WEBVTT - Skip Hollandsworth: She Kills 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:05.359 This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:16.479 And when he said, why did you do it? She 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:19.239 would cross her legs and smoke a cigarette and just 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:20.119 sort of smile. 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:31.320 I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:34.120 in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:38.000 podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career, 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:42.000 research for my many audio and book projects has taken 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:45.320 me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:50.080 with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, 0:00:50.080 --> 0:00:54.520 and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:58.280 crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:01.280 good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:07.160 unpublished details behind their stories. I'm really thrilled to have 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:10.200 my buddy Skip hollands Worth on the show this week. 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:12.760 He wrote a book called She Kills, and it's a 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:17.040 collection of updated stories from Texas Monthly, focusing on fascinating 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:20.720 and often shocking female murderers and some of these cases 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:23.119 I've never heard of. Skip is one of the best 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:30.280 storytellers around, so let's talk about the book. First. Is 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:32.680 this the first book that you've had out since The 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:33.640 Midnight Assassin. 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:35.880 It is the first book I've had out since The 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:38.960 Midnight Assassin. And it wasn't even my idea. It was 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:42.039 an editor at Texas Monthly, Megan cry We had this 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:46.000 deal in place with Arper Collins. Texas Monthly did there's 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:47.840 a certain number of books. And she said to me, 0:01:48.320 --> 0:01:51.120 do you know how much you write about women? And 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:54.120 I went, no, keep going thinking I was going to 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:56.840 get in trouble in some way, and she says, why 0:01:56.840 --> 0:02:00.600 don't we do a book of your favorite women criminals who. 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:03.960 Came to mind for you? Because I did read the 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:08.760 origin story of your fascination with women who kill with 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:10.880 the what do you call them? Oilcatter. I don't know 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:12.800 if you can get into that story, but that was 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:15.520 you were in high school, and this story was coming 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:17.560 out near where you were growing up, right. 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:21.200 Yeah. I grew up as white bred as they come, 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:24.400 in a town called witch Soft Falls north of Dallas, 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:28.600 and I was a cellist in the school orchestra. I 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:32.160 volunteered at the state hospital. I was an eagle scoup. 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:35.800 My dad was a pastor. I mean, you can't get 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:40.519 any more boring. Than that, but there was this part 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:43.880 of me that did sort of have a fascination with 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:47.520 the shadow side of life. And when I was about 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:50.760 sixteen years old, after my junior year in high school, 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:53.520 my dad brought in a copy of the witch Soft 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:57.200 Falls Record News, the local newspaper, and the headline went 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:02.240 millionaire olman and wife found in their mansion. And it 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:08.720 was Bobby Burns, this lean, charismatic wildcatter who had been 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:11.840 shot to death in his bed. There was a Dick 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:13.440 Van doc Day, so he had a bed and his 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:15.240 wife had a bed on the other side of the bedroom. 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:17.920 Then someone had shot her to death. She was wearing 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:20.680 a gown from naming Marcus. I mean, they were ultra rich. 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:23.880 They would fly in their own private plane to Dallas, 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:26.320 which took about ten minutes on the plane, so that 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:29.280 she could go shopping. You know. She was this charming 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:34.720 ex model, and he was this gung ho wildcatter who 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:38.040 was drilling big wells and so they were richest chocolate. 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:42.360 They had this well, this huge mansion, eight thousand square 0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:45.360 feet in size. We all just were sort of fascinated 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:47.920 by him. And here it turned out that they had 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:51.440 been murdered by we figured some rival. I will never 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:55.240 forget being at my church youth group that night, Sunday 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:58.680 night going the killer could still be in our neighborhood 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:01.320 right now, he could still be checking any of us. 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:05.800 And suddenly my imagination took this giant leap as I 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:08.880 began to realize there was this whole other world I 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:12.120 knew nothing about. Well, that isn't the end of the story, 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:15.960 because a few days after the shootings it turned out 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:20.520 that the medical examiner had discovered that she, the wife, Abby, 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:23.880 had shot Bobby and that she then in turn got 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:27.159 climbed back into bed and shot herself. And no one 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:30.719 to this day knows what happened, and it's haunted me 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:34.279 ghost like all these years, last fifty years. 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:38.520 How is that possible that nobody had any kind of 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:41.520 an inkling, you know, of their mental health struggles that 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:45.279 she had, or nobody dug into this enough to be 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:46.160 able to figure it out. 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:48.360 Oh, I think there are a lot of people who 0:04:48.440 --> 0:04:51.719 knew there was, you know, rumors that would go through 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:56.080 about her private life, his private life. Maybe she shot 0:04:56.160 --> 0:04:58.359 him because he was going to take her, or he 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:02.039 was going to go live with another woman. Maybe she 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:05.039 shot herself because she didn't want to go to prison. 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:08.440 You know, the names of people who could have had 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:10.600 or could not have had affairs with either one of 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:13.679 them just whipped through that town like a prairie fire. 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:18.839 Wow. How did the medical examiner come to this conclusion? 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:22.120 You know, was it the powder burns on her or 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:24.360 the trajectory or what was it? 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:28.320 Powder burns? Where the gun fell, how the gun was 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:30.640 used was pretty standard stuff. 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:34.360 Yeah, And they probably checked her hands for residue and 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:35.200 all of that stuff. 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:38.320 So I used to swim laps. I'd go to the 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:40.680 country club to which I calls country club with my 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:43.680 wealthier friends, and I would swim laps and slow down 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:46.880 past the spot where the mothers would sit in their 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:50.040 lawn chairs and gossip. And I would be doing this 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:54.000 horrible version of the Australian crawl, hoping that I would 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:55.560 be able to hear something true. 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:57.239 Crime reporter right there in high school. 0:05:57.320 --> 0:06:00.520 Huh Yeah, hollins Worth reporting mission had begun. 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:03.000 In the book you said you could have started your 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:07.080 own little detective agency back then. Was that like a 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:09.920 serious Did you really think about that? You really were 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:13.200 were going to keep files on this kind of a story. 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:16.120 Not at that moment. I didn't know. You know, I 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:18.880 had read an Agatha Christie novel. I think I'd read 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:21.840 some Sherlock Holms short stories. But I didn't even know 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:25.039 anybody who had been arrested. Back then, none of my 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:28.160 friends had gone to jail. I just didn't know that 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:31.240 world at all. But it stuck with me as I 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:32.880 went on with life. 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:36.200 Moving back to the main point of your book here, 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:40.479 what do you think was so fascinating? Was it the wealth? 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:43.599 Was it the mystery of this case, and I don't 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:47.160 mean just for you, for everybody, or was it, you know, 0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:50.159 that the possibility that this woman did do this? And 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:53.320 I also wonder if people believed that this really was 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:55.680 a murder suicide. There's a lot of questions at once. 0:06:56.160 --> 0:06:58.640 Uh, the fact that they had so much money, that 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:01.159 they lived such an elegant live. They would go in 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:04.920 these safaris in Africa, and Abby she was a better 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:08.800 shot than her husband. So you know, people tried to 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:11.760 tie it together as to what would have made her 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:15.800 do this. She was not a violent person. She had 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:19.920 not done anything remotely wrong. I mean, it was a 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:24.800 brutal execution. And you know, this is what drives true 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:29.360 crime because you're not really writing or interested in true crime. 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:33.720 By definition, it's the story of people, these people who 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:38.240 cross this invisible line and do something no one expects. 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:43.000 And I think people now understand that women can be 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:47.640 just as violent, you know as men, sometimes more violent. 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:51.400 But I still think that is there's certainly like a 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:56.560 sexism involved there, because there still is that disbelief going back, 0:07:56.680 --> 0:07:59.320 of course hundreds and hundreds of years, but really squarely 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:02.640 landing on Lizzie Borden, wouldn't you think that's one of 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:06.120 the origins. That's one of the big cases where you 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:09.080 just think, there's no way this woman didn't do it, 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:11.200 some people might think, and then there's a jury of 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:14.120 men who acquits her in something like forty five seconds. 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:18.160 That's probably exaggerating, but I mean, don't you think that 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:21.160 that's a prime example of people just saying that a 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:23.280 woman could have never done this, at least a woman 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:26.160 of a certain socioeconomic background. 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:29.280 Yeah, I mean, there are women who are hardwired to 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:30.880 commit as much crime as men. 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:33.000 I'm wondering if you're going to say those are not 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:35.800 the most interesting ones, interesting ones that don't seem are 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:36.800 wired like that. 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:39.880 Those are not the most interesting ones. The interesting ones 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:45.199 are the Abby Burns, the other women in my book 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:49.040 who were like wallflowers who sort of stayed in the shed, 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:52.240 you know, just had their own little, quiet lives that 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:58.800 never did anything remotely rebellious. And something began bubbling to 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:01.840 the top. And I don't know if it was, you know, 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:06.760 in long held resentment and a long simmering jealousy, something 0:09:06.800 --> 0:09:09.720 that began to gnaw away at them and they let loose. 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:13.079 Now the Oxygen Network would say these women snapped and 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:16.240 they should be on our show. That's not true. They 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:20.120 didn't snap. Something was going on in them for them 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:24.280 to finally lash out to get some kind of vengeance 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:28.680 or justice or redemption. And those are the women that 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:33.200 fascinated me. Like talking about quick verdicts. One of the 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:35.640 stories in the book is about a woman named Candace 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:41.080 Mussler who was the great socialite of Houston in the sixties, 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:44.800 and in nineteen sixty four she was arrested with her 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:49.760 young nephew she persuaded him. According to the police and prosecutors, 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:55.079 she persuaded her nephew, young Hansoon looked like Elvis, to 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:57.839 stab her husband to death. Then she got accused of 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:01.560 stabbing him, trying to stab the nephew to death who 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:04.680 that she was having this big affair with. And she 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:08.360 goes to court, and she had charmed so many people 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:11.760 over the years. You know, this outcast girl from Georgia 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:16.199 and Louisiana who comes to Houston and Mary's this extremely 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:22.199 rich financier. She doesn't show any violent tendencies until something 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:25.080 happened in this day in nineteen sixty four, and she 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:29.280 was acquitted quickly because the male jurors just could not 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:33.600 fathom that a woman with big heels, high heels and 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:38.240 this sweet southern smile could pull something like this off. 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:45.320 I wonder if you go back to all of these 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:49.280 different layers of the way that women can be seen, 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:53.760 women killers especially. I don't know if you would consider 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:58.200 Abby Burns and Candice Muscler as the I don't think 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:01.120 fem fatale is the right word, but there is that 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:05.000 fascination with the dangerous woman. I assume that Muscler is 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:07.440 in more of that category than you would think that 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:08.400 Abby Burns is. 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:12.040 Oh yeah, Abby Burns was no fem fatale. Candace was 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:15.040 a fem fatal I mean she married again, I think 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:19.000 for his third time, and somebody supposedly threw that man 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:22.280 off the roof of her Reverokes mansion. You know, it 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:25.839 was phenomenal the attention she used to get. When her 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:29.960 trial happened, the New York Times sent a reporter to 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:32.440 cover it, back before the New York Times had reporters 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:35.280 that did that kind of thing, and he described it 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:38.520 as one of the most spectacular criminal trials in the 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:42.960 history of the United States. It's just unbelievable. And when 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:45.880 you go and watch the testimony or read the transcripts 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:50.000 of the testimony, it feels like you are being sucked 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:54.880 back into time when Candace was pretty much as famous 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:58.200 as Jackie Kennedy. People today don't even know who she is. 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:00.400 But that was the crime of the You know, every 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:02.760 year there's a crime of the century. That was it 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:03.600 for a year or two? 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:07.960 Is she the woman who it was scandalous that she 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:11.559 had dated or had an affair with a black musician. 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:12.559 Was that her? 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:14.439 That's her? And I'm trying to remember the name of. 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:16.040 The musician, Chuck Berry. 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:19.640 Okay, I mean, think of this now. She gets acquitted 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:22.199 in the trial of the century, as the reporters were 0:12:22.200 --> 0:12:24.360 calling it, and then, you know, the reporters down there. 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:26.760 Have you ever heard of a woman reporter for the 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:30.760 New York World named Theo Wilson. Yes, she was the 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:34.520 first great female crime writer. She was the Brenda Star 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:38.440 of America. And it's amazing that there haven't been more 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:42.520 historical books written on this group. She'd befriended Judy Garland. 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:46.680 After her acquittal, she went to a Martin Luther King 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:51.360 Southern Leadership convention and set next to him at private 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:54.360 dinner she threw at her home. She had Chuck Berry 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:57.800 play a concert at the backyard of her house. Is 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:01.040 She covered the outdoor swim well with she glass so 0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:03.960 that people could walk on it, and she said, now, 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:06.840 ladies and gentlemen, it is my honor to present to 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:10.240 you Chuck Berry. He comes on to the stage and 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:13.240 she lays a kiss on him. That Dick de Garon, 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:15.960 the famous Houston defense attorney, who was an up and 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:19.280 comer at that time, said, shocked the city of Houston 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:23.280 from you know, down to its soul. And she didn't care. 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:26.679 She was just this free spirit who happened to have 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:27.880 a need to kill men. 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:30.920 What was her motive for the husband? Is it money? 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:33.800 I assume it was money. But she had a lot 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:36.800 of money if she just divorced. So I don't know. 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:38.760 And that was If you read that story, you will 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:42.000 think that I didn't answer that question. And some of 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:44.800 these questions, just like Abby Burns, are not meant to. 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:47.400 Be answered, and you actually write quite a bit of it. 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:51.040 I feel like about unanswered questions. You know, you had 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:54.600 your podcast Tom Brown's Body, you wrote about, you know, 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:58.080 the servant girl annihilator from Austin in the eighteen eighties 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:01.640 unsolved case. So have you taken a look at why 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:04.160 you like those kinds of cases where you just have, 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:07.440 regardless if it's women or men as the killers, where 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:10.520 you just have all of these unanswered questions floating around. 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:13.840 I just think it's more interesting when it's not a 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:17.800 cut and drive case. And you know, when there's times 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:20.080 you're not going to know the answer, like the that 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:23.640 Smith forever on that book about the serial killer in Austin, 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:28.120 and it was just hours days going through old no 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:31.040 you know this, and going through old nineteenth century newspapers 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:34.240 looking for one quote from a sheriff or a police 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:37.200 officer that would give me on the right track, and 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:40.440 I never got there. Now I found really interesting stuff. 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:44.360 But did I find the answer? No, which is what 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:47.840 makes it, you know, the story even more interesting. It's like, 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:51.680 you know, when the BTK killer was finally found by 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:54.560 the next day, almost everyone was bored with that story. 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:58.320 You know, it's always the uncalled that are the most interesting. 0:14:58.560 --> 0:14:59.880 That's why I enjoyed doing those. 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:02.920 In my other podcast, Buried Bones, I work with Paul Holes, 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:06.840 who's a forensic investigator, and he most famously helped solve 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:10.240 the Golden State killer case, which you know, this was 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:14.800 a rapist, sadist killer who Paul had pursued for so 0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:18.560 long because he was in California as an investigator. They 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:22.640 catch Joseph DiAngelo and then I asked him, I think 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:24.760 just a few weeks ago, why where are we with 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:27.400 that case? Did he plead what happened? And he's like, 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:29.920 I don't know, I don't really care at this point 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:32.880 because he's caught, And so I wonder if you It 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:35.360 sounds like you might have that same kind of attitude, right, 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:37.720 I mean, you know, there's a good story to tell 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:39.680 with a lot of these types of stories that have 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:43.760 an actual ending, but the mysterious ones are the most interesting, 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:46.840 especially if they are with women. What do you think 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:49.960 of the phenomena that happens. I mean, set aside the 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:54.160 Richard Ramirez women fawning all over him and asking him 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:57.040 to marry them and stuff, what about the men who 0:15:57.200 --> 0:16:01.080 fawn over the candae mosclers of the world, world who 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:03.880 invite the dangerous woman in. 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:06.840 And there were men who flew into Houston just to 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:10.000 get their shot at her. I mean there was a 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:15.360 famous Houston society columnist named Maxine Messenger who essentially kept 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:18.160 a running tab on who Candice was going out with. 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:21.600 This is after her, you know, one husband disappeared, the 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:24.600 second husband had been stebbed to death, the third husband 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:27.560 had been thrown off the roof of their mansion. And 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:30.640 you just think people would run for their lives. No, 0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:34.080 men were wanting to, you know, have their shot at 0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:36.120 her so they could tell their buddies just how close 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:36.640 they came. 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:39.680 So I also think when I think about female killers, 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:41.760 I go to, well, I feel like it's sort of 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:45.480 at the other end of the spectrum, Eileen Warnos, where 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:50.840 you have a really dramatic movie Monster that won awards 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:53.400 and was just such a compelling portrayal of this woman 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:57.480 who had endured a lot of abuse before she you know, 0:16:57.600 --> 0:16:59.960 kills a series of men when she's a sex one 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:03.440 and so you know, this is Eileen Warners has had 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:06.919 things made about her, but she's sort of at the 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:11.159 opposite end of the spectrum, a different kind of dangerous woman. 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:15.680 And we certainly do pay more attention to not women 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:20.040 on the fringe like that, more of the unexpected gentleman. 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:22.480 You could be sleeping right next to her and she'll 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:24.760 kill you kind of women, don't you think. And that's 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:26.919 a weird it's a weird dynamic to have with a 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:27.920 true crime audience. 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:32.280 Yeah, And it's the women that are beguiling that draw 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:37.280 men in. Candice after her acquittal, moves back to Houston, 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:42.399 of all places, and people drive past the mansion and 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:45.840 there are tour buses that drive past the mansion just 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:48.280 so these people will pay ten bucks to get a 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:52.360 look at her, and sometimes she would wave at them. 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:55.679 So there was this mystery to who she was. She 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:59.119 did not hesitate to go out in public and support 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:01.879 public call and you know, she gave money to the 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:05.600 Boys Club, She gave money to the Houston Rodeo. She 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:08.840 wore you know, cowgirl outfits every night to the rodeo, 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:11.920 and she would just look at you when if a reporter, 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:14.719 if he ever brought up the idea that maybe she 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:17.439 was guilty of these killings, and you would think, well, 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:19.960 here we go, she's gonna something's going to blow up, 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:23.520 and she would charm the reporter. You know a lot 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:25.600 of them came down. There are a lot of New 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:29.320 York reporters. The guy Jim Bishop who wrote all those 0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:32.000 the day Lincoln died, the day Kennedy, he was a 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:35.360 big best selling author. He came down and covered her 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:38.000 trial because he could not get enough of her. 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:40.679 Let's finish up with Candace, because I don't think we 0:18:40.760 --> 0:18:43.920 talked about how she died. She died at fifty six, 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:44.680 fifty seven. 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:48.520 Maybe she'd had so many Perkidan like drugs that were 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:51.760 in her system that she died in her sleep. Well 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:54.560 did she die in her sleep? You know there's a 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:58.080 conspiracy group at out there that will say that she 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:01.840 was killed by somebody that didn't want his secret to 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:05.520 come out, like the nephew or he became her nephew 0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:08.399 who she had the grand love affair with, became the 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:12.560 Hugh Hefner of Houston and would go to a bar 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:17.160 called Tgi Friday's. Now, this is a man who everyone knew, 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:21.720 stabbed the husband, the nephew, the young nephew, completely entranced 0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:25.400 by Candace. Women went after him in the same way 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:27.000 that men went after Candace. 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:33.800 Okay, let's talk about Peggy Joe. Is it talus? Is 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:34.920 that how you say her last name? 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:37.560 Peggy Joe Talis who did not commit a murder. But 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:40.359 she's a story I was ho It's maybe my favorite 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:41.679 story I've written about. 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:44.520 Comes to crime, I can tell, and the way you 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:45.480 write it I can tell. 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:48.719 I mean, here was a woman who grew up driving, 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:51.800 you know, when she was she dropped out of high school. 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:54.800 She got a Fiat, He's fiat. She drove it to 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:57.760 San Francisco one weekend just to see if she could 0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:02.199 meet Lawrence Ferlinghetti at the City Lights bookstore. She was 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:06.359 a free spirit. I found that the woman who was 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:09.600 her best friend, who said Peggy Joe just was a 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:12.480 free spirit. She just wanted to do her own thing. 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:16.240 She didn't care about money or children. She just wanted 0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:18.560 to get in that Fiat and fly around town and 0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:21.720 stop at concerts. And they went to the Doobie Brothers 0:20:21.760 --> 0:20:25.560 concert in the seventies and the Rolling Stones Mick Jagger 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:30.400 was writhing around, still wrinkle free. I think she began 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:32.960 a relationship with a guy. She didn't have much of 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:35.240 a job. She worked behind the counter at a Marriott. 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:37.920 She began a relationship with a guy who was a banker, 0:20:37.960 --> 0:20:40.640 and she decided one day to go visit him at 0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:43.520 his home where at his place of work, just outside 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:47.359 of town, outside of Dallas, and she watched a woman 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:49.359 getting his car and drive away, and she realized that 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:52.520 was his wife. So there are these series of little 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:56.639 disappointments that began to run through her life, which is 0:20:56.760 --> 0:21:02.920 not uncommon for middle class, middle class women who have 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:07.280 been abused, not necessarily abused, but just ignored. And she 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:10.680 was began to live with her mom in a little 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:14.560 two bedroom apartment in Garland, Texas, a suburb of Dallas, 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:17.879 because her mom was getting sick and needed some help. 0:21:18.320 --> 0:21:21.240 And she began to see her life, according to the 0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:25.280 friend I talked to, drift away, and she got a 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:28.720 job at a courier service driving envelopes around. This is 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:33.960 before the Federal Express days. She stopped going out, and 0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:38.240 then these bank robberies began to happen in two thousand 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:41.359 and one, and I was a young reporter, new reporter 0:21:41.440 --> 0:21:44.360 then for Texas Monthly, and so I would cut these 0:21:44.480 --> 0:21:46.719 articles out, thinking there might be a story here. Because 0:21:47.000 --> 0:21:49.600 the story was about a man dressed as a cowboy, 0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:53.040 wearing this big ten gallon hat with a big belt buckle, 0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:56.880 cowboy boots, a beard. We c FAI said, well, they 0:21:56.960 --> 0:22:00.280 probably pasted that on with some sort of glue, but 0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:03.080 no one ever thought, well, that's a woman. It was 0:22:03.119 --> 0:22:07.160 a man. And he began to hit all these small 0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:10.359 town banks, getting a thousand dollars here, two thousand dollars, 0:22:10.880 --> 0:22:15.360 and driving away, never showing his face. Always he had 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:19.680 taken a license plate from a nearby apartment near the bank, 0:22:19.720 --> 0:22:22.000 and he would take his office screw a new one on. 0:22:22.320 --> 0:22:24.879 So the FBI, when they would look at tapes and 0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:28.280