad that we 525 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 1: ain't got? Oh too soon, too soon, We should do 526 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 1: an update on him soon. But with all this in 527 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:37,360 Speaker 1: in play, we have to ask ourselves, how far would 528 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 1: Uncle Sam go to by hook or by crook bring 529 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,440 Speaker 1: its soldiers home? And we'll find out right after a 530 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:53,880 Speaker 1: word from our sponsor. Here's where it gets crazy. The 531 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:59,280 Speaker 1: US went above and beyond all legal thresholds and attempts 532 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 1: to survey and or apprehend deserters with minimum publicity. Absolutely 533 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: the one of the top priorities of of let's say 534 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 1: the goals here were to avoid propaganda of successful desertion. 535 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 1: So if we don't want anyone to know that people 536 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,879 Speaker 1: have deserted and they got away with it, like, let's 537 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 1: keep that to a minimum at least. And it was 538 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 1: also a thing where it's probably not a good idea 539 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,440 Speaker 1: to actually go out and assassinate deserters, Like that's probably 540 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: a bad idea because this is you know, you turn 541 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 1: them into a martyr of sorts. And again I'm speaking 542 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,799 Speaker 1: from the side of the the intelligence system within the 543 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 1: United States, like this is what you're imagining, Um, that 544 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 1: would just it would totally fuel the fire for anti 545 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,440 Speaker 1: war protests and the activists that are already inside the 546 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,799 Speaker 1: United States fullmenting these feelings of anti war UM. And 547 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:59,280 Speaker 1: this led to something that we researched this week called 548 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 1: Operation Chaos. Yes, yes, it's through the intelligence agencies were 549 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 1: in quite a pickle, a rock and a hard place 550 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 1: type deliver. You don't want deserters to flout the law right, 551 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: and you don't want them to be successful in their desertion, 552 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 1: and you certainly don't want other people to know that 553 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 1: they can do any of that. But you also don't 554 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 1: want to be known as a government that actively goes 555 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:34,359 Speaker 1: out and kills its own did Neither of these are 556 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 1: particularly good looks. So Operation Chaos was formed a special 557 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:45,919 Speaker 1: Operations Group within the CIA, and it was secret for 558 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 1: a while for a long time after it was closed 559 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,839 Speaker 1: down because it it only functioned for a number of years, right, Yeah, 560 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,920 Speaker 1: it was established in August of ninety seven and it 561 00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:01,440 Speaker 1: was then active for six full years. And the stated 562 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 1: purpose here was to collect, coordinate, evaluate, and report on 563 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:11,720 Speaker 1: foreign contacts with American dissidents. And for it, they collected 564 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:16,279 Speaker 1: information on dissident Americans and they did that via the 565 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:18,960 Speaker 1: FBI domestically. So if they want to get information on 566 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,520 Speaker 1: dissidents who were within the United States, they use the 567 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,480 Speaker 1: FBI because that's their purpose. To who's on the mailing 568 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: list for this communist newsletter? Yeah, yeah, exactly, And then uh, 569 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,959 Speaker 1: I guess thankfully for these for this intelligence community. There 570 00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,880 Speaker 1: are so many active military stations overseas in other countries 571 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,480 Speaker 1: that they are just using these stations to collect information 572 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:45,800 Speaker 1: on let's say, the local dissidents, the local American dissidents, 573 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,319 Speaker 1: the local would be expats. Right, So, how how many 574 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,719 Speaker 1: people were involved with this on the espionage side, Well, 575 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,000 Speaker 1: you heard us say fifty two people at the top. 576 00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,640 Speaker 1: There were officially fifty two staff members working on Operation 577 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:03,799 Speaker 1: Chaos officially. Well, yeah, because you had, there were there 578 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 1: were operatives. I'm gonna go out on a limb and 579 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 1: say they were probably operatives who were not known in 580 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: any official capacity or maybe even recorded anywhere, just a 581 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: friend of a friend perhaps just I mean, in in 582 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,720 Speaker 1: any undercover operation, there's going to be a few of those. 583 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 1: If you're just actors assets, yeah, you know what, I think, 584 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,360 Speaker 1: you're absolutely right, or a few people who may not 585 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,359 Speaker 1: know that they are assets are helping the operation. Right, 586 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:37,800 Speaker 1: they just run a local newspaper there, they're a photographer 587 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 1: who happens to have a mysterious but loaded benefactor would 588 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,680 Speaker 1: like to buy some photos. Jeez, that's how it happens. 589 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:51,760 Speaker 1: So they they successfully did this right for years, they 590 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 1: created files on thousands of US citizens, officially American citizens, 591 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,479 Speaker 1: and then within these there are the names of over 592 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:05,319 Speaker 1: three hundred thousand people in organizations that were associated with 593 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:11,320 Speaker 1: those people. Just to be clear, this is an active conspiracy. Yeah, 594 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:15,160 Speaker 1: the government is the conspirator in this case. But this 595 00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,680 Speaker 1: is illegal. They're not supposed to be doing it, and 596 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,160 Speaker 1: they sure did. I mean, it's not as bad as 597 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:23,239 Speaker 1: the n s A from a couple of years back 598 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,799 Speaker 1: and currently, but you know, it's not great, all right, 599 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:32,520 Speaker 1: I mean it feels weird to split these hairs. Yes, 600 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:36,359 Speaker 1: but the argument used to justify these actions was very, 601 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,319 Speaker 1: very similar to the argument used today to justify the 602 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:44,440 Speaker 1: essays warrantless access to anything you do online in theory, 603 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:48,840 Speaker 1: anyone you associate with and anyone they associate with, and 604 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:52,320 Speaker 1: on and on and on. Kevin Bacon pops up sooner 605 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,840 Speaker 1: than you think in this game and echelon five eyes forever. Amen, 606 00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:00,600 Speaker 1: Oh boy, do you think we have records? Come on, 607 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:02,880 Speaker 1: remember we used to joke about it intern at the 608 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,239 Speaker 1: n s A. If someone was listening to us by 609 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:08,359 Speaker 1: this point, we have like an associate producer, or there's 610 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 1: there's somebody that guy's uh, that poor guy or girl, 611 00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,239 Speaker 1: that poor kid is just so bored, right, maybe it's 612 00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 1: a junior officer. Do you think we got? Oh man, 613 00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:22,799 Speaker 1: moving on up? All right, you know what, I'll take it. 614 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,759 Speaker 1: And hey, if you're listening, I don't know if you 615 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 1: can write in, but I feel free to do so. 616 00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,000 Speaker 1: We would love, we would love to hear from you. 617 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:38,560 Speaker 1: And also, if you know my internet history, friendly stranger, 618 00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:41,959 Speaker 1: you'll see that I'm really into cauliflower recipes, So send 619 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:46,520 Speaker 1: a few my way, cauliflower is amazing. Okay, we're talking 620 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:48,799 Speaker 1: about the food, right, Yeah, the food, not eganism, not 621 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:53,080 Speaker 1: a weird thing. I actually love cooking with cauliflower. No. 622 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:55,200 Speaker 1: Nol does as well. I believe very good. I'm a 623 00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:58,480 Speaker 1: broccoli guy, but you know, you know, I'm trying to 624 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:02,960 Speaker 1: get into more vegetables. Man, Rockley is my first love. Dude. 625 00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:07,799 Speaker 1: Food wise, this took a third. We're just trying to 626 00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,600 Speaker 1: prove that we are innocuous to the n s A. 627 00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:15,759 Speaker 1: And we have an opportunity to attempt to that because 628 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:19,000 Speaker 1: we are aware that these programs exist. The people being 629 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:23,879 Speaker 1: surveiled had very strong suspicions and in many cases very 630 00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:28,480 Speaker 1: strong circumstantial evidence, but for the most part, they had 631 00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 1: no proof of what was happening. They had no opportunity 632 00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:33,920 Speaker 1: to be like, hey, yeah, you know, and I'm not 633 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,239 Speaker 1: great on the war, but have you heard about cauliflower. 634 00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:42,320 Speaker 1: They couldn't do any of that endearing stuff, and most people, 635 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:45,839 Speaker 1: even in the modern day, didn't have any idea what 636 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,240 Speaker 1: was happening. We learned about this through a book called 637 00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:53,360 Speaker 1: Operation Chaos. The Vietnam deserters who fought the CIA brainwashers 638 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,880 Speaker 1: and themselves that's a title. Yeah, it's it's pretty specific. 639 00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:02,240 Speaker 1: In this book, the author Matthews Sweet outlines the strange 640 00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:06,880 Speaker 1: and often contradictory accounts from Vietnam deserters who joined the 641 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:09,799 Speaker 1: a d C that we mentioned there in Sweden, and 642 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:13,400 Speaker 1: he also asked them about their opinions regarding intelligence agencies 643 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:18,400 Speaker 1: from the US, Russia, and Sweden, all of whom infiltrated 644 00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:21,759 Speaker 1: their group at some point in some shape fashion re 645 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:27,520 Speaker 1: form and then later infiltrated the subsequent extremist offshoots of 646 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:33,120 Speaker 1: the A d C. Because Operation Chaos, as as you 647 00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:40,080 Speaker 1: outlined earlier, matt is an umbrella term domestic monitoring, foreign monitoring, 648 00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:44,920 Speaker 1: all sort of for the larger aim. The aspects of 649 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:52,880 Speaker 1: Operation Chaos that Matthew Sweet focuses on our exclusively the 650 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:58,080 Speaker 1: stories of the deserters living abroad, and he tracks them 651 00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:01,000 Speaker 1: down those who are still alive, and he asked them 652 00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:05,600 Speaker 1: to tell their stories. He also asked members of foreign 653 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,440 Speaker 1: intelligence agencies to tell their stories if they can right 654 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:13,200 Speaker 1: and the U s Intelligence Agency, the community in the 655 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:17,840 Speaker 1: US had a sustained effort to not only infiltrate these 656 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:22,719 Speaker 1: deserter organizations, but to repatriate deserters. They're the ones who 657 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:27,080 Speaker 1: would say, hey, no harm, no foul, just to come back, 658 00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:29,000 Speaker 1: who can probably get you out of jail in a 659 00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:33,040 Speaker 1: year dishonorable discharge. But you can go on with your life. 660 00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:36,000 Speaker 1: All you have to do is say that you made 661 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:40,440 Speaker 1: a mistake publicly, that you regret it. Still Team America 662 00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:45,480 Speaker 1: and we're all good. Have you seen the show, Barry? Yes? Yeah, yeah, yeah? 663 00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:47,799 Speaker 1: Are you a fan? Yeah? You did something just now 664 00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:50,759 Speaker 1: that totally reminded me of I forget his name. He's 665 00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,720 Speaker 1: the super nice guy who's one of the bad guys. 666 00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:58,040 Speaker 1: He's bald. Hey, Barry, what's going on? Just let you know? 667 00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:02,880 Speaker 1: You know they're gonna kill you, so anyway, be careful. 668 00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:05,640 Speaker 1: I love that guy. That's one of my favorite characters 669 00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:10,200 Speaker 1: in this shows. What you call alopecia. He's hairless. Yeah, 670 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:15,400 Speaker 1: that that guy is for me a scene steeler because 671 00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:17,799 Speaker 1: everyone he meets. And this is not spoiling the show 672 00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:21,479 Speaker 1: for you. This guy is a a gangster who does 673 00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:27,920 Speaker 1: horrific things. Did he my country? He ever did anything horrific? 674 00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:29,920 Speaker 1: I couldn't even tell you. And this is we don't 675 00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:31,799 Speaker 1: even have to talk about this man. I just all 676 00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,240 Speaker 1: I could think about was that for a split second 677 00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:38,319 Speaker 1: and then it just reverberated. Yeah, because well, the most 678 00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,120 Speaker 1: endearing thing about that dude is everyone he meets is 679 00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,560 Speaker 1: described as a super nice guy. He's a super nice guy, 680 00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:50,560 Speaker 1: especially Berry though, Barry, do you want some juice? Yeah, 681 00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:52,120 Speaker 1: I've got to go back and rewatch it. If you 682 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,960 Speaker 1: haven't watched the do do check it out because it's 683 00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:59,040 Speaker 1: it's a fantastic show and it's not Bill Hayters in it, 684 00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:04,640 Speaker 1: but it's it's not really a comedy. Is fantastic? Yeah? Yeah, 685 00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:08,000 Speaker 1: the comedy parts are pretty much that guy that we 686 00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:11,719 Speaker 1: just mentioned. And did you know that other gangster is 687 00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:17,600 Speaker 1: the bad guy from Tree Detectives. Yeah, man, now I'm impressed. 688 00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:22,160 Speaker 1: Oh yes, anyway, yeah yeah, yeah. So graphic widespread abuse 689 00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:26,160 Speaker 1: is a power by the intelligence agencies, not just the US, 690 00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:30,080 Speaker 1: also Russian Sweden. So they wanted to the US wanted 691 00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:37,879 Speaker 1: to repatriot these deserters, suppress or nullify their anti war messages. Right, 692 00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:47,040 Speaker 1: And in this book, Matthew Sweet explores the explores the 693 00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:51,880 Speaker 1: facts through statistics, but then primarily through anecdotes and accounts 694 00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:57,880 Speaker 1: of the deserters and the other players on the field. 695 00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:03,000 Speaker 1: So well, who, what's our Who's who? If we were 696 00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:04,640 Speaker 1: to do Who's who? What are some of the main 697 00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:08,440 Speaker 1: players in this well one is well. One of the 698 00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:12,719 Speaker 1: deserters is Chuck on en O N A N and 699 00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:16,040 Speaker 1: he he joined the the U. S. Marines when he 700 00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:18,960 Speaker 1: was a bit younger than He ended up deserting to 701 00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:24,240 Speaker 1: Sweden via Iceland with this a d C. And um 702 00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:26,200 Speaker 1: the other information that was in the book. There's a 703 00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:28,240 Speaker 1: little section at the front of this book that gives 704 00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:30,400 Speaker 1: you kind of a rundown of the characters, and it 705 00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:34,600 Speaker 1: said he's a now a big fan of medical marijuana. Right. Yeah. 706 00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:41,239 Speaker 1: If you read sweets initial encounters with the guy when 707 00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:46,200 Speaker 1: he gets to his house, uh, he's The author spends 708 00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:49,319 Speaker 1: some time describing how this dude thinks marijuana is going 709 00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:52,160 Speaker 1: to save the world, and how he's going to start 710 00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:57,440 Speaker 1: this growing operation, and how he's extremely uncomfortable because I 711 00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:00,799 Speaker 1: think at some point while Matthew Sweets is talking to 712 00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:05,040 Speaker 1: this guy, a drug deal occurs. It's like, I think 713 00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:11,200 Speaker 1: someone comes to buy marijuana, and this is this is 714 00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:14,120 Speaker 1: one guy. There's there are other ones. One of the 715 00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:18,040 Speaker 1: big players, and one of the most controversial, is a 716 00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:24,080 Speaker 1: fellow named Michael Vale. Yes, this is I guess the 717 00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:28,520 Speaker 1: leader of the the a d C, the American Deserters Committee, 718 00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:32,240 Speaker 1: and he was considered by some to be the resputant 719 00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:35,799 Speaker 1: of the a d C. And this guy was suspected 720 00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:41,719 Speaker 1: of being a CIA infiltrator. He used interrogation and breakdown 721 00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:46,760 Speaker 1: techniques on people, so he was known for breaking down 722 00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:51,280 Speaker 1: would be members of the a d C or people 723 00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:53,680 Speaker 1: trying to join the a d C. These are people 724 00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:57,319 Speaker 1: who have already deserted on the basis of their politics 725 00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:01,600 Speaker 1: or their beliefs, reducing them to tears uh winnowing way 726 00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:04,200 Speaker 1: their personalities so he could remake them a new and 727 00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:06,920 Speaker 1: a lot of people followed him. He had disciples, you know, 728 00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:11,439 Speaker 1: a lot of people hated the guy. And using those 729 00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:16,279 Speaker 1: sorts of techniques, of course, lends some credence to the 730 00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:19,400 Speaker 1: idea that someone is a CIA infiltrator works for an 731 00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:23,480 Speaker 1: intelligence agency. But what becomes apparent very quickly here is 732 00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:27,759 Speaker 1: that these people were all accusing each other. No one 733 00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:32,640 Speaker 1: was dedicated enough to the cause, no one was ideological enough. 734 00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:37,400 Speaker 1: Everyone could be a mole. The paranoia was definitely running 735 00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:41,640 Speaker 1: high because there was another gentleman named Bob Burlingham, he 736 00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:45,359 Speaker 1: went by Arlo Jacobs. For part of that time, he 737 00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:48,200 Speaker 1: was a student radical, a weatherman if you will, part 738 00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:50,839 Speaker 1: of the Weather Underground, and he was suspected of being 739 00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:54,719 Speaker 1: a CIA infiltrator as well by other members of the group. 740 00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:59,719 Speaker 1: It's the hip new thing to do, yeah, um. And 741 00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:02,560 Speaker 1: then we get into the actual spies, the people who 742 00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:06,960 Speaker 1: are confirmed intelligence officers like Richard Ober who was pretty 743 00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:09,799 Speaker 1: much the head of Operation Chaos, or at least in 744 00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:12,560 Speaker 1: some ways the functional head of it, right, And he 745 00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:16,120 Speaker 1: was considered by a lot of others to be paranoid 746 00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:20,040 Speaker 1: and secretive in his own workings, which again, you know, 747 00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:22,480 Speaker 1: if you're running an operation like that that's full of 748 00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:26,799 Speaker 1: secrecy and lies, you've got to be pretty paranoid, right, right. 749 00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:29,080 Speaker 1: And he expected the same out of the people who 750 00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:33,719 Speaker 1: worked with and for him, you know. And for his part, 751 00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:36,799 Speaker 1: he will argue, and he does argue in the book. 752 00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:43,360 Speaker 1: I believe that the mission was entirely meant to surveil 753 00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:48,720 Speaker 1: and collect information, not to do any sort of skullduggery 754 00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,160 Speaker 1: or wet work or kidnapping or assassination or any of 755 00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:55,120 Speaker 1: that black bag hoopla. I mean, the state of goals 756 00:51:55,160 --> 00:52:00,560 Speaker 1: are just that just vacuum up the information, right, who's 757 00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:06,879 Speaker 1: sending who notes, who's calling who? That's the official story. Yeah, 758 00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:10,840 Speaker 1: there's a there's another member of the intelligence community that 759 00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:13,000 Speaker 1: pops up in the book. Oh yeah, there's a gentleman 760 00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:16,279 Speaker 1: named Frank Rofalco, and he was he was working on 761 00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:20,239 Speaker 1: the Black Panther detail of Operation Chaos because they were 762 00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:23,440 Speaker 1: looking at what they considered to be extremist groups, and 763 00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:27,200 Speaker 1: they considered sections of the Black Panthers to be just that. 764 00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:31,120 Speaker 1: Um And this guy was the only officer so far, 765 00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,720 Speaker 1: at least according to Matthew Sweet that has spoken publicly 766 00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:41,239 Speaker 1: about Operation Chaos so far, and the stories continue. It's 767 00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:45,719 Speaker 1: it's just strange to learn that not only to this 768 00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:50,239 Speaker 1: operation go on successfully on a global scale for what 769 00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:53,560 Speaker 1: six years, more than half a decade, but there were 770 00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:57,520 Speaker 1: no repercussions for the US, right, A lot of the 771 00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:02,080 Speaker 1: deserters found their way back to the States or found 772 00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:06,439 Speaker 1: their way to a friendly country, and many of their 773 00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:10,919 Speaker 1: I mean, regardless of whether someone from the outside looking 774 00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:14,160 Speaker 1: in we call their lives successful or unsuccessful, the truth 775 00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:19,960 Speaker 1: is that their lives were tremendously affected by this program 776 00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:25,640 Speaker 1: right in ways that we probably still don't fully understand, 777 00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:29,640 Speaker 1: and there's still questions there. We don't know for sure 778 00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:32,160 Speaker 1: who was or wasn't a mole, who did or did 779 00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:37,160 Speaker 1: not provide information. Many of these people had torturous personal lives, 780 00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:42,680 Speaker 1: drug addiction, right, heavy debt, childhood's full of abuse, and 781 00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:47,080 Speaker 1: it's very difficult to speculate what motivated them and how 782 00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:51,680 Speaker 1: deep they got. We know something happened because the information 783 00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:56,960 Speaker 1: got out there, but we have to ask ourselves what 784 00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:00,000 Speaker 1: did this mean in the long run. Did it change 785 00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:04,239 Speaker 1: to the course of the Vietnam War? Probably not, probably not. 786 00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:07,880 Speaker 1: It's you know, in comparison to two point seven million soldiers, 787 00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:11,520 Speaker 1: it's not that many people. Were there any large movements 788 00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:15,200 Speaker 1: from groups that were helping out dissidents, I mean, it 789 00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:18,160 Speaker 1: doesn't seem to there's no at least there are not. 790 00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:21,600 Speaker 1: There aren't many. No. I can't think of a single 791 00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:25,520 Speaker 1: one where the United States took any kind of action 792 00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:28,520 Speaker 1: against a civilian group in another country because they were 793 00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:32,560 Speaker 1: aiding dissidents, at least not overtly. No. I mean, yeah, 794 00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:36,600 Speaker 1: that we would know about right, right, And it's common 795 00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:40,080 Speaker 1: to work through proxy groups and so on. But we 796 00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:45,000 Speaker 1: have to think beyond the events of Vietnam that still 797 00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:48,360 Speaker 1: have many unexplained things. Agent Orange is an example that 798 00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:51,640 Speaker 1: recurred during the Iraq War, at least allegations of exposure 799 00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:55,640 Speaker 1: to it. Is it possible that programs like this exist 800 00:54:56,000 --> 00:55:00,680 Speaker 1: now in the current wars the US is embroiled in 801 00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:03,600 Speaker 1: or I guess, since we don't call them wars anymore, 802 00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:09,720 Speaker 1: the current conflicts? Right, who is a the situation? Yeah? 803 00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:14,080 Speaker 1: Who is monitoring? Uh? These interactions? Why are people deserting 804 00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:20,120 Speaker 1: in the numbers that occurred during the Vietnam War? Probably not? 805 00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:24,319 Speaker 1: Probably not because there's not a draft. Yeah, but that 806 00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:27,279 Speaker 1: could change. Oh, that could absolutely change. It just takes 807 00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:31,759 Speaker 1: an act of Congress. Right, so we we wonder. We 808 00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:34,400 Speaker 1: have to wonder if there's more stuff they don't want 809 00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:37,000 Speaker 1: you to know, if there's an Operation Chaos two point 810 00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:40,040 Speaker 1: oh out there somewhere, and if so, what's it called. Currently, 811 00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:44,080 Speaker 1: the US military is comprised of volunteers, meaning that no 812 00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:48,200 Speaker 1: one is conscripted or drafted, and there are no laws 813 00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:51,920 Speaker 1: that compel a U. S citizen to serve mandatory time 814 00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:55,359 Speaker 1: in the armed forces. And that's that's not the same 815 00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:58,759 Speaker 1: in other countries. South Korea and Israel, for example, have 816 00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:01,600 Speaker 1: laws requiring sit aison's to serve in the military for 817 00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:05,160 Speaker 1: X amount of time. Absolutely, the one thing I would say. 818 00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:08,320 Speaker 1: In the US, it is still compulsory for all male 819 00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:12,320 Speaker 1: citizens to submit their information to the Selective Service system 820 00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:15,680 Speaker 1: within thirty days of their eighteenth birthday. And that's just 821 00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:18,760 Speaker 1: to make sure the Selective Service system remains in case 822 00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:22,239 Speaker 1: a draft is necessary. In Congress like puts the hammer 823 00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:25,399 Speaker 1: down and makes it happen, because, as Malcolm Gladwell so 824 00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:30,000 Speaker 1: eloquently explains in the Tipping Point, nothing seems like it 825 00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:33,680 Speaker 1: will ever happen until suddenly it does. Yeah, great point, Malcolm, 826 00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:38,399 Speaker 1: great point, Great point. Mr g Uh. Today we end 827 00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:44,000 Speaker 1: our episode with this, the this important point. Yes, there 828 00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:46,520 Speaker 1: is no draft going on now. There is no Operation 829 00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:50,680 Speaker 1: Chaos that we are aware of, even though the technological 830 00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:54,239 Speaker 1: abilities to do so are far and beyond what they 831 00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:57,760 Speaker 1: ever were before. In Vietnam. You know, we're all carrying 832 00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:02,240 Speaker 1: the average person is carrying a tiny spy in their pockets. 833 00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:06,359 Speaker 1: Two cameras at least, right, and how tough is it 834 00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:09,040 Speaker 1: to get in there? Who watches the watchman? All that jazz, 835 00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:11,280 Speaker 1: all that slow jazz, And what about on your wrist 836 00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:14,600 Speaker 1: if you got a smart watcher, who knows what? What 837 00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:17,680 Speaker 1: if you got a Google Home or an Amazon Echo 838 00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:22,080 Speaker 1: in your house, or a couple of security cameras. Don't please, 839 00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:24,720 Speaker 1: it's too late. Your TV have a camera on it? 840 00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:28,720 Speaker 1: Does your PlayStation have a microphone? You know what? Maybe 841 00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:31,320 Speaker 1: if they did, I would take better care of myself. 842 00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:33,960 Speaker 1: I'd eat more healthy food, you know I would. Uh, 843 00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:38,640 Speaker 1: that's where you'd start. That's where it'd started, the base level. 844 00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:42,640 Speaker 1: Check it out, I mean and kale, thank you please state. 845 00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:46,720 Speaker 1: But one other important thing to hit on here is 846 00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:51,280 Speaker 1: that in many cases, these deserters live on today somewhere right, 847 00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:55,760 Speaker 1: and they're real people. Are they perfect? No? Who is? 848 00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:59,000 Speaker 1: Some folks would consider them straight out traders. Other folks 849 00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:04,040 Speaker 1: would consider them the equivalent of freedom fighters. And there 850 00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:06,600 Speaker 1: are people who will make the argument that if they 851 00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:10,440 Speaker 1: broke the rules, the rules no longer apply to them. 852 00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:14,640 Speaker 1: But that goes into what sort of importance we place 853 00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:19,640 Speaker 1: on the rule of law, And it goes into, perhaps 854 00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:25,600 Speaker 1: even more importantly, what importance we place on the lawmakers 855 00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:29,600 Speaker 1: obeying the laws they create. Wow, So what do you 856 00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:33,080 Speaker 1: think about Operation Chaos? Do you have you read the book? 857 00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:35,760 Speaker 1: Do you know anything about it? Have you ever encountered 858 00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:41,479 Speaker 1: anyone who was a dissonant an American or otherwise. We'd 859 00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:43,320 Speaker 1: love to hear your stories. We'd love for you to 860 00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:45,640 Speaker 1: contact us and just talk to us about it. You 861 00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:47,600 Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter. You can find us on 862 00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:51,800 Speaker 1: Facebook where a conspiracy stuff on Instagram or conspiracy stuff Show. 863 00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:54,320 Speaker 1: You can find our website Stuff they Don't Want You 864 00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:57,160 Speaker 1: to Know dot com. You can also call us at 865 00:58:57,240 --> 00:59:01,560 Speaker 1: one eight three three st d w y t K 866 00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:04,160 Speaker 1: do it call us you might get on the error 867 00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:07,320 Speaker 1: after we get enough messages. We need more messages, honestly, 868 00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:11,480 Speaker 1: so like, stop what you're doing. Call us? Uh, I 869 00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:13,040 Speaker 1: don't know. If we sing we can sing a song 870 00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:16,400 Speaker 1: together or something, it will go to voicemail. Get weird 871 00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:19,240 Speaker 1: with it, yeah, get weird. We we We would love 872 00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:21,200 Speaker 1: you too. Um. If you don't want to do any 873 00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:24,880 Speaker 1: of that stuff, please send us an email. We are 874 00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:46,760 Speaker 1: conspiracy at how Stuff Works dot com