1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, A production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:18,119 Speaker 1: Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. We talked about penicillin this week. 4 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: Sure did. This is one of those topics that I 5 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 1: was surprised to realize nobody had done on the show before, 6 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: because we have lots of topics in the past archive 7 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: that are already done we don't really think about. And 8 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: it was also one that I had kind of in 9 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 1: my head actively resisted doing because I was like, everybody 10 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 1: knows this story about the mold and the Petri dish. Uh. 11 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: Obviously a whole lot more than just the mold and 12 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:50,959 Speaker 1: the Petri dish, which was the whole focus of the episode. 13 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: One reason that I was familiar with that story is 14 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: that when I was a child, I really loved to 15 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:02,279 Speaker 1: do the school science fair. You did, Yeah, I loved it. 16 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: I loved it a lot. When I was in I 17 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: think fifth grade, my science fair was on mold, or 18 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: my project was on mold. I grew mold on different foods. 19 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: I remember there was bread, and there was I think lemons, 20 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: and I don't remember what else, and I had them 21 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: in different conditions. So I had ones that were left 22 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,119 Speaker 1: on the counter and ones that were in uh like 23 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:26,960 Speaker 1: a zip black bag on the counter, and I think 24 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: once that were in the fridge. Um. And because I 25 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: was a big nerd, I also wrote a number of 26 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: papers on other topics that were relevant to my mold project, 27 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: and one of them was about penicillin. And I put 28 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 1: them in a little folder, and the little folder was 29 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: like attached to my little science fair triptick ion science 30 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: Fair at my school. I did not when the regional 31 00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: science fair that I then went to with my project. Um, 32 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: I was so sloppy about science fair I did. The 33 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: best one I ever did was about different kinds of 34 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: fabrics and how they catch fire. But that's probably an 35 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: indicator of who I was as a kid. I think 36 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: that's a great idea for a project, though with it 37 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: would be if I didn't wait until the very last minute. 38 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: I kind of like threw it together. I could throw 39 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: together some visuals, but there was never any real science 40 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: to back it up. It was always like although that 41 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: one was fun because I had Bert fabric on it, 42 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: but yeah, I just never I never wanted to play 43 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: the science fair game. I was like I was very 44 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: into it. There was other stuff I was not at 45 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:44,519 Speaker 1: all into here. I think in middle school and r 46 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 1: PE class. One year we had to write a report 47 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: on I think ten sports, and the next year we 48 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,679 Speaker 1: had to write of one page I think it was 49 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 1: one page per sport. We had to do it on 50 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:05,079 Speaker 1: twenty sports. And I put that off until the night before, 51 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 1: at which point a twenty page report basically at that 52 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: point to do in a night not possible. Uh. Did 53 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: you plagiarize yourself? Oh? Well there was. Uh there was 54 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: some just like scrawling things that were barely paraphrased from 55 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: the encyclopedia. Um, but it was not done. Uh. This 56 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: is one of the only times in my life, because 57 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: I was a very rule following child, it was one 58 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: of the only times in my life that I tried 59 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: to fake being sick so that I would not have 60 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: to go to school. I tried to. I did the 61 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: thing where I tried to hold the thermometer to the 62 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: light bulb to look like I had a fever. Um. 63 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: My mom knew that I was not saying uh, So yeah, 64 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: I thought it was a pointless waste of my time. 65 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: That was a big problem with me in school. If 66 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: I thought that something was a pointless waste of my time, 67 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: I just would not do it. But I thought science 68 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: fair projects were a great use of my time, including 69 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: writing totally additional supplementary reports on mold. I was like, 70 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go make a dress. I know. Um, here's 71 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: the thing that got me wondering that maybe you came 72 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: across in your research or maybe not so in the 73 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: reclamation of penicillin coming from urine. Um. I'm trying to 74 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 1: think of the best way to word this question, not 75 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: because it's sensitive, but just because I don't I want 76 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 1: to make sure I used to write approach here. Does 77 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: that mean that urine that was not collected could have 78 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: been just introducing all kinds of penicillin into the general yes, um, 79 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: you know, waste system, and possibly also contributing to the 80 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: problem we now have um of antibiotic resistant things as 81 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 1: I understand it, Yes, not just not just PENNI like, 82 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:10,039 Speaker 1: there are a lot of drugs that come out in 83 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: the urine, and there's just a whole discussion of like 84 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: what is the environmental effect of all of that, which 85 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 1: is not a subject I am versed on at all, 86 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: but I know it's a concern that exists. Another thing 87 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: about the whole resistance question is those first those very 88 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: first patients, uh, most of whom were successfully treated. We're 89 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 1: getting a much smaller dose than is standard now. And 90 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: part of the reason for that is like to make 91 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: sure it really is a lethal dose to the bacteria 92 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: and not something that's just gonna cause resistance. But the 93 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: fact that treating one patient could use up all of 94 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: the penicilla that blew my mind a little bit. Yes, 95 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: I also was unsurprised, but still had my for real 96 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 1: that once again egos came part of this whole party. Yeah, 97 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: I get it. I was more interested in the ethics 98 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 1: part of it. Those are interesting discussions to have about. Yeah, 99 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: I can understand the logic for kind of all of 100 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 1: those positions. We we didn't get into it very much 101 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 1: in the episode, but I read several papers that were 102 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: about what Germany figured out during the war, what they 103 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: didn't figure out. There was one paper that was all 104 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:32,919 Speaker 1: about Hitler being treated with penicillin that had been seized 105 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: from somebody that had gotten it from fleming Um, so 106 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: like wasn't something that had been sent directly to a 107 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: German researcher. It was like some some had been seized 108 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: from someone in France or somewhere that Germany occupied that 109 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: then was used to treat Hitler, and there was there 110 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: was just a lot of focus in research puzzling out 111 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: like what Germany did or did not know, which at 112 00:06:57,680 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: this I was like, why is this something that we 113 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 1: really need to know this much about it? The spot Um, yeah, 114 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: it does seem like there were experiments that that happened, 115 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: but no, like large scale German production facility and uh, 116 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: there was one thing that I had in that line 117 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: and I took out because I got confused about it 118 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: when I was reading back over my stuff and then 119 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 1: I could not find the source of it in my 120 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: original research. That was I think in the Netherlands, like 121 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 1: the Netherlands had done their own penicillin research and had 122 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: a whole, a whole facility set up, and uh, there 123 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: was a German guard that was stationed there and so 124 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: they just kept that guy drunk on gin. He would 125 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: not be too attentive to what they were doing, you know, 126 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: like you do. Yeah, So anyway, that did not wind 127 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 1: up back in the thing. Um. I am very appreciative 128 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: that Fleming noticed something in that Petre dish that did 129 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: lead to an important thing, but man, the whole I 130 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: feel like every children's book about it is just basically 131 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: like and then we had penicillin, just disregarding the part 132 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: that he stopped working with it and it was not 133 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: made into a usable drug to treat people until ten 134 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 1: years later by totally different researchers, without whose work we 135 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: also would not have penicillin. The last time I took penicillin, 136 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: I was surprised that was what they prescribed to me, 137 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 1: because I was like, we're still using penicillin. I don't 138 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: even remember the last time I had penicillin. Um. I 139 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: had a tooth that was going to need a root canal, 140 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 1: but for reasons, we could not do the root canal anyway, 141 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 1: uh or right? We could not do the root canal 142 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: like right that minute. It had to be postpraged a bit. 143 00:08:56,320 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 1: But it also was not like an urgent situation in 144 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 1: that moment. And so the endodontist had persus just like, Okay, 145 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: I'm gonna prescribe you with these antibiotics while you're away. 146 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: If you start developing these symptoms in your tooth, start 147 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: taking it. And I was like, okay, what are you 148 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: gonna prescribe to me because I just there's want to 149 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 1: have an allergy too, And she's like penicillin, and I 150 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:21,079 Speaker 1: was like, people still have that? What? Yeah? I literally cannot. 151 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,319 Speaker 1: I could not tell you the last time I had penicillin. 152 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: Feel think it's been decades. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. 153 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:35,439 Speaker 1: So anyway, I'm glad antibiotics were developed. I hope, I 154 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: hope we find some workable alternatives as antibiotic resistance becomes 155 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: an increasingly bigger problem. Oh. That which reminds me of 156 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: another thing that I found in research that didn't go 157 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: into the episode was there has been some discussion of 158 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: whether the team would have totally abandoned this whole avenue 159 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: of research if they have tested penicillin on guinea pigs, 160 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: because it is found to be toxic in guinea pigs, 161 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: But later research suggested that it was not actually toxic 162 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: in guinea pigs. It was just that it wiped out 163 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: the like beneficial intestinal flora of the guinea pigs, and 164 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: as a consequence, all the guinea pigs got sedith. Oh no, yeah, 165 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: there's a very sad story, and also made me realize 166 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: that CEDIF has been around a lot longer than I realized, 167 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: because I feel like that's a thing that I've only 168 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: heard about in the last decade or so forever. Yeah, 169 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: So anyway, that's my last random aside of things that 170 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: I read in research that did not make it into 171 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: just to make everyone squirmls a little bit. Yeah, we 172 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: talked about out the field of cloth of gold this week. 173 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 1: We I have so many feelings, and I know you 174 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: do too. Uh huh do you want to start? Sure? 175 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: So for literal years I had written on my episode 176 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: short list field of cloth of gold. Actually, what I 177 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: had to think I had written was field of the 178 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: cloth of gold, because a lot of people put at 179 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,719 Speaker 1: the right there, which makes it a little weird when 180 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 1: you know what cloth of gold actually is, right. Uh, 181 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 1: But like for a very long time, it was there 182 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 1: on my list to do an episode on field of 183 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: cloth of gold in the beginning of June. And then see, 184 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:50,079 Speaker 1: I never asked you if you were doing this because 185 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: I thought Tracy does not want to talk about two 186 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: men being being occurs Where we get to when the 187 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: time to research that episode rolled around, we were in 188 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 1: what I feel like is like the acute phase of 189 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: the pandemic. The pandemic is still going on, but like 190 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: we were still in the part where there were no 191 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 1: vaccines and we didn't really know a lot of stuff yet, 192 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 1: and things were closed and there was just perpetual uncertainty, 193 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: and all of these people in my life were like 194 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 1: just having all kinds of things happened to them that 195 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: were bad, and I could not be there for any 196 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 1: of them because of the pandemic that was going on. 197 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 1: And George Floyd was murdered and the protests followed that, 198 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: and there was just so much strife and and chaos 199 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: and uncertainty, and I started looking at the field of 200 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 1: cloth of Gold and went, I can't and deleted it 201 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 1: off of the short list. Fabric That's my story. I 202 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: love it. I love it. This I did. I will say, 203 00:12:57,800 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: while I was researching this, I just kept texting my 204 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: best friend and be like, oh and then expletives over 205 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 1: some of the just weird to me behavior praise Grito. 206 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: I was not born and royal because I would throw 207 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: my hands up at all of the weird rules and 208 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: behaviors and posturing involved. I mentioned in the podcast the 209 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: bickering over the field, and they eventually did agree that 210 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: they would have it more or less equidistant between the 211 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 1: two encampments, which put it in English territory. And then 212 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: to kind of make things a little more equitable, they 213 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: extended the actual field of play fifty feet towards the 214 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 1: French encampment, so it would be a little closer to it. 215 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: And I'm like, this is the kind of stuff that 216 00:13:52,640 --> 00:14:00,040 Speaker 1: would make me absolutely mad with fury. This ridiculous. To 217 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 1: get over yourselves. Um. There have been some very interesting 218 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 1: I did not go through them all because they get 219 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: in the weeds in a way. I was not ready 220 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:13,719 Speaker 1: to for this particular aspect of it. Some very interesting 221 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 1: economic studies and breakdowns of where all the money went, 222 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: and particularly related to the pay that workmen were receiving, 223 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: and how of course it really took estimated equivalent or 224 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: perhaps even more people to put this thing together than 225 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 1: actually attended it. Um. And of course they didn't. Yes, 226 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 1: the economies were bolstered to some degree, but it wasn't 227 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: like any of them were like I'm rich now because 228 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: I made some stuff for the kings. Um. It's there's 229 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: very interesting breakdowns. In the mid twentieth century, there was 230 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: a big, a big economic study done of of like 231 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: how all the money had gone various places and what 232 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: it did and did not benefit for the actual countries. Um. 233 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: The one thing that kind of is attached to that 234 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 1: that I think is very interesting and isn't something measurable 235 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: and it's not documented, was that it probably put French 236 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: and English workers in a position where they would have 237 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: been side by side working on projects together for probably 238 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: the first time in either of their lives. And to me, 239 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: that's such an interesting aspect that if we were if 240 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: this thing were happening today, that would be the human 241 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: interest story that appears on all networks, right of Like 242 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: this carpenter from London is now friends with this brick 243 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: lair from calais Um, which should be very interesting, but 244 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: we don't. We don't know a whole lot about how 245 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: that may have informed people's perceptions of the the long 246 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: term enemy at that point. But I really wish we 247 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: had some accounts of that. Yeah, that reminds me of 248 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: articles that I've read in more recent years about like 249 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: people who serve in the military or people who do 250 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: uh some kind of like like service program who wind 251 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: up meeting and become becoming really close to people who 252 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: are outside of their like where they grew up, or 253 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: their social and economic class, and how speculation about whether 254 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: nations that have some kind of mandatory service for people 255 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: when they sort of reach adulthood have more social cohesion 256 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: because of those uh, And so I just just sort 257 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: of makes me curious of like whether how that made 258 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: like everyday people living in England and France feel about 259 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 1: the other during that era. This is a little bit 260 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: of a jump, but this is what I love about 261 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: space exploration is because and it's why I get choked 262 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: up when, like I see stuff like um years ago, 263 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 1: you know, I got to go see the JADAST when 264 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 1: it was at Goddard Space Flight Center and do some 265 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: some projects there, and I would get choked up looking 266 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:09,880 Speaker 1: at it. And to me, it's because it's exactly that. 267 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:13,920 Speaker 1: It's the best of us. It is people from many countries, 268 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: often various walks of life, from various socioeconomic levels, who 269 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: have all dedicated their lives to furthering human exploration of space. 270 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: And I think that is magical. That's to me, that's 271 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: like why those things are just brain exploding in the 272 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:46,639 Speaker 1: best way. How much have you read about the painting, 273 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 1: the big famous painting which will show up on our 274 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 1: social of the field of cloth of gold really nothing. 275 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: I had seen the painting before and that I had 276 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: seen the dragon, and I did not know it was 277 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: supposed to be a kite, and I was just like, 278 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 1: why is there a dragon there? Yes, it's a kite. Um, 279 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 1: it's kite that the English made. I don't think we 280 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,679 Speaker 1: included that in the episode, but worth worth including for 281 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: consideration when you're deciding if you think it's a dragon 282 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: or salamander. Um. Here's an interesting thing about it. The 283 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: main image of Henry the Eighth, because he actually appears 284 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:23,400 Speaker 1: in a few places suggesting different aspects of this whole thing, 285 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 1: but the main one, where he is riding on his 286 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: horse into the processional for reasons we don't know, his 287 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:35,199 Speaker 1: head was removed and replaced. Well, that's weird after the 288 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: painting had been completed. Um. And we don't know if 289 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: that was like a thing where his likeness was changed 290 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 1: for some reason, or if it was perhaps like a 291 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: preservation such. We just we do not know. But I 292 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 1: think it's very very interesting. Yeah, Henry the Eighth is 293 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: such a trip in many ways, and I do sort 294 00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: of like we didn't talk about it a lot. We 295 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:00,639 Speaker 1: talked about how this was Henry when he was at 296 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: his most handsome, but uh, Francis or Francois the first 297 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: was similarly at his sort of like physical peak. He 298 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 1: was roughly the same height as Henry the eighth. He 299 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 1: was also considered very handsome and you know, athletic, And 300 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: obviously it was very athletic since he was apparently an 301 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: expert at wrestling, which was a very popular sport in 302 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: France at the time. Uh so it made sense that 303 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:28,919 Speaker 1: he would have known a lot about wrestling. But uh, 304 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 1: you know, the idea of these two incredibly like young, 305 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: very powerful men having this big party together is part 306 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: of why it's so compelling. Was so compelling then and 307 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: remained so compelling to people now. Just the you know, 308 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 1: two dudes peacock and around while they pretend that they're 309 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: going to be BFFs forever is a very very interesting premise. 310 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: I'm glad that we did this episode now, but I'm 311 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: also glad that, like I, uh, but I did my 312 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: I did not force myself to like Soldier through just 313 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,880 Speaker 1: because it was the five anniversary of the thing. That's 314 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: the only reason it had been on my short list 315 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: was because of that. Because even when I was reading 316 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 1: your outline and I was reading about all of that, 317 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: I was like, I am so glad I did not 318 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: force myself through this. I mean, I'm of the lucky 319 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,880 Speaker 1: mindset where I find most of their behavior hilarious rather 320 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 1: than angering. So it was kind of fun and funny, 321 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:35,719 Speaker 1: and I would be like texting my best friend and 322 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: go oh, Henry the eighth is apparently on the verge 323 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: of tears. It's very funny, this whole posting. I do 324 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 1: love the idea of outfits that spelled out a poem. Yeah, 325 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:52,640 Speaker 1: that's amazed. Francis getting my endless respect for that one. 326 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 1: So I'm just gonna think about them every time I 327 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: see someone being very fake in their behavior to try 328 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: to jockey for their own personal benefit, and the go, 329 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 1: this is your own personal field of cloth of gold. 330 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: I see you see alright? Uh. We hope that your 331 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: upcoming weekend is an absolute delight and that is not 332 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: filled with any irritating pomp or false posturing on anyone's part, 333 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 1: and that if you have things to do, they go 334 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: smoothly and they're not too troublesome and you can squeak 335 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: out a little bit of time just for yourself if 336 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 1: you want to hang around, we'll be right back here Tomorrow. 337 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: We're gonna have a classic episode, and then on Monday 338 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 1: there will be more new episodes. Stuff you Missed in 339 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: History Class is a production of I Heart Radio. For 340 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the i heart 341 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 342 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:57,399 Speaker 1: favorite shows.