1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:05,359 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:16,479 Speaker 2: And when he said, why did you do it? She 3 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 2: would cross her legs and smoke a cigarette and just 4 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:20,119 Speaker 2: sort of smile. 5 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 6 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the 7 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career, 8 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken 9 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down 10 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, 11 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true 12 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both 13 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the 14 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. I'm really thrilled to have 15 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: my buddy Skip hollands Worth on the show this week. 16 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 1: He wrote a book called She Kills, and it's a 17 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 1: collection of updated stories from Texas Monthly, focusing on fascinating 18 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: and often shocking female murderers and some of these cases 19 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:23,119 Speaker 1: I've never heard of. Skip is one of the best 20 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: storytellers around, so let's talk about the book. First. Is 21 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,680 Speaker 1: this the first book that you've had out since The 22 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: Midnight Assassin. 23 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 2: It is the first book I've had out since The 24 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 2: Midnight Assassin. And it wasn't even my idea. It was 25 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 2: an editor at Texas Monthly, Megan cry We had this 26 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 2: deal in place with Arper Collins. Texas Monthly did there's 27 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 2: a certain number of books. And she said to me, 28 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 2: do you know how much you write about women? And 29 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 2: I went, no, keep going thinking I was going to 30 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 2: get in trouble in some way, and she says, why 31 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 2: don't we do a book of your favorite women criminals who. 32 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: Came to mind for you? Because I did read the 33 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: origin story of your fascination with women who kill with 34 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: the what do you call them? Oilcatter. I don't know 35 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 1: if you can get into that story, but that was 36 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: you were in high school, and this story was coming 37 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: out near where you were growing up, right. 38 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. I grew up as white bred as they come, 39 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 2: in a town called witch Soft Falls north of Dallas, 40 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 2: and I was a cellist in the school orchestra. I 41 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 2: volunteered at the state hospital. I was an eagle scoup. 42 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 2: My dad was a pastor. I mean, you can't get 43 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:40,519 Speaker 2: any more boring. Than that, but there was this part 44 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 2: of me that did sort of have a fascination with 45 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 2: the shadow side of life. And when I was about 46 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 2: sixteen years old, after my junior year in high school, 47 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 2: my dad brought in a copy of the witch Soft 48 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 2: Falls Record News, the local newspaper, and the headline went 49 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 2: millionaire olman and wife found in their mansion. And it 50 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 2: was Bobby Burns, this lean, charismatic wildcatter who had been 51 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 2: shot to death in his bed. There was a Dick 52 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 2: Van doc Day, so he had a bed and his 53 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 2: wife had a bed on the other side of the bedroom. 54 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 2: Then someone had shot her to death. She was wearing 55 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 2: a gown from naming Marcus. I mean, they were ultra rich. 56 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 2: They would fly in their own private plane to Dallas, 57 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 2: which took about ten minutes on the plane, so that 58 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 2: she could go shopping. You know. She was this charming 59 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 2: ex model, and he was this gung ho wildcatter who 60 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 2: was drilling big wells and so they were richest chocolate. 61 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 2: They had this well, this huge mansion, eight thousand square 62 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 2: feet in size. We all just were sort of fascinated 63 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 2: by him. And here it turned out that they had 64 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 2: been murdered by we figured some rival. I will never 65 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 2: forget being at my church youth group that night, Sunday 66 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 2: night going the killer could still be in our neighborhood 67 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 2: right now, he could still be checking any of us. 68 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 2: And suddenly my imagination took this giant leap as I 69 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 2: began to realize there was this whole other world I 70 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 2: knew nothing about. Well, that isn't the end of the story, 71 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 2: because a few days after the shootings it turned out 72 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 2: that the medical examiner had discovered that she, the wife, Abby, 73 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 2: had shot Bobby and that she then in turn got 74 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 2: climbed back into bed and shot herself. And no one 75 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 2: to this day knows what happened, and it's haunted me 76 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 2: ghost like all these years, last fifty years. 77 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: How is that possible that nobody had any kind of 78 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: an inkling, you know, of their mental health struggles that 79 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 1: she had, or nobody dug into this enough to be 80 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:46,160 Speaker 1: able to figure it out. 81 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 2: Oh, I think there are a lot of people who 82 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,719 Speaker 2: knew there was, you know, rumors that would go through 83 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 2: about her private life, his private life. Maybe she shot 84 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:58,359 Speaker 2: him because he was going to take her, or he 85 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:02,039 Speaker 2: was going to go live with another woman. Maybe she 86 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 2: shot herself because she didn't want to go to prison. 87 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 2: You know, the names of people who could have had 88 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 2: or could not have had affairs with either one of 89 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,679 Speaker 2: them just whipped through that town like a prairie fire. 90 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 1: Wow. How did the medical examiner come to this conclusion? 91 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: You know, was it the powder burns on her or 92 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 1: the trajectory or what was it? 93 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 2: Powder burns? Where the gun fell, how the gun was 94 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 2: used was pretty standard stuff. 95 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, And they probably checked her hands for residue and 96 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: all of that stuff. 97 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 2: So I used to swim laps. I'd go to the 98 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 2: country club to which I calls country club with my 99 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 2: wealthier friends, and I would swim laps and slow down 100 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 2: past the spot where the mothers would sit in their 101 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 2: lawn chairs and gossip. And I would be doing this 102 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 2: horrible version of the Australian crawl, hoping that I would 103 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 2: be able to hear something true. 104 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:57,239 Speaker 1: Crime reporter right there in high school. 105 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 2: Huh Yeah, hollins Worth reporting mission had begun. 106 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: In the book you said you could have started your 107 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: own little detective agency back then. Was that like a 108 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 1: serious Did you really think about that? You really were 109 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: were going to keep files on this kind of a story. 110 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 2: Not at that moment. I didn't know. You know, I 111 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 2: had read an Agatha Christie novel. I think I'd read 112 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,840 Speaker 2: some Sherlock Holms short stories. But I didn't even know 113 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,039 Speaker 2: anybody who had been arrested. Back then, none of my 114 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 2: friends had gone to jail. I just didn't know that 115 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 2: world at all. But it stuck with me as I 116 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 2: went on with life. 117 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: Moving back to the main point of your book here, 118 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:40,479 Speaker 1: what do you think was so fascinating? Was it the wealth? 119 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 1: Was it the mystery of this case, and I don't 120 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 1: mean just for you, for everybody, or was it, you know, 121 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 1: that the possibility that this woman did do this? And 122 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: I also wonder if people believed that this really was 123 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: a murder suicide. There's a lot of questions at once. 124 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 2: Uh, the fact that they had so much money, that 125 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 2: they lived such an elegant live. They would go in 126 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 2: these safaris in Africa, and Abby she was a better 127 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 2: shot than her husband. So you know, people tried to 128 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 2: tie it together as to what would have made her 129 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 2: do this. She was not a violent person. She had 130 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 2: not done anything remotely wrong. I mean, it was a 131 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 2: brutal execution. And you know, this is what drives true 132 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 2: crime because you're not really writing or interested in true crime. 133 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 2: By definition, it's the story of people, these people who 134 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 2: cross this invisible line and do something no one expects. 135 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: And I think people now understand that women can be 136 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: just as violent, you know as men, sometimes more violent. 137 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: But I still think that is there's certainly like a 138 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: sexism involved there, because there still is that disbelief going back, 139 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: of course hundreds and hundreds of years, but really squarely 140 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: landing on Lizzie Borden, wouldn't you think that's one of 141 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: the origins. That's one of the big cases where you 142 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: just think, there's no way this woman didn't do it, 143 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: some people might think, and then there's a jury of 144 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: men who acquits her in something like forty five seconds. 145 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: That's probably exaggerating, but I mean, don't you think that 146 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: that's a prime example of people just saying that a 147 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: woman could have never done this, at least a woman 148 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: of a certain socioeconomic background. 149 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, there are women who are hardwired to 150 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 2: commit as much crime as men. 151 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you're going to say those are not 152 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: the most interesting ones, interesting ones that don't seem are 153 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: wired like that. 154 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 2: Those are not the most interesting ones. The interesting ones 155 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:45,199 Speaker 2: are the Abby Burns, the other women in my book 156 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 2: who were like wallflowers who sort of stayed in the shed, 157 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 2: you know, just had their own little, quiet lives that 158 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 2: never did anything remotely rebellious. And something began bubbling to 159 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 2: the top. And I don't know if it was, you know, 160 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 2: in long held resentment and a long simmering jealousy, something 161 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 2: that began to gnaw away at them and they let loose. 162 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,079 Speaker 2: Now the Oxygen Network would say these women snapped and 163 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 2: they should be on our show. That's not true. They 164 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 2: didn't snap. Something was going on in them for them 165 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 2: to finally lash out to get some kind of vengeance 166 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 2: or justice or redemption. And those are the women that 167 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 2: fascinated me. Like talking about quick verdicts. One of the 168 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 2: stories in the book is about a woman named Candace 169 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 2: Mussler who was the great socialite of Houston in the sixties, 170 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 2: and in nineteen sixty four she was arrested with her 171 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 2: young nephew she persuaded him. According to the police and prosecutors, 172 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:55,079 Speaker 2: she persuaded her nephew, young Hansoon looked like Elvis, to 173 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,839 Speaker 2: stab her husband to death. Then she got accused of 174 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 2: stabbing him, trying to stab the nephew to death who 175 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 2: that she was having this big affair with. And she 176 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 2: goes to court, and she had charmed so many people 177 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 2: over the years. You know, this outcast girl from Georgia 178 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 2: and Louisiana who comes to Houston and Mary's this extremely 179 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 2: rich financier. She doesn't show any violent tendencies until something 180 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 2: happened in this day in nineteen sixty four, and she 181 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 2: was acquitted quickly because the male jurors just could not 182 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 2: fathom that a woman with big heels, high heels and 183 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 2: this sweet southern smile could pull something like this off. 184 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: I wonder if you go back to all of these 185 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: different layers of the way that women can be seen, 186 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: women killers especially. I don't know if you would consider 187 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 1: Abby Burns and Candice Muscler as the I don't think 188 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: fem fatale is the right word, but there is that 189 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: fascination with the dangerous woman. I assume that Muscler is 190 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 1: in more of that category than you would think that 191 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: Abby Burns is. 192 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Abby Burns was no fem fatale. Candace was 193 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 2: a fem fatal I mean she married again, I think 194 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 2: for his third time, and somebody supposedly threw that man 195 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 2: off the roof of her Reverokes mansion. You know, it 196 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,839 Speaker 2: was phenomenal the attention she used to get. When her 197 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 2: trial happened, the New York Times sent a reporter to 198 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 2: cover it, back before the New York Times had reporters 199 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 2: that did that kind of thing, and he described it 200 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 2: as one of the most spectacular criminal trials in the 201 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 2: history of the United States. It's just unbelievable. And when 202 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 2: you go and watch the testimony or read the transcripts 203 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 2: of the testimony, it feels like you are being sucked 204 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 2: back into time when Candace was pretty much as famous 205 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 2: as Jackie Kennedy. People today don't even know who she is. 206 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 2: But that was the crime of the You know, every 207 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 2: year there's a crime of the century. That was it 208 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 2: for a year or two? 209 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 1: Is she the woman who it was scandalous that she 210 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,559 Speaker 1: had dated or had an affair with a black musician. 211 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:12,559 Speaker 1: Was that her? 212 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:14,439 Speaker 2: That's her? And I'm trying to remember the name of. 213 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: The musician, Chuck Berry. 214 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 2: Okay, I mean, think of this now. She gets acquitted 215 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:22,199 Speaker 2: in the trial of the century, as the reporters were 216 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 2: calling it, and then, you know, the reporters down there. 217 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 2: Have you ever heard of a woman reporter for the 218 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 2: New York World named Theo Wilson. Yes, she was the 219 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 2: first great female crime writer. She was the Brenda Star 220 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 2: of America. And it's amazing that there haven't been more 221 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 2: historical books written on this group. She'd befriended Judy Garland. 222 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 2: After her acquittal, she went to a Martin Luther King 223 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 2: Southern Leadership convention and set next to him at private 224 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 2: dinner she threw at her home. She had Chuck Berry 225 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 2: play a concert at the backyard of her house. Is 226 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 2: She covered the outdoor swim well with she glass so 227 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 2: that people could walk on it, and she said, now, 228 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 2: ladies and gentlemen, it is my honor to present to 229 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 2: you Chuck Berry. He comes on to the stage and 230 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 2: she lays a kiss on him. That Dick de Garon, 231 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 2: the famous Houston defense attorney, who was an up and 232 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 2: comer at that time, said, shocked the city of Houston 233 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 2: from you know, down to its soul. And she didn't care. 234 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 2: She was just this free spirit who happened to have 235 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 2: a need to kill men. 236 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: What was her motive for the husband? Is it money? 237 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 2: I assume it was money. But she had a lot 238 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 2: of money if she just divorced. So I don't know. 239 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 2: And that was If you read that story, you will 240 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 2: think that I didn't answer that question. And some of 241 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 2: these questions, just like Abby Burns, are not meant to. 242 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: Be answered, and you actually write quite a bit of it. 243 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 1: I feel like about unanswered questions. You know, you had 244 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: your podcast Tom Brown's Body, you wrote about, you know, 245 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 1: the servant girl annihilator from Austin in the eighteen eighties 246 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: unsolved case. So have you taken a look at why 247 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: you like those kinds of cases where you just have, 248 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: regardless if it's women or men as the killers, where 249 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: you just have all of these unanswered questions floating around. 250 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 2: I just think it's more interesting when it's not a 251 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 2: cut and drive case. And you know, when there's times 252 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 2: you're not going to know the answer, like the that 253 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 2: Smith forever on that book about the serial killer in Austin, 254 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 2: and it was just hours days going through old no 255 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 2: you know this, and going through old nineteenth century newspapers 256 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 2: looking for one quote from a sheriff or a police 257 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 2: officer that would give me on the right track, and 258 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 2: I never got there. Now I found really interesting stuff. 259 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 2: But did I find the answer? No, which is what 260 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 2: makes it, you know, the story even more interesting. It's like, 261 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 2: you know, when the BTK killer was finally found by 262 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 2: the next day, almost everyone was bored with that story. 263 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 2: You know, it's always the uncalled that are the most interesting. 264 00:14:58,560 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 2: That's why I enjoyed doing those. 265 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: In my other podcast, Buried Bones, I work with Paul Holes, 266 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: who's a forensic investigator, and he most famously helped solve 267 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: the Golden State killer case, which you know, this was 268 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: a rapist, sadist killer who Paul had pursued for so 269 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: long because he was in California as an investigator. They 270 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: catch Joseph DiAngelo and then I asked him, I think 271 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: just a few weeks ago, why where are we with 272 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: that case? Did he plead what happened? And he's like, 273 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't really care at this point 274 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: because he's caught, And so I wonder if you It 275 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: sounds like you might have that same kind of attitude, right, 276 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, there's a good story to tell 277 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: with a lot of these types of stories that have 278 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: an actual ending, but the mysterious ones are the most interesting, 279 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: especially if they are with women. What do you think 280 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: of the phenomena that happens. I mean, set aside the 281 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: Richard Ramirez women fawning all over him and asking him 282 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: to marry them and stuff, what about the men who 283 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: fawn over the candae mosclers of the world, world who 284 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: invite the dangerous woman in. 285 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 2: And there were men who flew into Houston just to 286 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 2: get their shot at her. I mean there was a 287 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 2: famous Houston society columnist named Maxine Messenger who essentially kept 288 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 2: a running tab on who Candice was going out with. 289 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 2: This is after her, you know, one husband disappeared, the 290 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 2: second husband had been stebbed to death, the third husband 291 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 2: had been thrown off the roof of their mansion. And 292 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 2: you just think people would run for their lives. No, 293 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 2: men were wanting to, you know, have their shot at 294 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 2: her so they could tell their buddies just how close 295 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 2: they came. 296 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: So I also think when I think about female killers, 297 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: I go to, well, I feel like it's sort of 298 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: at the other end of the spectrum, Eileen Warnos, where 299 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 1: you have a really dramatic movie Monster that won awards 300 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 1: and was just such a compelling portrayal of this woman 301 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: who had endured a lot of abuse before she you know, 302 00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: kills a series of men when she's a sex one 303 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: and so you know, this is Eileen Warners has had 304 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,919 Speaker 1: things made about her, but she's sort of at the 305 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:11,159 Speaker 1: opposite end of the spectrum, a different kind of dangerous woman. 306 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 1: And we certainly do pay more attention to not women 307 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: on the fringe like that, more of the unexpected gentleman. 308 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: You could be sleeping right next to her and she'll 309 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: kill you kind of women, don't you think. And that's 310 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 1: a weird it's a weird dynamic to have with a 311 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 1: true crime audience. 312 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's the women that are beguiling that draw 313 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 2: men in. Candice after her acquittal, moves back to Houston, 314 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 2: of all places, and people drive past the mansion and 315 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 2: there are tour buses that drive past the mansion just 316 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 2: so these people will pay ten bucks to get a 317 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:52,360 Speaker 2: look at her, and sometimes she would wave at them. 318 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,679 Speaker 2: So there was this mystery to who she was. She 319 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 2: did not hesitate to go out in public and support 320 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 2: public call and you know, she gave money to the 321 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 2: Boys Club, She gave money to the Houston Rodeo. She 322 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 2: wore you know, cowgirl outfits every night to the rodeo, 323 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 2: and she would just look at you when if a reporter, 324 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:14,719 Speaker 2: if he ever brought up the idea that maybe she 325 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,439 Speaker 2: was guilty of these killings, and you would think, well, 326 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 2: here we go, she's gonna something's going to blow up, 327 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 2: and she would charm the reporter. You know a lot 328 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 2: of them came down. There are a lot of New 329 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 2: York reporters. The guy Jim Bishop who wrote all those 330 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 2: the day Lincoln died, the day Kennedy, he was a 331 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:35,360 Speaker 2: big best selling author. He came down and covered her 332 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 2: trial because he could not get enough of her. 333 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,679 Speaker 1: Let's finish up with Candace, because I don't think we 334 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 1: talked about how she died. She died at fifty six, 335 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 1: fifty seven. 336 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 2: Maybe she'd had so many Perkidan like drugs that were 337 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 2: in her system that she died in her sleep. Well 338 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 2: did she die in her sleep? You know there's a 339 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 2: conspiracy group at out there that will say that she 340 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 2: was killed by somebody that didn't want his secret to 341 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 2: come out, like the nephew or he became her nephew 342 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 2: who she had the grand love affair with, became the 343 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 2: Hugh Hefner of Houston and would go to a bar 344 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 2: called Tgi Friday's. Now, this is a man who everyone knew, 345 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 2: stabbed the husband, the nephew, the young nephew, completely entranced 346 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:25,400 Speaker 2: by Candace. Women went after him in the same way 347 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 2: that men went after Candace. 348 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about Peggy Joe. Is it talus? Is 349 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 1: that how you say her last name? 350 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 2: Peggy Joe Talis who did not commit a murder. But 351 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 2: she's a story I was ho It's maybe my favorite 352 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:41,679 Speaker 2: story I've written about. 353 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: Comes to crime, I can tell, and the way you 354 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: write it I can tell. 355 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,719 Speaker 2: I mean, here was a woman who grew up driving, 356 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 2: you know, when she was she dropped out of high school. 357 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 2: She got a Fiat, He's fiat. She drove it to 358 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 2: San Francisco one weekend just to see if she could 359 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:02,199 Speaker 2: meet Lawrence Ferlinghetti at the City Lights bookstore. She was 360 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 2: a free spirit. I found that the woman who was 361 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 2: her best friend, who said Peggy Joe just was a 362 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 2: free spirit. She just wanted to do her own thing. 363 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 2: She didn't care about money or children. She just wanted 364 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 2: to get in that Fiat and fly around town and 365 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 2: stop at concerts. And they went to the Doobie Brothers 366 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 2: concert in the seventies and the Rolling Stones Mick Jagger 367 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 2: was writhing around, still wrinkle free. I think she began 368 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 2: a relationship with a guy. She didn't have much of 369 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 2: a job. She worked behind the counter at a Marriott. 370 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 2: She began a relationship with a guy who was a banker, 371 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 2: and she decided one day to go visit him at 372 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 2: his home where at his place of work, just outside 373 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 2: of town, outside of Dallas, and she watched a woman 374 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 2: getting his car and drive away, and she realized that 375 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 2: was his wife. So there are these series of little 376 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 2: disappointments that began to run through her life, which is 377 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 2: not uncommon for middle class, middle class women who have 378 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 2: been abused, not necessarily abused, but just ignored. And she 379 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 2: was began to live with her mom in a little 380 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 2: two bedroom apartment in Garland, Texas, a suburb of Dallas, 381 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 2: because her mom was getting sick and needed some help. 382 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 2: And she began to see her life, according to the 383 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 2: friend I talked to, drift away, and she got a 384 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 2: job at a courier service driving envelopes around. This is 385 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 2: before the Federal Express days. She stopped going out, and 386 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 2: then these bank robberies began to happen in two thousand 387 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 2: and one, and I was a young reporter, new reporter 388 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,360 Speaker 2: then for Texas Monthly, and so I would cut these 389 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:46,719 Speaker 2: articles out, thinking there might be a story here. Because 390 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 2: the story was about a man dressed as a cowboy, 391 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 2: wearing this big ten gallon hat with a big belt buckle, 392 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,880 Speaker 2: cowboy boots, a beard. We c FAI said, well, they 393 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 2: probably pasted that on with some sort of glue, but 394 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 2: no one ever thought, well, that's a woman. It was 395 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 2: a man. And he began to hit all these small 396 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 2: town banks, getting a thousand dollars here, two thousand dollars, 397 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:15,360 Speaker 2: and driving away, never showing his face. Always he had 398 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:19,680 Speaker 2: taken a license plate from a nearby apartment near the bank, 399 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 2: and he would take his office screw a new one on. 400 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 2: So the FBI, when they would look at tapes and 401 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 2: see what car was driving away, they were getting diverted 402 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 2: and around the FBI headquarters he became known as Cowboy Bob. Well, 403 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,880 Speaker 2: Cowboy Bob finally made a mistake and did not take 404 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 2: off the license plate of his own car, so they 405 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 2: were able to trace him back to this apartment, and 406 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 2: there sat Peggy Joe Talas with glue starting to come down, 407 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 2: her face, and that had been keeping the beard on. 408 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 2: And the head FBI agent in charge of the bank 409 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 2: Robbery division then said to his other agents, gentlemen, we're 410 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 2: no longer looking for Cowboy Bob. We found Cowboy Bob. 411 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 2: Bett was stunning that someone could pull off these bank robberies. Now, 412 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 2: what she was good at was no job. Robberies, as 413 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 2: the cops call them. You hand them a note, you know, 414 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 2: and even that it's a pretty dangerous thing to do. 415 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,479 Speaker 2: It's it's not going after blowing up a vault. I mean, 416 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 2: that's the most dramatic of heyst but this was still 417 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 2: you had to be very careful not to run out 418 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 2: of the bank, not to squeal away, to keep your 419 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 2: head down, to make sure that you hadn't been given 420 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 2: some baked bills. And this robber, you know, never showed 421 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,239 Speaker 2: a gun. And when they realized and caught him and 422 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 2: realized there was a woman, they tried the FBI tried 423 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 2: to get her to talk about how she learned to 424 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 2: do this, because that surely couldn't be the first time 425 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 2: that a woman could rob a bank like that, But 426 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 2: maybe it was she found something, as her friend said, 427 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 2: she found something joyful about doing something so daring, so frightening, 428 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 2: and she got away with it, and she was able 429 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,360 Speaker 2: to use the money to pay off her mother's high 430 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 2: medical costs. 431 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 1: What is the time span of this. 432 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,199 Speaker 2: In nineteen ninety nine to two thousand and one, and 433 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 2: here's what happened next. She got a three year sentence, 434 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,200 Speaker 2: which is unheard of if she robbed like ten or 435 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,880 Speaker 2: eleven banks. She got a three year sentence, went off 436 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 2: to prison. Her niece came to see her. She came 437 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 2: through the door, she smiled, she said, I'm sorry, I'll 438 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 2: never do that again. She just seemed so casual. And 439 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,880 Speaker 2: a psychologist was brought in, this man who had interviewed 440 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 2: all kinds of bank robbers, and he couldn't get a 441 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 2: thing out of her. He was, you know, in transpire 442 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 2: because here was this woman who had pulled off these robberies. 443 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 2: And when he said why did you do it? She 444 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 2: would cross her legs and smoke a cigarette and just 445 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 2: sort of smile. Well, she was let out after three years. 446 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 2: She went back to live with her mother in an 447 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 2: apartment in Garland. 448 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: Her mom was still alive, still alive. 449 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 2: Her mother eventually died from her from a bone cancer, 450 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 2: and they had a funeral. Peggy shut everything down, gave 451 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,199 Speaker 2: away her plants. She was good at growing plants on 452 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 2: the front porch. You know. She handed out and gave 453 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:15,679 Speaker 2: away her furniture. She bought an RV with purple curtains, 454 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 2: used RB that weized as it went up a hill 455 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 2: for four thousand dollars. Now, you know, in another several years 456 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,400 Speaker 2: had passed when her mother died, she bought the RV 457 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 2: and she started living in these little public drive up 458 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 2: parks you can spend the night in at local lakes. 459 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,120 Speaker 2: Then one day she disappeared, and at the same time 460 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 2: a story began to come out that a woman dressed 461 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 2: as a man who was robbing banks and tyler this 462 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 2: town in East Texas. Now, because all the old FBI 463 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 2: agents who worked on the case had retired were moved 464 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 2: on to different positions, no one put it together. So 465 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 2: she robbed a guaranteed bank, she robbed another one, and 466 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 2: then she robbed the original guaranteed bank she robbed the 467 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,160 Speaker 2: first time, and ended it off to Mexico in her RV. 468 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 2: She was quickly followed by the cops, by the FBI. 469 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 2: It was the strangest posse you could imagine. And she 470 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 2: turned into a call to sac where neighbors got on 471 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 2: their front porches and were filming everything that was happening 472 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 2: with their video cam cam quarters that everybody had back then. 473 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 2: And she stood out on her front she opened the 474 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 2: door to her RV and I'll let you guess. I'll 475 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 2: let you read what happened next. It's just two. It's 476 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 2: not my writing that does justice to that scene. But 477 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 2: what happened is so moving and heartbreaking and wonderful. 478 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 1: And you said that's your favorite story. Is it because 479 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 1: of her? 480 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:53,160 Speaker 2: Yes, it's not because she was necessarily a good criminal, 481 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 2: so that played into it. It is how did she 482 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 2: pull it off time after time? But here was a 483 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 2: woman who was finally getting chance to bring back her 484 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 2: youths again and to you know, be a free spirit. 485 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 2: So many, not just women, but so many people as 486 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 2: they begin to age, they don't have this kind of 487 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 2: life to look forward to in retirement that they thought 488 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 2: they might have. It's not going to be easy street 489 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 2: for them. And she wanted to go out with one 490 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 2: last great hurrah. And you know, as her niece told me, 491 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 2: that ends the story. She goes, uh. I wouldn't wanted 492 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,360 Speaker 2: to say good for you, Peggy, Joe, good for you. 493 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: One of my kids is into true crime, and she 494 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:39,880 Speaker 1: does not like stories about female killers at all, female criminals. 495 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,439 Speaker 1: She doesn't want to watch them. She wasn't interested in 496 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 1: the Karen Reid story, any of these, you know, kind 497 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 1: of more high profile stories. And I finally said, why, 498 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 1: why don't you want to watch one where the woman 499 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: as a perpetrator, because we are constantly you know, reading 500 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: or watching stuff that's at words, you know, men killing women. 501 00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: And she said, because I don't want to sympathize with 502 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: the kill. And she said, I will no matter what, 503 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 1: sympathize with the woman, whether she's a victim or the killer. 504 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: And she said, I said, morally, that's a great idea. 505 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: So I thought that was really interesting because we're not 506 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: always skip as reporters or as you know, people who 507 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: are interested in true crime. We're not always searching around 508 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: for why Dennis Rader did what he did or Ted Bundy. 509 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:24,440 Speaker 1: You know, we're not looking, But I feel like we're 510 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: always looking for the reason women did stuff. 511 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 2: Well, there's not this backlash you would think at some 512 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:31,720 Speaker 2: point never happens. 513 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,640 Speaker 1: Do you have another story in that book that stands 514 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:37,879 Speaker 1: out to you. You had one about a nurse I 515 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: think of this character. 516 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 2: Her name was Vicky Don Jackson, that she lived in Nakona, 517 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 2: which is a town of about twelve hundred people in 518 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 2: North Texas. Now you know, you know all the big 519 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 2: time serial killers that have come out of Texas, Henry. 520 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: Lee, Lucas, Kenneth All McDuff. 521 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 2: Bigdoff, they were vicious men. Right. Well, here was a 522 00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 2: woman who had twenty six nurses uniforms neatly pressed in 523 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 2: her closet. She wanted to be Florence Nightingale. She took 524 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 2: her job very seriously. She was very devoted to her patients. 525 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 2: She cleaned them, brought them food, helped them to their 526 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 2: cars when they were being released from the hospital. Everybody, 527 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 2: I mean no one had a bad word to say 528 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,479 Speaker 2: about nurse VICKI until one night in nineteen ninety she 529 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 2: pulls out a syringe and fills it up with my 530 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 2: vacarium chloride, which is a medicine that can stop respiratory breathing. 531 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 2: And doctor choose it to get like if they need 532 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 2: to intimate a patient to get the tube down the 533 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 2: throat of a patient and then they can knock you know, 534 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 2: get them out of the stop the medicine which is 535 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 2: coming through the IV, and they're fine again. But she 536 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 2: was killing off patients. She killed off ten in the 537 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 2: in the last couple of months of two thousand and 538 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 2: seven or eight. I think then she killed off ten more, 539 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 2: and she might have killed off five more. That's in 540 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 2: a lot of members of the town. She worked the 541 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 2: night shift. She would get in her closet put on 542 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 2: and she told me this, you know, she was trying 543 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 2: to tell me that she was innocent. But I just 544 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 2: did a series of interviews with her, thinking at some 545 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 2: point she's going to explain why she did what she did. 546 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 2: And she would always, you know, call me mister Hollinsworth. 547 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 2: She would ask how I was doing, She asked about 548 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 2: my health. She was in county jail, so the rules 549 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 2: are a little different. If you're in the state prison, 550 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 2: you know, you get like thirty minutes with an inmate 551 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 2: and that's it. They throw you out. But if you 552 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 2: have a kind, kindly old sheriff, he'll let you sit 553 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 2: in the interview room day and night until something breaks. 554 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 2: So in December eleventh, two thousand, she would put on 555 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 2: one of these starched nurses uniforms. She would wash her 556 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 2: hair under the kitchen sink with Lady Clare that she 557 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 2: would buy that she would get at Walmart discount. She 558 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 2: would go buy the Dairy Queen, the one nice restaurant 559 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 2: in town, and she would order the same meal two tacos, dinner, salad, 560 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 2: rice and beans, and I see sweet. And she would 561 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 2: walk by people's tables and go, how are you, How 562 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 2: are you mister Stevens, how are you, miss Johnson? I mean, 563 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 2: it's a Florence nighting the countryfide Florence nightingale. And then 564 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 2: she would go murder these patients, and the doctors were 565 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 2: so bewildered they could not imagine this was crime. It was, 566 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 2: you know, as a cold winter. Old people were dying, 567 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 2: people were getting respiratory illnesses. This is just what happens 568 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:42,719 Speaker 2: in a small town hospital. Until someone found a tube 569 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 2: of my bacia and chloride in the trash looking for 570 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 2: an answer. There were people that would go to the 571 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 2: Dairy Queen and see her every night. There was one 572 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 2: man who would drive his riding lawnmower, his seers riding 573 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 2: lawnmower to the Dairy Queen. And I interviewed him and 574 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 2: I said, did you have any idea? He said, I'd 575 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 2: tell my wife every day after she got After Vicky 576 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 2: Don got arrested, How could someone be so good during 577 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 2: the day do these kind of killings at night? Well, 578 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 2: there was this uproar in town. Why was Vicky Don 579 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 2: killing these people? And I joined the upper you know, 580 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 2: I went up there and I would interview her as 581 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 2: she waited for trial, kept trying to figure out what 582 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 2: was going to break. I was using every skill I 583 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 2: could come up with, which obviously wasn't much because I 584 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 2: couldn't get her to confess to anything. But she would 585 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 2: say things occasionally. For instance, there was this one hundred 586 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 2: year old lady named Missus Jennings who would slap and 587 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 2: bite Vicky when she ever. She came up to take 588 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 2: care of her at the hospital, and Vicky had known her, 589 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 2: Vicky I learned since she was in high school. Since 590 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 2: Vicky was in high school, she took care of her 591 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 2: back then in a nursing home, and so here in 592 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 2: the last days of her life, Missus Jennings life the 593 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 2: widow Jennings people called her. Vicky let loose and murdered 594 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 2: her with a my vircarium and so by the time 595 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 2: I got to the story, it was known that she 596 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 2: had gotten after this woman, and I said, well, what 597 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,239 Speaker 2: did you think of her? Oh, mister Hollinsworth, I liked 598 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 2: her so so much. She was so kind to people. Well, 599 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 2: maybe not kind is the right word, and maybe she 600 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 2: could have been a little kinder to everything I had 601 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 2: done for her. And then I began to realize what 602 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 2: was going on, or what could have been going on, 603 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 2: which was here was in her teenage years, she was 604 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 2: ignored by all the other students. She was this wallflower. 605 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 2: She would come to the dairy queen dressed in what 606 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 2: she called western tops, you know, little tube tops, and 607 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 2: no one would let her drive around with them in 608 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 2: their car. So when she saw them years later in 609 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 2: the hospital with her taking care of them, here was 610 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 2: her chance and getting back at all the years of 611 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 2: being ignored were being made fun of. She even went 612 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 2: after an ex husband. The ex husband was having an affair, 613 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 2: was leaving Vicky, and so Vicky decided to when she 614 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 2: had the shot. When the husband's father came in to 615 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,760 Speaker 2: the hospital, she popped him with myva carre and chloride. 616 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 2: So all these people were dying. A guy that invited 617 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 2: asked one of Vicky's children out on a date, cussed 618 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 2: her and tried to ruin a reputation when she said no. 619 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 2: When the daughter said no, and Vicky never forgot it, 620 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 2: and years later she went after him when he came 621 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,439 Speaker 2: into the hospital as a patient. There was a girl 622 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 2: that went to the nightclub and she wore this black 623 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 2: dress that zipped up and down. And I called her 624 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,720 Speaker 2: one day and I said, did you know Vicky Jackson? 625 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 2: And she begins to cry and she says, no, I'm sorry. 626 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 2: I never knew her. I said, you graduated from high 627 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 2: school with her. She just assumed that Vicky went after 628 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 2: her because she was getting the attention with that black 629 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 2: dress with the zipper, and VICKI had never gotten the 630 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 2: same kind of attention. So you saw her beginning to 631 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 2: spiral down, and it became obvious that she was spiraling. 632 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 2: But I don't know it. Just you know, I'm sure 633 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 2: there are people that thought, well, good for her. We 634 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 2: always know this kind of woman who had never who ignore. 635 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 1: But do you see how we're both searching? You search 636 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 1: and I do too, particularly with female killers. You're looking 637 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 1: for a reason, and I don't look for a reason 638 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 1: for a lot of male killers. I just think, why 639 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 1: would this woman have done this? What happened? And I 640 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: end up doing stories on women. I've done several who 641 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 1: simply have psychopathy and there's no rhyme or reason for 642 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,880 Speaker 1: why they did this. But it's interesting that we go 643 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: to thinking about that, Okay, that's she was ignored and 644 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 1: now she's getting revenge. So I think that's interesting that 645 00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:58,839 Speaker 1: we're just always and I probably always will just kind 646 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: of say we've got to figure out what happened, and 647 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: then it becomes something like my kid says, it's some 648 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 1: kind of sympathetic thing where then you're almost rooting for 649 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:10,879 Speaker 1: the woman. I don't know, I find it, and I'm 650 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:12,799 Speaker 1: not agreeing or disagreeing with any of it. I just 651 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 1: think it's interesting. 652 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 2: You know, well, she definitely didn't have a fan club, 653 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 2: and you know, Nikono wasn't going to say Okay, we 654 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 2: forgive you. I mean, it was never going to be 655 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 2: anything like that. But I kept thinking, understand her, no 656 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 2: matter how much psychopathy she had, I understand her. 657 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 1: So one of the you know, the killer nurses, quote unquote, 658 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: the most famous one, did you look? And I don't 659 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:38,840 Speaker 1: know if this is mentioned in the book did you 660 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: look at Jane Toppin'? Okay, So from the eighteen hundredth 661 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 1: lady to probably the most famous nurse, they call him 662 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,840 Speaker 1: Angel of Mercy, which is quickly followed up with the 663 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 1: line they showed no mercy for their patients. She was 664 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 1: a private nurse, so she was able to get away 665 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 1: with a lot more. But she targeted people, you know, 666 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 1: who had personal she had personal issues with. She targeted 667 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 1: random patients. She you know, was moving from house to house. 668 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: But her motive, besides I think the number one motive 669 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,400 Speaker 1: was you know, you would think, oh, it's the revenge, 670 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,359 Speaker 1: or it's the money or whatever. It was rejection, you know, 671 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 1: but really it came down to she derived sexual gratification 672 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: from watching somebody die from a poison that she administered. 673 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,239 Speaker 1: So imagine that late eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundreds, she's 674 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 1: doing this. More than one hundred people was the claim 675 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 1: that she killed, and you know, just to think about that, 676 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,319 Speaker 1: and I mean there was proof because there were some 677 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,279 Speaker 1: patients who survived to observe she'd climb into bed with 678 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 1: these people, and she still was not executed. She was 679 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 1: committed to a mental health facility until she died, and 680 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:51,280 Speaker 1: I think she was in her eighties when she died. 681 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:55,879 Speaker 1: I mean even then, she's not hanged like somebody who 682 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 1: would have robbed a bank one time would have been 683 00:37:58,520 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: hanged a man. 684 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 2: Show you how significant a role these women had played 685 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,160 Speaker 2: in people's lives. One of the more unusual stories I 686 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,359 Speaker 2: wrote about was a prison band, and they came from 687 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:15,319 Speaker 2: the prison's women, the women's prenitentiary, the Gory Unit, and 688 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:19,320 Speaker 2: in the nineteen forties there was only one prison for women. 689 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 2: It was called the Gory Farm Gory State Farm, and 690 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 2: a woman there named Revel Childs decided she was going 691 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:31,520 Speaker 2: to start a band, just like the men had one. 692 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:33,879 Speaker 2: And she'd walk around the dormitory and say, we can 693 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 2: do one as good as the men. And they started 694 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 2: a band, and they basically became the Dixie Chicks of 695 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,480 Speaker 2: their day. They were on WBAP radio every Wednesday night, 696 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,400 Speaker 2: played in a show called a prison show called Behind 697 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,279 Speaker 2: the Walls. Back then, prison's offen had big music programs. 698 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 2: And then she was paroled. Others in the band were 699 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 2: paroled and they disappeared. They never they could have had careers. 700 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:01,760 Speaker 2: They wanted to become famous so that the governor would 701 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 2: like them, and they could get out of prison, so 702 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:08,759 Speaker 2: they became famous in order to disappear. To this day, 703 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,239 Speaker 2: you know, I couldn't find I found one, one or 704 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 2: two women. And this past week I wrote that story. 705 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,400 Speaker 2: I don't know how many years ago, but this past 706 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 2: week the phone rang and it was the sister of 707 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,280 Speaker 2: another of one of the performers, who had no idea 708 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 2: what had happened to her sister after she got out 709 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 2: of prison, just disappeared. And you know, you think history history, 710 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 2: need to remember the history never dies. There's no such 711 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:41,560 Speaker 2: thing as a story fading into the past. The past 712 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:42,560 Speaker 2: has never passed. 713 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:57,120 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 714 00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,239 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Sinner's All About the 715 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,440 Speaker 1: Ghost Club, All That Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and 716 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,719 Speaker 1: Don't Forget There are twelve seasons of my historical true 717 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:11,280 Speaker 1: crime podcast, Tenfold More Wicked right here in this podcast feed, 718 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,280 Speaker 1: scroll back and give them a listen if you haven't already. 719 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,200 Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producer 720 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:23,120 Speaker 1: is Alexis Amrosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This 721 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:27,360 Speaker 1: episode was mixed by John Bradley, Curtis Heath is our composer. 722 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 1: Artwork by Nick Toga, Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen 723 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:36,000 Speaker 1: Kilgariff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and 724 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:40,319 Speaker 1: Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more. 725 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:42,480 Speaker 1: And if you know of a historical crime that could 726 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:45,320 Speaker 1: use some attention from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, 727 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 1: email us at info at tenfoldmorewicked dot com. We'll also 728 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:55,840 Speaker 1: take your suggestions for true crime authors. For Wicked Words 729 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:01,399 Speaker 2: Was a number